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57: SLAY The Bully w/ Rebecca Zung · Harder Than Life

• 0:00
  I'm Kelly Siegel and this is harder than life a podcast about self-love self-awareness business and health We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple practical advice. You can start using today. Let's get living
• 0:15
  Today's guest is Rebecca Zung and an expert on narcissism. And we are going to discuss her new book, Slay, how to negotiate with a narcissist bully and win. You should listen to her because she is a real world experience has been on the Ed Milad podcast has over 35 million views on YouTube and is recognized as the top 1% of attorneys in the nation.
• 0:35
  One would like to think that she has an ego, but I easily approached this beautiful soul in an event that we both attended and struck up a conversation immediately. She is kind, loving, warm, and here to share her wisdom on the Heart of Life podcast. Welcome, Rebecca. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure. Thank you.
• 0:56
  I got to tell you, now that we're recording, this book was fabulous. I read it in two days digitally. And I am a regular book reader. And I had it electronically. And I read it. And I was cutting and pasting it.
• 1:11
  I couldn't put it down. So I know that we're here to talk all things book. I cannot wait to get a hard copy so I can read it again. I am telling you, everybody needs to go out and read this book. I was floored by what the definition of a narcissist is. So I thought I knew what it is. I'm sure you run into this all the time. And the stories that you tell.
• 1:35
  Oh, run out and get this book as soon as it's available, everybody. It is that good. And I'm not. Everybody knows I read a ton. I read a book a week. Read this in two days electronically. So we're going to get right into it. I noticed something and I want to ask you a question. The title actually reads Slay the Bully in big white print and small black is the rest of the title. Is it intended to honor your upbringing as being bullied? Did you notice that? Slay the Bully?
• 2:04
  Yeah. I mean, I didn't actually originally come up with the title. I had, the publisher had helped me come up with the title, but I liked it because I had been bullied as a kid. And I did feel like I've come full circle with it. And if you noticed, I kind of,
• 2:29
  It started, obviously, with the fact that I had been bullied as a kid. And then at the end, I ended up acknowledging the bullies. And I kind of ended up acknowledging them as lessons in my life. And I do feel like it's all been a confluence of events. When I look at the whole thing, I feel like everything in my life has led up to this moment. I feel...
• 2:57
  And I believe that it's that way for everybody's life. You know, everything is a lesson and everything does lead from one thing to the next. And I think that I'm meant to do this because I was bullied as a kid. I think narcissists are bullies, you know? So...
• 3:19
  When they approached me and came up with that name, I really actually thought it was perfect because of that. It totally comes away that you have...
• 3:32
  You have overcome, you took away all the bully's powers. So you definitely slayed the bully. And it was evident in the reading of the book. So you were married at 19 for the first time, divorced, and went back to law school, had three kids. Just in case anybody doesn't know your backstory, which I literally, I went back and listened to every podcast I could find. I read the book. I did all the reading.
• 3:54
  I know all about you, but some of my listeners might not. So could you just give us a two second? What's what happened in your why are you here? Why is your story matter? Yes, so I am half Chinese and half German, so I always joke that I have no fun jeans whatsoever. I
• 4:14
  My producers lie laughing in the background. That's terrible, but funny. Yeah. So I graduated second in my class from high school, you know, because that was, you know, if your dad is Chinese, that's what you do. And I ended up, my version of rebelling was to get married at 19, drop out of college. And I had three kids by the time I was 22 years old.
• 4:42
  And then I ended up going, this is not for me. And I thought, I got to figure out how I'm going to get my life back on track. And I had become a teacher. So I was teaching inner city elementary school in Fort Lauderdale, which is something I normally talk about, actually. But I was teaching elementary school in inner city, Fort Lauderdale.
• 5:10
  And this is actually not a story I normally tell, but I, yeah, but I was standing at recess with this other teacher and I was like 26 years old.
• 5:28
  And I had these little kids, you know, but they were like, I don't know, six, seven, you know, little kids, but I was only 26 years old, but I had these three little kids. And I was, you know, getting a divorce at that point. And I had...
• 5:46
  this is my life. And I remember this other teacher and I were talking about this other teacher who was getting a promotion and going to work at the district office. And like, that was like, Ooh, the thing. And she said, Oh, he got out, but not you and me. We're stuck here. And I remember thinking, Oh,
• 6:13
  I said, thinking to myself saying to her, but I didn't say this out loud. Maybe you are, but I'm out of here. And I just, in that moment thought, I got to get out of this place. And I was in the process of getting a divorce. And there I was with these three little kids and I'm teaching inner city school.
• 6:43
  And that day, almost, I'm pretty sure, that was when I looked into University of Miami's night program at law school, and I applied for law school at night. And that's when I went back to law school at night. And...
• 7:03
  I graduated from law school at night. I was, I was like only 30 years old, but I was, I felt like I was so old at that point because I had these kids that were like eight, nine and 10. And I had met my husband in law school and my second husband who I'm married to now. And yeah. And I mean, we've been together for like 25 years already at this point. And we have a 21 year old daughter. And,
• 7:33
  But it's just kind of crazy because, you know, I've lived this whole second life with him, and I've got these kids that are grown, but yet, you know...
• 7:49
  I had lived that whole life already in my 20s at that point, you know, and I had to stay up till two in the morning and study and and take care of my kids. And it was a crazy life at that point.
