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Bombshell Claim: Bryan Kohberger's Mom Secretly Torpedoes Defense | The Idaho Murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace a bombshell claim. Is Brian
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Speaker 1: Coburger's own mother secretly torpedoing his defense? I'm Nancy Grace,
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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: Location of emergency of.
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Speaker 3: One one who.
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Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel, but straight out to
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Speaker 1: the author who has written that definitive book on the
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Speaker 1: Coburger trial, Howard Bloom joining us. Howard question, what is
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Speaker 1: the report all about that Coburger's own mother is sabotaging
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Speaker 1: his defense?
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Speaker 4: Brian Coberger's mother does not want to admit that her
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Speaker 4: son is guilty. She is telling him and everyone involved
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Speaker 4: in the defense team she has no intention of settling
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Speaker 4: this case.
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Speaker 5: She wants it.
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Speaker 4: All to go to trial, even though two things are
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Speaker 4: looming over the case.
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Speaker 1: A very curious Howard Bloom why the mother would gamble
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Speaker 1: with her son's life since he is facing the firing squad.
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Speaker 4: First, this is the death penalty which is now going
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Speaker 4: to end in a firing squad. Idaho has passed a
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Speaker 4: law requiring that the death penalty be serviced by a
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Speaker 4: firing squad. The second thing is that the evidence against
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Speaker 4: Brian Coburger is pretty convincing. You just have to go
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Speaker 4: to this one salient fact. They have DNA from the
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Speaker 4: knife sheath that matches DNA taken.
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Speaker 5: From a cheek squab after his arrest.
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Speaker 4: So the defense is doing everything they can to save Coburger,
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Speaker 4: not just from a a guilty verdict, but from the
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Speaker 4: death penalty and hovering over all this is Colburger's mother
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Speaker 4: trying to say putting down her foot and say no,
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Speaker 4: she does not want to cross that rubercon where her
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Speaker 4: son might be a mass murderer.
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Speaker 1: I'm going to get to the rest of the family.
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Speaker 1: Where does the dad stand on this? Where does the
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Speaker 1: sisters stand on this? Remember they the sisters are the
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Speaker 1: ones that suspected Coburger their own brother at the get
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Speaker 1: go and voiced those concerns, and the parents beating them down.
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Speaker 2: According to reports straight out to the panel, Josh.
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Speaker 1: Ritter joining me, high profile criminal defense attorney joining us
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Speaker 1: out of la host of courtroom confidential.
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Speaker 2: Josh, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 1: This is greatly hampering the defense ability to maneuver because
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Speaker 1: if the mother is behind the scenes going HLN, there
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Speaker 1: will not be a guilty plea. She's setting her son,
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Speaker 1: her own son, up for the firing squad. So when
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Speaker 1: you've got it reminds me of a case that I
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Speaker 1: consulted on in Fulton County. It wasn't my case, but
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Speaker 1: I was watching it.
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Speaker 2: A young man murdered his mother, who happened to be
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Speaker 2: a sitting judge.
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Speaker 1: Judge Josephine Holmes Cook all right, been a defense attorney
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Speaker 1: for years, got on the bench. The family kept saying,
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Speaker 1: don't plead, don't plead to the sun.
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Speaker 2: They offered him a really light sentence, which I disagree with.
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Speaker 1: But that said, he listened to the family, he got convicted,
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Speaker 1: he got life behind bars.
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Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about. What about it, Josh, Well.
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Speaker 6: It's about his high stakes the game, as you could
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Speaker 6: possibly be claim, because we are talking about the death
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Speaker 6: pedal to hear, this isn't a matter of you know what,
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Speaker 6: let me take my chances, let me see what the
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Speaker 6: evidence actually is and this and we heard from the
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Speaker 6: author just there. And one thing I'll take issue with
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Speaker 6: is he talked about the evidence against him. I haven't
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Speaker 6: seen any evidence so so far. What we're talking about
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Speaker 6: is alleged at Place.
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Speaker 1: Actually has a straight face when he's saying that, Well,
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Speaker 1: I want to watch you.
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Speaker 2: I want to say your demeanor. Okay, yeah, what did
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Speaker 2: you just say that?
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Speaker 1: You actually say you say you haven't seen any evidence
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Speaker 1: indicating guilt.
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Speaker 6: I haven't seen an exhibit marked in court. I haven't
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Speaker 6: seen a witness taken taken the stand under oath, so
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Speaker 6: so far. I mean, we live in America where they're
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Speaker 6: presumed innocent right now there is no evidence. But in
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Speaker 6: this game that is being played, this game of chicken,
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Speaker 6: we're not just talking about somebody going to prison for
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Speaker 6: the rest of their life. We're talking about somebody who
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Speaker 6: might possibly be facing the firing squad. So I absolutely
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Speaker 6: do understand why the family pressures are going to be
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Speaker 6: something that's very difficult for his defense team to be handling.
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Speaker 6: If they're trying to negotiate some sort of a flea
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Speaker 6: that avoids him receiving the capital punishment, the greatest punishment
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Speaker 6: we have in this country. That is, I think their
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Speaker 6: first and foremost goal in this whole thing is just
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Speaker 6: to try to save their client's life, you know, to.
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Speaker 1: Dodor Bethany Marshall joining us guys for the as you
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Speaker 1: just joining us. Apparently Mommy Coburger is to torpedoing her
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Speaker 1: son's defense case. Demanding that they go to trial to
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Speaker 1: prove his innocence. Okay, you know what can love be that?
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Speaker 2: Blind?
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany with me, Doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out
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Speaker 1: of the California jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can
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Speaker 1: see her now on Peacock and find her at doctor
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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall dot com. Question love that blind that she
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Speaker 1: can't see the evidence and all that that Josh Ritter
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Speaker 1: just said.
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Speaker 2: It's blah blah blah blah.
