Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Bob Spitz - What Makes The Rolling Stones “The World’s Greatest Rock Band”

Transcript

Interview Only w/ Bob Spitz - What Makes The Rolling Stones “The World’s Greatest Rock Band” · The Chuck ToddCast

0:00
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you
0:02
Speaker 1: by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from
0:06
Speaker 1: frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, arteasonal pastries, and
0:11
Speaker 1: fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty
0:14
Speaker 1: five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild
0:18
Speaker 1: Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a
0:22
Speaker 1: slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on
0:25
Speaker 1: your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in
0:28
Speaker 1: nutrients antioxidants. There's also no preservatives and no shortcuts. The
0:32
Speaker 1: Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. In addition to their
0:35
Speaker 1: variety box, they have a gluten free box, a vegan box,
0:39
Speaker 1: and a new protein box. I will tell you I
0:42
Speaker 1: have done the gluten free box. I have done it
0:44
Speaker 1: a second time. I have also used the code the
0:48
Speaker 1: todcast code. You use the promo code toodcast at checkout
0:52
Speaker 1: you get thirty dollars off. I've already used it as
0:55
Speaker 1: a gift to somebody else who loves this bread. It
0:59
Speaker 1: is hard to find good gluten free bread. It is fantastic.
1:02
Speaker 1: They give you step by step instructions. I really dig this.
1:06
Speaker 1: There is nothing like having an artesion bakery in your freezer.
1:10
Speaker 1: Right now, Wildgrain is offering my listeners thirty dollars off
1:13
Speaker 1: your first box plus free croissants for life. Come on
1:17
Speaker 1: when you go to wildgrain dot com slash podcast to
1:20
Speaker 1: start your subscription today. That's thirty dollars off your first
1:23
Speaker 1: box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain
1:27
Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast, or simply use the promo code
1:30
Speaker 1: podcast at checkout. This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace,
1:35
Speaker 1: so use that code well. The beauty of being in
1:41
Speaker 1: the world of independent media these days, into my own
1:44
Speaker 1: podcast is that guess what. Sometimes I'm gonna do interviews
1:47
Speaker 1: and things that just interest me and my generation, if
1:52
Speaker 1: you will, But also what I do think, frankly, what
1:56
Speaker 1: cuts across cultural lines. And there's no sort of bigger
2:00
Speaker 1: cultural touchstone for those of us of a certain age,
2:04
Speaker 1: And I'll get to that in a minute. Then the
2:06
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones, And there's a terrific new biography. It's not
2:11
Speaker 1: that it's not it's not then it's not as conventional
2:14
Speaker 1: of a of a rock band biography as you might
2:16
Speaker 1: be used to reading. This one's by Bob Spitz. He's
2:19
Speaker 1: my guest today. It's it's fantastic. It's sort of it is.
2:24
Speaker 1: It's just it's not fan service. And I don't mean
2:26
Speaker 1: that it doesn't respect everything that the Stones have done
2:30
Speaker 1: and all that, but it really is sort of trying
2:33
Speaker 1: to tell the story. And I think answer a question
2:37
Speaker 1: that I have still in my head today is who
2:40
Speaker 1: are the Rolling Stones and what are they now? What
2:43
Speaker 1: have they been? What did they want to be? And
2:46
Speaker 1: I say this, they're releasing a punk rock album almost
2:51
Speaker 1: at the time. It's almost as if Bob you your
2:54
Speaker 1: biography and they're focus on releasing new music when hand
2:58
Speaker 1: in hand.
2:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're doing this form Chuck, I mean, I'm so
3:01
Speaker 2: I'm so poised.
3:03
Speaker 1: I mean, in all seriousness, right when you found out
3:05
Speaker 1: they were released in new music and you have this
3:07
Speaker 1: coming out, I mean, you're at least your publisher must
3:09
Speaker 1: be ecstatic.
3:10
Speaker 2: Well, well, you're doing handstands here in the apartment, so
3:12
Speaker 2: everything worked out great for us.
3:15
Speaker 1: So let's just talk. Look, you've written biographies about other
3:18
Speaker 1: rock bands. The beauty of this one is ever is well,
3:23
Speaker 1: not everybody's alive, but the key figures are alive.
3:27
Speaker 2: Right.
3:27
Speaker 1: The Beatles is a tough one because you know, one
3:30
Speaker 1: of the most important parts with John Lennon was was
3:33
Speaker 1: was was you were getting them through his spouse. I
3:36
Speaker 1: guess it's probably the fairest way to talk about it.
3:39
Speaker 1: So let me just say, how long have you been
3:42
Speaker 1: thinking about this? And and and when did when did
3:45
Speaker 1: you know you had the right frame.
3:47
Speaker 2: To write this book? Chuck? I mean, you know, I
3:49
Speaker 2: had written the Bob Dylan biography. I got to the
3:53
Speaker 2: Beatles in the nick of time. I did read Zeppe One.
3:58
Speaker 2: There was only one band. It was completing Mount Rushmore,
4:02
Speaker 2: and and it really give me a pause because the
4:06
Speaker 2: other bands had been together for maybe ten years, and
4:09
Speaker 2: so it was a nice concise story. But this was
4:13
Speaker 2: a sixty five year honesty. And so you know, I
4:18
Speaker 2: have to think long and hard about it and how
4:20
Speaker 2: I would be able to tell that story in any
4:23
Speaker 2: kind of a given page count.
4:25
Speaker 1: Well, and you also had two of the biggest names.
4:29
Speaker 1: They've told their own versions of this story. I mean,
4:31
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry. The Mick Jagger memoir was something else, right,
4:35
Speaker 1: we learned a lot more. Actually there was not, I
4:37
Speaker 1: mean the exees me, not the Jagger Keith Richards. Sorry,
4:41
Speaker 1: I was conflating and I didn't mean to Keith Richards
4:44
Speaker 1: memoir was something else. I mean, how you know, I'm
4:49
Speaker 1: and Jagger's been in charge of his story, uh for
4:52
Speaker 1: quite a bit. So was that a challenge a help both?
4:56
Speaker 2: No, it was, it was It was a great help.
4:59
Speaker 2: I mean, look, Keith wrote a fabulous book. That guy
5:02
Speaker 2: pulled no punches. I was shocked.
5:04
Speaker 1: I didn't think that was the book we get out
5:06
Speaker 1: of Keith.
5:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's completely unshouldered, you know, happy to tell you
5:10
Speaker 2: anything you ask him. But that book is a myopic book.
5:14
Speaker 2: It's one man's view of what was happening at the time.
5:17
Speaker 2: And I felt that the Stones were part of our
5:20
Speaker 2: lives enough that they needed a really objective book, say
5:25
Speaker 2: the way Robert Carroll might write about Lyndon Johnson. So
5:28
Speaker 2: that meant that I had to talk to, you know,
5:30
Speaker 2: two hundred people who were colleagues of theirs, friends of theirs,
5:34
Speaker 2: family members, wives ex wives, and really trying to put
5:38
Speaker 2: the story together and at the same time give it
5:42
Speaker 2: a narrative so that you weren't going to be bogged
5:46
Speaker 2: down in it, you were going to want to turn
5:47
Speaker 2: the pages. And that was my biggest challenge.
5:50
Speaker 1: No, and I think trying to, you know, get at
5:52
Speaker 1: what they're trying to. I mean, you know, I feel
5:57
Speaker 1: like you tackled this like a person rather you know
6:00
Speaker 1: that here you're it's a group that's also its own entity, right.
6:04
Speaker 2: It is its own entity. And and really the entity
6:07
Speaker 2: is Keith and Mick, you know, Uh, the entire enterprise
6:12
Speaker 2: depends on their rapport. And that really, you know, is
6:16
Speaker 2: something to look at. All groups that I've considered writing
6:21
Speaker 2: about dissolved after a number of years, you know it was.
6:25
Speaker 1: That actually is what makes it compelling as a journalist.
6:28
Speaker 1: What went wrong? Why did it end? And in fact,
6:31
Speaker 1: it's why somebody wants to buy the book, you know,
6:35
Speaker 1: you know constant when why won't let Zeppelin, you know,
6:37
Speaker 1: get together? Why couldn't you Jason Bonham, you know, be
6:41
Speaker 1: the be the glue? What what happened between Jimmy and Robert?
6:44
Speaker 2: Right?
