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What I've Learnt - Marcia Hines · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Australia's beloved musical treasure, Marsha Hines, has a career spanning five decades, has released 22 albums, sold 2.6 million copies, and garnered countless chart-topping singles and multi-platinum records globally.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Marsha's an inspiration to women and Australians everywhere, constantly reinventing herself and setting industry benchmarks.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Moving from Boston, Massachusetts to Sydney at just 16 to star in the Australian production of Hair, she was the first black woman to star in Jesus Christ Superstar.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Marsha was Australian Idol's favourite judge for the show seven consecutive years and was inducted into the ARIA Hall of Fame in 2007.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: She also received the Order of Australia in 2009 for her services to the Australian entertainment industry as a performer, judge, and mentor, and to the community through a range of charitable organisations.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: This was followed by a starring role in the Adelaide Fringe Festival season of Velvet Rewired, that again had the public and critics alike referring to it as the best show at the fringe.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: However, the global pandemic arrived and curtailed life performances in Australia.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: So Marcia returned to the recording studio and added three new songs to the upcoming greatest hits package called Still Shining, the 50th Anniversary Collection, followed by The Gospel According to Marcia, an album of gospel songs that Marcia grew up singing in the churches of Boston.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: The impact of COVID-19 on the life and times of the performing arts industry has become a concern to Marsha, and she's now a spokesperson for hashtag Vax the Nation, the Australia Live Events Industries campaign for recognition of the impact COVID-19 has had on the industry and the need for Australians to get vaccinated as quickly as possible and allow the business of performance to return to the stage.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Having interviewed Marcia for my What I've Learnt podcast Learnt column almost a decade ago, her timeless beauty and energy is inspiring.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Marcia, I saw your wonderful show Velvet a few years ago, paying homage to some of the greatest global soul songs.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: How do you prepare for such an intense and energetic show?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're like a 20-year-old.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: No joke, you're so timeless.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: I said, you know, I got to get match fit.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what I do is I just eat well and I try and exercise a lot.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: Exercising, everybody knows it's boring, but it's got to be done.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be anything much, but just, you know, moving around and just sort of, you know, doing what you got to do to sort of stay match fit.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, Deborah, we've we've not been working for so long that, you know, you just sort of like you become a bit of a slough.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, I know it's really like I tell you what, the home gym, everybody's setting up home gyms and anything they can do, and a lot of walking.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of walking.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think walking is probably one of the best exercises you can do.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Helps the mental health as well.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really important.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you get to see stuff.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: When you're driving, you don't see anything.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: When you're walking, you see a lot of people.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's very true.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so for you, you know, the Velvet Show was really quite beautiful.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I know it's still running, and it's just incredible how I mean you're back on the road and everything is still people just loved that iconic music.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like actually, I saw respect on the weekend.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: The new um loved it, but that Jennifer, Jennifer Hudson, she's pretty incredible.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty extraordinary woman.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: She is.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: But it's almost like these songs do not date.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think you know, they were the tapestry of our lives.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now, whether or not you grew up with them is one thing, you know, as I did, and maybe you did too, yeah.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Then a lot of movies, if you if you if you if you take notice of this, a lot of movies, they use those songs for their soundtracks.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then, if that's not the case, then your parents drove you crazy on weekends at barbecues and embarrassed you dancing around the yard, you know, with their embarrassing friends.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that music came out of a very dark time as well, you know.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was after the Vietnam War.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we'd all gone through that, and all the poor boys had come home and gotten very little, if any, respect for what they'd done for the countries that they represented.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden, this mad music and bad fashion came out called disco.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I still find it very joyous.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't tire up.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I've got many memories attached to a lot of those songs.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'd going out because I toured a lot back then, and then I'd come home and all my girlfriends would drag me out to a disco with all, you know, swap pants that nobody could really fit.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: I recall, I remember those dance.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'd go out and dance the night away, and and those are really wonderful memories for me as well.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think also the next generation, like I know that certainly my children and a lot of the 20-year-olds love all that disco music and are finding it actually, paying homage to it.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: They they think it's so awesome.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, Well, you know, why didn't we have that?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that maybe you point to joyousness and the sense of it was just a happy time.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was a sense of uh innocence of sorts.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Innocence and happiness and joy, you know, and and during this whole uh pandemic thing that's happened, there's been very little any joy.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we're all looking for it again.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a funny thing, I always say, you know, when you look for fun, you never find it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: When a bunch of people are together and somebody draws a record or a CD or whatever, MP3 on the speaker system, everybody wants to dance and have fun.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's true, and and we grew up doing that.