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Alcohol Addiction Symptoms: Signs You Shouldn't Ignore · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: If I can give it up, I don't have a problem.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: That is a misconception.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: National mental health expert Kelly Kitley, a licensed clinical social worker with more than 20 years of experience, shares her holistic approach to breaking cycles of trauma and addiction.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Look, we can't force somebody to change.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's really important to note.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: There has to be a willingness and a desire to stop drinking alcohol.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Recoverable.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Terry McGuire.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Today's discussion is going to be about alcohol use disorder and gray area drinking.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it's for anyone concerned about their own or someone else's drinking habits.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of us high-functioning people who feel a disconnect between our put together lives and our private drinking habits.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: This episode will explore that gap and remind us all that you don't have to be an alcoholic to decide that your life or someone else's could be better and healthier without alcohol.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Kelly Kitley, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's so great to be here, Terry.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you not only have the professional experience to discuss with us, but also lived experience, and you have literally written the book on being a person in recovery.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: So let's start with your own story and just tell us a bit about your personal experience and exposure to alcohol and alcohol use disorder.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I was born into the bar business.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's usually my opener.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's a heck of an opener.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: And um I my grandfather was a bar owner, my father was a bar owner, and now my brother is running my family bar.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you were raised above that bar.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: I was.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: As the oldest of five.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so the regulars were like extended family.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was very curious about alcohol at a young age.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And why did people walk into the bar acting a certain way and then they left acting a different way, which was usually louder and laughing and not able to walk straight?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I became very curious.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: I had my first blackout and my first drink when I was 13 years old.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and had tried to manage and control my drinking almost my entire drinking career, as I say.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: And as a mom of four children, my drinking changed throughout the trajectory from binge drinking to drinking more regularly, um, as I called it around the witching hour of raising children.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so the progression changed and the way that I drank changed.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I have been a clinical social worker for 25 years, and I didn't think I qualified as somebody who had a drinking problem.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I recognized um through my research and my schooling that alcohol use is really along a spectrum.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we can talk about um diagnoses and labels, but also it's important to look at alcohol use from a whole health perspective.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you are in recovery now.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: I will celebrate 13 years next month.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Congratulations.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: So we are gonna start with the top questions from the internet.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna have a thousand on my own because I'm very curious about your story and what you know what you can teach us.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Not surprisingly, the number one question that's searched in this area is simply am I an alcoholic?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: How do I know?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Terry, I took that questionnaire so many times.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes we overlook some of the real seriousness of it, because one of the um components of drinking is denial at times, and sometimes we minimize our drinking.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: But the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental health disorders qualifies alcohol use disorder if somebody has increased tolerance, if they have interruption in relationships or jobs, if they are increasing tolerance, if they're not recognized, if they're not able to stop on their own.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes we use these qualifiers of did you get a DUI?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Did you lose your job?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Did you lose your family?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: But really, it's when alcohol becomes a disruption in daily living.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: That can be a very difficult thing to recognize for yourself because it's easy to think, and I shouldn't even say think, it's easy to believe that it is improving your life because it's helping you whatever that is.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's completely normalized in our culture, in our societies.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so oftentimes, if we're drinking becomes problematic, somebody may bring that to our attention.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: But oftentimes we're hanging around people who drink similarly as we do.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: I remember asking the question, do you think I drink too much and getting not more than we do?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: Ha ha, cheers, you know?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: And that probably led to it lasting even more years.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we all have an idea in our mind of what a quote unquote alcoholic looks like.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: And for many of us, um, even my parents' generation, a lot of family members abused substances.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was, well, we never lost our job.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I'm not dependent on it.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: I can go days without drinking.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: But then when I pick it back up, I can't stop.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what we think of and what actually is problematic drinking needs to change.