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IFH 770: Screenwriting Unchained – Master Story Structure with Emmanuel Oberg · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
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  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.
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  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Indie Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number seven seven.
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  Speaker 2: Change is hardest at the beginning, messiest in the middle,
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  Speaker 2: and the best at the end. Robin Shrauma.
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  Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
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  Speaker 1: Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive
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  Speaker 1: and thrive as an indie filmmaker in the jungles of
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  Speaker 1: the film biz.
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  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
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  Speaker 2: episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast. I am your
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  Speaker 2: humble host Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by Rise
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  Speaker 2: of the Film Entrepreneur How to turn your independent film
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  Speaker 2: into a profitable business. It's harder today than ever before
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• 1:48
  Speaker 2: That's film bizbook dot com. Now today on the show, guys,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: we have Emmanuel o'bergh who is the writer of screenwriting Unchained.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: Reclaim your creative freedom and mass story structure with the
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: story Type Method. Now, I always like to bring different
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  Speaker 2: perspectives and different kinds of ways to tell stories, different
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  Speaker 2: techniques because you never know which one resonates with you.
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  Speaker 2: Some of you might like John Truby, some of them
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  Speaker 2: like Michael Haig, some of you like Christopher Uh. You know,
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  Speaker 2: save the Cat, multiple different kinds of story structures or
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: Robert McKee, It doesn't matter as long as you're able
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  Speaker 2: to tell a good story. So I always love introducing
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  Speaker 2: the Tribe to new just ways of telling stories because
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  Speaker 2: something just might click, You just might get an idea,
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  Speaker 2: and Emmanuel definitely has that in spades in this conversation. Now,
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  Speaker 2: his technique is practical and a no nonsense guy that
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  Speaker 2: leaves behind one size fits all story theory and offers
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  Speaker 2: a really modern approach to story structure. And we go
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  Speaker 2: into a deep dive into his method. So, without any
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  Speaker 2: further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Emmanuel Ohberg. I
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  Speaker 2: like to to the show. Emmanuel Oberg, thank you so
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: much for coming on.
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  Speaker 3: The show, Hi, Alex said, it's a pleasure.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, No, thanks for taking the time
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  Speaker 2: out to hopefully drop some knowledge bombs on the on
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  Speaker 2: the Tribe today. And I'm really interested to hear about
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  Speaker 2: your unique approach to story the screenwriting in general. And
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  Speaker 2: before we get into that, how did you get into
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  Speaker 2: the business in the first place.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think one of the best way to learn
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  Speaker 3: about screenwriting is to read, and so I tried to
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  Speaker 3: find ways to read scripts and idle scripts that were
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  Speaker 3: not produced, but I had a good chance of getting produced,
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  Speaker 3: and so I started as a reader. I had followed
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  Speaker 3: a workshop, a very informal workshop led by Guy Screenwater,
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  Speaker 3: who had been taught by Frank Daniel at Columbia University.
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  Speaker 3: And I just found a job as a reader for
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  Speaker 3: Studio Canal on US Coproductions, which is which was great
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  Speaker 3: because I've always loved mainstream American cinema. But that's not
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  Speaker 3: the only thing I like. I have a versatile days,
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: but I have I'm very fond of with with a
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  Speaker 3: good American mainstream cinema. So it was really great opportunity
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  Speaker 3: for me to read scripts which were very high level,
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  Speaker 3: uh and and to do a fairly good chance of
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  Speaker 3: getting made. So what I found really interesting doing that
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  Speaker 3: was to try to make up my own mind before
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  Speaker 3: I saw the film and and then see whether I
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  Speaker 3: was completely off or whether I, you know, had had
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  Speaker 3: assessed properly, you know, the qualities and potential problems of
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  Speaker 3: the story. So I read hundreds of scripts of a
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  Speaker 3: few years and that was really really useful.
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  Speaker 2: Very cool, and uh, this is and where did you
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  Speaker 2: develop your.
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  Speaker 3: Method over the years? I you know, it's really the
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  Speaker 3: same thing. I mean, you learn, you read a lot,
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  Speaker 3: you learn a lot from other people, of course, and
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  Speaker 3: when you start and then over the years, I guess
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  Speaker 3: you developed your your own ways to look at things.
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  Speaker 3: And I've always been interested in training because for me,
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  Speaker 3: the best way to learn is to is to teach.
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  Speaker 3: That's a the way the way I look at it.
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  Speaker 3: It forces you to clarify your ideas. Uh. And also
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  Speaker 3: you can see whether what you're you know, what you
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  Speaker 3: come up with is kind of helpful or not. And
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  Speaker 3: so I am I kind of. I did a lot
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  Speaker 3: of training over the years as I was, you know,
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  Speaker 3: working more and more as a consultant and then as
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  Speaker 3: a as a writer or co writer, and and my
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  Speaker 3: my training gradually I realized that myrain my training was
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  Speaker 3: there was more of a disconnect between what I was
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  Speaker 3: teaching or the where I was teaching and where I
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  Speaker 3: was actually practicing screenwriting. And and I I thought, I
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  Speaker 3: need to find a way to put that together. And
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  Speaker 3: that's how I decided to try to come up with
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  Speaker 3: my own my own theory or my own way is
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  Speaker 3: to my own way to put things together and try
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  Speaker 3: to make sense of it.
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  Speaker 2: Now before we actually get into your method, what after
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  Speaker 2: reading so many scripts. I always love asking this of
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  Speaker 2: of readers and also of screenwriting instructors, is what is
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  Speaker 2: the biggest mistake you see first time screenwriters make?
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  Speaker 3: Or it's it's you see some very very common problems
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  Speaker 3: in in in beginners screenwriting screenplays. But I guess the
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  Speaker 3: one of the I mean one of the uh, one
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  Speaker 3: of the biggest one, I guess is to is to
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  Speaker 3: try to write a script without thinking about the way
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  Speaker 3: it's going to be read, I mean read by someone
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  Speaker 3: who has never read it or seen by the audience
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  Speaker 3: for the first time. Very often when we write a screenplay,
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  Speaker 3: especially when we begin, we can be really excited and
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  Speaker 3: and and focusing on our protagonists for example, and and
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  Speaker 3: see the story from the point of your protagonist and
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  Speaker 3: exclusively from that point of view. And many problems in
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  Speaker 3: screen I didn't come from that, because because sometimes if
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  Speaker 3: you have an antagonist, they're not clever enough because you're
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  Speaker 3: not thinking, Okay, if I am the antagonist, what would
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  Speaker 3: I do in this situation? And you know, things like that.
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  Speaker 3: I think it's really useful to try to to think
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  Speaker 3: about how will an audience or how will a reader
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  Speaker 3: who has never heard anything about my story, how are
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  Speaker 3: they going to pursue the story? How is someone who
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: doesn't know anything about the story is going to perceive it?
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  Speaker 3: Because we know every I mean, we're supposed to know
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  Speaker 3: everything about our screenplay, and sometimes we lose sight of that.