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I think there's something to be said for the notion of simplicity.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of those songs are simple, they're they're quite simple in their structure, and you do such great renditions, and and I love what you do.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I also do have to comment on your fashion, it looks amazing.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: That sequence and the what you wear on my I'm a fashion victim, I truly am.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I have um some incredible people who make my clothes for me.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and and we kind of co-design, they'll show me fabrics, and then we'll work out what we're gonna do.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: But some look, I I am very, very blessed in that area.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I I've always liked dressing up.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Back in the day, the person that really taught me to dress up was a lady called Linda Jackson from an incredible store that was in the the Imperial Arcade, not the Imperial Arcade, one of the really cool arcades.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: And she and Jenny Lee.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Jenny, yeah, Jenny Kay?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Jenny Key.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: They had um Flamingo Park, and they taught me to dress.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they look Linda really did.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Linda Jackson was, you know, she was amazing when it came to what to wear and what not to wear on stage.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you learn as you go.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, because I'm I'm sure there are there are some things I wore, I don't, I don't know what I was thinking, but I wore it.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can all that like we've all been there.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the fun of it.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's interesting too, you know, um, as a legendary female performer, do you think mature women like us in Verticommas are now being respected more in our wisdom and experience and even the fact that we want to dress up and look good?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I if I think of my my mother's generation, they weren't as brave, whereas I feel like there's something okay.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: The word is outgoing.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Outgoing.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think I think back in the day um there there was a conservative ship.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think I said it, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Where you know you're expected to be a certain way at a certain age.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now anything goes.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: I look at people, women that inspire me are people like Jane Fonda, you know, Raquel Welch, you know, you know, and I mean, and I I met some ladies yesterday.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I went up to um a place in Sydney called Stad or something, Mountain White that's owned.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, anyways, I want to stop there.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: And there were bikes everywhere.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: John Singleton owns it, and there were there were motorbikes everywhere, Harley, Harley Davidson's, and there were these really cool chicks, all dressed up, about our age.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: And we took a great big picture, and and she said something about being older.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Nobody tells you that the older you get, the better you get.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's the thing about chicks, you know.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and especially if you're comfortable in your own skin and you know you've done what you want to do, and you know, it's a great thing bringing up children.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Children get you to know yourself better than you ever thought you could.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Ain't that the truth?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, on that note, actually, I'm very interested because I'm also, you know, I'm a mother.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Life is a mother to Jenny, also a very successful musician.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: How's your relationship evolved and what have you taught each other as a mother and daughter?
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you know you're a mother, right?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: What would my daughter listen?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: What would my daughter listen?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: I I got nothing to tell her, she knows everything.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the relationship that mother and daughters have, you know.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's just them growing up and breaking away, becoming their own people.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that is expected, and it's exactly what you have, you know.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think also, I must say I do learn a lot from them, but I think coming back to that notion that women of our age and our generation, I feel there is this respect and this sense that we do have wisdom, that we have, I suppose, run the road less traveled and we've actually carved a pathway.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that there is a sense that, you know, where where are I?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: We don't, whereas we used to be invisible and some people talk about that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas one thing I really note about what you do, you're a very good role model saying, you know, it doesn't matter what age I am, it's how I feel, and you own it.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that I have great respect for that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And how you present yourself, you know, I know I'm not 20.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be 20.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: I was 20 for a whole year, Deborah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm very happy with the age that I am at, you know, and I think if you try and stay fit and try and just be happy what you see in the mirror, be happy with yourself, you know, and every day can't be like bliss, you know, like that song says, some days a diamond, some days a stone, you know.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: So some days are brilliant, some days are, you know, are just the normal kind of day, you know.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: But in a sense, I suppose that's really what a lot of the music that you sing and a lot of the music is about that, is exactly why it's so comforting.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's it's about all of those themes that we all feel every day.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And somehow music has that capacity to just lock it down and make it clearer.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's the best thing about music.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: It I mean, for me, even I've been doing it for most of my life, and I still find it incredibly surprising, but you know, and and very surprising and still very giving, you know.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I learn something every time I do something musical, you know, anytime I record or anytime I've got to do something and get out of my comfort zone to learn something else, it's a great thing.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really good point, actually.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, growing up in Boston, what did gospel give you and teach you, and how does it reflect in your music?