• 8:05
  you're living the American dream and you took, you took a swing at the first time you missed, and then you did, you got right back up. And, and I applaud you for that, but let's jump right into at one point you were at, you say there's a, there's a triad of a narcissist and what,
• 8:21
  Let me say exactly how I had, has this a dark triad of narcissism. The first part of the triad is the narcissist dependency on feeling special and being the only one who gets to feel special. The second part is the lack of remorse for how they treat others. And the third part is a penchant for manipulation. And you write quite the little fun combo. Define narcissism for the listeners, please. Yeah. And boy, he really did read the book. I'm so excited. Oh, that's the tip of the iceberg. Okay.
• 8:50
  Yeah, that's so good. I like to define it in terms of like a layperson definition to make it easy for people to understand. You know, I think it's definitely a spectrum. We all have our own insecurities, right?
• 9:08
  But if you go all the way down to the end of the spectrum, which is narcissistic personality disorder. And in the book, I do talk about the nine criteria that the DSM-5 requires that mental health professionals look at.
• 9:27
  But, which, you know, are the grandiosity and the shamelessness and all of those things. But I think it's most important that people understand it's a person who feels totally and completely empty inside, a person who feels like they have no...
• 9:46
  feeling of value internally, none. And so they have to get all of their value from external sources. And it's this complete black hole that will never be filled. And so they suck all of their value from
• 10:04
  external. And so it's people or things or trappings like prestige, money, friends, celebrity, or it's degrading people, manipulating people, treating people poorly. It's passive aggression. It's pushing other people down to make themselves feel good.
• 10:31
  and it can never be filled ever. It's, and it's the deepest pain and shame that you can imagine. And that's why they can't feel or see anything about you. So, you know, it's scarcity to the
• 10:53
  It's this constant cycle. And that's why you are left feeling totally and utterly depleted. And yet they're still starving.
• 11:03
  You wrote in another, I'm gonna just quote this, narcissists really are toddlers stuck in adult bodies. But here's the thing, living day to day is always about, all about survival for them. That made me actually feel sad for them. It really did. Because we throw around the term narcissism so much. That's why today we're gonna deep dive and you gotta go buy her book because the nine traits that she went over, I read it twice. I read it twice. I couldn't figure out, it was so long
• 11:29
  I couldn't figure out how to get it in the show. But if you don't, if we cover too much of the book in this, go buy the book just for that chapter. Those nine traits and how you break it down, you articulated it so easily digestible. A neophyte like me understood every word that you wrote. So again, I still have compassion for people. It's probably one of my, I'm an empath, so it's probably why I'm going to,
• 11:56
  deep dive into some of my stories about narcissism, but what are the three types of narcissists, the covert, grandiose and malignant? And what's the difference between the three?
• 12:05
  Yeah, and I will absolutely get into that. The one thing I want to say before I get into that is I am very much an empath too. And I just had this whole conversation with my therapist, by the way. And so I... I love you, by the way. Just so you know, I love you. You're so real and so personable. I walked up with you. You're just genuine and authentic. And your heart is as big as you are.
• 12:35
  Oh, thank you. And, you know, you have to say, I'm going to give this person compassion, but over there. And I'm just like, I love you from over here.
• 12:48
  Over there, you know, and that was what my therapist was like, you know, how do I feel? What do I need? How do I feel? What do I need? You know, because you cannot give, give, give, give, give so much of yourself to this person. You know, otherwise you give too much of this, of yourself to this person. Right. So, because they will just take, take, take, and you...
• 13:13
  You have to see and stop with the boundaries, right? And so they're not going to get healed. They're not going to get better. You've got to, like, not allow yourself to fall into that trap over and over again. I found that very fascinating.
• 13:34
  matter of fact that you didn't deviate from that one time in the book where it was like they will not heal and there wasn't any point where you said well maybe this and they no you just you never even gave an opening and i love that you took that stance because most people won't draw a line in the sand say this is where it is about anything and you left no doubt about it they will not heal do not expect them to get better
• 13:58
  No. I mean, and I've even talked to psychologists who've tried psychedelics and all sorts of other things. I mean, and so, you know, you just can't allow yourself that opening of, well, maybe I can help, you know, because I've been.
• 14:14
  I'm there, I'm that girl, I'm the one who's like given myself, oh, help, I'll be the one, you know, cause that's me. I'm the girl who does that. Is that what happened in the first, and I know this is the father of your children, but was your first husband a narcissist? No, no, no, no.
• 14:36
  Oh, it was the business partner. We're going to talk about that. I forgot. It was the business partner. Yeah, I know. Yeah. But, you know, I've done that in many other situations too, you know. I get there. I'm the one who's always like the giving, giving, giving person. And, you know, it allows me to have – I have a lot of great friends. I have a lot of friends because of that, which are wonderful friendships.
• 14:59
  But I also, you know, and it makes, I'm a very, very good lawyer because of it. Because I'll advocate for people to the nth degree, you know. But it doesn't make for, you end up, narcissists will take full on advantage of you, too. Because of that. You know. We're going to deep dive into that right now. It's chapter three. I know that you changed the names. But Peter, with his mother and his wife.
• 15:29
  It hit home. That exact scenario happened to me, and I wrote a book about it. It was unbelievable. I'm reading it, and I'm like, oh, my God, oh, my God. So you want to spend a minute about it? Peter is actually Paul Landy, which he doesn't even care if I use his name. Oh. But they made me change his name in the book. But Paul is Paul's –
• 15:50
  episode, I have his YouTube interview is actually on my YouTube. So if people want to watch the YouTube interview, it's on my YouTube. I just released it a couple of weeks ago. And there's actually an Instagram post where I just did a little Instagram post where he actually was like hugging me. I did like a little reel and he was like, she's literally my favorite person on the planet. So that's like from like two weeks ago. You can check it out. Give it a quick
• 16:18
  Overview of that Because it's I mean It's bananas What his mom His mom Did to him
• 16:24
  his mom. And I just love Paul so much. I mean, it's Peter in the book because the publishers made me change all the names. So, but is, you know, you're dealing with it. My book is it's postal press, but it's distributed by Simon and Schuster. So, you know, I'm dealing with big time publishers here. So they, you know, but yeah,
• 16:53
  This was one of those cases that just... I ate, breathed, slept for four years. I mean, I just...
