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IFH 698: Writing the 90 Day Screenplay with Alan Watt · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number six ninety eight. You don't have to create
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a masterpiece every day. You just need to get some words on the page
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every day. Anonymous broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an
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indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host,
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Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast.
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I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise
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of the Film Entrepreneur. How to turn your independent film into a profitable business.
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It's harder today than ever before for independent filmmakers to make money with their
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films from predatory film distributors ripping them off to huckster film aggregators who prey upon
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If you're making a feature film, series, or any other kind of video
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to order it, just head over to www dot film bizbook dot com.
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That's film bizbook dot com. Today's guest is going to help you write your
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complete screenplay in ninety days. Today's guest is Alan Watt, who is a
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screenwriter and award winning author. He's also the founder of the l a Writer's
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Lab, and his book The ninety Day Screenplay will lay out the blueprint for
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you to be able to write your entire screenplay in ninety days, from concept
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all the way to final draft. Now, I really love this conversation with
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Alan because we go deep into the weeds on not only his method of the
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ninety day screenplay, which by the way, I found to be really well
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done, really well put together. It's a great blueprint to get your work
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done and get your screenplay done, but we also go deep into the weeds
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on character, on structure, heavily on structure today, and plot and kind
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of debunking some myths in regards to structure and how many acts you're supposed to
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have and what you're supposed to do here and there. You know, Alan
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really breaks it down down to the core, to the raw, exposed meat,
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if you will, of what a story really needs to be. It
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is a fascinating conversation. I can't wait for you guys to get into it.
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So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Alan watt
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I'd like to welcome to show Alan watt Man. Thank you so much for
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being on the show. Brother, Thanks for having me. All right,
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so, before we get started, how did you get your start in the
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business. Well, I started as a stand up comic in Canada and I
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did I did comedy for a long time, and I moved to New York
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and then some managers brought me out to Los Angeles many years ago, and
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and then I so stand up was going well. And then I wrote a
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novel and it got auctioned for a ridiculous amount of money, and I didn't
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have to go on the road anymore. So I just focused my I'd always
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been writing screenplays. That's when I really focus was more on on novels and
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screenplays and uh. And then I and I started when I wasn't I wasn't
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going on the road anymore. I started LA Writer's Lab about about nineteen years
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ago. Oh wow, so it's been it's been a round for it's been
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around for a minute. I started. Yeah, I started teaching my first
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My first class was somebody asked me to teach a screenwriting a summer screenwriting class
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that UCLA in ninety eight, and um, and I loved it. I
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just loved it. And I um, so I started, uh, and
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I was always giving notes to to all my screenwriter friends. And then I
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just kind of opened the doors on LA Writer's Lab in a really small way
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in in um about nineteen years ago. Very cool. And I and you
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wrote a book, a really a good best best selling we'll call the ninety
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day screenplay. So I have to ask you the question, how do you
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how do you write a ninety day Yes, well, yeah, let's get
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into that. Yeah, I've got a I wrote a boy, I wrote
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the ninety day novel, the ninety screenplay, the ninety day rewrite, and
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and and so yeah, let's talk about it. The ninety day screenplay is
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um is a process of writing a Basically, the first month is outlining your
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screenplay. So we spend a full month allowing the outline to emerge, and
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then we spend the second month writing the first draft, and then we spend
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the last five or so weeks polishing, polishing the first draft up into three
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sections. So that's a basic. So let's break in. Let's get into
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the first part, the outline. I know a lot of a lot of
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filmmaker, a lot of filmmakers and a lot of screenwriters they tend I've heard
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this, this complaint, this objection is like, I don't outline, I
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just let the thing free flow. Man, I'm an artist. I just
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gotta see when inspiration hits me, and I just gotta see where the story
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takes me and where the characters are talking to me, and all that stuff,
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and to a certain extent, I get that, but I've always been
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an outliner. I'd love to hear your point of view on the outline,
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the importance of it, and why you believe it to be such an integral
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part of this process. Okay. I understand why people say that, and
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it's because screenwriting is so often taught by story analysts who aren't really screenwriters themselves,
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and so it's taught so a lot of artists rightfully here outlining or story
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structure as some kind of a formula, and it's not. Story structure is
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the DNA of your protagonist transformation. And so what I'm teaching is a process
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of marrying the wildness of your imagination to the rigor of story structure. But
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you have to be doing both concurrently, okay, And so oftentimes story structure
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is taught as this formula, and so understand an artist is going to recoil
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at that idea. But there's a process of outlining that allows the wildness of
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your imagination to uh, to run free. So you're not You're not outlining
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isn't figure. It's not a it's not a right, it's not a left
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brain process. You're not figuring out your story like it's a math problem that's
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not outlining. I don't know what that is, but that's that's a guaranteed
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way to get stuck. Einstein says, you can't solve a problem and the
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same level of consciousness that created the problem. In other words, he's talking
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about, Uh, let me back up. The purpose of story is to
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reveal a transformation, and so what I so we can't figure our way out
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to a transformation, which is what Einstein is saying. You can't figure your
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way out to the solution to a problem. Every protagonist begins with a dramatic
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problem, this problem that they think needs to be solved, But what they're
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going to discover over the course of the story is that what they're actually struggling
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with is not a problem. For example, Jimmy Stewart wants to leave Bedford
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Falls so you can have a wonderful life. He thinks his problem is how
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do I get out of Bedford Falls. What he discovers is that he doesn't
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have a problem. He never had to leave Bedford Falls. What he discovers
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that he's got a dilemma. And his dilemma is that as long as I
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believe that a wonderful life lives outside of Bedford Falls, all forever be in
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bondage to my limited idea. As Einstein says, of my problem, does
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that make sense? He makes perfect sense? Okay, And so the reason
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it's you know, I want to ask people out there, have you ever
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written a screenplay that you didn't outline and you felt like it did everything that
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you wanted it to do. I think the answer is usually no. And
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I think also sometimes we hear about those screenwriters that claim not to outline and
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think, well, Charlie Coffman says he does an outline. Woody Allen says
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he does an outline. But the truth is these guys have been writing for
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years and they have mastered their craft, and so they while they may not
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be writing their outline down. I've talked to a number of writers about this
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who are really successful, and they go, well, I used to outline,
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but now outlining a second nature. Or I have the outline in my
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head, but I don't write it down, so they don't call it outlining.