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Speaker 1: Of course he's presumed innocent. He's just throwing that out
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Speaker 1: there as a fallback. Yes, he's presumed innocence. But the
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Speaker 1: rest of that phrase is unless and until the state
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Speaker 1: pierces the presumption of innocence with evidence. Okay, they always
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Speaker 1: leave that part out, But unless he wants to argue
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Speaker 1: DNA isn't real, Josh Ritter has a problem.
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Speaker 2: Blind love, Bethany, blind love.
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Speaker 7: Not only does this mother have blinders on Nancy, but
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Speaker 7: I would imagine that this family has a long and
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Speaker 7: storied history of those two sisters being concerned about their brother,
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Speaker 7: pointing out his symptoms, trying to get some kind of
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Speaker 7: psychological help for him, and the mother shooting them down,
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Speaker 7: not believing them. You know, I find that in families
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Speaker 7: sometimes the parents idealize the most disturbed child. So you'll
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Speaker 7: have two kids who are really functioning highly in society,
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Speaker 7: are bright. You'll have one child who's maybe personality disordered,
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Speaker 7: maybe associopath, and the parent chooses to put that child
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Speaker 7: on a pedestal. It's as if the idea that that
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Speaker 7: child needs help is just unfathomable for them. So I
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Speaker 7: think this mother, unfortunately, is not in reality, and as
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Speaker 7: you pointed out earlier, she's going to hurt her son
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Speaker 7: in some way through this pushing the defense attorneys.
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Speaker 1: And let me point out one more thing, doctor Bethany,
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Speaker 1: He's the baby.
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Speaker 2: He's the baby.
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Speaker 1: Of the family, the golden boy, the only boy. Okay,
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Speaker 1: So I don't know how that works in the mother
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Speaker 1: son dynamic.
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Speaker 2: I don't know that, but it means something.
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Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer, but I know enough to
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Speaker 1: know that the baby is coddle. The only boy is
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Speaker 1: very often elevated, like you're saying.
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Speaker 2: But you know, Chris McDonough, let me go to you.
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Speaker 1: Unlike doctor Bethany, who comes at it from a psychological angle,
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Speaker 1: you and I've seen so many murder case I can't
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Speaker 1: even count the number of cases I investigated, tried, or covered.
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Speaker 2: Same with you.
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Speaker 1: McDonough, Director Cold Case's Foundation, former homicide detective, having worked
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Speaker 1: over three hundred homicides during his career, also star of
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Speaker 1: The Interview Room, Chris, let's just break down all that
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Speaker 1: that Bethany just said. I've seen so many mothers will
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Speaker 1: probably every mother of a defendant. They tried to fight me,
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Speaker 1: physically fight me in the courtroom to defend their son.
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Speaker 2: They don't believe their baby could do it.
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Speaker 1: The looks I've gotten, if looks could kill, I mean,
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Speaker 1: the jury has to see everything going on in the courtroom,
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Speaker 1: and the mom is.
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Speaker 2: Always front seat, right behind the.
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Speaker 1: Sun, charged with murder, crying and carrying on, acting like
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Speaker 1: they're going to pass out. Are you surprised the mother
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Speaker 1: is saying, no, you're not pleading because you didn't do it.
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Speaker 2: Forget the DNA. It happens all the time, Chris.
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Speaker 8: Absolutely, Nancy, And isn't it interesting that that type of
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Speaker 8: unconditional love is that blind. I mean, remember, let's go
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Speaker 8: back to the point that she wrote an op ed
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Speaker 8: defending the death penalty against Ted Bundy of all people.
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Speaker 8: So you know, we have to think through that and say, okay, well,
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Speaker 8: what was the trigger between the mother and the son
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Speaker 8: that has caused her, you know, to defend him in
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Speaker 8: such a fashion, No, grante, that's her son. We get
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Speaker 8: that piece of the puzzle. But I think the evidence
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Speaker 8: is going to be damning for the family.
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Speaker 1: I think he meant she attacked the death penalty in
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Speaker 1: an op ed, even though the death penalty was for
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. You know, I interviewed some of his survivors
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Speaker 1: changed their lives forever, not in a good way.
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Speaker 9: Scot.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to get right to you, but I want
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Speaker 2: to find.
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Speaker 1: Out from Howard Bloom about the rest of the family. Okay,
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Speaker 1: we know where the mom stands, Howard, but what about
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Speaker 1: the dad.
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Speaker 4: I'm hearing from people close to the Coburger family, from
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Speaker 4: people close to the legal teams, that the real resistance
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Speaker 4: is coming from Brian's mother. His father is sort of
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Speaker 4: going with the flow. Neither one of them wants to
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Speaker 4: admit that their.
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Speaker 5: Son is guilty.
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Speaker 1: I leave your information, Howard Blame, author of the definitive book,
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Speaker 1: as of now on Brian Coberger.
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Speaker 2: When the night comes falling, Okay.
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Speaker 1: So that's the mom the dad who's kind of just
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Speaker 1: following her lead.
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Speaker 2: What about the sisters, Howard blame.
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Speaker 5: The sisters are a different case from the parents.
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Speaker 4: One of them is a psychologist, a family psychologist, the
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Speaker 4: other one an aspiring actress.
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Speaker 5: They're both can confront.
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Speaker 4: The reality, it seems, with a lot more focus and
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Speaker 4: a lot more pain, perhaps than the parents.
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Speaker 5: They realize what is happening. But one sister raised questions
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Speaker 5: originally with the father over the long Christmas.
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Speaker 4: Vacation after their trip father and son trip across country,
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Speaker 4: she raised questions about her brother, Brian Coberger. And when
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Speaker 4: she raised this to a father, what did the father do?
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Speaker 4: According to my sources, he just walked out of the room.
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Speaker 4: He could not deal with it.
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Speaker 2: I'm not surprised.
