Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 255 - Does the Bible Support Slavery

Transcript

Ep. 255 - Does the Bible Support Slavery · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Speaker 1: All right, friends.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: So we're talking today about slavery, and the question is does the Bible support slavery?
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Mark, would you say this is one of the things that atheists will pull when you're talking to them about the faith?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but they don't want to hear the answer.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Right, I was at Lehigh University and I had lectured on the subject of theodicy, the problem of evil, for an hour at Secular University and then I did Q&A for an hour and a gentleman came up to the microphone and he wanted to bring up this point but he didn't want to hear the answer.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: So oftentimes and that's very common, right People will bring up an objection, thinking that there is no answer.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: It's a gotcha moment, and then they go their way.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: So he wasn't ready that I was actually looking down, looking at my answer and all my notes.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: For what if somebody actually brings this up?
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: And he had left and it was like where'd he go?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Took off, see ya, see ya.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Have I ever told you guys about my friend Al A couple of times?
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Al who Albino.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: How about Anna Anna who Anaconda?
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Brock brock who broccoli chip?
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Monk, ella vader, my favorite, chris p bacon chocolate covered chocolate covered crispy.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Oh no, mark, there's a guy named chris bacon is there I be?
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, got to have a middle name P.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: Chris P, I went to high school with a guy named Jay Walker.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: No, you didn't yeah.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: That's a really good one.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking about that again.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: You guys know one of my biggest pet peeves and I always say this Nobody asks me right names I mean, think about it Of anything you can give your child Like.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, people do this kind of thing on a whim.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Gerplompo, that sounds good.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: Do you recognize it's subjective right?
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: No, it's not.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: It's definitely not 100% objective.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: When I was in college, the librarian's name was Willie Wong, so I'd go and ask him a question.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I'd go.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: It'd be Willie Wong if you'd tell me something.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: That's not right.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: You did not.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, willy Wong, all the time.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, poor guy.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, look, people today are changing everything.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Right, they're changing their gender, they're changing their race, but for some reason nobody's willing to change their name, when their parents did a wicked evil thing and gave them a very tormenting name Like imagine having the last name Comfort or Judas, yeah, judas, I just got a pet peeve.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: Is there anyone else?
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: Would like someone to invent a paper dispenser in restrooms that spits out six feet of paper towel instead of four?
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: inches.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Where do you get four inches?
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Mine's more like two.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I find two inches.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: I mean seriously.
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: You go think your hands are wet, outcomes Just not quite enough To dry your hands.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and not just that, but then to get another one.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: It's like a four or five second delay, yeah.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: So you're standing there Waving your hands, yeah, but just spit out six feet.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: That would be ridiculous.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: You know what I was doing here.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I was Before, it was before I'd leave the bathroom, I would do the motion detector so somebody would have extra, and then we all got a message saying you can't do that.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Do not do that, mark.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking I'm being courteous for the next person.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: That is one of the most unsanitary things in the world.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to say who it is, but I know someone who owns a restaurant and I lobbied, I lobbied that they would change that and finally they did, because it would just stay out.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: No, because there's some machines where, yeah, they come out, and you pull one and another one would come out.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, my favorite, the most unsanitary, the most unsanitary.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Do you know how many people are washing their hands by that?
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Their water from the?
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: filter is splashing on the paper towel.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I was the last person.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: No, mark, no, no, mark, no, mark, I'm saying at these restaurants and places like that.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: You wash your hands, right yeah.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: And then the thing comes out Someone else comes and washes their hands.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Maybe they don't pull the towel, maybe they don't, whatever, people come in and out All right.
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: So you're saying somebody here at work is going to wash their hands.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: They're going to see that paper towel.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: No no.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: Here at work.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: It's an thing I don't like the way I see.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: That's what it is.
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: I never like touching public restroom door handles with my hands always use my chin.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: I can't always, okay.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: But seriously though, as I was singing about that, um, why in the world I forgot what I?
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: was gonna say listen, I always leave credit on a microwave two seconds this is for the next person.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Now I remember why in the world Now this is what I'm Starting to see more and more Is these bathrooms no more paper towels?
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: It's just the stupid Air dryer thing.
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: I can't stand it Seriously.
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: You're there for like Five minutes Trying to get your hand, yeah and I can't reach it With my hand.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: Ray uses it as a blow dryer what?
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: about these doors that have these little things at the bottom of the door and you use your foot to open it.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I like that Because after I open the door, I feel like I need to wash my hands again.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: This is exactly right, because I notice it after I'm grabbing the door, I felt like an idiot.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: I tried to use one the other day and it didn't work for me.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: You're using your chicken leg.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: So what is it you're talking about?
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Because I missed it.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: No, some doors now in public places.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: They have a thing you put your foot on to open the door instead of using your hand.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: Oh, that's great.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but if it's a heavy door, you're sitting there.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Why don't you just kick it?
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: Have you ever been to one of the restaurants where the restrooms are like the toilets are their own toilets, but then everyone, men and women, get out and they wash their hands in the same spot.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: I don't like that.
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: No, no, what are you talking about?
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, I saw that at an airport recently.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: Big Bear has that.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: There's a restaurant in Big.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Bear Something doesn't feel right about that.
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: It's weird to be, Because then women are putting their makeup back on and you're like I'm just trying to wash my hands.
