Latest / New Worlder / Episode #121: Lucio and Pablo Usobiaga

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Episode #121: Lucio and Pablo Usobiaga · New Worlder

• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, I'm Nicholas Gill and this is the New Worlder podcast.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:52
  This is the last episode of the year and I want to try and take
• 0:59
  you somewhere.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Something that will stay with you going into 2026.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to try to imagine an ancient lake bed.
• 1:10
  where the decomposing aquatic life at its bottom is piled up
• 1:15
  within the lake and
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: mixed with branches and other organic material to form islands.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Now imagine farming on those islands.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine these farms being incredibly productive.
• 1:27
  So productive that the crops grown on them could feed hundreds
• 1:31
  of thousands of people.
• 1:33
  Not only do they feed at an incredible scale without depleting
• 1:37
  the nutrients in the
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: soil,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: but they encourage additional life.
• 1:42
  With intervention by humans becoming part of the ecosystem
• 1:46
  rather than dominating
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: it,
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: they actually encourage biodiversity.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds like the future, right?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 1:56
  Would it blow your mind to know that these farm islands were
• 1:59
  actually created 2,000
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: years ago in what is present day Mexico City?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's shocking, right?
• 2:08
  Would it blow your mind even more if you know they still exist
• 2:11
  to this very day?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_03: These farms are called chinampas,
• 2:16
  and the knowledge that was developed there and expanded on
• 2:19
  throughout the past
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: 2,000 years continues in a place called Xochimilco,
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: which is within the limits of Mexico City.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Today's guests are the brothers Lucio and Pablo Usobiaga,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: who founded Arca Tierra,
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: which is a farm network that includes Chinampas farmers,
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: as well as their own farm,
• 2:38
  and farms from other traditional agricultural systems in and
• 2:41
  around Mexico City and
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Central Mexico.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: They also opened the zero-waste restaurant Baldio in 2024,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: alongside the British chef Douglas McMaster of Silo.
• 2:56
  What these guys are doing and how they are doing it should not
• 2:58
  be underestimated.
• 3:00
  They are trying to change the conversation around words like
• 3:04
  peasant and cappuccino
• 3:05
  and turn these rural farmers into the role models we should all
• 3:09
  look up to.
• 3:10
  They are creating a vibrant alternative network of farmers and
• 3:14
  collaborators that
• 3:15
  places value on ancestral agricultural systems and those that
• 3:20
  are protecting them.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: What's important to take away from this interview,
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: and I want you to think about it into the new year,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: is how hopeful they are.
• 3:31
  They are blunt about the challenges ahead and all the awful
• 3:34
  things that will happen
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: in the near future,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_03: but they believe in what they are doing.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: They believe in these farmers and these ancient agricultural systems.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: They understand what it's going to take to bring them back.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: I hope that by listening to people like Lucio and Pablo, you do as well.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: We really can do this, all of us, together.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Please subscribe to the newsletter if you haven't already.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Just go to newworlder.com or look for New Order on Substack.
• 4:06
  We exist outside the mainstream media system,
• 4:09
  so your support makes all of this possible.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: And for video episodes, check us out on youtube.com slash newworlder.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: And please subscribe, like us, and share us.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: It sounds redundant.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: I say it on repeat every episode, but it really does make a difference.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: Enjoy the show.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Where are you guys at now?
• 4:28
  We're in a small office upstairs from the Baldillo prep kitchen
• 4:34
  and the Arcatierra commissary.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a whole building with the operation from both projects.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so Baldillo and the Arcatierra offices are all in the same place.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I didn't realize that.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: We share the same warehouse and production site.
• 4:59
  And it's very well located in terms of the geography of Mexico
• 5:04
  City and the roads.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's very in the center of the city.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have the prep kitchen.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: We have a small fermentation lab.
• 5:19
  the cooling chamber,
• 5:21
  and here's where all the produce from the Yarka Tierra network
• 5:25
  arrives.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: it's a very efficient logistic,
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: and we're,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: depends on the traffic,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: but no more than 10 minutes away from Valdío.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: Understood.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pleasure to meet you.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: Lucio, actually, I think I met you like 10 years ago or something.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: I went to the Chinampas with Osvaldo Oliva,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: from Lorea.
• 5:49
  I was writing a story about him,
• 5:51
  and he was buying produce from the Chinampas.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: And we went there.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure you were there.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pretty sure it was before Pablo was a part of it.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm fairly certain we met.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: And just now seeing your face, I'm almost certain now.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure we do.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: You probably don't remember me.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: But it's just like you've had millions of visitors at this point.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I'm pretty sure we met once years ago.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it blew my mind what you guys are
• 6:19
  doing there and I've been watching how it's evolved over the
• 6:22
  years and now with
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: Balbio and what you're doing with the restaurant.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, it's really incredible.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm happy you guys are here and we're able to talk.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Lucio and Paolo here, Juliana from a rainy LA today.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: maybe in relation to that or even before that,
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a brief timeline of your projects because there is Arca Tierra
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's the chinampas that are the origin of everything.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then Baldillo and how these platforms interact.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll unpack that.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 6:56
  maybe to start with a brief timeline and maybe defining the
• 7:01
  chinampas for everyone,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: everyone that doesn't know what they are.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, the first project started in 2009 with some friends.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: We had a store.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: We sold organic produce in Mexico City.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And when we started looking for
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: for farmers.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: We came to Xochimilco and met another person who already had a business.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: He worked with farmers in Xochimilco.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: We started sourcing with him from the farmers.
• 7:35
  But it turned out that this person was really buying from the
• 7:39
  big market and lying
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: to restaurants.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't a very honest person.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that first project was very short-lived.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then in 2011, we started Yolcan, like the predecessor of Arca Tierra.