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because I can't wait to hear your album, The Gospel According to Marsha.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this sounds wonderful.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's been um a great journey because I learned to sing in church.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'll tell you the wee story.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: The story is in church, children were not allowed in the choir box because you know, we'd make noise and be bad, you know.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And because my godmother, Flo, she was the lead singer in our choir, in her choir box.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so because she was blind, I was able to lead her up and just sit with her.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just sat there and learned everything I could, as you do.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, and and that was a wonderful thing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: But she was with the Baptist church.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: My mother was Church of England, so I'd go to two churches on the on the Sunday, and so I'd learn, you know, the Church of England songs, and then I'd go to the Baptist church where things got really rowdy and good.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I was I love that.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you will love this respect movie.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: You'll love it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's all it's all of well.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's Aretha.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's Aretha's um upbringing and everything.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Father was a minister.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, gospel, uh, because it has that, I mean, yes, obviously, there's a great spiritual sensibility, but there's also there's something very deep about a lot of that music.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And has that, do you think, shaped a lot of what you are drawn to?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, um, I try and only sing songs that I believe in.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: So, and I've been in a position where I don't have to sing what I don't like.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: And if I don't like it, you can hear it when I'm singing it, you know.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh the album that we've just we're you know compiling at the moment, the you know, the gospel according to me, I chose all the songs, you know, and we'll see how we go.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You you usually choose about maybe 15, 20 songs, and out of the 15 or 20, maybe 14 work.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it's better to have surplus, you know.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: But some of them surprise me, you know.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: They really, and I I remember I listened to one last week and got really kind of like, oh, oh, I got a little bit not teary, just it was it was a part of my life that I've not really visited.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: I go to church when I go home, okay.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got um a cousin who runs one of the biggest Baptist churches in LA.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: His name is Noam Jones, and his sisters, the one and only Grace Jones.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: So those are my cousins.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I never knew that.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Are you telling me?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, just to clarify, Grace Jones is a cousin.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, she is.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: How has that never been?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've never, like, it's not in any of the research I did, so I'm very happy to hear that.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: We know it though.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so her brother Noel has got the greater Bethany church in LA, and it's one of the most popular churches in all of America.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember taking um two of the guys from what's it just no, just one of the guys from the Roth Melons there, and it's an all-black church, you know.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and I took Brian Jones, and he was so welcomed, and he loved the experience, you know.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, um, a gospel church is really something everyone should experience, and you'll find that no matter what color you are, you are welcome.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think that's gonna be on my stop when I go to LA.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds absolutely brilliant.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to see that.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Please.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so that is quite extraordinary, too.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, so music is very, you're very surrounded by music and have been your whole life.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Politics and music.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: We just lost a cousin the other day, um, Colin Powell.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And now he was the head of everything that went on in America when it came to trying to get peace, and and some people say warmongering, but I don't think there's anything nice in war.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think anybody goes No redeeming factors really no, but you know, like so my family, they're they're they're very terribly political, and the only musical ones are are Grace and I.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me just on that note, and Denny, of course, yeah.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: So just the Colin Powell relationship, and I saw that he passed, and I saw obviously um I grew up in that era where he was very prominent and through that whole period.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's your relationship to him and how does that how is that also shaped?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: You obviously have a great political understanding, and you're more on the music side.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I never I never ever met Colin.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: He knew I was saying he came to Australia and sent a message when he came to Australia, and um I never met him, and I didn't realize this until about maybe 15 years ago.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got a cousin who's into that whole family tree thing, and anyway, she's the one who said to me, you know, that your cousin is Colin Powell.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, Grace Jones is your cousin too.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: I went, What?