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: It's just really awkward.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Anyway, back to names.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, these are real.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: These are actually real names for girls Monet, Eris and Amen.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Imagine calling your kid Amen Forever.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Well, forever, yeah.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: Shut up Amen.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, these are real boy names Miso, soup.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: These are like current real names, not made up.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Miso, emperor, kale, emperor, yeah, miso.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Emperor Kale Emperor.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Zui Durfla Wait.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Somebody's going to be watching this.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: I was going to say Durfla could be listening right now and feeling embarrassed.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Harm Almond Dweezil.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: We have a friend named Almond.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: No, we don't.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just pronounced slightly different.
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: It's Frank Frank Nimrod.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Facebook COVID no you don't.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just pronounced slightly different.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: It's Frank Edmund, frank Nimrod, Facebook COVID and Nutella Facebook.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: No chance, nutella.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Nobody's called COVID.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I'm serious, this was an official list of names.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: All right, friends, time for a cool, classy comment.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Now, wait Real quick.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Now do you think Emil is a great name?
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Why do you think I go by Easy?
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: There are reasons for these things, Mark.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: All right, Fran, it's time for a cool, classy comment.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: This is from Daily Grace.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Speaking of names, Daily Grace.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: That's her name.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: It's her real name and Daily is from the Moore family.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Remember the people that sent us all those really cool things.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: Oh, this is them, this is them.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so Daily says this yes, my name Alan.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: Yes, she said that yeah.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, my name Alan.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: This podcast I really like.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: She's a fan, yes, fan, yes, big fan.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, in all seriousness, this is pretty much the only podcast I listen to, except for Ethan Spence's.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: He should keep doing those, and I really do really like Mark.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: This is a plug for Ethan.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Listen, ethan is so Ethan's been putting together some videos and he's putting together a vault of videos.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Man he is.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: This is your boy.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got a voice.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: That is amazing for narration.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Well, what happened with his podcast man?
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he's just very excited about this YouTube channel that he's trying to put together.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: He hasn't launched it yet.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: By the way, for those that don't know, we are forever indebted to Ethan Because our little jingle for the podcast.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: However it goes, we stole that from Ethan.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: We stole it from his podcast.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: He started a podcast.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Our good friend Johnny Na actually made that for him and then we stole it and then he got a really like Listen.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: And I'll say look up Johnny Na's Spotify.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: That boy can sing.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so spiritual he's a godly man.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: We just hung out, had dinner together and great, great young man.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, anyway, back to Daily Grace.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: That's a good name.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Daily Grace's comment.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: My name is Daily Grace and I'm a 21-year-old young lady who lives on a farm with my family in Virginia, usa.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Y'all have no idea how much of a blessing your Christ-centered, lively, down-to-earth, inclusive and engaging podcast has been to me and my siblings over the past couple of years.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: You also have no idea how many scenarios you've come alongside me with and yes, I do listen to the podcast via earbuds Cleaning Our Families, airbnb Y'all are welcome anytime.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Ooh.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Hey yo Guys ready for an Airbnb.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Notice there's no address attached.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Try to find it, and a host of other activities.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I truly consider y'all to be among my best friends and true brothers in Christ.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, easy, oscar, rain, mark, for the time, love, prayer and devotion you pour into the podcast and the ministry as a whole.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Easy, I was at the NOAA conference in Kentucky when you spoke there and have always wished I had met you in person someday, lord willing, it's a dream of mine to visit your ministry someday somehow.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Definitely on my bucket list, as you Californians say, and I certainly have some podcast suggestions to make.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Hugs, prayers and love in Christ, daily grace.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Ps.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I so love and enjoy the inside jokes too, from Rotten Motor Oil to Onions to Augustine, augustine To Rat vs Ray, to Alan in Paris and so many more.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much it tickles me that someone appreciates the whole Alan thing.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: Well, we could explain what it was.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: That was season four.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, women in Paris.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, a guy dressed as a statue, all white.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Hi, my name's Alan.
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: He didn't speak English.
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: This TV show had real life.
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: We need to make a Living Waters podcast trivia game.
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's a good idea.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but the best thing about Alan remember A when you told him have you kept God's commandments or have you broken them?
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: What do you mean, alan?
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Oh man, this is too much fun today.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Alright, friends, this podcast is brought to you by one of our radically revolutionary resources.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: So Many Lions, so Few Daniels, living Without Compromise in a World in Need of Truth.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: That's a book by Raymond Comfort Ray.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Can we call you Raymond?
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: No, por que no.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: No, my aunts call me Raymond, my mother call me Raymond.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: Nobody else calls me Raymond.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Why do you not like it?
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: I don't like it.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: It's a nice name.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I've got scars.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: Some teenage girl when I was in high school tattooed my name with a needle on her arm and she wrote Raymond.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: I said my name's Ray.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: It could have saved a lot of pain, like a real tattoo.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, just with a needle.
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: Where is she?
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: That's like 200 years ago Boy, you dodged a bullet on that one.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, ray, good job writing that book.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Oh, can I have a commendation from you?
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very good book.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Can I call you the Lebanese version of Raymond?
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: No, raymond, it is.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Isn't that smooth.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: That's all right, remon.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Remon Sounds like custard.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: You could just say Ray.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Ray, All right friends, Don't forget the Living Waters mug, the Adventist Study Bible, all that Livingwatercom.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, All right friends.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Today we are talking about a topic that is often ignored amongst Christians.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: But we do not ignore, we take the bull by the horns.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: Today we're talking about the what?
