Latest / Under The Fur / She Traded London for the Wild with Kelly
Transcript
- speaker-0: This episode of Under the Fur, we are joined by Kelly, who has a really fun background. She grew up in the UK and then moved to South Africa to be a safari guide for the Big Five, which I think is amazing. And also now comes back to the UK dog sits while setting up her dog behavior company, which I'd love to hear about. But first I want to know how you ended up in South Africa. speaker-1: I'd love to tell you! It's an interesting one. basically went on holiday ⁓ in 2003. ⁓ It got under my skin. If you've ever been to South Africa or Africa, it really does get under your skin. speaker-0: Not under the fur. Under under the fur? speaker-1: And under the fern. And I returned in 2008 and I decided to go for ⁓ fun, just to do some learning. I love learning. I love nature in 2011. And I was hooked. Yeah. So I came back. The last job I was at, was with the Met Police as a crime analyst. I returned to my desk with my Excel spreadsheets and I stuck out the London Olympics in 2012. And then off I went and I slowly over the years, speaker-0: Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, analyst, Excel sheets. Well, also that sounds fun, but maybe a bit office-y. speaker-1: It was pretty officey. It was mostly officey. I've always been outdoorsy. I've always been around animals. I've always enjoyed camping. So it was sort of a, it was a, it was a bold step. moved there alone. Yeah. To a friend. speaker-0: Yeah. from Office Excel Sheets and Crime. That wasn't fun? It's your brain not. speaker-1: It was okay. He used your brain. I'd sometimes used to go out on ride alongs. That's cool. Yeah. I did some of the social media for the police. So it wasn't bad. speaker-0: Okay. And then you were like, ⁓ screw it. I'm going to South Africa. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. Did you have a plan? No, no plan. Got on a plane with a rucksack. And what did you do when you arrived? speaker-1: Pretty much. ⁓ I sent lots and lots and lots of emails, lots and lots of CVs, basically saying, hello, I'm a newly qualified field guide. Can I come and work for you? 2011, I did three months, in Salati up near the Kruger. Yeah. I did some walking qualifications. So big five dangerous game on foot. Yes. Then I, ⁓ did two months, well, not quite two months horseback guiding in big five. Yeah. ⁓ so I was. speaker-0: So when had you qualified as speaker-1: Fresh out the tin. I had no experience at all. speaker-0: doesn't sound like a lot of training for what you're dealing with. Like if a lion stalking to me, which actually happened to me once. Yeah. And also got charged by an elephant in most terrifying. ⁓ I would like someone with more than a few months training, but you're not out on your own, I assume. speaker-1: It wasn't. No it. You were. ⁓ The way it works is I ⁓ was the last course that did for vehicle-based guiding. I the last course in South Africa that did it in 60 days. ⁓ Is vehicle-based? ⁓ Walking is different. It's long and it's much more ⁓ detailed. speaker-0: 60 day Okay. speaker-1: difficult to qualify as a child's guide. So no, I wouldn't have been walking you on foot on my own after 60 days. Definitely not. It's actually, it's very, very comprehensive training. Yeah. Since I've been around, it's got increasingly comprehensive. ⁓ speaker-0: Even in the vehicles, like the elephant that I just mentioned, God bless him. We were in the vehicles and he charged at the vehicle and I was with a bunch of girls. were on a vet course there and we were all like, ha ha ha. And the guide was like, shut the hell up. And we were like, yeah. And he goes. now, shut the hell up now. we were like, but you said we were safe in the vehicles because you said they didn't see it. Like people that it just blends in or something. I don't know what the words were. And he was like, shut the hell up, stay still. And he had been doing it a long time though. So we did our faith in him and he said, if you, if you move, he's going to chase us. So we had to just stay there. And ⁓ my God, this elephant left to the last second to pull back. were terrified. So not so safe in the vehicles. speaker-1: No, you're surrounded by wild animals. You're as safe as you can be surrounded by wild animals. Yeah. I don't know what else to tell you. speaker-0: Okay, tell me more, more about the training. speaker-1: It's comprehensive. The walking is a different, is a very different ballgame. We do briefings. I could do you a briefing now if you wanted to hear one, I can still do it without thinking about them, but it gets very serious very quickly when you're on for the short version is hi everyone. Welcome. The most important thing about Safari is it's your experience. Don't be afraid of asking questions. It's your time and it's your, it's your moment. And please don't stand up in the vehicles at any time. Please keep your arms and your legs in the vehicles. speaker-0: Let's have the short version of the. speaker-1: lots of the thorns and bushes, you know, they can scratch you. Please make sure all mobile phones are switched off. If anyone's got any questions, please, if we're