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But I think it's a real misnomer to suggest, especially to novice screenwriters,
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that not outlining is going to give you a really satisfying story where the
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whole becomes greater than the some of its parts. It's just not going to
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happen. But what's also not going to happen is if you go to some
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screenwriting class where you're being taught by a story analyst who's teaching you some kind
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of formula. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
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now back to the show, and you're expected to adapt to their formula.
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That's not going to work either. And so what you've got to do is
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you've got to find a process of marrying the wildness of your imagination to the
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rigorous story structure. And that's what I'm teaching in the ninety eight screenplay is
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so it's it's it's the equivalence of me going, I'm going to go build
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a house, but I don't want a blueprint right now. I'm just gonna
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start throwing up walls. And I can only see the four walls that I've
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put up right now, but I don't see it as a whole of the
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house that I'm trying to build. But I would. But if I had
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that blueprint, the architectural blueprints, I'm like, Okay, I could put
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this house here, and I can decorate those walls however I want. I
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can put the window wherever I want, I can put the door wherever I
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want. But you still need to know where it's all going and how it's
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all going to work together to form the final house. That makes sense,
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Well, here's the problem with that analogy. The problem with that analogy is
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it's it suggests that a screenplay is a house, but it's not a screenplay.
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The character, the protagonist and the house are inextricably linked. So character
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is structure. And that's why people people hear that house analogy. I've heard
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it before and they go, yeah, yeah, But so I don't know
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how to build the house. You're not supposed to know how to build the
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house. Einstein again says, you can't solve the problem at the same level
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of consciousness the creator of the problem. So let me explain a little bit
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about what I'm teaching. Is that all these store, all these books on
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story structure talking about the dramatic problem. But the truth is that your protagonist
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doesn't have a problem. They have a dilemma, and there's a difference.
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Problems are solved, they're intellectual Okay, they're intellectual. You can't solve the
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problem at the same level of consciousness. The creating dilemmas are resolved through a
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shift in perception. What your protagonist has is a dilemma, not a problem.
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Jimmy Stewart and It's a Wonderful life has a dilemma. The dilemma is.
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There are two ingredients to a dilemma, a powerful desire I want to
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leave Bedford Falls, and a false belief leaving Bedford Falls is what will give
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me a wonderful luck. Okay, two ingredients to a dilemma, powerful desire
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and a false belief. When you understand you, when you connect to your
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protagonist's dilemma, you're connecting to the source of your story. Okay. Every
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theme, what we really care about in your story is your theme. The
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plot is the vehicle that carries the theme. Okay, and so your theme
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is explored through this dilemma. I always say you know you've got a story
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when what your protagonist wants is impossible to achieve based on their current approach or
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their current identity. Okay, Jimmy Stewart has to die to his old identity
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in order to be reborn. In other words, you can't have a transformation
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without their first being a surrender a dark night of the soul at the end
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of the second act. So okay, okay, all right. So then,
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so you're talking about you just said acts. There's a lot of miscommunication
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about, um what an actual story. You know, the three acts structure,
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the five acts structure, the seven act structure. There's so many different
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kind of structures. Can you can you discuss something? I mean, obviously
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we all know the three act structure is like the big the one that is.
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But can you talk a little bit about those because I know that's confusing
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to a lot of people. Yes, okay, Well, when I hear
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five act structure, I'm hearing I'm hearing like a one hour or a TV
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uh. And and they break they break it up into a teaser typically in
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four acts, or or a teaser in five acts. Uh. But those
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acts are are those acts are They've been designed for in order to have television
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commercials. So those aren't Those aren't story acts. Those are just acts that
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were created by studio executives so that they could sell advertising space. The three
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acts structure is for for future films, and it's also it's for a story.
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And and I, uh, you know the big thing you hear um.
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Now you hear some of these these these these writers who sort of want
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to be um uh progressive or uh. And they and they talk about how
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the three act structure is uh is sort of dead, or that the three
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act structure is only one kind of structure. However, and I my radar
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has been up on this for years. They never tell you the other structures.
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They never ever heard them. There's other there's other structures, there's three
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act structures, all of it's it's only for novices. I've heard so many
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of these these writing gurus talk about this, but I have never heard them
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in a really sort of granular way talk about the other structures. Because I'm
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dying to hear what they are. Well, quickly see, well, the
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three act structure is not a formula. And so when I hear people,
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when I hear these story analys talk about the three act structures not the only
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other structure, they're not understanding that the three act structure can be distilled to
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three words. Desire, surrender, transformation. That's the three act structure.
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Okay, your protagonist wants something, the stakes are life and death. If
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I don't get blank, my life will be unimaginable. By the end of
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act two, your protagonist surrenders the meaning they made out of their goal,
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okay, the meaning they made out of their goal, not their goal,
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and they let go. And in letting go, they reframe their relationship to
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their goal, and they accept the reality of their situation as opposed to the
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appearance of their situation, and that allows them in the third act to pursue
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what they need as opposed to what they want, and that leads to a
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battle scene, which is oftentimes an internal battle that may manifest itself externally,
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but it's a battle scene where they make a difficult choice between what they want
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and what they need, and that leads to the new equilibrium. You give
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me any screenplay that works, and I will show you that structure. Well,
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but so when you hear some of these Greek you know, the old
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Greek plays and things like that, that four acts or five acts or things
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like that, how is that different? And I mean I've heard someone talk
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about Raiders of the Lost Arc having five acts as opposed to a three act.