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Chicago?
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: The bulls by the horns.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: I took the bull by the horns and got mocked.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: You did.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Ray, you were told not to grab the horns no, I wasn't.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Ray, how does everybody know that you weren't supposed to grab it, but you?
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Look, it was natural.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: When a bull moves, you got nothing to grab and there's a couple of handlebars in front of you, you grab them.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: And that's what I did, instinctively, because I used to ride a bike that's in one of the seasons.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: We got to pull that clip, though, and make like a video around it.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: That would be a good reel.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine ray's a matador?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: go stand here.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: We're all red with his new zealand accent.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: All right, all all right.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: All right, all right, friends.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: So we're talking today about slavery and the question is does the Bible support slavery?
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Mark, would you say this is one of the things that atheists will pull when you're talking to them about the faith.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they don't want to hear the answer, right?
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I was at Lehigh University and I had lectured on the subject of theodicy, the problem of evil, but they don't want to hear the answer, right?
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I was at Lehigh University and I had lectured on the subject of theodicy, the problem of evil, for an hour at Secular University, and then I did Q&A for an hour and a gentleman came up to the microphone and he wanted to bring up this point but he didn't want to hear the answer.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: So oftentimes and that's very common, right People will bring up an objection, thinking that there is no answer.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: It's a gotcha moment, and then they go their way.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: So he wasn't ready that I was actually looking down, looking at my answer and all my notes, for what if somebody actually brings this up?
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: And he had left and it was like where'd he go?
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Took off, see ya.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Oscar, you were an atheist.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Was this one that you would throw at Christians when you were trying to devour them like a lion?
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: Actually yes, and I think it's a really important question to ask.
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: I think sometimes you get the atheists that are trying to do the gotcha moment.
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: Sam Harris is famous for saying why didn't Moses include thou shalt not have slaves in the 10 commandments, if it's that important, is he?
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: considered the elite of the intellectuals, because I think he's really dumb.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: I was listening to him the other day.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: I thought you were going to say something else.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: I say that in all love, because he just says anyone with the intellect of Solomon or a little dumber could have written the Bible, and I thought what a statement of ignorance.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: Hasn't he read the Sermon on the Mount?
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Hasn't he read the Sermon on the Mount?
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Hasn't he studied the life of Jesus through the Gospels and the wisdom of Solomon?
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Hasn't he read Psalms and the comfort that's in Psalms?
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: I mean just, there's nothing like this.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: That's really good.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Hasn't he read your book Scientific Facts in the Bible or the Evidence Study Bible On livingwaterscom?
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Shameless plugs.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: You know, Oscar, when people are thinking about slavery because the Bible does talk about slavery it's in there, of course.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe not dumb, that was probably a strong word, yeah.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Ray repent Go ahead.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: And repent on there.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: What would you like to have said?
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Ray, I'd like to change it to he's not as intelligent as we all think he is, he's ignorant.
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: That's so nice of you, ray.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: So, oscar, but oftentimes when people are thinking of slavery, their minds automatically go to what we're most familiar with, and that's, of course, the Atlantic slave trade that spanned from the 16th and 19th century.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: So that's what they're, you know.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: They're thinking 12 years a slave.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: They're thinking Amistad.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: They're thinking which was reprehensible beyond description and the Bible.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: That's not what the Bible is talking about.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: So important.
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: So one I understand why some people think that the Bible might endorse slavery.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: You've got Ephesians, colossians, 1 Peter and a few other places where it talks about what it looks like to have a slave.
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: Here's the problem.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: When you ask the question, does the Bible condone slavery?
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: You bring up a good point.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: The first question we have to ask is what do you mean by slavery?
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: And so, yeah, our minds, as you pointed out, immediately go to race-based Chattel slavery, which is focused primarily on a person's race.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: It's demeaning, it's diminishing it's sin and ultimately, you own the soul, if the slavers even believe they had a soul.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: You own the person as property, but you have to consider what does the scriptures mean when it translates the word into slavery?
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: Sometimes they'll translate it into bond servant, and it's a very different.
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: This is a great starting point, because it's very different than what we mean by slavery In the Old Testament and even in parts of the New.
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: Here's what would happen with bond servants is that you would be a working man and you would get yourself in the debt let's call it bankruptcy and you were living in the harsh desert right when there was no, there was no public service to keep you alive, which meant you and your family were either going to starve to death in the desert or you can voluntarily, for a time, choose to put yourself into a bond servitude to somebody to pay off your debt.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: And so you had the option you can either starve to death or you can become a bond servant, and this is what's important.
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: Those people had rights, and so here's a few rights.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: Murray J Harris, in his book Slave of Christ, points out some of the rights that they had.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: Listen to how different this sounds than Chantel-based slave trade.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: You could bring lawsuits against your master for mistreatment.
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: Your master owned your time and labor, but not your body.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: If they damaged even one tooth of your body, you can walk away freely.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: Immediately.
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: Your master sorry.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: Israelite towns were commanded to free runaway slaves and then every seven years slaves were allowed to go free.
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: But more importantly, I'm gonna read this quote from Murray J Harris's book because it's also important to recognize that there is a cultural distinction as well.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: So he says it like this In the first century, slaves were not distinguishable from free persons by race, speech or clothings.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: They were sometimes more highly educated than their owners and held responsible professional positions.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: Some persons sold themselves into slavery for economic and social advantage.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: They could reasonably hope to be emancipated, be freed after 10 to 20 years of service or by their 30s at the latest.
