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Evan Rachel Wood and Tech Accountability · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't come to Stephane.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told your protection of I Heart Radio. And today
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: we are thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: fantastic Bridget Todd. Hi, Bridget, thanks for joining us. Oh
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Always such a pleasure to be joining you ladies. An
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: happy belated birth I thank you. Yeah, I had a birthday.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I almost kind of forgot because it happened in a
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: weird time, but thank you. You were in the middle
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: of your travels, right, Yeah. I was in Austin, Texas
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: for south By Southwest. It's not a bad place to
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: spend your birthday, but it kind of happened very quickly,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: and I kind of forgot about it. I was getting
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: on the plane to go back home and the person
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: who checked my idea was like, oh, happy belated birthday,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: and I said, oh, that's right. I thank you. Yeah.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I think someone recently asked me how how old I was,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: and I like paused to think about it. Um, get
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: back to you on that. But yeah, how was your
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: south By Southwest experience? It was good, It was interesting,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you know, it was the first time they had done
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: it since COVID. It was cool. I have to shout
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: out the fact that probably every other panel or like
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: talk like speech or talk that I saw was a
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: trans person or a non binary person really speaking out
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: against some of the like horrific legislation we've seen in Texas.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: And there were lots of women speaking out about like
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the horrible abortion legislation in Texas. So even though it
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: felt a little bit strange to be in Texas, I was,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I left so empowered and engaged and like leaned into
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: the fight to um, you know, really create change age.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: And so I have to really shout out a lot
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of you know, abortion advocates and trans advocates that I'm
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: sure being in Texas was like tough for them, but
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: I really have to shout out how incredible it was
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: for them to make space to open up conversations about
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: legislation that is harming their community. So it was good. Yeah,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I love that because I know, like it's kind of
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: so difficult to be in an area where it's so
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: toxic to you as a person, as a human being
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: going through your life and then feeling like, yeah, you
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: know what, I can't leave because I have to fight this.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: There's just a double wayman. But that is amazing to
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: hear that such an event, which is an international event,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: was able to push forward that conversation. Absolutely. I I
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: really think, like shout out to all of those people
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: who I don't even say, I'm not even like. I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: think they took the space for themselves and I think
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: that was the right thing to do. Yeah, awesome, that's
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: that's amazing. And we were discussing before the one. Um,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: this is a topic that is so important that you
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: brought to us today. It's a bit of a downer,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: but it's incredibly important and and I think like we're
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: going to have a lot of there's a lot of
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: nuance with this that I appreciate that you brought to it.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: So what did you bring for us to discuss today,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: Bridget Yeah, as you said, it's a little bit of
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: a rough topic. So you know, we're gonna be talking
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: about sexual assault and you know, domestic violence and abuse,
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: so just know that going forward. So you know my podcast,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. It's really all
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: about the ways that issues that maybe don't seem like
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: tech issues, issues that impact women and other traditionally marginalized people.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: You know, they might not be seen as tech issues,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: but they're very much tech issues. And today's topic, I
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: think is a really great example of what I mean.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: So today I want to talk about the platform YouTube
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and their failure to remove a video of actor and
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: activist Evan rachel Would being sexually assaulted. So it is
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: really important to me, you know, as someone who makes
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: a tech podcast and cares about technology and works on technology,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: to talk about this and especially frame it not as
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: kind of a quote celebrity story, which I've seen it
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: really framed as, or even worse as a quote he said,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: she said, which is obviously not correct because that kind
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: of framing I think really lets tech companies that are
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: involved off the hook. I'm sure these tech companies like
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: YouTube would love it if this story was not framed
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: as a tech accountability story and it was just a
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: sort of you know, celebrity story, But unfortunately for them,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: that's I'm not framing it that way. I am framing
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: it as a tech accountability story because that's what I
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: believe that it is. That's amazing because we literally were
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: just talking about an episode which came out when which TikTok.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I talked about the fact that are allowing these really bad,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: like really misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates essentially
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: and allowing it saying it's not violating anything. Is just
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: a joke, and it's kind of like, wait, where's the accountability. No,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: you are allowing this rhetoric that people are just latching onto,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: which is so toxic, harmful and dangerous for women in general.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: So we need to have a conversation about why you
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: are accountable for these things. But I digress, because let's
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: hear about exactly what you're talking about, especially with Van
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Rachel Would. I think I know a little bit about it,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: but if you can just kind of go into that, absolutely,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So here's what's happening with Evan Rachel Wood. Basically, would
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: have spent a few years now advocating for survivors of
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: sexual violence and abuse, and when she's done this, she's
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: often referenced her own, you know, heretofore unnamed abuser, but
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: on February one, Would publicly named her abuser in a
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: message on Instagram. She wrote, the name of my abuser
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: is Brian Warner, also known to the world as Marilyn Manson.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: He started grooming me as a teenager and horrifically abused
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: me for years. I am here to expose this dangerous
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: man and call out the many industries that have enabled
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: him before he ruins any more lives. And so a
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: quick note for people who are listening, you will probably
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: be more familiar with Brian Warner as his stage name
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: as a musician, Marilyn Manson. But I am not going
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: to call him Marilyn Manson in this episode, and I
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: have basically stopped calling him Marilyn Manson in general because
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: I think it adds to this mythology that Brian Warner
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: has created around himself, and I believe that he has
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: exploited that mythology to continue to abuse women. I'll talk
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: a little bit more about what I mean later in
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: the episode, but when I say Warner, Bryan Warner, I'm
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: referring to the musician whose stage name is Marilyn Manson,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: whose actual name is Brian Warner. And Evan rachel Wood