in a sighting, just keep your voices down. And there's a few other bits of pieces that I haven't done for while, but that's how I would do a vehicle briefing. Walking, it's not a sing-song-y. It's very much, okay, this is serious. You need to walk in single file. No talking, arms length apart. stay behind the rifle at all times, listen to my instructions. Do you understand? speaker-0: you walking with a rifle? ⁓ god. Yeah. I don't know why thought you wouldn't be. speaker-1: Yes. course you are. And I'm normally, you know, I'm normally, you know, sing songy and let's have fun and all the rest of it, but it's a different ball game. Right. speaker-0: So what's the scariest thing that's happened on a walking? speaker-1: ⁓ scariest thing that's happened on a walk in Safari. ⁓ I've got a lot of respectful elephants. Yep. ⁓ very new to my, when I was very new to the bush, ⁓ my vehicle would not start. ⁓ I think I was only guiding three or four months. Yeah. ⁓ my vehicle wouldn't start. ⁓ and there was some elephants that were far and there was, there was nowhere to go. ⁓ and the herd came around the vehicle and I said to everyone just sit as they did to you, sit very still, do not move, do not speak. I think I was probably more concerned as you've just demonstrated, I was probably more concerned than they were because they didn't really understand the risk that was involved. speaker-0: We just put so much faith in people. We're like, ⁓ we're fine. We're safe. People do this all the time. speaker-1: The biggest thing I was, I was trying to sound calm. Yeah. I got away with it. Apparently I discovered afterwards, but as it turned out, someone actually came with a vehicle. I just managed to get a call on the radio that the vehicles wasn't working and they actually had to come and ⁓ assist or suggest the elephants went to an alternative location. But yeah, out of everything out there, I've got a lot of, I give elephants lots of space and I'm not going to lie as I've got older. ⁓ speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: started giving them even more space. Because what's the phrase? You go to the barbershop long enough you're going to end up getting a haircut. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah, true. Haircuts an interesting way to compare it, but yes. speaker-1: Yeah, and people do get complacent. You need to really respect the bush. speaker-0: Is it true that in Kruger there's loads of elephants that have evolved without tusks now? speaker-1: Yes. In, various locations, not, I don't know about loads. but yes, it happens. African elephants, males and females have tusks, Indian elephants, only the males have tusks, I believe. ⁓ and they're, I think what's happening, there's the gene pool of big tuskers is, ⁓ decreasing because lots of them have been hunted. ⁓ those genes aren't getting passed on. There's actually an elephant. ⁓ I've done some work with Wild Earth TV and he's very well known on Wild Earth TV called, ⁓ Wonton who was up in El Dono in Kenya. He actually died ⁓ about a month ago. I think it was now stunning, stunning big tusker. ⁓ he was not poached. died of natural causes, but what's happening is people are taking the big tuskers out of the gene pool. ⁓ so those big tuskers aren't coming through and also Females with tusks, they're being removed from the gene pool. It's not, don't think it's, nature isn't going, ⁓ we're not going to develop tusks, but the more... speaker-0: It's genetic pressure though. The evolution pressure. Absolutely. Our hunting. speaker-1: Yeah. And sometimes you get, ⁓ tuskless males. Wow. does happen. I've met a tuskless male before, ⁓ that's more of a genetic this, you know, abnormality. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, there's an increasing number of elephants without tusks. Wow. speaker-0: Sad. Do they still do the elephant culls? speaker-1: ⁓ in not for a while, when did they stop in Kruger? ⁓ this was in one of my exams. I've done lots of. speaker-0: You had an exam on it. speaker-1: ETs don't quote me on it. They haven't culled since then. There is lots of talk in various reserves at the moment of needing to reintroduce culling. I must admit my perspective. speaker-0: the borders and let them do their natural migration. That would my suggestion. speaker-1: would be really nice. That would be excellent. speaker-0: Because I remember looking at it before and their migration route is enormous. Like they don't get to the boundary of South Africa and go, no, can't cross there anymore. They used to have the whole of Africa to be able to walk up. if they don't have it, there's a lot of environmental damage, isn't there, from elephants? speaker-1: Everything says. Yeah, lots. It's ultimately, I'm not going to lie, I'm obviously an animal person, I'm a conservationist, I'm soft, I'm soft with dogs, I'm soft with nature, all the rest of it. But some of my perspectives have not toughened slightly, ⁓ but ultimately humans have broken stuff. We've made a proper We're terrible. Yeah, we've made a proper mess. ⁓ And it has to be managed realistically. ⁓ Trophy hunting is a very sensitive subject. ⁓ I would not, I don't care if anyone out