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I'm so excited to be here today to talk about that and how that's even changed since I got sober 13 years ago as a woman in recovery.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: So one of the things I want to talk about before we get further in the discussion, just so it's sort of on the table, is the words.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's I'm an I'm Terry, I'm an alcoholic at an AA meeting.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: And yet there are people who really take uh objection, object to the use of the term alcoholic.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because of the stigmatary.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of times people are afraid of how somebody else will see them.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so in the case of a 12-step meeting, Alcoholics Anonymous Anonymous specifically, you're absolutely right.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's how people introduce themselves.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody may find great benefit in that because it's not questionable.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have a problem with alcohol or not?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm admitting that I have a problem and I'm surrendering and recognizing that I'm powerless over alcohol and I'm here with other people who have a common goal, which is a desire to stop drinking.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: So way before that, let's talk about the signs of alcohol addiction or alcohol use disorder.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: And we you you sort of ran through a list, but how does someone who's wondering, do I, does someone else have a problem as opposed to just drink more than I'm comfortable with or that other people are comfortable with if I'm fine with it?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_03: What are the ways that you differentiate between uh regular or habitual drinking and problematic drinking?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I'll run through the exact qualifications for that because it is a list and the DSM says that if you have experienced two of these over the course of a year, that you qualify as having alcohol use disorder.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Some of the qualifiers are drinking more or longer than intended, um, trying to cut down, but not being able to cut down or cut back, having increased craving, increased tolerance.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So there's the a physical component to that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: And also having withdrawal symptoms.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people want to stop drinking, but it is advised that they not stop drinking on their own and would potentially need medical detox.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: So some of those withdrawal symptoms are shaky hands or forgetfulness or needing alcohol just to have some homeostasis.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes people will start drinking in the morning to curb a hangover.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: So absolutely.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: We've heard a lot of these sayings that people identify with and again have normalized.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then uh also just spending a lot of time thinking about drinking and then recovering from drinking.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the hangovers and sometimes people refer to that as anxiety, where their increase of anxiety will happen the next day because alcohol is a depressant.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's this cyclical component of not being able to regulate mood, emotions, and it's all over the board.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's like kind of an unpredictability there.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: You didn't get very far down that list when you say that two, you only have to relate to two to fit the diagnosis before I'm thinking, oh, I did that, I did that, I did that, I don't drink anymore.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, and I don't know that I considered myself an alcoholic.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I I check more than two of those boxes.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it is important for everybody to look at how alcohol plays a role in your life, especially when we're talking about mental health and physical health.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, right, I mean, that's a short list.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: Can someone be addicted to alcohol or have alcohol use disorder if they only drink on the weekends?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that is a great question.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: And this always trips me up because I don't like putting parameters around how much somebody drinks, because what a 65-year-old man can drink versus a 32-year-old woman is very different.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And how many drinks?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the the Surgeon General last year in 2025, this is really important to note, stated that alcohol consumption was associated with seven cancers.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going off topic here, but when we use the qualifiers of can I have alcohol use disorder if I'm only drinking on the weekends, the answer is yes, especially if you're looking at what are some consequences that are happening on those weekends that you're drinking.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: So you might abstain during the week and then we cross over that we'll get into some more of this idea that that is not a medical term, but gray area drinking that is less frequent, but can have more internal consequences in terms of not liking who you are or evaluating some of the things you do when you're drinking.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: But you're very high functioning and you're running a household and you have a job and you're just going to cocktail hours with coworkers.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, all of these things that we have a tendency to kind of evaluate do I have a problem or not?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that comes from who are the people that we are around?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, especially having the clinical knowledge and feeling like I didn't fit some of the criteria, it was about putting my blinders on and saying, how does this feel internally?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think if anybody's questioning their relationship with alcohol, that's a good diagnostic tool.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: How is it playing a role in your life?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a family history?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Are you more susceptible to maybe developing some kind of addiction or dependence?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: And with so many of us, and including you, having a lineage, you know, where there was alcoholism in or alcohol use disorder, they didn't used to call it that, in our genetic pool.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's really easy for it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I remember a glass of wine on the table when I was a little girl.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: It was like, oh, she can have this some of the sweet wine.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, why are you giving an eight-year-old, a 10-year-old a little bit of alcohol to create the taste?