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: They were not denied the right for public assembly and were not socially segregated.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: They could accumulate savings and buy their freedom, and their natural inferiority was not assumed.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: Now, in no way does Murray J Harris endorse bondservanthood.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: It had problems of its own, but the point that you're making, ez, is where we need to start.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: Is we need to start by defining terms.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: When the Bible says slavery, does it mean the same thing we mean as slavery?
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: And the answer to that question is emphatically no.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: That's good, oscar.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Great summation.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: You know, ray, I think a good place to go is to the Word, to see what it says in this regard?
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it just came to me.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: All things considered, I thought hey, let's maybe go to the Bible, maybe go to the Bible.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, there's a new voice, it's just on the spot.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I actually like that voice.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe Bible.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: No, I repent.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I love the different one.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: So as it relates to what people are thinking in their minds about the whole chattel, slavery, exodus 21, 16, he who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And then this is reinforced by the New Testament, 1 Timothy 1, 9-10, where it gives that list of who the law is made for one of your favorites right.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: And it says in there and for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: That's the new King James.
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: King James translates that word as men stealers Sounds better than kid, or sounds like children having a snooze in the afternoon, right Kidnapper.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Kidnapper.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: And then, right, mark, the SV translates that as enslavers.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: So, ray, that makes it clear that when the Bible's talking about the whole bondservant realm, or as some would like to call it, slavery, it's not the American slave trade, where 10 million people were transported from the African regions over to the Americas, but it's talking about a different, which was also socio-economical, as Oscar pointed out.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, atheists also go to slaves that were taken in warfare, and that was different.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: There was a cruelty involved in that sense, in the same way that the British took slaves of the Germans during the Second World War.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: After the Second World War, they inscripted literally hundreds of thousands to come to England and build what they destroyed.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: They were slaves.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Same with the United States.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: We took slaves during the war.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Instead of killing Germans that were taken, that surrendered, they put them to work on the cotton fields.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: That's merciful.
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: Instead of killing Germans would just shoot a whole lot of people they took, because who wants to feed them and clothe them?
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Take care of them?
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: Just shoot them all, and so it's merciful to do that.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: Rather than kill your enemies, take them as slaves, and that's what happened in the Old Testament.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: It's history.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: We don't have to justify it.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, for a moment here, I think it's appropriate for us to kind of camp out on this.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: You know, there's been a lot of wokeness, I think that's obviously.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: I woke up this morning, yeah, obviously, go back to bed, oscar, please.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: But that has a lot of wokeness in the church.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: That has taken the church in a wrong direction, but I think sometimes we're so.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: It's called the awokening, yeah, the awokening, the great awokening, but sometimes we're so reactionary that we'll go to the other extreme and pretend like this wasn't an atrocity in history.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: And Mark, I think that there has been sometimes in the consciousness of people in generations past this idea that no, it is biblical.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: And this is a good example of how scripture is often twisted.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: And a lot of times people go back to the whole thing with Cain right, god put a mark upon him, and they take that and say, oh well, that was him, that was the black race, and so that's what happened there, that's Mormons.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: It's not to say that Mormons, yeah, mormons.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know even how they get around that from some of the things they've written in the past, but you know, but that's obviously not the case.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Let me read something I'd love for you to comment on this, but this is by Bodie Hodge and Paul.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Taylor from Answers in Genesis.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: They said some white Christians have assumed that the so-called curse of Ham Genesis 9.25, was to cause Ham's descendants to be black and be cursed.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: While it is likely that African peoples are descended from Ham, cush, put and Mizraim, it is not likely that they are descended from Canaan.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: The curse was actually declared on Canaan, not Ham.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: However, there's no evidence from Genesis that the curse has anything to do with skin color.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Others have suggested that the mark of Cain in Genesis 4 was that he was turned dark-skinned.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Again, there's no evidence of this in Scripture and in any case, cain's descendants were possibly wiped out in the flood.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: So, mark.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I just.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: It's appropriate to have Mark.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the mark of Cain.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: But, mark, I think I'd love you to speak to this.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: This is a good example of how people who don't dive into the Word deeply and just take what they've heard about what the Word says, or just read some things at face value, how they can go astray.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oftentimes when somebody raises an objection, I'll ask them have you ever studied what my answer is, what the Christian answer is?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Are you interested in knowing what I would have to say about that?
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I'm curious.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, do you want to have a dialogue or do you want to have a monologue?
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Are you looking for somebody?
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: Just kind of catch the vomit, that's being spewed out of your mouth.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I fancy bringing that up.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Thanks for getting that off your chest.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: There's a saying right that people claim to hunger and thirst for truth, but they sell them like the taste of it when it is served up.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Are you interested in listening to what I would have to say about that?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Because there are answers and oftentimes when I'll talk to a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness and bring a rebuttal to something that they say and I'll give a solid answer to where they have no response back, I said listen, you would do yourself a disservice now to bring that up to somebody else when I just gave you an answer for that.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Stop trying to have an aha moment for them and to be superior over them when I just gave you the answer for that.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: You need to now discard that argumentation.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: That's just how you have a normal dialogue.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, so oftentimes people will regurgitate something that they've read off of richarddawkinsnet or Sam Harris's website or something that they've read and said Skeptic Magazine, but they haven't thought through it.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ray, that's actually a good point.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: You did a video with Bill Maher sitting down with Mike Tyson and I love the way you put it.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Mike Tyson became like a little kitten next to Bill Maher.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: It's so silly.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: But you made some good points.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Bill Maher was spewing all kinds of falsehood on that thing.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Mike Tyson should have bit his ear off.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of kinds of falsehood on that thing.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Mike Tyson should have bit his ear off A little flashback.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Hey, get over here, you fiffy yeah it was pathetic.