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Yeah, okay, but what I'm talking about is the DNA I'm talking,
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so they can be broken up into four acts. By Shakespeare, a
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lot of his plays were five acts. But Romeo and Juliet, if you
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break it down, it's it's it's not typically it's not a three act play,
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but the story is the most traditional three act structure. You know,
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Romeo. The inciting incident is Romeo sus sees Juliet through the window. The
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opposing argument is Romeo discovers that Juliet is the enemy, is his father's father,
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an enemy of his, of his of his father. The end of
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Act one, Romeo makes a decision that he can't go back on to profess
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his love to Juliet, and but he's reluctant because he's afraid that her father
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will kill him. Okay. And then the dark Knight of the Soul is
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that Romeo realizes that it's impossible to have Juliet based on his current approach okay,
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And so that leads to him accepting the reality of his situation, which
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is that they are doomed lovers. And that leads to the difficult choice where
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he h you know, takes the I can't remember what the poison is.
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Remember the poison. I don't remember the name of the poison, but he
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took poison. They act duras the yeah, the blanket on it. But
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he makes the difficult choice too, I want to I want to be with
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my love for eternity, and so he kills himself. I mean spoiler alert,
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I mean, come on, it's it's like it's this is this is
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where people get into They misunderstand the semantics and they confuse. They confuse the
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way a a script has been broken up into pieces with the DNA of the
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protagonist's journey. So don't yes, you can break You can easily break up
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any screenplay into four parts because act two is typically twice as long as zact
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won in act three. You can call your screenplay four acts. It's not
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gonna change a word of your screenplay to call it for acts. To break
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up into five acts if you want, got it. It's semantics. At
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the end of the day, it's still three points if if if if one
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doesn't master h story structure, and it's three acts structure. If you don't
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master that, if you don't, uh, then then you're really going to
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struggle with um with writing a you know, writing a compelling screenpoint. So
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let's talk a little bit about character, because a character is is something that
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when we see a bad when we see a bad guy, it's like we
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don't know a good one till we see it, and we don't know a
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bad one till we see it. It's hard to explain, but but like
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you know, you watch some of these amazing characters like an Indiana Jones,
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like a Luke Skywalker, like at Darth Vader as a as a protagonist or
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an antagonist, um, and you see these guys. But when you see
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some of these bad movies, you're just like, oh God, that's so
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blah. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now
20:03
back to the show. This guy has like no this or this girl has
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no that. It's like, what makes, in your opinion, a really
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good character? And how can we any tips on writing a more compelling character.
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Okay, first of all, we got to let go of this idea
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that character has to be likable. The character has to want something really bad
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and that's going to make us care about them. If we understand this circumstance
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that they're in, there will be a we're going to care about them.
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My first novel, Diamond Dogs, the main character. The protagonist accidentally kills
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somebody on the highway in the opening chapter and the second chapter, and I'm
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told people really care about him. It was a best seller. It's we're
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making it into a movie. But the point is that the character isn't necessarily
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likable, but we understand and his relationship with his father, we understand the
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circumstances that led him to this accident, and so hopefully we care about him.
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So so what I want to say is you've got to have a protagonist
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that wants something. The stakes have to be life and death. I don't
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mean literally life and death. I mean I mean if jan Brady doesn't get
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a date with Tad Hamilton, she will absolutely die. Have to get this
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or my life will be unimaginable. That's life and depth. The character wants
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something, the stakes are high, and then at some point the protagonist is
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going to let me, let me walk you through. Just like the really
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primitive necessary stages in every protagonist journey, okay, in every reaction is that
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your protagonist is going to happen. There's going to be an inciting incident.
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Okay, something happens that sets the story intomotion, it's the moment where the
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audience collectively goes, oh, this is what the story is about. Romeo
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sees Juliet through the window. Oh, this is what the story's about.
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And then and then there's got to be a decision at the end of the
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first act. That decision needs to be coupled with reluctance. Why because the
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reluctance keeps us connected to the protagonist dilemma. Okay, dilemma is tension.
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Dilemma feels like I'm being pulled in two different directions at the same time.
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You can feel it. It's an experience, and so our protagonist makes it.
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Reluctance doesn't mean indifference. It doesn't mean I don't really want to do
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this. The reluctance means that we understand what it will mean if they don't
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do it. Okay, I've got to do this. In other words,
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you know, if Luke Skywalker he gets on you know, the ship,
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but he looks back and there's his farm burning and his aunt and uncle are
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dying. He's reluctant to leave, but he what is he want? He
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wants to go and be a starfighter, right, so he's not reluctant to
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be a starfighter. He's reluctant to say goodbye to the status quo, to
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his old life. Don't confuse reluctance with indifference, otherwise it's going to kill
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the aliveness of your screen point. The next major, really big point is
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the midpoint. A lot of screenwriters, I hear this word. It drives
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me nuts because it's an intellectual word. They call it the reversal if you
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try and figure out I can't figure out a reversal in the middle, in
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the middle of my story. But think in terms of experiences. I teach
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story structure as an experiential model. A lot of teachers teach it as a
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conceptual model. But if you think in terms of experience, you're going to
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You're going to realize the character suggests plot. So your character's experience is going
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to lead to an event happening. So think in terms of the experience of
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temptation. In the middle of your screenplay, your protagonist is going to experience
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temptation. Um, you know, uh gosh, I made some notes tonight.
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That's what I'm gonna do this today. So, uh so I'm reverting
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back to some of the old uh you know, in Rocky everybody's seen the
24:15
movie Rocky. Rocky is offered to fight the heavyweight champion of the world.