there is a trophy hunter. I don't want dinner with you. I don't really want to be a part of your life. That's fine. Yeah. But ⁓ there may be a place for trophy hunting in conservation. There's huge swathes of areas that are not suitable for photographic safaris that you can't get vehicles into. And if those areas are not managed and do not pay. speaker-0: to listen to the podcast anyway, so that's fine. speaker-1: The game will be poached and the areas will be lost. speaker-0: So, as in like those animals are not going to survive anyway, may as well get some money out of the trophy hunters. speaker-1: Quite possibly. Exactly. it's it's it gives me goosebumps. No, I don't. speaker-0: still don't want the trophy hunters to get what they want. And I think there's probably more humane ways of managing it. mean, color is never going to be nice. Like look at the badger culling. There's ridiculous. The science is ridiculous. It doesn't bloody work. ⁓ but still, ⁓ you know, until recently there's just been badger culling. speaker-1: It's a really difficult one. I've made a proper mess everywhere. speaker-0: How dare you? Like how dare you say these badgers can't live here and we're going to call you? Yeah, humans suck. speaker-1: Big time. We suck. Big time. Yeah. speaker-0: I saw a leopard when I was in South Africa and it was the most gracious thing I have ever seen. And they're quite scarce now, they? Because they hunted so much, they hide away. Is that right? So where I was, apparently the farmers had like taken a rifle to a lot of them. So now they were very elusive. speaker-1: where you are. Yes, yeah. See where I am, we've got them walking around town. ⁓ speaker-0: Wow, I should have gone there. ⁓ no, was just like, we hadn't seen one the whole time. And then I just happened to look up and it was outlined like a silhouette on the horizon. It was just up on a ridge somewhere. It was so beautiful. speaker-1: default. None of it. I was going to say leopards never get old, but none of it ever gets old. It's how I've ended up on such a bizarre career path. Yeah. was born in Epsom. ⁓ now I actually posted on my Instagram account, my field guide account. There was a giraffe in my front garden yesterday. Big difference. ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ So maybe at the end of this podcast, we're be friends and can come stay with you. speaker-1: It's a completely different life. It's very, very special. speaker-0: And so how we actually got in contact with each other is because you're about to dog sit a client of mine and she told me all about you. And I thought this is actually really fascinating. I'd love to have her on chat. And so you come back to visit your dad, but to get somewhere to stay, make a little bit of money, you dog sit along the way. speaker-1: I do. This is actually the first summer I've tried it here. ⁓ wow. It's the first time I've tried it. It's a new theory. Yeah. I may do it again. I've actually today come out of three gorgeous little Yorkshire terriers. ⁓ stunning sunny little dogs. I've had a couple of not so stunning ⁓ scenarios that have happened. I'm actually I've been surprised by some of the things I've heard and seen since I've been here over the summer. ⁓ Such as ⁓ people, ⁓ how can I phrase it? 15 year old shouldn't be doing dog walking and dog sitting. It's really not a good idea. I was in a very, very dubious situation and I'm a qualified certified behavior expert. Yes. speaker-0: such as 15 year olds. you mentioned to me and you were dog sitting at quite a scary aggressive dog. speaker-1: And it was, it was a very, it wasn't, it was the situation. wasn't the dog's fault. It wasn't necessarily aggressive. It just wasn't a good situation to be in. and the people, no, I'm just going to be honest on this podcast. I'm quite surprised that people are willing to just say, Hey, come and stay in my house for free and you can watch my TV and look after my dogs. I'm really surprised. Yeah. speaker-0: What checks did they do on you prior to letting you in there? speaker-1: I was with another girl for 11 days. She asked for references. sent her certifications, behavior certifications, my insurance, my listings on the PPG website. I sent her my website. I sent her references from other and good. I was delighted she asked. if something had gone wrong, it would have been my business name and my reputation on the line. It's a massive responsibility. But I cannot believe I saw someone the other day on some site. Can someone come and look after my nine bald terriers in exchange for accommodation? live in a really nice house. speaker-0: Nine bull terriers? Yes! Why do they have nine bull terriers? speaker-1: No I did. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I'm speaker-0: They may be desperate and maybe that they cannot get anyone to look after their nine bolt areas. That's a lot of work. speaker-1: It is a lot of work for a... I wouldn't... speaker-0: I would, my baby's not staying with anyone. When I go away, my nurses look after her. and sometimes she hangs out at my clinic and everyone she's got like a lot of aunties, but absolutely no way is someone I've never met before coming into my house and looking after my furry child. speaker-1: And people's know, I agree. And swapping and you know, suppose everyone's, everyone's got their reasons. Everyone's different. I try really hard not to be judgmental. Yeah. ⁓ but you know, I'm, doing paid sitting and you're paying me to keep your dog safe. That's what I'm there for. Absolutely. I'm going to go and explore the area and hopefully remember to feed the dog. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm actually really surprised. know. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ South Africa has, ⁓ it's coming, but somewhat a different understanding and mentality towards animal care on lots of ⁓ areas for various different reasons that I often understand. ⁓ But I'm, yeah, I've been quite surprised. speaker-0: I think there's some websites now that you can sign up to walk somebody else's dog. speaker-1: I actually, one of them is called Borrow My Doggy. Yes! speaker-0: That's it. the idea actually is lovely. It's beautiful. If you don't have a dog or you can't have a dog, we get to walk to someone else's. But ⁓ hopefully that's vetted very well because if someone with no dog experience, actually literally no dog experience is my main thing. It's like you can't read doggy body language and you maybe not experienced difficulties with dogs and things and they might take out a slightly difficult dog. How is that going to end? speaker-1: It often badly. Yeah. It, it, it makes me stutter. I've been so, I've been so surprised about, actually want to, ⁓ only bar, my doggy friend that I met when I was actually here a couple of years ago, actually became a client of mine and we're very, close friends now. And we met in a field first time and, I, you know, I showed her my website and again, I'm happy to share this information. I want people to ask this information, but yeah, I've been quite shocked by some of the attitudes I've seen while I've been digging around in pet care this summer. speaker-0: Walking actually is a big one that we often talk about ⁓ as sort of vets and vet nurses because, ⁓ when we, as vets and vet nurses, we're extremely good at animal behavior and reading cues and knowing when to put yourself into a situation and not. ⁓ And I was really, really saddened by a few stories a few years ago of dog walkers actually being really seriously hurt. and even killed by walking what becomes a pack of dogs. And one of the situations I remember reading about was a dog had attacked another dog in that pack, a large dog. And the poor dog walker had thought, I need to stop this fight and protect the dog. And actually when I spoke about it with some colleagues, we were like, no way we're putting our hands in that. Absolutely not. Cause dogs will stop fighting. This is the thing. Dogs will stop fighting. ⁓ but if you get in there, you can get really, really hurt. And that poor lady lost her life. ⁓ I don't know her history actually. And, and like, I don't know what behavioral trainer, whatever she had, but it was just something we thought we decided we would talk about and was like, how much training do they have? How much experience do they have? Do they know what to do in bad situations? We're trained what to do? We're trained how to deescalate dogs. We In the vet clinic we never cross dogs past each other because we don't know how they will react and what will respond so we don't put ourselves in a situation where dogs can fight. If you are walking six dogs and a couple of them decide to have a scrap you don't know what's going to happen if you put your body in there. And it scares me. speaker-1: It scares me. I don't really know a solution to this. As you know, I've seen there's so many dogs in this country. don't know the numbers. And people, you know, they need help to care for their pets appropriately. ⁓ But it really frightens me. I had two little Yorkshire Terriers before this. The only time I would take them out, they woke me up at stupid o'clock anyway. But I would take them out at six o'clock in the morning. I would do a 20 minute loop. A for heat, but B for safety. They're someone else's tiny Yorkshire terriers. It takes one awfully dog and they're gone. I started getting, there was a cat. I started getting defensive. I was thinking, ⁓ is that cat going to be all right with them? But it, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be a dog walker if you paid me. Not a chance. speaker-0: Yeah. It's really changed now as well. was just earlier today talking about this with someone. People don't have a lot of patience for the behavior of other dogs. So they sort of expect them all to be very uniformly behaved, have perfect recall and ⁓ really do as you would expect them to do. But actually they're dogs. They're dogs. They're going to do doggy things. And sometimes they're not going to recall. And sometimes they are going to bark at another dog. And sometimes they will be a dog fight. And guess what? They just get over it as long as they haven't harmed each other too badly. Sort of get over it and move on. But then you've got people, I hear about it all the time, screaming at each other about their dogs. You should have