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: But there's also that if you're drinking white wine out of a lovely wine glass or, you know, really good scotch out of a beautiful crystal glass, as opposed to drinking from a bottle in a bag, it's all the same if it's probably the way it's presented, right?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So glamorous.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, in media and in life.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it is really important that we look at it from a different lens, you know, that um there are there has been a huge decrease in the amount that people are drinking, especially the younger generation, because I believe we're educating and we're offering other tools and coping mechanisms for being a human being in life.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of times people are using alcohol to self-medicate, whether they're feeling depressed and they're trying to elevate their mood perhaps, or they're feeling anxious and they're trying to take the edge off, or they're they're working through some post-traumatic stress disorder.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of times people are looking to alcohol for symptom relief.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I'm working with clients in treatment, sometimes I will ask them, can we remove alcohol from the equation while you are in treatment just so that we can get a clearer picture of what's going on underneath the surface?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_03: So if you began drinking consciously or not, to uh to deal with to not feel something bad or to feel something good that maybe you think you wouldn't experience like confidence in a social situation without alcohol, and you and you started at 13.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: So by the time you quit 13 years ago, by the time you are in recovery, you haven't learned those skills that came naturally to people who weren't drinking or more naturally.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: How do you catch up?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: How do you because there's a fear, right?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, if I stop drinking, I can't go to a party anymore.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: I can't do this anymore.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna be fun.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not gonna be funny.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's the internal dialogue we feel and we have with ourselves.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think so many people struggle alone because they're not sharing those thoughts.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so that relief comes in.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've been there too.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: I've had those thoughts.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: I can relate.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and that's what the foundation of treatment has been for people in recovery is community.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, social anxiety can heighten exponentially when somebody stops drinking.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to glamorize that sobriety is beautiful.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: And the minute you stop drinking, you're sleeping better and your relationships improve.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: There's a huge learning curve that happens.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And now there are lots of non-alcoholic options and people are more aware to have other options outside of alcohol when we go to parties.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: But when I first got sober, I remember like sneaking in my seltzer water and and pouring it into a glass so nobody would ask me if I was drinking or not.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so that just enhanced the uncomfortabless and the shame.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now, 13 years in, I'm a little more confident in my choice.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And people know I don't drink.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they offer me other options that are non-alcoholic.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it is a learning curve and it's a reparative experience of learning different coping mechanisms, positive self-talk, moving our body, reaching out for help.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Who helps you learn those things?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because not everybody's in therapy.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's nice that there's a mock tail on the menu now and I can order that and avoid some questions.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: But if you have a a deep internal discomfort, I'll say.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how you were treating it, or trauma.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Now what?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: What now what do I use to deal with maybe the why from before?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a big advocate for writing.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: It can be very cathartic and a tool to use to decompress, especially if somebody is going to a social situation and feeling all, you know, they've eliminated alcohol and they're feeling all the feelings bubbling over to get quiet and to sit and and get in touch with the feelings that are going on.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: But then also to give permission to people, if they do feel uncomfortable in situations, they can show up late.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: They can leave early.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's no time set on how long you need to stay.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: In early sobriety, sometimes it's really important not to go to those social events because they can be very triggering.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: The biggest component to all of this is not doing it alone.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So whether it's one or two other people who know that you're on this journey or a community of people that you can reach out to while you're having these feelings, those are all free resources that we can talk about a little more that people can tap into for support.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about some of the internal signs of addiction.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I know like the clock watching, you know, it's like, is it five?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Is it five yet?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Or the it's five o'clock somewhere syndrome.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, or just that sort of obsessive thinking, like tonight I'm gonna, or or not tonight this morning.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: So alcohol use disorder is a brain disorder.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it is about the thinking.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of it is the negotiating with yourself.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'll only drink on Tuesday and Thursday and Saturday, and I'll only drink beer.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I won't touch vodka.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hard alcohol.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Hard alcohol, because that tends to have too big of an impact on me.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'll only have three drinks, but then I recognize once I have three drinks, maybe four or five because our inhibitions are it is very hard to moderate.