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Speaker 1: Joining me is Sidney Sumner, Crime Stories, investigative reporter on
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Speaker 1: the case from the very beginning. Sidney, let's think back
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Speaker 1: for a moment. We were first covering the raid on
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Speaker 1: the family's Pocono's home, remember, and they found Coburger wearing
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Speaker 1: shorts or underwear, but knowing him, probably shorts, okay, and
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Speaker 1: plastic gloves, you know, rubber gloves, and he was sorting
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Speaker 1: through trash and putting trash in individual plastic bags, or
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Speaker 1: so we've been told, and wait for it, then throwing
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Speaker 1: away the trash in the neighbor's Herbie Kirby, the neighbors
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Speaker 1: big outdoor trash bend. Ben I'm at that time, as
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Speaker 1: I recall, the sisters started asking then, hey, I think.
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Speaker 2: He did it. What do you think? Well, do you
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Speaker 2: remember that at the very beginning.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy. So that's what the reports are saying now
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Speaker 3: is that his sisters were immediately suspicious after hearing news
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Speaker 3: of what was going on in Moscow. They had that
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Speaker 3: description of the car not long after Coburger got home
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Speaker 3: for Christmas, and they looked at their brother, they looked
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Speaker 3: at his car, and they were immediately concerned that he
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Speaker 3: was somehow involved. And as Bloom said, his sources are
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Speaker 3: saying that the parents completely shut those arguments down from
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Speaker 3: the sisters, would not even entertain a conversation about it.
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Speaker 3: And days later the FBI shows up at their.
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Speaker 2: House to arrest Brian.
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Speaker 3: And now we know the defense is going to blame
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Speaker 3: this odd behavior with the trash on Coberger's OCD diagnosis.
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Speaker 3: Who he's going to say this is an unusual behavior
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Speaker 3: for me. It may have looked odd considering I have
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Speaker 3: just been implicated in this crime, but I always handle
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Speaker 3: my trash weird. I had dream of photia, I have
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Speaker 3: OCD behaviors that require me to do this, or I
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Speaker 3: feel anxiety and stress.
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Speaker 1: Okay, Sidney, you're scaring me a little bit because you
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Speaker 1: sound like you actually believe that. Okay, just a quick
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Speaker 1: answer from doctor Bethany Marshall. Did you hear what Sidney
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Speaker 1: just said that he's going to try to explain away
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Speaker 1: his behavior of wearing plastic gloves or rubber gloves at
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Speaker 1: what three am?
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Speaker 2: Was it at three am? Said some crazy.
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Speaker 1: Time when they were watching it from outside walking around
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Speaker 1: the house on the inside three am?
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Speaker 2: Okay, So how can you explain he's not getting rid
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Speaker 2: of his trash.
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Speaker 1: He's separating his parents trash at his parents' Pocono's home,
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Speaker 1: wearing plastic gloves, probably a face covering too, putting it
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Speaker 1: in plastic bags and I bet they were baggies sellable baggies.
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Speaker 1: Don't know that yet, and putting it in the neighbor's trash.
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Speaker 2: How can that be? That's getting rid of evidence?
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Speaker 1: Bethany Hey, reader's digest answer, not the full volume.
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Speaker 7: I have never seen an OCD patient engage in this
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Speaker 7: kind of behavior, and if he did have OCD, he
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Speaker 7: would be avoiding the trash, not going towards it.
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Speaker 1: Okay, here's another thing to Joe Scott Morgan joining me,
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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon, death investigator over a thousand investigations under
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Speaker 1: his belt, and star of hit podcast Body Bags with
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 2: Joe Scott.
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Speaker 1: Separating the trash, putting it in little baggies, throwing it
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Speaker 1: in the neighbor's trash. Could any of that disruption of
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Speaker 1: the evidence possibly destroy DNA evidence?
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Speaker 2: And cops watched him.
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Speaker 1: Vacuuming, spraying with four nine or commet cleaning out his car.
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Speaker 1: What does it take to get rid of DNA evidence?
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Speaker 1: But you know you got to address is it hair?
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Speaker 2: Is it fiber? Is it blood? Is it touch? Respond?
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Speaker 9: Well, you know, when you're talking about these categories of
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Speaker 9: potential evidence, our DNA rich evidence that are there, the
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Speaker 9: first thing, I think, probably the first thing that's the
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Speaker 9: most fragile is going to be any components of hair,
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Speaker 9: because you can lose it pretty quickly. Even a strong
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Speaker 9: gust of wind can blow it away probably second along
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Speaker 9: that is going to be any kind of touch DNA.
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Speaker 2: We have to.
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Speaker 9: Remember that touch DNA actually presents as a result of
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Speaker 9: dead sloughing skin cells. So if you have dry skin,
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Speaker 9: you can appreciate how easily that can be lost very quickly.
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Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Gray exactly.
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Speaker 1: Let's play on one of the roommates has passed out
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Speaker 1: and she was strong class.
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Speaker 2: Oh and they tell some man in their house up.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, joining us in all star panels straight out to
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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, author of.
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Speaker 2: The definitive book on the Idaho murders.
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Speaker 1: When the night comes falling, Howard, we're talking about the
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Speaker 1: mother torpedoing the defense, and I've got to move on
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Speaker 1: very quickly because there's so much happening in the courtroom.
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Speaker 1: But do you believe any of the family is going
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Speaker 1: to take the stand. That's a very very tricky question
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Speaker 1: because it could open up his Coburger's.
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Speaker 2: Reputation, his past. If the family says one.
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Speaker 1: Slip up, all that's going to come into evidence, okay,
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Speaker 1: because it will be deemed the defense brought it up.
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Speaker 1: And also, what am I hearing about Coburger's sister is
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Speaker 1: writing a book.
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Speaker 4: I think, and again this is just my hypothesis that
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Speaker 4: Brian's sister, who is a psychologist, will be taken put
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Speaker 4: on the stand, I think, and what I'm hearing is
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Speaker 4: she might even confirm her brother's purchase of the Amazon
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Speaker 4: knife from Amazon and that she's seen him with it.