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What is he? That's the midpoint of the movie. Yeah, it is
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right. Yeah, it's good point seven minutes. No, No, I'm
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good. No, he says no, and Jurgen says, this is the
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chance of a lifetime. Don't pass it by, and then we cut to
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him on the screen with a Paula Creed. Then he says yes. If
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he doesn't say no, there's no context for the yes, and it's a
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wonderful life. Jimmy Stewart is offered to work for mister Potter. Okay,
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if you're writing a screenplay and you're I always say, our idea of our
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screenplay is never the whole story. It's not that it's incorrect, it's that
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it's incomplete. If you are writing your idea of a guy trying to leave
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Bedford, it might never occur to you to have the devil mister Potter offer
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him a job. But what's happened is that he's become so successful with the
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savings and loan that the devil does offer a job. So, in other
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words, if you think in terms of your protagonist experiencing temptation, it might
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occur to you, Oh, what would what would tempt him? If?
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What if the devil offered him a job? So this is this way of
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working, is a way of moving you beyond your limited idea of your screenplay
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and stretching your imagination story structure. If you explore it as as an experiential
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model, you're going to start to invest yourself into it. You're gonna have
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some skin in the game. You're not just going to be trying to figure
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it out from your prefrontal cortex. So with protagonists, generally speaking, everything
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that you've said makes absolute sense that there's a transformation from the beginning to the
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end. But there's two characters that I that one specific kind of story that
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doesn't kind of fit the transformation because the main character doesn't change, which is
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a detective story, the detective story, or like the original James Bond stories
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where James Bond is absolutely no transformation whatsoever, but everybody around him transforms the
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same thing for the detective story, How can you how does that work with
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the detective story? Okay, good, I'm glad you brought that up.
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So in cautionary tales, for example, as in a cautionary tale, the
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transformation can be for the audience. So, in other words, the purpose
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of story is to reveal a transformation. The transformation doesn't necessarily have to be
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for the hero in a cautionary tale. It's not. In a cautionary tale,
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they're led to this difficult choice between what they want and what they need,
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and they choose what they want. Okay. As Judas lays dying,
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he still sees the error of his ways, okay, And so in you
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know, think about I'm remembering I don't know why Carlito's way. It's like
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he dies that, you know, as he's getting on the train, he's
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trying to get away, and he realizes it was too late. I was,
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I was, you know, I got I got hung up with my
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ego. And so don't confuse transformation with a happy ending. It's not necessarily
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Transformation is simply um is simply a shift in perception. It's seeing the situation
27:26
in a new way. And so you think about good Fellas, um,
27:30
you know, the transformation is when we realize that, oh, look,
27:34
crime doesn't pay. Even the theme always comes full circle. So so it
27:41
doesn't mean that it's always happy ending. Yeah, So, like, if
27:45
you look at um like Sherlock Holmes, you know, like Sir Authencorn Doyle
27:49
stories, I mean, there's they're so wonderfully written. And Sherlock is obviously
27:55
one of the greatest characters ever developed or constructed. But Sherlock from the beginning
28:00
of from any of his stories, he's He's Sherlock. He rarely ever does
28:06
change. And specifically James Bond, those early Sean Conneries and Roger Moore,
28:10
they he was just the womanizing guy who does this. The only time they
28:15
changes when Daniel Craig showed up, and that's when you gave I felt that
28:18
they gave such depth to him. And then James Bond actually transformed and that's
28:22
what made Casino Royal such an amazing Bond film. But those early, those
28:27
early movies worked, and those earlies moved for what they were. So what
28:32
would you like, how would you say the transformation was in a Sherlock Holmes
28:36
story or James Bond? Sorry so so, And I haven't read Sherlock Holmes
28:40
in years. What's his sidekicks name Holmes, Sherlock Holmes, Holmes and Watson
28:47
Watson, Watson Watson Okay, So, so, um, it's possible that
28:56
Watson is the protagonist. In other words, Watson in other words, Watson
29:03
is He's not the protagonist. Let me take that back. But Watson is
29:07
the lens through which the audience sees the story. And so so Watson can
29:12
be the one who has the transformation. Is that he can be the one
29:18
who's sort of watching his homes with admiration, perhaps confusion, judgment, and
29:26
then by the end of the story understands something. Because Sherlock Holmes is sort
29:32
of the embodiment of wisdom, he's not going to change. He doesn't need
29:37
to change because he's already like the god figure, right. But what needs
29:41
to change is that we need to change. We need to understand our impatience,
29:48
our judgment, our leaping to assumptions. We'll be right back after a
29:56
word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, and that's the
30:04
thing that gets changed. So so, so Watson is the lens through which
30:08
we become transformed. Excellent, that was a great, great explanation of that.
30:15
I've never actually I've poised that. I've poised that question too many of
30:18
my guests, and you're the first one to kind of really lay it out
30:21
in a very distinct way. I've never thought about Watson because he does.
30:25
Watson does change. Watson's always the one that he's the emotional one. He's
30:27
the one that starts one way and ends another one. But Sherlock never,
30:30
he's He's essentially the god. He you know, he's Zeus, he is
30:34
Superman. He does not change, doesn't change in in in the you know,
30:41
like the the archetype of them, oh god, the you know,
30:47
the mischief, the the the com the comic, the local don't change.
30:52
Oh oh yeah, no, I was thinking Loki mischief, but no,
30:56
no, I know you stay in the comic. Yeah, I'm thinking,
30:57
you know, the trickster one for Forrest Gump. Oh got it, he
31:03
doesn't. Forrest Gump doesn't change. He's already He's already got the wisdom,
31:08
you know what changes. We are transformed as a result of understanding his total
31:18
acceptance of the world. His compassion is um um, his love, his
31:22
open heart. We that that's what we're aspiring to become. He's already there
31:29
from the beginning. Yeah, rain Man would be the rain Man would be
31:32
the same way. Dustin Hoffman absolutely doesn't change. But Tom Cruise does,
31:37
and we as the audience, look at it through Tom Cruise's eyes, right,
31:41
And Tom Cruise is the protagonist in that story. He's the one that
31:45
that Typically the protagonist is one that has the biggest change. Um. But
31:52
that's why, that's why I'm I'm wondering, and I haven't read Shawlock Holmes
31:56
since I was like fourteen years old seeing the Robert Downing movies. Um,
32:01
but the the a lot of the A lot of times there's the story where
32:07
the main character isn't necessarily the protagonist. You know, think about Great Gatsby,
32:12
where the story is told through the lens of Nick Carroway Well, Nick
32:16
Carroll, you know Gatsby, uh, you know dies in the end,
32:21
but Gatsby doesn't really um, he doesn't. He it's a tragic story.