6:45
Speaker 1: Like it is with the Stones, you didn't have that
6:50
Speaker 1: they and I you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do something.
6:54
Speaker 1: There's you know, the Stones. It's funny that you did
6:59
Speaker 1: them for right, Like, if you think about it, right,
7:01
Speaker 1: Dylan led Zeppelin, the Beatles all felt more innovative than
7:06
Speaker 1: the Stones, and yet the Stones endurance is what's made
7:10
Speaker 1: them innovative.
7:12
Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, they're endurance. But you know, the Stones, what
7:15
Speaker 2: the Stones gave us is rock and roll. The Beatles
7:19
Speaker 2: at the time the Stones came about, We're doing two
7:22
Speaker 2: and a half minute pop songs for girls. You know.
7:25
Speaker 2: It developed into much more than that, of course, but
7:28
Speaker 2: the Stones did something different. They took the Blues and
7:32
Speaker 2: they hot wired it and they gave us a rock
7:35
Speaker 2: and roll sound that is the foundation of everything that
7:38
Speaker 2: came after it. It was a garage band sound, and
7:42
Speaker 2: that's what everybody built on. That's what led Zeppelin build on.
7:46
Speaker 2: I mean, Fleetwood, Mac build on. Everybody built on that
7:50
Speaker 2: kind of garage band sound. And I think, you know,
7:53
Speaker 2: everybody was calling the Stones the greatest rock and roll
7:55
Speaker 2: band of all time. I shied away from that a confession,
8:00
Speaker 2: and I was a Beatles guy in that great debate.
8:03
Speaker 1: This feels like Lebron versus Jordan, by the way.
8:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. But the truth of the matter is
8:11
Speaker 2: the Stones really laid the groundwork for all of this
8:15
Speaker 2: that came afterwards, and I was fascinated to watch how
8:18
Speaker 2: they did it. You know, not you mentioned punk before, Yes,
8:22
Speaker 2: the Stones The Stones survived disco, they survived punk, they
8:27
Speaker 2: survived grunge. All those people passed by the wayside. Mick
8:32
Speaker 2: and Keith are eighty three years old and they're about
8:35
Speaker 2: to go on tour again.
8:38
Speaker 1: Let's go to the issue of rock and roll. So
8:42
Speaker 1: what is rock and roll now? And it's and to
8:44
Speaker 1: me this debate is always more intriguing to me right
8:47
Speaker 1: after you have the rock and Roll Hall of Fame
8:50
Speaker 1: nominees and all this stuff, and you're like, wait, we've
8:54
Speaker 1: now defined rock and roll as just countercultural, that it's
8:57
Speaker 1: more of a vibe than a sound.
9:00
Speaker 2: There isn't even rock and roll these days. I mean
9:02
Speaker 2: what the kids are making today. They're not music makers.
9:05
Speaker 2: They're producers, they're performers. They're not in control in the studio.
9:12
Speaker 2: They're not writing you know, original.
9:15
Speaker 1: And electric guitar Bob, I knowess it.
9:18
Speaker 2: I think the only person who's out there, you know,
9:20
Speaker 2: making rock and roll is Bruce Springston. And aside from that, I.
9:25
Speaker 1: Would argue there is some country that is that is
9:29
Speaker 1: called country that when I hear it, it sounds more
9:31
Speaker 1: like that it's been inspired by rock.
9:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably true, Chuck, But but you know what, my
9:39
Speaker 2: daughter who's thirty two, listens to the music that you
9:44
Speaker 2: know I turn off, of course, the same way my
9:47
Speaker 2: parents turned off Elvis what I will. But you know
9:51
Speaker 2: she she listens to people like BTS and and Taylor
9:55
Speaker 2: Swift and they're they're doing something different. Do I like it? Yeah,
10:00
Speaker 2: it's not for me. It's time for me to step aside.
10:04
Speaker 2: Like Joe Biden, I'm going out. Well.
10:09
Speaker 1: I only asked that because if if rock and roll
10:14
Speaker 1: had it continued to evolve, would there be room for
10:17
Speaker 1: the Stone still?
10:19
Speaker 2: I think so? Yeah. You know, look, people still go
10:23
Speaker 2: to Stone's concerts, and when you hear those opening chords
10:26
Speaker 2: to start Me Up or Jumping Jack Flash or Brown
10:30
Speaker 2: Sugar or Satisfaction, those three.
10:34
Speaker 1: I think I was just going to say, I think
10:36
Speaker 1: I've been to three of those three. I think I've
10:40
Speaker 1: probably been in like ten Stones concerts, and I think
10:42
Speaker 1: three of those songs have started multiple versions of Stone's concert.
10:48
Speaker 2: And you can't get off your you have to get
10:50
Speaker 2: off your seat. I mean, it doesn't matter if you're
10:53
Speaker 2: a BTS fan or you know you're you're a country fan.
10:58
Speaker 2: Those Stones songs are killers, and that's what keeps that
11:01
Speaker 2: that music alive and keeps them going. Plus, you know,
11:05
Speaker 2: those songs are kind of rebellious. They have that arrogance
11:09
Speaker 2: attached to them, and every generation adopts to that. So
11:15
Speaker 2: I I kind of understand how they sustained all this career.
11:20
Speaker 1: One thing to me that seemed different, and you tell
11:23
Speaker 1: me and push back if you think this is wrong.
11:25
Speaker 1: I don't think you'll be shy about that, which is
11:28
Speaker 1: sometimes I've felt as if the Stones didn't have anything
11:31
Speaker 1: to say, they were just more interested in their music.
11:34
Speaker 1: And I think this would probably be what John Lennon
11:37
Speaker 1: would say, right, And maybe I'm channeling that. But you know,
11:40
Speaker 1: where the Beatles, there was always something they were trying
11:42
Speaker 1: to say. Even led Zeppelin at times, you know, they
11:46
Speaker 1: were trying to say, I say this, I think Brown
11:50
Speaker 1: Sugar is an important cultural song that that that that
11:56
Speaker 1: that did matter for interracial relationships at a time when
11:58
Speaker 1: it was ill illegal in many states in this country.
12:02
Speaker 1: So I don't want to say they never were quote
12:04
Speaker 1: unquote political, but I've never they were, certainly less so
12:08
Speaker 1: than Dylan were the Beatles, right.
12:10
Speaker 2: Well, they flirted with it, you know, they did straight
12:13
Speaker 2: fighting man, and Nick thought that was you know, a
12:17
Speaker 2: real revolutionary take and then they kind of decided not
12:21
Speaker 2: to do that anymore. So, you know they I think
12:24
Speaker 2: they put that beside them and then they started to
12:26
Speaker 2: make straightforward rock and roll. Their lives got in the way,
12:31
Speaker 2: you know. Then these are guys who grew up fast
12:34
Speaker 2: and grew up hard, and they are they are just
12:39
Speaker 2: consummate rock and rollers. They just want to They just
12:41
Speaker 2: want to play music. That's it. I don't think that
12:44
Speaker 2: they really think too much about any kind of message.
12:50
Speaker 1: Well, and it's funny. I think maybe that's what makes
12:52
Speaker 1: them endures.
12:55
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, because they they're not taking a stand right.
12:59
Speaker 1: And they're well, they're also not trapped in a moment
13:02
Speaker 1: in time even though you I think, let me ask
13:05
Speaker 1: you this, do you think they could have they would
13:08
Speaker 1: have if they needed nineteen fifties and sixties post war
13:13
Speaker 1: Britain's culture in order to thrive.
13:16
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, no doubt about it. Look, it was a
13:19
Speaker 2: rebellious music that they were making. They were supposed to toe
13:25
Speaker 2: the line coming out of World War Two. All these
13:29
Speaker 2: guys were groomed if they weren't going to college like
13:34
Speaker 2: Nick was, but people like Keith were destined to work
13:38
Speaker 2: as klirks for the railroad or in a factory until
13:42
Speaker 2: art schools came about, and that was the foment of
13:46
Speaker 2: all this music, all this thought, those art schools where
13:50
Speaker 2: the kids were just bringing their guitars in and making music,
13:54
Speaker 2: and they rebelled against that English you know, that tired
14:00
Speaker 2: English society, and the music did it.
14:06
Speaker 1: Let's talk about was it a rivalry with the Beatles.
14:10
Speaker 2: And not in the least. No. I mean, these guys
14:13
Speaker 2: loved each other. They were great. The Stones came to
14:16
Speaker 2: see the Beatles. Well the other way around, I'm sorry.