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for some people, they can do it, but I also want to put it out there that sometimes people set out on a path of moderation and are not able to do it, and then they feel like total failures.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: That I believe getting to a place of maybe giving up alcohol altogether, it is a process.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Most of us don't wake up in the morning and say, you know what?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think my life will be better without alcohol.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna stop starting today.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is a journey of exploration and trying different things.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: So oftentimes, if people do hear that internal voice of, I'm wondering if I'm having a little bit of a problem.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna take a deeper look at this.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: They will put restrictions on it or try to count.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there is a um a strategy people use sometimes called moderation management, where they do feelings check-ins before they have a drink.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Am I feeling anxious, lonely, tired?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need this drink?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want this drink?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Do I give myself permission to drink?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: They'll have one or two drinks and then they'll pause and then they may have another drink.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a mindfulness approach.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: It is not a moral failure if somebody cannot moderate.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I look at all of these tools as information gathering.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: I gave up drinking every Lent for 40 days.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: That was big in my family.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Dry January.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: You can't be an alcoholic.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I can quit.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: If I if I'm not shaking and don't need a drink the next day, I don't have a problem.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: If I can give it up, I don't have a problem.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: That is a misconception.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: The idea behind the alcohol use disorder is that once we start, we have a hard time stopping.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's about what happens when we do pick up.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes people who do abstain, whether it's dry January or sober October or dry July, that is trending and people are using this as like a health conscious approach, might go back on Easter if it's 40 days of Lent and be off to the races and pick up right where they left off.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there is caution in trying some of those things.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it is always important to have some supplemental behaviors too, um, in terms of if five o'clock is a time that you would pour that drink when you get home from work, maybe you reach out to somebody and ask if they want to go for a walk for 30 minutes.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a a more healthy behavior and it's something that you're actually thinking about and planning, where a lot of times pouring a glass of wine can be habitual for people and they don't even think about pouring the next glass or even pouring the first glass.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: So a lot of it is about my a mindfulness approach.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: So, in that example, would taking a half an hour walk before pouring the glass of wine or whatever it is, is it delaying it?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it that when you get back you might realize you dove right into making dinner and didn't even have one?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: That is a great question because some of it is about harm reduction.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the harm reduction approach would be the postponing.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: So if I go for a walk, I might not have a drink till 6:30 or 7.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'll have one or two less glasses of wine.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Some people oftentimes will report gosh, I feel so much better.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: What was making me feel anxious is no longer there.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need that glass of wine.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then they make dinner and carry on.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people need the ritual of just holding something, like you were talking about the glamorization when you were younger, pouring it in something, putting a mocktail in a wine glass or a crystal chalice, whatever it might be.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of those rounds.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, some people think that that's okay.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Other people think that that ritual is triggering.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it really is a case-by-case basis.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: We're talking about this and we have addressed it a bit, but the direct question is why can't I stop after just one drink when other people seem to be able to?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: So oftentimes we compare ourselves to others, especially in social situations.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that can be an a diagnostic indicator if you're noticing that.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um, I will have clients talk about being out for dinner and they'll notice people at the table don't finish their glass of wine or they don't reach to pour another glass, but they recognize they're anxious to get the next glass of wine and aren't able, don't have an off switch.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I think.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: That is a sign that there could be some problematic relationship with alcohol.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's a data point, as someone might say.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's information.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: Information, absolutely.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: And keep track of that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: How, how, how frequently is that happening?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a one-time incident because you had a really stressful week at work and you're looking to take the edge off?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not giving people permission to use that as a coping mechanism, but there can be isolated incidents.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're looking at patterns here.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: How frequently is it happening?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: How many negative consequences am I having?