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Speaker 4: That again, I can't say that for a fact, but
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Speaker 4: this is what I am hearing. And I also think
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Speaker 4: that she is writing a book on this case. I've
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Speaker 4: heard that too, And so she's been delving into this
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Speaker 4: with a bit more objectivity, a bit more sensitivity, sensitivity
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Speaker 4: to the family drama she's living through, and I think
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Speaker 4: her the defense will not the defense, rather the prosecution
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Speaker 4: will put her on the stand to try to get
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Speaker 4: the answers to speaking.
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Speaker 1: Now, I'm very curious about how the sister is going
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Speaker 1: to testify regarding Brian Coburger ordered the knife that that
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Speaker 1: was him, because we know the defense is going to argue,
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Speaker 1: wait for it, a shared Amazon account.
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Speaker 2: But that said, can I just focus on the book.
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Speaker 1: The sister is writing a book. Oh please please.
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Speaker 2: Please, someone put her on the stand. Josh Ritter.
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Speaker 1: That opens up a whole can of worms for cross examination.
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Speaker 1: The sister may now have a pecuniary interest in the
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Speaker 1: outcome money interest in the outcome of this trial. Did
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Speaker 1: nobody learn anything from Becky Hill? The clerk in the
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Speaker 1: Murdog case? Remember Murdog murdered his wife, Maggie and son
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Speaker 1: Paul Okay. In that case, the clerk of court, Becky Hill,
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Speaker 1: who seemed like a perfectly wonderful person, reportedly said comments
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Speaker 1: to the jury that the defense claims made them come.
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Speaker 2: Back with a guilty verdict.
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Speaker 5: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I don't believe that. She may have made offhand comments,
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Speaker 2: maybe even in jest, but.
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Speaker 1: They voted the way they wanted to vote. That said
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Speaker 1: she wrote a book, and she was drawn and quartered
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Speaker 1: over writing a book, suggesting that somehow she had a
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Speaker 1: money motive in the outcome of this trial, that she
19:20
Speaker 1: said things to the jury to make them reach a
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Speaker 1: certain verdict so she could make money. It's kind of
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Speaker 1: preposterous that she could think that far in advance.
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Speaker 2: I don't think that happened. Do I think there'll be
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Speaker 2: any trial? Yes? Do I think it really happened. No,
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Speaker 2: same thing here, Josh Well in that case too.
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Speaker 6: That's such a great example, it led to near disaster
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Speaker 6: for the prosecution because the defense was able to make
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Speaker 6: great hay of it. I mean, these are no small
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Speaker 6: problems when you anytime you're calling a witness, as the prosecution,
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Speaker 6: you're hoping that that person is coming in with no motivations,
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Speaker 6: no biases that exist outside of court. Well, as you
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Speaker 6: point out, Nancy, what bigger interest could somebody have, but
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Speaker 6: that they look to gain money off of this. They
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Speaker 6: look to profit off of this. They look to profit
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Speaker 6: perhaps even by the outcome of it, but certainly by
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Speaker 6: the story of it.
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Speaker 2: It's not a.
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Speaker 5: Problem to be lightly dismissed.
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Speaker 6: I think it's definitely something the prosecution is going to
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Speaker 6: have to deal with.
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Speaker 1: The significance of putting the sister on the stand for
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Speaker 1: so many reasons. Watching him clean out his car immediately
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Speaker 1: after the murders, obsessively him cleaning out the trash, wearing
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Speaker 1: plastic gloves, sorting it and using the neighbors a trash disposal,
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Speaker 1: but also a shared Amazon account.
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Speaker 2: Is this really happening?
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Speaker 1: Do they think the jury will believe what the aging
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Speaker 1: mother and father ordered a k bar knife.
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Speaker 2: Listen, listen to the defense.
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Speaker 10: It's misleading that the way that you just portray it
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Speaker 10: that because there is a purchase in a household account,
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Speaker 10: that that is automatically attributable to him, and that there's
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Speaker 10: somehow purchase.
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Speaker 11: In the household account, it's attributed under his particular name
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Speaker 11: in the account, as I understand it, Now, could somebody
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Speaker 11: else in the family get to it?
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Speaker 2: I don't know.
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Speaker 11: I suppose you're an expert will tell us that.
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Speaker 3: But.
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Speaker 11: I'm not sure how that is excluded. And I'm not
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Speaker 11: sure how that's expert testimony. I understand you have an
21:24
Speaker 11: expert to say, well, you know, all these other factors
21:27
Speaker 11: come into play, and all these other things could have happened,
21:29
Speaker 11: and okay, you can put that on, but I'm not
21:32
Speaker 11: sure where that excludes the state's evidence.
21:35
Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner, you've comed over every word that went down
21:39
Speaker 1: in the courtroom.
21:40
Speaker 2: The defense is arguing that there was a.
21:42
Speaker 1: Joint account on Amazon and maybe somebody else ordered the
21:48
Speaker 1: k bar knife and she you know, it reminds me
21:51
Speaker 1: of top Mom Casey Anthony.
21:53
Speaker 2: Okay, that's a nightmare right there.
21:54
Speaker 1: But remember she did that damning search on how to
21:58
Speaker 1: make homemade.
21:59
Speaker 2: Chloroform and her daughter, little Kelly.
22:03
Speaker 1: According to the state was drugged, unconscious and died in
22:07
Speaker 1: the mom's trunk. All right, her mother Todd Mom's mother,
22:12
Speaker 1: Cindy Anthony, gets on the stand and claims she was
22:16
Speaker 1: doing a search for Chlora phil because of bamboo.
22:20
Speaker 2: Growing in the backyard. Iighly did that to take the
22:23
Speaker 2: heat off top mom.
22:26
Speaker 1: Okay, So I guess the theory here is somebody else
22:29
Speaker 1: in the family, on a shared Amazon account, ordered the
22:32
Speaker 1: k bar knife and sheath, and then Sydney, they went
22:36
Speaker 1: back and ordered a replacement knife when the first one
22:39
Speaker 1: got lost in a murder, and then tried to delete
22:41
Speaker 1: the Amazon order history.
