Latest / Boner and Mirror Tarot / The Emperor Is A Shadow Daddy
Transcript
- Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and every week three Tarot cards will end this podcast. One gets fucked, one gets married and one gets pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing because if you know me and you know Bona and Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe the Tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror. a way of meeting yourself through symbolism and psychology, embodiment and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona Emeritaro takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling and which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange ways we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiments, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. And if you want to take the game off the podcast and into your own tarot practice, then I've made something for you. A little field guide called Tarot After Dark. It's packed with ridiculous tarot games, guided reflections, explorations of projection and desire. So you can make your own terrible decisions. and then get curious about what the hell that might reveal about you. you can grab it completely free through the link in my show notes or the link in my bio on Instagram. So whether you're here for the psychology, the Tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Miratorro. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity, and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Mirra Tarot. I am delighted to be joined by a very dear friend of mine today, so a big welcome to you Emma. Please could you tell our listeners who you are, what it is that you do, your relationship to Tarot and your relationship to meaning making. Emma: Yeah, hello. Sorry, I'm still giggling at the name. think it's great. It Molly: Thank you. Emma: is brilliant. Yeah, I'm Emma as Molly just said, and I'm a what am I? I think that's a daily question. But in my kind of day to day, I'm a yoga teacher, Reiki practitioner, sound healer and secret circle facilitator, and then also a barista. So, you know, like to keep, you know, jack of all trades and all that. But Yeah, my relationship with tarot, I guess it's been a relationship since I was very, since I was very little. I was giving some tarot cards by a witch back in the day, which when I was like, I don't know, a teenager, I was like, I've been given some tarot cards by a witch. This is amazing. And I used to, my first relationship with them wasn't even necessarily moving through them in terms of reading them. It was, would lay them out and look at the story and I'd be like, this person went through this and this and I'd see it, like, which is kind of what it is anyway. But back then I didn't know that, I was like looking at the cards and the prettiness and like the story of the humans just as I could see it as a teenager and that was my beginning of it. And then I think I dipped in and out over the years and started getting back into it when I started coming back to my own spirituality, especially when I got back into yoga and started learning to teach and then I met Molly and she had these amazing tea and taro events that you'd go along to and you just get to play with the cards. And sometimes that's what you need. You need someone to say that there's no structure, you just have a go. And that brought a lot of that want to move with the cards again back again, back to me. So most of my practice with it is personal. I do it sometimes with friends and playing around with it. But most of the time, my relationship with it's for me more than doing it as part of my plethora of things that I do in my business. But yeah. That's the long-winded answer, I guess. Molly: No, thank you so much and thank you for bringing T and Tarot into the space. It is certainly the start of my journey as well and the start of what it means to kind of give, give, offer Tarot. And I love that you named that kind of the lack of structure and the lack of rules because of course the Tarot has its structure but I think that the thing that I love the most is when we approach it in a way that is playful. Which is of course why I set up this podcast because what could be more playful than playing Fuck, Mary, Push, Cliff with some very ancient and deep archetypes? Are you ready to maybe make some questionable choices on behalf of the tower? Let's do it. Emma: Let's go for it. Molly: I know that you have your version of the Light Seers, the mini version with you, so I will pull the cards. Emma: you Molly: You can find them so that we can... you know, use those images as well as what you already know. So let's see what we're getting. This is kind of the awkward pause where I shuffle. Emma: I'm excited. Yeah. Molly: I am. it's a goodon. it's a goodon. No, I Emma: I thought that was going to be a bad one. Molly: mean, every time I pull three, I'm like, that is a really good combination. So we have got the two of swords. Emma: interesting. That one's always an interesting card. Molly: Uh-huh, we've got the four of Emma: Ooh. Molly: ones. Emma: like that one I think. Molly: And then we have the Emperor. Emma: got major arcana. Molly: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Very interesting major. I'm excited to talk about him for sure. What kind of your Emma: Thanks. Molly: initial feelings? Emma: Well, you know, when you look at it on the forefront, you've obviously got two of swords is a lot harder card than four of wands, for example. So you're like, you think instantly positive and negative. Maybe that's like going to be