14:19
Speaker 2: The Beatles came to see the Stones when they were
14:22
Speaker 2: just starting out in the Crawdaddy Club, and they walked
14:26
Speaker 2: in in black leather jackets and parted the crowd and
14:30
Speaker 2: stood right in front of the stage as the Stones performed,
14:35
Speaker 2: and the Stones looked down and there were there were
14:38
Speaker 2: the four Beatles, but they all went back to this
14:42
Speaker 2: hovel that the Stones lived in and forged a friendship
14:46
Speaker 2: that lasted for as long as the Beatles lasted. When
14:49
Speaker 2: the Stones couldn't make a hit after their first song
14:53
Speaker 2: came out, who bailed them out? Well, the Beatles bailed
14:56
Speaker 2: them out. John and Paul came into the studio and
14:59
Speaker 2: wrote I Want to Be Your Man, and the Stones
15:01
Speaker 2: have their first record, and they were friends throughout their
15:04
Speaker 2: entire career. They socialized together, they rooted for each other.
15:10
Speaker 2: They made sure they didn't release albums at the same time.
15:13
Speaker 2: At one point, I guess in the late sixties, Paul
15:17
Speaker 2: McCartney and Mick Jagger got together over at beer and
15:21
Speaker 2: they decided that they were going to throw in together.
15:24
Speaker 2: It would be the greatest company in the world. Yeah.
15:29
Speaker 2: I wrote about it in the book because it was
15:30
Speaker 2: a kind of a novel situation that people hadn't heard
15:34
Speaker 2: about before. And Paul leased a brewery in Camden Town
15:40
Speaker 2: and it was going to be Beatleston's headquarters and they
15:43
Speaker 2: were going to open a hotel, have their own studio.
15:46
Speaker 1: My goodness, sounds so very twenty first century of them.
15:49
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a visionary I mean, by the way,
15:52
Speaker 1: you probably could start that today and you'd have a
15:54
Speaker 1: whole bunch of baby boomers wanting to vacation there.
15:57
Speaker 2: You bet their own record label. It would all be together.
16:00
Speaker 2: And I guess, you know, Alan Klein kind of threw
16:03
Speaker 2: the hand grenade in and blew it up. But for
16:08
Speaker 2: a while, they both wanted to do it, and who
16:11
Speaker 2: better than Mick and Keith Keith Mick and Paul. Paul
16:14
Speaker 2: was the guy who kep pushing Beatles Beatles, keep the
16:18
Speaker 2: Beatles together? And Mick who was really the brains behind
16:22
Speaker 2: the rolling Stoney Chuck so interesting that after nineteen sixty
16:27
Speaker 2: seven the Stones never have another manager. Who's their manager?
16:32
Speaker 2: It's Mick, right, Mick is their manager. He negotiates every
16:35
Speaker 2: record contract, every concert tour with every promoter, designs the stage,
16:42
Speaker 2: works out the merchandising, negotiates for all of their travel,
16:46
Speaker 2: and tells the guys what they're going to do. It
16:48
Speaker 2: is that London School of Economics three semesters never gone
16:53
Speaker 2: through it that you know, it's fantastic. I mean the
16:57
Speaker 2: guy is other Roadblade. Well.
17:02
Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Toddcast is brought to you
17:04
Speaker 1: by ship Station. When your company is growing fast, order
17:08
Speaker 1: fulfillment can make or break your success. Ship Station's intelligence
17:12
Speaker 1: driven platform brings order management, rate shopping, inventory and returns,
17:18
Speaker 1: warehouse systems, and comprehensive analytics all in one place, saving
17:22
Speaker 1: customers fifteen hours per week on fulfillment and guess what
17:26
Speaker 1: time is money? So With shipstation, everything you need to
17:29
Speaker 1: manage getting orders to customers is in one place. You
17:33
Speaker 1: connect to over two hundred sales channels instead of five
17:36
Speaker 1: to seven disconnected tools, you've got one. Shipstation compares rates
17:41
Speaker 1: across all major global carriers, United States, Postal Service Ups
17:44
Speaker 1: and FedEx, including your own discounted rates. That's pretty good
17:48
Speaker 1: if you have them to find you the best shipping
17:51
Speaker 1: option on every order and discounts up to ninety percent
17:54
Speaker 1: off set up time saving automation. Ship station picks the
17:58
Speaker 1: best carrier, finds you the best rate, prints labels in bulk,
18:02
Speaker 1: sends tracking updates, and you're done. One million businesses have
18:06
Speaker 1: trusted ship station.
18:08
Speaker 2: Trust me.
18:08
Speaker 1: I have a little side hustle on sports cards. I
18:10
Speaker 1: think I've mentioned it a few times. The most annoying
18:14
Speaker 1: part is the shipping, and if stuff's convoluted, you can't
18:19
Speaker 1: get it done. And that's the beauty of shipstation is
18:22
Speaker 1: it essentially streamlines that shipping process. So try ship station
18:27
Speaker 1: free for sixty days with full access to every feature
18:30
Speaker 1: I just talked about. No credit card is needed. You
18:33
Speaker 1: go to shipstation dot com and you use the code
18:36
Speaker 1: toodcast to get those sixty days for free sixty days
18:39
Speaker 1: gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much
18:42
Speaker 1: time and money you're going to be saving on every shipment.
18:45
Speaker 1: So that's shipstation dot com toodcast. Shipstation dot com use
18:51
Speaker 1: the code toodcast. Well, both Paul and Mick, where I guess,
18:58
Speaker 1: had a little bit more of a you know, they
19:02
Speaker 1: let me and let me ask you this way. Without
19:03
Speaker 1: Paul and mickwould either the Beatles or the Stones been
19:06
Speaker 1: financially successful?
19:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe not, that's that's a good question. Paul was
19:11
Speaker 2: the one who pushed back against Brian Epstein's terrible deals,
19:15
Speaker 2: brought his father in law and to negotiate new contracts.
19:20
Speaker 1: Uh.
19:20
Speaker 2: And of course Mick did the same thing. Unfortunately he
19:23
Speaker 2: brought Alan Kleinen and for a while it looked good,
19:26
Speaker 2: but then it didn't look good and he got rid
19:28
Speaker 2: of them. But the two of them really were the
19:31
Speaker 2: guys who kept those groups financially fluid.
19:37
Speaker 1: Mick and Keith. Ah, Yes, how does this relationship survive?
19:44
Speaker 1: Because it it wasn't It's not. I mean, they I
19:48
Speaker 1: don't want to say oil and water, but there's it.
19:52
Speaker 1: It does seem like an odd pairing. The more you
19:55
Speaker 1: learn about both of them.
19:56
Speaker 2: Look, it's a marriage, and sometimes it's like who's afraid
20:00
Speaker 2: of Virginia Woolf, you know, and sometimes it's good. The
20:06
Speaker 2: great thing about their relationship is that they have different tasks.
20:11
Speaker 2: You know. Mick is the libidinous peacock, the showman, and
20:16
Speaker 2: Keith is the riffmaster, and they don't compete, they really don't.
20:23
Speaker 2: Keith is happy to let Mick be the front man,
20:26
Speaker 2: and for most of the time when they're on the road,
20:30
Speaker 2: when they're working, the bad boys stay out of trouble.
20:33
Speaker 2: But there was that period in the mid nineties when
20:37
Speaker 2: it almost fell apart when Mick decided he was going
20:40
Speaker 2: to make a solo album and tour without the Stones
20:43
Speaker 2: but sing Stones songs, and Keith was furious and he
20:50
Speaker 2: wanted to blow up the Stones. At that time, those
20:53
Speaker 2: guys didn't speak. Keith's slagged Mick off and the press
20:58
Speaker 2: he referred to him as I remember that. Yeah, he
21:02
Speaker 2: always referred to him as her Majesty or Brenda, because
21:07
Speaker 2: Keith had walked past a bookstore on Rude Rivelli in
21:10
Speaker 2: Paris and there was a fiction book by a woman
21:13
Speaker 2: named Brenda Jagger, so became Brenda all the time. But
21:18
Speaker 2: you know, when they weren't talking to each other, when
21:22
Speaker 2: it looked like it was all going to be rend asunder,
21:27
Speaker 2: Keith married Patty Hanson, and who stands up for him?