• 17:08
  Oh my gosh. This case was so much of a part of my life. And I was so happy because of the outcome. I mean, it was really such a powerful... This could be a Netflix series. This really people need to go watch the YouTube and or listen. It's a podcast as well. But anyway, what happened was...
• 17:32
  He has a mother who is a complete narcissist, complete narcissist. And then he was married and has two sons.
• 17:45
  And his mother basically is, and his mother's married to a surgeon. His mother was controlling the family through finances, but then he is independently financially, you know, fine. So what happened was he was going through a divorce with his wife and he's,
• 18:10
  During the divorce, the mother aligns with the wife. And so the wife moves in with the mother. And the mother starts his own mother. Let's not say the mother-in-law. His own mother. The wife moves in with his own mother.
• 18:35
  His own mother starts paying for his soon-to-be ex-wife's attorney's fees against him. Against him. And I'm like, what's wrong with this dude? Because I'm representing him. So I'm thinking, what is wrong with this dude? You know, like, what am I not seeing over here?
• 19:00
  So at one point, because he partially owned, you know, he owned several restaurants, but one of the restaurants he partially owned with a cousin who was a great guy. And so at one point I even brought his cousin in alone and I'm like, come on, give me the straight stuff. Give me the straight dope. Like, what's wrong with my client? Like, come on, I need to know. Like, yeah.
• 19:27
  He's like, nothing. She's crazy. The mother's crazy. And I'm like, okay. And so anyway, it was insane what this mother and this wife was doing to this guy. They...
• 19:44
  concocted all these stories about him, that he was an abuser, that he was an abuser of his wife, that he was an abuser of his children, even though they both admitted that during the marriage that he was against any kind of corporal punishment. They said that he was abusing the kids when he had them.
• 20:07
  that he violated the domestic violence injunction that they got against him. They even got a private investigator to sleep with the wife and then actually got him to say that he violated the injunction by saying that he was near the house
• 20:35
  But we didn't know that she was sleeping with the dude. So all of a sudden they're saying that he violated the injunction by saying he was near the house. And he's like, what the hell are you talking about? I wasn't near the house. But now he's like being arrested for being near the house and he's in jail. And it was like, oh, my God, this crazy stuff was happening.
• 20:59
  And then we found out that he was like, the mother was paying the prosecutor. I mean, it was insane, insane. This wasn't the one where she showed up at the house to the end. Oh, yes. So at the end, he videotape, he was videotaping her and she starts beating him. Yes. So she, the night before the domestic violence hearing, she shows up at the house and
• 21:28
  She shows up at the house, lets herself into his house. And because she had left the marital home. So he's at home. She lets herself in and he's like, what the hell are you doing here? And she's like, I need medicine for the kid. And he's like...
• 21:45
  Now, remember, she's staying with the parents. The father is a surgeon. So, like, why does she need to come back to the house to get medicine for the kid? To start shit. Yeah. So she shows up at the house, picks up a knife.
• 22:00
  And he's like, starts videoing, like, you know, because he's worried. So she starts taking stuff from his closet, starts throwing it on the floor and he's videoing. And then the next thing you know, she starts attacking him and he's on the video going, I'm being attacked. I'm being attacked. And she yells, yes, you're being attacked. You're being attacked. She yells that in the video.
• 22:27
  And so the next thing you know, he calls the cops. She gets arrested. She goes to jail. But then two weeks later, files for a domestic violence injunction and gets it. Gets it.
• 22:48
  So, I mean, it was crazy all of the things that happened in this thing. And it's four years. So this is what happens when you get involved in a narcissist. Four years, turns your family, does he still talk to his mother or is that – Oh, no. No. No. Good for him. It was so crazy because he would get these voicemails from her saying, you know, I'm going to try to have your girlfriend deported and all this other stuff because she was – you know, he was –
• 23:16
  dating this girl from the Czech Republic or whatever. And then she would leave these voicemails saying, you know, love you, mom. And then she would go, oh, my God.
• 23:29
  Dude, my producers are falling on the floor over there. It's like, you're making this up. So listen, by the way, this is what's in the book, this whole story. So if you didn't want to, it's not even, this is real life things. So what do they say? Smart people learn from their mistakes? We won everything. We won. We won everything. You let the cat out of the bag. Of course you won, Rebecca. You're a badass.
• 23:53
  But you used the slay method on it. I swear to you. Slay method. He got full custody. And the judge actually in the order said, you know, and I quoted, I don't know if you've got the quote right there. I can pull it up over here. But what the judge said in the order, basically, like that we find that the mother interfered. The mother wasn't allowed to see the kids for like a year.
• 24:20
  It's insanity. And the moral of the story is this is what happens when you get involved in these type people. So that's just in chapter three, guys. We've only made it in chapter three. So this is so good. And they said, why smart people learn from their mistakes. Wise people learn from other people's mistakes. You don't want to deal with. Think of the money that was wasted and the brain cells that were wasted on that four years. I swear to smack dab in the middle of reading this. I'm believing I have had several narcissists in my life at one time or another.
• 24:49
  Because being an empath and successful, besides being an empath and successful, what could I be doing to attract them into my life? Hmm.