recalled your dog. My dog is nervous. And like, it's really anxiety provoking for a of people to walk dogs now. speaker-1: I wouldn't and three days, I didn't take them out. There was three of these little Yorkshire terriers. They were happy. I watched their behavior. They were calm. They didn't need to go out. To me, it's an education thing. Not all dogs enjoy walks. It's not appropriate for all dogs. There are other ways, especially in this heat. There's other ways to fulfill needs and all the rest of it. don't need a half an hour march around the block. speaker-0: But we've been trying to educate people that actually no marching dogs around isn't the thing. And ⁓ three hour long walks is not the thing. Sniffing. Sniffing is what dogs want to do. That's how they get their information. That's how they interact with their environment. They don't actually like, I've done so much work with stray animals in various countries, in India, in China, in like Egypt and stray dogs chill out. They chill out on the side of the road. They are not running around a forest for three hours. They're hanging out with their mates on side of the road. speaker-1: I'm They're my little scabby street dogs. I call them little scabby street dogs in South Africa. I also see many. speaker-0: They just chill out. Yeah. They're going a little wander down the street. Yeah. is wild. speaker-1: Yeah ⁓ I totally agree and it's... speaker-0: We perceive they want and what they actually need. speaker-1: Sometimes they might want something different, but because people don't understand the body language or different personalities or different days, I was going to say sometimes I might want to go for a jog, but that's probably a lie. speaker-0: I never, I hate running. I'm really sporty, but I bloody hate running. speaker-1: But you know, some days when I was shitting, some days I really felt like it, some days I didn't. They're all so individual, you know, and it's knowing your pet, it's knowing the species, it's knowing the, you know, the breed requirements. it also depends on what mood they're in. It's, there's so much to it. And you know, the whole, I feel bad saying this, the whole dog walking phenomenon. What my dog every day at 11 o'clock? He might not fancy it today. speaker-0: But then what's the solution? Like I understand people want dogs and they have to go to work. And so they, they don't want their dog stuck indoors all day. And they are told, these people are told you can't have a dog if you leave it indoors for eight hours. I'll tell you, my Akitas didn't give a crap if they were left for eight hours on their own. Like they were fine because they had a lovely walk in the morning, a lovely walk in the evening and they really didn't care. speaker-1: But they're getting... speaker-0: But people are told if you're gonna get a dog and you walk and you work in an office, you must get someone to walk them in the middle of the day. speaker-1: depends on the dog. I think it's maybe education and understanding is almost going back around again. It's the next level. It's like the next level of understanding of anything. used to be in the 60s, people would just open the door and let them run around. And then they started shutting them in. And now we've swung to, ⁓ they've got to go out. And then maybe we'll come back around again and work. Some dogs do, but some dogs don't. So how do we get to that next level of understanding of people knowing what's right for that dog in that moment at that time. It's difficult. I don't have an answer. speaker-0: So tell us about your company. My company. speaker-1: I actually studied for a dog, Sash Pants. It's a long story behind that, but I haven't seen her for a while through no fault of our own. She struggled. Covid puppy in South Africa, we fostered, two came in, two went out. Two came in, one went down with Pavo. Within three days, the other one didn't. Short version. My wonderful friend, Dr. Myra saved the Pavo puppy. Pavo puppy now lives with Dr. Myra and she's called Lucy and Sash stayed with us. She was over aroused. She couldn't settle. She used to run around woofing. She was just a high energy, drive. I grew up with dogs. I thought I knew how to help her. I was doing activities and I was doing this and I was doing puzzles and I was doing walks and I was doing training and she was just getting worse and worse. So I found a behaviorist and it turned out I didn't know what I was doing. I did, I was doing what I thought I Googled and I read a couple of books and I thought, right, this is what you do. ⁓ And I was incorrect. So I thought, I know, I'm going to learn how to do this properly. So I studied for fun because I like learning. I've done lots of guiding and wildlife qualifications. Time to swap. was going to do my Fugata Assessors qualification to assess guides, but I was reading acronyms and I thought, you know what, there's enough assessors out there. So I swung and it's a company called ⁓ Cope International Center of Applied Pathology. And I studied through them and it was because I wanted to learn. I wanted to understand. I wanted to help Sash ⁓ and I'm a go big or go home kind of girl. So I studied and as I was coming to the end of my studies, I was doing some case studies and I would sort of dither around on Facebook and things and know, doggy stuff and you know, I'd look at things and think, ⁓ what would I do in that situation? And I explained to... someone was using shock collars on their dog and I explained how it worked, why it worked and what possible outcomes there could be of it. And it was just one line and she said, I had no idea. I will never do that again. And I thought, hold on a minute. Cause I wasn't intending on practicing. I just wanted to do it cause I was interested and I wanted to help Sash. And I thought, hold on. That's One person that's learned one thing that's going to help their dog. Yeah. So I created Animal Effect, Emotion, Animal Emotion, that's what my business is called. And my objective is I want to work virtually, intentionally, because I personally believe that virtual behavior consultations can sometimes be more beneficial than in person. ⁓ And I want to help all the dogs and all the families in all the world. Yeah. speaker-0: Me too! speaker-1: lofty, lofty ⁓ intentions. And it's, when it works, it's really, really fulfilling. But it's, to me, it's, it's about education. It's about understanding. And I'm realizing that there are, there's so much information out there that is getting, it's getting better, but there's also lots of very shouty people out there that shout very loudly. ⁓ with information and advice that I wouldn't support for want of a better phrase. speaker-0: I think we should also just talk a little about the shot collars. So they should be banned now in the UK. I actually need to double check. It was going through parliament. But it is, they are still worked a lot for like bite work. They use them. ⁓ Probably just mallies now for the shot collars. But there's a of people watching this. I don't know if they would be using shot collars or not. What is it about shot collars? speaker-1: To be honest, it's, I've, I've gone backwards and forwards on the whole. It's, it's rife. The, the, the big debates on aversive tools and force free is absolutely rife. It's actually incredibly dangerous because I'm finding what I'm seeing is. Guardians are getting so confused and there's so much backbiting and infighting between the sides of the force free and the shot collars. ⁓ that is actually doing damage to the behavior world in my opinion. I'm a force-free behaviorist. I choose not to use aversive tools when I work with dogs. But I'm almost at the point. I'm going to talk, I'm going to demonstrate, I'm going to show my work and I'm not going to be an asset. speaker-0: consequences of using aversive tools to train a dog. speaker-1: ⁓ It's a band aid. It's like... You've got a crack in the dam and you put a little bit duct tape down it and it's going to hold it for a little bit. But ultimately the dam's going to break and it's going to overflow and it's going to make a real mess. In my opinion, corrections do stop behaviors. A hundred percent. If you smack it, if a dog's barking at something and you smack it enough times, it's going to stop barking. Yeah. It will stop barking. It's quick. It's effective. ⁓ But ultimately, it's not kind. Yep. And you haven't addressed what's going on that's causing that bark in the first place. Aggression is a classic, classic example. you've got... ⁓ Jesus. Yeah, 100%. Or even if chalk collars, corrections. ⁓ it's horrendous. I won't allude to too much, but recently I was... speaker-0: People are using shot collars for aggression. and say, don't hit someone, bam, I'll hit you to teach you a lesson. speaker-1: Yeah. And it might stop the behaviour, but you haven't resolved... The emotion that's causing the behaviour is still there. And one thing I often say, I work closely with Four Ways Veterinary Hospital in South Africa, depending on what paper you read, I know I don't need to tell you this, high amounts of behaviour concerns are caused by physical or medical problems. speaker-0: No, the behavior is still there. Yeah. mean, ⁓ one of my friends, she's a veterinary behaviorist. She's, she's very good. Pharmacological knowledge is out of this world. I regularly text her for help on that. yeah. And she's, yeah, she's doing a lot of work, but, one of the things that she says is, is almost always a, an underlying medical problem for a dog that suddenly becomes aggressive. So dogs are not just aggressive. There's usually something wrong and you need to investigate it. So ⁓ her thing is before you come to me, go to your vet, get a clinical examination, get a urine test, a blood test or whatever. And I can't tell you the number of times I found like an orthopedic condition or something. Yeah, one of my lovely clients had the terrier that suddenly become aggressive. She came in and I was like, her hips are flapping in the breeze. This is a really bad case of hip dysplasia. She's in pain. That's where that's come from. speaker-1: Stick a shock collar on it, it'll stop being aggressive. speaker-0: No, I just thought, I don't know how I'm so naive. I'm a vet. And I should have known this. I thought it was just used for like recall and stuff. speaker-1: No, it can be used for all sorts of, any, any people will correct a dog for, for anything you like get, getting them into hill positions or corrections for barking or, and, it also depends. speaker-0: Things that could just be done with a gravy bone. speaker-1: Absolutely. Two or three gravy bones and you're A for away. But it is slower and it does take more work and you do have to think about it harder. But maybe that there's all sorts of statements from veterinary associations in the States and but it's actually quite weak of me, but I try not to stick my nose in it too much because it's actually quite toxic. It's really quite toxic out there. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. think the thing is that you don't come across as a weak person. ⁓ I'm certainly not a weak person. We probably will stick our oar in when we want to and when we need to. But in some cases, particularly with online stuff now, the amount of abuse that you get is horrendous. And ⁓ I know me personally, so I do a lot of social media. ⁓ And sometimes I've posted something that either has been interpreted in the wrong way, which is okay, ⁓ or has been interpreted in the right way by the wrong people. And they are incessant with their comments and the things that they say about you. They don't care how you feel when you read these comments. And what I find is if I read it when I'm like this and I'm fine and I'm relaxed, I'm like, this doesn't affect me at all. They're generally not the kind of people that I care who have their opinion of me. But if I was perhaps a bit tired or a little stressed or I'd had a bad day at work or I'd had a difficult day with my kids or something like that. And then I read those comments. It's like devastating. I think it's okay to say when you're up for it and when you're available for the fights and when you're not, because at the end of the day, you do need to protect yourself. speaker-1: It's so toxic. I've also learned as well along the way that And I do it very occasionally, but very occasionally. I did do it quite a lot. There's horrendous. And sometimes if I get chance, that first comment on that one Facebook post that made me decide to decide to help all the families and all the dogs all over the world. One time it might make a difference. Most of the time, people don't want to hear that they're wrong. People don't want to, if someone believes that this is the right way to do something, me online saying, I disagree. It's not going to make any difference. It's a waste of energy. It's a waste of breath. So I rather, I want to, I want to, and it's also very difficult to show my work a lot of the time. I've also stopped. did have a, I had an aggression case. ⁓ they said I could post, they said I could share names and photos and details and I spent ages editing stuff and putting it together, but it just felt it. speaker-0: No, Need a relationship with somebody. speaker-1: me. I didn't want to do it. you, if you've, if your dog is having behavior concerns, it's, it's embarrassing. It makes you feel silly. It makes you feel like you're not excelling as a, as a guardian and you're doing something wrong. You're not, it's, it's, it's I've been there. Sasha used to run around woofing all the time. I felt like an absolute idiot. It makes you feel, it makes you feel bad. So I've almost, but other people, will show a dog spinning and lunging and then they do whatever they do to it for five minutes and within 20 minutes it stopped barking and that's very easy to show. I do things slowly, do things kindly, I do things gently and it often looks really, really boring. And I'm going to be okay with that. I'm not placing dogs in situations that make them uncomfortable. If you've got a dog losing its mind, it's not happy. It's, you know, I'm sure you, you, it's just not nice. You wouldn't want to, you know, if you're doing something that's you need to do medically, that is uncomfortable for a dog, it makes you uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable. It's, it's not a nice thing to show yet. Emotionally, dogs feel those same things and they, and they cringe and they cry and they squeak and they woof and they cower. And some people put that online and then say, look, it's not doing it anymore. great. It's a really difficult one. It is, it's not very nice, but it's exciting. you want to use it? exciting, engaging. I don't know what I'd call it, but it gets clicks. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, your business about clicks, right? You just find some people, help them. So what's the future now? Are we still going to be showing lions and tigers and bears? speaker-1: Exactly. do, I do a little bit of that. I do some guiding, I do some online ⁓ nature narration as well. also do ⁓ some bits and pieces with my partner. He's an astronomy, does night sky safaris, but I really want to grow the dog stuff. I find it so fulfilling. you know, the, when someone, you know, they come back to you and they say, ⁓ I never, I never would have thought or speaker-0: think there's speaker-1: I couldn't believe how much or it's so nice that they are now, you know, all these things. It just brings me so much joy and it takes work and it takes time. the medical, you know, I actually wrote an article today and I likened it to if you've got a sore shoulder, you go to a doctor, they find out what's wrong with it. They give you the exercises, you do the physio and then over time the strength comes back and then your shoulders better. If you ignore it, gets worse. Emotion and behavior and physicality in animals is exactly the same. If you want to change an emotion, you can't just flick a switch. Sometimes there are quick fixes. You know, it could be that the dog is tired, so it's woofing because the bed's in the middle of the lounge and the kids are running around and it's not getting any sleep. You move the bed to the corner and it fixes everything. But normally that's not the case. But people need to... come around to the idea these quick fixes tips and tricks tips and tricks give me right would someone come to you and say have you got any tips or tricks for getting rid of an ear infection or tips for a broken leg speaker-0: down the ear hole for 10 days. It's not a tip or trick, it's a treatment. it's a course. But I think, you know, like there's such a good point because ultimately pet owners absolutely adore their pets. Like they love them so much and they literally want to do the right thing for them. And they will invest time and energy and money and everything in it. But if they're being fooled by tips and tricks online, they think they're doing the right thing and actually they're not. So it's a very good point to bring up. speaker-1: Something else I've used as an example, you wouldn't, what did say? You wouldn't ask your hairdresser for plumbing advice. speaker-0: Yes, we say things like this in veterinary all the time. They come in and like, my blah, blah, blah said, you're like, ⁓ great. That person without a medical degree gave you medical advice. speaker-1: But at least like all the time people, it makes me, can you tell how frustrated it makes Even friends, even friends, they'll say, ⁓ you're doing that now. I said, ⁓ know, share my details with, know, if anyone's struggling with behavior, you know, I do a, I do a consultation and I, know, daily exercises and daily check-ins, it's over, was, yeah, yeah, And I said, ⁓ my friend's dog keeps, and I go, mm. And they tell me, go, mm, I said that that needs a vet check. That's an odd behavior. That sounds like physical or. speaker-0: but they'll check in on a Facebook page first. ⁓ Before they come to the vet, they'll call the breeder, they'll speak to the person who sells some dog food and they'll check in on a Facebook page. And then finally they'll come to the vet. speaker-1: But then even come back and I say, is it not because he didn't go out or something? I can't even think of an example. And I go, possibly, but you just asked me and I just told you and you're still saying something different. speaker-0: Yeah. My advice is go to a vet. Okay. But you're like, no, advice is the same. speaker-1: My had a dog that was like that and she gave it a banana and it fixed it. Right. Okay. speaker-0: Before we wrap up, I've got one final question for you. How do giraffes shelter from the rain? Because they're really tall and their heads are above the trees. They don't. speaker-1: I thought that was going to be a joke. speaker-0: No, it's not a joke. I've been wondering about it for a while because someone sent me a picture of a giraffe and it was raining and I was like, how do they shut up? speaker-1: from the rain. actually, away from trees because giraffes often get struck by lightning. Sorry, that's a terrible story. shouldn't have told you that. speaker-0: I worrying about the jirovsky struck by lightning I was only worrying about rain before speaker-1: I'm sorry. No, I was making it up. don't really let off. speaker-0: No, they don't. No, lightning doesn't like giraffes. It's never happened. Do they lie down or they like horses? speaker-1: So it's never happened. No, they lie down, but they don't put their necks down because otherwise they'll know that they've got a special thing in their brain. This has a really radical. They've got a thing in their brain called a reet marabla and it's like a sponge at the base of their skull. Little valve. And if you've ever watched a giraffe drink, they spread their legs and they put their head down and they go, then they go and they put their head up because otherwise if they stood up too quickly, they'd pass out because they go. Wow. speaker-0: can't get it back up. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm like that. speaker-1: but they don't put their head down because all their blood will sort of be flat in their neck. That's not very physiologically accurate. speaker-0: Okay. And they definitely don't get struck by lightning. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's been really, really interesting. ⁓ and you get your bag of bitch. ⁓ my goodness. You can that back to South Africa. speaker-1: I will definitely under the fur this is going all the way back to Southern Tours. speaker-0: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure having you. speaker-1: Pleasure being here, thanks so much.