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: is not alone. Several women, including women who are not
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: famous and don't have a public profile like she does,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: have made similar claims against Warner. So far, sixteen women
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: have accused Warner of sexual abuse, and four have sued
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: him for sexual assault. So, you know, I said earlier
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: that people were mistakenly framing it as he said. She said,
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: so even though that framing is not correct, Even if
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: that is how you were framing it, it wouldn't really
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: be a he said, she said. It would be more
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: like a he said, she said, she said, she said,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: she said, you know, sixteen times up at the very
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: least exactly. I mean, like, like, who even knows you know,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: this is what we know about. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: And I remember when this came out and when it
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: first came out this kind of news, but it's recently
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: I saw it come up again that Warner is kind
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: of pursuing a legal a legal battle of his own
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: against her. So can you go into more like what
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: is going on right now? Right? So this you know,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: we were talking about this when Evan Rachel would first
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: named Warner as her abuser back in one But the
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: reason why we're talking about it right now is because
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Evan Rachel would just released a new documentary. But you
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: can watch on HBO Max the two part documentary called
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Phoenix Rising that really chronicles her story. As you might
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: imagine it is a difficult watch. I watched the first
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: part of it, and I had to take a break
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: from the second part, which was watching last night, because
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: it's a little I mean, as you might imagine, it's
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: not the easiest watch. So just if you're planning on
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: a watch it, it it just know that. Um So the movie,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: it's It's interesting in that it starts ostensibly as a
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: kind of erin Brockovich style story, chronicling would successful campaign
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: to pass the Phoenix Act, which is an legislation that
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: extends the statute of limitations on domestic by US in California.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: But during filming, when Would publicly names Warner as her
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: own abuser, the film begins to follow that aftermath, and
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: so the documentary really chronicles her upbringing her her work
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: to become a you know, survivor advocate and domestic domestic
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: abuse advocate, you know, trying to pass this legislation, and
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: then kind of pivots when we see her publicly name
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Warner as this person who had abused her that she
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: had been referencing as her abuser for so long in network.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And I know when we were originally seeing all of
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: this come because I remember seeing her testify before the
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: name was coming out in front of the Senate, trying
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: to talk about the statute of limitations and going into
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: this whole conversation. And how quickly after the fact she
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: shown herself as the survivor advocate and she named him.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: How many people came behind her like, oh my god,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: this is why this is familiar. As well as the fact.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: When she described some of the events that happened to her,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: many women already came out because they had gone through
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: some similar things, um, including how they met. So can
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: you kind of talk about their relationship specifically Warner in Woods,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I really like how you have framed that because I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: think that in her situation, so many other women spoke
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: up and said, this was exactly what happened with me.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: He did this to me, you know her her sit
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: and I also think just her situation is really familiar
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: to me. And I think anybody who is dealt with
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: domestic violence or sexual abuse by an intimate partner, the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: way that he operated in the beginning might be kind
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: of familiar. So Wooden Warner met at a party at
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: stau Marmont when she was eighteen and he was thirty seven.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: They maintained a platonic friendship where Warner would talk to
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: her about things like her favorite books and her favorite artists.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Then the two started to date. Now she describes this
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: as a kind of grooming and love bombing situation where
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: you know, early on he was referring to her as
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: his soulmate and really was making her feel like he
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: was the only one who really got her, really loved her.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: her from her friends and family, and that was the
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: beginning stages of their early romantic relationship. And so at
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: this point, you know, you might be thinking, you know,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: why would someone like Evan Rachel would get involved romantically
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: with someone like Warner who was known for these shocking,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: kind of gross antics on stage. And that kind of
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: really goes back to why I'm not going to call
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: him quote Marilyn Manson, And I think that big part
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: of that is because Warner's public persona as Marilyn Manson,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: really helped him get away with gross abusive behavior in public.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: So if you were a young person like me in
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: the nineties, you might remember that after the Columbine School
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: shooting in nineteen Warner was legitimately unfairly blamed for the
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: deaths of fifteen young people after it was misreported that
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: the Columbine shooters were big fans of his music and
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: that his music motivated them in the shooting. You know,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: at this time, politicians were lobbying to have his performances banned,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: citing these really over the top exaggerated, outlandish, untrue claims
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: things like at his shows, that he would have the
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: security guards spiked the drinking water at the shows and
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: give it to young kids in the audience, or that
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: he was engaging in bestiality on stage, or like ripping
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: apart animals. Warner's legal team actually sent the American Family
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Association a cease and desist for saying that he encouraged
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: kids to engage in violent sexual acts from the stage
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: in the audience. And so none of that was true,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: and Warner countered these legit unearned, unfair responses to the
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: rent that his music posts to kids by doing these
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: sort of very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was able
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: to portray himself indirect opposition to this outlandish onstage persona
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: that these politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: and so as he was being demonized by these people
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and sort of, you know, them making up these outlandish
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: exaggerations and claims about him, he was able to really
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: present himself as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable person. And one
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: interview that really sticks out to me if anyone has
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: seen the documentary Michael Morris Bowling for columbun there's a
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: sit down segment with Marilyn Manson where he says things like, oh,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: the young people who perpetrated the Columbine shooting would have
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: been safer had they purchased my cd s, you know,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: rather than buying guns, and so he can remember specifically,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: and it really created this, um, I don't know, the
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: sort of portrayal of him as someone who was being
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: unfairly maligned, and thus some of his other behavior was
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: really able to go unscrutinized because it was so clear
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: he was being unfairly demonized for this behavior that he
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: never actually engaged in, Like he wasn't actually spiking the
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: drinking water at his shows and having sexts with animals
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: on stage, right. And I know we're going to get
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: into this more later because I have a lot of
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: thoughts about all of this, and as I said, you
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: do such a great job of like there are a
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: lot of nuances to this conversation. But I remember I
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: listened to Marilyn Manson when I was really young and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I had a friend who was her parents really conservative
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: and they know jokes. Showed up at my mom's house
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: and yelled at my mom for letting their daughter listen
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: to it. And it became such a point of It's like,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: it didn't have to become this point, but it became
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: such a point of like, oh, you you conservatives don't
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: get it. You're trying to like hold me down and
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: you don't understand, and like I feel so outcast and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: you'll never get it, and it there kind of outrage
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: made it into a bigger thing than it would have
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: been if they had never said anything. Oh my gosh,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I have the same exact experience, right. So I was
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a kid, I was in junior high. I'd say, hey, damn,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: I'll say and you know, I was like an ALTI
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I would to say I was like a goth kid,
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: but I was saying very alt and I totally had
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the same experience. I ate up this idea that he
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: was being unfairly persecuted, and I, you know, I felt
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: like I was being unfairly persecuted as this like weirdo
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: ALTI kid as a junior high student. Never mind the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening. That's just
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: like how I felt because I was a teenager. And
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: I think he really really used that exact thing as
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior. And
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I honestly I agree with you. You know, I listened
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: to Warner's music a lot as a you, and I
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: really really liked him. Like at a poster a Marilyn
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Manson poster in my locker next to a Prodigy poster Prodigy,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: And I think that, like, I listened to all different
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: kinds of music, but the only music that had this
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: kind of over the top, exaggerated, like uh climate around
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: it was Marilyn Manson, And so that fed into the
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: idea that he was being unfairly persecuted at the time.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if people remember what it
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: was like to be a young person after Columbine, if
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: you were like a little all tea or if you
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: were all black. It did kind of feel like, you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the powers that be were cracking down on who you
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: were in the aftermath of that shooting. And so I
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: think that had there not have been such a backlash
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: to the music, Warner's music when it has been another
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: in a mixed bag of stuff that I liked, you know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I liked Prodigy, I like Somepice girls, I like so
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: many different things. But because of this over the top
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: response to his music, it pushed me that much further
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: into this kind of I don't know, dangerous vibe where
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: he gets to position himself that's unfairly persecuted at anybody
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: who doesn't like him or his behavior is just you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: doesn't get it and doesn't get you any seen treating
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: I like it, well, I will say I was older
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: than you also like, yeah, I wasn't. Okay, everybody, we're
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: not going to the time frame of this, but I
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: do find that interesting that we have this conversation because
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: this is this kind of that whole time frame around
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the matrix as well as video games and blaming all
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: of these things. Uh, but also how they like to
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: over demonize kind of like how it's happening with Q
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: and On and when we talked about sex trafficking and
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: that they are doing so much theatrical things that that
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: made no sense, that it's overshadowing the actual problems that
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: are happening, and therefore exactly like taking attention away from
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the true crimes or the things that are so horribly wrong,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: because it is being overshadowed by the caricature of accusations
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: merely for a platform, merely for politics, and it's so
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: obnoxious because yeah, because of that, Marilyn Manson got this
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: credibility for being um misunderstood a as you had already said.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: And then also he's able to use that now as
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: a part of his defense today. But I know we're
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: gonna be able to talk about that in a minute, absolutely,
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: I mean. And then also, like what you just said,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: isn't it interesting how the American Family Association and all
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: these politicians we're trying to banish shows. We never did
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: much about guns though. That was just like we we
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: had the conversation about violent video games, the Matrix, black clothing,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: trench coats, Bran Warner, but not the guns. So it's
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: exactly what you just said of kind of an intense
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: overreach that reaches to the wrong cause, I guess, and
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: then let's the real cause just go un analyzed. Yeah,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: and I think that, Um. Something that's been on our
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: minds a lot lately is this idea of consent and
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: how our environment is really set up where true consent
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: for women is almost impossible, and this situation being such
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: a grooming situation where you have this person coming in
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: who's much older and who was showing you with attention.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: And I was saying recently on an episode, like I'm
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: was raised to be this way. But like when I
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: was eighteen and people can't call me, I'd be like flattered,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: It's be good. Oh my gosh, I have desirability. That
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: means I have value, um, and that put me in
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: some unsafe situations. So this I hate this. I hate
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: that she was young and there was this older person
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: that she respected and she was getting this attention and
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: it's just absolutely predatory, absolutely praying on her. Yeah, I
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: mean I can really identify I'll just say that. And
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you don't necessarily realize
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: it until you're older, and I mean it applies in
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: this situation too. I want to I want to be
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: careful about how I speak about this because it is
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: part of the conversation. But when Evan Rachel Wood was
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: in a relationship with Marilyn Manson early on, and keep
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: in mind, she's eighteen, she's very young. I remember very
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: clearly her an interview saying like, oh, people need to
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And I think it's easy for people to say, like, oh, well,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: now we're supposed to believe her when she says that
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: she's being that she was being groomed or commerced. Well,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: she was eighteen when that happened. There, she was eighteen
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: when they met. Like, you're so young, and so it's
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: completely tracked with my own personal experiences that you might
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: not have the world experience or just the life experience,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: or you know, your own understanding of your place in
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the world at eighteen. It might take a few years
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: for you to look back on that and say, hey,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I was being coerced, or hey, you know, was being groomed,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: or something's happened that shouldn't have happened, and I didn't
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: have the language or the voice yet to say I
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: don't want this to happen. And I think that's one
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: of the reasons why this story is one that needs
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: to be told, because I think that's all of ours.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I think that's so many of our stories. It's so common.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: I think it's completely unfair to use that as a
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: reason to not support survivors, not listen to survivors, because
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: it is so common. I think that big portion of
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: this conversation is that the early sexualization of young girls
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: point blank is part of this problem because I know
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: a lot of this conversation. When Evan Rachel Woods came
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: out in her acting career, she was thirteen fourteen and
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: came out with this big indie film that pretty much
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: talked about young women growing older real quick, trying to survive,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: and thinking that way to survive is to be sexual
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: and grown like that was the whole basis of the movie,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: which has the whole conversation in itself. But because of that,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: because of things like that, that's where she came into
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: the eighteen year old and no one, no one listening
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: to the fact that this is grooming. Like I don't
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: care if she's legal now, which is which is a
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: bullsh term, the whole barely legal books that I really
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: want to push everybody in the face every time they
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: say it. That's that conversation is really sexualizing these young
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: girls and telling them they are of more worth because
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: they're acting grown, because they are finally in their way
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: of being a woman and finding out and not having
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: the support and understanding or people even letting her know
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: the whole concept of consent and why that is a
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: big conversation that needed to be had way back when,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: and because of that feeling trapped because she is being
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: told this is what you put yourself in. You knew
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: what you were getting into, which is the formula of
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: all of the victim blaming which we see today that
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: has not gone away, that for some reason is used
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: by everyone, not just men, women all between, because it's
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: so hard to let go of that internalized misogyny of saying,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: but you knew absolutely, And she explicitly says that in
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: some of the things that experiences that happened to her
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: that we'll talk about in a moment, like she explicitly
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: says exactly what you're referencing that you know, she had
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: internalized that she was meant to just go along with whatever,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: and that was that was like what she was supposed
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: to do. And that is something that I think that
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: we all internalized and we have to sort of like,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: I know that I have a lot of un learning
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: to do around, you know, at like saying no when
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: something doesn't feel right or when you know, And for
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: me it has been a lifelong process, and so it
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: sounds like for her she had to learn that as well.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And as you said, I mean, it starts so early,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and eighteen really is so young. You know. She talks
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: about how when she first met Brian Warner, she said
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: that she really liked him at what he stood for,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: and she wrote in his in her journal that she
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: thought that he was the hero and the spokesperson of misfits,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: and I it just really does sound like he did
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: a very good job of making her feel like that
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: was true, that she maybe felt like a misfit, and
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: that he was an advocate for people who felt like
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: they didn't belong and that he really used that persona
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: to continue to abuse women and girls pretty much in public.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: There's this great piece in the Atlantic that sums it
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: up nicely called Marilyn Manson told us what he was.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: It sums it up very nicely. They right, if we
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: believe would and more than a dozen women who have
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: accused Manson of abuse. Then a strange twist is that
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the aftermath of Columbine seems to have enabled Manson to
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: become what Would's brother describes in the documentary as quote
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: a wolf and wolf's clothing. The hysterical invented accusations leveled
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: at Manson then that he molested children on stage, killed animals,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: had a security guards, drug underage fans with liquid ecstasy,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: minimized other things that might have been happening in plain sight.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: But they also allowed Manson to detach his artistic persona
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: from himself and allowed others to infer that anything offensive
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: he did was just performance art, winking commentary on America's
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: hypocritical and a moral core. And that to me really
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: sums up why I'm not comfortable calling him quote Marilyn Manson,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: because you know, inventing this persona and saying that its
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: performance art should not be a way to avoid and
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: excuse accountability for your own abusive behavior. And I believe
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: that's what the Marilyn Manson persona has allowed him to do. Hello,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Kanye West, exactly exactly, thank you. I mean, it's all
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: it's all part of the same, like the abusive ball
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: of yarn right genius artistic, like it's I can talk
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: all day about this, but it's all like two sides
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: of the same messed up coin. Well, that's I'm referencing
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: that Kanye literally is hiding a little bit behind Brian
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Warner about bringing him on stage and putting him as
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: like he's an ally because we're the same. You're like, yeah,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: you are. That should tell you something. Yeah, I like,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I remember I had I had forgotten until you just
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: mentioned that he brought him up on stage during his
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Easis tour, And you know, I think it was meant
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: to be like all of these malign people who don't
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: understand our genius. And it's like, you're right, I don't
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: understand your genius. I think it's abusive, yes, yes, And
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: I think you're hiding behind that to get away with it.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: And that's problem exactly exactly exactly. This is his thing,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: And in interviews, Warner pretty much is open and in
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: public about some of the abusive behavior that he has
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: put wood through you know he's hot. In a pretty
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: notorious Spin interview, he talks about how he fantasized about
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: smashing her head with a sledgehammer, or how after they
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: broke up and she stopped taking his calls that every
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: time I called her that day, and I called her
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty eight times, I took a razor
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: blade and cut myself on my face and on my hands.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: But then later he is able to say, oh, well,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't really mean those things, or I didn't really
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: feel those things. I didn't actually do those things. I
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: was just playing a character. And I believe that that
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: excuse allows him to skirt accountability for his actual behavior.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: As Brian Warner. You can't say that that was just
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: me playing a rock and roll character who is Marilyn
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Manson when you have an actual partner who was accusing
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: you of abusing her. Yeah, And it's really terrifying because
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: we're also seeing this in politics form, seeing politicians being like, oh,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: that was just a joke and you didn't get it right,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: like doing that same sort of thing, and that's been
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: that's been really damaging. And also, I again, I grew
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: up listening to a lot of like punk rock and
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: emo of the like two thousands, early two thousands, and
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: we were just talking about this, like the lot of
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the lyrics and that, which is a lot of men
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: singing about like pretty much hating women, um and blaming
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: them for their sort of violent actions. And then and
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: also the TikTok thing you were talking about. Man, it's
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: the same thing. We're seeing it again, like being like, no,
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's just that's is who I am. That's
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: my art. Let's I expressed myself. You took it too seriously. Yeah,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: I mean I completely agree. And maybe it's because I'm
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: older now I'm going back and thinking like, wow, I
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: was listening to music that was like there's this brand
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: new song where he's like, have another drink and drive
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: yourself home. I hope there's ice on all the rooms,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: and it's like that's pretty like like I look like
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a very young person screaming along to lyrics that were
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: pretty dark. And you know, I'm someone who like I
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: love I love music, and I think people should listen
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: to what moves them, but we should also be a
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: little critical about whether like what that what that was,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and and if that was Okay, there's actually a TikTok er.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I can't remember her name off off the top of
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: my head. But she goes back and replays kind of
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: like scream oh punk bands from or you know, from
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: that era, and unpacks the way that they are really
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: unfair to women. And it's like, wow, that I had
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: no idea you that I was basically singing along happily
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: for an anthem that's about disrespecting women. And I'm a woman,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: you know, right, I mean and Andy and I've been
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: talking about this for a lot while about the romanticizing
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: of abuse, as if it's something like that that should
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: be a part of your relationship and not understanding this
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: is really not good, that these like the constant phone
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: calls not great, the the I'm gonna kill myself if
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you don't love me back, like this whole level of like,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: oh my god, what is happening? And we've allowed that
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: to be because somehow we've allowed that to be romanticized
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: in our head. It's this is true love, right, like,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: this is what it means to be in love, to
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: want to die if we're not together, and then going
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: beyond that for men and be like if I really
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: want you have to show you my power, and my
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: power mats me hurting you maybe or someone else for sure,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: in order to show you that I am the man
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: who can protect you quote unquote in so many different ways,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: and like kind of this whole other trope we've allowed
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, that's just men being men. This is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: this is normal, this is good, right, and no one
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: really questioning until after the fact of realizing, oh my god,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: there's so much trauma here. Why did we think this
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: was okay? Yeah, I completely agree, and we should really
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: be asking the question about what we depict as romantic.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: And I think something that you said I can't stop
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: thinking about is that it starts so young, Like how
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: many of you all remember when if you're a girl
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: and then maybe I got a guy when you were
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: a kid pushes you on the playground, and some adults
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: somewhere it's like, well, it's probably because he likes you that, like,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: you know, like we should not be it happened so
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: early that we make it okay when quote unquote affection
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: or love is actually abuse, and I should really be
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: asking questions about it. Honestly, I just one of my
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: go to comfort movie that I kind of tease about
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: all the times of rather tui and recently, I like,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: there's a scene in and I was like, oh my god,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: why did we allow this? In which the rat comes
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: through the roof and do you see a couple fighting
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: with a gun? It goes off and he's like, oh
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: my god, goes back and they're kissing and making out
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: and he just he just laughs in shrugs and walks off,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, is that okay? This is this wait,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: Like we're not even gonna talk about how people are
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: really upset about periods, but this is okay. This scene
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: has made it. But you know, like this is that
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: level of like it literally was just a blip in
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the screen of a very g rated movie and it's
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: romanticizes like oh but they just love each other. That's
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: just one of those one one more couple like that. Yeah,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: you know how you know how marriage is, how you argue,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: get at the gun. Later you're kissing, a gun goes
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: off and you forget about it. Everything is fine. But
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: that's the thing is, like what are we teaching? I mean,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be one of those people like,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: but what is this movie teaching? But like that is.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: It's it's become so normalized in these conversations that women
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: really truly a girl, young girls really truly think this
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: is the epitome of being a woman. This is the
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: epitome of being in a relationship. Tough times means he
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: hits me, but I forgive him, Like that's that conversation
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: until you realize, oh my god. I couldn't see it
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: until I left, and until I figured out talking to
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: other women how it was not just him loving me,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: that this is him controlling women in general, exactly exactly that. Yeah, gosh,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like we could go I we need a
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: venting session, we need a podcast because I'm like, yeah,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: let's talk about what we're not allowing for consent and
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: all this stuff. So I know we're not going to
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: go too deep into is, but could you go kind
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: of briefly into what would says about what Warner put
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: her through? Yeah, the list of abuses that he put
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: her through are truly horrifying. I honestly don't want to like.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: This is why I couldn't finish the documentary because it's
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: a lot, So I don't want to spend too much
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: time on it, because they really are sickening. But among
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: them are the allegations that Warner, who would says, collected
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Nazi memorabilia, So just a really great guy would whip
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: her with a Nazi whip and would her mother is
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Jewish and she was raised Jewish herself, and so this
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: is obviously really messed up. She said that he also
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: deprived her of sleep, forced her to drink his blood
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: in a blood pack where he also drank hers, raped
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: her while she was sleeping, forced her to take drugs,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: and a lot more of the abuse. She says, I
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: felt my brain changed, I felt it almost calcified. And
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: the world is never the same. And it's just the
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: list of And I should also say that the kinds
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of things that she says that he put her through,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: other women who so dated him say the same thing,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: and so it's a lot of it's a lot of
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the same kind of stuff. Like other women that she
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: talks to have said that he branded her or like
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: carved things into their body like it's it's it's horrifying allegations.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: And so I should mention that Warner he denies these allegations,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: and he says that Wood has been contacting and coercing
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: women into saying they were abused by him. He is
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: currently suing Would and her Phoenix Rising contributor Il mcgore.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: According to Time, he's accusing the women of a quote
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: conspiracy in service of which they supposedly quote secretly recruited, coordinated,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: and pressured perspective accusers to emerge simultaneously with allegations of
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: rape and abuse against Warner. Yeah, I find it interesting
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: that we have like sixteen women at least coming out
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: at the same time, and we're as a society it
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: seems so much more ready to be like, but there's
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: this video of her at eighteen saying she was into it, right,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So that's all lies. She manufactured this whole thing, and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: he is downtroud and once again the one that is
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: getting unwarranted exactly in women don't make this kind of
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: stuff up, This idea that they would be simultaneously trying
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: to come together to come up with these lies about him. Why, Like,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: who who would do that? Who would want the kind
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: of scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: this kind of abuse? Who would welcome that into their lives?
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: People don't make this kind of thing up, Like it
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: is so rare for people to make up allegations of
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: this kind of abuse that it just let alone sixteen
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: different people. It's like it just it just doesn't cold water.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: It's like, isn't the way it works. And again, probably
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: more than sixteen that's coming out. But the conversation is
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: too that the actual events and abuse were so similar
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: to each other, even the game of throws or something
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: as may Bianca I think it's her name, she had
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: similar stories to Wards, like being deprived of food, being
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: like to cut, like there's so many things. It's like,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: this is beyond just maybees. And I do remember that
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: he had one partner who actually was like that didn't
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: happen to me, And people lashed onto that story so hard,
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: and it was kind of like, but that doesn't mean anything.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it just negates the entirety of the
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: story of who he is at this point in time.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: And I can't stand this because it also comes back
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: to the point of demonizing these women and shaming them
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: in every way possible, taking any work of art that
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: they did so as actors who may have portrayed a
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: nude scene at any point in time. So she's a slut,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: how do you she want? Obviously she knew what she
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: was getting into. This whole level of conversations where they
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: just completely try to discredit someone based on this and
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: really feeling like, obviously, these women are doing it for
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: attention when it actually hurt a lot of their careers.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Evan Rachel was for a long time out of so
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: many things, as out of projects because of the trauma alone. Yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: so he did have a ex partner say he was
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: always nice to me. And I'm not going to discount
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: what she's saying, but as we know, you know, someone
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: being nice to you doesn't mean that they are never
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: abusive to other people. And so people absolutely latched onto that,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right that it certainly has not helped
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: the careers or the trajectories of the people who are
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: speaking out. And it's just like that's not how it works,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Like people don't lie about this kind of thing. It
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: does not help. It hurt Evan Rachel would to come out,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: She risked a lot to come out, and this idea that, oh,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: they're doing it for attention. Who would want this kind
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: of attention? Right? Right? And also let's talk about the
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: side that Warner is not in jail exactly. He was
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: on a damn Kanye West show I I Hate It,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: I Need It, So you might be wondering, well, okay,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: in what way is this a tech issue? And so
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: there is one specific incident in the abuse that Wood
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: talks about that I want to focus on right now,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: and that is the music video for Warner's song heart
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Shaped Glasses. Um That music video features Evan Rachel Wood.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: She was in that video when she was nineteen years old,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: and he kind of casts her as a modern day
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Lolita because apparently the story goes that she was wearing
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: these heart shaped sunglasses at the party where they met,
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: and in you know, Lolita wears heart shaped sunglasses in
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: the book. And so in the documentary, Wood says, of
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: the music video, we were doing things that were not
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: penetrating me for real, and she goes on to say
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video. I
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: say no because I had been conditioned and trained to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: never talk back to just soldier through I felt disgusting,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: like I had done something shameful, and I could tell
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: the crew was very uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: That was the first crime committed against me, and I
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: was essentially raped on camera. And so, according to Wood,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the music video for Heart Shaped Classes is actually a
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: video of her rape, and that video is available, not
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: to mention, monetized on the platform YouTube as we speak.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Anybody who wants to go see it can look it up.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: And so Warner's campus they deny these allegations, and they
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: say that Wood was coherent and involved in the planning
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: of the video. They say, of all the false claims
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: that Rachel Evan Wood is made about Brian Warner, her
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: imaginative retelling of the making of the Heart Shaped Classes
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: music video fifteen years ago is the most brazen and
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: easy to disprove because there were multiple witnesses. So they
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: maintain that the scenes in that video were actually simulated. However,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: shoot under the condition of anonymity, who corroborated Wood's claims, saying,
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: I do believe that there were some moments of actual
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: intercourse and so that for me is really how this
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: becomes a tech issue and a tech accountability issue. Is that,
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: according to Would, YouTube is promoting housing and monetizing a
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: video of where she says she was being sexually assaulted,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: and frankly, I'm inclined to believe her. And so the
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: question is what is YouTube going to do about this?
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Are they going to just allow a video of a
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: sexual assault to be on their platform and continue to
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: profit off of it. I would say if that's the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: choice they're making, it's pretty questionable. Yeah, I'm afraid to
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: ask what they're making. I you know, YouTube they quickly
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: took the video down and then they made a donation
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: to anti rape organizations. Oh wait, just kidding, they do
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: any of that? They they basically so there's a change
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: that Art petition with overt signatures calling for YouTube to
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: remove the video, and Evan Rachel would share this petition,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: and they pretty much have signaled that they're not going
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: to take it down. Their spokesperson Jack Malone says, we're
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: monitoring the situation closely and we'll take appropriate action if
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: we determine there is a breach of our creator responsibility guidelines.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: And so this is really why I see this as
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: a tech accountability issue. You know, YouTube, like most online platforms,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: have community guidelines that users have to follow, and according
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: to those community guidelines, content that includes quote non consensual
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: sex acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: own stated community guidelines. The community guidelines in terms of
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: service says that a user can have monetization suspended or
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: have their entire channel terminated if their behavior away from
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: the platform harms YouTube users, and so to me, it
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: seems pretty clear they have publicly stated that their community
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: guidelines prevent non consensual sex acts or unwanted sexualization in
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: their content. And here we have a video where Evan
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: rachel Wood says this is exactly that, and yet they're
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: continuing to host this video and profit off of it,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: because we know that's how YouTube makes their money. It's
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: from advertisements that are on the content hosted on their platform.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: people to only grapple with this as a quote celebrity story,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence to
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: what they say their community guidelines are. And you know,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I really take issue with that. I really have not
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: seen a lot of folks in the tech community talking
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: about this story as an example, a really clear example
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: of YouTube, I think, failing to create a reasonably safe
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: environment for its users and and just for the world,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: right and out of curiosity because I don't know much
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: about how YouTube works. Not take savvy. Is Warner making
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: money from this as well? When he gets all these views?
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Oh that is a good question. I actually wouldn't really,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: I'm actually not totally sure if he specifically is making
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: money from these videos being hosted, but I do know
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: that he has a YouTube account, and so just how
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: monetization works, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not I'm not
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: able to say one way or another, but I wouldn't
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: be surprised. I checked to see if the video was
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: still on the platform before we started this this talk,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: and you know, right before the video played there's ads,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: and so I can I can imagine I wouldn't be
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: surprised if he if he is making money from that
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: as another income stream, And yeah, I guess that's that's
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: really the crux of why I wanted to talk about
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: this is that this is what happens when women and
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: other traditionally marginalized people are not really meaningfully centered and
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: reflected in tech. It allows one platforms to harm us
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: and make money from our harm and be able to
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: do so with without any kind of real accountability and
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: to it allows for there are so many tech publications
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: that are that are missing an opportunity to spotlight this
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: as a tech issue in terms of the harm that
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: that YouTube is allowing to be spread on their platform. Right,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's the big conversation is that who is
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: making money off of sometube with trauma? And this is
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: absolutely what is happening, is that they're making money the
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: off of it and giving views and giving credibility to
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: the abuser once again as a musician. And this is
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: such a whole other conversation of like, you have responsibility
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: in making sure that people are not continually retraumatized and
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: or being harmed by your content, and yes, if it
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: is your platform, you are responsible, point blank exactly. And
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I also think you know YouTube there in their community
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: there is a confession or a conviction. YouTube is owned
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: by Google. Right, Google is one of the biggest companies
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: in the world, and how things work in the platform
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: accountability space, when a huge player in the space does something,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: it creates pressure for other people to do things. And
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: so if Google was to do something, that would create
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow a suit
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: because big platforms really do set the tone. And so
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: I believe that a company like Google, who owns YouTube
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: should be able to say, we don't need to wait
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: for Brian Warner to confess that he, you know, sexually
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: assaulted Evan rachel Wood on the side of this video.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: We don't have to wait for a legal conviction. We
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: are Google, and we can set the standard for what
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: is it is not appropriate on our platform, and a
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: video of someone being sexually assaulted is not appropriate. But
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I believe that they're really just throwing up their hands
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: and saying, not our problem. Call us when he confesses,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: call us if there's a conviction, We're gonna just ignore
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: this and hope that you do too. I think they
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: are absolutely just abdicating responsibility. And guess what, you don't
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: get to do that when you're Google. When you're a
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: huge company like Google, you have a responsibility that is very,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: very powerful, and you don't get to just say it's
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: not our issue. We're gonna wait for the course to
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: figure it out. We're gonna wait for him to confess
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: when you're Google that that is so irresponsible and it
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: sets up a dynamic where other platforms can follow suit.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: So it really is irresponsible, cowardly and also just harm
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: whole And again, they're making money from this inaction. They're
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: continuing to just let this video rack up millions and
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: millions and millions of views that are being made from
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: a video of someone being sexually assaulted. And let's also
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: point out that it's a video, not the entire artist,
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: not his whole genre of music. One video. That was
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: the request. It shouldn't be that hard exactly, and I
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: guess I just I mean, yeah, it shouldn't be this hard.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: And I want so desperately to believe that a different
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: world for survivors as possible in the scheme of things.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: So small asking for one the music video to be
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: removed in the scheme of things, what is that? You know?
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: I feel like that is such a small ask that
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: a survivor has clearly made and they're just able to
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: say no. I want to believe in a world where
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: survivors can expect more, survivors can expect dignity and respect
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: and to be listened to and meaningfully centered. And I
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: believe Google has a chance to do that. That they're
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: just giving away. And it's exactly what you were saying,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: that this is a question of believing women respecting women.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Let's say it was consensual just for the sake of argument,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: and she's like, I don't like this because whatever happened
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: beforehand in this relationship, it was traumatic. Please take it off.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: That should be enough. That should be enough without having
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: to regarditate the same experience as and tell them exactly
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: how it hurt you, which is also traumatizing. We shouldn't
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: have to be that we have to put on a
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: fanfare for someone to believe that we are in pain
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: point blank. Yeah. I mean, we shouldn't have to scream
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: just to be heard, you know. In this week's episode
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: of my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet,
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: we talked to a survivor and an advocate, Alison Turkos,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: who was sexually assaulted in a lift, and she talks
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: so eloquently about how she is back, did too regurgitate
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: the most traumatic, painful thing that happened to her over
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: and over and over again, and that we create a
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: world where that is supposed to be the pathway for
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: survivors to get justice. And I don't think that survivors
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: A owe you their stories or B should have to
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: relive this pain just to get anyone to do something.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: YouTube has the power. They could, they could decide to
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: take this one video down tomorrow. They take things down
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: all the time for all different kinds of reasons. And
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I believe that making a survivor retell her pain in
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: this way to then do nothing, it's just survivors are better,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Survivors should be able to expect better. Yeah, I mean
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: that's an excellent point because it's someone who used to
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: like upload YouTube videos a lot, and they get taken
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: down all the time because the music was too close
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: to other music. So it's like, we're clearly I've been
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: thinking this whole time as we've been talking about this,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: the messages that young girls are picking up from witnessing
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: this from a celebrity that they see and this is
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: the response that she gets. And you know, we care
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: more about copyright infringement, the survivors and how that influences
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: you and what you think is normal and what if
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: you're going to report um, which again that is very
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: personal and complicated and does have a lot of fallout often,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: but also just this idea of men getting this kind
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: of genius artistic card and the like women that they've
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: left behind, this path of trauma that they left behind
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: that we've determined is okay because we've got this art
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: out of it. And that's what it takes. And I've
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: done I've done some work in acting before, and it
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: is very you will get that messaging hardcore where it's like,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: but this is gonna be great, and this is going
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: to launch your career, and this is what it takes.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: This is what you have to do because it's so
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: competitive and oftentimes it's just like an excuse to take
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: advantage of you and then you'll never hear from them again.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: God like if you were And so that's how it
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: is in a lot of entertainment industries. Let's say that
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: you were an accountant and someone was like, well, Joe
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: is a really gifted accountant, so you're just gonna have
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: to put up with him sexually assaulting you and physically
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: abusing you and treating you horribly because he's just a
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: really talented accountant. Uh No. And it should be the
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: same way across industries. There shouldn't be these huge carve
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: outs for men to get away with abusive behavior and
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: have that abusive behavior be repackaged and sold back to
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: us as genius. No. I completely agree that whether you
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: are a musician, an actor, or an accountant, there should
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: be some clear standards for how you are expected to behave.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: And you know, a music video is a workplace. You
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: know that's that has a crew and has people who
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: are paid to be there, and you know, there's just
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: no excuse for that. And I'm I'm unwilling to accept
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: that that's, you know, the marker of genius, or that
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: we have to put up with men's powerful men ends
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: bad or abusive behavior to get great art. No, I'm
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: just unwilling. That's unacceptable to me. Agreed, Agreed, I can't wait.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: We gotta have a venting session on I need it.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I obviously I need it. I feel like we all do.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: I can feel it in me. Um Well. In the meantime,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: thanks so much for bringing this topic to us, Bridget
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: and giving it the nuance that it deserves. Always appreciated.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Where can the good listeners find you? Well, I would
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: love it if you listen to my podcast. There are
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: no girls on the internet. Not all of our conversations
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: are about heavy, sad issues, but we would love to
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: have you listen. You can check it out on this
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: very network. I Heart Radio. Can follow me on Instagram
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: at Bridget Marie in d C or on Twitter at
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Bridget Marie. Yes and definitely do that. And we can't
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: wait to talk some more, Bridget. Maybe we got some
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: other things in the works coming up, very exciting, so
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: look out for that. Listeners. Um if you would like
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: the emails that you can our emails Sefidium, stuff that
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I Hurt Me you dot com. You can find us
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: on Twitter at most of podcast or Instagram A stuff
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: under Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: We love you, Christina, Yes, and thanks to you for
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: listening Stuff under Told You his prediction of I Heart Radio.
• 51:10
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• 51:12
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• 51:14
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