• 25:00
  Well, you need to know the signs. You need to know the signs. And that is, I mean, to attract them into your life. The main thing is that when you see what is happening, which is that they look for people who have vulnerabilities, vulnerabilities. And this is what I talk about.
• 25:28
  When you stand in authentic power, when you know who you are, when you are a person who is fully aligned with source and fully aligned with strength, they don't come near you. They look for people who have...
• 25:53
  vulnerabilities where they can kind of prey on, you know, I can help you with that. I can be, you know, this, that, or the other thing. Like, because they are looking for openings.
• 26:11
  you know, oh, you look like you're alone here at this party, or you look like I can help you with that, or I can bring you these contacts into this business, or I can, you know, save you from this. You know, like they start off with, I can...
• 26:39
  you know, be your soulmate. I can be the most charming, charismatic. They're very good at mirror neurons. Everything that you want, they will align themselves to be. Very good at reading
• 27:10
  be repelling them. That's their kryptonite. What you're really saying is, yeah, what you're really saying is love yourself. So you don't need anything from anybody else. And I love that. And I will, I want to give you more credit because you have so many key phrases for disarming narcissists. There's resources for vetting attorneys. There's all kinds of things. It's on a slay the bully.com forward slash resources.
• 27:34
  So go check that out. It'll be in the show notes. Slaythebully.com forward slash resources. And there's all kinds of how to disarm. There's the slay method. There's how to vet attorneys. She provides all kinds of things. Are the definitions of gaslighting and love bombing and all that in there, or is they just in the book? Yeah.
• 27:58
  Because that's what you were just explaining. That's all in the book. Yes. I mean, you know, obviously I want people to buy the book and all of the resources are really more meant to kind of help people as they're kind of going through the book, because obviously I want people to come buy the book, you know, so. Sorry to cover so much of it, but it's so good. I just spoke to me so well. I'm so glad that you're doing this. I think it's fantastic.
• 28:25
  You gave some, so I usually ask a lot of questions about the author, but this is just everybody's encountered narcissism. Everybody thinks that they know what love bombing is, what gaslighting is, what, you know, every little phrase it is with dating and it's thrown around so much that this is creating awareness. You said something about 15% of people have this. I find that to be low.
• 28:50
  Well, I mean, and that statistic is actually inclusive. It's really more...
• 28:57
  that includes people who just don't have empathy. So it's like, I think it's more like 7% of people are narcissistic and this is narcissistic personality disorder. And then if you include other disorders that don't have empathy, such as antisocial personality disorder, bipolar disorder and other disorders that lack empathy, then it's up to 15%. But that's actual personality disorders. And,
• 29:27
  So I, you know, as far as people who are narcissistic or, you know,
• 29:33
  you know, have traits or tendencies, remember it's a spectrum. So if you are kind of close to the end of that spectrum there, it's probably, probably a lot more than that. I mean, you know, cause these are not people that go, you know, let me get tested in an office or let's, let's go have a conversation about, you know, me. They're not self-aware people who want to go, you know,
• 29:58
  have conversations in the therapist's office. You know, it's all the empaths that go flooding the therapist's office as a result of the drama, trauma, chaos that they cause. Right?
• 30:09
  So you had an excellent quote, and I'm going to literally read it word for word because everybody needs to hear this. This is, I quote, fear. You and I are going on a ride together. I would like for you to not come along, but I realize that's not possible. I realize you're coming, so I guess you can come. But you have to sit in the back seat. You definitely do not get to pick the music. You definitely do not get to talk. And most importantly, you do not get to touch the steering wheel.
• 30:38
  Beautiful. I have a 14 year old daughter and I just, I constantly am stressing self-love and that she can get everything she needs internally and external validation. I read that to her and, and, and, you know, it's tough to be my kid because I'm fearless as you know, you've met me, but that I want everybody to, to go and read the book just for that quote. Could you tell us how you came up with that?
• 31:04
  Yes. So I had read a book by Elizabeth Gilbert, who talked about her process for dealing with when she approaches new projects. And it was kind of a modification of her
• 31:25
  you know, how she dealt with, you know, starting new things or something. And she talked about how she was like, you know, I would like to just eradicate it completely. And then I also had read...
• 31:40
  Oh, it was The Untethered Soul. So good. Yes. And it was sort of like I took both of those books and kind of put them together and came up with this...
• 31:55
  thing myself and thought, okay, this is going to be my process because I'm not getting rid of fear completely. I want to get rid of it completely, but it's just not going to go away completely. So I'm coming up with this sort of hybrid of fear and I are going to have a conversation when I am feeling it because it's not going away completely, but we're going to just have a little conversation and this is how it's going to go.
• 32:25
  You don't get to drive. You get to sit in the back. And you get to shut up. This is where you get to do it. You sit in the back. You don't get to touch the radio. You don't get to steer. This is how it's going.
• 32:42
  It's just fire and having a daughter. It brings me to other questions that I didn't even write. Are most, if you did male and female, where does it, where does it, are there more male narcissists than there are female or is it equal? I think that there's probably more male grandiose narcissists because, you know, just as if you look at how society allows for
• 33:12
  you know, males to be a little bit more boastful, you know, a little bit more bragging about their accomplishments. I think that as far as females go, I mean, I think there's probably a lot of male covert narcissists too, but I think females, there's probably a lot of female covert narcissists as well. I mean,
• 33:39
  You know, where they're more passive aggressive, they act more like the victim, they use guilt. Wait, let's stop right there, because you know what, I just realized that we got off on a tangent talking and we never answered that question of the three types of narcissists. Covert, grandiose, and malignant. Would you just spend a minute to tell us about those? Because it's, I had no idea there was, I thought it was just one type.