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is it not allowing me to live my best life?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's so many questions here, because someone might think their best life is going out and partying with their friends and having a grand old time.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's true.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's the reality of it.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And look, we can't force somebody to change.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that's really important to note.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: There has to be a willingness and a desire to stop drinking alcohol.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if somebody thinks that they are living their best life with alcohol, they're living their best life with alcohol.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have, which I know we'll get into later in terms of if we notice somebody else has a problem and you're recognizing it, it is important to take a gentle approach.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: So oftentimes people don't see it within themselves and they will have family members raise concern or maybe work raised concern.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: We can offer them treatment, but we can't force somebody to do that.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now, unless it's court mandated or human resources get gets involved, I think that sometimes that can be very helpful for somebody to have the light shine on the behavior that they're engaging in, that it isn't as glamorous as they think that it is.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: So whether that light is shown from outside or from inside, it's like, uh, is this I think maybe this is a problem.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: Are you able, is one able to retrain your brain and say, I am just gonna have two and it is just gonna be on the weekends?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: Or do we all try that and then get to the point where it's like, oh hell, I gotta quit altogether?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, is that I have seen a wide range, which is why I view alcohol use along a spectrum that some people require inpatient hospitalization, detox, medical assistance with their alcohol use, depending on how much they're using.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then we have people who can have a drink one a weekend and be totally content with that.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: But most of us are somewhere in between.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so in my experience, most people who have tried to moderate try to moderate over and over again until it's not working anymore.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Some people can say, you know what, I'm gonna try to not drink as much.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: But those people usually weren't big drinkers in the first place.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: So they are able to say, I'll have one or two on the weekend and be fine with that.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: So let's talk about the health risks.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: So what are the health risks associated with heavy drinking?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of health risks associated with heavy drinking.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: Some of those can include liver failure, breast cancer, colon cancer, high blood pressure, being over or underweight.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: It can impact nutrition, it can impact uh memory, it can also impact some more of the more vein components of ourself and how we look.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: It can increase the aging process.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: It can negatively impact our skin.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's not an exhaustive list, but that certainly is a list.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: And is there an ability to say this is going to have an impact on my heart, this is gonna have an impact on my blood pressure, or are you just not, is one just not thinking of that when you're in it?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that physical symptoms can certainly be a motivator for people to change their relationship with alcohol or completely stop.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Even if so, you know, we all have different things that motivate us.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so it is interesting.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: We do hear about people who go to treatment over and over again and maybe will report by the ninth time they were able to give up alcohol completely.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Some people go one time and it works.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Some people go to Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, that works.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: But there is a consistency component in terms of how somebody is working a recovery program.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just abstaining from the alcohol.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And that is where we find the success.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about that difference.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: So you can stop.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: I am sober.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: And you can be in recovery.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: What's the difference?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: It is so important.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to use, you know, language is so important when we talk about this topic.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And some people are turned off by certain language.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: So as we mentioned in the beginning about using the word alcoholic or addict.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Some people say they misused alcohol or um abused alcohol.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: Some people say I just don't drink anymore and they don't like the label at all.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: So when somebody chooses a sober lifestyle, that means that they have potentially decided to not engage in any substances.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Some people qualify by saying, I'm sober from alcohol, but maybe they're not sober from, say, marijuana.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then the piece of recovery is so important because the word that I was going to use where I got sidetracked was being a dry drunk, is a term that people have used historically, where they give up the substance, but maybe they're not living a connected life and feeling either spiritually connected or having a better purpose or engaging more with their family, um, that they're just kind of going through the motions and not making any other emotional or behavioral changes.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: As we were talking about before, oftentimes there's a comorbidity with alcohol use, where somebody may be experiencing depression or anxiety or bipolar disorder or so many other comorbidities in conjunction to that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if they're not treating what's underneath the alcohol use, then those symptoms remain without the substance.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe they're more angry or they're agitated, or they don't have mental clarity because they're not practicing emotional sobriety.