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: He just backed down into the corner and went all sweaty and shaky.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: It was Bill Maher.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: But Bill Maher was spewing a bunch of falsehoods.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: I think that's where the spew stuff comes in.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: This is kick, vomit and spew.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: The other day it was passed out of the eye, yeah, anyway, yeah, Mike Tyson should have stood up to Bill Maher because he was speaking things that just weren't true.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the thing is Mike Tyson didn't know they weren't true.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: Because Mike Tyson says I've never read the Bible.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: Wait, wait wait.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: What did he say?
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Is he?
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: Indian Mike Tyson said I've never read the Bible.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I've never read the Bible.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: That's the one accent I would have never thought you'd use, your Indian accent.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: I've never read the Bible.
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: I will box you in the ring now I love what you said earlier, and it reminds me of another quote, which is that who are you talking about?
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: You, mark.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: And it reminds me of another quote, which is truth is like poetry and nobody likes poetry.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: But, and it reminds me of another quote, which is truth is like poetry, and nobody likes poetry.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: But you know, let me touch real quick, because we talked about the mark, and then let me get back to slavery, specifically as it pertains to the Old Testament.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: First, yeah, I mean, there's different ways of interpreting the mark of the beast, but one way for certain Mark of Cain.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Mark of Cain, excuse me, Actually that's where I'm going, though, Mark of Cain.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Mark of Cain, excuse me.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Actually, that's where I'm going, though.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because what you have is again what you see in Genesis is, you see these parallels Like the whole story in Genesis after the fall is that there's these two families, there's the descendants of the serpent, and then there's the descendants of Eve and the descendants of Eve.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: The promise is that a promised seed is gonna come through that descendancy and and the descendants of Eve.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: The promise is that a promised seed is going to come through that descendancy and crush the head of the serpent.
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: And so right out of that proto-evangelion that moment in Genesis 3, when we get the first gospel proto-evangelion it's the first time the Bible talks about the gospel.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: In the middle of the curse, he says someone will come to crush the head of the serpent Proto-Evangelion.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: After that, you get Genesis 4, the descendants of Cain, and the mark that they have is violence.
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: Cain kills his brother Abel, and then, at the end of chapter three, you see his descendants.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: And what does Lamech say to his wives?
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: He brags Adah and Zalah, hear my voice, wives of Lamech, pay attention to my words, for I killed a man for wounding me, a young man for striking me.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: If Cain is to be avenged seven times over then for Lamech it will be 70 times seven.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: The mark of Cain is violence and power, and then, meanwhile, what we have on the other side is is those who are in Christ are marked by the blood of Christ.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: And what does Christ say?
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: To forgive 70 times seven.
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: So what you see, these markers, is the disposition, the way in which we go about our lives.
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: You've got Cain's way of violence and power and you've got the way of Christ through forgiveness and grace, through the blood of Jesus Christ, amen.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: That's good, oscar, and I think again we're going to get back into the slavery issue.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: But this is obviously related and it's the race thing.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Racism is so disgusting to me, so repulsive to the God who created every man, and the ignorance in that we all have the same parents.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: We all go back to Adam and Eve and then it starts again, of course.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: We all go back to Noah and his three sons.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: We're all related.
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: And Taylor and Hodge went on to say they said, very light skin and very dark skin are actually the extremes of skin color caused by the minimum and maximum of melanin production and are more likely, therefore, to be the genetically selected results of populations moving away from each other after the Tower of Babel incident recorded in Genesis 11.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: And I love what Ken Ham always says there's no such thing as black and white.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: We're all different shades of brown and and we're all related.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: But, mark, racism is so disgusting, isn't it?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: And ignorant, yeah and it's interesting during the time, just after the time of COVID with George Floyd, that the only person who can actually be racist would be somebody who is white colored in skin.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: And then you say, and there's all sorts of different things.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Right, when you say inflation, it's because's all sorts of different things.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Right, when you say inflation, it's because of racism of the white man.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Right, car pricing going up, it's because of the white man.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: It's weird.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: You know the way this comes out.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I read an article recently by Virgil Walker, a really great article I recommended to you.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: If you go to g3menorg, you know which is the website that we, the ministry that we really appreciate from our buddies Well, virgil Walker.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: He wrote an article called Paid in Full the Shocking Truth Behind Reparations, and I read it and I thought to myself, wow, that is so well written.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I could write something like that, but it'd take me three days to write it.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: And Virgil is a black man as well.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: No such thing Darker shade of brown.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: What am I allowed to say?
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Be careful, Spence.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: That's funny.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: But it was just really great.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And he goes through the whole history of reparations and slavery and how everything dealing with this is just wrong.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: We do need to be careful.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: There's a proper way to talk and there's an improper way to talk.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: If I was telling you a story and say, hey, I was at Dunkin' Donuts and the white guy in front of me ordered a maple bar, why did I say that?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't need to say the white guy in front of me or the black guy in front of me ordered a maple bar.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with the story at hand.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: So we need to think through the logistical side of this.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Does it have anything dealing with my story at hand?