• 34:00
  Yeah, I didn't know anything about it either. Oh, wait, wait, hold on a second. I got a quote for that. Where is it? I don't know shit about fuck. Where did it go? Wait, didn't know shit about fuck when it came to narcissism. That's Rebecca Zungism.
• 34:22
  It was Ruth Ozark, you know, from anybody who ever watched the Ozark. It was, no, Ruth Langmore, sorry. Ruth Langmore. It was, I was quoting her. I'm so sorry. I'm all over the board because I just, I couldn't.
• 34:42
  It just needs to be made aware of because it's a problem. It is an issue. And everybody gets thrown around as he's a narcissist or he has narcissistic traits or tendencies. And I heard, I think it was Ed Milet said it one time, like,
• 34:57
  Alpha males, successful alpha males have a little bit of narcissism in them. I try to separate my ego, but I still feel myself sometimes having narcissistic traits. Do I think I'm a narcissist? No. I mean, there's no doubt about it.
• 35:15
  I mean, I think we all do. And, you know, I think it's just a matter of being self-aware. I mean, there's no doubt about it. But, you know, do you have empathy? That's the key, right? I just told you I had empathy for the narcissist that feel nothing inside. I mean, that tells you right there. And are you self-aware? But I think that –
• 35:44
  The types are, and I certainly didn't know anything about this either at all, but I mean, I thought a narcissist before all this began was more of an, you know, forgive me for, I'm not trying to be political at all, but I'm just going to use this to give people more of a visual, was more of a Donald Trump type.
• 36:09
  The kind that comes in, tells everybody how great they are, more of a fill the room, want the best table, that kind of a personality type. That's what I thought a narcissist was in my mind at the time.
• 36:30
  And so when a person pointed out to me that the person that I had been dealing with and also a family member was a covert narcissist, I actually, they said covert passive aggressive narcissist. I thought, what is that? I don't know what that, like, what is it? That sounds like, you know.
• 36:55
  I, I, an alien of some sort, like that didn't sound like anything to me, you know? So I thought, no, that's not, no. And, and I thought, I think the person is just really insecure, but not a narcissist. And, but then I started learning about it, reading about it. And I thought, oh my God.
• 37:18
  that's exactly what this person is. And then I started reading, reading, reading, reading a whole lot more. And I was just blown away. So a covert narcissist and both all types of narcissists are the same, like what I described at the beginning, but it's just how they manifest themselves. And so a covert narcissist is, is one that's much more passive aggressive. They, they, they show up more humble, more, everybody's loves them.
• 37:48
  You know, they could be humanitarians, they could be preachers, they could be doctors, lawyers, you know, all of the things. But underneath, right underneath that veneer is a person who's extremely jealous, rageful, angry.
• 38:08
  you know, prideful, envious. And, um, you know, so they're extremely passive aggressive and they do little things. They just say little things. They it's, um, absolutely. I'll do that for you. And then they just don't do it. Or they inadvertently leave you off an email chain. Oh,
• 38:32
  that. Oh, I don't know. I don't know how that happened. Or they smear people and they couch it in care.
• 38:43
  oh, I'm just so concerned about Susie's drinking. I just worried for her, things like that. And it is always sort of this plausible deniability. I call it clean hands because they're very good at couching it in a way that
• 39:06
  you know, it probably won't come back to them. And to me, covert narcissists are the worst ones because they stay under the radar, but it's death by a thousand cuts. But the worst was because they're playing the victim the most too.
• 39:22
  Play the victim. They play the victim. And so people feel sorry for them. And oh, I can't believe that happened to you. Oh my God, they did that to you. The smear campaign is what I would hit home for me when you said behind the scenes, they've already, they started the smear campaign on you way before you even thought they did.
• 39:44
  way before you even realize it's happening. Right. And, and, and, you know, and then that inadvertent things, those inadvertent, you know, oh, I, they, they, all of a sudden they were, they're meeting with people and you don't even know that it's happening or, you know, and then just like the little conversation.
• 40:06
  cuts, you know, like my, my daughter dated a guy, for example, and he said something like, our kids are going to have the best of all worlds. They're going to have my brains and your work ethic, you know, like things like that. Like they just, we didn't even say where, where can they pre-order the book right now?
• 40:31
  They can preorder the book, slaythebully.com. And I don't know. Is that where you, is that where you, you know, it'll be out within, you know, I'm not sure exactly, but it might be, it's probably going to be out after because it's just releasing Sunday, right? Your, your, the book comes out on Sunday.
• 40:46
  Well, the live launches, Slay the Bully launch is Saturday, and then Sunday is the live book signing. Can they get it on Amazon and whatnot? Everywhere that books are sold. When is that going to be available? October 3rd.
• 41:03
  Okay, so it'll be after that. So you'll be able to get this book by the time this airs. It'll be sometime in October. Go out and get this book. It is, I mean, you're just, you're here and we've deep dive into it. It's just, we haven't even covered half of it, not one bit. There is, I wanna get into the S.L.A.I. method that you talked about because it's very good. It's S.L.A.I. stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, you and your position. But I specifically gravitated towards leverage.
• 41:31
  Because that is how negotiations are always won. And you specifically talked about the timing and release of said leverage. Being a lawyer, tell us why that's important. And tell us about the slave method. Yeah. Well, I want to talk about leverage specifically because this is where I think my method is actually revolutionary. Because I talk about how a narcissist's brain functions.
• 42:00
  number one, and then how to create leverage using what I call diamond level supply and coal level supply. And so this is really, so SLAY stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and you. And SLAY.
