Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / State Wants KOHBERGER'S CLICK Activity in Murders of 4 Students

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State Wants KOHBERGER'S CLICK Activity in Murders of 4 Students · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grece Brian Coburger. It never is
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Speaker 1: with this guy. In the last hours we learn more
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Speaker 1: and more, but what information can be trusted? I mean,
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Speaker 1: see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with
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Speaker 1: us here at Fox Nation in series six one eleven.
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Speaker 1: Listen to this.
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Speaker 2: A new report says two surviving housemates in the Moscow, Idaho,
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Speaker 2: rental home where four students were killed were awake and
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Speaker 2: texting each other while the murders were taking place. The
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Speaker 2: new information comes from airmail dot Com. The lengthy article
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Speaker 2: attributes the information to someone on the grand jury which
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Speaker 2: indicted Brian Coburger. The information was allegedly leaked to Kayleie
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Speaker 2: Gonsalvez's father, Steve. Neither Gonzalves nor his attorney have commented
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Speaker 2: or confirmed the information in the article. There is currently
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Speaker 2: a restrictive gag order in place on the case. A
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Speaker 2: statement released by the family, however, calls the claims a
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Speaker 2: very poor attempt at getting attention and obviously fictional.
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Speaker 1: What if anything, does it mean with me? An all
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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now?
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Speaker 1: But that's the tip of the iceberg of what we
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Speaker 1: are learning straight out to Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and start
1:32
Speaker 1: of hitting new series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. Joe Scott.
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Speaker 1: I'm trying to make sense of the evidence we're hearing
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Speaker 1: now now according to this leak. I'm always suspicious of
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Speaker 1: a leak, but it apparently came from a grand jurrr
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Speaker 1: that heard all sorts of evidence vidits we are not
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Speaker 1: privy to, and the victor's parents are not privy to
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Speaker 1: it now. Granted they know a lot more than we know,
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Speaker 1: But trying to make sense of this because it doesn't
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Speaker 1: quite jive with what we've been told. One of the
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Speaker 1: surviving victims said that she woke up in the night. Actually,
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Speaker 1: let's hear it, Joe Scott and the New Analyze take
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Speaker 1: a listen to hour cut five six seven.
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Speaker 2: We do know at least one of the surviving roommates
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Speaker 2: reported seeing something suspicious to the police. Court documents detail
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Speaker 2: what the roommate reportedly heard and saw. The roommate was
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Speaker 2: on the second floor of the three story house. She
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Speaker 2: told police that she woke up around four am hearing
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Speaker 2: noises above her, thinking Gonzalvez was playing with the dog.
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Speaker 2: According to the probable cause affidavit, the roommate thought she
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Speaker 2: heard Gonsalvas say there's someone here. She looked out but
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Speaker 2: didn't see anything. The roommate also reported she heard crying
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Speaker 2: from Xana Pernodle's room and then heard a male saying
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Speaker 2: it's okay, I'm going to help you. When she opened
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Speaker 2: her door a third time, she saw a masked man leaving.
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Speaker 2: He was dressed in dark clothing and had bushy eyebrows,
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Speaker 2: and he left through the sliding rear door. She described
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Speaker 2: him to police as not very muscular, but athletically built.
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Speaker 1: Jo Scott what we're hearing right now claims that the
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Speaker 1: surviving roommates were actually texting each other during the attacks.
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Speaker 1: Does it jive with what we already know?
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Speaker 3: I don't necessarily think that it does, Nancy, because if
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Speaker 3: that's the case, if they were texting back and forth,
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Speaker 3: and you've got all of this cross noise is what
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Speaker 3: I'll call it, because we haven't really been able to
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Speaker 3: kind of peg it down, have we, relative to what
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Speaker 3: they were saying. You know, we hear this idea that
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Speaker 3: she thought that she heard the dog being played with okay,
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Speaker 3: and that that was the rumpus upstairs, and then she
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Speaker 3: hears the crime and the person saying it's okay, I'm
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Speaker 3: going to help you. There's nothing here of substance. You
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Speaker 3: know where we can actually hang our hat on intellectually
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Speaker 3: where we're talking about them texting back and forth. You know,
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Speaker 3: how does this information come out? And my experience relative
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Speaker 3: to grand jury h information is they can if information
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Speaker 3: is leaked out like this, they can have your guts
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Speaker 3: for garters at that point in time, it doesn't make
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Speaker 3: sense to me.
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Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you right now. And Tara Malik,
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Speaker 1: I think, is going to agree with me. She is
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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer named partner Smith and Mallet, former state
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Speaker 1: federal prosecutor. Tara, thank you for being with us. No
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Speaker 1: grand gurr is going to be dragged into court and questioned, hey,
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Speaker 1: did you tell your husband about this and then he
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Speaker 1: blabbed it at work. That's not going to happen if
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Speaker 1: this came from a grand your and for those of
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Speaker 1: you just joining us, what we're talking about is actually crucial.
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Speaker 1: If it's true or not true, No grandeur is going
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Speaker 1: to get in trouble now. If it was a lawyer
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Speaker 1: or a witness, say a blabbing out of school, yeah,
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Speaker 1: there could be sanctions. But Tara, I had an eighty
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Speaker 1: seven year old judge. He was a fantastic judge too.
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Speaker 1: Let me tell you Luther Roberson sharp as attack. He
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Speaker 1: would always tell jurrrs it is your duty to make
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Speaker 1: all witnesses speak the truth and impune perjury upon no one.