21:30
Speaker 2: Nick stands up for him as best man, So you know,
21:33
Speaker 2: go figure. I mean, these guys shouldn't have been in
21:36
Speaker 2: the same cage together, but they continue to find a
21:40
Speaker 2: way to work together. And it's the music that keeps
21:44
Speaker 2: them going. These guys loved to play, They love to perform.
21:50
Speaker 2: I saw them at Sofi Stadium in California about a
21:53
Speaker 2: year and a half ago, and there was a presentium
21:56
Speaker 2: out from the stage jump that was at least two
21:59
Speaker 2: blocks and Mick danced on that thing for two and
22:04
Speaker 2: a half hours. And I had to jab my wife's
22:06
Speaker 2: in the ribs and say, you're go get it an
22:08
Speaker 2: eighty two year old man, I am.
22:11
Speaker 1: It's always a marvel at at watching Nick at a concert. Look,
22:16
Speaker 1: I will confess. So my first Stones concert was nineteen
22:19
Speaker 1: eighty nine. It was Steel Wheels and my friends and
22:23
Speaker 1: I were really excited because the opening band was going
22:27
Speaker 1: to be Living Color on our side of the coast.
22:30
Speaker 1: It was a clever thing the Stones did, and you know,
22:33
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about this sort of
22:34
Speaker 1: how they would help other bands. I think it was
22:37
Speaker 1: Guns n' Roses was the West Coast opening act. Really
22:40
Speaker 1: Living Color was the East Coast opening act. And my
22:43
Speaker 1: friends and I we loved Living Colors a little, you know.
22:46
Speaker 1: It was they were a unique thing and African American
22:51
Speaker 1: rock band. There wasn't a lot in that space and
22:58
Speaker 1: at the time my feelings on the Stones and then
23:01
Speaker 1: you see their performance, and to see The Stones in
23:07
Speaker 1: concert is to finally appreciate them in a way that
23:10
Speaker 1: no album, no listening to them on the radio like
23:14
Speaker 1: they were, I think are better as an experience than
23:21
Speaker 1: just simply showing up in your music feed.
23:24
Speaker 2: Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. They know how
23:26
Speaker 2: to electrify an audience. That's always been their secret. And
23:31
Speaker 2: you know it's those rifts that Keith comes up with
23:35
Speaker 2: that just they're ferocious and the minute, the minute the
23:40
Speaker 2: riff starts, mix starts and one mix starts, he entertains
23:46
Speaker 2: and you can't take your eyes off them. It is
23:49
Speaker 2: a whole experience that I agree with you doesn't come
23:52
Speaker 2: off records in the same way.
23:56
Speaker 1: No, it took me, you know, at that time I'm
23:58
Speaker 1: an eighteen year old, you know. That's when I was like, oh,
24:00
Speaker 1: I get it. You know, the Stones just felt like
24:03
Speaker 1: a buck Jesus, these guys that, by the way, Stele
24:05
Speaker 1: Wheels was their last concert tour. That's how they build
24:09
Speaker 1: it as that. That one was a farewell tour, the
24:11
Speaker 1: first of four. How many farewell tours did they did?
24:14
Speaker 1: They finally gave it.
24:15
Speaker 2: Up, right, Yeah. You know they started asking Mick in
24:18
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six, is this your last tour? And they've
24:22
Speaker 2: asked them that after everyone since. In two thousand they
24:26
Speaker 2: asked Keith, is this the end? And he said the end?
24:31
Speaker 2: This is the beginning of the second half. Here we
24:34
Speaker 2: are twenty six years later. I mean, you got to
24:37
Speaker 2: start taking these guys seriously, you know, it's it's incredible.
24:41
Speaker 1: No, the and endurance should mean something, yeah, right, if
24:45
Speaker 1: you're able to get to your fourth generation of fans
24:50
Speaker 1: pargably right, you know, that's that's that's saying something. I mean,
24:56
Speaker 1: I guess Mozart has everybody beat, but outside of Mozart, right,
25:00
Speaker 1: you know that's about it, you know.
25:02
Speaker 2: I mean you have to wonder how they have endured physically, because,
25:08
Speaker 2: as you know, Keith is not a queen living guy.
25:13
Speaker 1: And well, the joke is that he must have been
25:15
Speaker 1: ingested so much stuff it like counteracted with each other
25:18
Speaker 1: and somehow made him bionic.
25:20
Speaker 2: Right perhaps, But I think what happened is these two
25:23
Speaker 2: guys went down to the same crossroads that Robert Johnson
25:27
Speaker 2: went down. They made some kind of pack with the devil,
25:30
Speaker 2: and you know that that is what has kept them
25:34
Speaker 2: going all this time. But you know, Mick Mix stays
25:37
Speaker 2: in shape. I mean, this is a guy who his
25:41
Speaker 2: father was the Jack Lane of the UK. He had
25:44
Speaker 2: a television show like Richard Simmons, and he would say, okay,
25:49
Speaker 2: Mike show them how to do one hundred push ups,
25:51
Speaker 2: and Mick would fall to the floor and do one
25:54
Speaker 2: hundred bushops. Mike show them how to do chins. Mick
25:57
Speaker 2: would do chins and he's been doing that ever since.
26:02
Speaker 2: Last night. I talked to an audience of two hundred
26:04
Speaker 2: people and I said, Mick, you know that Mick has
26:08
Speaker 2: a twenty seven inch waist. Let's see a show of
26:11
Speaker 2: hands of how many of you here have a twenty
26:13
Speaker 2: seven inchwh My god, and nobody raise the Mick has
26:17
Speaker 2: a twenty seven eighties. How tall. He's about five eight,
26:22
Speaker 2: it's five bigges.
26:23
Speaker 1: You know, he comes across taller on stage.
26:25
Speaker 2: They do a good Yeah, he's not. But he's a
26:29
Speaker 2: wiry little guy. You know. When he was a great athlete.
26:32
Speaker 2: He a great athlete with a sense of self, even
26:37
Speaker 2: from twelve years old. He ran a track meet when
26:40
Speaker 2: he was fourteen and somebody said, how did you do, Mick?
26:43
Speaker 2: Did you win? And he said, saad, how I've won?
26:47
Speaker 2: How did my hair look? And that's Mick in a nutshell.
26:51
Speaker 2: You know, he has to look good. He has to
26:53
Speaker 2: be great on stage. So I'm just.
26:58
Speaker 1: Curious if the Beatles in the Stones were so what
27:01
Speaker 1: did did they? Did they embrace the idea of marketing
27:05
Speaker 1: against each other?
27:09
Speaker 2: They didn't market against each other. I think they you know,
27:12
Speaker 2: they made sure they wouldn't compete with their music.
27:15
Speaker 1: But the fans sort of felt that, right.
27:17
Speaker 2: Oh they did. I mean that what I mean they're
27:20
Speaker 2: called Beatles versus Stone.
27:22
Speaker 1: Right, That's what I mean. So it's like I've always
27:25
Speaker 1: felt like the fans of both have really strong opinions
27:27
Speaker 1: about this. And in a weird way, what your burst
27:31
Speaker 1: the balloon you're bursting here is like it's almost like
27:34
Speaker 1: was it was it all for show?
27:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, it could have been. Look Andrew Oldham, who was
27:40
Speaker 2: their only manager, an eighteen year old cocky kid, decided
27:45
Speaker 2: that the Stones were going to be the anti Beatles.
27:48
Speaker 2: They were going to look different.
27:49
Speaker 1: He thought it was a good marketing gimmick.
27:51
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, So he made sure that they didn't bow
27:55
Speaker 2: after songs, they didn't wear suits, they had no respect
27:59
Speaker 2: for the promoters who hired them. That they would be insulin.
28:04
Speaker 2: They would be known as the bad boys. And you know,
28:06
Speaker 2: the Beatles were completely opposite. So of course there were
28:11
Speaker 2: different camps, and there always has been, and then there
28:15
Speaker 2: were different camps when it came to music. I can't
28:17
Speaker 2: tell you how many people I know who think that
28:20
Speaker 2: the Beatles much more sophisticated music puts the Stones to shame.
28:26
Speaker 1: And then the argument, that's the argument that my musician friends.
28:30
Speaker 2: Would make exactly, and I'm a musician and I've made
28:34
Speaker 2: that argument. And then there are the Stones people who
28:37
Speaker 2: say it's only the power of the music. Step aside.