22:44
Speaker 2: Really, is that what they're claiming?
22:45
Speaker 3: Yes they are, And in their filing last month, giving
22:48
Speaker 3: more detail into this argument, they mentioned that other camping
22:54
Speaker 3: gear was purchased, a backpack, a tire repair kit, things
23:00
Speaker 3: of that nature. So they're suggesting that, oh, this was
23:03
Speaker 3: a usual purchase, this was a campaign type purchase and
23:09
Speaker 3: not necessarily attributable to Brian because they share this family account.
23:14
Speaker 2: And what's interesting about.
23:16
Speaker 3: That, I do the same thing. I share an Amazon
23:18
Speaker 3: account with my family, and I recently realized that, oh,
23:23
Speaker 3: you can set up a separate account that's under this
23:26
Speaker 3: household account. That uses your name particularly, so instead of
23:31
Speaker 3: shopping as my mother or my father, I can shop
23:35
Speaker 3: as myself and my purchase history is separate than the
23:40
Speaker 3: other people on that household account. So they're going to
23:44
Speaker 3: try and say that, oh, somebody else was using Brian's account,
23:47
Speaker 3: and that just makes no sense. Why would somebody else
23:50
Speaker 3: in his family go out of their way to specifically
23:53
Speaker 3: shop as Brian and then have it delivered to Brian
23:58
Speaker 3: and not someone else in the family. That's what they're
24:01
Speaker 3: going to try and say, and I don't think it's
24:02
Speaker 3: going to hold any wire.
24:03
Speaker 1: Josh Ritter, She's right, And can I also say Ridder
24:07
Speaker 1: that I'm so happy right now at the prospect the
24:12
Speaker 1: defense calling the mom and the dad, I guess up
24:16
Speaker 1: in their seventies at this juncture, I'm not sure about.
24:18
Speaker 2: That to try to put them on the stand to
24:21
Speaker 2: claim they ordered the camping gear, they ordered the k bar.
24:26
Speaker 1: I mean, if they put that defense up, the state
24:30
Speaker 1: is going to rebut and bring on and rebuttal every
24:35
Speaker 1: single family member that had access to that Amazon account
24:38
Speaker 1: and say did you order the k bar knife and
24:42
Speaker 1: have it shipped to Brian Coburger.
24:44
Speaker 2: They're not gonna lie about that under oath. I hope
24:48
Speaker 2: they do it. Nothing can make me happier ridder.
24:52
Speaker 6: Listen, the defense is holding the prosecution's feet to the
24:56
Speaker 6: fire here. If they want to say he bought a
24:58
Speaker 6: knife on the sh account and lo and behold that
25:01
Speaker 6: account is shared by others, well then they better be
25:04
Speaker 6: able to back it up and prove that in fact,
25:06
Speaker 6: it was him purchasing it. Now, the idea that one
25:09
Speaker 6: account can have several different logins and that you can
25:12
Speaker 6: track that log into a particular individual, sure that sounds
25:15
Speaker 6: like evidence that's pointing towards that direction. But who else
25:18
Speaker 6: is able to access those different sub accounts? Are Does
25:22
Speaker 6: that mean that you have to have a unique log
25:24
Speaker 6: in information and password. I don't know. The problem is
25:27
Speaker 6: we don't know the problem.
25:29
Speaker 1: And I'm a little surprised because you're totally losing my point,
25:35
Speaker 1: my point. Let me break it down for you, ritter
25:38
Speaker 1: as if you need my help, please fine.
25:41
Speaker 2: Go ahead to fence.
25:42
Speaker 1: In fact, I assist you bring it up in the
25:44
Speaker 1: opening statement that somebody else could have ordered the k
25:49
Speaker 1: bar nine. Yes, it's on the state to prove he
25:52
Speaker 1: did it. But you just heard Sydney sum it up
25:54
Speaker 1: in about three sentences. It was very convincing.
25:57
Speaker 2: Go ahead.
25:58
Speaker 1: I'd be mad if you didn't, because once you do that,
26:02
Speaker 1: the state is going to bring on everybody on that
26:06
Speaker 1: family account and ask them under oath did.
26:09
Speaker 2: You order it? Did you order it? Did you order it?
26:12
Speaker 2: Did you order it?
26:14
Speaker 1: And when every family member, all four of them, say no,
26:17
Speaker 1: I didn't order it, then the defense looks like a
26:20
Speaker 1: big fat liar, and so does Brian Coburger.
26:23
Speaker 2: So is that what you want, Ridder?
26:25
Speaker 6: Or they say, I don't know. You're talking about purchases
26:28
Speaker 6: made years ago. You're talking about we make several purchases,
26:32
Speaker 6: including camping equipment, including things like knives. Is it impossible
26:37
Speaker 6: that I ever purchased a knife in the past when
26:39
Speaker 6: I have a specific memory of it.
26:41
Speaker 1: Now, No, Look, somebody may fall for that BS in court,
26:46
Speaker 1: but I'm not falling for it. I appreciate what you're doing.
26:48
Speaker 1: It's very artful. It's wildy like a fox. But Joe
26:52
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, you hear Ridder comparing apples and oranges right here,
26:56
Speaker 1: and that works a lot of time. My head blow
26:58
Speaker 1: off in the court because I couldn' jump in like
27:00
Speaker 1: I'm doing right now.
27:02
Speaker 2: This is not about what may have been ordered three
27:04
Speaker 2: years ago. This is about what was.
27:06
Speaker 1: Ordered just before four students were slaughtered butchered in their
27:13
Speaker 1: beds by.
27:15
Speaker 2: Akbar knife, by a knife matching the one Coburger ordered.
27:22
Speaker 1: So, Joe Scott, the knife, you want to tell me
27:28
Speaker 1: a knife this size, a military knife. Let's see a
27:31
Speaker 1: picture of the knife. Please control room. That Mama and
27:36
Speaker 1: Pau Pau bought the knife. Sister, the one writing the book,
27:40
Speaker 1: the shrink the other one what they bought a knife
27:42
Speaker 1: just before the murders and had it shipped to Coburger.