• 42:19
  Strategy is creating your vision, having an action plan, which you have to have. You got to know where you're going in order to get there. And you have to have an action plan. And then within that, then you can create leverage. So leverage, you have to understand how a narcissist's brain thinks. Now...
• 42:40
  Guys, hold on right here. You're going to want it. This is the whole book right here. This is gold. Stop. Take a picture. Write down. Have notes. This is gold. If you think you're involved with a narcissist, listen to what she's about to say right now. Sorry.
• 42:57
  Yeah. So a narcissist was formed as a result of trauma. So what happened was, and this to me was just absolutely, I was floored by this. Absolutely floored by this. Yeah.
• 43:13
  So we as human beings, when we're presented with situations that are stressful, hormones get emitted, adrenaline, cortisol, things like that. So when that happens on a continuous basis, it can cause damage to the limbic system part of the brain in children. Right?
• 43:42
  So that emotional center part of the brain. And so when that happens, as children, it can cause something called narcissistic injury.
• 43:59
  So when they grow up, while that prefrontal cortex part of the brain continues to develop, that limbic system part of the brain does not. And so when narcissists are presented with situations that can cause them to be triggered, and it can be anything that even though we don't think it's rational or reasonable,
• 44:24
  To them it is. So it can be an eye roll. It can be a tone of voice. It can be nothing. It can be, you know, because the server didn't come over fast enough or whatever, you know? But normally it's because you didn't do something or whatever. All of a sudden they split. They go from black to white.
• 44:49
  It's done. Now that emotional center, that limbic system has taken over. And now that's what you're dealing with. And during that period of time, you are not dealing with rational. You are not dealing with reasonable. You're dealing with that emotional center part of their brain. And when that happens, they...
• 45:10
  they will do whatever they want and they will take themselves down to take you down during that period of time. And so you cannot communicate with them like you can a rational or reasonable person. You cannot negotiate with them like you can a rational or reasonable person.
• 45:33
  So you can't sit down with them and negotiate and go, all right, so what do we want to do? You know, we both want to save fees here. We both want to, you know, come to a reasonable conclusion. So, you know, like, and most people think.
• 45:49
  Oh, well, narcissists just want to win. That's not true. They want to manipulate you. They enjoy, they literally get a high from seeing you squirm. They love that. So you cannot rationally think about, what can I do? What is it that they want? I'll just give it to them and I'll be done because they enjoy the game.
• 46:16
  They enjoy the game of watching you squirm. So you have to create leverage. And that is going to be with that diamond level supply and that coal level supply that I talked about. Guys, I,
• 46:31
  I know why I resonate so well with this because this happened to me. And I wrote about it in my heart of the life book. And we use the slay method without even knowing about it. And it is the leverage is everything. You've got to know exactly when to release it. And it's got to be...
• 46:46
  I mean, like blammo, shock and awe, because when you watch that narcissist, like realize that their diamond level supply is just depleted, the entire air in the room goes out. I was sitting in a room with two lawyers, with multiple lawyers.
• 47:05
  I'm not gonna name names, it's in my book. And when we dropped the leverage, it was like, uh-oh. And you could just, they actually had to leave the room to regroup and knew they lost. So this method, unbeknownst to me, we used to a T, it works.
• 47:23
  Get this book. She says in her book, stop defending yourself. Just the facts and the middle finger. So what she was saying in there is once they go crazy on the crazy, do not engage. Do not even try to text. There's no rational. Just stop. And I've been there and done that. This works. That's why I am so into this book. I've been there, done that.
• 47:47
  And I wish this book was released pre-pandemic because mine happened during the pandemic. So I had to do this over Zoom and during the pandemic. It was insane. So another quote, and I'm sorry, I'm just, we have 15 minutes and I got some things I want to specifically talk to you about. I'm zooming through a couple of things and I apologize. You had a great quote here was, pay no mind to those who talk behind your back. It simply means you're two steps ahead.
• 48:14
  There's so many nuggets of brilliance in here. Talk about, I heard this on another podcast, and it's just, there's two things that you said that I just love. People think what you tell them to think and that you never leave your thoughts unsupervised
• 48:32
  And the difference between success and not is execution. Those are three Rebecca-isms that I just love. Talk about them. Some of it's in the book, but some of it's not. It's just you. Share your brilliance with the Heart and Life listeners. Well, as far as the execution goes, I mean, it's just to me, I –
• 48:57
  I find myself often frustrated with people who talk a lot about doing, but then they just don't do. And I think that, you know, I think people can get caught up a lot in analysis paralysis. I see this a lot with, especially with entrepreneurs or with people who are, you
• 49:23
  you know, they want success or maybe they're not as successful as they want to be. And I'm not talking about people who are dealing with narcissists. I'm just talking about other people. You know, I think that if you want to go anywhere in life, any journey just starts with the first step.
• 49:40
  So, you know, just go do, even if it's the smallest thing. And that's why I start with, you know, step one, don't run. Step two, make a U-turn. Step three, break free. Because it's the integrity of the process. Even if you just chunk it down to the smallest little thing and you hold yourself to account for a small thing.
• 50:06
  You know, if it's working out and you're working out and you say, okay, today my workout is I'm going to walk 20 steps and that's your workout, but just hold yourself to account for 20 steps. Then that's what you're going to do and execute on that. But just do and execute on that and hold
• 50:36
  for it. You know, I think that so many people, the reason why they're not successful is because they don't hold their word to themselves, you know? So I'm really, really, I try to be really an integrity about everything that I do to other people. Like if, if, if I tell you that
• 51:06
  It's done. You know, if I tell you, Kelly Siegel, that I'm going to send an email on, you know, to somebody on your behalf or whatever, you know that you can count on me to do that.
