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5 things we learned in 2023 · Project Podcast

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Hello and welcome to the APM Podcast, brought to you by The
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Chartered Body for the Project Profession here at the APM
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Podcast. It's become something of an
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annual tradition to finish the year with an episode that
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compiles some of our highlights of the past 12 months.
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In this episode we're continuing that tradition with a look back
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at our favourite moments from the podcast in 2023.
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It's been another action-packed year in which we've welcomed
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guests from across the international project management
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community. We kicked off 2023 with an
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episode on Bringing Empathy into the workplace, and since then
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we've covered topics ranging from the rise of artificial
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intelligence to the can do mindset of Icelandic project
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managers. But there have been a few
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episodes that really stood out to us, and which performed
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particularly well with listeners.
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Over the next 25 minutes, we'll share our top five lessons from
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the year in the form of short extracts from these episodes.
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So listen on to hear regular podcast host Emma Devita, editor
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of Project Journal, interviewing experts on everything from
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supporting introverts at work to why risks aren't necessarily
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always bad. Professor Bent Flubia is a world
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leading expert on mega projects. In March, he made his second
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appearance on the APM podcast in an episode called How Big Things
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Get Done, which is also the title of a book he published
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this year exploring the surprising factors behind every
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successful project. Here he is talking to Emma about
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the importance of thinking slow and acting fast.
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One of the messages that really stuck with me is this the
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central idea of think slow, act fast.
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Could you explain to listeners what this actually means?
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Some people would rebel against things slow because they think
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it means take a long time, and it doesn't necessarily mean
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that. It means that you need to slow
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down your thinking in accordance with the findings in behavioural
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economics. So you know Daniel Kahneman's
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book called Thinking Fast and Slow.
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It's about you have these two ways of thinking and one is our
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spontaneous, uh, way that we use as a fall back position, which
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is the the fast way. So we think fast and that gets
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us into a lot of trouble. So there's probably a good
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reason in evolutionary terms that we have this ability to
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think really fast, you know, but some things are not suited for
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that. And I would say that a big
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project is the kind of thing that is not suited for fast
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thinking, that you actually need to carefully consider what
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you're doing because the fact that it's big means that it has
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big consequences. And we've studied products very
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carefully and many people actually think the bigger the
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project you do, the more risky and difficult it is.
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And we find that's actually not, that's not the main problem.
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There's a bit of truth to that, but not much actually.
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The main thing is the longer it takes, the more risky it is and
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the higher risk of going terribly wrong.
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So it's actually time that is the killer for projects, not
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size. So that's why we say egg fest.
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So by adding fast you can actually reduce your risks
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enormously, especially you have been thinking slow first.
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So that's why we say the rhythm of success in projects is think
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slow, act fast. Why does thinking slow and
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acting fast not usually happen? Because we are programmed to not
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do this. We are hardwired from nature for
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whatever reason, probably very good revolutionary reasons.
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We have something called availability bias, that whatever
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pops into our brain 1st and makes itself available as a
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thought, and this could be a thought about a project or an
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idea for the project. We tend to take onto that and
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then disregard all sorts of other things.
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We actually kind of lose perspective because we already
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have a perspective, namely the first thought that came into our
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mind. This is very well documented
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again in behavioural science and behavioural economics that we
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have this and this is something to watch out for.
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And that's why we think first we just jump to the first thing,
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then we assume that this is all there is.
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That's an extremely strong cognitive bias we have.
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So that's what's happening in projects is that we quickly
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latch onto some idea, maybe even a specific technology that we're
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going to use for this project. And then that's all we see.
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What we see is all there is and we run with that.
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Instead of stepping back and saying, OK, now I have one idea.
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Now let me start to think about some other ideas.
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And we give very clear guidance in the book and and and and take
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the reader's hand and walk the reader through processes that
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you can use to step back and think more systematically about
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what are the alternatives here, What are the many other ways
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that we could do this? And then decide which of these
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ways are you going to use? One of our main means is to to
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ask why. We encourage anybody who's doing
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a project to 1st sit down and ask themselves or whoever is
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doing this project, why are you doing the project?
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Why? And you need to have a very good
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answer to that question before you start, so you actually know
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precisely and very well thought out what the reasons are that
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you are doing the project. Then after you know that you can
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start thinking backwards from that, that's really the end
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product you want to end up with. Then you work backwards through
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the Cans diagram to the left side of the diagram.
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And then you start thinking about how do I deliver the why
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and what's the best way to do that.
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That's a way to avoid falling into this trap of committing to
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a bad idea up front, which is very common.
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And if you do that, then you get the opposite of thinking slow,
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acting fast. You get think fast, act slow
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because you have. If you haven't thought out what
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you are going to do, then all sorts of problems are going to
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pop up when you can least afford it and when it's really going to
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slow you down, which is in the delivery phase.