your boundary of push or forward. But I doubt it's going to be that simple when I start to think about it. know, Molly: Yeah. Emma: and the emperor, I guess to me, he looks like the fuckboy in this picture to me. Do you know what I mean? Like, maybe especially because like Molly: on them. Emma: I like to have keywords to help me think about things and start my brain ticking when I look at cards. The first one I've got on there is like control and I'm like, that could go one or two ways when you look at that character especially because I read a lot of romantic and romance books and I'm looking at it like, is that good or bad? Molly: Where would he fit in a romanticie? I mean he would absolutely be the you know like the the brooding vampire character that is a little bit evil and controls the lands and then Emma: Yeah. Molly: the princess falls in love with him or something like that. That that is the character. I laugh that the emperor comes up and I also laugh that you said fuck boy because I have said since I got this deck and actually if you've got the Light Seer so you'll know this if you don't have the Light Seer, one of the first things that Chris-Anne asks you to do is to lay out the cards and to choose your light and shadow card and it's quite unique to her deck and so I remember when I first got the deck I laid them all out and I went through and without looking at the keywords I decided on my light and my shadow which one really felt you know super Resonance me something that I'm going towards and which one felt a little bit like earth The star was my was my light card and the Emperor was my shadow card Particularly Emma: Interesting. Molly: because this depiction looks like my first X That looks Emma: You Molly: just like him. I like it is so uncanny energy wise but also facial wise So I've always had a very very difficult relationship with this particular Emperor And with emperors in general, think because I have grew up in a quite structured, organised way. You know, like, I think we're quite similar kind of growing up in that like academic girl, really high performing, high pressure. And so for a long time, I felt the pressure of the structure of the emperor and then kind of mid to late 20s I was like, fuck you, no structure, all flow, all empress. And so I see the emperor and my initial response is like, no, I actually might even push that one off a cliff. But then when you kind of soften into, okay, what actually is the emperor? And I think, Emma: Yeah. Molly: yeah, the emperor has a lot more depth and nuance to him. when I stop projecting my own shit onto the Emperor, then there's some kind of loveliness there. But what's kind of your relationship with him? Emma: I mean, I always find those kind of cards hard energy anyway. Again, I think it's that control side of it, isn't it? Like, ADHD brain doesn't like being told what to do at the best of times. it's, also gives me kind of Saturn energy in terms of when you look at the planets and that like and Saturn energy is a lot of what's going on in the world at the moment with the corporate systems and all of that kind of thing and I'm just like no I want feminine energy and it's not the be all and end all like there you need both they work well together you need all of these aspects the harder energies the softer energies and I'm just like sometimes I just rebel against it because I don't want to becon like similar to what Molly: Really? Emma: you're saying but then when you look at it in that term of when again when you come back to like your romance and romanticie because sometimes that's the character that you want on the fuck side so maybe that's Molly: Thank you. Emma: the one that like you want Molly: I mean actually you know like I could play this game and just have three emperors and do and and and create or Be able to negotiate with myself the way in which the Emperor probably would be an incredible Dom So would be on the fuck side and When I think about sometimes I like to explain kind of the Emperor and the Empress as I the emperor being that container for the empress and how, you know, I imagine the empress going around and like just being wild and sowing all these kind of wildflower seeds and just being really epically flowy. And then the emperor is just slowly and surely building a fence around her. And then she's like, what are you doing? And he's like, I love you and I care for you and I want you to flourish. but I also want you to be safe. And so I'm just going to build this structure so that your wildness can be contained. And in that version of the emperor, I can very much see that he would be a good partner, someone that builds foundations, that builds structure, that keeps safety. And then I look at him again and my internal feminine rage against the patriarchy and capitalism and kind of that the dominant toxic masculinity it also feels encapsulated in his shadow side and so i could also push him off a cliff so Emma: You know what, I get you with all of those and it's interesting, but also interesting when you were talking about him like creating the foundations and the stability. But I think, again, it's that feeling that I do that for myself so often that I contain myself, that I want to be the Empress throwing and wild flowering everywhere that I'm like, no, I don't want that. So don't even need the Emperor to do it, to be honest, I do it to myself. But at the same time, I'm like, I don't need someone else then on top holding me down, you know? But. Molly: Mmm. Emma: structure sometimes can be beneficial to balance out the two odds and that actually, yeah, I can see that side of