• 7:58
  And we started farming ourselves,
• 8:00
  working with chinamperos,
• 8:01
  with farmers from Xochimilco.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: and then working with farmers from Hidalgo and Estado de Mexico,
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: from states neighboring Mexico City.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: First of all,
• 8:12
  we started to source in Xochemilco and any other places and
• 8:17
  selling to restaurants.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: We were very lucky because the restaurant trend,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: like buying local and working with farmers had begun in Mexico City.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: So yes,
• 8:31
  some chefs were very glad to find us and they could source
• 8:37
  local produce and also
• 8:38
  tell the story about Xochimilco being such an important place
• 8:42
  in the city.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that gave us a kickstart and some
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: some reputation of working in a particular way with farmers.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Then we started in 2014 with our CSA,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: with our boxes,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: also working with farmers in other parts of Mexico.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Then in 2018, we started our non-profit
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: to improve our assistance to farmers in terms of capacity building,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: training,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: seed storage,
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: seeds,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: cultural activities.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Then ARCA started with my brother, 2020.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: During the pandemic, we planned everything.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Since ARCA Tierra,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: we've grown a lot in all respects,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: working with more farmers,
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: distributing to more people,
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then Baldillo started in 2024 in August, a bit more than a year ago.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was built on the structure of Arca Tierra, all the farming network.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: But we had to also source meat, fish, grains, oil.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that was new to us.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it was built on Arca Tierra.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: my brother's experience in Café de Nadie,
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: a bar in Mexico City,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: a wonderful bar,
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: and Douglas McMaster's and Max McLean's experience in Silo in London.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, that's pretty much the timeline.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great summary.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think
• 10:30
  What would be good is for everyone out there to understand what
• 10:34
  exactly are the
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_03: chinampas and why they are important.
• 10:38
  The chinampas are these islands built on top of a wetland that
• 10:45
  sits in part of Mexico City.
• 10:48
  To understand the chinampas,
• 10:49
  we have to understand the geography of Mexico City.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: We're in an endorake basin.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a basin that doesn't have a natural outflow of water.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: So sort of lakes were formed in wetland systems.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the southern lakes, so Chimilco and Chalco, are freshwater lakes.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Chalco doesn't exist anymore.
• 11:09
  So we don't know exactly when,
• 11:12
  but I think it's more than 2,000 years ago.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: The people from living next to the wetlands started building
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: islands with organic matter,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: with plants,
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: with mud,
• 11:26
  started building these islands using all of the materials from
• 11:30
  the wetland to
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: produce food,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: not only agriculture,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: but also aquaculture,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: like crustaceans,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: fish,
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: amphibians,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: hunting.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: So they created more life than there was before their intervention.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's like farming the landscape, like how
• 11:52
  how indigenous knowledge helps with its sensibility to read and
• 11:58
  to understand
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: effectively and functionally,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: and also in terms of rituals and religion,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: the landscape.
• 12:07
  So nowadays the Chinampas are less than 10% of what they were
• 12:12
  in terms of extension
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: of land,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: but they're still functional.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Not a lot of farmers left.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: The city is growing on top of them.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: So if this trend continues, the chinampas will disappear.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very important to the city because they give us water.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: The aquifer is recharged thanks to the canals.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Being a wetland is a terrestrial ecosystem that captures the most carbon,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: produces a lot of oxygen,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: it harbors 2% of the world's biodiversity,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: and it produces food.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also very important in terms of culture and heritage.
• 13:00
  And I think just to add up on Lucio's amazing explanation,
• 13:05
  the chinampas also
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: are this reflection of what's going on not only in Mexico,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: but worldwide regarding peasant farming.
• 13:13
  I mean,
• 13:14
  the Chinembas are starting to be devoured by the city mainly
• 13:17
  because they're abandoned.
• 13:19
  And this abandonment of the farming practices is just something
• 13:24
  that's going on not only here.
• 13:26
  And that shows us how forgotten peasant farming is not only in
• 13:34
  Mexico,
• 13:34
  but worldwide.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: it also teaches us these amazing things,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: as Lucio said,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: how humans can have a positive impact when indigenous people,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: communities,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: made,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: constructed,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: created the chinampas,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: they multiplied life.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it shows us how humans,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: we have this responsibility,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: not only to live within nature or leave it alone,
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: but also to guide it.
• 14:03
  into this process,
• 14:05
  more complexity and it's producing food while creating a
• 14:09
  beautiful system.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: the chinampas are in many ways,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: this place inside Mexico City,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: because it's important to note that it's located not in the outskirts,
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: except from the place we're sitting on and the prep center,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: if you drive to the chinampas,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: you take like 35,
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: 40 minutes.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's in the solid part.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a way to get outside the city,
• 14:37
  like to get into the Chinampas and to realize the difference
• 14:41
  and the rock and the
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: pressure there's between the rural and the urban.
• 14:46
  And yeah,
• 14:49
  it has so many,
• 14:50
  so many lessons we can learn from the Chinampas.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: For me,
• 14:54
  it's such a perfect example of humans living within an
• 14:58
  ecosystem rather than
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: dominating it.
• 15:01
  And just the profound impacts just that alone has just on a
• 15:06
  level of biodiversity
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: and just the amount of food produced and
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: All of these things, it's quite incredible.
• 15:13
  And it's like I've traveled a lot in South America and I see
• 15:17
  things quite similar
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: to this in some ways.
• 15:20
  And it's just it's so profound and it should really be the
• 15:25
  standard of what guides
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: us into the future as opposed to just,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: just trying to pump as much food out of,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_03: industrial farms and whatever all the time.
• 15:37
  One question I have is,
• 15:39
  at their high point,
• 15:40
  how much food was actually being produced?
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: Are there any estimates?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: We have the population number of Tenochtitlan, the Azte capital.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: So there were 200,000 inhabitants.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: that were mostly fed by the chinampa system.
• 15:58
  And the population in the basin at the height of the Aztec
• 16:03
  empire was 1 million.
• 16:05
  So the chinampas was the most productive system of agriculture
• 16:10
  in Mesoamerica,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: this part of the world in ancient cultures.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a fairly a big part of the food production.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty incredible.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right now, how much food is being produced there?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know, like the total?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know exactly because it's very fragmented in the chinampas.