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Speaker 1: What that means and regular people taught is maybe that
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Speaker 1: report is true, and what the victims' families are saying
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Speaker 1: is true, and they say that's not what happened. Because Tara,
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Speaker 1: what about the theory that they were texting as they
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Speaker 1: were going to bed just before, like minutes before the attacks.
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Speaker 4: I agree with you.
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Speaker 5: One hundred percent, Nancy. I think you know there's going
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Speaker 5: to be I would highly doubt that there would be
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Speaker 5: any sort of repercussion into a grandeur who makes a
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Speaker 5: comment to off hand comment to a husband or spouse
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Speaker 5: or whomever. The bigger issue to me is this allegation
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Speaker 5: that one of the fathers the victims may have somehow
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Speaker 5: contacted this grandeur. I think god could be very problematic
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Speaker 5: as far as from an EVIDENTI or a standpoint. You know,
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Speaker 5: if there were text messages being exchanged by surviving roommates
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Speaker 5: during the course of the murders, that information would be
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Speaker 5: highly critical for I think both sides. I could have
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Speaker 5: the tendency of corroborating the timeline that the prosecution is
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Speaker 5: trying to put together and piecing together through other pieces
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Speaker 5: of information and evidence like the phone pings and you know,
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Speaker 5: some of the observations and where this car may have traveled,
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Speaker 5: and trying to put coburger there. If there were other
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Speaker 5: descriptions of the person who was committing the murders, other
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Speaker 5: statements that were being made, and all of that would
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Speaker 5: come in because if they are texting contemporaneously, so at
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Speaker 5: the same time that these events are going on, all
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Speaker 5: that evidence would be admissible at the time of trial.
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Speaker 1: I was just having a hard time reconciling it, and
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Speaker 1: I normally try to reconcile. I mean, back to you, Joe,
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, hold on to Cole Parton. I'm coming right
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Speaker 1: to you. Just start Morgan. How many nights I mean
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Speaker 1: midnight or early morning before I would go to court,
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Speaker 1: but I go back to a crime scene to try
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Speaker 1: to reconcile what witnesses were saying, and guess what. Most
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Speaker 1: of the time I could reconcile it. For instance, one
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Speaker 1: witness was saying, I couldn't see a thing, and the
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Speaker 1: other witnesses saw everything was four feet away. Guess what.
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Speaker 1: There was a giant bush, giant ten feet tall beside
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Speaker 1: the home where that murder occurred. And it occurred outside
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Speaker 1: beside another tree. So one wines didn't see anything, and
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Speaker 1: the other witness saw everything. And when I figured that out,
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Speaker 1: I get to take a picture and get it corroborated
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Speaker 1: on the stand and give it to the jury to
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Speaker 1: explain the discrepancy and the witness's statements that happened not
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Speaker 1: with a tree, but with many other factual issues Joe
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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, where both parties were speaking the truth, their truth,
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Speaker 1: the truth as they saw it. So I'm trying to
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Speaker 1: find a way to reconcile this. And I think it
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Speaker 1: was mister Gonsolves said this did not happen. A grandeur
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Speaker 1: did not say that, but apparently a grandeuror said something
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Speaker 1: like that. So I'm trying to reconcile is it true?
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Speaker 1: But I'm very curious when it comes so suspicious, when
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Speaker 1: it comes to unnamed sources. Gonsolvas isn't worried to go
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Speaker 1: out there and go this is what I know. But
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Speaker 1: somebody that keeps their identity shrouded, I don't know who
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Speaker 1: that source is. Why don't they want us to know
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Speaker 1: the truth so we can question them? I find that
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Speaker 1: a little sus Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I do too. And one of the things that makes
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Speaker 3: me think of is that somebody's trying to bait for
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Speaker 3: more information to be drawn. You know, it's kind of
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Speaker 3: show that. Listen, this case has been so shrouded relative
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Speaker 3: to what has been revealed up to this point, as
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Speaker 3: well it should be. And I know that you appreciate
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Speaker 3: that as an investor, As an investigator slash prosecutor, I do.
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Speaker 3: We don't need all of this data floating around out there.
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Speaker 1: Ohose, your horse is big man? You know why? True?
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Speaker 1: The state has to hand over basically their whole file
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Speaker 1: to the defense. Fine, So I know US Supreme Court
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Speaker 1: ruling Brady Maryland. Fine, but do I have to tell
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Speaker 1: them my trial strategy? No? I don't and wouldn't. So
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Speaker 1: you're so right, Joe Scott Morgan. You know when you
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Speaker 1: into court you don't want the other side to have
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Speaker 1: your playbook, because you don't have theirs, and you've got
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Speaker 1: to do what's best for your case and to get
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Speaker 1: a true verdict. So you're right, you don't want things
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Speaker 1: floating around out there. And I'm very I'm also curious,
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Speaker 1: Karen Start, renowned psychologists joining me out of Manhattan, why
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Speaker 1: someone would leak something that wasn't true, because it just
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Speaker 1: causes heartache for the family. Guys, for those of you
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Speaker 1: just joining us. A new report in the Coburger prosecution
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Speaker 1: that the two surviving roommates let's see their names, Nicole
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Speaker 1: Parton joining me crime online dot Com investigative reporter, the
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Speaker 1: two survivors, Nicole, they're not commenting on this at all,
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Speaker 1: are they.
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Speaker 6: They are not They're not commenting at all. And you
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Speaker 6: know that the timeline of what's being leaked doesn't line up.