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For our second lesson learned of the year, we turn to the topic
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of inclusivity. One less explored theme is how
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to make workplaces welcoming to introverts as well as
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extroverts. There is a misconception that
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project and programme managers are always extroverts, happy to
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speak up and assert themselves in meetings and comfortable
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presenting to large groups. The reality, however, is that
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there are many introverts working in the project
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profession who struggle with these preconceptions and have
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different, quieter methods of getting the job done.
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Emma spoke to a panel of introverts in May to find out
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more. What needs to change about the
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project profession and the way project teams work in order to
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allow introverts to thrive? Because our preference is to
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engage people in smaller groups or 1:00 to 1:00, that creates a
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really strong foundation for building trust with stakeholders
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because trust is built between individuals.
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And I think we are very good at that naturally of kind of
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creating that, that relationship, that more more
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intimate relationship with stakeholders, with clients,
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customers and so on. But I also think that if you're
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always that person who leads from the front, you might not
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always be aware of what happens behind you.
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And you know, if you're kind of the person that doesn't need to
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lead from default and you, you maybe have to kind of
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observation skills to pick up certain things that others may
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not. So you know, I think you know,
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we observe and see things, understand and kind of digest
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dynamics, understand the dynamics and then can kind of
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adapt ourselves, teams and others to to, you know, to take
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advantage of those dynamics. What needs to change to allow
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you to capitalise on your strengths at work?
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What advice or thoughts would you give to other project
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leaders or project managers about having introverts on their
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teams and giving them what they need to do the best job they
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can? Even though you know, extrovert
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versus introvert is not part necessarily of the being
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inclusive organisations and discussion right.
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Being inclusive organisation does not necessarily limit you
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to being inclusive to different genders or or neurodiverse
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people or whoever else it it simply means that you're
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creating environments where no matter what kind of person you
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are, you can be at your best. So, so you know continuing to
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invest into that and amplifying that you know will definitely
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help everyone including introverts.
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Claire what what? What strengths do you feel
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introverts bring to her team and how can there be better
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supported? I guess it's that that that
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diversity. So in terms of, you know, if
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you've got experts on the team or you've got, you know, male
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females, it's it's having that that balance and that diversity
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of thought, diversity of view. I guess the problem you
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sometimes get is that the introverts don't manage to get
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their points across and therefore you don't end up with
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that diversity of thought because you know the introvert
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isn't isn't putting that point across.
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Should it be that the person who's running that meeting be,
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you know, knowing of that and should therefore invite people
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they know to be kind of quieter than others to contribute?
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Would that help I? Think I think it's everybody's
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responsibility actually. I think, I think, you know, we
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we should all be be able to read the room and to understand what
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other people are doing, what their preferences are, you know,
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what they've got to contribute. And you know, if you've got
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people in a meeting or or in a workshop, they're there for a
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reason. And if they're not there for a
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reason, then they shouldn't be there at all because we've all
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got better things to be doing. I think it's upon everybody to
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make sure that everybody else is contributing.
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And you know it's it's upon me as an introvert to know when I'm
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being introverted but but equally I don't necessarily want
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somebody to go what do you have to say on the matter because
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then it's you know it's everybody head turning to stare
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at me which you know I will just go nothing thanks.
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So it's it's allowing allowing the introvert the time to think.
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Next, we turn to the topic of risk management.
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Risk is a word that is usually seen to have an exclusively
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negative meaning. And while it's essential that
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roject Rofessionals pay attention to the eventualities
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that could derail their projects, there is a growing
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school of thought that argues that opportunities as well as
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risks need to be a greater part of the risk management
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conversation. Peter Simon of AP, Ms Risk SIG
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was on hand to explain more. Are you suggesting that on a
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project as much attention should be given to the opportunities,
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and I'm thinking of those as the positive side of things, as to
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the risks and the threats, And if and if so, would that then
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shift the mindset or the energy on a project towards some more
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positive? I don't want to just think of
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projects as purely as costing money and and taking time, but
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all projects do have a budget. When things go wrong, they can
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go very very wrong. So something can cost twice as
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much as you anticipated or take twice as long.
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It's very unlikely for something to cost half as much as you
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thought it was going to be. I'll take half as long.
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So what that's what I mean by that is the it's a skew the term
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we'd use, it's a skewed distribution.
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Things can get a lot worse than they can get them.
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On the contrary, they can get a lot better.
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So that's one of the dilemmas. Do we spend time trying to find
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the little things that might happen when there's a lot more
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bigger things out there that if they happen, could destroy the
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project? So there is that dilemma.
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So should you put as much effort in?
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And the answer therefore is probably not.