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  Speaker 3: We don't realize that there is a mystery that we
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: find fascinating. But that's because we know the ending. We
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  Speaker 3: know that mixed rise in the end, but the audience won't,
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  Speaker 3: and the audience might be very bored after a while,
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  Speaker 3: just because we don't know enough. For example, all these
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  Speaker 3: things I think is make you know, I can explain
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  Speaker 3: quite a few mistakes in beginner screenplay, sticking to a
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  Speaker 3: point of view and not realizing that the onience doesn't
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  Speaker 3: know anything and and might need to know more than
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: we think they might need at some point.
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  Speaker 2: Would you agree that a lot of screenwriters, first time
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  Speaker 2: or not first time, a lot of times they'll try
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  Speaker 2: to try to get ahead of the marketplace and try
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  Speaker 2: to write what's hot right now as opposed to writing
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  Speaker 2: what is something that's inside of them, and generally it
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  Speaker 2: rarely works that they too.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you asked for one, so I tried
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  Speaker 3: to pick one.
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  Speaker 2: Oh no, there's probably a thousand.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, that's clearly another one. Now, I mean it's
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  Speaker 3: it's are you still here?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, the screen just went, you know, I am, I am.
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  Speaker 3: It's it's it's a. It's a it's a big issue because,
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  Speaker 3: of course, if you do that, you'll you'll three four
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  Speaker 3: or five years late, because what's what's now was in
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  Speaker 3: development three or five years ago, and and it's it's
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  Speaker 3: just it's just if you if you do that, you
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  Speaker 3: you tend to be out of sync of what what's
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  Speaker 3: actually at the moment. The other thing I think that's
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  Speaker 3: wrong when you do that is that you're you're trying
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  Speaker 3: to write what you think them out get want wants
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  Speaker 3: what I think you should write what you feel passionate
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  Speaker 3: about and really want to write. Of course, it has
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  Speaker 3: to match, you know, it has to be something that
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  Speaker 3: can be that can get made, and that's realistic and
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  Speaker 3: that has an audience and so on. But I think
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  Speaker 3: the main thing to be concerned about is if that's
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  Speaker 3: my last screenplay, what do I want to write. I'm
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: not trying to think, oh, I'm going to write this,
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  Speaker 3: because that seems to be really hard, and that seems
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  Speaker 3: to be what they want. And most, you know, most
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: most people working in development, they don't know what they want.
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  Speaker 3: They want a great screenplay. They will see it when
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: they when they find it on their desk. But although
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: they will say if you ask them or want this,
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: and you want that, and very often they do have
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: a brief regartting specific genres or specific kind of stories,
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  Speaker 3: but regartting regetting you know, what they actually want. Very
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  Speaker 3: often it's like, you know, they they find something they
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  Speaker 3: like because it's because it's exciting, because it's new, because
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  Speaker 3: it's original. And for me, the best advice to to
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  Speaker 3: follow when you're writing a screen is to keep that passion.
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  Speaker 3: Keep that.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
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  Speaker 3: Keep what you know, write about something that you're really
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  Speaker 3: excited about, because if you're not, no one is going
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  Speaker 3: to be. It's just it's just people sense it when
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: when they read the script, what the writer has just
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: tried to follow a kind of formula or try to
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: so and gets the market, it just feels either familiate
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: or or or you know, it's it's just not interesting.
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  Speaker 3: Half the time.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and generally speaking, films that do kind of explode
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: or go out of you know, that are a little
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: bit different than the norm are the ones that make
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: it are because the writer and or filmmaker was extremely
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: passionate about what they were doing and they had a
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: very unique voice.
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: I always use Tarantino as an example, or Nolan or
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: you know, or Sorkin or these guys.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: And as you as you can see these guys they
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: can be very original. But that doesn't mean they cannot
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: reach a wide audience. I mean, whether it's mainstream or
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: it's not necessarily a blockbuster audience, but it's it's an
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: audience that's definitely big enough to to recoup the investment
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  Speaker 3: in their project. And I think it's it's it's it's
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  Speaker 3: not incompatible to write something you feel passionate about, but
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: doing doing it in a way that's that allows you
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: to not you know, not you know, reaching an audience
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  Speaker 3: and writing something original is not incompatible.
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  Speaker 2: Now, let's talk a little bit about the story type method,
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  Speaker 2: which is the method that you yes, let's that you've developed.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I'm very interesting to see what this method is, So
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: please tell the audience what this is.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's I mean, I guess at first it's it's
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: a it's a kind of reaction. I'm a screenwriter, so
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: I'd rather write screenplays than write books about screenwriting. But
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: I I just felt over the years again I felt
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: frustrated with a lot of screenwriting theories floating around which
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: I found where quite prescriptive in the way they try
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: to tell you you have to do this, you have
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: to do that at that page number, this is supposed
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  Speaker 3: to happen. And I just couldn't find any real justification
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: for that. And uh, and some of them are very
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: useful from a kind of productivity point of you. They
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: tell you, well, you should follow all these steps, so
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: if you do this, this, and that, you have a screenplay.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: And that's true. If you if you follow this this, uh,
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: this kind of formula or that kind of way to
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: come up with a story, you will end up with
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  Speaker 3: a screenplay and it you know, it will have one hundred,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: one hundred and ten pages and it will tell a story.
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  Speaker 3: And the problem is that when you when you write
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: a story that way, and you tend to end up
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: with a story that's quite predictable, and you also tend
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: to be much less free in the way you want
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: to tell that story. And I was looking, you know,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: I was watching films around and and many of the
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  Speaker 3: tams that I was watching you mentioned Christopher Noland for example.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of Christopher Nolan, and and when
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: I watched these films, I don't see any kind of
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: you know, formula that's been applied there absolutely entertaining their moving,
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  Speaker 3: they work, and and so what I try to do
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: that I try to find a way to approach screenwriting
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: in in such a way that you would structure your story,
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: but you would be much freer in the way you
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: would approach story structure. That's that's the main motivation for
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: the method. It's not I don't believe I'm right or
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: I don't believe there is one way to look at
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: story structure. I think there are as many ways as
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: there are writers. But I wanted to try to come
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: up with a tool that would try to focus on
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: what's what's what's been useful over the years, the kind
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: of the tools and the principle that have been useful
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: without without being prescriptive into the way to use them,
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: because I find that approach more it's some prots that
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: that suits me better, I guess.
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  Speaker 2: So then what is specifically the story type method?
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: Well, the the idea that I well, the first thing
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: is that I I just disagreed with the fact that
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: we could we could apply the same method, the same
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: way to structure a story to all stories. So I
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: try to think, okay, if we, if we, if you
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: try to be more useful than saying you can't do
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: anything you want because the are no rules. I try
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: to think, okay, how can we define what a good
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: story is? And and I came up with the you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: with my definition of a of a good story for
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: a screenplay, which is a metaphor for problem solving process,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: and that that that way to define a story. It
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: doesn't it doesn't talk about through structure, it doesn't talk
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: about anything like that. It's just what is a story.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: It's it's a metaphor for problem solving process. So we
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: that that means that in any story which we can follow,
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: there tends to be a main problem in that story.