• 51:19
  But I also keep my words to myself. So if I say I'm going to make my bed every day, I make my bed every day. Because I just think the execution is the foundation for success. So that's my speech on execution.
• 51:37
  The reason why I asked you that is we talked a lot about, obviously we deep dove into narcissism, but this is a successful woman. This is a brilliant, brilliant mind. You've got to come back next year when it's a bestseller all over New York, and you've got everything, and we talk about you. Because I didn't get to share you. I'm going to ask you a few personal questions, but there was another thing that just...
• 52:00
  Rebecca isms that is just so good. 90% of winning begins before you walk in the room. You must believe. There's so much power in your littleness that I want you to come back. Please come back next year and we'll do this again and we'll talk all about you personally after the book has gone millions and millions of copies. But the nuggets here, people will be able to go back and re-listen to this and hear again. Let me reread those again. People will think what you tell them to think.
• 52:30
  She never leaves her thoughts unsupervised. We're going to have to talk about that one because that's a big one. Success, between success and not is execution. 90% of winning begins before you walk into a room. And then I wrote in here, again, those nine criteria,
• 52:48
  for a narcissist is a must read banana. So go back and talk about the, you don't leave your thoughts on supervised. This wasn't in the book. I just caught this from something else that you said. Yes, I did my research on you. I think you're an amazing person and I can't wait to sit with you and your husband and just deep dive into you.
• 53:07
  Yeah. So, well, the thoughts on supervising, I almost sort of started saying it as a joke because, you know, I used to, obviously what I did for a living was prior to this was I did high net worth divorce litigation. And so, you know, there was like,
• 53:23
  there was always like this thing about supervised visitation with the kids or whatever. And, you know, so I like used to joke about leaving my thoughts on supervised because I had, you know, I, one of the other things I say is the first negotiation that you do sometimes is with yourself in the morning for your own self-worth. And, you know, I, I think when you first open your eyes in
• 53:48
  navigate your thoughts. Right. And so I was like, I, I, I made a joke one time about, Oh, I have to, I can't leave my thoughts unsupervised because you know, they'll like go galloping off and you know, if I leave them unsupervised and they go into a bad neighborhood or ghetto or whatever. And so I have to make sure I immediately turn on, you know, a good podcast or a good audio book or something. And, you know,
• 54:17
  harness them. And so really that's what it's about is just making sure that the input is good so that the output is good. And that's what it's about, you know, because I want to keep my vibrational level high because if you keep your vibrational level high, I mean, we are beings of energy. We, we just are. And that's,
• 54:42
  just basic physics. We are made of cells. We are, you know, at the end of the day, that's what we are. And you can measure that vibrational energy. And if you want to raise your vibrational energy so that you attract better vibrational energy, you want to keep it as high as possible. So that's what I just try to do.
• 55:04
  Because you'll attract better people into your life. It'll attract better things into your life. And if you want more joy, you have to keep your level as high as possible. So that's what that's about.
• 55:17
  You're remarkable. I always say thoughts are magical lies because it's usually not, it's not the truth. You're going to see Amberlee this weekend, our mutual friend Amberlee Lago. She talks about attitude of gratitude over and over. She's brilliant at it. So you cannot be around her and not be positive. So I do the same thing in the morning.
• 55:36
  She is fabulous. Her episode of Heart and Life is going to air here soon, and it was just fire. So I told her I'm going to infiltrate the girl gang because I said, you guys are being sexist. I'm in a girl's name. I'm coming to hang out. She goes, you can come.
• 55:54
  I got invited to the girl gang. I love it. So Katherine Gordon or Katherine Gordon is one of my BFFs too. I know the three of us are like really close and the Gordon family. Yeah. Yeah. I know of her. She's probably like, why is this guy always I'm I've been introduced to John several times and he's coming on the podcast and he's just he's the person that got me into this stuff. I was I read the energy bus is the first one. Well, maybe a man search for meaning was my first book, but the energy bus was the one that really got me going.
• 56:21
  And yes, that family. And then now the daughter is just, they're amazing. I couldn't even think, if my daughter falls in the footsteps and does what John's does and with Catherine and their book together, I've read every one of John's books. So it's amazing.
• 56:38
  We're, we're, we're in some good company if we're talking about them and you're going to have a blast this weekend and I'm going to, I'm going to send you so much love and vibration. Oh, she is. I'm headed to, I'm headed to Naples where I would have come and joined you guys. Cause that's a, that sounds like fun. We're going to talk, we're going to end with some personal things, just a couple of little small things. What do you want your legacy to be?
• 57:03
  Oh, I mean, other than my children, I would say it's this. It's...
• 57:09
  Well, you know, I founded a foundation with Lindsay Snyder who owns In-N-Out, which is for legal aid. And it's helping people break free from toxic relationships and find their power. It's, I know that this is what I'm meant to do. I know that it is to help people break free from toxic relationships and create new beginnings and new futures. Yeah.
• 57:39
  And whether that's professional or personally and find their strength and know who they are. I know that that's what I'm meant to do. I love it. Let's go another question. If you're offered a mulligan in life, what would you do over? Gosh.
• 58:10
  It makes me sad is that my older children had to go through a divorce. You know, I mean, except that I wouldn't have the life that I have today and I wouldn't have, you know, it's just that I, you know, I think that everything is unfolds the way that it's meant to, you know, so. How are you doing, by the way? They're great. What are their ages now?