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: The brown guy in front of me, the Lebanese man across the?
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: table from me.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was wondering why you put the two brown guys on the left, the two whiter guys on the right.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: I just found out today that one of the VPs at the publisher that's publishing my book has a Lebanese grandfather.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, fight like a man.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: A bold, biblical battle plan for personal purity.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: The face Coming soon.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: You like the face, Oscar?
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: You can't do the voice without the face.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Come on, Okay.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: What would you do if you got stuck like that?
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: The wind changed the wind changed.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Oscar, have you ever seen the book the Wind Changed?
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: No, oh, it's up upstairs.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, you got to show it to Oscar.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: It's so good, it's really good, all right.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: So let's get back to the slavery issue.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: So this is from Exodus 21.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years, but in the seventh year he shall go free without paying anything.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: If he comes alone, he is to go free alone.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: But if he has a wife when he comes he is to go with him.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children should belong to her master and only the man shall go free.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: But if the servant declares I love my master, my wife and children do not want to go free, then his master must take him before the judges.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: He shall take him to the door of the post and pierce his ear with an awl.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Then he will be his servant for life.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: So I mean, people overlook the aspects that we see here.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: This is again like you talked about.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: There was a socioeconomical component to that.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: This was a person that was supposed to be set free, right.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: And then there was the voluntary decision to say look, you're so, and this speaks to the culture there.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Right In terms of the other guidelines within the law of how you treat your servant.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Right that there was a culture where they were often treated so well.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: They would want to remain because they were like a part of the family, you know.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: And so, ray, that's so important to remember, isn't it?
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, and I want to bring up.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: The book is called when the when Changed.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Squirrel oh Ray, but show Oscar that picture by Ruth.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Park.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Really, it's got no redeeming features at all.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: It's got no parabolic lesson to it.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: It's just a crazy, it's just a dumb book.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: All right, so let me again Hodge and Taylor.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: They said this is the first type of bankruptcy law I've encountered With this.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: A government doesn't step in, but a person who has lost themselves to debt can sell the only thing they have left their ability to perform labor.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: This is a loan.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: In six years, a loan is paid off and they are set free.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Bond servants who did this made a wage, had their debt covered, had a home to stay in and on the job, training, and did it for only six years.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: This almost sounds better than college, which doesn't cover debt and you pay for it.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: This is not a forced agreement either.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: The bond servant entered into service on their own accord.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: In the same respect, a foreigner can also sell themselves into servitude.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Although the rules are slightly different, it would still be by their own accord.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: I think it's wonderful EZ, because nowadays in our country you can still get into debt as prison easy.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: Because nowadays in our country you can still get into debtors prison.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I studied it, you can be thrown in jail for getting into debt in the us.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't pay your taxes.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Yep, oh the taxes, but really like a personal.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, if you get in trouble, that there's laws that can put you in jail.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: Wow, I didn't know that yeah, wow, there you go um, yeah, good, no, go ahead, go ahead, I want to get back.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: No, no, go ahead I want to get back to sam harris's comment, because I've heard him say it multiple times.
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: I've heard him say it multiple times and I've confessed on this podcast that I used to be a Sam Harris fan.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: I've told you, guys, I took a girl out on a date to go watch Sam Harris lecture at UCLA at one point.
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: Which is like that, poor woman.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: You mean Sam Harris, the non-dumb guy, something like that, just to make sure.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: So his comment.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: You know, if slavery seems like a big deal, why wouldn't Moses put it in the Ten Commandments?
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: If I was sitting across the table from Sam Harris not that I ever would be I would remind him of Harriet Tubman.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Harriet Tubman was born into slavery.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: She escaped in 1849.
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: I think she went to Philadelphia at the time and then, after hearing about her nephews and cousins and the torturous treatment that they were experiencing it's a harrowing story she goes back and she rescues them, and then she doesn't stop there.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: By the time she died, at age 91, she had rescued hundreds of slaves.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: And do you know what her nickname was amongst the slave community?
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: Moses?
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Oh really.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: Why did they call her Moses?
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: Here's why Because before Moses wrote the Ten Commandments, he was the great emancipator.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: Moses is the one who freed the slaves.
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: So we have to remember that the entire Bible, especially the Old Testament, is written by former slaves.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: As one person said, the Exodus was the defining moment in Israel's history, when God heard their cries and took down a superpower to get them out of slavery.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: The experience of being rescued from slavery would shape Israel's national identity and laws in ways that are impossible to overstate.
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: You mentioned Exodus 21, which happens right after the Ten Commandments, where he says whoever steals a man and sells him shall be put to death.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: And then you go on and you just see the way it unfolds throughout redemptive history unfolds throughout redemptive history.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: The first sign that you might think like oh wow, here's God somehow advocating slavery.
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: Abraham sleeps with a slave girl, hagar, and this is one of God's like main go-to guys.
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: But that act was an act of disbelief and what does God do in the middle of that?
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: Hagar's the first person to give God a name and she is the one he says.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: He is the God who sees me, and God gives her promises.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: Similar to Abraham, this is a woman's slave God is reaching down to.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: And then you've got Joseph in Egypt being sold into slavery.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: It doesn't celebrate that.