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: That's that's the that's the focus of story. And what
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: I find useful as the next step is try to
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: to try to identify where that problem lies in the story,
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: because I find that depending on where the problem lies
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: in the story, you tend to develop it in a
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: slightly different way. You can use the same tools, but
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: you will develop it in this in a slightly different way.
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: For example, if the main proleminu story lies outside of
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: the protagonist, we tend to deal with what I call
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: a plot led story, which is a story where which
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: focuses on the main dramatic action. Someone wants to achieve
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: a goal, usually a conscious goal. And you know, it's
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: kind of it's the most classical form of storytelling. Theymit
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: of ctycle, the experience conflict, and we tend to identify
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: with with with that character because of that and that
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: it's it's kind of it's a very important part of storytelling,
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: but it's not the only way to tell a story. Uh.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: The The second possible location of the problem is when
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: the problem lies within The main problem lies within the protagonist,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: and in that case we tend to be dealing with
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: what I call a character let story, where the main
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: source of conflict in the story it comes from the
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: protagonists themselves, and in that case, what shapes the story
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  Speaker 3: is the main evolution of the protagonist, not the main
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: dramatic action.
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  Speaker 2: And what's an example of that.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Well, to take two very recent examples. If an example
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: for a plot let story, if you take gravity, uh,
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  Speaker 3: you know, it's surviving, coming back, you know, going back
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: to Earth. That's the main problem lies outside of the protagonist.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: It's it's space. How to you know how to survive
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: in space. It's like in many disaster movies where it's
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: you fight a natural you know, an antagonist which is
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: which is nature, a non tactic force which is nature.
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  Speaker 3: So the main problem lies outside of the protagonist. There
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: is an internal subplot which is about the death of
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: the daughter, for example, but the main problem, I guess
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: we'd agree on that is that she has to survive
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: and she has to find a way to get back
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  Speaker 3: to Earth. That's the main problem in the story. So
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: it's plot led because the main problem lies outside. If
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: you take a story like a civil learning's playbook, that's
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: character in it. He has a goal, he has a
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: very clear conscious goal which is to get back with
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: this get back together with his wife Nikki, and we understand,
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: we understand that goal from minute one in the story.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: But as soon as we realize that he's actually in
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: a psycretic hospital, you kind of Okay, hang on, I
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: understand that you want to get back together with your wife,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: but until I understand why you are center that sacretic hospital,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure that I want to be with you
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: on that journey, because then very well be with your wife,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: you know. So you spend the first ten to fifteen
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: minutes of the film trying to figure out what happened
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: to this character and why we is in a secrety hospital,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: and by the end of the first fifteen minutes, I
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: think you understand that, yes, he has a conscious goal
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: as a protagonist. He wants to get back together with
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: his wife, and that's what he's going to try to
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: achieve over the most of the film. But I think
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: the audience understands white only in the story that what
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: he needs is to move on from his wife, and
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: we actually don't want him to end up with his wife,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: but we want him to end up with Tiffany, who
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: is going to meet a bit later in the story.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: So we understand that what's a stake, that what's really
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: at stake in the story is not what the character wants,
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: but what the character needs, and that the main problem
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: in the story actually lies within the protagonist within the
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: within pat in his example, because he's deluded in a way.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: He thinks that he's find that he's in control, that
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: he will get back together with his wife, because he
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: has a positive attitude and he's you know, all about
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: finding the civil lining. But in reality, we know that
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: he is not in control, that he needs to move on,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: that he needs to he needs to get better. And
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: and in that way, we have we have an advance
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: over him, We know more than he does. We we
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: feel a bit clever in a way because we we
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: think that we we are more aware of what he
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: needs than he is than he is himself. And for me,
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: that's a character led story. It's it's when the protagonist
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: might have a goal, but actually what they need to
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: realize is that they have a more important problem within
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: within themselves that they need to solve. And very often
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: this problem is and they're not they're not aware of
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: that problem and in a character let's so one of
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: the one of the very interesting things about character led stories,
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: and why I think it's interesting to make that difference between,
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: for example, plot land and character lead, is that very
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: often in character led story is in order to get
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: what they need. The protagonist needs to give upon what
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: they want, which is for example, what happens in Silvelan's playbook.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: He wants to get back together with his wife, but
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: in order to move on and to end up with
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: the woman that he actually issues and up with, he
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: has to give up getting back together with her, and
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: that's his journey. That's this. It's hard to to to
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: use a kind of uh, you know, well known concept
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: in in in in the story.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: So that's an example of for me, of of a
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: character led story where the what what shapes the story
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: is not the main dramatic action of what the character wants,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: but it's the main evolution of the character. How how
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: is the character going to evolve? Another way to talk
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: about the difference is to say, in a blot led story,
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: when the main problem is lies outside of the protagonist,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: the well, most of the conflict tants to come from
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: h other characters, from outside of the character. But you, you,
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: you're The question that you're going to ask yourself is
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: will the protagonist Over most of the film is will
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: the protagonist reach the goal or not? What we want
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: to find out is are they going to be able
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: to survive or to kill the bad guy or to whatever.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: While the character led story, the question we ask ourselves
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: is not will the character get what they want? But
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: will the character find a way to change or not?
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: And and because of that we we will develop will
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: structure the story actually quite differently because because on the
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: one hand, when you develop a plotlet story, you you
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: can you can stick to a single goal over the
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: whole film. You'll have subgoals, different ways for the protagonists
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: to reach the goal, but you can really shape the
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: story and use as a dramatic backbone the main main
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: dramatic action of the protagonist over the conscious want of
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: the protagonists in a In a character let story, what
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: you're going to do is a bit different because because
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: you're focusing structurally on the evolution of the character, what
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: you're going to do is you're going to try to
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: generate the conflict in the story that's going to force
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: the character to change. Because that's usually when we change
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: in life, is not because we've decided to change, but
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: it's because things happen that that that force us to change,
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: and that tends to be conflict, which is also you
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: know how one of the reasons why conflicting is so
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: important in in screenwriting, not not because we're told we
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: have to have conflict in a story, because if every
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: time we want change or we want evolution in in
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: a story, that tends to happen because of conflict. So
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: so that's that's that's one of the of the of
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: the biggest differences. Because between blood lad and character len.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Have a theme and have a theme lead well.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Film that is is less common, especially in in cinema.