27:45
Speaker 1: Tell us about the knife.
27:47
Speaker 9: It's a combat knife, Nancy, and our troopers have carried
27:50
Speaker 9: it since literally prior to World War Two. The Coast's
27:56
Speaker 9: used it, Navy used it on decks, but it's generally
28:01
Speaker 9: associated with the United States Marine Corps. As matter of fact,
28:04
Speaker 9: the sheath that he had had the anchor globe and
28:10
Speaker 9: eagle and blazoned on the sheet itself, and it said USMC.
28:16
Speaker 9: All right. So with that said, we have to understand.
28:20
Speaker 9: So if you're going to purchase a knife, let's say
28:24
Speaker 9: you want to go hunting, there are a lot more
28:28
Speaker 9: There are a lot more knives out there that would
28:30
Speaker 9: be more apropos for hunting. Perhaps, Why would somebody up
28:37
Speaker 9: in age want this knife? What are they going to do?
28:39
Speaker 9: Sit around? Are they going to peel apples with it?
28:41
Speaker 9: Peel potatoes with it back in the kitchen. I don't
28:44
Speaker 9: understand the utility of it in a common household. And
28:48
Speaker 9: I think one of the things that we're kind of
28:50
Speaker 9: skipping over here we keep talking about ordering. I want
28:53
Speaker 9: to know about delivery. Where was it delivered to? Was
28:58
Speaker 9: there any contact with the person it was delivered too.
29:02
Speaker 9: I'd be interested to know if we're going to have
29:03
Speaker 9: a driver that's going to get up on the stand
29:05
Speaker 9: and make testimony. I don't know how they'll keep track
29:08
Speaker 9: of all that sort of thing, but there will be
29:11
Speaker 9: a tracking relative to this. You know, we're tracking who's
29:14
Speaker 9: ordering the thing, but who took delivery up, When did
29:18
Speaker 9: it show up, where did it show up. All of
29:20
Speaker 9: these little intricacies are going to be playing into this
29:23
Speaker 9: as well.
29:23
Speaker 2: Nan, Hey, what about this?
29:25
Speaker 1: A lot of drivers AB or Amazon have, like cops
29:29
Speaker 1: have dash can video going on. I wonder if that
29:32
Speaker 1: has been retrieved or I'm trying to remember. I think
29:34
Speaker 1: I have it in my notes when I went to
29:37
Speaker 1: Coburger's pulling An apartment, spoke to all of his neighbors.
29:41
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I saw cameras. I'm not sure because
29:47
Speaker 1: I looked at so many places. But if there is
29:51
Speaker 1: surveillance from that day from that delivery man, that would
29:55
Speaker 1: be a bombshell. But here is the fly in the ointment.
30:02
Speaker 1: At the time the knife was ordered, it was eight
30:07
Speaker 1: months before the murders.
30:12
Speaker 2: Okay, so at that.
30:13
Speaker 1: Time Coburger was not yet living in Pullman. His dad
30:18
Speaker 1: hadn't driven him out there and tried to make friends
30:20
Speaker 1: for him. Right, he actually went to neighbors saying, hey,
30:23
Speaker 1: could you be friend my son.
30:24
Speaker 2: He's very much of a loner.
30:28
Speaker 1: So anyway, the knife did go to the family's place.
30:33
Speaker 1: Now wait, wait, wait, Sidney Sumner, I may have an
30:37
Speaker 1: answer for that. After the murders, isn't it true that
30:42
Speaker 1: someone went online to order a replacement knife. Was that
30:48
Speaker 1: replacement knife ever delivered?
30:50
Speaker 3: No, Nancy, a replacement knife was never purchased. But in
30:54
Speaker 3: the week after the homicides, somebody did go online on
30:59
Speaker 3: that shared Oberger family account and look at similar knives
31:04
Speaker 3: to the one that was used allegedly in the murders.
31:08
Speaker 1: Okay, In Sydney. Isn't it true that someone also went
31:12
Speaker 1: on and try to delete the Amazon search history? I
31:17
Speaker 1: know for a fact that that's possible because Santa tries
31:21
Speaker 1: to delete the search history, so the Christmas recipients don't
31:26
Speaker 1: see the search history on the shared Amazon accounts.
31:30
Speaker 2: See, this jury's going to know all of this, the
31:32
Speaker 2: ins and out. Did someone try to delete the search history?
31:36
Speaker 3: That's also correct. We're still trying to get some more
31:38
Speaker 3: details on that timeline, and again all of this will
31:41
Speaker 3: come out much more clearly during the trial.
31:44
Speaker 2: But we believe the time.
31:46
Speaker 3: That has purchased eight months before the murders, at some
31:50
Speaker 3: point after that knife is delivered, somebody tries to go
31:54
Speaker 3: in and delete record of that purchase. And then a
31:58
Speaker 3: week after the murders, how many goes and books at
32:01
Speaker 3: that knife? Again on Amazon.
32:09
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, you know, Chris mcdonnald and
32:16
Speaker 1: joining me Director Cold Case Foundation also starred the Interview
32:20
Speaker 1: Room on YouTube. Chris, you first raised the alarm and
32:24
Speaker 1: the wave the red flag on the Amazon analytics months
32:29
Speaker 1: and months and months ago. Why do they care? What
32:33
Speaker 1: are they looking for? And now we know, Chris, you
32:36
Speaker 1: were right?
32:37
Speaker 11: Yeah?
32:37
Speaker 8: And what Doc Morgan was talking about, I mean, the
32:40
Speaker 8: intricacy of that particular knife. If you look at it,
32:44
Speaker 8: that knife has what they call a blood groove in it.