28:40
Speaker 2: Beatles fans, you don't know what you're talking about. This
28:43
Speaker 2: is rock and roll. The beauty of it is that
28:46
Speaker 2: it all works together. You know that these two bands
28:50
Speaker 2: gave us songbooks in the sixties that have endured for
28:55
Speaker 2: sixty five years, and Chuck will outlive you and me.
29:02
Speaker 2: It's the music of our generation and generations that succeeded it.
29:09
Speaker 1: Why did a bunch of British white kids embrace the
29:17
Speaker 1: black inspired American blues better than American white kids.
29:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't happen in America at all, And in fact,
29:27
Speaker 2: even after the Stones broke out with blues, American kids
29:31
Speaker 2: couldn't figure it out. It happened because of the American gis.
29:36
Speaker 2: The American gis when they were in the UK listened
29:39
Speaker 2: to R and B and blues records, and when they
29:42
Speaker 2: left the UK after the war, they left their records
29:45
Speaker 2: behind and the kids grabbed a hold of them. The
29:48
Speaker 2: other thing that really did it is that the blues artists,
29:54
Speaker 2: the old Mississippi Delta and Chicago blues artists, they couldn't
29:59
Speaker 2: get gigs and the United States, you know, they could
30:01
Speaker 2: play some chicken shacks, but they couldn't play the white clubs.
30:07
Speaker 2: The UK embraced them, so they went over to the
30:10
Speaker 2: UK and there were plenty of places for these people
30:13
Speaker 2: to perform, and so the kids got to see them
30:16
Speaker 2: and they kind of grew up with that music. And then,
30:19
Speaker 2: you know, leave it to the Stones to say we're
30:22
Speaker 2: going to play blues music. That was a big fight
30:25
Speaker 2: early on. Are we a blues band or we're going
30:28
Speaker 2: to play rock and roll? And there were people in
30:30
Speaker 2: the band who didn't want them.
30:33
Speaker 1: I would assume Keith still thinks they're a blues band.
30:35
Speaker 2: Right, oh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And Brian Jones, you know,
30:41
Speaker 2: was a gas that they would play rock and roll.
30:43
Speaker 2: And the sixth Stone, Ian Stewart, who was with them
30:49
Speaker 2: for thirty five years, refused not only to play to
30:55
Speaker 2: play rock and roll, but he wouldn't play any song
30:58
Speaker 2: with a minor chord in it. He just said, when
31:01
Speaker 2: you're playing songs with minor chords, I'm not part of
31:04
Speaker 2: the band. Wow yeah, because he was riding true blues,
31:11
Speaker 2: three chord blues.
31:14
Speaker 1: So what what is the tipping point? What's the tipping
31:18
Speaker 1: point that sort of mix it. We're a rock and
31:21
Speaker 1: roll band?
31:22
Speaker 2: Had two words, Chuck and Barry. When they discovered Chuck Berry,
31:27
Speaker 2: they found somebody who had taken the blues to another dimension.
31:34
Speaker 2: Chuck sang the blues, but he with a rock and
31:37
Speaker 2: roll beat. And then the Stones took what Chuck did
31:41
Speaker 2: and they hotwired it and they jacked it up, and
31:45
Speaker 2: so you can see the progression right there. Chuck was
31:49
Speaker 2: the middleman and the Stones took it and ran with it.
31:55
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Charlie, because you seem to think that
31:59
Speaker 1: this is this has changed the band a lot, not
32:04
Speaker 1: a little. Explain.
32:06
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Charlie kept the beat, sure, but Charlie,
32:11
Speaker 2: Charlie was the heart and soully.
32:13
Speaker 1: He kept more than the beat on stage is what
32:16
Speaker 1: it's sort of what you imply.
32:17
Speaker 2: Absolutely he was the heart and soul. I mean, whenever
32:21
Speaker 2: things were about to implode, Charlie would cut through it all.
32:27
Speaker 2: And he was a man of such few words that
32:31
Speaker 2: just three or four words would put these guys in
32:34
Speaker 2: their place. And he had this dry wit. Charlie was
32:39
Speaker 2: such an unusual guy. He was completely straight.
32:44
Speaker 1: He w by that. When you say completely straight.
32:48
Speaker 2: He didn't up until he was fifty five, never even
32:53
Speaker 2: smoked a joint, didn't do it. Wow.
32:55
Speaker 1: So he was just a very when you say straight
32:59
Speaker 1: and narrow, that's what you're mean in there.
33:00
Speaker 2: Well, but there's more to it than that. When all
33:03
Speaker 2: the guys after every gig went out and picked up
33:06
Speaker 2: girls or groupes. Charlie went back to his hotel room.
33:10
Speaker 2: What did he do in his hotel room? He drew
33:13
Speaker 2: every hotel room to scale that he spent the night in.
33:17
Speaker 2: That's how Charlie spent the night after gigs. He was
33:21
Speaker 2: impeccably dressed. He had two hundred and fifty Savile Rowse suits.
33:26
Speaker 1: With That is always what you Charlie was Charlie's luck.
33:29
Speaker 1: That was sort of very interesting.
33:32
Speaker 2: His shoes were always shot. He hated rock and roll,
33:35
Speaker 2: he was he loved jazz. He just played rock and
33:38
Speaker 2: roll because it paid. It paid the bills. And here's
33:42
Speaker 2: some other unusual things about Charlie. He had one of
33:45
Speaker 2: the greatest collection of vintage cars any person. I mean,
33:49
Speaker 2: it would make Jay Leno drool. But Charlie didn't have
33:55
Speaker 2: a driver's license and never once drove one of those cars,
33:59
Speaker 2: so he would.
33:59
Speaker 1: Just collect like they were matchbox cars. Huh exactly.
34:02
Speaker 2: He would just get down to his garage, sit behind
34:05
Speaker 2: the wheel and kind of talk to the cars.
34:08
Speaker 1: Did he ever learn to drive?
34:10
Speaker 2: Never, never learned how to drive, never drove him. But
34:12
Speaker 2: he had maybe thirty of the most gorgeous cars you
34:16
Speaker 2: could ever say. He was also a man who raised
34:20
Speaker 2: Arabian stallions. Did he ever get on one? Never?
34:24
Speaker 1: Once?
34:25
Speaker 2: He just liked to have them. Yeah, he was an
34:28
Speaker 2: unusual guy, but he kept Micking Keith well balanced. And
34:33
Speaker 2: there's a great scene in the book where Mick crosses
34:37
Speaker 2: the line with Charlie and it's one night in Amsterdam,
34:43
Speaker 2: and Charlie Dexham in a very big way.
34:50
Speaker 1: Charlie was the only person Mick would listen to.
34:51
Speaker 2: Right absolutely, or Keith. Actually no, it was Ian Stewart
34:56
Speaker 2: who would is the only person who everybody in the
35:00
Speaker 2: band could listen to when they were screwing around backstage,
35:04
Speaker 2: when they couldn't get on stage. Ian Stewart would say
35:07
Speaker 2: to them, get your asses on stage. It's time to go.
35:11
Speaker 2: He said a few other words that I can't mention here,
35:14
Speaker 2: but they would listen to him right away, and Charlie
35:17
Speaker 2: and Stu would get that band hop in and that's
35:20
Speaker 2: what they needed, you know, Mick to keep the wheels
35:23
Speaker 2: running and Charlie and Stu to keep them in line.
35:28
Speaker 2: And that worked for a long time.
35:32
Speaker 1: Do you think without Charlie they can still feel creative.
35:37
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a very good question. That's a good you know,
35:41
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that Charlie was an impediment to their creativity.
35:45
Speaker 2: There were several songs, more than a handful, that Charlie
35:49
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out how to play. And Jimmy Miller, who
35:54
Speaker 2: was one of their early producers, the producers of the
35:57
Speaker 2: great albums Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers,
36:02
Speaker 2: Jimmy was a drummer, and Jimmy played the drums on
36:04
Speaker 2: a lot of those songs on the album. So I
36:10
Speaker 2: think that when Charlie died it gave them they took
36:15
Speaker 2: a deep breath. But unlike when John Bonham died and
36:20
Speaker 2: the guys weren't talking to each other and and.
36:23
Speaker 1: It just it ended it next.