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they're not working through past traumas.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's why therapy or 12-step meetings can be so helpful because it helps us to unpack some of the emotional components of maybe what led to our drinking and helps us get support in community.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: So there is a huge difference between just stopping and then also eliminating the substance and working a program of recovery that is aligned and connected.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a social worker, so I look at the person and environment.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: What are the other things that make somebody whole, spiritual, professional, family and friends, activities, hobbies, all of those things.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: My hope is that people live a life of recovery.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if they're not, I do know people who said, I never knew the difference.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: I just stopped drinking and then make that shift so it's never too late.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: As somebody in recovery and who helps other people be and stay in recovery, how does it feel differently than just saying, I don't drink anymore?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, you hear white knuckling it or that sort of term, but just like, okay, that was the problem.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: And look, I don't do it anymore.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: What's that feel like as opposed to just, you know, the the words?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get emotional because there is such a shift internally that happens.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: And to use that word white knuckling, right?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, oh, don't make me want to have a drink at this party.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: I just got to get through this next hour and then I can go home.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: And okay, I got through that.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Recovery is a connected life.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's um a feeling of being connected to something bigger than yourself.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's relinquishing control over having to manage and control something that feels unmanageable.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also a sense of clarity.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: That is something that I've personally experienced as well as my clients have reported, that without all the noise of the alcohol use and the recovering piece of the physical and emotional symptoms that come with a night of drinking the next day, that oftentimes takes people several days to recover from, it is a grounding and connected life that I have felt has enhanced my life in more ways than I ever imagined.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And even as a woman in longer-term recovery, it continues to get better.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Life is still hard.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the things that used to baffle me, like feeling overwhelmed with managing four small children and a job and a marriage, it's still hard.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm better able to cope because I have a sense of clarity and assurance of myself in mind and body.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't have that when I was drinking.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: You use the word comorbidity, and and I don't think a lot of people who are not experts or, you know, clinicians use it.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm thinking of a Venn diagram, right?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: And there are very many of us.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: I have depression and I started drinking really, really, really young.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Is there a chicken egg thing?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Is it we think we're depressed and so we're drinking?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Or are we drinking and it's a depressive?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how does it all work together?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's cyclical.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and it's different for for different people, which is why we have to take an individual approach to this.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Can long-term, can somebody who doesn't have anxiety or depression develop a mood disorder throughout long-term alcohol use?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: Are there some people who have a mood disorder and drank and that exacerbated symptoms?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not a one size fit fits all.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not a did this happen first or this, the chicken or the egg, so to speak.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: But I do believe that it is so interconnected.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking about alcohol use here, but I think that it's also important to keep an eye on any other addictive behaviors that could come up when somebody eliminates alcohol.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because they may just substitute it with food or gambling or relationships or sex or any other.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's an obsession of the mind.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: So pick the vice.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really important to make sure that you are doing the work to understand uh maybe the hole that you're trying to fill.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: Often with my children, when I was raising them, I would say that the first rule of holes is when you're in one, quit digging.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: But that's a really hard thing to do when you believe that the substances or the behaviors are what are helping you.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: And Terry, sometimes it is helping people, you know, until it's not helping them anymore.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I had lots of great times drinking.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't always bad.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's the recognizing when it happens.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if we don't recognize it within ourselves, we have a responsibility to recognize it or say something to somebody who we think is engaging in problematic drinking.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: So after someone stops using alcohol, how long does it take before your brain and any other parts of your body that were affected by the drinking sort of repair themselves or come back to some center point?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, people will report that when they stop drinking, they may notice if they are not heavy drinkers, but they're more moderate or gray area drinkers, that they are sleeping better, that they're having more energy, that they're more focused on their health, whether it be nutrition or moving their body.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oftentimes it takes about 30 days for there to be a full shift, brain-wise and physically.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: Many people say 60 or 90 days.