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so yeah, and I mean I've met Grace and Denny's met Grace.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and she could wear, and then when I went to church and um I met Noel, they told him that I was from Australia, and and anyway, we had a chat and he went, you know, you favor Grace, which is very interesting.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I look anything like Grace, but yeah, and she's itty bitty thing, and I'm quite tall.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: She's small.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, she looks so big.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she gives the impression of being like six foot a hundred, you know.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, she's about five foot two, five foot three, it's at the most.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm five's seven, so I'm a tall girl.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that music, I mean, as we know, politics and music are often tied together, as is once again exemplified in that story of Aretha.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you think that it can help with the healing?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I will come to this because I think also with all of the changes and the pandemic and the and the impact on the industry, which we'll touch on, I do think music has been a great solace for a lot of people through this period.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not live music, because we couldn't do that.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, but but joy music, yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Music.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: I still I can't listen to music if I can't listen to anyone singing when I'm sleeping because I analyze it.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I do listen to beautiful um classical music and things like that when I need to chill.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm I'm always listening to music, uh, whether I realize it, and I'm always singing whether I realize it or not.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'll sing a couple lines of a song and go, oh, shh.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or I'll walk into a store and I'll be on, you know, the tanoi in the store.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I try and moonwalk out because I just get so embarrassed.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: You get embarrassed at this stage with all of your amazing performances and albums.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: When is that gospel album coming out, by the way?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Next year, sometime, next year.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Terrific.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll look forward to that.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you've also um obviously as a judge on Australian Idol uh for many years, you were super engaged and passionate about mentoring the young talent.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed you were very caring and you were of course, but you very, you know.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: The reason I was, Deborah, is because people cared for me.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I had people like Reg Livermore and John Waters, and I had the most amazing people around me, John Paul Young.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I had all these people, and they always encouraged me in their own way.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I think being plucked out of obscurity, to be very, very honest about idle, to be plucked out of obscurity, thrown on television, everybody knows your name, everybody knows some something about your family, and then you're gonna stand up there and sing.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's an easy task?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know it wasn't.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I know I'm I know at times I'd be talking to those kids, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be speaking to them, didn't hear a word I said.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't hear a word.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so if I if I could be, you know, like somewhat deliberate, somewhat slow, and hope that it went in, you know.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then sometimes after the show, I would go and speak to them and ask them, did they understand what was going on and why they didn't do as well as they thought they had, and don't listen to other people, do what it is, and just be yourself, always, you know, and that that was my big one.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Always be yourself from the beginning.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you're acting, one day you're gonna forget you're acting, and you're gonna drop your guard, and everybody's gonna see that the person that you're trying to present yourself as isn't there.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and and that's a hard one too, you know.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So authenticity is something that you obviously praise very highly.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Everything.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, then they don't have to remember, you know, like when when when something happens, you don't have to remember that it happened.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's if it's when you lie, you have to remember what that like.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now you go through the file cabinets and your brain going, no, what did I say that day?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So if you just yourself, then that's the most important thing.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what did you learn about sort of the challenges of the music industry?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of lessons did you learn through that process, but also just generally from being in the music industry for so for so long?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's quite a quite a journey and it's a tough journey.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: It it's tougher than tough, but nobody seems to um realize how tough it really is, Deborah.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, nobody seems to understand how tough it is.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't change it for the world.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I've I've had really good people around me to help me through this.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, having my mother and having my mother to go home to each night and all that sort of stuff really kept me grounded because, you know, as I say to most people who are in this industry, don't believe the hype.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I know so be true.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Just do it, do it, do what it is you love, and it usually works out nicely.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And for you, what did you find the greatest challenge?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think I'm still learning.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the business is full of surprises, and and you know, there's so many ups and so many downs, and there are times when you know you've been you've been hoping that a gig comes through and it doesn't.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm a great believer, whatever is yours, no one will take from you.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's yours, it's written.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, is it the erratic nature that is the most challenging, like a roller coaster that you just gotta hold on?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's well said, but it's not that badly erratic, but it's pretty crazy.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pretty crazy um industry, but I think it's not for the faint-hearted bee, though.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh yeah, because my daughter's also she's going into the music industry, and and I can see that it's um it's an interesting time.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I interviewed Nick Littlemore from Panell last week, and they had that amazing number.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: I love them.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't, they just did that song with Elton, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they did, and it's number one everywhere.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: 300 million streams.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: But he was saying, yeah, that very similar to what you're saying, and he was saying that it's really the success is not it's not real and it doesn't feel it's not what you aim for.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually just something you have to do, and you just have to actually do what you do and love, and the rest will come.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not where well said, and you know, with that attitude, he'll do well.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, this is look, I I was taught by so many great people, as I said earlier, and this is just one of the many steps in their lives.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you can't be number one all the time.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, exactly.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: So this is one number one.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then what happens after you just leave it to the hands of the gods, you know, you just leave you leave it alone, you know, and and hope.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be don't don't get me wrong.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I hope that whatever I do is successful.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why else would I do it?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: I want to do it because it's successful and it'll reach people and it'll touch people.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: If that boy has that attitude now, I'm very happy to hear that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he was very impressive.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and also just made it very clear that the success is not the thrill you think it's going to be, that the success is just the thrill of the process and of the production and the journey.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, I think you're reflecting the same thing.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you do what you love and you're authentic about it, that's when you actually get the most reward.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you've been doing that for a long time.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: And also, you know, what happens with the success is your world gets smaller too.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: How so?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: How does that well you you don't have the the freedom to move around as much as you once did?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh well, you can, but everybody knows who you are.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so people say, How do you handle it?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: I say I stay home.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, on that note, we've all been staying home for about two years now.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's true.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we can just, you know, talk about that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how have you navigated the mental health journey when you couldn't perform and do what you love?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of artists that I've spoken to and musicians have really found it quite challenging.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like having your hands tied behind your back.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: What was your how did you find it?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Just another day in the paradise, to be honest.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what was I gonna, you know, like like I said earlier, there are gigs, you know, and there are gigs that you know you you're you've you've signed, sealed, delivered for, and you're ready to do that gig.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm ready.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it falls, it gets canceled or whatever happens, you know, and you just have to learn to roll with the punches.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now, it was strange because so much of our work was canceled.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like, wow.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm a bit of a hulk junkie, too.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I knew it would get back to normal or not normal.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: What else said the new norm?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: I knew things would change, and I know that nothing lasts forever, in the sense that, you know, here we go.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: All good things come to those who wait.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: We love that little vive, we love that little gym.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it works.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and that worked for my mental, my mental health.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Also, we've got a dog, so I walked the dog a lot, met lots of nice people.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, uh, you know, I I've got a very lovely partner, and so just being able to share it.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the very beginning of it, I got very nervous because I didn't, everybody did, you know, everybody got nervous, didn't quite know what it was.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: That was the first round.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Then the second round was okay, so we just have to do this again, you know, we just have to do this again.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sit still, it'll be okay.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And did you find it a time of creativity?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, some people have found it an opportunity to be a little more internal, keeping in mind it's been very traumatic outside, but the internal space, have you found it sort of it's a time you could write or at least reflect or any of that?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: You no, for you it wasn't I don't want to write anything about COVID.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to no, as in write music or or not know that I wouldn't because the way my mind works, if I were to write something during that period, I'd always reflect that that's when I wrote that song.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: So no.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I just listened to I just went into my old record collection and just checked things out and watched really bad movies and probably watched more TV than I should have ever watched.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it's company and it's something that to you know release your mind.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love talkback radio because people say stuff they would never say if you could see their faces, you know.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I listened to a lot of talkback radio.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it looked it was just one of those, it's it's over, which is amazing.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about it now, and it's it's over, Deborah, you know, and and thank God.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we thank God is right, and we live to see another day and hopefully, you know, I noticed a lot of stuff.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: I noticed that people where I live were far more compassionate, saying to each other, you okay?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Do you need anything?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of think we were also busy doing nothing, nothing.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden, when the brakes get put on and you see, you can see certain parts of China that you've never been able to see before because of you know the smog and you know, and certain parts of the mountains in certain parts of the world we were never able to see, and the skies were so clear, and I mean, all that's like I said, I'm a bit of a hook jumpy, but all that stuff made a big difference to me.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: I went, oh good.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: So the earth is being able to breathe again.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: This is a beautiful thing.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Marsha, I have to say, I resonate a very similar view and and lens to you.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, my podcast took off a lot during that time because everyone was listening to podcasts and I've been interviewing a lot of people.