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The Best Relationships in History with Eli J. Finkel · Dear Chelsea

0:00
Speaker 1: Hi everybody. Hi, Hi Catherine, Hi, Hi, how are you. Oh?
0:05
Speaker 1: I'm so good today. I'm just I'm feeling cheerful. Yeah,
0:10
Speaker 1: you're always cheerful though, Yeah, those cheerful faces. Oh good. Yeah.
0:15
Speaker 1: I have the opposite resting bitch face. I mean that's okay.
0:18
Speaker 1: I sort of sometimes have resting bitch voice where I
0:20
Speaker 1: sort of like a little bit of vocal fry and
0:22
Speaker 1: like people think I'm being bitchy, but I'm actually not.
0:24
Speaker 1: I'm just like stating a fact. Joe says, I do
0:27
Speaker 1: this thing when people are talking to me that I
0:28
Speaker 1: don't want to be talking to that I have a
0:30
Speaker 1: low grumble where I go, And he says, when people
0:36
Speaker 1: are approaching us or if somebody, if somebody's annoying me,
0:41
Speaker 1: he goes, He'll look at me, goes, honey, I could
0:43
Speaker 1: hear you. And I'm like what, And then I go,
0:49
Speaker 1: can I make a confession? I have heard that noise.
0:57
Speaker 1: In fact, earlier today, you know, we were recording something
1:00
Speaker 1: and there was something that you're trying to say and
1:01
Speaker 1: it kept coming out kind of wrong, and you did
1:03
Speaker 1: you had just sort of a yeah, yeah, I think
1:06
Speaker 1: it's disdained for the circumstances, I find myself and I go,
1:10
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you know, and I'm going to
1:12
Speaker 1: own it. That's part of me being a bit you
1:14
Speaker 1: know what I mean, That's who I am. You know,
1:17
Speaker 1: it's it's a whole brand. Yeah, one side, bitch, one side,
1:20
Speaker 1: sunny side up. Well, I have an interesting update from
1:23
Speaker 1: our Dex episode. You guys asked about fentanyl in cocaine. Yeah,
1:30
Speaker 1: you know, we may never know, but here is a
1:32
Speaker 1: theory that one of our callers wrote in with. She says, Hi, Chelsea,
1:36
Speaker 1: I had the same question as you and Dex about
1:39
Speaker 1: why fentanyl is ending up in people's coke. My former
1:42
Speaker 1: heroin Slash cocaine addict boyfriend explained that when dealers cut
1:47
Speaker 1: fentanyl into the coke, it balances it out a little,
1:50
Speaker 1: so you're able to do more of the coke without
1:52
Speaker 1: getting too anxious. It gives more of a euphoric effect,
1:56
Speaker 1: so it makes you want to do more of it
1:58
Speaker 1: and call them quicker for another eight ball cute huh ps.
2:01
Speaker 1: In case you're wondering, he's been sober three years of
2:04
Speaker 1: this January ja. Yeah, well that makes sense until you
2:08
Speaker 1: find out that fentanelle kills people, and then you're losing customers.
2:13
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean it's not great. It's a great
2:17
Speaker 1: idea for the beginning, but then when you find out
2:19
Speaker 1: the effect, then you have to like, why would you
2:22
Speaker 1: want to kill your own cocaine customers, right, or they're
2:25
Speaker 1: not good for business exactly, Or then you can do
2:27
Speaker 1: more coke, but then like you can also overdose on
2:30
Speaker 1: that and die. You know, It's just it's not good. Yeah,
2:35
Speaker 1: Fenton al needs to get fuck careful out there. Yeah,
2:39
Speaker 1: be careful out there. Don't too cocaine anyway, Coke is
2:41
Speaker 1: out of style. Yeah. Yeah, we have a professional on
2:45
Speaker 1: the show again. This is a fun new thing we're doing.
2:51
Speaker 1: I like every once in a while to throw in
2:54
Speaker 1: somebody with a degree or some background in psychotherapy or expertise,
3:00
Speaker 1: since the two of us are just bouncing off of
3:02
Speaker 1: what we've read and absorbed through other people. Although we've
3:06
Speaker 1: been doing a pretty good job, a lot of our
3:07
Speaker 1: patients are thriving. Yeah. Yeah, So we have a great
3:10
Speaker 1: guest today. He's a social psychology professor who studies romantic
3:14
Speaker 1: relationships meaning initial attraction, marital dynamics, shared goal, per suit,
3:20
Speaker 1: and he's the author of the best selling book The
3:23
Speaker 1: All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work. And
3:27
Speaker 1: he's a professor at Northwestern University. This is perfect timing
3:31
Speaker 1: since I'm probably gonna end up getting married. Oh hi, Eli,
3:35
Speaker 1: how are you good? How are you very well? I'm
3:39
Speaker 1: loving life. How about yourself? I mean, yeah, things are
3:42
Speaker 1: going you know, other than the state of the world,
3:44
Speaker 1: but that's always a pain in the ass, right, Yeah,
3:47
Speaker 1: we've got some state of the world issues, state of
3:49
Speaker 1: the world issues. Personally, things are going fine for me,
3:52
Speaker 1: actually better than fine, but so I'm doing well. To
3:55
Speaker 1: answer your question more succinctly, I recommended your book to
3:58
Speaker 1: Chelsea because she's newly in love and she's in a
4:01
Speaker 1: really solid, wonderful relationship with a great guy. And when
4:05
Speaker 1: I read your book a couple of years ago, I
4:07
Speaker 1: was just I have to say, one of the reasons
4:09
Speaker 1: that I liked it is it pointed out a lot
4:11
Speaker 1: of things that like I'm doing right in my relationship,
4:13
Speaker 1: which felt very good for like sort of a self
4:16
Speaker 1: healthy type of book. I feel like normally when you
4:19
Speaker 1: read books like that, you're like, Okay, here's what I'm
4:21
Speaker 1: doing wrong, and here's what I'm doing wrong, and here's
4:22
Speaker 1: what's wrong. I've recommended it to so many people. I
4:25
Speaker 1: feel like your book The All or Nothing Marriage is
4:27
Speaker 1: just a perfect introduction to Here is what a good
4:32
Speaker 1: relationship looks like. It can actually look like a lot
4:34
Speaker 1: of different things, but here are some of the things
4:37
Speaker 1: that you have to either have or get rid of
4:40
Speaker 1: in your relationship to make it last. Yeah, And what
4:44
Speaker 1: I really appreciated about the book, it's called The All
4:47
Speaker 1: or Nothing Marriage, How the best marriages work. What I
4:49
Speaker 1: really appreciated about the book is the historical context that
4:53
Speaker 1: you put it into, what marriages have been over the
4:56
Speaker 1: course of history and what they have become in a
4:58
Speaker 1: more pragmatic modern society. And so that is very helpful
5:03
Speaker 1: to understand what people needed a long time ago versus
5:06
Speaker 1: what people need today. You know, everyone talks about how
5:09
Speaker 1: we're all a lot more touchy feely emotionally in touch
5:13
Speaker 1: with ourselves now more than ever, right, and and how
5:17
Speaker 1: to kind of make that work in today's society, and
5:20
Speaker 1: what and all the with all of the demands. You know,
5:23
Speaker 1: we're not just sitting here going hunting in the morning
5:26
Speaker 1: at anymore. Because that's what I'm always comparing myself to
5:29
Speaker 1: as a hunter gathering. Right, I'm like, you know what,
5:31
Speaker 1: life's not so bad at least you're not hunting today,
5:34
Speaker 1: So you kind of break that down in a really
5:36
Speaker 1: relatable way, right. I think that is what the point
5:40
Speaker 1: of this book is, is to understand what your expectations
5:44
Speaker 1: are and how to communicate, which is, you know, the
5:48
Speaker 1: bane of everybody's existence. I think communication is can be
5:52
Speaker 1: so hard and such a hurdle, and once people learn
5:54
Speaker 1: how to do it and are able to exercise it
5:57
Speaker 1: more frequently, the results kind of show, right. Yeah, I
6:00
Speaker 1: mean that that is the hope, right, that all of
6:03
Speaker 1: us are born into a certain cultural and historical moment
6:06
Speaker 1: and that just feels like what reality is. Uh. And
6:09
Speaker 1: it's only when we step outside that moment and say, well,
6:11
Speaker 1: how do they used to do it and how do
6:12
Speaker 1: they do it in other countries and other cultures that
6:15
Speaker 1: you start to get perspective on, first of all, the
6:18
Speaker 1: range of the ways people do things, for example, the
6:21
Speaker 1: different ways that marriage functions in different times in different places.
6:24
Speaker 1: But also you can get a novel perspective on your
6:27
Speaker 1: own circumstances and say, look, this is where there's a
6:30
Speaker 1: you know, a flexibility that I might not have otherwise
6:32
Speaker 1: seen an opportunity to make things better that would have
6:35
Speaker 1: been out of reach if I hadn't had this perspective
6:38
Speaker 1: from the outside. And what is your background? How did
6:40
Speaker 1: you come about writing this book. I am a social psychologist.