• 16:33
  Most of it goes to the big markets,
• 16:37
  but it's in tons,
• 16:38
  like daily tons of different vegetables.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: less than,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would say what,
• 16:44
  less than 5% of the remaining chinampas are used to produce
• 16:50
  food in a regenerative
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: way.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned something,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Pablo,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: very interesting,
• 16:57
  which is how this system of agriculture helps us to understand
• 17:01
  what we can do for
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: the planet and we as part of a bigger organism.
• 17:08
  But then I think about this connection between urban and rural
• 17:13
  and people living in cities.
• 17:15
  Apart from paying for these products,
• 17:17
  valuing them and help to spread the word,
• 17:20
  I guess,
• 17:21
  I am struggling with thinking why more people don't connect
• 17:27
  closely with this.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: it's obviously a matter of communication,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: having people like you doing this or people like us trying to,
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: show what you are doing.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I wonder if like citizens in average,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: the average citizen feels powerless because even when,
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: they are the rest,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: they are the
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: the wise communities, and we should learn from that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, it's an asymmetrical connection, right?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like we citizens, or you the average citizens, to learn and learn
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: be illuminated by these wise people.
• 18:09
  But I think there has to be some empowering message to citizens
• 18:14
  so that they feel
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: more valued too.
• 18:17
  And I think,
• 18:17
  I'm not saying the motivation has to be like,
• 18:20
  I am important.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not that simple.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know if you get what I'm like trying to
• 18:27
  go to because money cannot be the only connection or just
• 18:32
  giving value to these
• 18:33
  communities because they are not going to become these
• 18:36
  communities to some extent
• 18:38
  they cannot adapt their lives even if they understand them
• 18:42
  right so i'm just
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: working on this connection in my mind between urban and rural which is
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, obviously a constant challenge.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 18:51
  that's like a huge subject and very deep things to talk about
• 18:55
  regarding it,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: because I think on one part,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: you have this extremely efficient,
• 19:03
  almost invisible food production industrial system that
• 19:08
  everyone gives for granted,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: that it gives you food in supermarkets that are made.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's not as tasty or as nutritious as food, as real food.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: I hate the term, but natural food.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: But people don't care about it because they don't really have a point of
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: comparison,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: most of them.
• 19:27
  They just go to the supermarket and they buy whatever they see
• 19:33
  and there's
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: diversity all year round,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: but we know what's behind it.
• 19:38
  But it's not easy to see what's behind it because of this
• 19:40
  fracture between urban and rural.
• 19:43
  And there's also this part of,
• 19:45
  you said,
• 19:46
  people feel hopeless,
• 19:48
  powerless,
• 19:48
  sorry.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's apathy as well.
• 19:52
  And I also think that the speech or discourse behind
• 19:56
  sustainability has failed a
• 19:58
  bit in the way that it's shown a lot how we're standing on the
• 20:04
  precipice of
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: society.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: of the world, just the planet almost disappearing and people get
• 20:15
  scared and their response is this apathy because they actually
• 20:19
  say what I do it's
• 20:21
  not going to have an impact I don't like me as a person I don't
• 20:25
  I really don't
• 20:26
  don't matter that much and it's exactly the opposite message we
• 20:30
  should be conveying
• 20:30
  you know we should be saying there is a way out of this it's
• 20:35
  not that difficult
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: it's really not that difficult
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: and there's hope and there's optimism,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would have a much better,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: bigger impact than the other strategy.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: We all have been part of a strategy, but we need to change it.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because it does matter what you're doing as an individual.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like every big change in society has come from a small community.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: It has started small.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Arcaterra will not save the Chinampas.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: We know it now.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Lucio was saying yesterday, two days,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: The day before yesterday, we had a big event, dinner.
• 21:15
  We held for 350 guests in order to get some money for our
• 21:21
  farming school and for the chinampas.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think his speech was amazing because he said,
• 21:27
  we now don't have the ingenuity we had 15 years ago where we
• 21:32
  thought he thought
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: that he was going to save the chinampas.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: But now we have the experience and we know the only way forward is by
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: collaborating and building a network and building community.
• 21:43
  It's hundreds and thousands of similar projects that are going
• 21:49
  to get us out of this.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's really a way.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the message I try to tell everyone.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: When I give tours in the Chinampas,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: when I receive someone in Valdío,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: when I get invited to do a talk,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've changed the way I talk about the future because
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: It might sound a bit cliche and something,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: but if we don't imagine a better future and believe in it,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: we're never going to get there.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Also, I think if you ask anyone in Mexico City about Xochimilco,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Most will say it's just going to the party barges, to the party boats.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: For us, it was also a revelation that the Chinampa still exists.
• 22:34
  So just following what my brother was saying,
• 22:37
  there's this big disconnection.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And in Mexico in particular,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: as a third world country or developing country,
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: whatever we want to call it,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: We're still at this stage where peasant farming is...
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the people that are born into rural families,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: they want to escape that reality because it's badly made,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: because it's significantly frowned upon,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this rural exodus,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: going to the United States,
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: going to the cities,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: but then Xochimilco is inside Mexico City.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: So the people living there,
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: living in the neighborhoods,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: they can go and study,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: they can go and work in the city.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very, very complex.
• 23:25
  What we really hope is that we're reaching this tipping point,
• 23:29
  knowing that the promises of...
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: of the system have failed to deliver what we were supposed to get.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And the chinampa is this very,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: very powerful way of reconnecting,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: of recovering and of restoring.
• 23:47
  So we have the immense luck of living in a city that still has
• 23:53
  a living and
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: breathing system like the chinampas.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you collaborate with the local government or the national government?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, we're starting to.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: We have, on previous occasions, nothing significant, really.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: But now,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: through our non-profit,
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: we're working in,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: applicated research,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: science,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: climate mitigation.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And what we're looking at, what we're striving for, is
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: to,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: through the research we're doing with the university,
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: with UNAM,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: the biggest university in Mexico,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: to provide the proof and the information for a government agency,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: the environmental agency in Mexico City,
• 24:39
  to give a payment for ecosystemical services to waltzing and
• 24:43
  petal farmers,
• 24:45
  as long as they continue to practice a traditional form of
• 24:48
  agriculture so that the
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: effects of climate change won't
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: make them as vulnerable to abandon farming.