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But don't ignore it because there might be using a metaphor,
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some low hanging fruit somewhere that you can pick and get, but
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but putting the same amount of effort in, Probably not.
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But also what tends to happen in projects.
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And you will be aware that projects go through a life cycle
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and a certain point in that life cycle the project gets signed
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off. And it doesn't matter if this is
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a an agile or an iterative life cycle.
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There's a point where we can decide to spend some money
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because we've got something we're going to do.
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What tends to happen is psychologically, and that you
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might have heard the term optimism bias.
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The good things that might happen tend to be put into our
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baseline. It's like saying it's going to
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be a sunny day every day. We assume that it's not on all
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the good things. We might be able to get that a
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little bit cheaper. So we put that in a base case
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and that happens a lot, especially when people want to
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get their project to go ahead for some reason.
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They've got to meet a hurdle of it's got to cost less than this.
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So it's got to be done in a shorter time than that or
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something. Which means if you've built in
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all those opportunities, and this is born out in the research
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that people do opportunity management right at the
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beginning, then things can only get worse.
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You know, if you put a plan together and it doesn't matter
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what it is, the schedule together and it's and it's based
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on 8 hours productivity every day doesn't matter what you're
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doing. It's been a sunny day every day,
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all the equipment arriving on time, all IT code working first
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time and people do that then it can.
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It can't get better than and that's what the dynamics would
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opportunity management. We grasp it too early.
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So what's your advice about mitigating that kind of optimism
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bias or unnatural proclivity towards opportunities?
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Understanding that you're doing it is one thing.
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What also then can overcome that if you do end up doing, and
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again you might have heard the term quantitative risk analysis
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where you do simulation models, then that exposes that.
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That will expose the fact that everything is very optimistic,
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but be aware you're doing it and maybe thinking just think it
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might not be a sunny day every day.
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A lot of that also comes down to and another word that gets used
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in risk management even though it's a commonly used term is is
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assumptions. Then what are we assuming?
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And you know you could say we it might be sunny every day or
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that's fine, but are you assuming it's going to be sunny
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every day? And if you are then it can only
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get worse. So sometimes think of what what
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are you assuming and whether you're over assuming things
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because it's the assumptions of the good things in that sense.
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The debate around agile versus waterfall methodologies is an
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Evergreen topic in project management.
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But not everyone agrees that project approaches can be neatly
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divided into these two camps. And others contend that agile,
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or rather agility, has been in evidence on projects for
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decades, if not centuries, rather than being a modern
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innovation. Picking up the debate on the APM
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podcast this year was veteran project manager Adrian Dooley.
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Agile came about at the turn of the Millennium.
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How has the concept of Agile changed since then since the
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Agile Manifesto came out, and how has that morphed into
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something for the world of project management to use?
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There's a perception that Agile started with the manifesto.
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If if we drop the word Agile for a moment and talk about agility,
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you know the ability to flex and be adaptable on your projects,
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that there are numerous examples and case studies going back to
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the the Pantheon in Rome in the 1st century through Christopher
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Renz and Paul's Cathedral, where people have had to stop,
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rethink, look again at the scope and head off in a slightly
17:04
different direction. That that's nothing new.
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So I think agility has all always been there.
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The only thing that started in 2001 was the hype.
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The Agile Manifesto crystallised that, perhaps, as I suggested,
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as a reaction to how the software industry had somewhat
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unthinkingly adopted so much stuff from construction which
17:30
wasn't necessarily relevant. But it was that manifesto that
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started in 2001 and rapidly became something that I believe
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it wasn't intended to be because of the hype.
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What did it become then? Almost like a cult.
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I'd agree with you and I probably would drop the word
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almost. I think yes, it's it has become
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a cult. One example of that is that
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agile has become binary. You know when I talked about
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agility and flexibility, you're talking about something which is
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a continuum. There are different degrees of
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agility, different degrees of flexibility, whereas agile has
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become binary. Sadly something I I do quite a
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bit is monitor all the conversations on social media
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about this and you keep getting these debates amongst people who
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are in the agile community saying, well that's agile,
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that's not agile, particularly when it comes to trying to scale
18:34
agile across an organisation. If if you look at this stuff on
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social media, for example on LinkedIn, you will find there is
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quite a battle between the camps that say safe the scale agile
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framework. Safe is not Agile and other
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people will say, well yes, this is it's scaled out of agile.
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You'll get people debating whether Scrum is Agile or not.
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That's a slightly different kind of argument, but there are these
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quite heated debates about what is Agile what is not Agile.
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It's become binary. And one of my observations is
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that because people can't quite pin down what Agile is, they
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resort to the easier thing of defining what it isn't.
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And that's where waterfall comes from.
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Because if we can't agree what Agile is, let's talk about what
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it isn't. We don't have a name for what?