32:47
Speaker 8: Uh that that knife is designed to kill. It was
32:52
Speaker 8: designed for the military. So when you when you talk about,
32:56
Speaker 8: you know, another fly in the ointment for a moment here, Nancy,
33:00
Speaker 8: Let's also remember that somehow that knife sheath ends up
33:04
Speaker 8: a couple of thousand miles away underneath one of the
33:07
Speaker 8: victims in this case. So if the family's going to say,
33:11
Speaker 8: you know, hypothetically, if the defense is going to say, yeah,
33:14
Speaker 8: the mom or the dad or whoever, the two sisters
33:17
Speaker 8: ordered this knife, well great, let's see their DNA.
33:20
Speaker 5: Let's see their DNA on that knife sheath.
33:24
Speaker 2: Scott. Yeah.
33:25
Speaker 9: One of my biggest things here, Nancy, is the fact
33:28
Speaker 9: that if you go back and you look at this
33:30
Speaker 9: idea of who ordered the knife, if all of I
33:34
Speaker 9: don't know who's domicile in his house in Pennsylvania along
33:38
Speaker 9: with him, his mom and dad. I don't know if
33:40
Speaker 9: the sisters are there. I have no idea, but I
33:43
Speaker 9: do know this, If the occupants of that domicile are
33:47
Speaker 9: compelled to testify in this trial, not only are they
33:50
Speaker 9: going to say, well, did you order it on the
33:52
Speaker 9: family account? They're going to be asked a follow up question, well,
33:56
Speaker 9: we know that it was delivered, did you sign for it,
33:59
Speaker 9: did you take it off the porch? Did you receive it?
34:02
Speaker 9: And there's going to be a big dead silence in
34:05
Speaker 9: that in that courtroom, because I don't know unless somebody
34:09
Speaker 9: were bold enough to try to cover their tracks for
34:12
Speaker 9: this guy or try to lie on his behalf. Not
34:15
Speaker 9: that they would, but aside from that, there's going to
34:20
Speaker 9: be silence in the courtroom because we know who took
34:22
Speaker 9: delivery of a knife or who collected it off of
34:24
Speaker 9: the porch. No one else is going to be there
34:27
Speaker 9: saying that they saw it.
34:37
Speaker 2: Okay, And how old is she?
34:39
Speaker 6: She's twenty twenty, you said.
34:44
Speaker 10: Twenty.
34:45
Speaker 11: Here's okay them clo, clo.
34:49
Speaker 7: Okay.
34:49
Speaker 6: I need someone who stops passing the phone around because
34:52
Speaker 6: I've talked to four different people.
34:53
Speaker 5: Hey, sorry, they just give me the phone.
34:55
Speaker 2: Is she breathing?
34:57
Speaker 7: Will Hello?
34:58
Speaker 5: Is she breathing? No?
35:04
Speaker 1: You are hearing a female resident of the home on
35:07
Speaker 1: King Road and they had called a friend over and
35:12
Speaker 1: you hear the friends say get out, get out, get out,
35:15
Speaker 1: because he did not want Dylan and or Bethany the
35:19
Speaker 1: roommates to come and see Xana's butchered body.
35:24
Speaker 2: Speaking of Dylan Mortenson.
35:27
Speaker 1: We believe that there is a move of foot to
35:31
Speaker 1: have her on the stand for many reasons, but to
35:35
Speaker 1: make a voice an in court in front of the
35:38
Speaker 1: jury voice identification of Brian Coburger.
35:45
Speaker 2: Remember the roommates, one or both of them heard I'm
35:50
Speaker 2: here to help you. I'm here to help you.
35:53
Speaker 1: That was said to the murder victims before they were slaughtered.
35:58
Speaker 1: Now we know Coburger may not take the stand, So
36:02
Speaker 1: how can Dylan make a voice identification comparing Coberger's voice
36:09
Speaker 1: to what she heard that night?
36:11
Speaker 2: Here's a good way.
36:14
Speaker 4: What actually happened was I was stuck in the middle
36:16
Speaker 4: of the intersection.
36:17
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was by you full time.
36:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we just got this for you anyway, I'm
36:23
Speaker 1: just gonna get this out here, okay.
36:25
Speaker 2: So can you would.
36:28
Speaker 6: Explain that to me a little bit further So, in Pennsylvania, when.
36:31
Speaker 9: You're stuck with in their tear.
36:32
Speaker 1: Section, you have to make the left.
36:34
Speaker 6: So what would what would the appropriate thing for me
36:36
Speaker 6: to have done? Just Yeah, it's a little bit of
36:40
Speaker 6: confusion with sweeding because someone has stopped. I wasn't sure
36:45
Speaker 6: what they were doing, and then they put on their
36:48
Speaker 6: light to turn Okay.
36:50
Speaker 1: We all learned from the OJ Simpson double murder trial.
36:54
Speaker 1: Never perform a demonstration in front of the jury that
36:58
Speaker 1: you have not practice. Remember when Johnny Cochrane tried to
37:04
Speaker 1: pull the glove onto OJ Simpson's hand, it was as
37:09
Speaker 1: big as a Virginia ham. Let me just say that,
37:12
Speaker 1: I think I could have gotten it on his hand.
37:14
Speaker 1: But that said Dylan Mortenson on the stand to make
37:20
Speaker 1: a voice id of Brian Coberger.
37:25
Speaker 2: Has it ever been.
37:26
Speaker 1: Done to our forensics professor Joe Scott Morgan.
37:30
Speaker 9: I'm glad you threw this to me, Nancy, because one
37:33
Speaker 9: of the things I'm thinking about. We rely on eyewitness
37:36
Speaker 9: ear witness, and I'm thinking, does that fall into the
37:39
Speaker 9: same category. Because one of the problems is, and I
37:43
Speaker 9: can't speak to this because she's a non forensic scientist,
37:47
Speaker 9: she hasn't worked at Laneley, you know, where they can
37:50
Speaker 9: run these tapes and they so I think that that's
37:52
Speaker 9: going to be a major sticking point. They can say,
37:54
Speaker 9: well does it sound like the same person? And I
37:57
Speaker 9: can see the defense objecting to this because they'll say
38:00
Speaker 9: she's not qualified to make this assessment. So I think
38:03
Speaker 9: that the chances of her being able to actually make
38:06
Speaker 9: an ID and that be accepted in court, even if
38:09
Speaker 9: it gets that far, are slim and none.