36:26
Speaker 2: Day, that was it. But when Charlie died, they took
36:30
Speaker 2: a deep breath. But the stones had to go on
36:32
Speaker 2: because these guys just they not only did they want
36:36
Speaker 2: to play, but they liked each other at that point,
36:38
Speaker 2: and so life was good, and they thought, we'll do
36:41
Speaker 2: it for Charlie. You know. In the next night after
36:43
Speaker 2: Charlie died, they still decided to play. They played. I believe,
36:47
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but I think it was in Saint Louis,
36:49
Speaker 2: and the lights went down and there was nothing but
36:53
Speaker 2: Charlie's drum kit on stage, and the place went dessert.
37:00
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you
37:02
Speaker 1: by Soul. So if you love that end of the
37:05
Speaker 1: day unwined, but hate the hangover, Soul's out of Office
37:09
Speaker 1: is for you. These sparkling THCHC drinks and gummies give
37:12
Speaker 1: you the same relaxed social feeling without the alcohol, without
37:16
Speaker 1: the calories, and without the crash. Soul is a wellness
37:20
Speaker 1: brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy.
37:22
Speaker 1: Soul specializes in delicious hemp derived THCHC and CBD products
37:27
Speaker 1: designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their
37:31
Speaker 1: best selling out of Office Gummies were designed to provide
37:33
Speaker 1: a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood and enhance creativity
37:37
Speaker 1: and relaxation. With five different strengths, you can tailor the
37:41
Speaker 1: dose to fit your vibe. So also has a variety
37:44
Speaker 1: of products specifically designed to help you get a better
37:46
Speaker 1: night's rest, including their top selling Sleepy Gummies, a fan
37:49
Speaker 1: favorite for deep, restorous sleep. Look I have made no secret,
37:54
Speaker 1: I am a believer in this stuff. In cannabis, and
37:57
Speaker 1: hemp derived. I do not partake in alcohol. For the
38:00
Speaker 1: most part, I think this stuff is a lot safer
38:02
Speaker 1: than alcohol, a lot less addictive than alcohol. And yes,
38:05
Speaker 1: I have to say I love these drinks. It is
38:07
Speaker 1: the glass of wine and you know, after work, that's
38:11
Speaker 1: what this is. So no hangover and no excess calories
38:15
Speaker 1: like this.
38:16
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan.
38:17
Speaker 1: So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to
38:19
Speaker 1: sold today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty
38:22
Speaker 1: percent off your entire order. Go to getsol dot com
38:25
Speaker 1: and use the word toodcast that's getsol dot com promo
38:29
Speaker 1: code podcast for thirty percent off. And yes, I too
38:33
Speaker 1: am a customer. Daryl Jones and Chuck Level Are they
38:39
Speaker 1: still the new guys?
38:41
Speaker 2: Hey? What he is the new guy and he's been
38:43
Speaker 2: with him for fifty years they still call him the
38:45
Speaker 2: new guy. But yes, sure, Chuck is definitely one of
38:52
Speaker 2: the new guys. I think that a lot of people
38:55
Speaker 2: don't recognize the fact that they're in the Rolling Stones,
38:59
Speaker 2: that the rowing Stone os will always be micking Keith
39:02
Speaker 2: and of course what he now Ron would But I
39:06
Speaker 2: think some of the guys who were sidemen just can't
39:11
Speaker 2: take on that aura. They're not the bad boys. I'm sorry,
39:14
Speaker 2: they're not.
39:14
Speaker 1: The bad But then the Stone stop being bad boys
39:18
Speaker 1: sometime in the mid nineties.
39:21
Speaker 2: There's still they still played to that image. You know,
39:24
Speaker 2: you see ry.
39:25
Speaker 1: Sir, But I guess you know, I don't know when
39:31
Speaker 1: you're getting into fights, that's bad boys. You know, when
39:33
Speaker 1: you're not speaking to it. You know, in some ways,
39:36
Speaker 1: like after they healed their last rift, that it became
39:39
Speaker 1: and that's where there's always let me put another way,
39:43
Speaker 1: there's always like, are you guys still performing because you
39:45
Speaker 1: like performing or you're still performing because you want the
39:48
Speaker 1: checks to keep rolling in?
39:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I think that they don't need money. Believe me,
39:52
Speaker 2: they don't need money, none of them do. But I
39:55
Speaker 2: think when they stop performing, you know, as Keith would say,
40:00
Speaker 2: bring in the pine boxes.
40:02
Speaker 1: I want the bear they're Bear Bryant. I mean, you know,
40:05
Speaker 1: I always think about Bear Bryant, right and these with
40:08
Speaker 1: these older folks and like, and I think I'd be
40:11
Speaker 1: the same way. I'm like that guy died as soon
40:14
Speaker 1: as he stopped working. I don't you know, I fear
40:16
Speaker 1: that's me. So I wasn't king of get it. I
40:19
Speaker 1: was in Keith's apartment one time and I asked him
40:22
Speaker 1: that question, and he took me by the shirt. And
40:24
Speaker 1: when Keith takes you by the shirt, you just go
40:27
Speaker 1: with it. He dragged me down the hall into his
40:30
Speaker 1: living room and he pointed to a photo of Muddy Waters,
40:35
Speaker 1: photos of Muddy Waters and BB King that.
40:37
Speaker 2: Were on his mantelpiece. He said, see those guys, those
40:40
Speaker 2: guys played until the very end into their eighties, and
40:44
Speaker 2: and that's that's what we're doing. I will never stop playing.
40:49
Speaker 2: That's me and I believe him. You know, when you
40:52
Speaker 2: see Keith play on stage, take your binoculars next time,
40:56
Speaker 2: because you'll be sitting, you know, in the next state.
40:59
Speaker 2: And and look at Keith's face. He grins the whole
41:03
Speaker 2: time he's on stage. He loves what he does.
41:08
Speaker 1: So one of the hallmarks of some Rolling Stones concerts
41:11
Speaker 1: are when Mick takes a break and Keith plays his stuff.
41:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, mix mix having a blood transfusion.
41:17
Speaker 1: Probably, I was just gonna say, I mean, I'm like, God,
41:20
Speaker 1: bless him, he needs a break, right, Does it bother
41:23
Speaker 1: Keith that everybody sits down?
41:26
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Keith is Keith is so bewildered
41:30
Speaker 2: by the fact that he can sing. You know, for
41:33
Speaker 2: years he didn't sing, and he found his voice. He
41:39
Speaker 2: made that album, you know, and that first solo album,
41:43
Speaker 2: and it took off and he realized, you know, I
41:45
Speaker 2: can step out and do a couple of songs. And
41:47
Speaker 2: when I saw them last time, he sang beautifully. I mean,
41:52
Speaker 2: I've enjoy it.
41:53
Speaker 1: But it is a different style. I mean, he really
41:55
Speaker 1: is a blues guy. I mean to me, when you
41:58
Speaker 1: the solo album, you realize this is not a And
42:01
Speaker 1: I think that's probably why the crowd they hear the
42:05
Speaker 1: blues and they think, okay, this is sit down, frankly,
42:09
Speaker 1: to be to be totally you know, past the joint
42:11
Speaker 1: around music, not get up on your chairs and you know,
42:16
Speaker 1: yelling screen.
42:17
Speaker 2: Could be that exactly right. Yet you know, just watching people,
42:22
Speaker 2: they do sit down. But boy does he get a
42:25
Speaker 2: hand when he stops, maybe because he stops saying who
42:28
Speaker 2: knows you?
42:28
Speaker 1: I think it's the I do think it's like the
42:31
Speaker 1: the true diehard who love guitar right like and that
42:37
Speaker 1: you know, to me, that's like this lost art is
42:41
Speaker 1: I fear the guitar that that we're just not appreciating
42:45
Speaker 1: great guitars anymore.
42:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, when Jeff Beck died, that really
42:50
Speaker 2: blue hole and guitar or masters and Eric Clapton and
42:54
Speaker 2: Jimmy Page are still around, but you know, it's getting
42:58
Speaker 2: swim out there.
42:59
Speaker 1: Jack White is certainly great, and I don't want to
43:02
Speaker 1: take anything away from him. I mean, he's at least
43:04
Speaker 1: in the it feels like he is always paying homage
43:07
Speaker 1: to those guys, you know a little bit.
43:08
Speaker 2: But what we don't have our guitar innovators anymore. That's
43:12
Speaker 2: the problem. There's no Jimmy Hendrix, you know, and Jimmy Page,
43:18
Speaker 2: who really kind of invented a way to.