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: I think it's more common in TV writing and possibly
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: in documentary, but fim that is when when you well,
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: sometimes you don't have a main plot in a story.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: In a plot led story, the main plot is about
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: the main drama action. In a character story, the main
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: plot is about the men dramatic evolution. But sometimes you
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: don't have a kind of man dramatic action or mentor
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: metic evolution. You have different storylines which are connected with
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: each other, and you cannot really say this one is
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: the main one. And usually what we can usually we
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: call this a multi stranded narrative. And what tends to
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: happen in this kind of stories is that the main
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: problem is lies in society, and so all these different storylines.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: If I take an example, a film like Crash or Magnolia,
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: or even a film like Dunkirk another Christopher Noland's film
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: and one, they have these different storylines which are connected
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: to the same theme, and it's it can be a
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: very interesting story film because sometimes we handle we try
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: to handle a problem, as I said, which is in society,
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: and it's very difficult to to handle that problem in
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: such a way that we can come to conclusive ending,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: because it can feel very black and white to say, yes,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: the prognists solves the problem or not the protagonist fails
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: to solve the problem. Because if for example, we're talking
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: about let's say drugs, as in traffic Soderbergs traffic, whether
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: the main problem is in society it's about drugs and
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: not how it can threaten you know, Western societies. And
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: in a story such as this, if you take a
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: single protagonist, okay, you can decide my protagonist will will
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: solve that problem or will fail, But that doesn't say
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: much about the problem in society because one individual resolving
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: of failing to vis of the problem, you know, doesn't
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: mean much. Well, if you handle the such a story
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: as a theme led story, you can because you have
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: I don't know five seven, eight, ten different storylines, each
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: of them with its own protagonists and all of them
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: connected to the same problem in society. Then you can
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: have a much more subtle way to approach the problem
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: that that you want to explore, because you can have
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: some of the protagonists of of of each strand succeeding
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: to find a way to deal with the problem, others
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: who would fail. And in the end you don't have
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: to say yes they succeed or yes they fail. Some
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: will succeed, some will fail, and you can still convey
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: some meaning because we'll understand that problem in society better,
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: or we'll think about it after we watch the film
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: and so on. So for me, it's one good way
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: to try to avoid the the first an open ending
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: when it's frustrating. Sometimes an open ending can be very
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: satisfying because you're like, oh, you know what happens, and
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: and every every person in the audience can make their
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: own ending.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: In a way, it's kind of like an inception. If
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: we might use another normal.
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: Inception exactly inception bird Man. There are things that work
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: with an open ending, even Fellman Louis is kind of.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: It's kind of kind of an open ending.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, we kind of know that that that
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: car is not going to stay suspended mid air forever,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: so that would be great adds, but there is that
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: it doesn't show. No.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you a question about film all the
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: wise is it I would imagine that's a character lead
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: a character led story correct or.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: Am I it's It's a very interesting case because actually
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: it's it's it's one of these of these situations where
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: and what. Actually, one of the reasons why I didn't
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: stick to solely these three main story types is because
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: I you know, I guess three is better than one,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: but I still don't believe that you can fit old
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: stories in three boxes. So it was a fourth box,
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: which is something else, you know, hy hybrid things that
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: don't fit into any of these boxes. What I find
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: interesting in infanmon Newies, I've not really watched it recently,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: but what I find interesting in it is that one
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: of my frustrations. I love the film and I really enjoyed,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: uh watching it, but one of my first straustions in
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: it was that I'm a feminist and I felt quite
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: frustrated with the fact that two women who wanted to
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: be free, who had not really done anything wrong. I mean, okay,
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: they killed a man, but that's the guy who was
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: trying to rape one of them, so you know, it's
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: not it's not as if they had, you know, decided
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: to murder the guy.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: You know, it was it was done. It was done
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: in the heat of the moment.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: So self defense and the guy was a start. So
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, these these women, Yes they've committed
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: a crime, but they just wanted to be free, and
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: the way they pay their aspiration for freedom is death,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: as if there was no.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Way to the ultimately the ultimate freedom.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: And from from my point of yours a feminist, that's
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: the only thing that I didn't I really enjoyed the
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: whole film, but I didn't like the ending because for me,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: it is it's mostly plot led, or it could be
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: theme led. It's not multi strended, but it could be
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: film led, because the main problem in that film is
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: not really in them. It's in society or in other characters,
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: but it's not in them. And the fact that they
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: have to show that they die in the end because
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: they exercise their freedom and it looks like it's the
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: only way out. It makes it a very memorable, memorable
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: ending because we don't want that and we don't really
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: see it coming. But it's from a kind of thematical
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: point of view. It kind of always as a feminist,
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: it kind of always slightly annoyed me that these two
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: women that I that I loved had to die. I
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: guess it next the tragedy.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And by the way, if no one's seen them, Louise,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: we're sorry. Ye spoiler no, no, no, spoiler.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Spoiler alert you have you have to see it now.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you haven't seen it, it came
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: out in what eighty nine ninety, I think it's it's
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: it's the spoiler alert is past. It's your fault.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: At this point, we can add one in the recording.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: Get ten minutes if you can.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Now let me ask you, so, how do you like
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: identify the story type of your project? Because I just
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: made it. See, I thought it was character driven because
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: those characters were so strong. But at further an, you know,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: the further we analyze it, it was like, no, you're
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: absolutely right, it's not a character. It's not something within them.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: I know, but you know, what you just said is
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: such essential. It's like you put your finger on it.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: It's very often we talk about character driven because we
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: have strong characters, and that's that's not what I mean
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: by character lead. And maybe it's not different or distinctive enough.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: But one of the reasons why I didn't say character
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: driven but character led was to try to find a
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: way to to not say character driven, because for me,
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: a great story has great characters, whether it's blot led,
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: character led, or theme lead or anything. If we don't
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: care about the characters, we I think we simply won't
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: care about the story. And it's true in a comedy,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: it's true. In a thriller, it's true. You know, you
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: can you can have your characters face a lot of conflict,
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: a lot of difficult situations if we don't care about them,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: if we don't understand them, if you don't understand that decisions,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: you know, we just don't care. And and and what
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: when you said, uh, it's it's it has strong characters,
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: but it's not character driven because it's not character led,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: because the main problem is not within the characters.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: And that's that's the key to the method that I'm
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: trying to to to suggest. It's to try to to
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: to go away from Okay, it's a lot about the
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: plot or it's it's character driven, but but to try
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: to really identify ways the main problem in the story.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: And you will see that in some stories we have
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: a story which has really strong characters, but it's nevertheless
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: plot led or or something else. It's it's definitely not
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: correct connected.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's And I always love beating up on this
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: film because it deserves to be beaten up. Justice League
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: a film, a film that had which one sorry Justice
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Justice League, the Justice League, the Justice League movie that
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: which which was considered as a horrible horrible film. And
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I saw it, So it's a horrible horrible film.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: Which you have to remind me which many it is,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: because I probably have seen it.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: But no, it's the one with it's the one with
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Superman so much like I can show them. Yeah, No,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: it's the one that has the Superman and the Batman.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: It's the one right after Batman versus Superman, and it
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: has Wonder Woman in it, and it has Aquaman and
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: all this stuff.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: And I confuse it with the with the with the
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Batman Lego movie.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: As by the way, much better film, movies, much much
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: better film.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: Which you mean, I have seen it, so we can
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: talk about it.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, So that film. You know, what I find fascinating
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: is that all the characters in the movie are extremely
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: well known by the public and has major emotional connections
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: to those characters like Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and and
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: yet it failed miserably on multiple levels to connect with audiences. Now,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: there was a lot of things happening to the characters,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, you really didn't
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: care about I didn't at least I didn't care about
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: that Batman or that Superman or that wonder Woman. And
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: we hadn't yet. I don't think we had yet seen
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: wonder Woman in the movie. I don't think had come out.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Yea, she was introduced there yet, Yeah it was.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Or if she had, you know, she was the only
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: good thing about it. But then Acoman hadn't come out yet,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: so we hadn't really connected with that character either, as
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: opposed to Nolan's Batman.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Oh no, sorry, I'm saying I'm making confusion with the
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: Batman versus Superman in Justice League. She I think it
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: was after this, it was.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: After You're right, it was after her, but she was
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: like one of the things that you did connect her
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: exactly exactly, but you didn't connect to Superman or Ben
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Affleck's Batman, not nearly as much as like you would
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: connect to Chris Nolan's Batman like that Batman.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Is, yes, but that I mean that That's also a
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: very interesting point, which is which is all about conflict.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: In fact, it's and it's a big problem that you
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: have with superhero movies because uh, if a superhero doesn't
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: have doesn't experience en of conflict when well, then of
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: course what they're boring and what what works whether when
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: you take a single whether it's Batman or a woman
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: or Superman, if you take the single movie, usually you
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: try to find some ways in that single movie to
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: make it so that yes, they have a super power,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: but either you know, Superman has kryptonite and Batman has
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: uh uh uh dual identity and what's his main problem
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: in when in Batman begins, he has to find redemption?