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: It depends on who you ask.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: We know that any amount of prolonging or abstaining or not engaging has positive benefits.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: It will depend on how long somebody has engaged in alcohol use as to how long it will take for their brain to reset.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_03: How much damage was done.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: Correctly.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_03: So if I'm watching or listening and I'm thinking, you know what?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of things she's saying, uh like they're they're ringing true to me.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: I know there's, I know I'm overdoing it.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: And that and a lot of us do know before we quit.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_03: I certainly did as well.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_03: What are some practical tapering strategies for somebody so that they can cut back safely and effectively?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: So for instance, if somebody is recognizing that they want to try to cut back, what they will program that they can follow is moderation management.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody can look that up and follow steps for doing that.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of it is around planning.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be careful here to not try to like teach people how to drink properly, but there is a formula that you can follow if you're trying to reduce.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe you sit down on Sunday night with your planner and you say, I have two events this week and I'm going to try to not drink at home, but I will give myself permission to drink at these social events.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I will allow myself to have two drinks at those social events.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to have a non-alcoholic option in between those two drinks.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that is allowing me to hold something, it's allowing the alcohol to not kick in as quickly.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a harm reduction model.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: If people can try to do that and recognize the benefits that they're feeling, they may be more motivated to want to give up alcohol completely.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Or if they don't have alcohol use disorder, they may be able to maintain that.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: How can somebody who's trying to reduce their alcohol intake or stop altogether and maintain their sobriety and recovery manage social situations where everybody seems to be drinking?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's important to check in with yourself and make sure that you are in a place that you feel supported and that you are in an emotional capacity to be able to expose yourself to a situation like that.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that can be by bringing somebody else with you.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: It can be telling somebody that you trust that you're on this journey.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then also making sure people ask questions sometimes, especially if they're used to drinking with you, if they're a drinking buddy.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's important to come up with some kind of practiced script so that when you are put on the spot, you don't feel like you have to think about it right then and there, that you've already said, oh, I'm focusing on my health, or I'm getting up early tomorrow, so I'm choosing not to drink.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: You don't owe anybody an explanation why you're not drinking, but people will ask.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: I remember getting, are you pregnant?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, lovely.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, really?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only reason someone doesn't drink.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_03: And and at that point it may have been.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and Terry, it's so interesting because when somebody is trying to take a whole health approach in terms of, you know, their nutrition or they're on um a diet, let's say.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't have a brownie at a party, somebody's not saying, oh, why aren't you having a brownie?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you really want one?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: They say, good for you.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: We need to change that for alcohol use as well.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: 100%.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Can I get you something to drink?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: And let them tell you what it is that they want.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Don't assume.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: That's really good advice.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I also, you know, the let's talk a little bit about in that transition period, however long it might last, that you still want something in your hand and sometimes you want it to look like a drink, and sometimes you're, you know, standing proud and I'm just drinking, I'm not drinking, I'm having water.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: But for that in-between phase, what are some tips that you have for somebody in a social situation to reduce the likelihood they're going to get asked those questions?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes I suggest people go up to, let's say you're at a wedding and you go up to the bar and get friendly with a bartender.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And they oftentimes are very happy to accommodate special requests.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they can pour a non-alcoholic beer into a glass.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, be cautious with that because that taste can sometimes be triggering for some people.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: For others, it's not.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: But being able to hold something that looks like a beer may put you at ease, whether you sip it or not.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's a personal preference.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: So some of this is trial by fire and trial by error.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I look at it as exposure therapy.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: So being able to see how do you feel in these situations?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is this triggering for you?
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: What do you feel most comfortable doing?
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or sometimes somebody can just say, hey, can you put some soda water in a glass and add a splash of cranberry so it looks like something that is fancy and nobody's gonna question me?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Water with any piece of fruit and it looks like a drink, right?