43:20
Speaker 1: Think synthesized music killed it is that what killed the
43:23
Speaker 1: electric guitar.
43:24
Speaker 2: Absolutely everything is a push button right now. People who
43:28
Speaker 2: are are coming up these days aren't encouraged to play
43:33
Speaker 2: an instrument. They're encouraged to sing and let the producers
43:36
Speaker 2: do the orchestration, and they push buttons in the studio
43:39
Speaker 2: and that's it breaks my heart. What can you do?
43:42
Speaker 2: It'll change again?
43:45
Speaker 1: Well, this is why the experience. I mean, look, I
43:47
Speaker 1: actually am a believer that the one thing AI is
43:49
Speaker 1: going to drive us towards is to be appreciate in
43:52
Speaker 1: person and live. And when you get our Stones concert
43:55
Speaker 1: and you see that there's a small orchestra he said,
44:00
Speaker 1: you know, and a lot of brass back there. You know,
44:05
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you how I was a french horn
44:06
Speaker 1: player and got a scholarship playing the french horn and
44:10
Speaker 1: when I went to the that was that was when
44:14
Speaker 1: the Stones brought out a french horn player or you
44:17
Speaker 1: Can't always get what you want and didn't didn't do
44:19
Speaker 1: it on a on a sacks, which I could have,
44:22
Speaker 1: you know, which you know, because it's hard to get
44:24
Speaker 1: you know it.
44:26
Speaker 2: It was.
44:27
Speaker 1: It was one of those that for me it was like, oh,
44:30
Speaker 1: the French horn can play rock and roll. I've been
44:32
Speaker 1: trying to tell my friends that it was. Yes, I
44:36
Speaker 1: felt seen, you know, it was this moment as you know,
44:39
Speaker 1: eighteen year old kid, I was like, wow, I feel
44:41
Speaker 1: seen as a french horn player.
44:43
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm let's tell you that. Al Cooper,
44:45
Speaker 2: who played that french horn or Can't Always Get told
44:49
Speaker 2: me that the reason he did it is because he
44:52
Speaker 2: came in the studio and Mick couldn't figure out a
44:54
Speaker 2: beginning to.
44:55
Speaker 1: That story to start the song. Yeah, right, and.
44:57
Speaker 2: Cooper Cooper like you played french horn at the University
45:01
Speaker 2: of Bridgeport where he was in school, and he said,
45:05
Speaker 2: I've got the instrument, I know exactly what I'm going
45:07
Speaker 2: to do with this, And guys like you who played
45:10
Speaker 2: french shorn were all of a sudden cool guys. Trust me.
45:15
Speaker 1: I was able to participate in a few house party
45:19
Speaker 1: bands because I whipped out the french Shorn. Let's go.
45:22
Speaker 1: You can't always get what you want. I finally have
45:24
Speaker 1: my I have my reasoning.
45:26
Speaker 2: But what do you do for an encore?
45:28
Speaker 1: Well, I know that's the that's the problem. There's there's
45:31
Speaker 1: there's a couple of other small trust us as frenchhorn players, know,
45:34
Speaker 1: like all five rock songs that you have gone on
45:38
Speaker 1: that front? What are they?
45:46
Speaker 2: So?
45:46
Speaker 1: What are they?
45:47
Speaker 2: You know?
45:47
Speaker 1: What do you whatether are they? Are they a rock band?
45:50
Speaker 1: Are they more than a rock band? Are they a
45:54
Speaker 1: cultural I mean what is their place in the music universe?
45:58
Speaker 2: Hey? Look? In nineteen sixty nine when they went on tour,
46:03
Speaker 2: their MC introduced them as the greatest rock and roll
46:07
Speaker 2: band in the world, and Mick went backstage and said, listen,
46:11
Speaker 2: don't ever do that again. That's just that's freaking embarrassing.
46:15
Speaker 2: Don't do it. And the guy looked him in the
46:17
Speaker 2: eye and he said, Mick, either are yarn what's it
46:20
Speaker 2: going to be? And Mick said, okay. So for the
46:24
Speaker 2: last forty years they've been introduced as the greatest rock
46:29
Speaker 2: and roll band in the world, and I think that's
46:31
Speaker 2: what they have come to understand they are. They're not
46:35
Speaker 2: a blues band anymore. They do play the blues and
46:38
Speaker 2: it's in their blood it will always be the foundation
46:43
Speaker 2: of it. But they are, without a doubt the greatest
46:47
Speaker 2: rock and roll band in the world. And it's the
46:49
Speaker 2: sound that gives us everything else that everybody aspires to.
46:53
Speaker 2: It's that it's rocket it's garage band, it's honkey talk,
46:57
Speaker 2: it's it's the Rolling Stones.
47:01
Speaker 1: So the Stones endured led Zeppelin did not Beatles, did not.
47:08
Speaker 2: Hey the Everly Brothers brothers, for God's sakes correct?
47:12
Speaker 1: And is it is is the sort of the norm
47:17
Speaker 1: that there's only a Most groups can only handle ten
47:21
Speaker 1: to fifteen years and the Stones are an outlier? Or
47:24
Speaker 1: did the Stones have have a recipe that if other
47:27
Speaker 1: bands had followed it, Led Zeppelin would still be playing today.
47:30
Speaker 1: Although I don't know if Robert Plant's voice could handle it,
47:33
Speaker 1: but still.
47:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, well Robert and Jimmy were never going to
47:37
Speaker 2: appear together again. But no, I think that I think
47:43
Speaker 2: that this the Stone serving normally and and bands can't endure.
47:50
Speaker 2: It's like marriages only have so much time together and
47:55
Speaker 2: after a while you either say, you know, okay, we're
47:59
Speaker 2: not going to have sex anym or but I love
48:01
Speaker 2: you and I can go with you for the rest
48:03
Speaker 2: of your life, or you say, yeah, we're done righty,
48:08
Speaker 2: you know, and that's it. The Stones stopped having sex together.
48:14
Speaker 2: But they love to play rock and roll, you know,
48:16
Speaker 2: they're Yeah. I don't think bands can you grow up
48:20
Speaker 2: and you grow apart. You know, they start as kids.
48:25
Speaker 1: Most bands do, and that's why they break up usually
48:28
Speaker 1: is somebody becomes an adult and somebody doesn't want to
48:30
Speaker 1: be an adult exactly.
48:32
Speaker 2: The Beatles are a prime example. They grew up and
48:36
Speaker 2: they grew apart, and so that's what happens, you know,
48:39
Speaker 2: or or you just you don't have that spark anymore. Yeah,
48:45
Speaker 2: the Stones, God bless them, man, I don't know how
48:47
Speaker 2: they did it.
48:48
Speaker 1: Do you imagine? Let me you know, I think some
48:52
Speaker 1: of us thought the Grateful Dead would stop touring when
48:55
Speaker 1: all the members of the Grateful Dead died. And I
48:56
Speaker 1: know they all haven't died yet, but some key members
48:59
Speaker 1: have and now it's Dead in Company.
49:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
49:03
Speaker 1: Do you imagine in thirty years there is you know,
49:07
Speaker 1: relatives of the Rolling Stones who continue to play under
49:11
Speaker 1: the banner Rolling Stones, a lah Dead in Company. I mean,
49:14
Speaker 1: is this how sustaining it could be?
49:17
Speaker 2: If they did that, Keith would rise from the ashes.
49:21
Speaker 2: And as Keith always says, you want to see the blade,
49:26
Speaker 2: Keith would show him the blade. Absolutely not, they would.
49:30
Speaker 2: The Stones would never participate in anything like that. I
49:33
Speaker 2: don't think it would ever happen. Plus, you know, there
49:37
Speaker 2: are not a lot of males in that family, so
49:41
Speaker 2: he's like Marlin and he's Marvelin. I think it's about
49:44
Speaker 2: sixty years old now, so.
49:46
Speaker 1: You know we're probably talking about grandkids or grandphews.
49:51
Speaker 2: You know, Mick is about to have great grandkids. But
49:54
Speaker 2: he's also got a thirty year old girlfriend, So you know, listen,
49:57
Speaker 2: it's the secret sauce pal.
50:00
Speaker 1: Everybody loves a rock star. That's what it turns out.
50:04
Speaker 1: Nick would just be a creepy old man if he
50:05
Speaker 1: couldn't start me up. Exactly exactly, Bob. You must be
50:10
Speaker 1: having a great time. What's left? Who's left?