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: Is fair as all about Stine conflict because if you know,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: if probably feels responsible for the just of his dad
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: and his parents and and and all of that, and
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: so you feel for the characters because they do experience
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: a lot of conflict despite the despite the superpowers, and
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: also what tends to work well in the first I mean,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: the Dark Knack was fantastic now, but probably at least
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: as much big of the Joker than because of as
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: a character than because of the Batman itself. But in
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: Batman Begins, you you feel a lot for the character,
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: and also because it's the construction of the person who
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: is going to become that's super he still origin. And
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: I was talking about the Batman Begins. Yes, yeah, it
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: is the origin. Yeah, you're right, sorry, and so and
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: so there is a dramaticarenty because we know that this
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: character is going to become Batman or is going to
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: become Superman, and so we we're interested in finding out
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: how that's going to happen, which is one element of
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: interest in the in the story when it's about one
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: individual superhero. But also you if you find ways to
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: get the units to understand how this character is a
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: human because of the conflict that they experience and the
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: emotions that they experience. The superpowers are just one element
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: of the story, which can make some action sequences and
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: set pieces really exciting because of what happens in there.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: But we do care about the character and so we
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: do care about the action sequences and said pieces. If
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: you don't have that, you're in trouble. And I think
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: that's what happens in these films where you have, you know,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: the ensemble piece without being properly structured as as as
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: as a story in itself. Like if you take the
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Justice League yet they have to save the world. But
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: again again that's the thing, but you don't. I can't
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: remember what is the main conflict. I mean some of
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: them will.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: There is there is none like there's like there's there.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: They're trying and I think they're trying to create a
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: conflict within the team because they're not really a team
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: because there are all these huge you know, they're essentially gods,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: so you're like having a bunch of gods fight against
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: each other, like amongst each other. And then the outside force,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: which is we've seen a million times, doesn't really pose
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: a tremendous amount of It does pose a threat to
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the world, but it doesn't pose a threat. It just
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: like someone like something as sim as the Joker, who
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: arguably is one of the greatest villains I've ever seen
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: on screen, that the heath Ledger Joker, because he he's
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: literally counterbalanced to Batman. He's the opposite you know, you
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: know Batman wants it's he's completely opposite in every which
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: way to Batman. And he challenges Batman in a way
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: that you know, it scars him at the end. You know,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: at the end of that movie, he has to make
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: a choice, you know that leads us into the dark
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Knack rises. But based on what challenges that character, that
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: villain did to Batman, and that is what makes that movie.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: And it's not a huge like the stakes aren't They're
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: huge to a certain extent, but they're not like the
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: world's gonna end. It was virtual more personal like, yeah,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: we're gonna blow up the city, I'm gonna blow up
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: a boat, or I'm gonna take your girl. Those are
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: very small things compared with well.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean it's very very clever. He's from
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: a thematic point of view, Yeah, I think it has
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: a very strong theme, which is, you know, kills us
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: his order. And what's what's really interesting also that one
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: of the main questions it raises, which I think makes
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: the makes the Felm very interesting thematically. Is is it
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: worth it for Batman to risk his life and to
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: fight for Gotham Cities people? Yeah? Uh, and that that's
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: really well illustrated in the you know, when the two
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: boats and the and the bombs and are they going
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: to make the right decision and these kind of moments
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: in the story. But they're they're they're full of suspense,
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: but it's also they're also very interesting thematically. And I
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: think one of the greatest thing about about The Dark
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Knight is that you established the protagonist in in in
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Batman Begins and in Batman Begins as it happens, the
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: protagonist is also the main character. Is the character who
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: we are the most interested in. Uh. He is the
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: character who expenses the most conflict, So is his protagonist
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: and main character in the Dark Knight. What's really interesting
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: is that Batman and Gordon, I guess are protagonist or protagonists,
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: but but the Joker is the main character. Oh. Absolutely,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: And that's what makes the story fascinating as well. That
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: is is a fantastic antagonist. Is I mean, hit Letter
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: was was remarkable in the part but but we we
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: have a protagonist in Batman and or co protagonist with
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: Batman and and and Gordon, who are moving the story forward.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: And yes, we want them to succeed and we feel
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: for them because of the conflict and song. It's sort
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: of surprises as well, which which makes the story very interesting.
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: It's very all written, but the the the conflict with
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, the most interesting character I would say was
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: Batman in Batman Begins. But in the Dark Night, the
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: most interesting character is is the joker? Is that question? Question?