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've actually been very connected more than ever.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think than ever, like, you know, so in some ways, I do think I'm also an optimist, chronic optimist.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you're right, the dystopian nature of it all, it's hopefully historical now.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime, you can go back on tour, you can go out, and you can actually go on your journey.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: On that note, briefly, I do want to touch on that recent Four Corners program revealing uh bullying culture at Sony Music.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, how did you find that revelation?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: You grew up in that whole era, you played and you know everyone and every in everyone in the music industry.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think much has changed?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what were your experiences as a young performer?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what changes would you like to see for the next generation?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, any change that makes everything fair.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of think the only reason a person's a bully is because nobody's beaten them up yet.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, where I come from, you know, you know, a bully gets beaten up, and so he should, because you shouldn't bully people.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care if you're a girl, I don't care if you're a boy or otherwise.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to say that I've been very guarded in my career because I've had the same manager.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Harry Miller was my um guardian until I was 21, and then I hooked up with my manager, Peter Ricks, who's still my manager.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: The more people talk to me about what goes on in the industry, I just know that I was shielded.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: I know I was protected and loved.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And also, Deborah, I'm not a drinker.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so if I go to a party and you know, people start getting amorous and just start drinking and giving, you know, getting a bit more game than they should get, I tend to say, uh, taxi, I'm out, I'm out.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: See, so I've never been a social drinker.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: So that's not my thing.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: So the whole thing that happened at Sony, it is it's a damn shame that it happened.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I'm pleased it's been uncovered, but it had nothing to do with me.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also I think, look, that's just one of the stories, but I do think, or you tell me, do you think the trajectory for the next generation of women in particular, performers, but men as well, do you think now with all of these changes in both the film and the music industry that they will hopefully be as protected as you have been?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank goodness that you did have those people looking out for you.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I and and also, you know, um safety and numbers, you know.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And these women aren't gonna take that shit.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Excuse my English, but these young women these days are not gonna take that shit anymore.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is, they have a platform, okay?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: So they can actually out somebody who's been doing the wrong thing to them.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Good on them, you know?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so so I look at all that and I and men, you know, because uh it's not like just women get bullied, you know.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: So so everybody's got a platform now to speak up on, and I think it's high time, and um I'm pleased.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I am very pleased.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think so.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a bit about what's up up next for you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: What I mean, Velvet is touring.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me what your next uh, you know, your future plans are because obviously everything got put on hold, and now we're we're back again.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: My future, my future plan is a very late lunch.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: My future plan is um we're putting out an album of best of, and we've just recorded two extra tracks for that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: But so that's a celebration of 50 years.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: So and then there's the um gospel according to Masha.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then we fingers crossed there, but we're gonna take Velvet back on the road, you know.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I and I love Velvet, you know, I love, I love the cast, I love the crew, I love the story of Velvet, you know, and and I just love looking in the audience and seeing people my age, and then they take, they drag their kids along who don't want to be there, and by the end of it, they're grinning, you know.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, look, I'll work as long as I can work, you know, and I'll try and stay healthy for as long as I can stay healthy, you know, and I mean that being healthy in itself is a gift, you know.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I'll, you know, I'll work, and then Peter's always got stuff planned for us to do, and we talk it through and sort of.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's uh a big concert next year where they're they're closing the Carl Expressway, and it's called Elevate.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And there's gonna be all these concerts, I think, for almost five days to a week on the Carl Expressway.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that's gonna be amazing.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Exciting.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Leo Saya, um David, Campbell, myself, and quite a few other um acts, you know.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so I I'm looking forward to that.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I look forward to any live performance I can do.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's that's where I get my thrill.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can understand that, and to be honest, it's where we get our thrill watching you because you really are just the consummate performer and Velvet was fabulous.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone who hasn't seen it, my listeners should go out and and book tickets when it when you are back on the road.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to thank you so much for your time and your honesty and your inspiration.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: Easy.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's lovely talking to you as well.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely speaking to you.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: You take care.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: I will do my best, you too.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Usually like getting back to the new normal.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: The new normal and out on the road.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Touring.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Pleasure.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Deborah.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: Love death.