32:29
But we're we are changed through u through the narrator's eyes, you know,
32:35
we're we're we're seeing this story through Nick's eyes. And so sometimes there's there's
32:43
there's some movies where it appears that the the the where where we we it
32:51
appear you know, like ordinary people, the main character. Could it could
32:54
be argued that the main character is the Timothy hunting character, but the protagonist
33:00
is probably the Donald Sutherland character. He's the one that had whose eyes become
33:07
opened by the end of the story, He's the one who says to his
33:09
wife, I don't know what we've been playing at in this marriage for twenty
33:13
years, and then she leaves. Donald Sutherland is you can hang the structure
33:19
on Donald Sutherland's arc desire to I want to bring my family together and he
33:24
can't. And the more he tries to bring them together, the more Timothy
33:28
Hutton and Mary Tyler Moore become polarized. Leads to a dark Knight of the
33:32
Soul where he's sitting in the garage in his car and he says to his
33:37
wife. He starts to question his wife, what the hell happened the day
33:39
we buried our son. All you cared about was the shirt I was wearing,
33:44
the shoes, and what's the matter. She freaks out on him and
33:47
the lights start to go on, and he starts to realize that that what
33:52
he's wanted is to have a happy family, but he's failed to consider that
33:58
he's a member of the family, and so that's when he starts to realize
34:00
that until I consider myself I'm never going to have a happy family. I'm
34:07
just going to be trying to control all the external forces. So in shaw
34:10
Shank, which I consider one of one of my favorite films of all time,
34:14
UM, love it. And you know, a lot of people think
34:16
Andy d Frame is the main character. I argue that Red is the main
34:20
character. That's because Andy does does change, but he is. Believe this
34:28
is my own personal and I've I've talked about show Shank at nausea. I'm
34:32
on this show because it is one of my favorite scripts of all time.
34:36
Um. But yeah, Andy does change because he's definitely different than when he
34:40
walks in than he is when he walks out. But I don't know why.
34:44
I feel that his essence stays the same throughout the piece. But Red,
34:50
Red is the one that has this, I feel even a more dramatic
34:53
change from his point of view from he was already there. He was,
34:58
he was a veteran when he Andy walked in and where he walks out at
35:01
the end. I don't know. I'd love to hear your opinion on that.
35:05
Well. You know, here's the thing is, I don't. I
35:07
don't um it's it takes it takes me a while to sort of thoughtfully break
35:15
down a script and analyze it. So I don't like to give sort of
35:21
quick off the cuff, and I haven't done that with Shah shank And and
35:24
the way I work is, um, it's it's uh, there's craft,
35:31
but it's also um, it's instinctual, it's and so in other words,
35:37
what I'd rather address with this question rather than sort of do I think Andy
35:42
or reads the protagonist? Is is I love that you're bringing up this question
35:46
because what we need to talk about with screenwriting is the holistic approach to screenwriting.
35:52
That that um, that that I love when we look at it a
35:59
script like that and go, you know what, it's possible that Red is.
36:01
So let's let's just let's let's break down this script and let's see if
36:07
we can hang it on on on on Red's arc. What is the inciting
36:12
incident? Uh? You know, why is this day like any other?
36:15
And you know, I would I would submit that you might be right about
36:17
that the day that Andy comes into the prison, you know you do.
36:22
We do have Red narrating it, and and and and that is the day
36:27
unlike any other Okay, inciting incident. That's Right around page ten of that
36:30
script, I think, why is this day like any other? This is
36:34
the day that Andy comes into our lives and forces us to start to find
36:39
the beauty within. Andy's the one that plays the opera music. But Red
36:45
is the one who is allowing himself to be transformed by this external force.
36:55
You've got, You've got a great antagonist in that. That old man is
37:00
so no, no, the old man who who the little guy who ends
37:06
up getting out? Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot it. Yeah,
37:08
with the bird with the bird with the crow, I forgot his name.
37:13
In other words, in other words, here's here's I think. I think
37:17
personally, a more valuable conversation for what you're for your question is, is
37:23
I want to talk about how all of the characters in your screenplay want the
37:30
same thing at nature. They all want the same thing at nature. In
37:34
other words, they all want freedom. Right, what does any want?
37:37
They all want to be free? But notice how all the characters constellate around
37:42
this dilemma. Okay, another, A dilemma is a powerful desire. I
37:45
want to be free. Freedom and a false belief, And everybody's false belief
37:51
is different, and that's what makes that so think about all the characters in
37:54
shawshank as archetypes, okay, primal forces of the dramatic question, how can
38:00
I be free? Well, we do get a guy who leaves the prison
38:04
and then hangs himself because he's got a misperception of freedom. His idea of
38:08
freedom is the familiar I want, I want things the way they are.
38:14
He can't accept change. Okay, Andy is a guy who accepts change.
38:19
This is what makes him so powerful is that he spends twenty years chipping away
38:23
at a hole in his cell and putting a poster over it. Okay,
38:28
and so he is. That's why the ending is so moving, because you
38:34
know the film. He here flips it and we begin to understand what the
38:37
movie has been about the whole time. Okay, that freedom comes from within.
38:42
But we thought that freedom meant escape, okay the beginning of this story.