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: It's very often the case in in monster you know,
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: in horror films, in monster stories, you have a protagonists
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: that we identify. We we want them to survive, we
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: want them to succeed. We we become them during the
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: film at an emotional point of view. But the most
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: fascinating character, the most interesting character, it tends to be
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: the antagonists in these in these themes when they work
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: at that. And I think that's that's the way the
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Dark Knight. The Dark Knight works with a really good
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: protagonist antagonys situation.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And the thing is that we spend so much
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: time with the villain, like you generally don't spend so
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: much time with a villain in a movie. You see
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: them come in and out and they they twirl their
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: mustache a little bit, you know.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: But that's that's when the movie is boring. Correct, correct,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: it's it's it's when it becomes predictable. I mean, saving
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: the world is the most you know, cliche, uh goal
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: that you can give an antagonist. So sometimes it can
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: it can be it can make an interesting film, but
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: you need other things to make it interesting. If it's
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: just about a bunch of superheroes to get together to
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: save the world, it it falls flat.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Its falls flat. And the thing I also love about
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: the character of the Joker is that his unpredictability is
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: what keeps you on the edge of your seat because
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: you really have no idea what he's going to do
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: from moment a moment. We'll be right back after a
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: word from our sponsor and now back to the show.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: But that's that's also what happens when you have a
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: really good match between the strength of the protagonist and
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: the strength of the antagonist. That's that's when super movies
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: become boring. It's when we we know that they're so
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: strong that actually we can answer that we we know
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: the answer to the movie before the end. With the
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: Dark Knight, we actually we don't know the answer to
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: the movie until the end, and even the end manages
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: to surprise us absolutely. So that's that's that's one of
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: the things you in a way, and that's that's something
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: that you that's really important to to understand when you
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: write a screenplay is that, yes, conflict is important, but
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: you only you only generate conflict through the difference between
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: the strength of the protagonists and the strength of the
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: obstacles that they face. And when you have a really
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: strong protagonist, as in a superhero movie, will you even
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: need to find an antagonist who is at least as
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: strong and sometimes even look stronger. I'm thinking about something
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: some scenes, for example in in in Boone Supremacy where
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: Boone is fighting one of the other agents who was
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: trained just like him, and you're like, yeah, that works
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: because we know that they had the same training. So
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: when they fight, you know, you feel conflict for Bone
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: because he's fighting and someone else who is who has
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: had the same training and it's just as strong as him.
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: And you need to do that. When you have strong protagonists,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: you need to find ways to make them face some
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: characters or situations which actually generate conflict, because otherwise just
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: have a kind of conceptual antagonist. But if they're weaker,
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: or if they're not original, or if they don't generate
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: obstacles that we're not expecting, well then it's just it's
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: just boring. It's too predictable, and it feels easy.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's one of the big mistakes
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of screenwriters make when they're writing their antagonists,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: is that they're they're weak. They're weak. They don't they
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: don't they don't do exactly what you just said. They
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: have to be as powerful, if not just a bit more.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Either if it's not as strong, they have to be
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: ext much smarter or something along those lines. That's why
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Lex Luthor versus Superman to a certain extent. Now it's
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: so boring to watch them.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: It seems to be outdated. But at the time, at
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: the time watching it.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: The first one, the first one, yeah, yeah.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: The first one. Yeah, I'm that old.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I am that old too. I saw it too. I
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: saw it at school. It was great, but that was
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: like now, and and I don't want to keep going
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: on this superhero kick. I apologize, but I find it
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: fascinating because it's something that a lot of us can
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: kind of connect to, and it's a good illustration of
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: what we're trying to say, or what you're trying to
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: say with with your method. Is if you look like
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: a movie like Superman two, where he's fighting three super
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: people at the same time, one extremely smart, one's extremely
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: much stronger, and one's a lot more cunning, He's literally
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: fighting three very top and antagonists. And that movie it
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: was so brilliant because it wasn't just three verses. One
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: he was suffering, like he was dealing with things internally
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: where he gave up his powers to be with the
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: woman he loved and and then like, oh my god,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: what am I gonna do? I can't fight? There's all
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: this kind of drama that went around with it was
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: so brilliant for I mean, for its time, it's it's
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: absolutely stunning. M Would you would you agree?
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: I would agree. I'm not going to agree too much
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: only because I don't have a very you know, vivid
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: memory of it. I've seen it, yeah, but I I
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: I I don't have a memory of it as strong
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: as I have for the dark kness, gotcha, But I
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: agree with what you just said. I mean, it's a
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: it's a. It's one of the things that that made
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: it work, the fact that you you had three strong antagonists.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: Now wanted to I wanted to talk a little bit
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is something that you
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: have in your book. How can you incorporate Maslow First
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: of all, explain to the audience that they don't know
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: what is Maslow's hierarchy of needs? And then also how
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: can you incorporate that into the writing.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: Well, Maslow, I mean Maslow was a psychologist, the Russian
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: I think psychologist from the nineteen forties, and it came
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: up with this theory, which was at the time quite
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: ground breaking in psychology, called the hierarchy of needs. And
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: in this theory, what it did was breaking down human
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: needs into five different layers or categories, from the most
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: basic ones that absolutely every single human beings go through
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: and can relate to and understand, which is about remaining alive.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: It's the physiological layer, and it's usually represented in a pyramid,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: with the layer at the base of the pyramid being
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: the one that most people can relate to. So that
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: first layer is physical, logical, So it's about breathing, it's
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: about food, it's about water. Sex not not as in
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: having sex, but as in if if as a species
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: we don't have sex, species dies sleep, homeostasis, which is
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: the you know, keeping your the integrity of your body
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: to make sure that you don't lose blood or don't
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: lose up an arm or food, don't get any wound,
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: you know, physical wounds, expression, which which is a very
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: basic human need but if you you know, it can
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: get you in trouble if you cannot fulfill it. Yes,
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: So this this kind of first layer, it's it's it's
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: true for you know, every human being will relate to
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: that because if you're a human being, you you need
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: to fulfill these basic needs to stay alive. And as
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: you go up the pyramid you you have different layers.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: So safety is a very very important layer, which is
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: about security of both body of employment, resources, morality, family, property,
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: all the things you need to have to want your
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: life physically, how can you stay alive? So you need
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: a body over your roof, over your head, You need
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: to have a job to keep you know, being able
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: to pay your rent or feed your family and so on.
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: So that's safety. Which is very again understood by almost
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: everyone on the planet. And then you have above that
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: a third layer that it calls love or belonging, which
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: is about friendship, family, sexual intimacy. And above that is
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: team which is about confidence, achievement, respect of others or
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: by others. And the layer at the very top of
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: the pyramid, which according to Maslow, you can only relate
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: to if you found a way to fulfill all the
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: other levels, which we could discuss, but it's a self actualization,
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: which is all about morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: of prejudice, acceptance of facts, which are quite conceptual things,
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: and that's why they are at the top of the pyramid.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: The idea is that through life you go from focusing
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: primarily on physiological and then you grow through the pyramids,
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: so you then become more attuned to safety, then love, belonging,
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: And the idea from in MASSI loss point of you
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: is that as you as you fulfill one level, you
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: can start focusing on the next one. So and it's
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: true that it's very very difficult, for example, to focus
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: on self actualization when everything else in your life is well.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: Usually if your life is in danger, you focus just
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: on staying your life. I think we'll agree on that enough.