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It isn't in the way that we have a name for Agile.
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So we need to create something an antonym for Agile and that's
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where the term waterfall comes from.
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And you will see some quite prominent and respected people
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will quote things about waterfall or the other term that
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they they commonly use is traditional project management.
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So there's this idea that there is this traditional project
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management, IE every project previous to 2001 followed this
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traditional approach and typically that is colloquially
20:07
called waterfall. Which is you sit down, you
20:11
define everything, you produce an immutable plan which can't
20:14
change, and then you start delivering according to that
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plan. Is, I say, a creation of people
20:22
who want to promote what they perceive as the opposite to
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that? Our final lesson learned comes
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from a podcast in which Emma was joined by a panel of women who
20:33
shared experience and advice on how best to deal with menopausal
20:37
symptoms at work and how to support colleagues going through
20:40
menopause. The guests explored why project
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work can present additional challenges to women going
20:45
through menopause and also considered practical tips for
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team leaders who want to help. Is there anything specifically
20:52
about project work that is trickier to manage when it comes
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to sort of also living with menopausal symptoms?
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I think the confidence issue is is a challenge and I think
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another thing with project work is certainly sort of where I am
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guess I do get to work flexibly, but I'm on the client side.
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I know if I was not on the client side, I would probably be
21:15
expected to be in the office much more on site particularly
21:20
because it's a construction project there would be that, but
21:23
also projects are not often that long in nature.
21:26
You may be moving on. So therefore you're then going
21:30
back and if you know symptoms can go on for you know seven
21:34
years on average. So you're then having to say all
21:38
against somebody else. So it's it's that that you with
21:42
projects and and the churn of people on projects, a lot of
21:45
people don't stay on big projects more than a couple of
21:48
years. So you are often having to have
21:50
the same conversation 18 months later.
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And I said if you're expected to go on site which a lot of people
21:58
are unless you speak up and then it's like well the spotlight's
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on you, why are you not doing that?
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Why do you get off the hook? And that's not a comfortable
22:06
conversation to have, is it? Sometimes?
22:08
Because you don't want to be the one standing out in the crowd of
22:12
everyone else that's going on site.
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But actually, sometimes you're far too hot to put on all that
22:17
high vis. Is it then just a matter of
22:21
being brave and doing it and having that conversation?
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It's also individual. I felt at times when I was going
22:29
through it, a lack of confidence and a poor night's sleep.
22:33
Everything else. I was probably the worst person
22:35
to advocate for myself because I probably would have chewed the
22:38
head off and you know, just have pure tiredness.
22:43
So I think that's why it's not just menopausal or
22:46
postmenopausal women. We all have to advocate because
22:50
you know, we're all going to go through it collectively because
22:53
it's it's not. You're not always in the best
22:55
position with the greatest amount of confidence to speak up
22:59
for yourself in that moment when you're challenged and you've
23:02
got, you know, 12 men looking at you and the only person in the
23:05
room or any woman in the room, it's a little bit like, oh, I
23:08
don't really want to tell you all of that right now.
23:12
What advice would you give to if you're in a project and project
23:16
manager, as a team leader, wants to do the right thing and is
23:20
perhaps thinking about these issues for the first time?
23:22
Rachel. I've asked them to think about
23:24
it. What is helpful for them to do?
23:27
What is it about creating particular kind of culture?
23:30
Is it about the practical things?
23:31
Is it about the language you use when talking about it?
23:36
I think it's down to company culture and about talking about
23:41
all sorts of medical health issues from mental well-being.
23:45
So if we keep bringing all of these up, I think it's about
23:49
culture. There's practical things here on
23:51
the mine in every lady's toilet, says sanitaryware available a
23:57
variety to you. So if you have an accident, you
24:01
don't have to worry and go searching for another female to
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ask if she's got anything. It's there.
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Simple little hacks like that from a practical perspective,
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but ultimately it's culture so that you've you've feel you can
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speak up without been embarrassed about something that
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actually is very normal. That's it for our roundup of the
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year's highlights. There were many more insights we
24:31
didn't have time to feature here, so why not go back and
24:34
delve into our back catalogue from 2020 all the way up to the
24:37
present? We also want to hear your views.
24:40
What did you learn on the APM Podcast in 2023, and is there a
24:44
topic you'd like to hear a tackle in 2024?
24:46
We're always keen to hear your thoughts at 8:00 PM Podcast at
24:50
thinkpublishing.co.uk. If you've enjoyed the content
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we've put out this year, please leave us a review wherever you
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get your podcasts. Thanks to all our listeners for
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your continued support and we look forward to bringing you
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more episodes in the new Year. This podcast has been brought to
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you by APM, the Chartered Body for the project profession.
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Find out more at Amorg UK.