• 58:40
  They're in their 30s. You know, they're in their early 30s. And then, like, I have... Then I have the 21-year-old. So, you know, like, they're grown. Everybody's grown. And they're healthy and functional. They're not traumatized.
• 59:01
  No, my oldest one, he has an MBA JD, but he works with me. He's like the CFO for my company now. Boom! Yeah, and he lives in New York City. And he's like, yeah, he's like 30, 32. And then 30, 31, 32. And then I have the middle one. Well, actually, the middle one, you can go see when you're in Naples. He's the manager of Bricktop. Yeah.
• 59:28
  um did you ever go to bricktop in naples no what is it is a restaurant yes a huge restaurant in waterside oh i'll have to check it out yeah yeah um it's like one of the most popular restaurants in brick in in waterside it's huge um and he's the manager there um yeah and i want to be i want to be your kid man my mom was uh
• 59:51
  you know, you were fighting, you're just a badass, man. And I'm not saying that because I just, I think you're amazing. And I can't wait to help you more and more and get to know you more and more. We're going to end it with a law question since you're a lawyer. If you could create one law, what would it be and why? A universal law that we all had to follow. What would it be and why?
• 1:00:17
  That is a good question. Get therapy so you don't feel self-aware. Yeah. I mean, I would just definitely say that we have to keep our word to each other.
• 1:00:32
  Oh my God, that's mine. There's so many things you said that are exactly what I would say. Mine is tell the truth. Everybody has to tell the truth. It's being easy or nice. It's simple. Keeping your word to yourself. I don't negotiate with myself. And it's all about self-love. My first chapter of my book is called Self-Awareness. So next time I see you, I'll bring you a book. Integrity, like integrity.
• 1:00:53
  Without integrity, nothing works. So it would definitely be about integrity, something in integrity. I mean, we're loving each other, but it would be love, but with integrity.
• 1:01:06
  I mean, if we have integrity in keeping our word, like in the Bible, it says in the, in the, you know, at the beginning there was word. And, you know, if, if we all stuck with that, what would, how much better of a place that would, this would be. I started off saying you're. And the word was, and the word was God, right? Yeah.
• 1:01:26
  I started off saying you're beautiful inside and out and we could go three hours. I've still so many more questions, but we only have an hour. This was great. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you feel compelled to share?
• 1:01:39
  I get my book, make sure to go get it. You know, I mean, the one thing I did want to go back to was that quote that you asked me about, I started to talk about, which was, um, the you and you alone define your value. Um, and I want to just talk about that for really, really quickly. Please do. We have all the time in the world. I just, I'm trying to be cognizant of yours cause you've been interviewing all day. So go ahead.
• 1:02:07
  Yeah, because I actually had been practicing law. I want to talk about how I came to that quote. I had been practicing law for eight years, and then I had gone to be a wealth advisor at Morgan Stanley for a couple of years. And then I went back to practicing law because a friend of mine was giving up her law practice. It was like a small law practice, and she was basically dumping it in my lap.
• 1:02:37
  And I went back to my business coach at the time and I said, oh, everybody in Naples is going to think I'm such a flake. She was a lawyer and then she was a wealth advisor and then back to being a lawyer. And I said, everybody's going to think I'm such a flake.
• 1:02:54
  And, you know, Naples is a very affluent community and very judgy. And, you know, I really hate to like show up as such a flake. And she said, well, people will think what you tell them to think. She said, you can tell them to think that you're a flake.
• 1:03:12
  Or you can tell them to think that you are the only lawyer in town that has a wealth background. So therefore you are actually more qualified than any other family law attorney in town. Which story would you like to tell? And I was like, Oh, maybe I'll tell that story. And she said, people will think what you tell them to think.
• 1:03:41
  And so I decided to tell that story. And within two years, I was representing billionaires and celebrities, including Arnold Schwarzenegger's goddaughter. And I got to travel with him all over Europe. And I was representing, you know, all kinds of really, really amazing people. And...
• 1:04:00
  people that were very clearly not going to be hiring somebody who was a flake. But had I shown up and like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, I know I switched careers a lot. You know, if I had been like that, then that's what people would have seen.
• 1:04:15
  But I showed up in my power and I was like, I'm the only one that has a wealth background. So therefore I'm more powerful. You know, so people will think what you tell them to think. And that's not just in negotiations. That's in any area of your life. And narcissists will respect that. They will see that too. But absolutely.
• 1:04:38
  That same thing goes for anybody, for anybody. People will think what you tell them to think. Your aura, your presence shows up. So that's the lesson I want to leave people. This last 10 minutes, you got to go back and relist to it. It was fire. There's the depth to you. It just...
• 1:05:01
  The book itself was fire. It came across, but the last 10 minutes of your knowledge, I thank you for that. And I love you for it. And I just want to reiterate, 90% of the winning begins before you walk in the room. Mindset is everything.
• 1:05:16
  Rebecca, thank you for putting this book out there. I'm going to send you so much love and positivity for it to do really, really well. Please kiss my friends that you're going to see, our friends that you see. And you have my cell phone number. Reach out to me the next time that you're in Naples so we can get cigars. I want to meet the husband. And I want to remind everybody that I do...
• 1:05:38
  my best to respond to every comment. So if you want to see more of something or less of something on all social platforms, let me know. Each and every episode is sponsored by National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with, delivering peace of mind with technology every day. Visit trustntm.com for more. Until next week, be harder than life. Rebecca, I love you. Thank you. Congratulations. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.
• 1:06:05
  Thank you for listening. Please rate and subscribe to Harder Than Life, and let's take this to the next level. Get connected at the links below.