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: But then you know, if you lose your job or
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: if your house gets destroyed, you know, some things as
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: basic as that, it almost supersteds everything else, Like you're
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: you know, again, once you're physically safe, the next thing
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: that you need is protection from from the cold and
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: from from you know, lack of money and stuff like that.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: So if you have problems at lower layers of the
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: of the pyramid, it's quite difficult to concentrate on the
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: on the layers above it. And for example, we know
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: that if we lose our job or things can happen
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: in life that can make relationships, for example, more difficult
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: because we might not have the time to dedicate to
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: them because we're dedicating more time to what's going wrong
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: in other parts of our lives and stuff like that.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: So the original master theory is is this idea that
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: you have different hierarchy in human needs, and that some
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: of them are much more universal than others, and that
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: you tend to be able to focus to relate to
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: the ones at the top of the pyramid once you
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: fulfilled the ones for and I've always been fascinated with
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: that with that theory because I it kind of it
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: felt true in many ways. I think from a psychological
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: point of view. I mean, in the psychology field, it's
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: been superseded by the other theory seen, so I don't
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: think it's seen as accurate in that field. But it
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: kind of took to me and I thought, there is
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: a way to use this in screen running. And one
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: of the first, one of the most useful ways I
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: found was to think, Okay, if we agree with the
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: idea that the story, a good story is a metaphor
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: for problem solving process, and that we have one main
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: problem in in every story, is how where would you
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: place that problem in the pyramid? That main problem in
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: the pyramid? Because I think that can tell you a
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: lot regarding the audience, regarding the shore of the film,
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: even its story type, and and and other things like that. So,
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: for example, if you take a we use gravity as
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: an example. Yeah, so let's let's stick to that. If
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: you take gravity, we'll be right back after a word
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: from our sponsor, and now back to the show. It's
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: a it's a disaster movie, it's a thriller, and the
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: main problem in gravity, I think we'll agree, is about
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: survival right as soon as the space station is hit.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: She's trying to survive with Kovalski to start with, and
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: then on her own. But the main problem is how
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: is she going to survive and find a way to
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: get back to Earth. And this survival is at the
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: very bottom of that main problem is at the very
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: bottom of the pyramid. It's about breathing because in space,
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: if something goes very wrong, you can breathe. And it's
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: about homeostasis. How do you keep your the integrity of
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: your body. I mean, that's that's what she's trying to
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: protect and to to address in in gravity primarily. And
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: if one of the one of the interesting things when
• 51:04
  Speaker 3: you when you think about that is that when the
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: main problem in your story is lies at the very
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: bottom of Masslos pyramid, what it means is that the
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: potential audience for the film is the widest possible audience
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: because every single human being on the planet can relate
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: to that problem because they can understand that problem of survival.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: And what's also very interesting that because it's the first
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: layer of the pyramid, and because it's about every single
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: human being on the planet, it doesn't matter that you
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: know which language, which culture. Not only the protagonist is from,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: but the members of the audience are from because they
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: share that problem. It's a problem that affects every single
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: human being. And I think that when you start looking
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: at at the method that I'm suggesting in that way,
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: what is the main problem in the story and where
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: does it lie in masslow it can you can get
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: a lot of benefits from that because you can get
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: a sense of the potential audience you don't. It's not
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: going to tell you whether you will have a big
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: audience or not, because if your script is bad, it's
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: bad fair enough, and even a bad script doesn't mean
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: that you can't get a wide audience anyway. But what
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: it can give you is an indication of the potential
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: audience of the film if you don't if you're not
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: aware of it, and if you don't do something about it.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: To take an example of the opposite side of that,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: if you think about a story like Crash for example,
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: which is the main problem in the story is racism
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: in La Okay, it's how people in La you know,
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: dealing with the problem of racism in a society. In society,
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: it's a problem in society, and that's one of the
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: reasons why it triggers what I call a theme led story,
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: a multi stranding narrative. So you have like eight, ten,
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: whatever difference, depending on the way you count strands in Chrash,
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: you won't come up with the same number. But that
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: doesn't really matter. What matter is that you have different
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: strands in the story which are connected to the same
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: theme of you know, racial tension in la And if
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: you think about that, that problem is sits right at
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: the top of the pyramid, because it's about morality, it's
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: about lack of prejudice, accetens of facts, and the main
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: problem in the story, the one that sits in society,
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: lies at the very top of the pyramid. But if
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: you look at each strand in the so you could
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: think okay, because it's at the top, then it has
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: a very limited audience because very few people are going
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: to be able to relate to this, despite the fact
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: that thematically it's a problem that everyone can relate to.
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: But what happens is that in the way the story
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: is designed, although the main problem lies at the top
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: of the pyramid, if you look at each strand, the
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: problem in each strand in that story actually lies much
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: lower in the pyramid. It's not about, you know, solving racism,
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: or it's not about lack of prejudice. Very often the
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: main problem is about protecting your family, protecting your business.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: You know, if you think about the locksmith, for example
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: in Crash, is trying to protect his family, the Persian
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: shop owner is trying to protect his business. At some point,
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: it's even going to be about survival when when one
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: of these characters is going to have his life in danger.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: And because the main problem in its strand lies lower
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: in the pyramid, that widens the potential of the audience
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: of the story. And that's that's one of the things
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: that that can make a difference between two multi strained narratives.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: One of them could have a main problem that lies
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: at the top, so theoretically could only reach a very
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: limited audience, and that stays at the top. Every strand
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: is kind of very intellectual, very abstract, and so it's
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: chances of reaching a wider audience is actually quite limited.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: While if you take a story like Crash, where yes
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: you have a main problem which lies at the top
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: of the pyramid, but each problem in its strand actually
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: reaches much lower down the pyramid that widens its potential audience.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the reasons why why
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: crash meta audience, which was bigger than probably what even
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: the filmmakers were were expecting.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Very much, very much, so they didn't expect when they
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: asker either.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: No, but but it's it's it's a very well crafted
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: and very well designed story from from from any point
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: of view, but but but especially from from that one.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: From the idea of trying to to find elements and
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: when your main problem sits at the top, trying to
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: find elements in your story that reach lower to to
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: widen your potential audience, there's also something to that can
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: be useful when we think about that story design.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Now, I'm gonna ask a few questions. I ask all
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: of my guests, what advice would you give a screenwriter
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: wanting to break into the business today.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: I would say, Uh, I think for me, it's three things.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: It's about craft, Uh, it's about ideas, and it's about connections.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: So I would say, you, you know, work on all three.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: I mean there are more than that, but that's the
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: first three that that come to mind. I think I
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: think if if you, I think if you, if you
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: work on on your on your craft, you will you
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: will be able to design better stories so that that
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: will give you an asset. And if you if you
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: work on on on networking and relationship, that that's going
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: to help you to put that to fuition. It's it's
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: always difficult to give advice to to new writers. But
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: I said three things. I kind of forgot the third one.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: It's okay, No, I don't remember. I wasn't in your head.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: But those first two were good. Those first two are
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: very good. Now, can you tell me what book had
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: the biggest impact on your life or career?
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: Uh? Wet book the biggest impact on my life of career.
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: I need to get that one right, no worries, you know,
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: I would say, I might surprise you, but I would
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: say Serrano de Bergerak.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: That's a great book.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: Because it's just I guess I find it amazingly written.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: And maybe it's because I have French origin, but I
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: find the ways written very poetic, and at the same time,
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: the way the story is design is just amazing. And
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: so if you look beyond the surface, which is the
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: dialogue and the you know, the poetry and the way
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: the lines are written, and if you look at the
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: design of the story, it's just really amazing. And I
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: just love the character of Piano. I just really identified
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: with him. And I can read that that that play
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: ten times and I will cry, you know, just the same.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: And that's sad.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: It's beautiful, a beautiful film. It's a beautiful, beautiful film,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: A beautiful film, and also an amazing book. Now what
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: lesson took it the longest to learn, Whether in the
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: film business or in life.