• 24:59
  And also the market,
• 25:00
  the volatility of market won't threaten their existence.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: We're excited about that.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're still in the first stages, but the government is showing interest.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's good.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: It seems so obvious that this is something that
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: Need supported as we speak,
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:20
  like half of the world is in Brazil at Cope debating all of
• 25:24
  these solutions.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: They're throwing all this,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: like wild money at,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: all these carbon projects and all this other stuff.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's like these simple solutions,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: like simple,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: straightforward things you can support that have.
• 25:36
  so many different positive effects you know it just seems so
• 25:40
  obvious to me and it's
• 25:42
  like that that baffles me there's so many just direct ways to
• 25:46
  support you know the
• 25:47
  future climate it baffles me that like there's been no one's
• 25:52
  really taken an
• 25:53
  interest before yeah i think i think like i said the path is
• 25:57
  the path is clear you
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: know like what
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the reality is that economic interests,
• 26:04
  the system works in a way that people that take the decisions
• 26:07
  of where the planet
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: is heading,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: they're interested in capital accumulation.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we can go in this subject for hours.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: But as Lucio said also, the system has failed.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think many people have realized now that it's happening.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how fast change will come.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: But of course,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: now in Brazil,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: they're almost saying like,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: we need to accept this new reality and we need to adapt.
• 26:36
  But the rich are getting,
• 26:37
  the billionaires are getting trillionaires and the poor are
• 26:42
  dying.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just crazy.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm baffled as you are.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's something I just can't get into my mind.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: But as I said, it has to come from the bottom upwards.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do we do that, though?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do we go outside the system?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: How do we create a new system?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's more of us than them.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's more of us in the world that really believe in,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: a positive future and that believe that,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:12
  obviously climate change is real and we believe in the
• 27:16
  solutions that right out in
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: front of us.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do we come together and change that?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think you need to have a reference for what you want to go to.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And for us,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: as for many other peoples and movements,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: it's done through agriculture and through eating,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: the power of those two industries and activities.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And more specifically for us is peasant farming.
• 27:49
  And my brother and I say peasant knowing full well that in
• 27:53
  English it has negative connotations.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: In what way?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's to say that climate change is only the symptom,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: and if we focus on the science of it,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: we're missing the point.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: The real crisis is a cultural crisis,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: and we need a model of a cultural crisis,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: because in terms of technical solutions and scientific solutions,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: as Pablo was saying,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: we already know them.
• 28:22
  But as long as it doesn't make money,
• 28:25
  then it's not going to be supported.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And we already know that.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the model we propose is peasant farming,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: but not only in its way of farming,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: but also in its cultural values,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: in contentment,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: in set boundaries,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: in cycles,
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: in generosity,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: in giving back,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: in community.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: in respecting the mystery of life,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: obviously it's easy to,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: to over romanticize that,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: and also from the city with coming from privilege,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: we don't want to,
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: to fall in that category.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: but we also can create a new world going back to those values of,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: of,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: of the peasantry,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: but incorporating things,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: many things that,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: that the peasantry has been lacking,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: no,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 29:18
  Autonomy,
• 29:20
  like political power,
• 29:22
  different ways of organizing,
• 29:24
  other ways of culture.
• 29:26
  So I think we do have the references and the inspiration and
• 29:31
  the movements.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, then the question is,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: How do we make this more mainstream?
• 29:37
  Because we have the impression that this is only a very small
• 29:42
  group of people
• 29:43
  talking about or in very poor countries that it happens because
• 29:46
  of necessity,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: not because of choice.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's an answer to that.
• 29:51
  I think that all of us are doing what we can and we have to
• 29:55
  have faith at the end.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I think, as you said, there are more of us than them.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a reality.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're starting to see many good changes worldwide.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know the feeling now,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: it's a lot of despair of what's going on worldwide,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: but there are some glimpses of fate going on,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: even in the US,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: in Mexico as well.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I also think that we should also start to think locally in many ways,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: because if we just start thinking globally,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: how we will change everything,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: it just becomes overwhelming and you fall into this
• 30:35
  powerless apathy mode that you're just completely stuck and
• 30:43
  paralyzed in a way.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very difficult question.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us know there is a way and it's not inventing something new.
• 30:55
  Most of us know that we could have a better planet,
• 30:59
  better society,
• 31:00
  better community.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why it's not going on?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: The system that we've lived in,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: the capitalist system we've lived in,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: is beginning to show some cracks.
• 31:12
  And I think it will take longer than it should,
• 31:16
  but it's beginning to fill this movement.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: I really think so.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: I agree.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're going to change it.
• 31:23
  And I think what you guys are doing is showing there are
• 31:29
  examples out there that
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: have existed for 2,000 years that should be the models.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: And they will be the models, I think.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think maybe there should be Chinampas in the Great Lakes.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 31:44
  But maybe there are these solutions like that that we just have
• 31:48
  to kind of think a
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: little bit out of the box.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: We need to take
• 31:52
  chances and risk and not let all the shitty people in the world
• 31:55
  bring us down
• 31:56
  because you know they they're trying to and like now they have
• 31:59
  you know algorithms
• 32:01
  that are you know making us feel worse than than it should and
• 32:05
  you know it's like
• 32:06
  we we have to like be smart and talk about this shit and and
• 32:13
  people will listen i
• 32:14
  think they will like you know maybe not right away but i think
• 32:17
  little by little
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: they are listening and there are cracks showing in the system and
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, I have hope.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: for instance,
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Valdeo,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: in a big way,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: we opened a restaurant because we know,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 32:33
  we met Doug and we met Max and the zero waste system with the
• 32:38
  network we have just
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: became something so interesting and beautiful to do that we did it.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also because we know restaurants have a lot of attention.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And many of them, or most of them, have the least impact, you know?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's how can we have a bigger impact?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying Baldillo will change the restaurant industry,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm pretty sure it will have an impact.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it will make other young chefs,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: young cooks,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: even people that have been working in Baldillo,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: open new places with the same ethos,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: with the same culture,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's mainly showing that there is a way.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: There is a different way.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a profitable way.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's a delicious way.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: It helps communities around.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we're in the food industry.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And we really think that peasants are the key to prevent what's going on.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we also think that food plays a major role in what's going on.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we have the luck to try and have this impact through a restaurant.