38:11
Speaker 1: Well, you know what, Joskott Morgan, let me remind you. Wait,
38:15
Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong.
38:15
Speaker 2: Did you go to law school behind my back?
38:17
Speaker 9: No, I've been sitting at her feet all these years
38:20
Speaker 9: learning from you.
38:22
Speaker 2: So, Joshua Ridder, she absolutely.
38:26
Speaker 1: I mean, if she can do it, she absolutely will
38:30
Speaker 1: be allowed on the stand to make a voice comparison.
38:34
Speaker 2: Right, there's no hoop for her to go to.
38:37
Speaker 1: She won't be testifying as an expert. She will be
38:41
Speaker 1: making a comparison to what she heard that night. Of course,
38:44
Speaker 1: they will practice ahead of time, and if she can't
38:46
Speaker 1: make it, then they won't put her up for that reason.
38:48
Speaker 1: But josh Ridder, there's nothing to disallow her from making
38:52
Speaker 1: that comparison. My question to you is, I wonder if
38:56
Speaker 1: that's why they did not have him speak in court.
39:00
Speaker 1: He didn't enter his own plate, he doesn't say anything.
39:04
Speaker 1: The lawyer entered the not guilty plate for him. I
39:08
Speaker 1: wonder if that's why they're keeping him quiet, so there
39:11
Speaker 1: won't be any in court audio of him for her
39:14
Speaker 1: to compare.
39:15
Speaker 6: That is an interesting point that I had never put
39:17
Speaker 6: together before as to why he we've never heard him
39:20
Speaker 6: actually speak in court. But you're right, I mean, as
39:23
Speaker 6: far as asking her to make the identification, I don't
39:27
Speaker 6: know if the judge legally can prevent them, but if
39:29
Speaker 6: I'm the defense, I am still going blue in the
39:32
Speaker 6: face objecting to this because think of how this could
39:34
Speaker 6: work out.
39:35
Speaker 2: One she could say, yeah, yeah, that's how it's going
39:38
Speaker 2: to work out.
39:40
Speaker 6: And then the jury is going to accept that as
39:42
Speaker 6: an absolute ideation of the defendant.
39:45
Speaker 5: And if she.
39:45
Speaker 6: Doesn't identify it, if she says I can't tell he
39:49
Speaker 6: heard the speaking, the prosecution cries that a word. Yeah,
39:55
Speaker 6: but the prosecution can explain it away, Ritter.
39:59
Speaker 1: That's what happens when the state puts up damning evidence.
40:03
Speaker 2: The jury believes it. But you know another issue.
40:08
Speaker 1: We don't have to have him testify, because isn't it true,
40:12
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonney, you've executed plenty of search warrants while the
40:16
Speaker 1: defendant doesn't have to give a statement or speak to
40:19
Speaker 1: police under the constitution. Right to remain silent fit amendment.
40:24
Speaker 1: They can be forced to comply to a DNA sample,
40:29
Speaker 1: they can be made to walk and get their gait.
40:32
Speaker 1: They can be forced compelled to give a writing sample.
40:36
Speaker 1: They can be forced to give a speaking sample.
40:39
Speaker 5: Yep.
40:40
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and then you could give that to an acoustics
40:43
Speaker 8: expert who can measure those you know, those tremors from
40:47
Speaker 8: the voice.
40:48
Speaker 5: One loophole though, is the acoustics in the house.
40:52
Speaker 8: I think the defense can argue, Hey, the house is gone,
40:55
Speaker 8: we can't do a comparative analysis.
40:57
Speaker 1: Thank you for tipping him off to that, Chris McDonald,
41:00
Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall. Again, the whole specter of his autism
41:05
Speaker 1: and his OCD has been raised.
41:08
Speaker 2: The judge has said.
41:09
Speaker 1: Point blank, and I've got him on tape saying he
41:13
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be impinged in any way. So unless
41:19
Speaker 1: he takes a stand, you're not bringing in autism because
41:22
Speaker 1: he's exhibited no odd behavior.
41:24
Speaker 2: In the courtroom at all. Is that real?
41:29
Speaker 1: What would you expect to see from someone that's barely
41:32
Speaker 1: under the spectrum.
41:33
Speaker 7: Well, first of all, we're all on the spectrum.
41:36
Speaker 2: Everybody is neuroatypical.
41:38
Speaker 7: So the idea that he is special in any real
41:41
Speaker 7: way I do not buy the fact that he.
41:43
Speaker 2: Was a PhD student.
41:45
Speaker 7: He was getting through school functioning at a very high level.
41:48
Speaker 2: That means that.
41:49
Speaker 7: He's competent enough to stand trial. Now, if I were
41:52
Speaker 7: the defense attorneys, I would not be introducing autism for
41:55
Speaker 7: a very specific reason, and that is that people who
41:58
Speaker 7: are very severe in terms of their diagnosis tend to
42:02
Speaker 7: have preoccupations. So if there's a homicidal preoccupation, it would
42:07
Speaker 7: be very difficult for an autistic person to get that
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Speaker 7: out of their mind. They also have preoccupations with physical objects.
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Speaker 7: It could be a train, it could be a book,
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Speaker 7: it could be a knife, a knife that's ordered eight
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Speaker 7: months before a murder, a knife that's re ordered again
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Speaker 7: because that autistic person is obsessed with the knife. So
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Speaker 7: I would be very careful with this autistic diagnosis if
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Speaker 7: I were them.
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Speaker 2: Really, it can cut both ways.
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Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. A trial date set forward
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Speaker 1: this summer, and we will be there. Nancy Grace signing off,
42:44
Speaker 1: goodbye friend.