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: Oh, in life, there would be so many. But in
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: the film business, I guess it's not one. It's two.
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: The first one was it took me a very long
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: time to forget about my conscious training, forget about you know,
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: it's probably contradicts what I just said, but I guess
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: that's that's humane, yea. But it took me. I was
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: lucky enough to get a lot of formal training about
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: you know, craft and story theory and so on, and
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: for a long time I thought that that knowledge was
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: the most important, uh. And I not that the most important,
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: but I thought that it was really not necessarily the
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: most important thing in the screenplay, but that knowing these
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: things actually gave me an edge ten years to realize
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: that I had to forget them in a way and
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: to stop thinking about them. And it took be probably
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: ten oh yes, to succeed in doing that. But it's
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: it's just this idea that craft is the most important thing. Yes,
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: what's important is to master craft, but it's not to
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: think about the craft of to have a conscious knowledge
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: of the craft. What's important is mastery. So and mastery
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: is when you when you when you do it without
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: thinking about it. And it's like the like the cycle
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: in in in learning. You know, first you you you
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: don't know, you don't know, so you're you you can
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: be in trouble. H. Then you know that you don't know,
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: so you start to learn about something. And then then
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: you know you know, which is very dangerous, and then
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: and then you it's it's it's just about moving to
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: a stage where you you your conscious knowledge is not
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: important anymore. And I find that interesting because if you
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: think about it, a lot of fantastic writers they never
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: read a book on screenwriting, They never went to a
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: screenwriting workshop.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: Uh, And they were fantastic writers. And yes they worked
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: a lot, but they didn't work they read lots of scripts.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: They probably worked with another writer because there was a
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: lot of apprenticeship going on, and you would learn from
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: from directly from the masters, you know, without having to
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: read a book or going to a master to workshop.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: But but that that learning was by doing. It was
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: not necessarily formalized. And I find it fascinating when I
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: when I listened to interviews from even you know, someone
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: who was alapsuite master of the of the craft, like
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: Billy Wilder or even Alfred Hitchcock. I mean they to
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: take just to example, they had a fantastic mastery of
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: their art, but not from a conceptual point of view.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: And and so you the idea that either you you
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: find a way to master it unconsciously and it doesn't
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: matter if you're not able to to say how it
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: works and how you use it, or if you do
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: learn consciously to try to improve what you're doing, then
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: finding find a way to forget about that and to
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: realize that it's not the most important. Let you have
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: to go back to a kind of unconscious stage where
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: you do it without about without thinking, Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: I mean I was listening or I read the book
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: on Writing with Stephen King, and he's one of those
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: guys is like, look, the craft is the craft. You know,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: you first need to learn English if you're writing in English,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: and you need to learn grammar, but you're not consciously
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: thinking of grammar because you either know it or you don't.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: There's no middle ground. And if you're thinking about grammar
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: as you're writing.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: That's bad.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: That's bad. I mean, you can think about it when
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: you're editing, but not in the creation process. And I
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: use the example of like a carpenter. Carpenter's not thinking
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: about how he's cutting the wood or sanding the wood.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: He's just doing it because he's done of a thousand times.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: He has mastery over that skill. And I think that
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: is a very difficult place to be in the creative arts,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: for filmmaking and for screenwriting, but it's where you need
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: to get to.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah ideally, Yeah.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Now, three of your favorite films of all time?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 4: Oh yes, the toughest question of all times, of all times,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: the whole this will be on your tombstone, so make account. Well,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: I'm going to take one, which which really is one
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: of my favorite films of full damage.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: Jewels, Spielber, Jaws, because I just I think it's fantastic characters,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: it's full of suspense, it's just.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: And it holds to this day. It holds.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, you can.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Watch it right now and with the mechanical shark, with everything,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: it's still it's a masterpiece.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: It is. So that's the first one that comes to mind.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: One of my very recent or fairly recent, fairly recent
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: one is Birdman completely but I I just loved Birdman.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: I was surprised by it because I was not you know,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: I tried to read and and find out as little
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: as possible about films, especially films that I want to watch.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: I never read reviews. I just go, that's the filmmaker
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: I'm interested in. I want to watch that film. So
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: I was. I was. I was just completely taken by it.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: And as always, it's very subjective, you know, it's it's
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: it's depends on who you are, at what point you
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: are in your life, and how you can relate to
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: characters and and you know, whether you connect with the
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: theme and stuff like that. I thought it was an
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: amazing film, So that would make it to my list
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: as well. One last one. I love thrillers, and I
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: would put I would be a really tough call between
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: the Silence of the Lambs and The Fugitive.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: Both excellent films. They could both be on your list.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: They're amazing.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: I would I would put one of these it because
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: I just I love the kind of psychological thrillers that
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: that were made in that era of the nineties. We
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: still make great thrillers, but these kind of thrillers. I'm
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: thinking about the especially the Silence of the Lamps becomes
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: more difficult to see, and I would I'm not going
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: to talk about the ending like we did about but
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: if if you've not watched The Silence of the Lamps,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: definitely watch it. It's if you if you lovest thrillers,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: it's it's fantastic.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: It's one of the it's actually one of the few
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: horror films. They called it a horror even though it's
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: a thriller. But they called it a thriller, but it's
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: really kind of a horror.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: It's it's a thriller horror. I mean, it's it's it's both.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: But I won the Oscar. It won the Oscar, It
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: won all four big awards that year. I remember it
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: is amazing amazing film. Now where can people find you
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: and you're writing your book all that kind of good stuff.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: Well, they can find me on on our website, which
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: is a screenplay on Limited that's the name of company,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: and I have there is a special link for for
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: your listeners, Yes, which is a link where they can
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: uh find some information about the book that I wrote,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: which is called Screenwriting and Unchained and it's they will
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: be able to download freestample of the book which is
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: the first fifty pages which is most of the first
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: chapter and the introduction where there is an explanation of
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: the method and and so if they like it, they
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: can purchase the book and if they don't like it,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: they save some money.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it and give you the link. I think
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: the link is a screen screenplay unlimited dot com for
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: what slash Indy what is yeah.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'll put that in the show notes as well. Emanuel,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for taking it time, welcome and
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: talking to Thank you very much for inviting me one
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: of thank Emmanuel for coming in and dropping some knowledge
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: bombs on the tribe. Thank you so so much, Emmanuel.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: If you want to get a link to the book
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: or any of the other things that Emanuel has to offer,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: please head over to the show notes at any film
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: muscle dot com forward slash seven seventy and if you
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: have it already, please head over to filmmaking podcast dot com.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: so much for listening to guys. As always, keep that
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe out there,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: and I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: indiefilm hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: F I L M h U S T l E
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: dot com.