• 33:53
  But in the other industries,
• 33:54
  I think,
• 33:56
  there are many ways to have an impact.
• 33:58
  You don't need to be in the food industry to change how people
• 34:02
  are starting to
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: think and how to move into the right direction.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: I remember you asking this question when,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: do we need another fucking restaurant?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say no.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: But one other way of seeing that is like,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: if we do,
• 34:21
  it's a restaurant that will give a different example or that it
• 34:25
  will show a
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: different way.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: so that the ones that are already there maybe change their practices.
• 34:31
  Because one of the things that I keep just thinking about the
• 34:37
  food industry is how
• 34:38
  many restaurants that are doing poorly in so many ways can
• 34:42
  improve and actually
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: just not open more,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: just make the ones that exist really better.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: This model like the one you have can give that example.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing that I was thinking is this,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: we and them,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: which is kind of the divide between,
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think philosophically has the same challenge than urban rural.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how can we build bridges between them, whoever them are?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 35:16
  What is the common ground and how those other people that feel
• 35:20
  hopeless or remain
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: ignorant or are scared can see hope in these practices?
• 35:29
  So I think,
• 35:30
  you know,
• 35:31
  I know you have worked on a definition of a campesino peasant.
• 35:36
  And I wonder if part of the world is to start defining the role
• 35:40
  of the urban
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: habitat to empower those people.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: What you do matter, no matter what your political choice is.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: What you do matter.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: this Maha movement in the U.S.,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is make America healthy again,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: polemical as everything.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we are not going to get into that.
• 36:02
  But there are some principles there that I'm sure have a common
• 36:06
  ground with these
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: things,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: as immensely different as they look.
• 36:12
  So it's a big challenge,
• 36:14
  it's boring,
• 36:15
  it's annoying,
• 36:16
  but I think that's part of the world too.
• 36:18
  It's like what every person should feel empowered to
• 36:23
  independently of other choices.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's very basic, you know, it's our task as humans.
• 36:31
  Not to be naive,
• 36:32
  but I think that's part of the job,
• 36:33
  building these bridges.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And as you say, not coming from a privileged educator or vision of
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: not only a risk,
• 36:44
  but also it's kind of a duty to make this more mainstream when
• 36:49
  you have that sort
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: of illumination or clarity.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not you guys, but everyone that can work on this.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, just, yeah, to add more challenges.
• 37:02
  I think that,
• 37:02
  yeah,
• 37:03
  the rural urban right is really,
• 37:06
  really complex,
• 37:07
  you know?
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there are some experts regarding this subject,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: but from a certain point of view,
• 37:15
  urban life seems to be that all we do has a negative impact on
• 37:24
  the environment,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: how we dress ourselves,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: how we transport ourselves,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: what we eat,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: how we heat our houses,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: whatever.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this temptation of saying, let's re-ruralize the world.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that's,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: as my brother was saying,
• 37:42
  that we humans can go back to forming part of the life
• 37:46
  processes of nature.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: But that is a naive solution or answer,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: because most of the world is moving towards urban cities.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: So then there's like this...
• 38:00
  basic principles that we see very clearly now that is the
• 38:05
  redistribution of power
• 38:08
  and wealth so that maybe no one will afford to live as
• 38:14
  luxuriously as some people
• 38:16
  live today but more people can live in a better way so people
• 38:22
  like Jason Hickel
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: that have very powerful researches towards how we can distribute
• 38:30
  wealth and technology that we could benefit most people and not
• 38:35
  only a few.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it's nothing impossible if we look at it at least not yet.
• 38:45
  The thing is that we do have a time factor that we need to
• 38:51
  start moving because
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: otherwise it's going to get harder and harder and
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: social erosion goes with the climate, the environmental erosion.
• 39:05
  So I think one of the questions is what do we have to wait for
• 39:10
  now to start moving
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: in a much swifter way?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: Bring up one interesting thing about the world getting hotter and hotter.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: How resilient are the chanampas?
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like in terms of just dealing with changing climate, irregular weather,
• 39:28
  I would assume they're probably more resilient than any other
• 39:32
  growing pattern.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great question, Nick.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're actually doing the climate risk assessment.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: First of all, the chinampas, the water used to come from two rivers.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about more than 100 years ago.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Two rivers and many, many springs.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now the rivers have been diverted, you know, so...
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: More than 90% of the water comes from treatment plants.
• 39:59
  It happened once during New Year,
• 40:02
  like seven years ago,
• 40:03
  that one of the pipes broke.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: And just four or five days, you could see the level fall dangerously.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Some canals weren't navigable.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: So the main risk is water, water management.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's getting drier in all this part of the world.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're getting water from
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: from very far away places now.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: So if there's a hydrological crisis, the chilampas will disappear.
• 40:32
  Then at a more farming scale,
• 40:36
  they're like this unusual or out of season frosts.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: In 2004, we had a frost
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was like the 6th of April, like a very, very bad frost.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: We have hailstones that typically,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: and then in March,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: in April and May,
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: we have so much heat that the plants do suffer and have a very hard time.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: So as you were suggesting, traditional ways of farming in the chinampas,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: build resilience,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: having the trees,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: having polycultures,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: covering the soil,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: the canals,
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: the different sizes of canals.
• 41:22
  All of these agricultural practices and designs make
• 41:26
  agriculture in the Chilampas
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: more resilient.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: But the big problem, it's not just up to farmers now.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a global and a city problem.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: That complexity gives the resiliency.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the food industry,
• 41:44
  its biggest objective has been removing complexity and turning
• 41:49
  everything into
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: commodity and making it simple.