38:45
So the story isn't about will plot is will Andy escape or will Red
38:53
get out? Or will anybody get out? But theme is about how do
38:59
we reframe our relationship to freedom. Freedom at the beginning means escape. By
39:04
the end of the story, freedom means I must find it within. Morgan
39:07
Freeman says, you know what I know you're never letting me out. Fine,
39:10
but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna kiss your ass anymore. He finds
39:14
freedom within. Yeah, and we could talk about Shashank for another three hours,
39:20
but um so let me ask you this, So the how would you
39:25
tackle because that's the third part of your of your process. How do you
39:30
tackle the dreaded rewrite? Because the rewrite is something that really does. It's
39:37
where a lot of a lot of writers, myself included, get stuck because
39:40
then you start nitpicking, you start losing scope, you start getting into the
39:45
weeds, all this kind of stuff. And what's your process on the rewrite?
39:49
How do you approach it? We'll be right back after a word from
39:53
our sponsor, and now back to the show. Okay, well, I'm
40:01
going to answer that one second, the one I want to back up for
40:04
a second because I can't do the rewrite unless I've done the first draft.
40:09
Remember I talked about earlier marrying the wildness of our imagination to the rigor of
40:14
story structure. In other words, what I want, you know, I
40:17
want I want my first draft to oh and I can't do that until I've
40:22
I've done an outline where I've because because the way I outline, the way
40:29
I teach outline is very different than everybody else. Okay, the outline.
40:31
I always say that everything you imagine belongs in your story if you can distill
40:36
it to its nature. Okay, So I don't want I really encourage.
40:44
We've got to understand that human beings are contradictory creatures. We want adventure,
40:49
but we also want security. We want love and connection, but we also
40:52
want our individuality. And so what happens sometimes I see this all the time,
40:58
particularly with screenwriters, is that in wanting to be a good screenwriter,
41:01
we start to employ logic, and logic kills the aliveness of your story.
41:07
There's nothing logical about Jimmy Stewart considering taking a job with mister Potter. Okay,
41:13
you know there's there's there's nothing logical about a guy who's wanted to be
41:17
free as whole life. He gets out in the first day, he checks
41:20
into a motel and hangs himself. Nothing logical about that, but there's something
41:24
so true about it, and there's something primal about it, and so what
41:30
So in the first month of the ninety Days Screenplay, I keep bringing writers
41:36
back to the primal. What does your protagonists want? What do the characters
41:39
want? What do they all want? That is the same. That's primal.
41:44
Okay, it's not intellectual, but it's I want to be free,
41:46
I want connection, I want meaning, I want purpose, I want justice,
41:50
I want revenge. It's primal the second okay. And so once you
41:54
get that that outline where you feel like there is a primal drive through your
42:00
your protagonist through the story. You write your first draft and you write it
42:05
really, really messy, and you surprise yourself with all the crazy places these
42:10
characters seem to go that make no sense. Now you've got a rod document
42:15
to work within the rewrite. In the rewrite, the first thing we do
42:21
is we do a new outline. Okay, and so the new outline,
42:24
you ask yourself two questions. First question is have I said everything I set
42:30
out to say? And this is where you do an inventory. You go,
42:34
all right, um, there's actually scenes that feel like they're missing,
42:37
or there's uh, there's stuff that I felt like I pulled back. I
42:42
want to I want to just do now. I just want to vomit this
42:45
onto a random page. What is all the stuff that I that I said?
42:50
I would say, sometimes you've you've said it all, and the second
42:52
question is have I said it in the most effective way. That question leads
42:58
you to do a new outline. But the new outline is not a regurgitation
43:02
of your first draft. And that's where a lot of people think, Oh,
43:06
I've got I've gotta just tighten up the first draft. No, you
43:09
need to be willing to pretend that the first draft doesn't exist and you do
43:15
a new outline because now you, once you've written a first draft, you
43:22
understand your characters in a way you could never have understood them otherwise, because
43:28
you've gotten them to the end of your screenplay. So you got to get
43:30
the first draft down fast. Don't rewrite half a screenplay. You got.
43:35
Once you get to them the end, you're going to understand them. And
43:37
then you're going to go back and do a new outline, pretending you didn't
43:42
write a first draft, and you're going to start to ask yourself, now
43:45
that I know more about this story than I ever did before, let me
43:49
pretend I didn't write it, and let me start to explore the most effective
43:52
way to tell the story. Let me let me let me look at you
43:57
know, when I wrote the first draft, I thought I had two or
44:00
three inciting incidents. Let me start to explore what might be the inciting incident.
44:05
Oh, I'm starting to see that. It's when Morgan Freeman sees Andy
44:07
Dufrain come in to the prison for the first time. Wow, I thought
44:12
that Andy was my protagonist. It might actually be read. I had no
44:15
idea. But because I'm holding it loosely and pretending I didn't write the screenplay,
44:21
I'm actually open to that, to considering that, and now my story
44:25
starts to take on a new shape because I'm not trying to make it conform
44:30
to my idea of my first draft. That's that's brilliant. I love that
44:36
approach. I really do love that approach on the rewrite. It's very very
44:39
cool. I mean, I talked Look, I've talked to I've talked to
44:42
a lot of people about the craft. So I always love bringing new new
44:45
guests on because with different approaches, because you never know when you're going to
44:51
get the nugget that is going to going to hit you personally the right way.
44:55
You might be hearing from this guru or that screenwriter or this process that
45:00
that you know, structure or whatever and there's always that one thing. So
45:05
that's probably one of the better ways to rewrite I've ever heard on the show
45:08
period. So it's it's it's very very cool. Now, how do you
45:13
deal with writer's block? That's a question I ask all the time because writer's
45:15
block is and it's rough, writer's block. Okay, let me get to
45:20
that. I just want to address you. Just use the word guru and
45:22
and and some of my students want to call me their guru, and it's
45:27
request. But I want to say something. I want to say something that
45:30
screenwriters out there, because you've got a lot of screenwriters watching this, is
45:34
that I see this all the time, and it costs writers years of really
45:40
great, dedicated work. Is that you are your own guru. And that
45:45
that I see writers all the time. They write a really great, messy
45:52
first draft and then they give it to a friend or a guru or whoever,
45:58
and and and get feedback on it. And the problem is that the
46:02
feedback I'll give you, like the primitive example would be I really like seeing
46:06
three and four, but I don't like seeing two and nine, and so
46:10
I'm being you know, sort of facetious. But they get rid of seeing
46:15
two and nine, and and and you start to it's really subtle, but
46:20
screenwriters writers tend to we want to write something that's really wonderful and it works,
46:25
and what happens is we start to abdicate authority over the thing that excited
46:31
us at the beginning. You do that at your peril. That thing that
46:37
excites you that you might not yet be able to articulate is the thing that
46:42
you've got to hold onto, And so you've got to be able to disseminate
46:46
the notes that are valuable to the notes that are Especially with screeners. Other
46:54
screenwriters always want to tell you how they would write your screenplay. That's fucking
47:00
useless because it's not their screenplay. What if you don't have a screen if
47:06
you don't have somebody giving you notes that is endlessly curious about what you're trying
47:10
to express, They there, they can be UM, their help can be
47:17
really counterproductive. Damaging, Yeah, without question damage. So how do how
47:23
did yeah? How did you deal with writer's block? I think writer's block
47:31
is an absence of information and so UM the way, this is why the
47:37
first month of the ninety Days screenplay is UH. I always tell writers that
47:43
that UM we're not outlining for the first week. By the way, all
47:46
we do is we imagine the world of the story. Okay, now this
47:52
is what three year olds. I got a seven year old, so you
47:53
got you got eight year olds. This is what they do all day long.
47:57
They just tell me a story. Or they don't get writer's block,
48:01
They just tell you a story. It might not make any sense to us,
48:06
but there there's a there's sort of like a super logic to it,
48:09
you know, when they're tell you a story that there's like my son does
48:13
it all day long. He tells me stories and and and so what we
48:16
need to do is is writer's block is where we come to a place we
48:24
think we're supposed to know something, and then we start beating ourselves up for
48:29
not knowing what we shouldn't be Well, we're not yet supposed to know.
48:34
And so there's a process of going from the general to the specific. The
48:37
most general is what's the thing that it cites me? Oh, this is
48:42
this is a story about a boy who meets a girl. Okay, I
48:45
wonder how old they are, and I start to ask myself questions, how
48:51
old are they, where do they live, what do they do? For
48:52
a living. Why are they attracted to each other? Um, what are
48:55
their relationships with their family members? What's the what's the obstacles standing in the
49:00
way of their love? And and that that that's going to lead to every
49:07
every question begets fifty more questions. That's what I call imagining the world of
49:10
the story. I also give my students six writing exercises every day. These
49:15
writing exercises are designed to connect to the primal forces in your characters. When
49:21
you start to do that, by the end of twenty eight days, you've
49:25
you know so much about these characters and and and you are experiencing them in
49:30
relationship to each other. But you're not trying to plant or graft an a
49:42
plot on top of these people. Character and plot are inextricably linked a plot.
49:47
It's not like a character lives inside of a plot. You be.
49:52
You know what makes screenplay so powerful is that nobody other than Andy Dufrain could
49:57
have done what Andy did. We'll be right back after a word from our
50:01
sponsor, and now back to the show. His his his actions are inextrict.
50:12
The plot that happens is inextricably linked to the character to uh who the
50:19
character is right, you can't. You can't. Yeah, of course you
50:22
can't throw Indiana Jones in a James Bond movie, you know, there you
50:25
go, which would which, by the way, I would watch that movie
50:28
would be very interesting to watch. And I would like to throw Indie.
50:30
I'd love to throw James Bond in an Indiana Jones movie. That would be
50:34
that would be a very interesting movie. But generally speaking, in is the
50:39
catalyst for the adventures he goes on because you can't you know, it's time,
50:45
it's place, it's who that character is. You can't you can't write.
50:49
You can't write a Shawshank with Indiana Jones. Like, again, an
50:52
interesting idea, but that's not who the core of that of that character is
50:57
makes sense, the eggs act exactly. And I think that on some level
51:05
there there is and and I really think that it's a product of the way
51:10
screenwriting is taught. It's just it's so often taught by academics, and it's
51:17
it's um, you can't just because you can deconstruct a masterpiece doesn't mean you
51:25
know, for your student, doesn't mean now the student ought to be able
51:30
to write a masterpiece because they've seen that deconstruction the deconstruction is valuable, but
51:36
I think what's more valuable is understanding process. Because deconstructing somebody is going,
51:42
here's the result, here's the thing that was created, but it doesn't explore
51:45
the process that created it. Fair enough. Now, I'm going to ask
51:49
you a few quick questions. Ask all of my guests, sir, um,
51:52
what are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read. Oh man, that's
52:00
boil Boy, that's a that's a great question. Three that everybody should read.
52:04
Yeah, uh, and the list will change tomorrow, but refer right
52:08
now. Well, I want to just be a little bit. Here's the
52:12
thing too, is that, Um, what you want to do is you
52:15
want to if you write in a particular genre, you want to become a
52:19
master of your genre. And so I just want to say that that,
52:22
Um, I don't want to. I don't want to again, I don't
52:24
want to be like the guru. You should read these three screenplays. But
52:28
what I would say is that if you write, if you write romantic comedies,
52:32
you might want to study when Harry met Sally. If you write,
52:37
uh, you know, dramas, you might want to you know, study
52:42
uh, ordinary people or the Godfather or Cuckoo's Nest. Um. You know,
52:47
uh so it's sort of like kind of the question you're asking me,
52:52
is right, you know, all right, I'm just gonna tell you that
52:55
the three screenplays that that I would commen you read our Patty Chefsky's Network.
53:06
Um, and then I would say that was original screenplay. I would say,
53:12
Um, it's the same year within a year or two as Cuckoo's Net
53:15
once we with the Cuckoo's Nest, because that's a brilliant adaptation of a novel.
53:22
And um, and if you read that novel and you read that screenplay,
53:27
you'll you'll you'll see, um, you'll you'll see that these are two
53:31
completely different animals and and and it's a it's a great way of understanding how
53:39
a screenwriter needs to think in order to tell a story visually. And um.
53:46
And then to Tutsi, I would say Tutsi because I think Tutsie's a
53:51
masterpiece. It's that it's got it's got like five Um, it's got five
53:58
subplots that are so brilliantly interwoven that you know, when I read that screenplay,
54:07
I my jaw drops that that that I think it was Alvin Sargent that
54:12
wrote that, and um, it's such a masterpiece. So I guess those
54:16
would be my I don't remember what I said. Now, what what advice
54:21
would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today? Well,
54:25
I would say that there's two businesses. There's Hollywood and then there's independent film.
54:30
And so which business we're talking about? Uh, let's do independent film
54:35
because Hollywood it's interesting, Okay, yeah, because because Hollywood is a completely
54:40
different thing. And the thing is that if you break into indie film and
54:45
you really make your masterpiece, which is going to be very different than a
54:50
studio picture, the irony is that the studio is going to want to hire
54:53
you. You look at the great look at like Ryan Johnson and uh,
54:58
Jeff his name now that made mud and uh oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
55:04
yeah, well yeah, what's his name to? Um Coogler? Brilliant,
55:09
so many brilliant filmmakers who really pursued their vision. And and then of
55:20
course the studio, I mean, Spielberg's perfect example, the studios come calling.
55:24
So so I love it. Let's talk about how do you break into
55:28
indie film? Um. Read the Duplass Brothers book. I think it's like
55:35
brother. Oh my god, it is so inspiring. Those guys are so
55:40
brilliant and I can't give any better advice than what the Duplass brothers gave,
55:46
which was, uh they made it. They basically make a movie on your
55:52
eye. I'm totally paraphrasing, but basically make a movie on your iPhone,
55:55
yea for a three dollars, make a short film on your iPhone, and
55:59
then make another one. And it's gonna suck, but you're gonna start to
56:01
find I think they call it the years uju. Yeah, it's you're gonna
56:05
start to find your voice, you know, in your passion, and and
56:09
and then makes make another one and then and then make a feature for a
56:14
thousand or three thousand dollars and and and keep it. Yeah, I look
56:19
at Joe Swanberg. The guys brilliant keeps turning them out, and every it
56:24
just starts to improve. And uh so I guess that would be That would
56:29
be my thing is don't wait for anybody. I just I just shot a
56:32
I just I just directed a music video right before this this thing, and
56:37
uh we did it for Praggy the Artists, brilliant singer Abby Abbey lions.
56:44
She did a she did a kickstarter campaign, raised the money and we went
56:47
and and and shot it and I'm throwed with the way it turned out.
56:52
But we didn't, you know, we didn't wait for a bunch of money
56:53
to show up so we could make a you know, really perfect. But
56:57
it looks it looks great. We had a great crew, but it didn't
57:00
cost a lot of money. Good good, Now, Um, can you
57:05
tell us where people can find you and your work and tell us a little
57:07
bit about the later the La Writers Lab, So you can go to La
57:13
writers Lab dot com. And that's that's my website. And I'm teaching the
57:19
ninety Day Screenplay June tenth. And it's a donation based workshop. And I
57:24
make a donation based so that everybody could if there's a minimum donation of two
57:30
fifty for a three month workshop, I suggested donation is I think it's says
57:35
six fifty something like that. But I do that because I want I want
57:40
to make great instruction affordable for anybody who wants it. And yeah, that's
57:47
it. I teach a bunch of workshops. I teach the ninety day Novel,
57:51
I teach rewrite workshops, the rewrite workshops are all completely full with a
57:55
waiting list, but if you're interested, you can always get on the waiting
57:59
list. And and I teach benefit workshops every month that are minimum of five
58:05
dollars to join. I donate the money to different charities each month, but
58:09
I their craft workshops, so I'll teach a I've got one coming up the
58:15
end of May. It's on my website and it's called Unlock the Story Within,
58:20
And basically it's everything we've been talking about. It's it's it's connecting to
58:25
the story that lives within you so that you're able to It's a great workshop
58:30
to take before the ninety day screenplay, so that you begin to understand the
58:34
DNA of the story that wants to be told, you know, rather than
58:37
going, oh, this is the story about Andy Dufrayne, I gotta I
58:39
gotta make him my protagonist, and then you start to read these books and
58:44
figure out some conceptual way to get them to a transformation, only to discover
58:47
that the transformation belongs to Red. You know, I just I just love
58:52
that you gave that example. Alan, Thank you so much for being on
58:54
the show Man. Uh, it's been an absolute pleasure. Talking to you
58:58
and sharing your method and your ways and your juju with our audience. Man.
59:06
So thanks again for being and please stay safe out there. It's it's
59:08
rough. Thanks for having me. I want to thank Allan for being on
59:14
the show and dropping some major, major knowledge bombs on the Bulletproof Screenwriting Tribe
59:20
today. Thank you so so much. Alan. If you want to get
59:22
links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to get his
59:25
book and anything else, head over to the show notes at Indy film huscle
59:30
dot com Forward slash six ninety eight. If you have it already, please
59:34
head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for
59:38
the show. It really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you
59:42
again so much for listening. Guys, As always, keep that hustle going,
59:45
keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there, and I'll talk too
59:47
soon. Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie film Hustle
59:52
dot com. That's I N D I E F I L M Hustli dot com.