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: So how do you redefine your social identity if your entire circle has sort of revolved around drinking?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: It is important to note that there is a sense of loss that happens, especially for many of us whose badge of honor was socializing in alcohol-saturated situations.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so give yourself permission to grieve and recognize that even though it's a positive journey that you're heading toward or that you're on, that there can feel like some isolation and some loss.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Friendships might change.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there may be some uncomfortability.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that that is also an important time for us to give ourselves some grace and to recognize that we may notice that we have things inherently within ourselves that we didn't notice before, and that we continue down this path of learning more about ourselves when we remove alcohol.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: So the phrase sober curious, what does it mean?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: And how does it help?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's important for people to not feel like they have to sign up for something that they can't break.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's sometimes why people say, I can't give it up completely yet.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: People often say, I want to try this out and see what all the rage is, what people are talking about, but I don't want to give it up completely.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna try this sober thing on.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: What does it look like to maybe abstain for a month at a time or a week at a time and recognizing any benefits that that might have for them?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: So they may say, I don't identify with having a problem with alcohol, but I'm curious about what some of the positive benefits are.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe they want to dip their toe in and they start reading um quitlet of other people who have had experiences giving up alcohol or reducing alcohol.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or they want to see and talk to somebody else who has tried this on as a new identity.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so they are curious to know what some of these benefits are.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that has really changed over the course of the last few or the last decade, definitely, um, in our culture.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Quit lit is not a phrase a lot of people have heard of.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us what that is.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Quit literature really refers to people who've written memoirs or people write about their own experience with cutting back or reducing or abstaining, outside of um a traditional alcoholics anonymous approach that many people are privy to just because they've heard about it in pop culture, but really about the experience of going about different ways of reducing or eliminating alcohol altogether.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: In conjunction with some of those resources for reading about other people's stories, where a lot of people can find a relationship to shared experience, they may join different kinds of groups online.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: That has become really popular.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Smart Recovery is uh a program that people have uh tried to manage and control their drinking or looked at how alcohol plays a role in.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Their life.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: She recovers is a great online resource.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that philosophy is more about we are all recovering from something.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are people who are seeking support for a wide variety of issues.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: And there are also some sober groups that people are trying on.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: We are the Luckiest is a program.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: And The Temptist, which was started by a woman who is in long-term recovery who started an Alcoholics Anonymous and then developed her own program for people who are sober curious to follow.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: So is part of that just learning what it, what sobriety, what recovery would be, am I able to do it based on the information I get?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it also, are these other people still any fun?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_03: Is it sort of wanting to be in an environment with other people who are in recovery and seeing, is this a group I want to be a part of?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for saying that, because oftentimes people are afraid of feeling bored or left out or boring.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And the approach with these groups is that there is a common interest to bettering their life without alcohol, and they are finding ways to enhance life that may be an internal process or engaging in trying yoga practices or meditation or different types of groups, maybe joining an athletic group that they've never tried.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody just recently reported they tried tennis for the first time because they're shifting what their behaviors are.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: And for so many of us, especially around bar culture, it's so easy, right?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: To just say, oh, meet me at a bar at this time.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, no real planning goes into that.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes when people change their relationship with alcohol, they don't know what to do in terms of socializing.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a pure support for people saying, Oh, I tried this.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you could try this in your community and giving suggestions and tidbits to other people so that there is a commonality and they don't feel so alone.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there are also people at different time lengths throughout the process where maybe somebody's coming in for the first day and they have one day of not drinking and they can ask questions to people who maybe have been around a couple months longer.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just that you're not the only person who's curious, not the only person who's trying, not the only person who's concerned, but you're not the only person who is struggling to have a healthy relationship with yourself and with alcohol.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: That alone can be healing.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: The normalization and somebody else saying me too can make all the difference and can help us connect on a deeper level and make us feel less alone.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's exactly where we're gonna stop for today.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: We will be back next week.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: We'll continue this discussion, and we're also gonna talk about how you have a conversation with somebody in your life who you are concerned about and a number of other things.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: So please come back, join us next week as we continue this discussion with Kelly Kitley.