• 41:52
  And making simple monocultures with all the things we know that
• 41:57
  they put in them,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: the poisons,
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: is removing all the complexity and it's anti-resilient.
• 42:05
  Is there something in Valdío that has made you realize
• 42:11
  something different in terms
• 42:12
  of the entire project about Arca Tierra or like something that
• 42:17
  has changed because
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: of the restaurant or that you have been more aware of or what?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: that has a road to the conversation,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: the restaurant,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: apart from,
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: the audience and making this visible.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: My brother would have a much more thorough answer.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: For me,
• 42:35
  the biggest surprise and what makes me more and more proud and
• 42:39
  happy is the work
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: atmosphere.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when you go to a Leo tweet, you can feel the...
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: the motivation, the enthusiasm, the joy of everyone working there.
• 42:54
  In Mexico City,
• 42:55
  there's a lot of rotation in terms of people that work in
• 42:59
  restaurants.
• 43:01
  And I think we are one of the few exceptions because it's very
• 43:05
  purpose-driven and
• 43:06
  it's very interesting for people who like about traceability
• 43:11
  and about agriculture.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that for me is the biggest thing.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 43:19
  I would agree that one of the biggest lessons from Baldillo is
• 43:22
  that there are many
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: young chefs,
• 43:25
  many young people that are just waiting for an opportunity and
• 43:29
  there aren't many to
• 43:30
  show that they really care and they really give a shit about
• 43:35
  what's happening and
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: they want to transmit the message.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not only in traceability and zero waste and all the system,
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's also showing that restaurants and food can be this vehicle,
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: this platform for
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: bigger,
• 43:49
  bigger things because I think the culture in Baldillo is a
• 43:53
  consequence of most of
• 43:55
  the team knowing or almost all the team knowing that we're
• 43:57
  doing something bigger
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: than ourselves and bigger than a restaurant.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: on the more technical things,
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: just realizing how big of a tool using ancestral methods of fermentation,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: maybe koji that comes from Japan and all the things we have in Mexico.
• 44:15
  It's not new,
• 44:16
  but we're doing things that have been done for the first time
• 44:20
  ever.
• 44:21
  Like something as simple as putting koji into pulque or using
• 44:28
  Mexican ingredients
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's just finding new ways that we can make food not only more delicious,
• 44:38
  but finding new ways on how we can use the ingredients as a
• 44:44
  whole and waste less.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just showing that there's, it has showed me that it is possible.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not only a wild dream that Doc McMaster had 12 years ago.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that it's really, really possible and profitable as well.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: What happens when you put koji in?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: When the team told me they were doing it,
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was just like,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: it's one of those interesting things,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm very sure it will turn out good.
• 45:15
  But it's so good that I told them that we should give away koji
• 45:19
  to pulquerias so
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: that they can put koji in the pulque because it changes the texture.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: a lot and it gives this floral taste.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're using this grain of koji that's supposedly grown to make sake.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it brings this sake similar texture and the floral flavor of the koji.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just one extremely simple example.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: In pulques normally, which is wild yeast, right?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:52
  Pulque is a spontaneous fermentation of the honey water that
• 45:56
  comes from the heart,
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: from the bottom of the agave.
• 46:01
  They just put it in a bathtub with a starter and it ferments
• 46:05
  extremely fast.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: if you don't have pulque in the exact moment it's ready,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: it starts turning sourish and cheesy and lacking very fast.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then
• 46:19
  The tactic or the thing we do in Mexico is that we put fruit or
• 46:25
  other ingredients
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: on the pulque so you can give it another life.
• 46:30
  And in this experimentation of putting hundreds of fruits and
• 46:34
  different herbs and
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: everything on pulque,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: they came up with the idea of the koji.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's koji with cardamom.
• 46:40
  It's the mixture we have,
• 46:41
  that's the new pulque we're serving in Maldives.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this excitement of
• 46:47
  It stimulates the team in all the right direction because it's
• 46:50
  creating something
• 46:51
  new using techniques that are ancestral and showing that there
• 46:58
  is a path forward
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: through the knowledge we already have in our hands.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's something that can be shared easily and that's incredible.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: How was the collaboration with Douglas McMaster?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: How was in detail in a day-to-day experience?
• 47:16
  He's our partner in Valdío,
• 47:19
  through a project he has called Silo Systems with Max.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Max is Max and Dog.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Max used to be head chef in Silo,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: and he came to a wedding in Mexico,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Richard Harta and Henrietta.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we took him to the Chinampas.
• 47:36
  Lucio and myself,
• 47:38
  we followed Silo and Dog's work,
• 47:40
  and it was really an inspiration.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: It was Henrietta who told us.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was Henrietta.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: Henrietta was the matchmaker.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she told us, there's this friend of mine coming to our wedding.
• 47:52
  But they got married,
• 47:53
  Richard and Henrietta,
• 47:54
  like on the 28th of December.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we didn't go.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: But we were so keen on meeting Doug.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: He went before...
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: with a friend of hers, and we were outside Mexico City.
• 48:06
  And he was like,
• 48:08
  okay,
• 48:08
  this is the place I was going with Henrietta's friends.
• 48:11
  And our mission was to convince him to give us a consultancy on
• 48:16
  zero waste.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: And when he went to the Chinampas,
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: he was like so astounded that he told us,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: I want to open a restaurant here.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, can you give us a consultancy?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, let's open the restaurant together.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_03: Did you want him to help you with waste on the farm?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: we were already with the plans of opening the restaurant,
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: and it was going to be like a very ingredient,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: cultural-based restaurant,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: no?
• 48:43
  We wanted to know about zero waste,
• 48:47
  thanks to Henrietta who told us about Douglas.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when he came in, everything changed.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: It came from being something extremely simple to doing...
• 48:59
  this project now Valdío and we met him in January and we opened
• 49:06
  in August so you
• 49:08
  can imagine how crazy it was I mean when we opened Valdío of
• 49:13
  course we were not
• 49:14
  ready but we had the lease on we were paying rent it was it was
• 49:19
  a roller coaster
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: ride that
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it was all worth it, really.
• 49:22
  And now Baldillo,
• 49:23
  after one year,
• 49:24
  it has this identity that you get with time.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Some restaurants never get it.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Some restaurants get it in a couple of years, three, four years.
• 49:35
  But now I think Baldillo has this identity because we have
• 49:38
  these young chefs,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: young Mexican chefs with a head of fermentation that comes from the UK.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's Mexican food.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like...
• 49:47
  Mexican food is prepared in a way that no one has ever tried
• 49:51
  before because we have
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: a zero waste closed loop system.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's familiar to Mexicans,
• 49:58
  but at the same way it's completely new and it's just getting
• 50:01
  more exciting each
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: week.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: Fermentation is,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 50:05
  like every modern restaurant in the world talks a lot about
• 50:08
  fermentation now,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: but why is it so essential in a zero waste restaurant?
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: that's an extremely good question because,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: thanks to Noma and other amazing projects,
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: fermentation has become extremely fashionable.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I really think some chefs use it as a showing of technique.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: It also gives amazing flavors and textures.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: But in our case,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: in Valdío,
• 50:34
  the most important use for fermentation is using scraps and
• 50:40
  discarded ingredients
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: from our same
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: main dishes,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: processes,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: fish bones,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: innards,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: meat bones,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: and turn them into delicious flavors,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: whether it's misos,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: garums,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: shoyu.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: So Doug says koji is a golden gateway to zero waste.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: I thought at the beginning it was a bit of an exaggeration,
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: but now that we have Chris,
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: that he's the head of fermentation,
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: that's the only thing he does,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: And his mindset is exactly this one.
• 51:13
  It's not only creating fermentation for flavors,
• 51:15
  but it's to close the loop.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've realized that it's completely true.
• 51:19
  And I realized that fermentation has this power to convert
• 51:28
  ingredients that would
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: have,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: like the stems from a broccoli or from,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: you can turn them into amazing things just by fermenting them.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we're not inventing something, we're just using it in different ways.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: So fermentation in Valdío, it's mainly a tool for zero waste.
• 51:52
  And as a consequence,
• 51:53
  as a second consequence,
• 51:56
  it gives amazing flavors and textures into food.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_03: Fermentation,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: like so many examples of fermentation historically,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: like on earth,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: were not for flavor,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was...
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: for preservation,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: for,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: controlling the food and,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: chicha and the Andes,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: it was for,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_03: preserving that harvest for a longer time and not letting it spoil.
• 52:18
  And it's just like,
• 52:20
  it's just another solution that was right there in front of us
• 52:23
  for so long.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: We've just started talking about it again, you know, in a wider way.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: Some people ask, you're in Mexico city, you have all these diversity,
• 52:34
  Why wouldn't you serve everything fresh without preservation,
• 52:38
  fermentation?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: But once you run a restaurant,
• 52:42
  you realize how much food can end up in the best case scenario
• 52:46
  in compost,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: in the normal,
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: usual case,
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: in the bean.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's around 30 to 35% in a normal restaurant.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: Which is insane.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Which is insane.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's a ton of food.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's a ton of food.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like even a small restaurant.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_03: That's a ton of food.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's a ton of food.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: And forget about sustainability.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Think about business.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're throwing delicious food into the bin.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you start thinking.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a lack of imagination in many ways.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: And just status quo.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's normal.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can throw.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: I even saw the first episode of the new Michelin star series in Netflix.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_01: And within the first 10 minutes or 20 minutes,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: there's this chef,
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: this angry chef shouting to the chef in the kitchen.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: And he throws, I don't know how many tons of fried chicken into the bin.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: The Netflix series shows it as if it was something cool, you know?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's how it was.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's just fucking crazy.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then you realize that, for instance, in Valdio, we're using the...
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: The central part of the corn and the, how do you say, the las hojas?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: We turn it into corn vinegar, and we have 600 liters of corn vinegar.
• 54:09
  And we're starting to sell the corn vinegar to other
• 54:12
  restaurants because it's just delicious.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they say, like, hell the fuck are you doing it?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that difficult.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: You do need space and some technique, but it's not that difficult.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, these are just business opportunities that somebody could...
• 54:25
  make all over Mexico or wherever,
• 54:28
  you know,
• 54:28
  it's like,
• 54:29
  it's,
• 54:29
  it's pretty incredible.
• 54:30
  And like,
• 54:30
  I know hopefully people do start learning from what you guys
• 54:33
  are doing there.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like I can't imagine it not having an impact already.
• 54:37
  I've written about often just so much bullshit sustainability
• 54:42
  talk going on in the
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: restaurant world for so many years.
• 54:46
  And I think people see right through it now and they know,
• 54:49
  they know what's real and what's not.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and I think it's clear what you guys are doing.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it like comes through as you sit down and eat.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: as Lucio was saying,
• 55:01
  it has to feel amazing to just like step in a restaurant that
• 55:05
  you know is zero
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: waste.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: That in itself has to feel amazing.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just, you know, the moment you're there.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: But just to eat there.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: Way of existing.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it needs, it needs to be delicious.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the first rule.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: If it isn't delicious,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: it has no impact,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: or,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: or long lasting impact because we will close restaurants.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it's,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: as you were saying,
• 55:32
  there's so many bullshit around sustainability in restaurants
• 55:35
  and awards around
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: sustainability and they're not taking it seriously.
• 55:39
  But now people are starting to realize because there's,
• 55:41
  there's more information.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, um,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Even the term farm-to-table,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: people are a bit tired of listening to that,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: because now every restaurant is a farm-to-table,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: but...
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: But every restaurant was always farmed.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, everything is growing.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like, even if it's a shitty farm, it's being grown at a farm.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: Even if it's a factory farm, it's a farm.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: It's so misleading, this label.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 56:07
  And just going back to the last detail in fermentation,
• 56:09
  it's like a tepache.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: in Mexico,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: the first tepaches were made with corn and with pineapple,
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: but it's not the pineapple per se.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's the skin.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's the outer part of the pineapple that's full of yeast.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another zero-waste technique that has been...