it in the marry, you know, like someone to support you and hold you. But yeah, chuck him off the cliff when he's gone too far. Molly: Should we park him for a moment because he feels big? Emma: Yes, I think I've got... Yeah, he does. Molly: I could do all three to him happily. if we, sometimes on this podcast, we have to play strategically. We have to kind of, yeah, go back and forth between them because were the other two cards different, it might be a different story. So the emperor is kind of our holding card at the moment because I think that he could go anywhere. So now we've got the four of ones and the two of swords. And once we've made those decisions then the Emperor can kind of slip in as it were. Emma: Yeah. Molly: Freudian slip. There we go. What are you thinking? Emma: I was just looking at 401s and it was interesting because I've always seen it as quite a bright celebration card of a point in time, you know? But I was also like, that could seem like on the forefront that that's the card you'd want to marry based on the fact that it's got this joy, right? But is that a joy for a moment rather than joy for a lifetime, you know? Like you celebrate milestones because they come through at that point but that doesn't mean that's for every day. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm going off tangent. Molly: I mean. Emma: So like maybe that's not your Mary card, maybe that would be again the fuck card because it's that joy and celebration of that point in time rather than everything and yeah. I mean I know there's more to it than that you know but it's quite a fiery card it's got you know it is fire so like I always feel that kind of energy is fast and quick and moving so it's not stood in time if that makes sense. Molly: Mm, yeah, and I think like I agree with you there's something about the traditional four of wands like if you've got a Rider Waite Smith deck and you look at the keywords, marriage is on there. It is actually the typical marriage card within the deck. But then when you kind of break it down into a more psychological approach, you've got the wands which is our fire, which is the kind of intuition function, passion, energy creation. So they tend to be quite quick. The four itself is a kind of stabilizing energy. And this card doesn't actually depict it as well as the Rider Waite Smith, but in the Rider Waite Smith you've got the image of that kind of marriage of people and they're underneath this tree or kind of a natural structure and in the background you've got the firm stone structure and I like to often see that as the Four of Wands is celebrating success in in out being outside of what is expected, because the stone structure is not forefronted. The societally acceptable structures are in the background, and this is a handmade, nature-made almost structure that they're getting married under. And so sometimes I think of the Four of Wands as that, we're celebrating a self-made success that isn't dictated by what other people think. I do think there's elements of marriage in there, but I also agree that the fiery side of it would make me hesitate in whether it's like celebrating that moment there and then, but is it going to kind of fade away into the unfolding of the ones? Emma: Yeah. Molly: I feel like, and I don't know you're going to agree with me here, that the two of swords is the easy push off the cliff. Emma: Yeah, I mean, it's the one that I automatically want to, you know, like I just because I know when I pull that card, I'm like, And I feel like a lot of swords feels like that for me anyway, because it's quite, you know, it's all very much that mental space. And I find that's always the hard part, isn't it? But even when you look at her, like she's, it doesn't look like the most joyous situation. Don't get me wrong, like I like Rose, but it's not looking like, you know. easy any, it's that mid, I always see it as that kind of balance point isn't it, it's like decisions and the two is kind of a bit like that anyway and it's, don't, sometimes, I'm not good at decisions, let's put it that way, that's not what I want to be doing, I just want things to happen, I don't want to have to sit there and make decisions, like when you go into a cafe and you, as well, you know, we're both vegan and you're like, as much as I love when I have a cafe and I have all the choice in the world, I'll sit there and I'll go like, now I have too much choice, I'm like, I just actually want someone to tell me what to have. I'm Molly: Yeah, there is a joy in going to a vegan only place and being like, I have so much choice, but I'm so not accustomed to it. And then I get overwhelmed. And that's kind of like the kind of smaller side of the two of swords. I like that. Yeah, I don't like making. Do I like making decisions? I don't like I don't like being overwhelmed by a decision. That's for sure. Because I Emma: Yeah, I think probably the better way of saying Molly: Yeah, I naturally can be very heady as much as like I practice being in body, being in present moment, being in flow. That very much for me is a practice rather than what comes naturally. What comes naturally is for me to overthink about every possible outcome and how am I viewed in that outcome. And then when I'm in a two of swords place, that's really where the story and my tendencies like grip onto me is when I have to consider what an outcome might look like, how people might perceive me in that outcome, and then I just spiral and it becomes an impossible task. So in the imaginary world where I can get rid of an energy, that would be the energy that I would get rid of. Emma: Yeah, and it's like, you know, when you look at her she can't see what's happening and I feel like that to me says that, you know, that's when you're more likely to have to be inward and sometimes, you know, like working with all of that is an amazing part, you know, that's all I teach and I move through like working with the mental space, moving through it. But that energy of that card and the way that it's perceived makes it harder and it's like tricky and I feel you, like sometimes I just don't want to be in it. And Molly: Yeah. Emma: as much as maybe... As the practitioner I am and what I teach maybe I should be like we should all be into sword energy and I don't but I don't want to be. If I could help you all so that we got through this quicker then maybe that would be the better option. Molly: I think that the premise of the podcast very much is we understand and agree as people that deal with symbol and myth and embodiment and all of kind of these beautiful ways of meaning making. We all understand that the two of swords has a wonderfully beautiful gift to offer us. In the game, it can fuck off though. Like, you know what mean? We're allowed to say that. We're allowed to say that if I could remove an energy from my life, it would be that one. Emma: Yeah. Molly: So then we go back to that dichotomy of the difficulty between the emperor and the four of wands, both of which are quite structured, both of which are quite fiery. And yeah, which one do we have a wild night of passion with and which one do we marry? Emma: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Because as well, like you say, the fire energy, because you've got that eerie symbol there on the background of Mr. Emperor as well. that's adding into that element, but... Do know what? Like I'm literally torn because of I feel like they both could be either in some level and I know that's the Molly: Hmm. Emma: point it's meant to make it hard. I mean this it's when you go back to the roots of this game it's always one of those tricky things. It's usually three people you know and you're always like, I can't and like it's so hard and then like I don't even I don't even know these people but they're in front of me and this in on the deck. I mean it would be Molly: Mmm. Emma: funny if it was like a of a pick deck or something like that, that would be really hard for me to really visualise it. Molly: I I mean, yeah, you're right. Like the origins of the game that we would play as teenagers is that we would say to our friends, you want to play the game and we would pick three people that, you know, we knew would make a really difficult decision because we Emma: Yeah. Molly: thought it would be funny. So the the the element of the teenage game is coming out here. I. Do you know what? Despite the fact that I. really find the Emperor extremely difficult. I may marry him and I say that because I know my tendencies and my projection to be like, ew, no. But I also think that there is a, if I, you know, in this imaginary tarot game world, I'm going to imagine that the Emperor that I'm choosing to marry is the one that holds the Empress in all of her wildness. That he does have, you know, that he's not the shadow side of the Emperor. I'm going to... It's my game. I get to do what I want. He doesn't have the shadow side of the Emperor. He's just the upright side. And then I think the four of ones would actually be a little bit more fun in the bedroom. Emma: Yeah. Do you know, it's funny, similar thoughts I've been thinking. Same thing, think Thor is probably going to be the fuck and the Emperor is going to be the marry. But also as you're like, I don't know on the shadow side, you can tell where my brain is. All I do is spend my life reading fantasy novels. And I'm like, well, it depends if he's a shadow daddy or not. But I'm like, totally no educational insight whatsoever. Just I read a lot of romantic and I'm like, maybe that's my zed in Rorson. Maybe that's my Rowan White. Fulane. Molly: Who's that? Please tell me who these people are. Who's the shoulder daddy? Emma: Have you not read any books on Shadow Daddies yet? Molly: No. Emma: Your life needs to change. Fourth Wing basically is the books about dragons and Zayden Rorson's the Shadow Daddy in it and yeah, he's gonna be my Emperor energy and I'm gonna go with that. Molly: Okay, I need to clearly need to be educated. but I have not read Fourth Wing, so I don't know what a Shadow Daddy is. But I can Emma: you Molly: guess. I can make assumptions about the Emperor being a very good Dom, and I'm Emma: Amen. Molly: sure Booktok would love him. Emma: I mean, to be fair, if you broke down some of the characters in these books they probably wouldn't be as much to the Emperor energy. I'd say they'd be sitting in swords energy somewhere, you know, like that's probably where they'd land. Molly: yes, so am I hearing it right that you're gonna fuck the emperor and marry the four of wands? Emma: other way around. Molly: Okay. Emma: Yeah, as much as in my head, I feel like he would also be on the fuck pile. I do think he is probably the one more likely I'd want to marry out of 401. So I feel like just a passing fleeting good time. Molly: I love how you said the fuck pile. I've just got an image of like all of the tarot archetypes like piled up on each other. Emma: I imagine if you spread it all out you probably could have all those piles, couldn't you? Molly: a tarot orgy. That's a different podcast. Anyway, Emma: You Molly: I feel like very firm because I think we've gone the same way. Fuck the Four of Wands, marry the Emperor but Emma: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Molly: only his light side. It is our game. We're allowed to choose. No shadow side Emperor here, please. And again, it's our game. We can choose two of swords with your lovely teaching about going inward and not worrying about what other people think about you when you make decisions. If I could choose then I'd just remove you from the deck. Bye bye. off the cliff I have two last questions for you. This is a Emma: Yeah. There we go. Okay. Molly: question that I'm asking people on the the podcast if we took the whole 78 card deck who is the Sexiest and who is the biggest red flag? Emma: that's a big question. Molly: Bye-bye. Emma: Who is the sexiest? I don't know if this is off-piste or not but I always feel like High Priestess is like to me like that's the one I'd say although I do like quite like the devil vibes sometimes Molly: We've had the devil. We have had the devil. Emma: I think, yeah, there are the two on the sexiest pile for me straight off the bat thinking there's probably other ones but Molly: you Emma: devil and maybe high priestess if we're thinking about those two different energies because I can't choose because I've thrown two swords away so no decision making here Molly: But your soul is just one. No disinformation. Emma: and then what was the other question who is red flag? I mean there's probably a few Do you know what? I'm really struggling with that one and I don't know why. think it's because, you know, in the back of my head I'm like every card is going to have some option that's going to make them good for us. gee. If I'm gonna choose a card, probably... is it five of pentacles? Is that the one I always hate? Molly: The one with the lights is the girl sitting by the door. Emma: Yeah, yeah, I hate that card. There you go, that's my red flag. Molly: We did, we actually, have recorded an episode where the five of pentacles turns up and we're kind of talking about that feeling of lack and that heart, like a five of pentacles person is like a glass half empty type person. totally accept, totally, I mean, everyone's acceptable as a red flag because they all have their shadow sides, but you're going to say that the sexiest cards are both the high priestess and the devil. and then red flag is five pentacles. Emma: And you know what's funny about five of pentacles as well? Sorry to derail for a second. It's always the card I pull when I'm looking at my strengths. Literally, Molly: Mmm. Emma: like I've done a poll before that's like, what's your greatest strength? What are you here to do? It's like five of pentacles. And I'm like, and I get it when I break it down, I get it. But I'm like, it's not the card you want. I want something like the higher priestess or you know, the emperor or something, something or the star, you know, like something more hopeful and feeling, but it's like. five of pentacles and I'm like okay that's where I'm at. Molly: Hmm. Emma: But yeah that's probably my red flag even though that's the one Molly: Mm. Emma: I pull the most for myself maybe that makes me a red flag. Molly: I really enjoy this game because I think it allows us to be a little bit petty with the cards. You know, like, because if we're engaging with the symbolism and the archetypes of the cards, then of course they mirror what we need to see and they kind of bypass our tendencies and all of these beautiful and wonderful things. But this game allows us to be a little bit petty where we pull a card and we go, actually... I'm going to project onto you and I don't want you so you're a red flag Emma: Yeah. Molly: or you're going off the cliff. Thank you so much for joining me and playing this silly little game. I hope you enjoyed it. Emma: I did. Molly: And if you are listening, please do pop us a comment on Instagram or on Spotify or wherever you're listening to let us know whether you agree. Do you agree with the choices that we made? Would you have changed anything? Do you also agree that the devil and the high priestess are simultaneously the sexiest cards in the deck? Do let us know. But until next time, we will bid you a farewell. Bye bye. And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who would definitely have an argument with a tarot card. And if you've been listening and thinking, I need to play this game, then good news, I have made you something. Tarot After Dark is my completely free field guide to desire, projection and questionable relationships with archetypes. Inside, you'll find Fuck, marry, push off a cliff, tarot date, red flag, green flag, unfortunately hot, and a whole collection of ridiculous ways to play with the cards. alongside slightly more serious psychology of why these games can actually tell us something about ourselves. Because sometimes deciding that you'd shag the night of ones is just funny, and sometimes asking why tells you considerably more than you'd expect. You can download Tarot After Dark for free using the link in the show notes or the link in my bio. And if that gets you curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore Tarot through depth psychology, embodiment and transpersonal practices. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror Tarot, where I share readings, workshops and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And finally, if you're listening and thinking I would love to come on the podcast and make some terrible decisions of my own, I would genuinely love to hear from you. Send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep laughing, keep getting curious, and remember, we take the tarot seriously, we just don't take ourselves too seriously.