6:44
Speaker 1: I'm an academic. I'm having a psychology department. I'm having
6:47
Speaker 1: a business school actually, But basically I do research on relationships.
6:52
Speaker 1: And when I say do research, I mean it in
6:54
Speaker 1: the data way. Lots of us have hypotheses or ideas
6:57
Speaker 1: about what makes for a good relationship or a add relationship.
7:00
Speaker 1: But the truth is, very few of us, including most
7:03
Speaker 1: self help writers, put those ideas to any sort of test.
7:06
Speaker 1: All of us have instincts that are wrong, and the
7:08
Speaker 1: only way you can really know is to, you know,
7:11
Speaker 1: to test them in a formal way, which is which
7:13
Speaker 1: is a pretty cool thing. There's this area of research
7:15
Speaker 1: that people don't really know about um called relationship science,
7:17
Speaker 1: where we try to try to use data to test
7:19
Speaker 1: hypotheses about what makes relationships better, what makes them worse?
7:23
Speaker 1: And can you give us some of that info, like,
7:26
Speaker 1: you know, what, what are the most common themes to
7:29
Speaker 1: a marriage that isn't going to make it? And what
7:31
Speaker 1: are the most common ways to improve things. Well, the
7:35
Speaker 1: way I lay it out in the book and They
7:36
Speaker 1: All or Nothing marriage is that our expectations are essential
7:40
Speaker 1: and to somethric we all of us realize that it's
7:42
Speaker 1: not hard to come across advice. Hey stop asking so much,
7:45
Speaker 1: for example, But the story ends up being much more
7:47
Speaker 1: complicated and much more interesting, I think in terms of
7:50
Speaker 1: of what is it that we should look for from
7:52
Speaker 1: our relationship? And and once you have this historical and
7:55
Speaker 1: cultural perspective, you realize the range of things that people
7:59
Speaker 1: do ask for their marriage, things that people don't ask
8:02
Speaker 1: from their marriage. And then and then it puts us
8:04
Speaker 1: in a position to say, well, what's crucial for us?
8:07
Speaker 1: How can we play to our strengths and limit our weaknesses?
8:11
Speaker 1: That is yours mind and ours this particular relationship. Um,
8:15
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that are that are essential
8:17
Speaker 1: and pretty well validated from the data. For example, most
8:21
Speaker 1: of us have a pretty strong need to love and
8:24
Speaker 1: be loved. We simultaneously have a pretty strong need not
8:28
Speaker 1: to feel rejected. And this leads to an interesting tension
8:32
Speaker 1: right that that is, how do I simultaneously get very
8:36
Speaker 1: close and intimate with you while making sure that I'm
8:40
Speaker 1: not vulnerable to paying an exploitation from you. And this
8:43
Speaker 1: is one of the things that's most interesting about our
8:45
Speaker 1: our really intimate relationships is that is that we don't
8:48
Speaker 1: get to maximize both. You can't simultaneously be totally protected
8:52
Speaker 1: and totally intimate, and so you have to, through trust
8:55
Speaker 1: and other things like that, you have to be willing
8:57
Speaker 1: to to calibrate how willing am I to be vulnerable
9:01
Speaker 1: to you? And if the answer is a lot, that
9:04
Speaker 1: means that we're prioritizing closeness and the relationship over self protection.
9:08
Speaker 1: If the answer is no, I'm a little scared and
9:11
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I can be that vulnerable, then
9:12
Speaker 1: we're prioritizing self protection over over the relationship, neither one
9:16
Speaker 1: of which is right or wrong. But until we start
9:18
Speaker 1: thinking that way, we we don't really have a perspective
9:20
Speaker 1: on the choices that we face, in the trade offs
9:23
Speaker 1: that we face. Yeah, because I think that what you're
9:25
Speaker 1: talking about, Like, one of the things in the book
9:27
Speaker 1: that I thought was interesting was making everybody watch those
9:29
Speaker 1: kind of romantic comedy movies and then write their notes
9:32
Speaker 1: on it, like what they liked about it, what they
9:34
Speaker 1: didn't like about it because I think romantic comedy movies
9:37
Speaker 1: are a major factor of why women have expectations that
9:41
Speaker 1: are not mad, you know what I mean. I mean, Luckily,
9:45
Speaker 1: I'm in a relationship with somebody who has succeeded any
9:47
Speaker 1: expectations I could have ever had for any man. I mean,
9:50
Speaker 1: I didn't even think this was possible, so I but
9:53
Speaker 1: I know that I when I ever I had an experience.
9:57
Speaker 1: You know, even the wedding planner with Jennifer Lopez, are
10:00
Speaker 1: remember going, what the funk is this ship? Seriously? You know,
10:04
Speaker 1: like I mean, the formulaic aspect of a movie and
10:08
Speaker 1: and and watching that and expecting that that to happen
10:11
Speaker 1: is just so unrealistic because every individual has their own
10:15
Speaker 1: life history, their own personal demons, their own personal trauma,
10:19
Speaker 1: and then you have to join forces with another person
10:21
Speaker 1: and try to be you have to be so healthy,
10:25
Speaker 1: you know, in my experience, you have to be so
10:27
Speaker 1: healthy to be able to be in a relationship. Like
10:29
Speaker 1: until I got healthy, I was useless. I could not
10:32
Speaker 1: be in a relationship because I have to understand that
10:34
Speaker 1: I have to give, and that I have to shut
10:37
Speaker 1: up when I want to say something, and that I
10:39
Speaker 1: have to be quiet, you know, in certain times, and
10:42
Speaker 1: to choose moments for certain conversations. And without therapy I
10:46
Speaker 1: would have I didn't know how to do any of
10:48
Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, I mean a couple of interesting things there.
10:51
Speaker 1: First of all, one of the things that from my perspective,
10:54
Speaker 1: is so striking about that genre, the rom com, is that,
10:58
Speaker 1: at least traditionally, it ends with the wedding or maybe
11:01
Speaker 1: even the proposal, and from my perspective, you're just getting
11:04
Speaker 1: started right Like it's like, well, they met and it
11:08
Speaker 1: didn't go well, and they had to resolve the conflicts
11:10
Speaker 1: and then they sort of fell in love and he
11:12
Speaker 1: said will you and she said I do, and then
11:14
Speaker 1: we cut to the credits. It's like, my god, no,
11:17
Speaker 1: wonder we suck at at at actually living a year
11:23
Speaker 1: marriage with somebody, because it's it's like not considered part
11:25
Speaker 1: of the romance or part of the story. There's like
11:27
Speaker 1: and they all lived happily ever after what they get
11:30
Speaker 1: to the proposal and everything from there is sort of
11:33
Speaker 1: just is just epilog. A second thing that that is
11:36
Speaker 1: so interesting about what you just said about about the
11:39
Speaker 1: importance of you know, really getting good with yourself, going
11:43
Speaker 1: to therapy, discovering who you are, maybe cultivating a stronger
11:47
Speaker 1: sense of self esteem and so forth. That is indeed crucial.
11:50
Speaker 1: That's that's a really essential part of what makes for
11:53
Speaker 1: a good marriage. One of the things that I found
11:56
Speaker 1: so interesting when I was working on my my marriage
11:58
Speaker 1: book is that that didn't used to be the case, right, Like,
12:02
Speaker 1: you don't have to go that far back before, Like
12:06
Speaker 1: nobody married for these sorts of reasons. You know, I'm
12:10
Speaker 1: marrying you because you know, you make me feel psychologically whole,
12:13
Speaker 1: or or you're my best friend. I mean, you go
12:16
Speaker 1: back literally just two hundred years in this country, and uh,
12:20
Speaker 1: you know, life was way too precarious for that. It
12:22
Speaker 1: would have been an extreme luxury to feel like, I
12:25
Speaker 1: don't know, you make me, you know, become my ideal
12:28
Speaker 1: self and and I'm like a whole person, and therefore
12:31
Speaker 1: it can connect to you in the in this this
12:33
Speaker 1: intensive emotional way. Literally it used to be about food, clothing,
12:37
Speaker 1: and shelter, to be about like how do we not
12:39
Speaker 1: freeze in the wintertime and make sure there's enough to
12:41
Speaker 1: eat um throughout the you know, the difficult months. And
12:45
Speaker 1: what's what's so interesting I think about these changes, right
12:48
Speaker 1: like I'm not just talking about an abstraction. I'm not
12:51
Speaker 1: just saying like two years ago, isn't that a fun fact?
12:54
Speaker 1: The changes are crucial because as we think about the
12:58
Speaker 1: way that marriage used to be and way it is now,
13:01
Speaker 1: we can think, well, okay, well what opportunities does it
13:03
Speaker 1: afford today that it didn't used to afford? And what
13:05
Speaker 1: challenges does it bring today that it didn't used to bring.