• 56:25
  been using for thousands of years for hundreds of years and
• 56:28
  it's it's standard it's
• 56:29
  like that's how tapache has been made in mexico always right
• 56:33
  like nobody uses a
• 56:34
  full pineapple do they nobody how hard was uh to translate for
• 56:39
  uh douglas mcmaster
• 56:41
  all these like the technique did you find that was like the
• 56:44
  principles were the
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: same even if the products were different like you found a common
• 56:51
  system of fermentation and it works more or less the same for
• 56:56
  products even if they
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: differ in different parts of the world.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: It took us some time to get that proper,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: to not get lost in translation between Mexican culture ingredients and
• 57:10
  dog with a with his silo system but the system per se like the
• 57:15
  fermentation part of
• 57:16
  it works very similar very very similar because it's the same
• 57:20
  uh uh principles that
• 57:23
  koji uses you know it's starch it's sugar it's uh but in the
• 57:28
  other part of the
• 57:28
  business like how mexico works logistically it's a whole
• 57:32
  different universe than
• 57:33
  europe it's uh and the foreign chefs that we've had in baldio
• 57:38
  they learned it
• 57:40
  the tough way because I remember we received last week the RU
• 57:45
  scholarship team.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: They win an award and they're 40 chefs.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: There were like 20 of them.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: We brought them to the lab,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: to the prep center,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: and one of them asked,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: how do you keep consistency in Valdío?
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: How do you deal with consistency?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Chris's response was, we are not aiming for consistency.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: We're striving for inconsistency.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: one,
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: we're dealing with nature as direct as possible,
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: and we don't have the same ingredient anyway.
• 58:20
  Secondly,
• 58:21
  we deal with fermentation and with changes in temperature,
• 58:26
  in everything.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the way it is.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: And thirdly, we live in Mexico City.
• 58:33
  And in Mexico,
• 58:34
  sometimes it doesn't work as it should,
• 58:39
  but it's the way it works.
• 58:40
  Sometimes you order some ingredients and they don't arrive the
• 58:44
  way you thought they
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: were going to arrive.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: or maybe you asked for some meat,
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: but the butcher,
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: the farm didn't have that part of the cow,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: so it sends you something different,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_01: and you need to adapt.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you think you're gonna get consistent working with local,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: organic,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: regenerative producers,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: then you're just gonna turn the other way,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: and you're gonna take the easy way and buy from the central market.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way it is, so it's not consistency.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_03: I just have one, like I could talk to you guys all day,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: I have one just very random question.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oxolotls, you know, the animal, the amphibian.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: The Chinampas are the very last place they live, right?
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_03: In the wild.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's true, right?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, not, Nick.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's not true.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's not?
• 59:34
  They are not in danger because they are living in many labs
• 59:38
  throughout the world.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_03: But in the wild, are they only...
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: They haven't seen Asholotus for a while.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's like this assumption that there's still some.
• 59:52
  However,
• 59:52
  we have other types of varieties of Asholotus in other parts of
• 59:58
  Mexico.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: The one in Xochimilco is the black one,
• 1:00:03
  but there are parts in Michoacán and other parts of Mexico that
• 1:00:06
  we still haven't.
• 1:00:09
  The thing is that there's so many tilapias and carbs that they
• 1:00:14
  just eat everything.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: Regardless, my question was, what is their ecological function?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: Do they have an ecological function?
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: they are a keystone species,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: like in the trophic chain,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: they are at the top,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: so they control many of the other species.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_02: So for biologists, they are a bio-indicator.
• 1:00:42
  There are some projects and farmers that we know that they
• 1:00:49
  filter their small
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: canals so they can breed some asholotus there.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it used to be also at the lake.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: It used to be eaten.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we hope it can go back.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it has this, it used to be a god.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it has also this religious mythological value as well.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, Xolotos are huge for Mexicans in many ways.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_03: I just wonder,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: like that,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:22
  like maybe there's something of them coexisting with humans and
• 1:01:26
  farming and,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: the Chinampas.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there's some symbiotic connection there.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_03: that just hasn't been discovered?
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was hoping maybe there was one.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was mostly food and cultural significance.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: They were farmed.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the chinamperos also were stewards of fashion locals.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: So cool.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is so fascinating and, you know, work in progress.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: I just look forward to visiting one day.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: No, congratulations.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, thank you for doing all this.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, thank you.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for doing your work.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge fan of what you're doing, really.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've been following you for a while and I think it's very rare to find
• 1:02:18
  publications and efforts as yours that are really talking about
• 1:02:22
  what matters,
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: but in a way that it's authentic with,
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: with no strings attached to anyone,
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: just like this is,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: this is,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_03: we try.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the most economical way of doing things, but it's like we try.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: Whether we are not money or it's a big honor for us to take part.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_03: So real pleasure.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_03: And like, I'll definitely come visit next time I'm in town.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: It would be amazing.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you guys.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you guys.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: That was Pablo and Lucio from Arcatierra and Baldio in Mexico City.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_03: Go, seriously, go to the Chinampas.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: Just go see what's happening there.
• 1:03:06
  Support these guys,
• 1:03:07
  but just try and understand what this is and why it's
• 1:03:14
  important.
• 1:03:15
  Because there are these solutions that have been built by
• 1:03:19
  people before us that are
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_03: just waiting for us to just pick up and use.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: But we have to keep them around and we have to support them.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: So please,
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: really,
• 1:03:33
  just get your ass to Mexico City and go to the Chinampas and
• 1:03:37
  you'll see exactly
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: what I mean.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: This is our last episode of the year.
• 1:03:42
  Next episodes are probably not going to be until February
• 1:03:45
  because I'm on a book deadline.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so look out for those, but we're not going away.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's just, it might be a pause for like a month.
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, please subscribe, newworlder.com or New Worlder on Substack.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: Follow us, like us.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_03: It all helps.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_03: And that's it.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_03: And thanks to my friend Pat Puzzid for the music, as always.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_03: See you guys in 2026.