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: It says that what man meant for evil, I will work out for your good.
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: And then you think about the Philemon, which is a letter written to a slave owner from Paul.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: You might think, oh well, here's the smoking gun.
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: Here's where the Bible endorses slavery.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: But hold on a second.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: Paul sends a runaway slave back to his master, but he tells him treat him as affectionately and relationally that you would a brother or a father.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Treat him like you treat me, an apostle, someone you respect.
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: Paul's basically laying the foundation for employee-employer relationship.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: In this.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: He is telling him, when he comes back, treat him with dignity and respect, moving that line from bond servant to employee-employer type relationship.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: And so what we see ultimately when we take a deep dive into God's word is we see God slowly moving us away from slave trade into a culture that we live in right now, where we take for granted the reality that we know that slavery is wrong.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: That comes from.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: God's word, yeah, amen.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: Important to remember that, ray.
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: Also, the law is mentioned in the Ten Commandments.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: I mean slavery is mentioned in the Ten Commandments because Jesus said the essence of the law is to love God with heart, mind, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: And then 1 Timothy 1, verses 8 through 10, says we know that the law is good if it is used lawfully, knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless, the disobedient, the ungodly, and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves of mankind, for men-stealers, for liars, for perjured persons and if there be any thing, any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: So that brings in rape and all the other things they say are not in the Ten Commandments.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: That's so good, you know.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Another point too.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's important to make as far as racism goes, because people will accuse the Bible of being a racist book, even by virtue of the fact that the Jews were called God's chosen people.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: But Mark all throughout the Old Testament, god reiterates time and again about how the Jews were to treat the stranger.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: In fact they were told to love the stranger and to remember that you were once foreigners in Egypt.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Old Testament, that's Old Testament.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know we forget the fact and we gloss over the idea.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I mean the historicity side of it Oscar is touching upon here.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: But oftentimes when somebody was in the midst of slavery because of financial ills or whatever it may be, and it was their time to go, they would often stay.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: They would often just hang out and say, hey, you know what?
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I have it better here under my master's leadership in allowing him to lead than it would be if I were to kind of go my way.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: We kind of forget about that.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Right, there's a couple of different words used for slave that we see inside of the Bible, especially the New Testament.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: We have doulos or doulos which.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: EZ has often called me over the years.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: That's your nickname, right for me, doulos you know a servant, you know one who would kind of follow.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: But there's also the word huperates, which is a great word.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Have you ever seen the movie Ben-Hur?
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: No, Ray hates.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Ben-Hur.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: I saw it the other day.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: No one of him.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: There's an interesting scene where the slaves are down inside the gallows and they're rowing.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Battlespeed.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And then you had a guy up at the front who would be kind of beating the drum, ringo Starr.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Ringo Starr would be up at the front and he would be beating the drum and at his beat that would tell you how fast that they would row.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: But that word, as an under rower, is called huperates, one who's not seen and one who is serving.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Well, in fact they were there.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: They exist to row and to serve.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: We all, to some degree, are slaves.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: You're either a slave to sin, you're a slave to drugs, you're a slave to porn, you're a slave to pride, you're a slave to fill in the blank, anything other than Christ, or you're a slave to Christ.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: Amen.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: We are willful slaves to Christ because our master knows that which is best.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: To serve anyone inside the world is a mark of disgrace to some degree, but as a Christian, to serve Christ, there's not a higher calling than to walk in the steps that he has prepared beforehand, to serve him willfully and joyfully, knowing that he is at work in us both to will and to do for his good pleasure.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And when we get to heaven, given us a crown, we give it right back to him, because all glory and all honor and all fame belongs to the King of kings and the Lord of lords, who it is our great desire and delight to serve as his slave.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Well, the whole thing about slavery, egypt being a type of the world.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: Satan's a slave, the ultimate slave driver.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: If God peradventure will give them repentance, the acknowledging of the truth, they might recover themselves out of the snare of the devil who has taken them captive to do his will.
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: And Jesus said he that serves sin is a slave of sin.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: And it's so true.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: People think I can drink as much alcohol as I want and I become a slave to it.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: I can take any drug I want.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: I want the pleasure.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: Anger you become a slave to it.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: Pornography, as Mark said, you become a slave to it.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: All these things we think offer freedom offer bondage.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: It's the subtlety that Satan has.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and whatever, as Scripture tells us, whatever you become obedient to, you become the slave of that very thing.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: If it's sin, you become a slave of sin.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: yeah, I have a question for Sam Harris, who undoubtedly this audio probably sent to him.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I'll text him right now.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Hey, Sammy boy, If we are nothing but evolved pond scum, what is wrong with slavery?
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Exactly?
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: I was gonna bring that up too, Mark.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I can tell you, according to the Bible, why slavery is wrong.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: But why, according to your worldview, if we're just, happen-chance, goo right from goo to you by way of the zoo molecules in motion, what's wrong with slavery?
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: You can tell me why you don't like it, but you can't tell me objectively why it's wrong.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: And survival of the fittest or the fattest.
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: I can tell you his answer yeah, because I've read, I think, all of his books Great, maybe not the most recent one.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Maybe we could do role play.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: No, it's not a role play, because it's ridiculous.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: He would say that where we get our moral cues from is that over time we discover what's good for the progress of society and that becomes our morality.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: Here's the problem with that answer is that when we emancipated slaves here through the Civil War, it was not good for society, it was bad.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: It was economically detrimental For America, it set us back a hundred years Economically, and so, by Sam Harris's standards, he would not have freed the slaves.
