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From Why to How: My Conversation With Debbie Simmons on Grief, Faith, and the Next Best Step · Rooted & Real With Keenan

• Keenan: All right. Hey Debbie, how are you doing? Debbie Simmons: Excited to be with you. Keenan: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on rude and real with Keenan. Excited to have a conversation with you. we talked all about mental health here, but it's really important for us to start with people's stories. And so my question to you, Debbie, and ask everybody this, is what is your story? How did you become who you are today in the profession that you're doing? Debbie Simmons: Sure. Okay. Well, it's a little bit of a roller coaster ride. So I usually tell people buckle up, there's highs and there's lows. Cause, you know, Keenan: Absolutely. Debbie Simmons: it doesn't matter who it is. There's always a story out there somewhere behind all of this, right? And so so for me, what I would tell you is that I had this idea when I was growing up that I wanted to be a young grandma and I Person who accomplishes my objective. So I set out to do just that. figure out a guy, fall in love, get married, have children, and then I could be a young grandma. And my long journey short is the fact that we ended up in a lot of infertility stuff. And then after many, many years of that, we ended up pregnant, which we're very excited about. and we thought Keenan: Wow. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: it was twins. And it turned out to be quads after we had a scare of that we were possibly Keenan: my goodness. Debbie Simmons: seeing it. Yeah, so two to four. And then that became an interesting journey because that every day in that situation is like pretty amazing to make it to the next day of the pregnancy. And about 26 weeks, we found me standing in water and realizing that this one of the baby sacks had broke. They put me in the hospital. to see if I could make it to the 30 weeks, which was our goal. And the next morning one of the babies decided they were coming. and I, you know, looked at the doctor and I was like, can you please stop this? Just stop this. Put that hand back and let's forget that this ever happened. And she was like, No, you're gonna have to deliver. And I just remember kind of closing my eyes and going, Okay, I'm gonna have to figure my way through this. And lo Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: and behold, the first baby came. They placed the little baby in my arms and I held him and I rocked him until he drifted into eternity. Keenan: Hm. Debbie Simmons: and then the question became would the other three make it? and could I carry them longer? And that couple hours later, I was very, very sick, and the doctor came in and she said, You have to induce, you're just too ill. And I Keenan: Mm-hmm. Debbie Simmons: was very ill. And so they induced the boys and each one of them came and they placed them in my arms and I held them until they drifted into eternity. And Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: we sat at the end of the day with empty arms and broken hearts. And I remember going, I have no idea. How to get through this. I'm like, this seems Keenan: And yeah. Debbie Simmons: hard. I don't know how I'm supposed to get through this. you know, and all these, Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: you gotta remember all these dreams that I have and what I think my life should look like, are definitely shatter infertility. Took a big hit on them. This definitely shatters that. And I just remember I couldn't figure out anywhere else to trust but God in that situation. And so I Very quickly, fortunately, and I think because it was so high risk at the time, was I I just really had a discussion with God that night and I was like, I don't know how to get through this. And Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: I want to know my answer to why. And I think that's the biggest question that we all ask when we run into hard things is why? Why me, why my boys, why this, why now, why, why, why? That's and I'm like, if I know the answer to that, I can figure my Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: way. I sat in the hospital and had this conversation with God about, you know, how do I figure my way through? And this question of why kept popping up. And God was like, You need to give me your why. And I'm like, Keenan: No. Debbie Simmons: no. I'm like, this is the last thing I control is my I want this answer. And if I don't get it, I can't figure my way through. And what I learned over the years is that you know what? Why is the question that holds us back? It it keeps me trapped because Keenan: Hm, yes. For sure. Debbie Simmons: the truth of the matter is this side of heaven, nobody, nobody could give me a good answer to why. And if they did, even if it was a great answer, you know what my my response would be? Why? Because that ain't good enough. And Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: what I'm really looking for at that point is I'm looking for my pain to go away, my boys to be here, to not have had to experience that. And that's not gonna happen. And Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: so that's why I had to learn to lay down that why and learn to ask the question of how do I survive this? And that Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: came down to this idea of the next best step. Take a breath and do the next best thing. And I was like, okay. And so I did that thousands of times. And every Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: time I would take a step, God would meet me and show me the next best step. And then I would do it over and over again. Not that I always went forward, but I always got up again. And what I found was that walked me through a ton of healing, right? And I began to go. I think I can figure my way through this. And then I would do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And eventually I got worked through a lot of my grief. And then I said, Well, you know what? I don't want to just survive. I want to figure out how to thrive. Because this Keenan: Yes. Debbie Simmons: has been so painful. If I can figure out how to help someone else through this and Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: they walk through it better, then and so I changed my question. I was like, okay, God, how do I thrive? You say you're a redeemer of stories. Take my story and use it. And so ever since I started praying that, which was many years ago, I'm like, it's been a wild ride. And so that has led to, you know, working with families that have lost children, adopting nine children with trauma backgrounds over the years. Keenan: Wow. Debbie Simmons: I do have my 15 grandkids, and so I got that. And Keenan: Wow. Debbie Simmons: then, you know, God took me out of my engineering career and Wanted me to start a ministry. And so I started a ministry called Anchor Point that impacts thousands of people every year and helps families thrive. And then he said, write the book. So I wrote the book, got the heart of legacy. Keenan: Mm-hmm. Debbie Simmons: and now what he has done is said, okay, you've built this ministry. Now we're gonna teach this ministry how to sustain itself long term without you. So it'll still be here after you're gone. I'm like, okay, Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: cool. Even though I'm not going anywhere right this second. And I'm like, okay, cool. And then he said, I want you to begin to influence other CEOs and executives on how to take their organizations to the next level, how to help sustain them, how to help create things that they can pass on for generational wealth, impact, and things like that. And so we will be releasing my new book, which is The Architecture of Trust, which looks at trust. in the structure of organizations versus having to depend on just the CEO. So, you know, when Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: the CEO like me is asking the question of why is it so complex now? And why does this keep landing in my office? this is what the architecture of trust teaches. So God has just continued to widen that path of what he wants me to do as I learn to trust him and ask that, okay, how can we use this story? How can we make this impact? And I would say You know, when we look at our stories, losing my boys, their legacy lives on through the things that I do. And they are Keenan: Right. Yeah, for sure. Debbie Simmons: not forgotten, they are not lost. and it's something I wouldn't want to repeat or wish on anyone, but I'm going, it has it has molded me into the person and the person of influence that I get to be today. Keenan: Right. Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you for sharing that. I am there's there's so many fascinating facets of this of this story. Like, a quatlix. I don't think I've ever met anyone who's ever had that. Like is that like what was that like when you heard that? Like you were gonna you were pregnant with four at that at that present time. Like I've never Debbie Simmons: That's so funny. Well, that's funny because originally, originally we had so much infertility, five years. Okay. And then when we went to do Keenan: Right. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: our ultrasound to confirm that the fertility treatments have worked, we went to one the infertility doctor and they did one ultrasound and they said, you're having twins. We left there and went to my first OBGYN appointment. They did a different type of ultrasound and they said, You're having twins. So they saw two different sets of kids. but they both told us that it was twins, right? And so, Keenan: my gosh. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: and so we had I I always wanted four. So I was like, great, we'll just do them two at a time, you know. So we were super ecstatic. And the funny part of the story is my body started to try and miscarry. And that is what put me back in the office to Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: find out that there was four. Okay. And so sitting in the lobby I looked at my husband and I said, you know what? We're gonna go in there and we think we're losing babies, you know, because I'm trying to miscarry. And I They're gonna go, they're gonna tell us we're having triplets. And he started laughing and I was laughing. And so when we got in there and they finally said it, like they found three and then When I saw the four the ult the fourth on the ultrasound, I was like, there's four. I said, you don't even need to look for any more because this is high risk. And so I was like, at that point, I was like, every I I'm like, I don't even know what to do. I'm like, okay, God, you're gonna have to show me every step of the way because I th I had it under control with two. And now I'm like, shot that out the window. I'm like, I don't know what we do. And so there was a there was a wonderful learning to trust in that because at that point. I was the breadwinner for the family. My husband was in graduate school and the doctor's looking at me going, you're fixing to go on bed rest. And I'm going, how are we gonna eat? You know? And so so it was it was fun and exciting and shocking and all that good stuff all at the same time. Keenan: Sure. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I'm I'm curious to know, you know, you went through infertile infertility for five years before that. Debbie Simmons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Keenan: I mean, there are people struggling with that today. There's like that heartbreak, that letdown. Like, I mean, five years seems like a long time. And but to finally have this like to have this news. What was that five years like to just constantly just be, all right, we're starting this, now it didn't work. We're starting this, it didn't work. Like what was that roller coaster like? Debbie Simmons: Yeah, I would tell you that the okay, I believe every woman is wired to have children. And that is Keenan: For sure. Debbie Simmons: that is a desire in us that we maybe not realize, but that God has wired into us, right? And so this desire to have children is a wonderful desire. and I think the question for me as I walk through that was, you know, what is there's something wrong with me. I'm the person that is the challenge in our relationship. And I'm I'm like, there's something wrong with me. and I can't fix it. And I'm a fixer. and Keenan: For sure. Debbie Simmons: I and you know and so here I am trying to go, okay, how do I fix this? You know, God, you talk about children being a blessing and I want children and, you know, all these things, all these good things. And I'm going, I'm running into roadblock after roadblock after roadblock after roadblock. And I remember as we went into the last thing that we were going to try, I had three tries on an experimental study at the College of Baylor Medicine. And I remember the first time, and it didn't work. And Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: I remember clearly going home that day going, I wish I was dead. I Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: am a failure as a woman. as a potential mom and I can't do anything about it. And this sucks, you know, and I just remember Keenan: For sure. Debbie Simmons: I, you know, so I am a person who has a really bad day. And then I'm gonna figure out how to get up. Okay. But that day I walked home, threw myself on the bed, and I'm like, life is over. and I wish, you know, and God gives me perspective through the night, but I'm like, those are Those are lies of the enemy. I am not a failure. My body might Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: not work exactly the way I would think, but you know, ultimately in the end, now that I can look back, adoption was never my plan B. Adoption was always my plan A. I just didn't know it. And so the question for me, even way back then, is do I trust that God is writing a good story, even Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: when it doesn't look the way that I would like it to look. You know, and if we Keenan: Yeah, for sure. Debbie Simmons: go back and if we go back in the Bible, Sarah ends up bearing a child at 90 something, right? And Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: she's been barren her whole life. And I'm going, it didn't look the way she wanted either. Right. And then here Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: she is, the mother to the, you know, the world, the nations. And I'm going, okay, I don't understand the story. I want to understand the story, but that means that I have to learn to lean in and trust more. And so as I went through that, I think that that's why when we were dealing with the four, it wasn't so hard to trust because I had learned this in the pit of all the infertility and to go, okay, I'm still okay. I still have worth. I can still be a person of impact. I am not defined by the number of children I have. you know, and I so I think that's for me. That's how I walk through it. And I have spent a lot of time with a lot of women who could not have children, and I am like, this is not the end. It's only the Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: end if we choose it to be the end. The question is: Keenan: Mm-hmm. Debbie Simmons: will we dream again? Will we trust our story? To God and let God write the story. And if we will, Keenan: Right, for sure. Debbie Simmons: you know, and you need people in your life that are going to help you find that balance because it's really easy to stay in infertility, to stay in the why thing. And all why does is slow us down. and it causes us to look, to look backward and to get stuck and to pick up shame and regret and all of this stuff from a mental health perspective will wipe us out. and you know, Keenan: Right. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: if I look too far in the future, why is gonna get me anxiety, stress, all this stuff. And so the only thing that I can truly deal with and make an impact in is right here in this moment. and I can choose in this moment how I go about things. Am I gonna lean in and trust God? Am I going to wallow in my why? Am I going to, you know, take a positive step? Or, you know, what is it I'm gonna do? Because I I can affect this moment only. And so I just learned to live here because I'm going, I can't Keenan: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: handle back there and I can't handle there. And so let me deal with right here because this is what I can deal. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, in in counseling we talk a lot about like the here and now, like focus on what's in front of you, what you can control. Debbie Simmons: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Keenan: so like we're always kind of bringing people back to the present. take us to, you know, your four sons are delivered. you notice, you know, they're they're dead, they're they're not alive. Like Was there any part of you that was kind of like upset with God, like pissed with God? Like like God, why would you do this? Like, what was that like going through that process? Debbie Simmons: Sure. Okay. Well, I will tell you the whole, okay, the whole day is like surreal. I mean, like I can still clearly remember it and my voice would be 32 years old right now. Okay. And I remember the whole day. But I will tell you what I find is in our deepest, deepest pain, God is amazingly present. So Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: it's like in that whole situation, I have to go through a difficult thing, but it's like. The world stood still. And like all the noise and all the things, it just the world shut it out. And it was like it went in slow motion. Okay. It's it's fascinating. You know, like when people talk about a car wreck and they're like, Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: everything slowed down. So it's like the whole day is like that. Okay. And I can tell you now, looking back, I can see God's hand all over this thing. Okay, I mean it's amazing. But yeah, in this in the middle of it, I have never experienced peace like Keenan: Hm. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: I have in that moment. And the closeness of God in my pain and my desperation. And so I would tell you, it's it's weird, but it was so peaceful. And it was it was like you know, there was no missing the moment, right? You know, you talk about stay in the moment. I'm like, I'm very in the moment. and you know, when they put Zach in my arms, I am just looking at Zach. And you know what? All I can feel is all of my love for this child and this little bit of time that I have with them and his love for me. It's like I would tell people at the memorial service, I was like, you know. I was a perfect mom at that point. I loved Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: my child 100%. I never got mad at them. I never like used a curse word. I never did any of those things. I can't say that anymore. But you know, with these children, and they didn't they loved me with what they had. And it was beautiful you know, in that moment. And so for me, I wasn't mad in that moment. I would tell you that night after everything's kind of settled and my boys have passed away and we're left alone in the room. This question of why, depending Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: on what I do with that question of why, will either make me bitter or it will make me better. and fortunately for me, in my journey, I chose better. And I usually always choose better. I mean, I'm in a situation right now where there's some things that are really challenging my life, and I'm like God, I don't want the rest of my life to be death by a thousand paper cuts. Cause I'm like in these hard situations and I'm like, okay, God, I I want to stay faithful. I want to stay focused on the present. I want to, I want to be excited about the things that you're doing and the little sparks that I see here and there, and not get stuck in the misery of some of the stuff that's going on in my life, the junk that I have to deal with. And, you know, that's a choice for me. And it was a choice then. now, would I tell you before in infertility, did I ever go, God, it really makes me mad that I see people in the news that abuse children and they can seem to have children easily, and I love children and I can't have children? Yeah. Those are those are very normal questions, right? Or why do I have to suffer like that? And but that's that why question. So I'm either gonna get stuck or I'm not. Right. And I have just said, here's what I know. This side of heaven, I'm not gonna get an answer I like that will make me happy and will make all of it go away. When I get to heaven, why won't matter? There's no pain, there's no sorrow, my boys are there. it somehow it makes it all better. And I'm just going, I'm gonna live with that. And I am not gonna hold on to why. And I will tell you that. Skill set of laying down the why and asking the question of how do I survive and then how do I thrive? I use all the time, ever since it. And I mean, even in my CEO job, I've had lawsuits come my way and I'm like, why is that narrative? Why, why, that, you know, why do I have this lawsuit? I did everything right. And I'm like, that's not gonna go anywhere good if I keep going down that way. So I'm like, let me take that. Put it over here and go, okay, what can I do? What's the next thing I can do? Right. And I teach my grandmabies that. I, you know, my my children, some of them have addiction problems. And I'm like, this is where we choose, you know. And so that has been extremely valuable to me. But we have to trust that the why, you know, in the Bible, nobody gets the answer to why most of the time. and Keenan: That's true. It's true. Debbie Simmons: we have to be okay with that. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: I don't like that necessarily, but you know what? Job never got the answer to why. And Keenan: It's true. Debbie Simmons: that's a big old long book, right? And I'm like, he never got the answer to why. And you know what Job said in the end? Job said, it doesn't matter. I got you back. I can I can Keenan: Yes. Debbie Simmons: hear you. I can have the relationship with you, God. And that's all that matters. And I I truly believe that. and have gotten to warm that out. Keenan: Yeah, for sure. So I'm I'm curious, you know, like, you know, a young couple hearing your s hearing this part of your story, kind of going through what you're going through. You know, maybe they they lost a child the way or children the way you did. Like like what do you think they need to hear? Debbie Simmons: Well, I would tell you, let me tell you one great resource that might be good for them. Jack Cafer wrote a book called I'll Hold You in Heaven. I think it's one of the best books for miscarriages and early infant loss and stuff like that. It's a short read. It's great. It's been around for years. it was very good for me. at the time, it just it was like, that's you know, that's what I needed to hear. But I would, I would say to a young couple is This is not the end of the story. This is Keenan: Hm. Yes. Debbie Simmons: not the end of the story. I know it feels like it, and I know days it will seem like it, but if we keep walking, then we will figure our way and God will show us our way. And that I think is the most powerful thing for all of us, you know, to know how to work our way. through that stuff. And so I think that that is what I would say. Keenan: Okay. Awesome. So how so you mentioned God a bunch. I love it. I see the cross behind you. Debbie Simmons: Yep. Mm-hmm. Keenan: how important is God in all this in your story Debbie Simmons: Mm. Keenan: and what you do? Like, how does he play a role and how important is that? Debbie Simmons: Yeah. Well, I would tell you God's my everything. So that really bases everything. The ministry that we run is Jesus centered and all of that. And I'm going, we all have to find our way. This is my way. It's the only way I figured out that really works. I do not know how people go through difficult things and hard things without that as their pillar. and I just I go, I've learned to trust it over the Keenan: Right, for sure. Debbie Simmons: years. And so, so for me, I go, I don't know how you do it without it. I I truly don't. I have been in love with Jesus for a long time. And I'm going, it's just proved faithful over and over and over and over again that I don't even question it anymore. And I'm going, especially when we're talking about grief and hard things, I'm going, I just don't know another way. Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: Yeah. I could try a lot of things, but I'm going, you know, I've watched Keenan: Right. Yeah. No, I I love that. Debbie Simmons: but I've watched, you know, I have kids that have trauma backgrounds and I've watched them try other things. I've watched them try drugs. I've watched them try sex. I've watched them try alcohol. And I'm going, I'm still your mom and I'm here while we're trying to hit bottom. But I'm like, this ain't pretty. and you know, and I just have seen it over the years, especially like in the ministry, we deal with a ton of people that end up falling in love with Jesus and it is such fun to watch how their life just takes it to the next level and changes and God works amazing things in and through them. Keenan: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. It's so it's so valuable to have that like you know, have the have God and to have some sort of moral code and at least have that faith that you know what you're doing is bigger than yourself. that too. Debbie Simmons: Well, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Cause if not, if not, then I'm going, What am I doing? Who Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: why even bother? Why build a ministry? Why impact people? Why do I mean I would yeah, have a lot of different why questions. But Keenan: Right. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: I'm like, no, it makes a difference. It makes a difference. And I I just Keenan: Mm-hmm. For sure. Debbie Simmons: think about like I have I have some grandbabies that live in kind of sometimes difficult situations. And one of them I was having a conversation with and he was like, We were talking about great grandbabies and I was like, I wanna have great grandbabies. And he was like, Why do you even want kids? And I'm like, Why do you say that? And he said, Because they're hard and difficult and da da da. And I'm going, Where did you hear that? Because you make me better. And I said, You're a blessing. You know, and so I'm going, here we need to change his perspective, right? On on what difficulty looks like. And yes. His mom or dad might have a difficult situation and they maybe have said things maybe they shouldn't have said, but I'm like going, No, that doesn't define you. I like little people. I like being with you and you are make me better. And Keenan: Mm-hmm. Debbie Simmons: so he was like, Okay. And you know, and I'm going, but how easily could he hold on to that negative view of children? And I'm like, No, that's not, that's not right. And so Keenan: Right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I only I only have three kids, but I would agree with that statement you said is like the kids like make us better. Like I I truly believe that. and so I love that you Debbie Simmons: Yeah. Yeah. I would say God gave me nine 'cause I had a lot of work to do. Keenan: man. So, you know, you mentioned a ministry you started. Like tell me a little bit about that. Like, what is that? How how does that go? Debbie Simmons: Sure. Yeah, sure. It's called Anchor Point. it's anchorpoint.us. And what we do is we work on helping families thrive. and so we start with our Overea Medical Clinic where we're working with families who are struggling with the decision to choose life for their children with medical care and ultrasounds and prenatal care, everything you can think of on that side. Then we do through our Hope Family Center, we do case management. With these families to help mom and dad. You know, most kids don't come with instruction manuals. And so, you know, these younger people are like, What am I doing? And I'm like, I know, it's like crazy, ain't it? And so Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: we we come alongside them and help them begin to walk through the things that they need to do to be able to be the best parents that they can be. We have our Hope Community Initiatives, which are education, recovery, sexual abuse, abortion, trauma recovery type things. We were in therapeutic camps for families with kids that are struggling. And then we have a maternity home for girls that are homeless and pregnant where we do an 18 month program with them. and so it's all about how do we make our families, our parents stronger and together we can have a bigger impact. But, you know, I truly believe that our communities are only as as strong as our weakest families. And so, you know, what can we do to kind of lift that tide of parenting and encourage people and help them figure their way? Because you can do it, you j God just created us to do it in community. And so this is a way for us to impact those in our community, and even throughout the state, in a way that Makes a difference for eternity. Keenan: Yeah, for sure. I mean, definitely. You know, parents definitely that sounds like a lot of a that sounds like a huge operation. And Debbie Simmons: Ha ha ha. Keenan: but it sounds so needed though, because like, Debbie Simmons: Yep. Mm-hmm. Keenan: you know, my wife and I, you know, like I said, we have three kids and we brought each one home. We were like, who let us bring this kid home? And it's like Debbie Simmons: No, it's the only job you can get without a degree or certification. You can just walk on. No training. And yeah. Keenan: Right. Like, yeah. Yeah. So what is this what is it like for you to like a kind of run this and kind of see the fruits of your labor? And but also, you know, just being you're like kind of in it with this really interesting time in couples or families' lives. So I mean, what's that like? Debbie Simmons: Well, I don't get to be as hands-on as I used to be because it is such I mean, we literally impact, you know, probably about five thousand people a year. and you know, I can't I can't be the CEO and be down in the client room all the time. So I have a wonderful staff and volunteers that get to do that. but I would tell you what I what is amazing to me and what I always challenge the staff to do is I'm like, I want to know. I want you to tell me where you see God at work and how you Keenan: No. Debbie Simmons: see these lives being changed. And so I would Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: tell you the stories of the life change because I need those to share to raise money and do different things and communicate to donors that they are making an impact and everything. But I'm going the stories of the lives Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: change, just the in I mean, I would go. There was one lady who Really good friend of mine when I first started the ministry. She had had an abortion 40 years prior. And Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: she was married to baby daddy, which is very unusual. Great Christian couple, never told anyone. And when Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: I was starting the ministry and I would talk about it, she would cry. And I was like, Isn't this a good thing? And come to find out, this abortion story comes out eventually. And she eventually led the abortion support groups for many, many years and everything. And I remember when our ministry is going on 16 years old, so about 10 years in, Keenan: Wow. Debbie Simmons: I remember telling her, I was like, you know, I would do it all over again Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: just to see the change in you and the impact that God is doing in and through your life. That I could never reach those people because that's not my story. And so I am just super grateful for every story that we get to participate in. And it's fun now for me. I look at the age of the children that come in that maybe wouldn't be here. and now the, you know, the oldest is getting to be 16, they're taller than me. And I'm like, my gosh, you're an anchor point baby, you know, and I get super excited about that. So for me, now it's like, okay, how do we set this place up to live Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: without Debbie, the founder? Because we want it to impact people long after I'm gone. Right. And so I think about now, I get excited thinking about, okay, one day I'm not here, which one day I won't be, but we're not. Going now, you know, but I'm like standing by Jesus and I'm like, look, there's another couple going in Anchor Point. And Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: they're getting blessed and they're being served, and people are loving on them, and they are making wonderful, hard choices to do the right things. And I'm looking at Jesus going, Got to participate in that. That's so freaking awesome. And it's still here. And so that is the legacy piece that I think is the next level of looking at like, how do we set it up where it doesn't have any trouble when the when the founder leaves? Because when a founder leaves an organization, most of them struggle. And I'm going, I don't want that to be the case. And so I think it's my responsibility. And that's why I think he has me doing some of the architecture of trust and working with other CEOs because. it also creates wisdom on my part to do what I need to do in this arena too at the same time. So so my challenge now is how do I cultivate the heart of the ministry into my staff and I invest Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: my time there. So I don't get to be on the front lines as much, but I still get to hear the wonderful stories. Keenan: Absolutely, for sure. So I mean, how does this even like like come about? I mean, how how did you recognize the need? I mean, I I mean kind of within your own story, but like how does I mean it's it's fantastic, but it's just kind of like it's such an operation. And it's so needed too. Like so needed. People need so Debbie Simmons: Well Yeah. I Keenan: much help with that stuff. Debbie Simmons: it's funny, God, you know, if you would have asked me when I was a kid what my career was gonna look like, it would have been like, it goes like this, you know, or some little short version. My career goes, where you know, it goes all over the Keenan: Thank you. Debbie Simmons: place. And I'm like, okay, God. But I will tell you, after I lost the boys and I w I'm an engineer by training. I'm a mechanical engineer and I worked for Exxon. When I went back to work, something had definitely changed while I was in the hospital. I mean, obviously it was a traumatic situation, but Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: life became a it was e it's like it's like eternity matters. Eternity matters. This is this Keenan: Absolutely. Debbie Simmons: is a thought going in my head. And if eternity matters, it matters what I do with my life. Keenan: Hmm. Absolutely. Debbie Simmons: and I want to be very intentional from this day forward. And so I was. Okay. And so what happened is when I went back to engineering, which I love and enjoy doing, I'm like, whatever satisfaction I had in tanks and pumps and construction and all that stuff, and I like that stuff, I was like, this ain't it. This ain't it. Now Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: it may be for other people, but I'm sitting there going, this ain't it. And so God began to pull me away from that career. And I wasn't really listening at first because I'm like, no, this is how I provide. This is what I do. And Keenan: For sure. Debbie Simmons: he eventually just had to like really go, no, you're you're walking away. And that led me to go to seminary, led me to begin working on church staffs. I thought I'm just gonna work in ministry. I worked for Chuck Colson for Prison Fellowship for a while, did prison ministry across many Keenan: Hmm. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: states. and at some point there was this notion that I ought to start this ministry. And Keenan: Hm, okay. Debbie Simmons: at that point I had seven children. I worked full time in a ministry and I point blank told God, no. I said, You stopped at the wrong house. I said, I already have a full time ministry position. I already run a 247 mission field in my house. And you're asking me to do this, and that's gonna take time, energy, effort, all this stuff. I'm not interested. And go find someone else. And that worked for a while. And then you always lose with God, but from that perspective. And after about two years, he said, Okay, that's enough of that. So he took my job away in about a week and it was very painful. Keenan: Wow. Hmm. Debbie Simmons: And after the dust settled, he said, you know, do you got time now? And I was like, Yeah, I think I do. I think I do. So that's how it started. Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. It's yeah. It's interesting how God closes one door and opens another one or at least forces it closed and then you kinda have to go through this one. Debbie Simmons: Yeah. Well, and here's what I have learned though. Okay. I've learned to become a yes girl. Keenan: Hm, okay. Debbie Simmons: This is what this has taught me, is that now I I wake up and say yes. I don't have to know the and Keenan: Yeah. Yeah. Debbie Simmons: that is what he ultimately wants from us. Keenan: Yes, for sure. Absolutely. so you know, you do this this anchor point USA and then you do this work with CEOs. Like, are those like together? Are they separate? Like, what is all that? How does all that entail? It's you. Debbie Simmons: Well, it's me. It's me. So that has to be together. so I I we use I do Anchor Point. I have a wonderful staff, executive staff, and I get to be more on the vision and donor development and all of that stuff. And they do the hands-on ministry. That allows me to do the architecture of trust up, which creates in our community and throughout the United States, awareness of Anchor Point and everything. So it is bringing awareness to the ministry, which brings funds and supporters and things like that. So that's how they work together. Eventually they'll be so big, they'll be separate, but not right now. Keenan: Right, yeah. Seems like you ha you wear a lot of hats or you have you know, a lot of a lot going on. How do you manage all that? Debbie Simmons: Well, that's great question. is I Keenan: Ha ha ha. Debbie Simmons: do have a lot of hats and the truth of the matter is I wake up every day and I go, God, this is what I've planned. This is my idea of what success looks like today. This is what I want to get done. But I'm gonna open my hands to you and you do with me whatever you want to do with me today. And Keenan: Mm, yeah. Debbie Simmons: it's it's a wonderful perspective for changing. my expectation of what success looks like for the day because I might be, I might in my mind, because I'm a task person, I might in my mind have 10 things, but then someone interrupts my day and I can either get bitter or better, right? Okay. And when I put it in God's hands at the beginning of the day, then when there's an interruption, my perspective's better. My perspective is, okay, God. What are we doing? Keenan: Yes. Debbie Simmons: What what are you trying to show me? What is it that I need to be involved in? How do I need to respond here? And I can look for where he's working or what he's wanting from me. And that is extremely powerful. And it's it's really interesting because we fight to like keep control of the schedule. But when I Keenan: Mm-hmm. Right. Debbie Simmons: lose him my hands and I let him do it, you know what? It all works out. It's really strange. I might not get them d I might not get all ten of those things done those days, but I get the important things done and I didn't miss or I didn't lose my joy when something comes my way. And so that is how I manage my perspective. Now I will tell you, as I've gone into this l this last five, six, seven years, one of the biggest things that I've realized mental health wise and everything like that is and part of the reason I love working with executives is to say, look, if you don't, if you don't understand, like when you're saying the question of why does this all land on me or why does it keep coming to me or why is this so complex, if we just assume that that is like the price we pay because it's a larger organization versus it being a structural issue, then the cost to me in emotional and bandwidth and burden and everything is very physically draining and stuff like that. So about five years ago and it's all fine. It is all fine as long as I can show up a hundred percent. but Keenan: Mm-hmm. For sure. Debbie Simmons: five years ago I ended up shutting a a truck door on my leg and it dug a big hole in it and my body and my My life was so razor thin on margin that I couldn't heal my own body. My legs Keenan: Hm. Debbie Simmons: couldn't heal. And it took me about 16 months to get that remedied. Okay. And what Keenan: Wow. Debbie Simmons: I realized was, okay, if I'm gonna go into this next phase, and I because remember, I wanted to be a young grandma, and I'm like, I'm just getting the grandkids, so I gotta figure out how to still be around, right? So I'm going, Keenan: For sure. Debbie Simmons: okay. There's probably things I need to change about how I nutritionally what I do. There's things physically I need to change. I need to learn that this complexity that's in my life is probably not gonna go away, but there's a different way to handle it. And so for the last five years, that's where the architecture of trust comes from is me learning that the world will celebrate me killing myself by hustle and control and all this stuff. But if I want to build something that's gonna last, then I have to get the entity to trust itself and to know how to Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: run. And so this has been my journey the last few years is understanding how I have to create more bandwidth and still be able to have the complexity in my life and Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: trust him in it. And that has been a new that's been a new journey and it's been fascinating because What God actually does with me is He has me sit still more. And that drives me crazy. So Keenan: Hmm. Wow. Debbie Simmons: it drives me absolutely crazy. So, but it's Keenan: Yeah. Debbie Simmons: a good thing. Keenan: Yeah. It's it's important to rest. I mean, he rested on the seventh day, you know? It's important to slow down for sure. in a healthy way. Debbie Simmons: Yeah. And I think the other piece of it is also knowing like I can hear him better. And Keenan: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Debbie Simmons: if I'm running a hundred miles an hour, then I cannot get me in the right place mentally, physically, all these things. And I need to do that. And I don't need to control and hustle somewhere else because that's what's got us here is my ability to do Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: all those things, but it won't take us to the next level. And so I as a leader have got to learn to change and grow. And become the person that I need to be. And that's the journey he's had me on, of learning to Keenan: Mm-hmm. For sure. Debbie Simmons: do that. Because guess what? I'm still married, I'm still the CEO, I'm writing another book. I have a daughter and three grandkids that move back in the house. you know, and I got other crazy things going on. And I'm like, it's not really slowed down. And so God hasn't taken those things away. And I'm supposed to be able to still have. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. So okay, God, what do I need to learn? Right. And that is the place he keeps me most of the time. Keenan: Yeah. So, you know, wrapping up, coming closer to the end, you know, Debbie Simmons: Yeah. Keenan: a couple questions I like to ask everybody. You know, president of the world, you know, pulls you aside and is like, Debbie, every like everyone needs a message, and you have one minute to share this message, or one minute to say what the world needs to hear. Like, what do you think they need to hear? Debbie Simmons: Mm. Okay. I have I have two things. One is is that it doesn't matter where you sit, the sun will come up tomorrow. And we get to try again. And so Keenan: Mm-hmm. Debbie Simmons: it's okay. It just keep keep taking the next best step. And then I think the thing that's most powerful for us when we are in a good place is this idea that we all leave a legacy. Keenan: Hm. Debbie Simmons: but we can choose the legacy that we leave, but it requires us to live a legacy now. And so what Keenan: Yes. Debbie Simmons: are we doing to live our legacies so that we determine what's left versus it's just being written. And I go, the world would be a better place if we were all focused on that. So Keenan: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, we talk a lot about mental health here in faith. Debbie Simmons: Mm-hmm. Keenan: you know, sometimes people listening to this are, you know, they're thinking about getting counseling or they're in it but not sure what to do. Like if they're on the fence about getting help or getting counseling, what do you think they need to hear to kind of get them off the fence? Debbie Simmons: Would tell you, we are not here to do it alone. So, could Keenan: Hm, yes. Debbie Simmons: we do it without counseling? Yes, but you better have a good support network. And Keenan: Right. Debbie Simmons: you better have people that you that you are willing to let speak into your life and to hold you accountable and to challenge you to be taking the next best step to not sit in the why. You have to have people in your life like that. Keenan: Yes. Debbie Simmons: counselors come in and play a great place in that. if we don't have that kind of support network in our lives, that is where I I think it's just to have that safe place. But if I have a safe place and all they do is let me just rant on, that's not helpful to me either. I need people who challenge me and call Keenan: Mm. Debbie Simmons: out my goodness and call me out to the next bigger and better thing that I am capable of doing. And you know, I it's funny, I tell people, I'm like. If I want to be held accountable for something, I don't get my husband to do it. And it's not because my husband's not good and he loves me and he wants the best for me, but you know, somewhere deep down I go, you know, he's gonna love me even if I screw this up. Even if I eat that Hershey's bar, he's gonna still love me, right? If I have accountability from a friend's group, I ain't eating that Hershey bar. And I and so there is this thing to this accountability circle being wider. Than just someone that you're emotionally attached to. because we need that. I have a wonderful group of teenagers that read a chapter in the Bible and then we walk a mile and then we work out for 15 minutes. That's our goal every day. And then we post what we're learning in our little chat group. Okay. And I tell these girls, I'm like, if you get this right now. You're gonna be in a great place because they are holding each other accountable. And I mean, I as the old person in there, I'm like, I am not missing my mile and I am not letting these girls down. And so this is what this is what life is about. This is why God created community. And we have to be willing to lean in and be humble enough to let people speak into our lives. Not everybody deserves to be able to speak in our lives, but save people. that want the absolute best for us. that is what that's what this journey's about. I have those. Every successful person I know has people like that. and I would tell you, you know, I can tell you a lot about what you're going to look like if I know who the five closest people are to you. Right. And so so I think we definitely need to be brave sometimes and be willing to be humble and let people in because it's for our good. Keenan: Absolutely. any good books, podcasts, blogs, resources people can look up to, you know, do more research on kind of what we've talked about today that you recommend? Debbie Simmons: Well, the first one is I would say my book, The Heart of Legacy, is free to all your listeners. they can go to theheart of legacy dot com and that is how it tells way more of my story and the story of Anchor Point, but it is about how to be a focused, faithful, and fearless person. And in the center is nothing but application. Okay. So it's wonderful for figuring out what a next step might be. so that's free. So just go there and get that. And then I would say I love some of the work of Jamie Winship on identity. and because I believe it all starts there. And we all have voices in our head that say, you stink, you're not good enough, you're this. And you know what? That's not our true identity. And so if we really believed what Jesus says about us, we would live differently. And so I love his work, and I think that that would be an encouragement. And then for the infertility, it was. Jack Hayford's I'll hold you and have it was that book. So Keenan: Awesome. Well, I'll put all your stuff in the description so people can find you. thank you so much Debbie Simmons: Yeah. Keenan: for coming on and sharing your story and telling us a little about what you do. really appreciate it. So thank you so much. Debbie Simmons: Mm-hmm. Okay, it was fun.