50:13
Speaker 2: The profile? Yeah, I'm working on a really interesting book now,
50:17
Speaker 2: can you share it? Yeah? Sure. It's going to be
50:19
Speaker 2: about John Lennon's second act, from the breakup of the
50:22
Speaker 2: Beatles until his tragic death. I think he's an interesting
50:26
Speaker 2: person to look at, like the Stones, like the Beatles,
50:31
Speaker 2: A lot of writers have tried to do it. I
50:35
Speaker 2: think I have a really good insight into it, and
50:38
Speaker 2: I believe the family is going to allow me to
50:42
Speaker 2: be the first person to have access to John's files,
50:48
Speaker 2: his diaries, his journals seen.
50:54
Speaker 1: You know, obviously your your relationships. Doing the Beatles book
50:59
Speaker 1: is bearing some fruit.
51:00
Speaker 2: I thought they'd never talked to me again. Apparently they
51:03
Speaker 2: like it, you know, strange.
51:07
Speaker 1: Well, maybe we've come around and people want, you know,
51:10
Speaker 1: they want the story told.
51:11
Speaker 2: You know, Chuck. In nineteen ninety seven, the New York
51:14
Speaker 2: Times sent me to Wandon to talk to Paul McCartney
51:18
Speaker 2: to do a profile. And while we were talking, I said,
51:21
Speaker 2: there's one crappy biography of the Beatles and it's a joke.
51:26
Speaker 2: And he said, you know, we gave hundred Davies a
51:29
Speaker 2: story that was we made up half of it to
51:33
Speaker 2: protect our girlfriends and our wives and our family members,
51:38
Speaker 2: and what was just entering his fifties and I was
51:41
Speaker 2: there at the right time, and I said, is that
51:44
Speaker 2: the way you want to go out? You want to
51:46
Speaker 2: leave that story behind you? And so he allowed me
51:50
Speaker 2: to be the first person. There was a there was
51:53
Speaker 2: kind of a dictum among Beatles family and friends that
51:57
Speaker 2: if you talk to the press, you were out, you
52:00
Speaker 2: were finished. So for forty years, nobody had ever talked
52:04
Speaker 2: to who were in themates of the Beatles, And so
52:08
Speaker 2: I would go there and ask them to speak to
52:10
Speaker 2: me and they'd say, well we can. I'd say, call
52:12
Speaker 2: Paul and they'd come back and say, boy, do we
52:15
Speaker 2: have stories for you? And I was just the lucky
52:18
Speaker 2: guy at the right time.
52:22
Speaker 1: Well, I uh, there'll be a lot of people interested
52:24
Speaker 1: in that one. You know, Lennon is one of the
52:27
Speaker 1: amazing what ifs?
52:29
Speaker 2: What amazing what if? Yeah, exactly, and I'm hoping people
52:34
Speaker 2: are interesting.
52:35
Speaker 1: I'm then let me close with the question I told
52:37
Speaker 1: you before we started that I was going to close with,
52:39
Speaker 1: Since you're going to work on Lennon, if it's Mick
52:44
Speaker 1: Jagger that gets killed and John Lennon lives are the Beatles,
52:49
Speaker 1: the Stones and the Stones the Beatles, chuck.
52:53
Speaker 2: It would only depend if John could work with Paul,
52:55
Speaker 2: because we've we had ten years afterwards of John putting
53:00
Speaker 2: his own stuff out, and I just I think.
53:04
Speaker 1: That I'd like to believe that those live aid concerts,
53:07
Speaker 1: farm maid concerts, right, all that stuff in the eighties,
53:11
Speaker 1: there is no way Paul would not have been able
53:14
Speaker 1: to talk John or vice. They would have done something.
53:17
Speaker 2: Together, perhaps, but I don't know if they would have
53:19
Speaker 2: created music together. I think after the White Album they
53:23
Speaker 2: learned that they could write their own things and come
53:27
Speaker 2: into the studio under the banner of the Beatles, and
53:33
Speaker 2: so Paul wasn't there to smooth John's rough edges, and
53:38
Speaker 2: John wasn't there to sandpaper Paul's schmaltzy songs. And that's
53:43
Speaker 2: what they needed. And I think had they learned how
53:45
Speaker 2: to work, if they could continue to work together, yeah,
53:48
Speaker 2: they would have endured. They would have been great together.
53:50
Speaker 2: But you know, it's like Rogers and Hammerstein, and you know,
53:53
Speaker 2: at a certain point, you know, it just doesn't happen anymore.
53:58
Speaker 2: Mick and Keith God bless the man they figured out
54:00
Speaker 2: how to do this.
54:01
Speaker 1: Well, look, you didn't just write a book about a band.
54:05
Speaker 1: You also, you know, wrote about the last sixty years
54:08
Speaker 1: of American culture. And by the way, it is fascinating
54:12
Speaker 1: that American cultures and rock and roll is basically only
54:16
Speaker 1: one one actual American had an influence on it, at
54:18
Speaker 1: least that you've written about, which is Bob Dylan.
54:21
Speaker 2: That's right, that's true. Uh. I mean, you know, Springsteen's around,
54:26
Speaker 2: he's pretty great. And the Beach Boys and Elvis Els.
54:31
Speaker 1: No, I mean, yeah, my friend Tony Kornheiser, you know,
54:33
Speaker 1: believes that without the Beatles, that the the.
54:39
Speaker 2: That that the.
54:42
Speaker 1: Jeez, I just that Brian Wilson and that it would
54:45
Speaker 1: all they would be bigger perhaps, And it's not as
54:49
Speaker 1: if the Beach Boys aren't big, but that that their
54:51
Speaker 1: sound would have been seen as more innovative had it
54:54
Speaker 1: not been for the innovative sounds of the Beatles.
54:57
Speaker 2: No doubt. But we have the Beatles, we had, we
55:01
Speaker 2: had the Boys, we had Bob Dylan, we have the
55:04
Speaker 2: Stones all at one time, and they begat everybody else,
55:07
Speaker 2: The Hollies, the Kinks, yes they did, the Yardbirds, It
55:11
Speaker 2: was when I was growing up. It was music every
55:14
Speaker 2: minute and you couldn't get away from it. It was fantastic.
55:18
Speaker 1: Well, I've always been obsessed with the with the with
55:20
Speaker 1: the band family trees, right, the Yardbirds, beget the led
55:26
Speaker 1: Zeppelin and the Clapton stuff, and all the different all
55:29
Speaker 1: the circles that all how how close it was that
55:32
Speaker 1: some of these same bands might have had different members.
55:35
Speaker 2: And they all knew each other, and they you know,
55:37
Speaker 2: they all socialized, and they they were on triple and
55:41
Speaker 2: quadruple bills with each other, and and you know, fed
55:44
Speaker 2: each other, and everybody wanted to be better than the
55:48
Speaker 2: other guy, and so they worked harder, and they gave
55:52
Speaker 2: us this incredible let's say, twenty twenty five years.
55:57
Speaker 1: Of I do I feel like you're almost describing Bird
56:00
Speaker 1: versus Magic, or or you know, or Wilt versus Bill,
56:04
Speaker 1: or you know where the Jordan versus Lebron And yet
56:06
Speaker 1: here they were. I mean, what a what a you
56:09
Speaker 1: know to to almost put it all together.
56:11
Speaker 2: It's right again right.
56:15
Speaker 1: Anyway, as Bob, this was so much fun, and thanks
56:19
Speaker 1: for producing these books. I just you know, The Stones
56:22
Speaker 1: is one of those I like I said, I I
56:25
Speaker 1: feel like I appreciated them later in life sort of.
56:30
Speaker 1: You know, I was a led Zeppelin guy before I
56:32
Speaker 1: was a Stones guy, Okay, And and so there was
56:35
Speaker 1: this you know idea, well, that's yeah, that's radio rock
56:39
Speaker 1: and roll. Led Zeppelin was you know, if you were
56:41
Speaker 1: really a rock and roll right, you.
56:42
Speaker 2: Know that was that was how of course? Yeah.
56:46
Speaker 1: And yet the older you get, the more you realize
56:50
Speaker 1: Stones did something pretty impressive.
56:52
Speaker 2: Yeah they did, and they're still doing it.
56:53
Speaker 1: They're killing they still are, right, my friend, I appreciate this,
56:57
Speaker 1: my pleasure.
56:58
Speaker 2: It was great at it. Hey,