13:09
Speaker 1: And you're talking, Chelsea, it sounds like you, you know,
13:11
Speaker 1: I don't know if you believe in soul mates or whatever,
13:13
Speaker 1: but it sounds like you've met somebody who's lighting your
13:15
Speaker 1: fire and all the dimensions, somebody that feels profoundly compatible
13:18
Speaker 1: with you. And you know, those of us who live
13:21
Speaker 1: in the current climate, live in one America and are
13:24
Speaker 1: able to find that are indeed able to have a
13:27
Speaker 1: level of marital connection that was out of reach not
13:30
Speaker 1: only two hundred years ago, but even like nine fifty
13:33
Speaker 1: right where people just weren't looking for this sort of
13:36
Speaker 1: stuff from their marriage. So so that's the positive side.
13:38
Speaker 1: On the negative side, these expectations aren't easy to meet.
13:42
Speaker 1: And you know, if if you, Chelsea, are bringing the
13:45
Speaker 1: assumption to your relationship and you have to correct me
13:47
Speaker 1: if I have this wrong. But but if you're bringing
13:49
Speaker 1: the assumption that I need to be my full, whole
13:51
Speaker 1: self and I need him to be his whole, full self,
13:53
Speaker 1: so it's two whole full selves connecting and really cultivating
13:57
Speaker 1: the best in each other, which I think a lot
13:58
Speaker 1: of people, a lot of us these days, are are
14:00
Speaker 1: looking for. It's a big ask, and a lot of
14:03
Speaker 1: relationships that would have been totally fine, not only two
14:06
Speaker 1: years ago, but I don't know fifty like would have
14:08
Speaker 1: been totally fine now disappoint us. And that really is
14:11
Speaker 1: the thesis of the all or nothing marriage. That's the
14:13
Speaker 1: thesis of my book, that that we've arrived at a
14:16
Speaker 1: moment in time where the average marriage is worse than
14:21
Speaker 1: in earlier eras because it's harder to meet the needs
14:23
Speaker 1: in the expectations that we're bringing to it these days.
14:27
Speaker 1: But the best marriages today are better than the best
14:29
Speaker 1: marriages of earlier eras. And in fact, i'm a little
14:32
Speaker 1: beyond the data here, but but my perception, based on
14:35
Speaker 1: the evidence is probably the best marriages today are are
14:38
Speaker 1: the best marriages that the world has ever known. That's
14:42
Speaker 1: so interesting to me that you say that and reading
14:46
Speaker 1: your book, like it almost takes a little bit of
14:48
Speaker 1: pressure off a marriage to think, you know, this person
14:51
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like the best sexual partner I've
14:54
Speaker 1: ever had, and the best emotional partner I've ever had,
14:57
Speaker 1: and an intellectual equal and all these other things and
15:00
Speaker 1: my whole community. And you talk a lot about how
15:04
Speaker 1: for EON's we had the whole village would fulfill most
15:07
Speaker 1: of those roles, and the partner was just the partner
15:10
Speaker 1: of the person who raised children with and you kept
15:11
Speaker 1: each other from starving. But to come to a place
15:14
Speaker 1: where you realize, like, oh, my partner might fill four
15:18
Speaker 1: of those roles and not ten, or they might fill
15:21
Speaker 1: nine of those roles and not ten, and like that's okay.
15:25
Speaker 1: And maybe if I do just need to vent and
15:27
Speaker 1: he's not ready for me to just vent, he wants
15:29
Speaker 1: to give me advice. Maybe I take that to my girlfriends,
15:31
Speaker 1: you know, who know that I just need to vent
15:33
Speaker 1: or whatever role that person might be lacking for you.
15:36
Speaker 1: It's not that the whole relationship is a wash. It's
15:39
Speaker 1: just that this one need that I have might need
15:42
Speaker 1: to be met elsewhere. Yeah, I think that is one
15:45
Speaker 1: of the essential things that we're kind of losing track
15:51
Speaker 1: of as a culture. It didn't used to be the
15:53
Speaker 1: case that your spouse was supposed to be your best
15:56
Speaker 1: friend and your source of primary emotional fulfillment, the person
16:00
Speaker 1: who really helped you with your spiritual quests. There were
16:04
Speaker 1: certain circumscribed roles that were played by different people in
16:09
Speaker 1: your community and in the you know, through throughout the
16:13
Speaker 1: course of u S history in particular, but especially in
16:16
Speaker 1: the current era. We all write our own vows, our
16:20
Speaker 1: own wedding vows. Now it's it's too much of an
16:23
Speaker 1: authentic moment for us to take the stuff off the
16:25
Speaker 1: shelf and use that stuff. And then I go to
16:27
Speaker 1: a lot of weddings. You probably do too, and you
16:29
Speaker 1: can listen to the vows, and the vows are things
16:32
Speaker 1: like I want to marry you because you're my best friend.
16:34
Speaker 1: I want to marry you because again, you know, you
16:37
Speaker 1: bring out the best in me. And and you go
16:39
Speaker 1: down this this rather long list of social emotional, psychological
16:46
Speaker 1: reasons why we marry these days. And if I sound
16:50
Speaker 1: like I'm on the verge of becoming a scold and
16:52
Speaker 1: telling everybody to stop doing that, no, I just want
16:54
Speaker 1: everyone to realize that it doesn't have to be this way,
16:57
Speaker 1: and it didn't used to be this way. We've set
16:59
Speaker 1: up a particularly idiosyncratic system. And so again, as you
17:04
Speaker 1: were saying, Catherine, one of the ideas in the book
17:07
Speaker 1: is not just well, I expect this from my marriage,
17:10
Speaker 1: and I expect that from my marriage, and I expect
17:12
Speaker 1: this other thing from my marriage, but very deliberately and
17:16
Speaker 1: very strategically saying I will not expect this thing from
17:20
Speaker 1: the marriage. I will not expect this other thing from
17:23
Speaker 1: the marriage, because we have this tendency to just pile
17:27
Speaker 1: more and more and more stuff expectations needs on this
17:33
Speaker 1: one relationship. And I'm not saying that always a bad idea.
17:36
Speaker 1: Sometimes the person who is your best friend really is
17:40
Speaker 1: your spouse, and that person also is the best person
17:43
Speaker 1: to be your primary source of emotional support, and that
17:45
Speaker 1: person also is the person with whom you have the
17:47
Speaker 1: most sexual chemistry and down the list, and you know,
17:50
Speaker 1: God bless like that's convenient that he's in your house
17:52
Speaker 1: with you. But there aren't rules, there's no tablets from
17:56
Speaker 1: Mount Sinai that say that that your partner has to
17:59
Speaker 1: be this one person, this spouse has to do all
18:01
Speaker 1: of those things. And so yes, one of the things
18:04
Speaker 1: that that I urge people to do is figure out
18:07
Speaker 1: where is it that we have strengths and really lean
18:10
Speaker 1: into those things. Yeah, yeah, where is it that we
18:13
Speaker 1: come up a bit short? Like we're chronically sort of
18:16
Speaker 1: bickering about some something or I'm chronically disappointed in you
18:20
Speaker 1: and you hurt my feelings about some things. It might
18:22
Speaker 1: be so essential for you that you have to work
18:24
Speaker 1: it through with this person, and the book talks about
18:27
Speaker 1: that too, But maybe it's something you can let go
18:29
Speaker 1: of and say, you know what, every time I want
18:32
Speaker 1: to talk about work, he gets kind of cranky with me.
18:34
Speaker 1: Do I really need to talk to him about work?
18:36
Speaker 1: And you realize, you know what, I don't. I have
18:38
Speaker 1: plenty of people to talk to about them. Interesting, Yeah,
18:41
Speaker 1: that seems like a common problem. Well, we want to
18:43
Speaker 1: put you to work right away because we have a
18:45
Speaker 1: professional here as opposed to the two of us who
18:48
Speaker 1: are constantly dolling out advice with no credentials whatsoever. Accept
18:52
Speaker 1: my own therapy experience, which I take very seriously. So
18:56
Speaker 1: we want we have callers call in and we're gonna
18:58
Speaker 1: have you kind of you know, help everybody, so that
19:01
Speaker 1: we have some legitimacy thank you for lending it to us. Yeah,
19:04
Speaker 1: and before we get to our collars, we'll take a
19:07
Speaker 1: quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, We're gonna
19:09
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we're back, and we're back. So,
19:18
Speaker 1: Chelsea and Eli, our first question comes from Charmagne. Charmagne says,
19:23
Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea, I've been married to my husband for nearly
19:26
Speaker 1: fifteen years, and we've gotten into a rut with two
19:29
Speaker 1: young kids, busy jobs, and COVID killing our social life.
19:32
Speaker 1: I'm always looking for ways that we can spark the
19:35
Speaker 1: romance and do something active. Our nights are mostly spent
19:38
Speaker 1: in bed, watching TV and scrolling through our phones. How
19:43
Speaker 1: common is that we're too fucking young and cool to
19:46
Speaker 1: be acting like a couple of geriatrics. Help Charmaginne Okay, Eli,
19:50
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you go first. Obviously, you know that
19:53
Speaker 1: is such a sort of classic example, and assuming I'm
19:56
Speaker 1: reading the subtext properly, it sounds like this is generally
19:59
Speaker 1: a strong, loving marriage that's just as as the as
20:02
Speaker 1: Charmaine says, just in a rut. And one of the
20:04
Speaker 1: things that's cool about this this line of research. I
20:07
Speaker 1: was talking about this area of work relationship sciences is
20:10
Speaker 1: we can actually do a better job than even five
20:13
Speaker 1: or ten years ago at at saying not only general
20:16
Speaker 1: things like Wow, I'll try a date night, but being
20:19
Speaker 1: specific about which sorts of activities together are likely to
20:22
Speaker 1: cultivate what sorts of connections and and so one of
20:25
Speaker 1: my favorite studies is one that that randomly assigns people
20:29
Speaker 1: to do some additional tasks, so there's a control condition
20:31
Speaker 1: that they don't do anything. There's one condition, one of
20:33
Speaker 1: the two intervention conditions has people do comfortable activities and charmaine.
20:38
Speaker 1: It sounds like you have totally nailed it Netflix and chill,
20:40
Speaker 1: but perhaps not with the hashtag and chill component to it.
20:43
Speaker 1: And then the third one is do novel and exciting activities,
20:46
Speaker 1: that is, things that you don't normally do. Turns out
20:48
Speaker 1: that both of those interventions, relative to people who are
20:51
Speaker 1: in the control condition, make people feel closer to each other.
20:54
Speaker 1: If you actually report like how connected do you feel
20:57
Speaker 1: to your partner? Doesn't really matter if you're doing Netflix
21:01
Speaker 1: or you know, reruns of Friends, or you're going ballroom dancing,
21:04
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But for hotness, like if the if
21:07
Speaker 1: the thing that you're really trying to cultivate. Is this
21:09
Speaker 1: sense of fire that maybe you had fifteen years ago
21:12
Speaker 1: and is waning a little bit, not because of any
21:14
Speaker 1: sort of severe conflict, but maybe something closer to boredom.
21:18
Speaker 1: It's really that other type. It's not watching friends, it's
21:21
Speaker 1: trying something new and different that tends to cultivate a
21:25
Speaker 1: hotter sense of connection with the partner. So do you
21:27
Speaker 1: have any examples of what that might be, like, what
21:30
Speaker 1: like taking a cooking class at home? You know, I
21:33
Speaker 1: feel like the phones are such a We all fall
21:35
Speaker 1: into that grossness of being on our phones at the
21:39
Speaker 1: end of the night. And I think it's a really
21:40
Speaker 1: good rule to incorporate into anyone's life to just designate
21:44
Speaker 1: a period of time that you are not on your phones,
21:47
Speaker 1: because it also feels lame when you're on your phone
21:50
Speaker 1: in bed, even when you're watching TV. It's like I
21:52
Speaker 1: remember reading, like, if you're walking down the street and
21:54
Speaker 1: you're on your phone, you're doing both of those things poorly.
21:57
Speaker 1: So if you're gonna be on your phone, it's an
21:58
Speaker 1: allocated amount of time that you're like, Okay, I'm gonna
22:01
Speaker 1: be on my phone. Joe and I do this all
22:02
Speaker 1: the time. I'm like I'm gonna be on my phone
22:03
Speaker 1: for the next twenty minutes. He's like, okay, I'll do
22:05
Speaker 1: the same thing. And when we're in bed together, we're
22:07
Speaker 1: never on our phones unless we're you know, watching a
22:09
Speaker 1: funny video or something like that. Like we we really
22:12
Speaker 1: try not to. So it's just bad habits too. It's like, hey, honey,
22:17
Speaker 1: you and me, when we're in bed together, we're gonna
22:19
Speaker 1: be in bed together. We're not going to have our
22:20
Speaker 1: phones on for an hour, an hour and a half,
22:22
Speaker 1: two hours at night. Nothing is that important. You don't
22:25
Speaker 1: need to be scrolling through TikTok or Instagram for those
22:27
Speaker 1: two hours. You know, whatever you're looking for will be
22:29
Speaker 1: there in the morning. And it is brain fry when
22:32
Speaker 1: we do that, So why not redirect that brain fry
22:35
Speaker 1: towards each other and just at least be snuggling or
22:38
Speaker 1: you know, do something online together, play a game online together,
22:43
Speaker 1: or get out of board game and play it together.
22:46
Speaker 1: You know, even simple activities like watching TV can be
22:48
Speaker 1: much more meaningful if you both don't have phones in
22:50
Speaker 1: your hand. Yeah, yeah, I mean, there is something diabolical
22:54
Speaker 1: about the size of the phone. It's it's definitely like
22:56
Speaker 1: for a single individual, not necessarily romantically on a tech us,
23:00
Speaker 1: but for one pair of eyes. Chelsea, I'm curious, how
23:02
Speaker 1: long have you been with this new person. I've been
23:04
Speaker 1: with him since June, like five months, I think, But
23:08
Speaker 1: I've known him for a long time. He's an old
23:10
Speaker 1: friend of mine, so we've been friends for like fifteen
23:12
Speaker 1: years and we just got romantically together in August. I
23:17
Speaker 1: love it. I mean, I think what our you know,
23:19
Speaker 1: what our first caller would say was five months in,
23:22
Speaker 1: like why you were talking about right? Right? Right? And
23:25
Speaker 1: I think she's she's actually right. And I think this
23:28
Speaker 1: is one of the things that we start to lament
23:30
Speaker 1: as our relationships progress. Is like, at first, we really
23:34
Speaker 1: are thinking about each other all the time, and nobody
23:38
Speaker 1: needs any sort of prompting or anything put on the
23:41
Speaker 1: schedule to you know, have some sexy time together. And
23:44
Speaker 1: then as the relationship gets more let's just say, has
23:48
Speaker 1: existed longer, it tends to be harder. Right, Like, there's
23:51
Speaker 1: there's a couple of things that that really favor hotness
23:54
Speaker 1: in the early stages of a relationship. One is novelty
23:57
Speaker 1: and the others. It looks like there's a couple of
23:58
Speaker 1: different forms of love that go into these meaningful long
24:02
Speaker 1: term relationships. One is something that you might call infatuation
24:04
Speaker 1: or something like that, and it seems to be a
24:06
Speaker 1: fundamentally different like set of neural systems, like a different
24:10
Speaker 1: set of processes in the brain. And during that phase
24:13
Speaker 1: we often think, oh, I would never be with anybody
24:15
Speaker 1: else because all I can think about is you and
24:17
Speaker 1: and it's this sort of obsessive passionate things. Sometimes it
24:20
Speaker 1: almost feels like an obsessive compulsive disorder. I literally can't
24:23
Speaker 1: stop thinking about you, and I'm chronically checking to see
24:26
Speaker 1: if you texted back. But there's a second type that's
24:28
Speaker 1: slower to emerge, right, So if we call that something
24:31
Speaker 1: like infatuation, there's a second type that's slower to emerge
24:34
Speaker 1: but really is like the long term blue and we
24:36
Speaker 1: can call it attachment or something like that. And if
24:38
Speaker 1: you look at the the ratio of infatuation to attachment
24:43
Speaker 1: and say five months into a relationship versus a fifteen
24:46
Speaker 1: years into the relationship on average, you see a large difference.
24:49
Speaker 1: And this will surprise literally none of your listeners that
24:52
Speaker 1: the infatuation stuff is very intensive at first, and then
24:56
Speaker 1: the sort of more warm, friendly sort of stuff really
25:00
Speaker 1: builds more gradually over time. And so the real question
25:03
Speaker 1: is is not like, how can we have a really
25:05
Speaker 1: hot relationship six for six months? It's how can we
25:08
Speaker 1: have a really hot relationship for sixty years? And that
25:10
Speaker 1: is again a different set of challenges that probably requires
25:14
Speaker 1: that we make a real effort, whereas having a hot
25:16
Speaker 1: relationship for six months, like everything's hot in the first
25:19
Speaker 1: six months, right, Yeah, And something you talk about in
25:21
Speaker 1: your book is reminding each other and reminding yourself about
25:25
Speaker 1: what what caused you to fall in love with this person,
25:28
Speaker 1: going back to the basics, going back to the O
25:30
Speaker 1: G reason why you guys got together, you know, thinking
25:33
Speaker 1: about those moments, thinking about the things they did that
25:36
Speaker 1: made you fall in love with them. And that is
25:38
Speaker 1: a powerful tool for anybody to remember, whether you're in
25:41
Speaker 1: a romantic relationship or a friendship, whenever your hit hit
25:44
Speaker 1: a tough patch, it's important to remind yourself why you
25:46
Speaker 1: came together with this person in the first place. And
25:49
Speaker 1: that's a good aphrodisiac that I think a lot of
25:52
Speaker 1: people benefit from remembering why why do you love this person?
25:57
Speaker 1: What are the things that he did to make you
25:58
Speaker 1: feel special? That things that turned you on about him?
26:02
Speaker 1: What were the things that he did that made you
26:03
Speaker 1: feel like he was sexy and he you wanted him,
26:06
Speaker 1: you know, as your husband, as the father of your children,
26:09
Speaker 1: all of those things. You know. It's interesting this like
26:14
Speaker 1: reflecting back part is especially interesting because it underscores something
26:19
Speaker 1: kind of wild about the idea of marriage as a
26:23
Speaker 1: as a means of deep psychological and emotional and sexual connection,
26:27
Speaker 1: right like if it was a sacrament before God, or
26:30
Speaker 1: let's just kind of do it and then we'll run
26:32
Speaker 1: the household or something that would be different. But for
26:34
Speaker 1: the sorts of things we're looking for. It's like, you know,
26:36
Speaker 1: if you were to take this sort of I don't
26:38
Speaker 1: know default example of like well, I don't know. We
26:40
Speaker 1: met when we were twenty eight and that seemed like
26:42
Speaker 1: the right time, and then we went to Europe and
26:45
Speaker 1: like the sex in Paris, I'll never forget it, and
26:48
Speaker 1: I just can't stop thinking about him. And it was
26:50
Speaker 1: a couple of years and he proposed and I was thrilled,
26:52
Speaker 1: and we got married. All totally reasonable. I feel no
26:55
Speaker 1: judgment of any of that stuff. But how representative of
26:59
Speaker 1: your hut your life together were those two three years
27:02
Speaker 1: that you used to get to know each other, right,
27:04
Speaker 1: like what we traveled around Europe and hot text compariss
27:08
Speaker 1: Like sure, that's like a little bit of what a
27:11
Speaker 1: long term marriages, especially if you're considering having kids. Right,
27:14
Speaker 1: It's like, I don't know, Like then suddenly I'm involved
27:16
Speaker 1: in like imposing discipline on racalcitrent little people and like
27:20
Speaker 1: in in Sometimes it's like, well, the things that I
27:22
Speaker 1: really liked about you don't emerge as often. And so
27:26
Speaker 1: if you find, like, as I think back about what
27:28
Speaker 1: was so nice about us when we first met, it's like,
27:32
Speaker 1: to some degree we can try to get back into
27:33
Speaker 1: those habits. To some degree, it's like, well, our lives
27:36
Speaker 1: are different now. And again here I think your first
27:38
Speaker 1: caller had a really good insight, which was, well, it's COVID,
27:42
Speaker 1: we've got young kids at home, we're watching Netflix and
27:44
Speaker 1: so forth. It's like, you know what you found exciting
27:46
Speaker 1: about that guy when you first met him, how he
27:48
Speaker 1: charmed people at the bar, and so a lot of
27:51
Speaker 1: it is for relationships that are generally solid but kind
27:54
Speaker 1: of in a rut. It's breaking out of that rut
27:56
Speaker 1: in a way that you can find that person, like
27:59
Speaker 1: where you know he's covered in spit up. Fifteen years
28:01
Speaker 1: have spit up on that guy. Right, it's like, where
28:04
Speaker 1: do we find that person who was playful and naughty
28:07
Speaker 1: and irreverent and and again it's not impossible to do,
28:10
Speaker 1: but it is a deliberate effort at that stage of
28:12
Speaker 1: a relationship. It's also important to find that about yourself, right,
28:15
Speaker 1: to find your kernel of truth you're real, like standing
28:18
Speaker 1: in your own power, knowing who you are because many times,
28:22
Speaker 1: and especially I know, I can only imagine with people
28:24
Speaker 1: having children that that's what they lose, the person that
28:27
Speaker 1: they used to be. So, you know, to know that
28:29
Speaker 1: that person isn't gone, that that person has shifted, you know,
28:33
Speaker 1: and to kind of remind yourself of the playfulness that
28:36
Speaker 1: we all had, you know, or people who with children
28:38
Speaker 1: had before the children came along. Yeah, one of the
28:42
Speaker 1: you know, if I had a magic wand and could
28:45
Speaker 1: wave it and change the relationships of America or something
28:48
Speaker 1: like that the long term ones, One of the things
28:51
Speaker 1: I would wish for is more play. I don't necessarily
28:53
Speaker 1: mean hashtag play or quotations play, but that too. But
28:58
Speaker 1: it's easy to get into habits. And again, some habits
29:02
Speaker 1: are good, Some are bad, but it's like, Okay, this
29:04
Speaker 1: is the time I wake up, and then I see
29:05
Speaker 1: the kids off and that's this process, and then it's
29:07
Speaker 1: another process. It's like, you know, when was the last
29:10
Speaker 1: time we were really naughty? Like when was the last
29:13
Speaker 1: time we were irreverent or just cracked up? And those things.
29:19
Speaker 1: You know, life is busy, especially you have a two
29:22
Speaker 1: career couple, and and you're chronically especially with young kids. Right, Like,
29:25
Speaker 1: I could see why there's like extended periods of time,
29:28
Speaker 1: possibly a decade or something where it's like, I don't know,
29:31
Speaker 1: it just felt so chaotic, and in the meantime, did
29:33
Speaker 1: we really attend to what is really, at least for
29:38
Speaker 1: most of us, the organizing relationship, the most central relationship
29:42
Speaker 1: in our life, and and sometimes we're a little bit
29:45
Speaker 1: neglectful of it in a way that's benign and mild
29:49
Speaker 1: for each individual day, but over the course of a
29:52
Speaker 1: thousand days or five thousand days, end up taking a
29:55
Speaker 1: real toll. And so yeah, I would love it if
29:58
Speaker 1: I could break people out of their routines in a
30:01
Speaker 1: way that was naughty, irreverent, playful, childlike in a way,
30:04
Speaker 1: but perhaps with sex. I think Joe has a lot
30:07
Speaker 1: of those qualities. Um My husband also like he's just
30:10
Speaker 1: constantly being like silly. He makes me laugh. And it
30:13
Speaker 1: was a couple of years ago that I had to
30:14
Speaker 1: make a really conscious choice when he'll do a thing
30:17
Speaker 1: sometimes where he tries to make me laugh if we're
30:19
Speaker 1: sort of starting an argument or starting to disagree, and
30:22
Speaker 1: I used to just be like, well, I'm not gonna like,
30:25
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna buy into that. And I just came
30:27
Speaker 1: to a point a few years ago where I'm like,
30:29
Speaker 1: guess what, life is a lot more fun if you
30:31
Speaker 1: just laugh, and then you guys get back into normal
30:33
Speaker 1: if you just giggle, you like, you know, give him
30:36
Speaker 1: the win, right right right. I think that's a that's
30:40
Speaker 1: a really important thing. It's like getting to a point
30:43
Speaker 1: where you can give it away, like you give the
30:44
Speaker 1: person to win. You're like, let them take this, because
30:47
Speaker 1: then you're not operating out of ego. And that's the
30:50
Speaker 1: biggest problem that we all kind of stumble on is
30:52
Speaker 1: our own pride, which is pointless and that kind of dynamic. Well,
30:57
Speaker 1: our next caller is is Caitlin. Caitlin is in Seattle,
31:04
Speaker 1: and she says, Dear Chelsea, my name is Caitlin, and
31:07
Speaker 1: I'm looking for some advice and a ray of hope
31:09
Speaker 1: from you and the team. Last week, I broke up
31:12
Speaker 1: with my loving and dependable boyfriend of one and a
31:15
Speaker 1: half years, all because of this tiny feeling in my gut.
31:18
Speaker 1: He wasn't the one. I tried so hard to make
31:21
Speaker 1: the unsurreness go away and just couldn't, even though he
31:23
Speaker 1: was completely wonderful and the partner anyone would want. I
31:27
Speaker 1: found myself forced to reckon with the decision I've made,
31:30
Speaker 1: and I'm constantly wondering if something better is actually out there.
31:33
Speaker 1: I miss him so much and I'm so sad at
31:36
Speaker 1: the pain I've caused us both. I'm scared I made
31:38
Speaker 1: the wrong decision and that I may never find love again.
31:41
Speaker 1: Any advice for staying the course and letting go of
31:44
Speaker 1: fear of the unknown? I feel overwhelmed that I may
31:46
Speaker 1: never find happiness again. Caitlin, Hi, Caitlin, Hi, Chelsea, Hi.
31:53
Speaker 1: This is Eli Finkel. Hi. Eli. He's a relationship scientist.
31:58
Speaker 1: I need Eli in my life. Yeah, and you do.
32:00
Speaker 1: It's perfect timing, And you know Katherine right. You guys corresponded. Well,
32:06
Speaker 1: I'm glad you called in and I'm glad to talk
32:08
Speaker 1: to you. So tell us when did this happen? So
32:11
Speaker 1: this happened about We're going on three weeks now, so
32:14
Speaker 1: this is pretty recent. Okay, So that's natural. All of
32:17
Speaker 1: your feelings are totally natural. I would say, I'm gonna
32:20
Speaker 1: let Eli weigh in. I would say, though, trusting your
32:24
Speaker 1: instinct is a very very important thing for women to do,
32:28
Speaker 1: especially moreover I think than anyone, because women have such
32:31
Speaker 1: a habit of ignoring our instincts. So I would say
32:35
Speaker 1: that trusting your instinct is the number one thing that
32:38
Speaker 1: you can do for yourself to be an empowered person.
32:41
Speaker 1: And you did that, and all of these feelings that
32:44
Speaker 1: you're having come with that decision, you know, missing somebody
32:47
Speaker 1: second guessing your decision, wondering what you did, if you
32:50
Speaker 1: did the right thing, And I think that's all natural,
32:53
Speaker 1: and you have to know that, like, you're not experiencing
32:55
Speaker 1: these feelings as a result of making a wrong decision
32:59
Speaker 1: per se. This is all comes with that kind of
33:02
Speaker 1: decision making. Once you make a decision to get rid
33:05
Speaker 1: of somebody in your life that there's not necessarily anything
33:07
Speaker 1: wrong with, but it's not a hundred and fifty percent
33:10
Speaker 1: right in your mind, You're signing up for all of
33:13
Speaker 1: these emotions that come along with breaking up, and that's
33:16
Speaker 1: totally normal and natural, and there's no reason to second
33:19
Speaker 1: guess yourself. You know, if you feel like this in
33:21
Speaker 1: a year, then I would say, oh, okay, then maybe
33:23
Speaker 1: you really need to revisit it. But all of this
33:26
Speaker 1: stuff is, these are the things that are going to
33:28
Speaker 1: happen to you emotionally after you make a decision like that, Eli,
33:31
Speaker 1: what do you think? You know? One of the things
33:33
Speaker 1: about really engaging with life, being somebody who's truly alive
33:38
Speaker 1: is that you are in the arena and that you
33:41
Speaker 1: are going to make decisions. This is all of us.
33:43
Speaker 1: I'm not talking just to you, Kaitlin, all of us.
33:46
Speaker 1: We're gonna make decisions. Those decisions are made under uncertainty,
33:49
Speaker 1: and we will have some regrets. And that is like
33:52
Speaker 1: this existentially agonizing state of what it is to be
33:55
Speaker 1: a human being. Um, and so I don't know, like,
33:58
Speaker 1: did you make the right decision? Did you make the
33:59
Speaker 1: wrong decision? I don't know. I do think a lot
34:02
Speaker 1: of Chelsea's analysis is deeply wise in that, you know,
34:07
Speaker 1: the ability to trust oneself is one of the things
34:10
Speaker 1: that has great value. And I also agree that these
34:12
Speaker 1: sorts of issues have been gendered historically. You know, to
34:15
Speaker 1: what degree do we empower women to really trust themselves
34:18
Speaker 1: and and go with their instinct. As a relationship scientist,
34:21
Speaker 1: I can tell you we we ran a study once
34:23
Speaker 1: where this i'll talk an average is now rather than
34:26
Speaker 1: about your specific situation. But we ran a study once
34:28
Speaker 1: where we followed people over time and perhaps uh deviously,
34:32
Speaker 1: these are all people who were in relationships. Every two weeks,
34:34
Speaker 1: they completed a survey and we asked them every two weeks,
34:38
Speaker 1: if you were to break up with your partner in
34:40
Speaker 1: the next two weeks, how happy will you be in
34:42
Speaker 1: two weeks from now? And then we also asked four weeks,
34:45
Speaker 1: eight weeks, and twelve weeks. We were like, how will
34:46
Speaker 1: you be doing? And on average, people were way better
34:51
Speaker 1: off than they themselves had forecasted. Now, I don't know
34:53
Speaker 1: if that's true for you. It sounds like you're having
34:55
Speaker 1: some residual thinking about, you know, some regrets. We don't
34:58
Speaker 1: know what your baseline was, like how and Bill and
35:00
Speaker 1: you felt one we could go versus now. But what
35:02
Speaker 1: we do know is that is that on average, people
35:05
Speaker 1: significantly overestimate how distressed they'll be. We could also figure out,
35:10
Speaker 1: on average, who are the people who got it most wrong,
35:13
Speaker 1: the people who were most in love at the time
35:15
Speaker 1: they made their forecast, Like these are people who think
35:17
Speaker 1: my life will never go on, I will never be
35:20
Speaker 1: whole again. On average, they tend to recuperate reasonably well.
35:25
Speaker 1: I don't know if any of that is resonating with you, Caitlin,
35:28
Speaker 1: but that's a little bit from the perspective of the science. Yeah,
35:31
Speaker 1: I mean it definitely resonates with me. I feel like
35:33
Speaker 1: that's hope in itself, as I just keep wondering like
35:36
Speaker 1: when will it end, like when will this emotional pain end,
35:39
Speaker 1: and forecasting that it won't, and that's really difficult to
35:42
Speaker 1: get past because you're just in the cycle of thinking
35:46
Speaker 1: like I'll always feel this way. So it's nice to
35:48
Speaker 1: know that I might have overestimated it and the timeline
35:51
Speaker 1: I'm expecting is going to be a lot shorter than
35:53
Speaker 1: I can see now, so it is useful to have
35:56
Speaker 1: some data. I'm kind of a solution oriented person, That's
35:59
Speaker 1: why I reached out, so it's nice to know. But also,
36:02
Speaker 1: you know, emotions don't have like a beginning, middle, and
36:05
Speaker 1: an end all the time, you know, so to say
36:07
Speaker 1: to yourself, when is this going to be over? I
36:09
Speaker 1: thought this was gonna be over. I've done that with relationships,
36:12
Speaker 1: Like why am I still feeling this way? It's been this,
36:14
Speaker 1: it's been three months, it's been six months. We don't
36:17
Speaker 1: have an exact gauge about how long it takes us
36:20
Speaker 1: to get over or pass something. You know, we don't
36:23
Speaker 1: have it. And it's not permanent. Nothing is permanent. That's
36:26
Speaker 1: the only thing we know for sure is that nothing
36:28
Speaker 1: is permanent, right. Our emotional states are physical states. Everything
36:32
Speaker 1: is moving and changing, So you're definitely not going to
36:35
Speaker 1: feel like this interminably. It's not going to go on
36:38
Speaker 1: and on and on, you know. And if you get
36:40
Speaker 1: to a point where you feel strongly like you made
36:42
Speaker 1: the wrong decision, then you'll have the opportunity to go
36:45
Speaker 1: back and correct it. And as a woman, I honestly
36:49
Speaker 1: think trusting your gut was the strongest move you could make,
36:51
Speaker 1: and that you're going to be fine and you're going
36:53
Speaker 1: to go through this. It's been three weeks. That's pretty new. Like,
36:57
Speaker 1: I don't get over things in three weeks, and I
37:00
Speaker 1: think that's pretty new. You were there with him for
37:02
Speaker 1: a year and a half. Give it some space out
37:05
Speaker 1: of respect for both of you. Give it some space
37:08
Speaker 1: because you don't want to go back prematurely and be
37:10
Speaker 1: like hey, because that's not nice either are fair to him.
37:13
Speaker 1: So you have to, you know, honor the fact that
37:15
Speaker 1: you did end the relationship and not be playing games
37:18
Speaker 1: and really get your head to a place where you
37:20
Speaker 1: can reflect with some perspective and then no, okay, because
37:25
Speaker 1: you will know you're going to get to a place
37:27
Speaker 1: where you're gonna go thank god I made that decision,
37:30
Speaker 1: or the opposite, you'll get to that place, okay. Are
37:34
Speaker 1: you guys of the mindset that not talking or not
37:37
Speaker 1: communicating in any way is the fastest path to to
37:41
Speaker 1: healing or do you feel like some communication could be okay, Eli,
37:45
Speaker 1: that's a you question. I'm not aware of the data.
37:48
Speaker 1: I can offer my best intuition. I think if the
37:50
Speaker 1: if the goal really is to split, I do think
37:54
Speaker 1: there's something to be said for taking a legitimate breather.
37:57
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean forever. But you see lots of instances.
38:01
Speaker 1: Again here I'm talking less about data, but you see
38:03
Speaker 1: lots of instances where well, we're still each other's best friends,
38:06
Speaker 1: we still sleep together sometimes, and if the goal really
38:10
Speaker 1: is too you know, this wasn't the right fit for
38:13
Speaker 1: me for what I'm looking for in a relationship right now,
38:16
Speaker 1: and therefore I need to get myself to a place
38:18
Speaker 1: where I can move on. Then I see some wisdom
38:22
Speaker 1: in the plan of in the long run, I hope
38:24
Speaker 1: we can be friends, but let's wait until the desire
38:27
Speaker 1: to reach out doesn't come from a place of pain
38:30
Speaker 1: and craving before we reinitiate that. And that time will
38:33
Speaker 1: also give you some space to get into your gut
38:37
Speaker 1: and really check, really see, like in two three weeks,
38:41
Speaker 1: does this still feel right? Whereas if you do still
38:44
Speaker 1: have that connection and that ongoing conversation, it can be
38:47
Speaker 1: a little a little muddier. I will say, like, even
38:50
Speaker 1: since I originally reached out to you, guys, I feel
38:52
Speaker 1: like I've seen an evolution and how I felt what
38:55
Speaker 1: once was this gut feeling like has started to uncover
38:59
Speaker 1: reason and I didn't feel that initially. So I think
39:02
Speaker 1: that is at least some progress of that space you're
39:05
Speaker 1: talking about, I'm uncovering more. It's it starts with a
39:08
Speaker 1: gut instinct but I think that gut is based on something,
39:11
Speaker 1: and when you're so emotionally invested, you can only see that.
39:14
Speaker 1: So I do feel like that's you know, changed even
39:16
Speaker 1: since I reached out. So that's good. You sound like
39:19
Speaker 1: you have your ship together. Also, you know, with the
39:21
Speaker 1: holiday season coming up, just because your background, says ho
39:23
Speaker 1: Ho made me think of it. You know, just know
39:26
Speaker 1: that that those feelings are going to come up, that
39:28
Speaker 1: you're not going to be with each other this year,
39:30
Speaker 1: and be prepared, like manage your expectations, like Eli talks
39:33
Speaker 1: about in his book, you know, manage your expectations for
39:35
Speaker 1: what you're going to be feeling. And know there's gonna
39:37
Speaker 1: be a couple of rough days where you're really gonna
39:39
Speaker 1: miss him and you're gonna want to reach out, and
39:42
Speaker 1: if that's the right thing, maybe it's the right thing.
39:44
Speaker 1: But have enough respect for him and for yourself to
39:48
Speaker 1: stick to the plan because space is the only thing
39:50
Speaker 1: that will give you the information you really need to know.
39:53
Speaker 1: And you're halfway there and you made a strong decision.
39:56
Speaker 1: I respect that a lot, and you're gonna be just fine,
39:59
Speaker 1: And I have no doubt you'll know exactly what to
40:01
Speaker 1: do when the time is right. Thank you. That's nice
40:03
Speaker 1: to hear. Yeah, well, thank you Kitlin. Thank you Caitlin
40:07
Speaker 1: for calling in. And have a great holiday season with
40:09
Speaker 1: your family and enjoy them, you know. Guys. Yeah, I
40:13
Speaker 1: need to lean into that and let us know what
40:15
Speaker 1: happens for sure. Yeah. So nice to meet you guys.
40:19
Speaker 1: Thank you. This is a dream. Take care Okay, bye,
40:24
Speaker 1: Well let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Well,
40:32
Speaker 1: there's one more question. I definitely want to get to
40:34
Speaker 1: with Eli, because this was one of the most surprising
40:37
Speaker 1: things that you talked about in your book. This question
40:40
Speaker 1: comes from Brett. Dear Chelsea. My name is Brett and
40:43
Speaker 1: I'm a twenty six year old female and my partner's
40:45
Speaker 1: name is t J. He's a twenty year old transmail.
40:49
Speaker 1: We've been dating for a year and four months, just
40:51
Speaker 1: moved in together and have recently started having conversations about
40:54
Speaker 1: opening up our relationship. We've always prioritized open communication and
40:59
Speaker 1: our patient and a empathetic with each other. We've been
41:02
Speaker 1: honest about our attraction to other people and think that
41:04
Speaker 1: opening up our relationship would benefit both of us. Do
41:07
Speaker 1: you have any advice about how to open it up?
41:09
Speaker 1: While maintaining our long term relationship. Brett, Chelsea, come on,
41:18
Speaker 1: I'm not carrying my weight on this episode. This is
41:21
Speaker 1: a major decision for couples. But what I appreciate about
41:26
Speaker 1: the question is that this is a couple that is
41:28
Speaker 1: making the decision deliberately. And actually, this is how I
41:30
Speaker 1: felt about the previous caller too, is that it's easy
41:33
Speaker 1: to let life happen passively. It's really living in the
41:37
Speaker 1: arena to make deliberate decisions that you know may well
41:42
Speaker 1: involve regret, but at least the regrets of commission rather
41:44
Speaker 1: than regrets of omission. And I have a fairly long
41:49
Speaker 1: discussion laid in the book about consensual non monogamy, and
41:53
Speaker 1: here I feel obligated to do an aside. This is
41:56
Speaker 1: not infidelity and this is not cheating. There's nothing in
41:59
Speaker 1: my book that's says, yeah, like promise that you'll be
42:01
Speaker 1: faithful and then don't do it. There's nothing in my
42:03
Speaker 1: book like that. But this question of is monogamy the
42:08
Speaker 1: standard default for all relationships? Well it usually is. Is
42:12
Speaker 1: that a good thing? That it's something that almost nobody discusses?
42:16
Speaker 1: I think no. I think on average, the state of
42:19
Speaker 1: our marriage is the state of our relationships. And let's
42:21
Speaker 1: say the US, for example, would be stronger if we
42:25
Speaker 1: had a better lexicon, a better ability to talk openly
42:29
Speaker 1: about our needs and preferences in the sexual and frankly
42:33
Speaker 1: romantic domain. It's it's usually not that you just want
42:36
Speaker 1: to go off for a quickie with someone. It's usually
42:38
Speaker 1: that you want some type of connection with someone else.
42:41
Speaker 1: And so I don't have an opinion about whether any
42:45
Speaker 1: individual person should do it, and I don't know enough
42:48
Speaker 1: about rhet's circumstances to recommend that they open things up
42:53
Speaker 1: or don't. Here, I would like to set myself apart
42:56
Speaker 1: from people who are like advocates or zealots for consensual
42:59
Speaker 1: non men got me. I think many people, perhaps most people,
43:02
Speaker 1: are probably happier in a monogamous relationship. That said, a
43:07
Speaker 1: healthy substantial minority of us would probably be not only
43:13
Speaker 1: happier at the personal level, but have a stronger relationship,
43:17
Speaker 1: a stronger let's call it primary relationship or marriage or
43:20
Speaker 1: whatever we want to say, if there were more openness
43:23
Speaker 1: and open discussion about opening things up. So how does
43:28
Speaker 1: one do that? I'm not an expert on the you know,
43:30
Speaker 1: the conversational gambits, that you need. Just remember that your
43:35
Speaker 1: partner might not start from the same headspace that you're in.
43:38
Speaker 1: You might think, Oh, I love this person so much.
43:40
Speaker 1: But one of the things i'd really and one of
43:42
Speaker 1: the things I'd really like to do to make sure
43:43
Speaker 1: the relationships stay strong is to see other people. And
43:46
Speaker 1: he might hear you say you don't love me and
43:48
Speaker 1: you're not attracted to me, And so the ability to
43:51
Speaker 1: convey that this desire for opening the relationship doesn't come
43:56
Speaker 1: from a place of lack. It doesn't come from a
43:58
Speaker 1: place of void. It does come from a place of
44:01
Speaker 1: need and desire to live big, ambitious, fulfilling lives that
44:06
Speaker 1: are ideally well suited for both of us. And I
44:09
Speaker 1: think that if we had a society where those conversations
44:13
Speaker 1: were easier to have, relationships would be better. Yeah, And
44:18
Speaker 1: I would also recommend um just a book for them
44:21
Speaker 1: to read called Swinging. Oh is there a book a swing?
44:26
Speaker 1: I'm I'm sure there is, but no, I just made
44:28
Speaker 1: that up. Well, this is kind of about that, but
44:30
Speaker 1: it's called The Ethical Slut. I read it just sort
44:33
Speaker 1: of out of curiosity a few years ago, and it's
44:36
Speaker 1: really it really sort of breaks down like how to
44:38
Speaker 1: have certain conversations. But I think as someone who has
44:41
Speaker 1: a couple of friends, you know, a pair of friends
44:44
Speaker 1: who were married and spectacularly blew up their marriage by
44:47
Speaker 1: deciding to open it up without having read one article
44:50
Speaker 1: or one book on the subject, I would say, just
44:54
Speaker 1: research the heck out of it before you go into it,
44:57
Speaker 1: Talk the heck out of it before you go into it,
45:00
Speaker 1: and then like decide if it's right for you, and
45:02
Speaker 1: set super clear boundaries. That's basically like as far as
45:06
Speaker 1: I've read with things, that's the best way you can
45:08
Speaker 1: go about it, and then keep talking once you start. Yeah,
45:11
Speaker 1: I think honesty is the best policy for everything with
45:15
Speaker 1: relation to non monogamy and with having relationships. If you're
45:19
Speaker 1: both on the same page, that's your decision to do
45:23
Speaker 1: that together. But just try not to lie about anything
45:26
Speaker 1: and just be as open and honest as you possibly
45:28
Speaker 1: can for the most successful outcome. I'd like to add
45:32
Speaker 1: one other bit on this that that I just think
45:34
Speaker 1: sort of frames the discussion, not not for any individual
45:37
Speaker 1: caller or any individual person, but but as a society,
45:41
Speaker 1: how are we going to think about monogamy in merit,
45:45
Speaker 1: let's say, and for me in this won't surprise you.
45:48
Speaker 1: At this stage of our conversation. It's really about what
45:51
Speaker 1: are the expectations that you're bringing to the relationship and
45:54
Speaker 1: what is it that's realistic that the relationship can deliver.
45:57
Speaker 1: And I feel about the monogamy side of things, and
46:01
Speaker 1: this I mean both romantic and sexual monogamy, that that
46:04
Speaker 1: assumption that all of us, almost everybody has, that that
46:06
Speaker 1: that's what marriage is. By the way, that certainly was
46:09
Speaker 1: not what marriage always was. Um, anybody who's read the
46:12
Speaker 1: Bible knows that that's not the case. But but for
46:14
Speaker 1: those of us today, you know, we might decide that
46:16
Speaker 1: that's absolutely essential. And that's fine. What I regret or
46:19
Speaker 1: lament about the way we're thinking about non monogamy is
46:24
Speaker 1: it is accepted as a default, and consequently we don't
46:29
Speaker 1: have any discussion of how we're going to do it.
46:32
Speaker 1: So it's not like we're you know, we're thirty and
46:34
Speaker 1: we hope to be married for the next sixty years,
46:36
Speaker 1: and it's like, boy, that's like a long time to
46:38
Speaker 1: be with only one person romantically and sexually. And I
46:41
Speaker 1: like flirting, like how are we going to keep this hot? Playful?
46:46
Speaker 1: Like how are we going to make this work. I
46:48
Speaker 1: just don't think that we're having mature conversations about that
46:52
Speaker 1: because we're not having mature conversations about what the alternatives
46:55
Speaker 1: might be. And so from my perspective, it is a
46:58
Speaker 1: damn big ass to say you will be with nobody
47:02
Speaker 1: but me in any romantic or sexual way for the
47:04
Speaker 1: next sixty years until death does us part, and and
47:08
Speaker 1: so good lots of people should make that ask. I
47:11
Speaker 1: have no objection to that ask. Great idea for many people,
47:14
Speaker 1: but there should be some sort of follow up thinking
47:17
Speaker 1: or conversation about how are we going to deliver on that?
47:20
Speaker 1: And I wish we had those conversations. Can you expand
47:23
Speaker 1: a little bit on in your book you talk about
47:25
Speaker 1: the bonds that a lot of marriage that you saw
47:29
Speaker 1: that were open, how their bond was sort of like,
47:33
Speaker 1: in a lot of instances, closer than some people who
47:35
Speaker 1: are monogamous. Yeah. So again, this is one of the
47:38
Speaker 1: cool things about being a relationship scientist rather than a speculator, right, Like,
47:41
Speaker 1: so this is an interesting question. So let's imagine that
47:45
Speaker 1: you're with one person as a primary partner. There are
47:47
Speaker 1: obviously other versions of non monogamy than that, but let's
47:49
Speaker 1: imagine that you have a primary partner. And we want
47:53
Speaker 1: to compare people who are with a primary partner and
47:56
Speaker 1: have a consensual nonmonogamy norm of some sort that is
47:59
Speaker 1: something other than complete monogamy, and another group of people
48:02
Speaker 1: that are again have a primary partner but really it's
48:05
Speaker 1: the only partner because you have a strong monogamy norm. Well, look,
48:08
Speaker 1: if you're an empiricist, if you're a social scientist, you
48:10
Speaker 1: can actually collect data and to what degree are the
48:13
Speaker 1: people in group A happier than the people in group
48:15
Speaker 1: and and by and large there's no difference. That is,
48:19
Speaker 1: by and large if you look at if I'm remembering correctly,
48:21
Speaker 1: if you look at intimacy, commitment, and satisfaction, you cannot
48:26
Speaker 1: find differences on average between the people who have opted
48:28
Speaker 1: into a non monogamy norm versus the people who have
48:31
Speaker 1: opted into a non monogamy norm um. And again they're
48:34
Speaker 1: reporting on on how committed and satisfied and intimate they
48:37
Speaker 1: are with their own relationship with their primary partner. Let
48:39
Speaker 1: me just say there are small differences on a couple
48:42
Speaker 1: of variables, trust and jealousy. The effects they're not huge effects,
48:47
Speaker 1: but they go in the direction that I think is
48:49
Speaker 1: not intuitive for most people. That is, people who have
48:51
Speaker 1: opted into a consensually non monogamous norm relative to people
48:55
Speaker 1: who have opted into a monogamous norm, are a little
48:59
Speaker 1: more trusting and a little less jealous. M it's such
49:03
Speaker 1: surprising information. I'm like, I'm a person who's monogamous, but
49:07
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated endlessly my non monogamy too. I'm also fascinated,
49:11
Speaker 1: But I mean, I think it makes sense because the
49:13
Speaker 1: reason why people don't want to be in that kind
49:15
Speaker 1: of dynamic is because they're not trustworthy or because they
49:18
Speaker 1: are jealous. Like I don't want an open relationship. I
49:20
Speaker 1: don't want my husband or boyfriend fucking other women. I'm
49:24
Speaker 1: not without me. You know, perhaps i'd be open to
49:27
Speaker 1: like that, but not not. No, I wouldn't be open
49:30
Speaker 1: to that. You know, it's just not a comfort level
49:31
Speaker 1: for me because I would be jealous. Yeah, that's right.
49:35
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you again. You you talked earlier
49:37
Speaker 1: about how you know you have some hard earned wisdom
49:39
Speaker 1: that you've accrued as an adult, and it sounds like
49:41
Speaker 1: you have a pretty good sense of where you stand
49:43
Speaker 1: on this. But that means that you're in a position
49:44
Speaker 1: to have a sophisticated conversation about it, like it could
49:47
Speaker 1: come up and you could say, well, these are circumstances
49:50
Speaker 1: that I could potentially imagine if they were important to you.
49:52
Speaker 1: These other circumstances I don't think will work. I know myself,
49:55
Speaker 1: and I tend toward jealousy in those cases, and I
49:56
Speaker 1: don't want to go crazy in this relationship. Like that
49:59
Speaker 1: is a great reason to opt into monogamy. I don't think.
50:03
Speaker 1: I don't know, just because nobody's ever thought about it
50:05
Speaker 1: or we're not allowed to talk about it, is a
50:06
Speaker 1: great reason to opt into monogamy, right right, exactly. Well, Eli,
50:12
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us today. Thank
50:14
Speaker 1: you very fun. Thank you, Eli. Niced to meet you.
50:18
Speaker 1: Die And for those of you listening, the book is
50:20
Speaker 1: called The All or Nothing Marriage, How the Best Marriages Work.
50:23
Speaker 1: This will be good for Joe and me because Joe
50:25
Speaker 1: wants to get married and you know I'm going to
50:28
Speaker 1: have to do that one day, right yeah, And I
50:29
Speaker 1: think it's great even for if you don't get married.
50:32
Speaker 1: It's great for like relationshipship for sure. And also, like
50:36
Speaker 1: I said, you know, patting yourself on the back when
50:38
Speaker 1: you get stuff, right, tell us about your stand up dates. Okay,
50:42
Speaker 1: so we added new shows for stand up. I vaccinated
50:45
Speaker 1: in a horny tour which I wanted People's Choice Award
50:47
Speaker 1: for you guys, the best comedy tour. Can you fucking
50:51
Speaker 1: believe that? I can't. I love it. For the people
50:54
Speaker 1: who voted for me, my god, thank you so much. Yeah,
50:57
Speaker 1: we had added second shows in Portland's do we just
51:00
Speaker 1: added second show. I added a show in Mauie, Pittsburgh, Philly,
51:04
Speaker 1: and Los Angeles. So we have a whole slew of
51:07
Speaker 1: shows if you go to Chelsea handler dot com that
51:09
Speaker 1: are already up. We've added a bunch of second shows
51:12
Speaker 1: and we're adding second shows in Kansas City, Mountclair, New Jersey,
51:16
Speaker 1: and Santa Rosa, California. Excellent, that's fantastic. You're all over.
51:22
Speaker 1: I'm all over. I'm coming your way, alright, alrighty, goodbye, byodbye.
51:28
Speaker 1: And if you have a question, or you and a
51:30
Speaker 1: loved one have a question, please write into Dear Chelsea
51:33
Speaker 1: Project at gmail dot com.