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Speaker 6: We know that one survivor says, I woke up around
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Speaker 6: four and thought I heard something. I thought it was
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Speaker 6: Kayley and the dog. Now this leaked report is saying
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Speaker 6: that the girls were awake. The survivors were all awake
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Speaker 6: four four thirty, and they were texting each other. So
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Speaker 6: none of it is consistent with the original reports that
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Speaker 6: came out as far as what the survivors heard.
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Speaker 1: Hey Jo Scott, before you want run run to your class,
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. We'll circle back to
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Speaker 1: whether that's true or not. But I have fate that
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Speaker 1: gonsolve this is telling the truth as he knows it.
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Speaker 1: More may come out at trial and maybe he's wrong
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Speaker 1: in the end, but I think he's selling the truth
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Speaker 1: as he knows it on the facts he's being given.
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Speaker 1: But now we're finding out that the state wants a
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Speaker 1: lot more from Amazon, and not just the Christmas list.
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Speaker 1: Take a listening five seven seven kre em.
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Speaker 7: Newly released court documents are revealing that police in the
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Speaker 7: Moscow murders case are asking for information from several big
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Speaker 7: tech companies the search warrants we're obtained over the summer,
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Speaker 7: and are asking for the suspect in this case, Brian
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Speaker 7: Coberger's customer information on Amazon, Apple, and PayPal. Prosecutors are
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Speaker 7: asking for Amazon for their information to see if Coburger
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Speaker 7: bought feud or was recommended any knives on their website.
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Speaker 7: Police believe that a specific type of knife was used
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Speaker 7: to commit the murders. A knife sheath with Coburger's DNA
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Speaker 7: was found at the crime scene, but the murder weapon
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Speaker 7: itself has still not been found.
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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. You know what's interesting right there,
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Speaker 1: and Joe Scott, I'm going to get into it with
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Speaker 1: you about why the knife knife sheath is so important.
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Speaker 1: They also want all of his clicks, all of his clicks.
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Speaker 1: You know how I love going through defenise google searches,
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Speaker 1: not just their Google searches, but everything they served. I
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Speaker 1: want to find out what they're ordering, what they're watching,
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Speaker 1: what they're reading, what they're interested in, because it's you know,
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Speaker 1: the eyes are the window to the soul. Bs I say,
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Speaker 1: your search history is the window to your soul, what
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Speaker 1: you're interested in. Yeah, I swear there's something like that
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Speaker 1: in the Bible that where your thoughts are, where your
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Speaker 1: heart is, so are your actions? Right. I'm going to
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Speaker 1: find out everything I can about Coburger and the clicks,
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Speaker 1: the Amazon clicks. How many dozens of knives do you
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Speaker 1: think he looked at before he ordered that one? And
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Speaker 1: did the sheath come with it? Was this separate? Because
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Speaker 1: you know he's pretty anal right, Joe Scott, what am
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Speaker 1: I going to learn in all those clicks?
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Speaker 3: The narrowing of a search, just like we do if
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Speaker 3: we're working a case. He's looking for something specifically. And
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Speaker 3: let me lay this on you, my wife, Kim.
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Speaker 1: You know you can thank her for everything to come
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Speaker 1: by the way I.
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Speaker 3: Know, and God, God bless her for putting up with me,
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Speaker 3: I said, I said, Darling, I want one of these knives.
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Speaker 3: She said, done. Guess what. She went to Amazon. I
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Speaker 3: had it in a day and a half.
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Speaker 1: Why do you want one of those knives so you
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Speaker 1: can examine it?
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Speaker 3: Yes, I do, and I have it. And what I
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Speaker 3: wanted was the knife so I could appreciate I appreciate
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Speaker 3: the weight I've held. This is a Cabar knife and
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Speaker 3: it's specifically a us MC.
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Speaker 1: Guess what one of those knives so I can look
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Speaker 1: at it. I was going to spring it on you.
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Speaker 3: Later, but darn, I didn't mean to bury the lead
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Speaker 3: you to.
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Speaker 8: Lawns.
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Speaker 9: Go ahead, knife, I'm going to check the searches of both.
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Speaker 3: I wanted to feel the weight of it. I did,
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Speaker 3: and and but handle well. I wanted to understand the
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Speaker 3: functionality of the sheath. And there's something I learned from
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Speaker 3: the sheath, Nancy, because a lot of has been made
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Speaker 3: over this, the fact that it's found in the bed.
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Speaker 3: You've got this DNA that's adjacent to the snap. We
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Speaker 3: don't know specifically where on the snap. I have my
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Speaker 3: suspicions about it.
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Speaker 1: Oh whoa, you just can't drop a bomb like that
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Speaker 1: on I have my suspicions. I think that the DNA
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Speaker 1: was right where. Imagine a snap and you push it,
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Speaker 1: yes and open it, That's obviously where the DNA is
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Speaker 1: going to be.
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Speaker 3: I think the opening part is the most significant because
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Speaker 3: on the under the underside of the button, it's got
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Speaker 3: an edge there, and I think that as you move
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Speaker 3: that button, you click it and it makes a distinctive pop, Nancy,
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Speaker 3: it could break off skin cells right there. I think
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Speaker 3: that this is probably touched DNA. But what's more important
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Speaker 3: to me, what tells us, what really gives us an
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Speaker 3: insight into this case, Nancy, is that this sheath comes
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Speaker 3: equipped with a belt holder. And why that is important
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Speaker 3: is the fact that if you're so prepared, you thought
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Speaker 3: this thing out, this massacre.
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Speaker 1: Well, he bought it seven months ahead of time, so
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Speaker 1: he was thinking about something he didn't need that teaching
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Speaker 1: his classes.
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Speaker 3: Why in the hell don't you have a belt on.
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Speaker 3: Why don't you have a belt on that secures this knife?
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Speaker 3: Why is it that you have left the sheath there
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Speaker 3: at the scene. Maybe you've prepped. We've heard he's dressed
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Speaker 3: all in black. Did you not have the ability to
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Speaker 3: put on a belt? Are you wearing something that doesn't
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Speaker 3: have belt loops, like a pair of pants. Are you
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Speaker 3: wearing coveralls?
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Speaker 1: What if he had it on the loop of the
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Speaker 1: pants and it came disattached.
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Speaker 3: It could have been. And we don't know anything about
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Speaker 3: the nature of the sheees either, you know, like, is
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Speaker 3: the loop the attachment loop on the sheet itself? Is it?
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Speaker 3: Is it compromise structurally in some way? Has it been
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Speaker 3: torn or broken? We don't know that. But I think
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Speaker 3: that it's a reasonable question to say, why don't you
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Speaker 3: have this thing secured on your belt? I was in
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Speaker 3: the military. I had a knife in the military. It
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Speaker 3: was always secured on my person. I'd get my butt
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Speaker 3: shewed out if I did. Why. And they're made that way,
17:03
Speaker 3: and k bars are made that way. Marine Corps carried
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Speaker 3: them for years and years. They are made to be
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Speaker 3: secured on your person. That sheet was not. It was
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Speaker 3: found at the scene, and you have to.
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Speaker 1: Think about going into battle like a marine. They don't
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Speaker 1: want their hands fuls. First thing I learned walking through
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Speaker 1: the projects trying to find witnesses walking in downtown inner
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Speaker 1: city Atlanta. You want your hands free. You don't want
17:27
Speaker 1: you holding your pocketbook or holding your No, just like
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Speaker 1: this scenario, you need the knife attached to you if
17:35
Speaker 1: you're going into battle. I can just see him doing that.
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Speaker 1: Why would he walk into this home holding the knife,
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Speaker 1: holding the sheath? You're right, You're absolutely right. But I
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Speaker 1: believe that you were not responsive because my question was
17:50
Speaker 1: about the clicks. I thoroughly enjoyed your conversation about the
17:54
Speaker 1: belt loop. But can we get back to what we
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Speaker 1: can learn from the cliques? Because Aaron start joining me,
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Speaker 1: psychologist joining us out of New York TV radio, trauma
18:04
Speaker 1: expert at Karenstark dot com, Karen with a See, Karen,
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Speaker 1: this guy is so anal. What are we going to
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Speaker 1: learn from all those cliques? We're going to learn so much?
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Speaker 9: Well, because he's so, he's anal. He's organized and obsessed, right, Nancy,
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Speaker 9: So he's looking at knives. I wouldn't be shocked if
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Speaker 9: he wasn't looking at all different types of knives and
18:26
Speaker 9: which would be the best one to use. And maybe
18:29
Speaker 9: he's even looking at what he's going to wear, So
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Speaker 9: he's looking at clothing that's black because support he's been reported.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that? Everyone dresses up like a ninja.
18:41
Speaker 1: They've seen way too many action movies. Go ahead, Karen Stark.
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Speaker 9: They want to they want to blend into the night, right.
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Speaker 9: I mean this this was we're laughing, but this for
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Speaker 9: him was a project and a really big deal.
18:55
Speaker 1: I'm not laughing, Yeah, I mean, well it's so so.
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Speaker 9: The truth is, there's so much to be gained from
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Speaker 9: the clicks, right, because whether it's the clothing, whether it's
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Speaker 9: the knife, whether it's the shoes he's going to wear.
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Speaker 9: He thought about every single one of these things. This
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Speaker 9: is an intense guy who planned this out very carefully.
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Speaker 9: Think of how quickly he did it.
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Speaker 1: Right, he really did. And this knife and knife sheath
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Speaker 1: is Joe Scott Morgan and I were just talking about
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Speaker 1: We're purchased seven months prior. I want to go to
19:30
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna. You know him well from his YouTube channel
19:33
Speaker 1: The Interview Room, but he is the director at the
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Speaker 1: Cold Case Foundation. Former homicide detective Over three hundred investigations
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Speaker 1: under his belt. You can also find him at cold
19:43
Speaker 1: Casefoundation dot org. Chris, can we just talk about the clicks?
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Speaker 1: What would you expect to find? Because you heard the
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Speaker 1: Knees report from our forensic kr E M. The search
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Speaker 1: warrants were obtained over the summer. They want all the
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Speaker 1: customer information on Amazon, Apple and PayPal, so apparently that's
20:04
Speaker 1: what they found on his phone. They don't want just
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Speaker 1: what he ordered, but they want all of his clicks,
20:12
Speaker 1: everything he did. Now, the knife is obviously super important.
20:18
Speaker 1: Anything we can find about his searching for a particular
20:22
Speaker 1: kind of knife. Why take a listen to our friends
20:25
Speaker 1: at Daily Mail.
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Speaker 10: The knife sheath was also dropped to the right of
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Speaker 10: Mattie's body, with the killer's DNA on the snap.
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Speaker 1: That always felt to me like this is where the
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Speaker 1: murders began.
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Speaker 10: That the killer snuck in, unsnapped the sheath and pulled
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Speaker 10: the knife out for the first time, dropping the sheath
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Speaker 10: in the process, effectively marking his start point. Now, the
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Speaker 10: sheath was discovered by investigators on the mattress partially underneath
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Speaker 10: of Mattie's body, So I really do think he dropped
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Speaker 10: it right when he hand sheath the knife for the
20:51
Speaker 10: first time.
20:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Caitlin Becker. She's absolutely right. So Chris McDonough
20:56
Speaker 1: joining us from the interview room, what are we going
20:59
Speaker 1: to learn in those clicks?
21:00
Speaker 4: See, every one of those cliques individually will reveal thoughts, feelings,
21:05
Speaker 4: and emotions, and that will turn possibilities into probabilities.
21:09
Speaker 1: What do you mean, how can a click on Amazon
21:12
Speaker 1: or PayPal reveal your thoughts, feelings, and emotions.
21:17
Speaker 4: Because that's really the definition of behavior. And so by
21:22
Speaker 4: engineering or reverse engineering all of that movement that Coburger
21:26
Speaker 4: was making pre incident by killing these college students here,
21:33
Speaker 4: it gives us an insight into where he was going
21:36
Speaker 4: and how he was going to get there. And that
21:39
Speaker 4: is extremely important not only for the trial coming up,
21:43
Speaker 4: as you know more than anybody, but also for the
21:46
Speaker 4: investigators to continue to move this investigation forward. I think
21:51
Speaker 4: we forget this investigation is still moving. I don't think
21:55
Speaker 4: they have all of all the eggs in the basket yet.
22:00
Speaker 4: This is a good example of listening to this analysis
22:04
Speaker 4: in this panel.
22:05
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
22:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is amazing.
22:08
Speaker 1: I was going to say, we know, Chris, they do
22:10
Speaker 1: have more information. We're on the outside looking in. Joe
22:13
Speaker 1: Scott was saying this earlier, and he's right. The state
22:16
Speaker 1: or the defense has no duty to tell us anything.
22:20
Speaker 1: They're working in their cases, or at least they'd better
22:22
Speaker 1: be working their cases. But I like what you just said,
22:25
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonod, that every clique shows your thoughts, your feelings
22:29
Speaker 1: and your emotions. When you first said that, I thought,
22:32
Speaker 1: no way, because if you look at what I do
22:34
Speaker 1: online Instacart, green vegetables, this, that Amazon sucks for John David,
22:44
Speaker 1: a sweatshirt of this, that it's the same thing over
22:48
Speaker 1: and over every day. But that does reveal my thoughts,
22:53
Speaker 1: my feelings and my emotions. I'm one of those people
22:56
Speaker 1: that believe if you want to be close to your children,
22:59
Speaker 1: make it high and what brings people together better than
23:03
Speaker 1: a good supper. Nothing. So that's my time and I
23:08
Speaker 1: plan it, and that's where my feelings and my thoughts
23:12
Speaker 1: and my emotions are when I'm not working a case
23:15
Speaker 1: like this. So what you just said is actually really revealing.
23:21
Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking about Jackie. What was the
23:24
Speaker 1: name of the lady first named Anne with an E,
23:28
Speaker 1: New England. The husband said she was leaving for the airport. Yes, Anna, Anna, Ana, Yes,
23:36
Speaker 1: do you remember him? Just gave myself chills? Do you
23:40
Speaker 1: remember his searches? There are enough? See you're laughing. It
23:45
Speaker 1: actually makes my stomach hurt. How long does it take?
23:49
Speaker 3: You know?
23:50
Speaker 1: How long will the dead body smell? How do I
23:53
Speaker 1: do this? How do I do that? Is there evidence
23:55
Speaker 1: somebody goes to the airport? Is there evidence somebody gets
23:58
Speaker 1: on a plane? Or does I mean revealed everything? And
24:03
Speaker 1: with me right now to speak to this issue. A
24:08
Speaker 1: name you know or should know well, Lee Reeber, mobile
24:13
Speaker 1: device forensic expert CEO Washington forensics author, Mobile Forensic Investigations,
24:21
Speaker 1: Mobile Forensic Investigations. That's a book, Lee Reaber.
24:26
Speaker 4: Hey, everybody loves.
24:28
Speaker 1: And is that a book? You wrote a book, Mobile
24:31
Speaker 1: Forensic Investigations.
24:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, a couple of books.
24:36
Speaker 1: I've got to read this. You know a lot of
24:38
Speaker 1: people want to read the top the bestseller list off
24:40
Speaker 1: the New York Times. I want to read Mobile Forensic Investigations.
24:44
Speaker 1: Oh and your host to a podcast, Forensic Happy Hour, Boy,
24:48
Speaker 1: you're busy. Thank you for making time with us for us.
24:51
Speaker 1: Lee Reaber, explain to me how this is happening and
24:57
Speaker 1: the significance of these searches and what else where you
25:00
Speaker 1: think we're going.
25:01
Speaker 4: To find No, I think I think the digital footprint
25:04
Speaker 4: this is going to be huge for this case.
25:06
Speaker 1: Now, remember you're speaking to a bunch of ludites like me.
25:09
Speaker 1: Slow down, man, exactly.
25:11
Speaker 4: So you know people people today, right, the searches that
25:15
Speaker 4: they use. I love the you know, trying to and
25:19
Speaker 4: I suffer for your kids, But you know people, and
25:21
Speaker 4: you start thinking about your own searches on either Amazon
25:25
Speaker 4: or any search engine.
25:27
Speaker 1: Oh my stars, I looked at my husband's searches. It
25:30
Speaker 1: was horrible. My eyes started bleeding. It's all about mergers
25:35
Speaker 1: and acquisitions and business stories out of the Wall Street Journal.
25:38
Speaker 1: I nearly fell over. I'm not going to do that
25:41
Speaker 1: again for a while. Go ahead.
25:42
Speaker 4: But what's important as well is if we look back
25:45
Speaker 4: at those text messages you know that allegedly you know,
25:49
Speaker 4: during the during the crime, right, that they had between
25:51
Speaker 4: the two roommates. What's important to that is you look
25:54
Speaker 4: at now a timeline.
25:55
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not accepting that. Number one. I'm not saying
25:59
Speaker 1: that those texts men just happened during the attacks. I'm
26:02
Speaker 1: saying somebody reported that the and the father said that
26:05
Speaker 1: didn't happen.
26:06
Speaker 4: What I'm saying is we need to take those along
26:08
Speaker 4: with think about the impertainment center that's within a car.
26:12
Speaker 4: Yeah right, that cars has an aoundational system and it's
26:17
Speaker 4: built within it. Even if you're not going and navigating
26:20
Speaker 4: to a point, it's still tracking your location. It's still
26:23
Speaker 4: showing where you're at. He allegedly, you know, turned his
26:27
Speaker 4: phone off. Well, you can't turn the car off.
26:29
Speaker 1: Oh hold on, hold on, just while you're let me
26:31
Speaker 1: follow up point you're saying, Nicole, partner with me Clime
26:33
Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole. While you're sitting there,
26:36
Speaker 1: can you find out if his Alantra I think I
26:40
Speaker 1: know that make and model the year. I'm thinking it
26:44
Speaker 1: was a twenty one. But that said, can you see, Nicole,
26:47
Speaker 1: if it had a NAV system. You may already know that.
26:50
Speaker 1: Knowing you, you do. But while Lee Reber is talking,
26:52
Speaker 1: can you look that up? Please? Okay, Lee Reber go ahead?
26:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, going back to you, in twenty eleven, Hundai
27:00
Speaker 4: had a NAV system that was still Withinnish.
27:04
Speaker 3: Both of those cars come with this.
27:06
Speaker 4: I'm not quite sure on the year of what he had. However,
27:09
Speaker 4: you know, looking at that information, and now the defense
27:13
Speaker 4: is saying, well, he took lots of night tribes, you know,
27:16
Speaker 4: trying to do that. Well, I think you'll be able
27:18
Speaker 4: to tell that within that impertainment center. And I am assuming.
27:23
Speaker 1: Okay, well say you're you're I'm drinking from the water hydrant.
27:27
Speaker 1: The fire hydrant again is too much, too fast weight?
27:30
Speaker 1: You're right, you know, do you know, Lee Reeber? What
27:34
Speaker 1: was my next topic of discussion, which, of course my
27:37
Speaker 1: little map I make out for our discussions. We never
27:40
Speaker 1: stick to that. But what about his alibi? How can
27:44
Speaker 1: we prove didn't we talk about that right before?
27:47
Speaker 5: You there?
27:47
Speaker 1: Prove or disprove his alibi? And you're so right, why
27:51
Speaker 1: didn't we think of that? You know what? Brilliant? Brilliant?
27:56
Speaker 1: So if the Alantros have had nav system since two
27:59
Speaker 1: thousand and eleven, we're totally if they keep the information
28:03
Speaker 1: going back that far, we can look at it and
28:06
Speaker 1: find out if that's true as the claiment always went
28:08
Speaker 1: by himself. Lee, ybro, that's convenient. You're absolutely right, Okay,
28:12
Speaker 1: go ahead.
28:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a computer system, you know, able to remove that.
28:16
Speaker 4: There's plenty of forensic software that allows the ability to
28:20
Speaker 4: investigate that data.
28:22
Speaker 8: And we haven't even.
28:23
Speaker 4: Talked about as well. There's a ring camera that was
28:26
Speaker 4: able to capture something across from across the street in
28:32
Speaker 4: initial report. So you know, now you have searches, you
28:36
Speaker 4: have traveled with a vehicle, you have text messages that
28:40
Speaker 4: might have been occurring at that time. I think again
28:44
Speaker 4: now taking the digital life right, a digital footprint of
28:48
Speaker 4: an individual or the individuals and victims and those survivors,
28:52
Speaker 4: I think there's a ton of data that's going to
28:55
Speaker 4: come up.
28:56
Speaker 3: A trail.
29:10
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace, Tara Malik partner and Smith
29:19
Speaker 1: and Malick high profile lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction.
29:23
Speaker 1: When you try a case, I don't know if you
29:25
Speaker 1: were like me, I had to quote marshal my evidence.
29:30
Speaker 1: I had to figure out what exhibit goes with this question?
29:35
Speaker 1: What do I have to prove this point? What do
29:37
Speaker 1: I have to prove this point? Be it eyewitness testimony,
29:39
Speaker 1: a fingerprint and a hair or whatever. You have to
29:42
Speaker 1: marshal your evidence if you want to win that hour amount.
29:45
Speaker 1: If not, you can just go and WILLI neillion. But
29:48
Speaker 1: one I don't think a lot of people have picked
29:50
Speaker 1: up on he said, the Alantra dating back to twenty
29:54
Speaker 1: eleven has an as system. So this alibi, that an
29:59
Speaker 1: Tayler the defense law your eyes cooked up and thrown
30:01
Speaker 1: at us. That can be proven or disproven very easily.
30:04
Speaker 5: Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, and I agree with you.
30:08
Speaker 5: I mean, when you're putting a case together for trial,
30:11
Speaker 5: you don't want to take the shotgun approach, just going
30:13
Speaker 5: in there and asking a bunch of, you know, random questions.
30:17
Speaker 1: And I once, I once worked for a.
30:20
Speaker 5: Judge who called it the Christopher Columbus approach.
30:23
Speaker 1: To trial, which is you get.
30:25
Speaker 5: You get out of the you know, council's table, you
30:28
Speaker 5: walk towards the witness, you ask a bunch of questions,
30:30
Speaker 5: and you sit back down again. You don't know where
30:32
Speaker 5: you've been, and you don't know where you ended up
30:34
Speaker 5: and where you're going, and.
30:36
Speaker 1: You accidentally landed on America looking for a trade route.
30:40
Speaker 5: That's right, don't do that.
30:42
Speaker 4: And so you're right.
30:43
Speaker 5: You have to organize your evidence in a way under
30:46
Speaker 5: each of the elements that you have to prove, and
30:49
Speaker 5: how you do that, you know, there's a variety of
30:50
Speaker 5: different ways. But but you know, Lee is right. I mean,
30:54
Speaker 5: there's there's a lot of ways that this alibi could
30:58
Speaker 5: be disproved, including you the navigation system. And and that's
31:02
Speaker 5: the reason why, you know, the law requires you, when
31:08
Speaker 5: you're going to claim an alibi, to provide enough information
31:13
Speaker 5: where it gives the other side, where it gives the
31:16
Speaker 5: prosecution the ability to figure out what they need or
31:19
Speaker 5: what they don't need to either confirm that that alibi
31:23
Speaker 5: in fact is true or to disprove it because we
31:27
Speaker 5: don't do you know, guerrilla warfare in trial. It's not
31:30
Speaker 5: trial by surprise here. And the fact that the you know,
31:34
Speaker 5: it took so much to get the defense to even
31:36
Speaker 5: provide and meet the requirements of providing an alibi, you know,
31:43
Speaker 5: to me means that you know there's something fishy going
31:45
Speaker 5: on here.
31:46
Speaker 1: Well, there's another thing, Nicole Parton joining me Crime online
31:50
Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter. Isn't it true that the state
31:55
Speaker 1: has already nailed down co worker's payings from his phone
32:01
Speaker 1: the night of the murders. If they could do that,
32:06
Speaker 1: couldn't they ping all the other nights he claims he
32:09
Speaker 1: was out on night drives?
32:11
Speaker 6: Absolutely, they have already, they claim they have already pinged
32:15
Speaker 6: those they know exactly where he was, and you're absolutely right.
32:19
Speaker 6: Even on the base model of his car, that GPS
32:24
Speaker 6: system is always engaged, so wherever he was supposedly driving around,
32:30
Speaker 6: we can see that right on the car.
32:32
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking everything through. What Oh, here's another thing.
32:35
Speaker 1: There's not a thing coburger can do about getting all
32:39
Speaker 1: that information from Amazon and PayPal and Apple pay There's
32:45
Speaker 1: no way they're going to be able to suppress it.
32:49
Speaker 1: Why take a listen to our friend Jules Epstein, Temple
32:54
Speaker 1: law professor.
32:55
Speaker 8: I should add here, nobody has a right to object
32:59
Speaker 8: to a certain warrant directed to Amazon. We don't own
33:03
Speaker 8: that private information. Under the United States Supreme Court case law,
33:09
Speaker 8: when you give information to a third party, you share
33:14
Speaker 8: your credit card, you make purchases, and they keep that information.
33:19
Speaker 8: It's not yours. And so there is no absolute privacy
33:24
Speaker 8: interest where you can say, hey, my rights were violated
33:27
Speaker 8: when you search my Amazon account.
33:29
Speaker 1: It's just not that there's no standing. For instance, say
33:34
Speaker 1: a cop goes and breaks down Jackie's front door and
33:39
Speaker 1: finds her potstash. FYI, she doesn't smoke pot. I can't
33:45
Speaker 1: go into court and go I want that's the president
33:48
Speaker 1: of the Fourth Amendment you'd have a warrant. I don't
33:49
Speaker 1: have what we call it standing, in other words, no
33:52
Speaker 1: leg to stand on. It's not my place. They wrote
33:55
Speaker 1: down the door to same thing here with Amazon. There's
34:00
Speaker 1: no way, there's no complaint that he can make that
34:04
Speaker 1: any of that evidence, whatever it may be, can be suppressed.
34:08
Speaker 1: So we're not going to get an argument out of that.
34:12
Speaker 1: The trial date of October two obviously has come and gone.
34:18
Speaker 1: So what are we going to do now? When will
34:21
Speaker 1: it go to trial? I believe that a lot of
34:25
Speaker 1: electronic evidence is still being amassed, and while they are
34:31
Speaker 1: gathering that evidence, we have recently heard from Stacy Chapin.
34:39
Speaker 1: This is Ethan's mother.
34:42
Speaker 11: Listen, my name is Stacy Chapin, and I'm Ethan's mom.
34:48
Speaker 11: And I actually didn't sit through it because it's too
34:52
Speaker 11: hard to watch. But I do want all of you
34:54
Speaker 11: to know that these were four of the greatest kids,
34:58
Speaker 11: and that all of the great things you read about
35:00
Speaker 11: them is legitimately true.
35:03
Speaker 3: And I can.
35:04
Speaker 12: Speak on behalf of my own son, who was an
35:08
Speaker 12: incredible human. Can we miss them a little terribly? But
35:14
Speaker 12: it's a very strange situation to be I'm not actually
35:17
Speaker 12: not a true crime follower, but I am now thrust
35:21
Speaker 12: into that a center of something that has become pretty incredible.
35:26
Speaker 12: But anyways, don't forget these kids.
35:29
Speaker 1: I appreciate.
35:30
Speaker 12: I did watch the beginning where you spoke a little
35:32
Speaker 12: bit on behalf of all four kids, and they truly
35:35
Speaker 12: they're amazing. They were amazing, amazing kids in the prime
35:40
Speaker 12: of their life.
35:41
Speaker 3: So that's all I just setting.
35:44
Speaker 1: I'm at Stacy at crime con and what lovely, warm, brilliant,
35:52
Speaker 1: articulate person. Still struggling, still making how but remember she
36:00
Speaker 1: has other children and she's trying to be strong for them.
36:05
Speaker 1: Nicole Parton joining me crime online dot Com investigative reporter.
36:09
Speaker 1: She is especially angry about people that suggested that this
36:14
Speaker 1: was somehow a murder suicide by Ethan. Nothing we've hurt
36:19
Speaker 1: suggests that is true.
36:21
Speaker 6: Nothing at all. And I was there when she stood
36:24
Speaker 6: up and spoke and talk about heart moving and heart felt.
36:29
Speaker 6: I understand totally why she would be angry at these
36:33
Speaker 6: outright lies and allegations. Ethan was completely innocent in all
36:38
Speaker 6: of this, and as a mother, both of us can
36:42
Speaker 6: definitely relate to the heartbreak she must be feeling.
36:45
Speaker 1: You know, Chris McDonough I think part of it is
36:48
Speaker 1: the intense speculation about what happened because so much, so
36:51
Speaker 1: many of the facts are shrouded in mystery, and they
36:54
Speaker 1: may remain shrouded if the judge closes the courtroom to cameras.
36:58
Speaker 4: You know what a powerful, powerful message she gave from
37:04
Speaker 4: not only the a you know, the fact that she
37:08
Speaker 4: spoke with authenticity, and the pain and the depth that
37:11
Speaker 4: you could hear and feel that moment she presented the messaging.
37:18
Speaker 4: It reminds all of us of our responsibility to just,
37:24
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes slow down and take a look at
37:28
Speaker 4: what's happening, not only in a social media aspect, in
37:31
Speaker 4: terms of where we are as a society and how
37:35
Speaker 4: you know, quickly we can judge and make comments like
37:38
Speaker 4: that about a young man you know, doing this, and
37:41
Speaker 4: when in fact he's the actual victim. I understand that, Nancy,
37:46
Speaker 4: You understand.
37:47
Speaker 1: That, Oh I do. Chris, You're so right. I've had
37:50
Speaker 1: so many stories spin out about my fiancee case murder
37:55
Speaker 1: that he was at a liquor store. Nothing can be
37:58
Speaker 1: further from the truth. Went out at lunchtime to go
38:01
Speaker 1: get other people's soft drinks to take back to a
38:03
Speaker 1: construction site. To this, to that, And I remember the
38:08
Speaker 1: first time I ever spoke about that publicly. It was
38:11
Speaker 1: with Larry King and I the Blue. He asked me
38:13
Speaker 1: the date, and I remember it, of course to August
38:16
Speaker 1: the sixth, but I blanked on the year. Can I
38:20
Speaker 1: tell you all the hate I got because I had
38:23
Speaker 1: the year wrong and it got spun out to where
38:28
Speaker 1: just all kind of wild, crazy conspiracy speculation, and it
38:34
Speaker 1: was very hurtful, much less what Ethan's mother is going
38:40
Speaker 1: through with people in their evil tales about how this
38:44
Speaker 1: was a murder suicide. That is not true.
38:46
Speaker 4: It's unbelievable that it would even come to that messaging,
38:51
Speaker 4: because it does. It continues to be the step of
38:55
Speaker 4: pain that this family will go through all the way
38:59
Speaker 4: through the trial, and quite frankly, even the impact statements
39:03
Speaker 4: will never change the reality of their daily life. So
39:08
Speaker 4: you know, my heart goes out to them, and it's
39:10
Speaker 4: this family.
39:11
Speaker 1: It really really does the pain these families have been
39:14
Speaker 1: going through. Karen start, What is wrong with people? Why
39:18
Speaker 1: do they intentionally spend out lies, hurtful lies like that
39:24
Speaker 1: this Idahey murders or a murder suicide and Ethan was
39:30
Speaker 1: the purpose. That's not true. Can you imagine the pain
39:34
Speaker 1: this is causing his family.
39:36
Speaker 9: And you can hear it in her voice. Fancy the pain.
39:39
Speaker 9: Of course, the pain will always be there. And people
39:43
Speaker 9: are good and bad, right, I mean, there are wonderful
39:46
Speaker 9: people in the world and there are evil people in
39:49
Speaker 9: the world. And especially now that there is social media,
39:53
Speaker 9: people can just comment anonymously and start rumors and spread
39:58
Speaker 9: them and they actually get something from it. They feel
40:03
Speaker 9: good about doing that, even though it's hard to comprehend,
40:06
Speaker 9: and so we have to be really careful about paying
40:11
Speaker 9: attention to those kind of rumors that are just evil
40:15
Speaker 9: and hurtful and terrible to the families involved.
40:19
Speaker 1: Guys, we are waiting for a new trial date as
40:23
Speaker 1: a state, and the defense continues to amass evidence for
40:27
Speaker 1: their cases. Goodbye friend,