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, he would have said it's not good for us and even like, even if it's not what what's just?
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: He would have said it's not good for us and even if it's not, think about how low of a standard that is.
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: So all I need to do is create a society in which I can prove that slavery is good for the next person and therefore slavery is fine.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: And why is the progress for society the aim goal for mankind?
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Great question why yeah?
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Who says yeah, exactly.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: And on top of that, talking about what's good for society.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: What's good for society from the standpoint of an atheist who lives in a random chance universe?
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: What's good for society is survival of the fittest, and that means you kill anyone who's weaker than you.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: You use them for your own purposes and gain.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: And that happens in nature with lions, antelopes.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes no sense and they have no ground upon which to say this is wrong.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: Plus, we've talked about it before.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: There had to come a point where someone stood up and said slavery is not right.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, William Wilberforce was a great example of this.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: According to the atheistic perspective, that person is wicked.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: That's right, because if it's society that decides at that very time, that's what it was, so there should be no one standing up.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: That's right, because it wasn't like progressive, it was instant they stood up.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Hey, don't do this.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, social reformers should be treated as outcasts.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: William Wilberforce should not be heralded as a hero.
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: He should be one who should be deemed as a villain.
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: He's a wicked man going against what society's determined is right, and, for that matter, it's also important to recognize that anybody who looks at who would assume oh well, doesn't the Bible endorse slavery.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: I want to say this gently and respectfully.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: I want you to realize that you are borrowing a moral and ethical standard and then trying attempting to use it against God.
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: Tom Holland in his book Dominion he's not a Christian, he's agnostic, but he's a renowned historian.
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: I've quoted him several times on this podcast, but I think he's important.
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: He goes through history and he recognizes that we are all borrowing our ethics and our morality from Christianity, that we are all borrowing our ethics and our morality from Christianity, that if it wasn't for Christianity, your disposition against slavery simply wouldn't exist.
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: That is given to you.
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: You have inherited that by Christian history in Western civilization and now you're assuming that against God's word, the very word that told you that slavery was wrong.
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: Wow, that's good.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Oscar.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and look like you mentioned earlier, oscar.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Of course the Bible could have been more explicit in terms of talking about what we see as far as modern day slavery.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: We referenced a few things where it talks about kidnapping and that sort of type of chattel slavery.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: It could have been more explicit, but it's important for us to remember God's intent through the word and that he didn't address every societal issue or maybe political issues.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: I love what Gott Question says in this regard.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: It says the seeds of the emancipation of slaves are in the Bible, which teaches that all men are created by God and made in his image, which condemns those who kidnap and sell a person and which shows that a slave can truly be a brother in the Lord.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: That's the Philemon issue.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Some criticize the Bible because it did not demand an immediate overthrow of every ingrained centuries-old custom of the day.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: But, as Warren Worsby pointed out, the Lord chooses to change people in society gradually through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the proclamation of the truth of the Word of God, and so we have to remember that.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: There's so much more that we could say on this, of course, and go deeper into it.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Of course there were the different forms of slavery.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: We looked closely at the one that dealt with Hebrew and between Hebrew and Hebrew there were the other kinds of the foreign nations and wartime and all that.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: And Hebrew there were the other kinds of the four nations and wartime and all that.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: But I think we've said enough to give the gist of what's ingrained in the Word and what the seeds are that are there to give us a clear picture.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: Got questions are great, you know.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: I got questions called and did an interview with me and they had questions.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Did you got some, ray?
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: I got the answers for them.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Well, man, this has stirred me up personally and just reminded me again.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: And, friends, we hope it reminded you of a couple things.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: First of all, that it reminded you that you have to plumb the depths of the Word, you have to look closely at it and not just go by.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, so-and-so said this, there's slavery in the Bible.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Ah, you know, and scream and run.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: There are brethren who are of African origin, to try to be correct in all this, but no, seriously, black brothers and sisters who obviously are people of the Word of God, who know God's Word, who are leaders within the faith, and they understand all this and they see this, and so you have to go deep into the Word and what it teaches.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: And then, secondly, we hope, as exhorted us, that you recognize your call to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: I mean that language is used.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Paul used it, james used it.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Bondservant of Jesus Christ, that imagery of being a willful servant of the one who set you free and you gave you everlasting life.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: We are his.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: We're no longer our own.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: We've been bought with a price, and so we don't just want you to just have fun listening to this podcast.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: We want to challenge you to look into your life and to say am I a surrendered bondservant of Jesus?
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Is every area of my life fully given over to Him?
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: And when I sin, do I repent and come back and say Lord, I'm yours, use me for your glory.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: That's hugely important.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: So be encouraged, friends.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: All right, friends, don't forget.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: So many lions, so few Daniels living without compromise in a world of truth.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Living Waters Mug, the Evidence Study Bible all at livingwaterscom.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: And guys, thank you.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening, thank you for sharing and telling people about the podcast.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: Again, thousands of reviews, five stars, millions of downloads, one of the top podcasts in the world, and we're grateful to the Lord for doing that.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: We really still have no idea what we're doing, but God continues to work.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: So thank you for joining us.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: Friends, we'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast, the one podcast you can't wait to turn off.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Click.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: I was going to do a click.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I had to have a little click at the end.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah,