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"Putin's Price Hike." (with Elizabeth Warren!) · Pod Save America

• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: On today's show, President Biden bans Russian oil and labels
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: higher energy costs Putin's price hike. Senator Elizabeth Warren is
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: here to talk about Russian oligarchs and crypto bros. And
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy tells Marjorie Taylor Greene that she's not allowed
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: to attend any more events sponsored by white nationalist Putin
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: fans this year. Before we start, don't miss Offline this weekend.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I will be at South by Southwest in Austin interviewing
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Greg Daniels, the creator of The Office and Parks and Recreation,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: about how digital streaming has changed television. and how that
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: shaped the creation of his current Amazon show called Upload.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: It's a fantastic show. It's about uploading your consciousness to
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: the cloud after you die so you can live forever
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: in the digital afterlife. What do you think, Dan? You
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: up for that?
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: It sounds sort of like Facebook's plan for the metaverse.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: It's a little metaverse-ish, yes. It's a really funny show, though,
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: and quite good. If you're at South by Southwest, you
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: can come to the show in person. If not, you
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: can find it on Offline's feed. We have our own
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: feed now. Please subscribe if you haven't already. Just search
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Offline with Jon Favreau wherever you get your podcasts and
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: smash that subscribe button, as Dan and Elijah would say. See,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I quoted you there. I paraphrased you.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you for the credit, yes.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Proper attribution.
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Let's get to the news. There were a lot of
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: developments this week in Putin's horrific invasion of Ukraine and
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: But the one with the biggest implications for our own
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: politics is Joe Biden's decision to ban imports of Russian oil, gas,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: and coal, a move that he said will target, quote,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the main artery of Russia's economy and deal a powerful
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: blow to Putin's war machine. The president also acknowledged that
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: the ban will lead to higher gas prices, which hit
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: a new record this week, and promised to do everything
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: he can to minimize what he's calling Putin's price hike.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: But in the least surprising news of the week, the
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: same Republican politicians who pushed Biden to ban Russian oil,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: which was almost all of them, are now blaming Biden
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: for the higher gas prices. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy said, quote,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: And the brightest bulb in the briefing room, Fox News'
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Peter Doocy. Why did you guys decide to rebrand the
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: rising gas prices as the hashtag Putin price hike?
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, if you want to use that on Fox,
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: I welcome that.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I think it'll get a lot of airtime. If you
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: guys knew for months that this was going to be
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: the hashtag Putin price hike, why are we just.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Hearing that now?
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: Well, Peter, if we go back to six months ago,
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: I don't think anybody was predicting we would be exactly
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: where we are as it relates to Russia and Ukraine.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: As you know, that events in the world, including the
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: invasion by Russia of a foreign country, does prompt instability
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: and volatility in the global oil market.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you tell us months ago? that Vladimir Putin
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: would invade Ukraine, which is what you ultimately told us
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: as soon as the intelligence let you know and no
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: one at Fox believed it.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: What did you know and when did you know about
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: the hashtag?
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: He is, man. You know, Joe Biden's hot mic moment
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: about Peter Doocy. Correct. Correct, Joe Biden. You were correct.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: So when we interviewed Ron Klain last week, right here
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: on this very podcast, He seems skeptical that Biden would
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: ban Russian oil. He gave us a bunch of reasons
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: why he was skeptical of that. What do you think changed?
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Well, two things. First, it became very clear that while
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the sanctions to date had isolated Russia, had devastated their economy,
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: it had done nothing or very little at least to
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: stop their aggression, sort of the horrendous tactics they were
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: using in Ukraine. In fact, maybe even got worse, the
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: shelling of civilians, the breaking of ceasefires. And so it
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: seemed pretty clear that that both at home and abroad,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: there was a sense that we needed to use every
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: tool in the toolbox short of military intervention to try
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: to stop what is happening there, because it is absolutely horrendous.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: The second thing is that despite the very clear impact
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: this would have on the economy and gas prices, there
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: was very rapid bipartisan momentum for a ban on Russian
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: oil imports. Speaker Pelosi came out very quickly for it.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: There was a Murkowski mansion bill. And it became pretty
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: clear that Republicans were at least going to sign off
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: on this idea, which, at least from a political perspective,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: is theoretically, and I really emphasize theoretically, makes it less
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: politically perilous than simply doing it on your own.
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, this happens often when there is a crisis,
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: either globally or at home, particularly one where innocent people
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: are dying. Yeah. people, American people just want their leaders
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: to do something about it. They don't want to be told, well,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: we've done everything we can and now we just have
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: to wait and you have to watch this horrific carnage
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: on your screens and we're not going to be able
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: to do anything. So there's a real sort of do
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: something bias when there's a crisis like this that happens.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: And I think people latch onto the next option they
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: hear about. And in this case, it was any option
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: short of, you know, full scale war with a nuclear power.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Congress was moving towards a big as you mentioned, bipartisan
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: vote on a ban. I believe the House is still
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: going to take that vote. Why do you think Biden
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: decided to make his move before Congress voted?
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I assume it is to do it on his terms
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: and with his timing, as opposed to seeming like he
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: was dragged to a position by Congress. I think it
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: also probably helps with having Biden out front doing it,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: probably helps with rallying the rest of the world to
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: do something similar. I know that Great Britain was looking
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: at some things. Some other countries are. It's easier for
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: the United States to do this than other countries because
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: we are less dependent on Russian energy imports than Europe
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: and others. But having the president out there leading and
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: not having the legislative body do it is probably stronger
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: politically and diplomatically is my guess.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. There's also, I mean, there's a policy reason, which
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: is now he can sort of turn them on. He
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: turned on the ban when he wanted. He can shut
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: it off when he wants. And then I do think
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: the political reason, what you were getting to is He
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: wants to look, we've talked about this a lot on
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: this podcast, he wants to look like he's leading and
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: taking action and not getting pushed into something, not being
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: dragged into a decision by Congress and not sort of, again,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: he wants to shape events and not be shaped by them.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal poll found that 79% of Americans favor
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: a ban on Russian oil imports, even if they increase
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: energy prices in the U.S. That was the poll in question.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Do you believe that? And how long do you think
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: that support lasts?
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: Do I believe the people who told the Wall Street
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: Journal pollsters that believed it when they said it? Yes,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I do. Do I believe that that is actually going
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: to manifest itself as prices continue to go up? No,
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: I do not. And I'm very sympathetic to the voters
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: in this situation. First, we know there is almost no
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: issue in American politics that is more impactful than gas prices.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: It's an inelastic budget item. You have to drive to work.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: You have to pick up your kids from school. You can't.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: cut it. And at a time in which the vast
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: majority of American families are struggling to get by, if
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: gas prices go up, something else has to get cut, right?
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: It could be groceries. It could be a vacation. It
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: could be clothes for their kids or whatever it is.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: It really hurts. And voters get mad, right? You can
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: plot high gas prices with diminished presidential approval ratings almost
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: on top of each other throughout history. I think there's
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: also a bigger issue here that goes beyond gas prices,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: which is America has been at war for this entire century.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: And other than the military, who we have asked tremendous
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: untold burdens of, the rest of Americans have been asked
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: to sacrifice nothing. Famously, George W. Bush implored Americans to
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: go shopping after 9-11. That's how we could help the
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: war effort. You didn't have to cut back or anything.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: And so the idea that we haven't asked them to–
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: almost no living Americans have been asked to sacrifice anything
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: for a war. let alone a war that American troops
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: are not fighting in. And so the idea that we're
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: going to be able to go to the American people
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: and say, yes, I know your neighbors, your cousins, your
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: family fought in Afghanistan and Iraq for decades, and we
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: asked you to do nothing. We didn't raise taxes to
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: pay for the war. We didn't cut back federal spending
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: to pay for the war. We put the whole thing
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: on the credit card. We told you to go about
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: your normal lives. But now here, because this war in
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Europe between Russia and Ukraine, as horrendous as it is,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: we're going to ask you to make this sacrifice. I
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: think it's going to be a very, very hard sell.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: I also think we have asked people to sacrifice for
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: the last two years because of the pandemic. So there's
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: been a lot of sacrifice asked of the American people
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: over the last several years. But look, I think back
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: to the polling question, you know, people, this is very basic,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: but people want to help people who are in trouble.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: And that's a good impulse. And I'm sure people who
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: answer the question say, oh, this is one way we
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: can help. Also, Putin is a bully and a villain.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: And Americans like to stand up to bullies and villains
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: and feel that America is strong and not weak. You know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: that's that's a very important impulse as well. So I
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: think those two things, both the good impulse to want
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: to help other people and also to want to take
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: it to a dictator who's who's, you know, trying to
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: push America around. People say, yeah, I'll pay a few
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: more cents in gas for that. But people have also
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: been conditioned by social media to believe that war media
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: cycles last as long as any other media cycle. A
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: couple days and then we're on to the next thing.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: And I think ask that question again in a couple
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: months if, God forbid, this war drags on a couple
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: more months or, God forbid, years. And it could be
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: a very different story.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: And I think there's one more element. This is not
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: happening in a vacuum, right? The cost of everything else
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: is up too.
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: It's not like food prices are low and gas prices
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: are high. Inflation, just a new report today, inflation's at
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: another four decade or so high. And so the ability to,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: even if you are willing to sacrifice to do it,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: and I think it is worth noting just how unify
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: the American people have been on behalf of the Ukrainians.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: People are engaged with this. They are paying attention to it.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: It will, I think, sort of belie what we naturally
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: assume Americans would respond to foreign affairs. It's pretty remarkable
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: and impressive. But it's not sacrifices a lot of Americans
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: can afford. And so that's obviously going to come at some,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: is going to lead to some anger at some point.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: What do you think of the Putin's price hike branding?
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, it's easy to like sort of
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: to mock it or say, you know, it's hashtag sloganeering
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: or whatever else. But, you know, it is sometimes it's
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: better just to say the thing, right? And the thing
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: is that why are gas prices up? And it's because
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Putin is invading Ukraine. That is why. And so you
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: might as well say it. And if you can get
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: a little over and over, get a little alliteration that'll work.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: You can't stop there, right? Sometime we'll, you know, we'll
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: talk about this a little bit later in the pod,
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: but the story is more important than slogan. And so
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: that Putin's price, I can be the end of the story,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: but it's not the whole story.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: It was interesting to me that they didn't go with
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: something like democracy tax or freedom tax. And, and the
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: reason I'm sure they didn't is they don't want to
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: focus on what they're asking people to sacrifice. Cause that
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: is not very popular. They want to focus on the
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: extremely unpopular villain who is Vladimir Putin. His, Despite what
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: you may hear from Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump here
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and there, Vladimir Putin has an approval rating of like,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: you know, 5% in America. So he's almost a universally
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: hated figure in this country. And by focusing on him
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: and the fact that it's his fault, this invasion is
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: his doing, and the repercussions from this invasion, be it
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: the deaths of innocent civilians in Ukraine or the repression
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: of the Russian people, or gas prices going up in
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: the United States, or by the way, like global economic instability, which,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: you know, we've basically cut off Russia from the global economy,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't come without consequences either. Like, we're going
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: to all feel the effects of the fact that Russia
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: has been completely cut off from the global economy, you know,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: just like we felt the effects of, various countries getting
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: sick at various times during the pandemic and disrupting global
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: commerce and supply chains. Like that's what happens in a
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: global economy. And there's nothing that we can necessarily do
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: about that, that we can try our best to mitigate
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: the damage. Republican politicians are correctly claiming the gas prices
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: were rising before Putin invaded Ukraine, but incorrectly claiming that
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: it's because Joe Biden didn't approve the Keystone pipeline and
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: paused new leasing for oil and gas drilling on public
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: land and water. Mike Pence's super PAC is spending $ 10
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: million on a false ad campaign targeting vulnerable House Democrats
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: on the issue. Let's take a listen.
• 13:37
  Speaker 6: Before Russian bombs began to rain on Ukraine, before hundreds
• 13:41
  Speaker 6: of innocent Ukrainians lost their lives, a horrific decision had
• 13:45
  Speaker 6: already been made. Joe Biden caved to the radical environmentalists
• 13:49
  Speaker 6: and stopped America's Keystone Pipeline and dramatically increased Americans' dependence
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: on Russian oil, endangering America's security. and helping Russia fund
• 14:00
  Speaker 6: their invasion. Call Congresswoman Axne and tell her to support
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: America's security instead of Russia's terror.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: What did you think of that? Did you like the
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: explosions and the faint screams in the background? Do you
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: think they made their point there, Dan?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: I can't believe that our producers did not include the
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: preamble to that ad, which says, I'm Mike Pence, I
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: approve of this ad, and please don't hang me.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I thought of that joke, and I used that joke
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: in quotes, but I thought of that in basically the
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: middle of the night last night, and I was like,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I'm definitely going to remember this in the morning.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: What's the truth here, Dan? What's the truth? Because I've
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: had some people in my life be like, hey, why
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't Joe Biden just boost domestic production? I'm for climate change, too,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: and we've got to transition to renewable energy, but aren't
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: the Republicans right that we should just ramp up energy
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: production in the short term? So what do you say
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: to a relative or friend who said that?
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Well, John, I have some news for you that it's
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: going to come as quite a surprise. Did you know
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: that the average annual domestic crude oil production during Joe
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Biden's presidency was higher than the average annual domestic crude
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: oil production during Donald Trump's presidency? And it is higher
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: than any presidency in recent memory.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: You know I did, but that's only because I prepared
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: for this podcast.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, this is a rhetorical exercise for the listeners. Like,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Don't read the fucking stage directions here, okay?
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to answer your question.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: It's not a fucking quiz, right? I'm not trying to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: trick you. So one, for better or for worse, domestic
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: oil production is up. For better or for worse, domestic
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: natural gas production is up. The specific things that Republicans
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: point to where Joe Biden has pushed back on domestic
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: oil production, like on federal lands, like on pipelines, like
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the Keystone Pipeline, are things that manifest themselves over the
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: long term. They would do nothing to deal with oil
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: supply now or gas prices now. It is something over
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: the long term when the reality of what we're trying
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: to do is to transition off of these fossil fuels
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: over the long term.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: If you opened up every square inch of the United
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: States for oil and gas drilling right now, you would
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: not feel the effects on the oil supply for forever. Three, four,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: five years from now. You would feel nothing until then
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: because that's how long the process takes. It is complete garbage.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: The Keystone Pipeline, as Jen Psaki pointed out during her briefing,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: is a pipeline. It carries oil. It does not produce
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: more oil. That's the other– these fucking.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: And the majority of oil from the Keystone Pipeline will
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: likely go abroad because of the type of.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: Oil it is.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: The fight over the Keystone Pipeline, by the way, the
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: real Republican argument for the Keystone Pipeline is they were
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: trying to say that the few jobs that Keystone created
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: were outweighed all of the many risks to the environment
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: and the climate. That's the argument. They were not saying, oh,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: we need, the real argument is not that a Keystone
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Pipeline gives us more oil. It carries the fucking oil, idiots.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: All right. What do you think the Democratic message should
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: be on this issue? I don't think it carries the
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: oil idiots is probably the best.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's catchy. It's hashtag carry the oil idiots.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I think it is a three-pronged approach.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Three prongs. Let's hear all the prongs.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: So prong one is to aggressively go after oil companies
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: who tend to use these moments to price gouge consumers.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Part two. prong two, if you will, is to have
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: an actual plan to help Americans deal with the burden
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: of higher gas prices right now. Later in this pod,
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: you'll hear an interview that I do with Elizabeth Warren,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: where she talks about a windfall profits tax, which will
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: both prevent oil companies from price gouging, but also pass
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: along savings to consumers based on what you get from
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: those windfall profits. That's part two. And part three is
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: we have to use this moment to make the case
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: for why we need to transition off of fossil fuels
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: and move to green energy. It's true. We live in
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: a global energy market, a global oil market. Even if
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: we are one of the largest exporters of fossil fuel
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: energy in this world, but we are still affected by
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: what happens all over the world, whether Saudi Arabia and
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: OPEC decide to produce more, what happens in Russia affects us.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: If we want true, quote unquote, energy independence, it has
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: to be a shift to green energy, to solar and
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: wind and geothermal and everything else. And so we have
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: to use this moment to make that case. And there's
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: a real danger to fall back into short-termism, right? Where
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: you sort of say, look at all the drilling we're
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: already doing. Look at all the domestic oil production we
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: have here. And not making the case that if we
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: truly want to hobble petro-state autocrats and tyrants like Vladimir Putin,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: if we want to truly be able to deal with
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: on par with Saudi Arabia, we have to be less
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: dependent on oil, period. And so we have to make
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: that case.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm glad that I haven't heard the Warren interview yet,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: but that she talked about the windfall profits tax and
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: then using the proceeds as sort of a rebate for people.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Did you see that Gavin Newsom, our governor, proposed this
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: week a gas rebate, mailing people a check?
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Because of high gas prices. So I think I think
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: there's a there's a short term, long term thing here,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: which you just got to separate.
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Like short term, we are going to do whatever we
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: can to get people through this crisis and to make
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: sure that, you know, we can alleviate the effects of
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: the Putin price hike. And I think a windfall profits
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: tax that turns into sort of a rebate check for
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: people is a good idea. And yeah, let Republicans block it. Fine.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: If they want to block it, they block it. But
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: we should go out there. I have been wondering if
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: this is an opportunity to sort of reframe the bill
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: formerly known as Build Back Better. Which, you know, we
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: haven't talked about it in a while, as per our
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: promise on this podcast, about all of Joe Manchin's machinations.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: But just so you all know, in the background, you know,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: there have been talk about, you know, basically Manchin wants
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: to get rid of the Trump tax cuts, raise taxes
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: on the rich or get rid of the tax cuts
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: that they had under Trump, and then use the proceeds
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: half to go to inflation and the other half to
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: go to energy, to clean energy, climate stuff, health care,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: prescription drugs. and childcare. At least that's what the Democrats want,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: and Manchin seemed open to that. I wonder if you
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: can say, like, you know, we're going to take away
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: tax cuts for the wealthiest few and the biggest corporations,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: including oil companies making windfall profits, and we're going to
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: use some of that money to do two things. Right now,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: we're going to send you a check to help pay
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: for Putin's price hike, but then we're going to transition
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: to clean, renewable American sources of energy so that we
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: can end our addiction to foreign oil, create new jobs,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: and save the planet. And then you draw the choice,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: if you're in the midterms, Republicans want a future where
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: our addiction to fossil fuels keeps us dependent on the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: whims of oil companies and dictators like Putin. Democrats want
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: a future where we control our own cleaner, cheaper, renewable
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: sources of energy. It does seem like it's a pretty
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: good opportunity for Democrats to reframe the bill like this,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: have Republicans be the one that oppose it, and then
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: go fight the midterms on this issue. Put them on
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the side of wanting to protect dictators and their oil
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: supplies and oil companies and all that bullshit. And we're
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: for American ingenuity and energy independence.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's accurate. I think the president should
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: actually go out and declare that Build Back Better is dead.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: And then two weeks later, come out with our new
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Putin price hike plan or more money in the pockets
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: of Americans plan. Let's just That branding has suffered. It's
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: carrying a lot of scar tissue from the brutal legislative battle.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: And it was, frankly, created in an environment where we
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: thought the pandemic was behind us and inflation was not
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: an issue. And now we're in a totally different world,
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: and we should just recreate it in that world. And
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I think your point here is that you always say
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: plan beats no plan. If we have a specific plan
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: paid for by taxing oil companies or the rich or
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: corporations which we know is the single most popular policy.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: And if you add it to any policy, it makes
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: it more popular if you pay for it with corporate
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: tax increases. And we take that and we take that
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: to the voters. And the Republican plan is we want
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: ExxonMobil to make more money. I think we're going to
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: win that battle. We've got to have something that we
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: are running on. And there's an opportunity to do that
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: right here.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: There have always been three main reasons that Democrats have
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: argued that we need to transition our entire economy to
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: one that's run on clean energy. renewable energy. And what
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: we have been talking about for the last several years is,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: you know, the most important reason because it's existential, which
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: is the saving the planet because of climate change. We
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: often talk about the fact that it would create a
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: lot of new well-paying jobs in this country, clean energy
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: jobs and all the jobs around it. And then the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: one that we used to talk about back when we
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: when George Bush invaded the wrong country in Iraq and
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: we were in that middle of that war is what
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: we're now talking about over the last several weeks, which
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: is You've got we now part of our calculation in
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: standing up to Vladimir Putin and his awful invasion is
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: having to think about the fact that he the world
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: depends on his oil and gas. And then if we
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: shut that off, we have to go to the fucking
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Saudis or the Venezuelans who also have authoritarian regimes who
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: aren't that fucking great. Like this. These are the choices
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: that we have to make because the whole world is
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: dependent still on fossil fuels in 2020. 2022 as the
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: planet's burning up. I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy. And
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: so I do think this is an opportunity for Democrats
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: to hit all three of those arguments at once and
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: be confident about it. And there, you know, like I
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: think that the short term, the short term is the
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: short term, right? Like I get that it's not fun
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: to talk about Joe Biden, like drilling more than Donald
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Trump or producing more fossil fuels, blah, blah, blah. But
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: at this point with people who are going to be
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: struggling to pay for higher gas prices, yes, we need
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: to get through this moment. And in this moment, sadly,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: we are still dependent on fossil fuels. But that doesn't
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: need to be our future. And there's no excuse for
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: it to be our future anymore.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Can I make one more point here, which I think
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: is a factual point? Because one of the things you
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: hear is you say, well, this is the Putin price hike.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: And then Republicans will point out, well, prices were up
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: last year before Putin began mobilizing forces on the border,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: which started this most recent run up in prices. And
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: so we're hoping to try to connect Joe Biden's decisions
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: on long-term domestic oil production with those higher gas prices.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: And there is no fact that supports that. That is
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: absolute bullshit. To the extent that there were higher gas
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: prices in 2021 before Putin in Ukraine, it was because
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: of supply chain disruptions when the economy in the world
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: came back faster from the pandemic than people expected. For
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: the same reason, there were delays in products and other
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: supply chain issues. That was the cause of gas price increases.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: It had nothing to do with the Keystone Pipeline, drilling
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: in Alaska, drilling on federal lands, or any of that
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: other bullshit the oil companies want you to think.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Oil production plummeted in the last eight months of Donald
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Trump's term in office. Is it Donald Trump's fault? No,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: it was not Donald Trump's fault. It was the pandemic's fault.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: That's what happened.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: The next big challenge for the Biden administration will be
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: to figure out what additional steps they can take to
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: help stop Russia's invasion of without triggering a madman who's
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: sitting on the world's largest supply of nuclear weapons. We
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: got more blob types calling for a no-fly zone or
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: some kind of a limited no-fly zone, which both would
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: still involve the US firing directly on the Russian military.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: The US just rejected a Polish plan to provide fighter
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: jets to Ukraine because we were concerned that Russia would
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: view that as direct conflict. And then there's Donald Trump's idea. Which, shockingly,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: we have not found a place to talk about this week.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: He floated this to a bunch of donors in New
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Orleans over the weekend. And his idea is, here's the idea,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: in case you haven't heard it. Get ready. This is
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: going to solve the whole fucking war. The United States
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: should label its F-22 planes with the Chinese flag and then, quote,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: bomb the shit out of Russia. Then we say, China
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: did it. We didn't do it. Then they start fighting
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: with each other. And we sit back and watch. Why
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: hasn't Joe Biden thought of that.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: One, huh? Come on, Joe.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: It's so good because you can just see the shit-eating
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: grin on Donald Trump's face when he said it because
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: he believes to his core that it is a brilliant idea.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: that if you simply were to put Chinese flags on
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: American planes, the Chinese would definitely not figure it out. Also,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: that an ideal solution to this problem is two other
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: nuclear war powers fighting each other seems like just a
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: great way to help all things.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's have one nuclear power. Let's bomb the shit
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: out of people who are sitting on a bunch of
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: nuclear weapons. But if we just paint over the flag
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: on the plane, that should do the trick. It should
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: do the trick. I mean, it brings up a serious point,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: which is, I have been thinking over the last several weeks.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: What possible serious point could it bring up?
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Get ready.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I'm excited.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking this over the last couple weeks, and
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: it's very genuinely, like, imagine if Donald Trump were president
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: right now. Like, I have been scared over the last
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: several weeks that we are potentially steps away or a
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: miscommunication or a miscalculation from fucking nuclear war. Vladimir Putin
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: does not seem very stable right now. and maybe he
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: is maybe he's not we don't know we have no
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: insight into this and so um we have one madman
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: sitting on a bunch of nuclear weapons and imagine if
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: in our country we had another madman sitting on a
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: bunch of nuclear weapons dealing with vladimir putin even though
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: they were pals in the past because as you know
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: donald trump's friendships don't last that long and he can
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: turn on people very quickly uh so like who that
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: would be fucking terrifying terrifying yeah.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: It is one madman here at home sitting on nuclear
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: weapons and another madman sitting on nuclear weapons and the
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: ultimate weapon of mutually assured destruction, the P-Tape. The P-Tape.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Get out of Ukraine or I'm going to release the P-Tape.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Oh my God. That probably would have been a tweet, honestly.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: It would have been my tweet.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: So we did, you know, I mentioned this earlier, which
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: is there is this do something bias when there is
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: a crisis like this. How do you think Biden navigates
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: the pressure from Hawks and others and well-meaning people to
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: just do more, do something in Ukraine now that he's
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: taken basically all of the steps you can on sanctions,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: on economic sanctions, and further steps would all sort of
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: include some kind of military action?
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is something that every president goes through
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: is that there is a bipartisan or nonpartisan momentum for
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: war in Washington. It is the one place where some Republicans,
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: some Democrats, think tank people, media people come together and
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: they push for something more than is happening, right? And
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: you eventually end up at military force. First it's sanctions,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: then it's oil ban, and then there are no more tools.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: You either have to sit back, watch the horrible things happening,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: or get involved militarily. And the people who make the
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: call are ones who do not have to bear the
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: accountability of that decision. And this is something that Ben
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: and Tommy have talked about so much, but it is
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: this pro-war bias infiltrates the media in very powerful ways.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: And it happens for two reasons. One, in many cases,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: you have war correspondents who are on the ground covering
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: these things and they see the horrors. And I think
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: this comes from a genuine place of empathy and compassion,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: which is how can we sit back and let this happen?
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: You think about the the bombing of the maternity hospital
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: in Ukraine the other day. What a horrendous, horrible thing
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: that happened, some of the images we've seen. And the
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: response to that is economic sanctions, yacht seizures. You understand
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: why that is incredibly unsatisfactory to people. But the other
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: reason is we still, sort of the pundit class fetishizes bipartisanship.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: And you have this, the blob is former Republican lawmakers,
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: former Democratic lawmakers, generals, the ultimate in nonpartisan figures in Washington,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: calling for this. And it becomes easy to abide by.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: This is what happened in Syria. And eventually, presidents have
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: to make decisions. And the consequences of decisions to get
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: involved in some place like Syria or in other conflicts
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: around the world are even different than the ones we're
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: dealing with here, because this is a potentially deranged, autocratic
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: madman detached from reality with nuclear weapons. there are real
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: consequences to getting involved and the people who are pushing
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: for it don't have to deal with those consequences or
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: make those decisions. They're not the ones being asked to
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: send American men and women into battle to do that.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: And having, trying to find the balance between horrendous human
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: rights catastrophes happening around the world and what is in
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: America's interest is like, is incredibly challenging. And it's very hard.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: It's never a pleasant or comfortable position for an administration.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: To be in.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: And, We're not there yet in Ukraine, but if this
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: continues at this pace, it's going to get there very,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: very quickly when the pressure is going to grow on
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: the president to do something.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: A line that our old boss said many times is
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: wars are easier to start than end. And I think
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: what you're getting at is the consequences of inaction are
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: very visible because Right now, we are seeing a horrific
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: loss of human life, innocent human life. And the consequences
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: of action, of escalation, are not visible right now. They
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: are off in the future. And we don't know what
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: they are. And so it is hard for, on one hand,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: people who are watching their screens can see what's happening
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: with us not engaging militarily right now. They can see
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: the horrific loss of life. They cannot see what might
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: happen if U.S. planes start firing on Russian planes and
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: then Vladimir Putin says, okay, you fight on our planes
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and now I'm pretty pissed and I'm going to launch
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: some fucking weapons of mass destruction, be they chemical, biological,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: or nuclear. And then what the fuck happens? Now we
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: have a madman who's sitting on, again, the world's largest
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: supply of nuclear weapons. So I'm not saying this is
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: an easy decision because on the other hand, If Vladimir
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Putin continues to escalate, when do we stop him? When
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: do we, you know, when do we make a move?
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: When do we decide, okay, it's actually worth the military
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: conflict right now because he's escalated to this point. Obviously,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: if he invades or attacks a NATO country, that would
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: be one moment. But, you know, there's reports today that
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: what if he uses chemical weapons in Ukraine? And if
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: he uses chemical weapons in Ukraine, he doesn't technically attack
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: a NATO country, but these are horrific weapons of mass destruction. Now,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: what do we do? I don't think it's an easy choice,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: but I do think everyone should be aware that what
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: we are seeing right now is horrific and sad, and
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: we need to do everything we can to stop it.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: But if that includes, you know, involving the U.S. military,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: and this becomes a global war with a nuclear power, then...
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty hard to step down from that.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: It's very hard for us to come to terms with
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: and for presidents to articulate the limits of American power.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: We have a pop culture and a mythology that says
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: that the American military is a solution to all problems anywhere.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: In the world.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: And sometimes that is the case. We have some of
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: the best trained military in the world, and whether it's
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: the bin Laden raid or hostage rescues or things that happen,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: that happens. But there's not much that has happened in
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: the last 70 years, it suggests that large scale American
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: military interventions end up well for anyone involved, including ourselves, right?
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Whether it's Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, they're the more likely scenario
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: is that, and it's not even talking about something, a
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: global conflict on the scale of what we're looking at
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: with Russia is, and that is a very, as you said,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: it's a very, very uncomfortable position for the American public
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: and the American president.
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: And I think, and I'm sure the hawks and the
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: blob would say, is it a Vietnam or Iraq or
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Afghanistan or is it World War II? And we had
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: to get involved. And I think that's a legitimate question.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: It's tough, but everyone should just be aware of the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: potential consequences.
• 35:23
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: When we come back, Elizabeth Warren.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: A lot going on in the news this week. We've
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: got the Russian oil ban, inflation, sanctions, an impending decision
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: on student debt, and possibly something that looks like Build
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Back Better 2.0. Joining us now to talk all about
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: it is Senator Elizabeth Warren. Welcome back to the pod.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan. It's good to be back.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: It's great to have you. I want to start with
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the Russian invasion of Ukraine. More than 2 million people
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: have fled Ukraine since the conflict began. I know the
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Congress has help grant temporary protective status to the Ukrainians
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: who are here, is working on humanitarian aid to the
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Eastern European countries who are housing these refugees. Should the
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: United States do more to bring some of these folks here?
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: And if so, what does that look like?
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, we're trying to do everything we can. And
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: I think that includes opening our doors for refugees. This
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: is part of what makes us who we are. And
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: we shouldn't just ask our allies to to absorb all
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: the impact of what it means to have a lot
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: of extra people in your cities, in your towns, needing
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: health care and access to all kinds of other services
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: and just space. We should be shouldering some of that
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: burden as well. The Ukrainian people have been so strong
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: and such a beacon for democracy for the whole world.
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: I think doing everything we can to try to help
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: here with money, with defensive weapons and opening our doors,
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: I think all of that is good.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: When you talk about defensive weapons, how do you draw
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: the balance between helping arm the Ukrainians and not doing
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: something that might spark a direct conflict with Russia between
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: us or NATO or Europe?
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: Well, I start with... two principles. The first one is
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Vladimir Putin doesn't get to decide. So he doesn't get
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: to say this constitutes a defensive weapon and that's an
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: offensive weapon in a declaration of war as he was
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: doing a few days ago. On the other hand, having
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: said that, that doesn't mean it's an easy line to draw.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: When the Russians are pounding the Ukrainians from the air,
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: helping the Ukrainians defend themselves, whether it's on the ground
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: or in the air, it seems to me, is defensive.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: But I get it when Poland says, oh, I want
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: to tangle NATO in this, that that is very worrisome.
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: We have to be wary of escalation.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: And I take it that you believe that a no-fly
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: zone would be equivalent to that sort of escalation?
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: Well, I think, yeah, I think putting foreign planes in
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: the air, that is planes that have pilots that come
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: from America or other NATO countries, we're not going to
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: impose a no-fly zone. That's too much direct conflict. But
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: helping the Ukrainians fight their battles in as many ways
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: we can, I think is something we need to find
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: that line, but we need to push it as hard
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: as we can.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: One other, I think, thing that a lot of people
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: who've been following this closely have learned as there's been
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: so much national attention on Russia and Ukraine is just
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: how involved in the US economy corrupt Russian oligarchs are,
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: but also how easy it is, I guess, for them
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: to hide their assets here. You have spent a lot
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: of time focusing on the kleptocracy. Has this caused you
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: to think about a legislative response or a policy response
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: to sort of address that situation, maybe something new or
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: something you've been working on in the past?
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. You know, it all fits together. Being able to
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: hide money is something that drug dealers do, that guys
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: who do ransomware and other kinds of cyber crimes do,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: that tax cheats do And turns out that Russian oligarchs do.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: So it's all kind of a bundle of the same
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: idea that some of the very rich and powerful folks
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: out there want to find out how they can hang
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: on to all their wealth and all their power and
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: hide it from any kind of scrutiny. So we have
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: a lot of things pending because it's something that occurs
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: in different areas. So for example, Being able to tell
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: who the beneficial owner of a condo is, for example,
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: is partly exposing tax cheats and drug lords and oligarchs.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Crypto is another area where this shows up. Here we
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: have this almost entirely unregulated system for moving value around,
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: a lot of value around, and yet really difficult right
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: now to enforce tracking on both who put the value
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: into an exchange or a wallet and who's taking it
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: out on the other end. On that one in particular,
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I now have a piece of legislation that I'm working
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: on with several folks to require the crypto platforms to
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: abide by the financial sanctions that we have put in
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: place in other areas. And that means, for example, cutting
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: off the oligarchs, not only from their yachts and from
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: their condos, but also cutting off the oligarchs from being
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: able to move value through this unregulated alternative system.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I'll come back to Russia for one second. I want
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: to ask you just a little bit about crypto. You
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: have been a critic of it. Obviously, there is this
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: very specific use case where whether it's Russian oligarchs or
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: others can avoid scrutiny because our sanction system is set
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: up on their traditional financial system where we have financial
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: institutions reporting and informing on such transactions. I've read some
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: stories and some art pieces where people argue that someone
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: like Elizabeth Warren should be very favorable to a version
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: of crypto because it does– there is a world in
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: which it moves– at least some financial transactions away from
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: a banking system that is inequitable, corrupt in a lot
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: of levels? Is there a version of crypto you think
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: that can be in line with progressive ideals for a
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: fairer system, one that maybe helps the unbanked or other
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: groups who have been sort of discriminated against or denied
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: in the current system?
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: So let's start in the right place. And that is
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: the banking system, the formal banking system has failed. millions
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: of people across our country. The people who don't have
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: access to banking services are paying a fortune to go
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: to check cashing services. When they borrow money, they end
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: up at payday lenders. It's a travesty. And people who
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: are in the formal banking system, many of them keep
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: getting ripped off by it. Notice we're making progress on
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: check overdraft fees, more banks, Citibank is the latest that
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: has said no to check overdraft fees. But there are
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: a ton of junk fees. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: is talking about these and other overdraft fees. I want
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: to see JPMorgan Chase. Come on, step up. Get rid
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: of these fees. So the formal banking system has not been,
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: not helped people of more moderate or low income actually
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: build wealth. It's really preyed upon them and sucked wealth
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: out of those families. So over on the digital side,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: the crypto world has said we could be an alternative
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: because we're cheap, because we don't have to go through
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: that old formal banking system. And I get the point,
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: but deliver, come on. What we have right now for
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: many folks is just a completely unregulated system. So we
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: talked about this at one of the hearings. Somebody puts
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: $ 100 into one of the crypto exchanges, sees the value
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: drop because it's very volatile, and wants to get their
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: money out and discovers that to get their money out,
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: they're going to have to pay $ 40. That was not
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: an improvement for someone of any financial circumstances. And with
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: no regulation right now, it means that many of the
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: cryptocurrencies are subject to pump and dump, all kinds of scams.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: So the problem we've got is that do we need
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: improvements in how currency operates?
• 45:05
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: One of the possibilities that we're looking at in the
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: United States and other countries are talking about is central
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: bank digital currency. Now, that's very different from Bitcoin. Very
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: different because central bank digital currency is actually backed up
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: by dollars, by value, by the promise of the United
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: States government that it will be there. And presumably, if
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: we did it, it would be highly regulated in the
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: sense that You don't put in $ 100 and have to
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: pay $ 40 to get your money back out. Just yesterday,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: President Biden signed an executive order that says we need
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: reports from our federal government. We need to study, including
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: he kind of goosed the Fed to get going on
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: central bank digital currency so that we decide as a country,
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: do we want to lead in this? Do we want
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: to make an investment in this space. And I think
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: it's a good start, but two points. One is there
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: need to be strong rules. We need real consumer protection.
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: And part two, the urgency of the moment. We need
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: to get it done now. And then we'll talk about
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: one more overlay to this because we've got all these
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: pieces going on, but there's one more. And that is
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: the environmental impact. of what's happening right now with digital currency.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: So unlike a central bank digital currency where the government
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: in effect just creates it and put some rules on
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: protecting consumers, we've got Bitcoin and other kinds of Bitcoin mining.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: And I assume you know basically how it works, but
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: the idea that this mining to effectively solve useless math problems,
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: consumes enormous, enormous amounts of power means that it has
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: a huge environmental impact. So something that, you know, we
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: managed to run an entire banking system with a modest
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: environmental impact that covers everybody and every corporation in the
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: whole world, and now we've got this alternative system that
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: is just sucking down huge amounts of energy that's not
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: going to a productive use in the sense that it
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: operates a factory or heats a home or drives a subway. Instead,
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: it just solves a problem so that somebody can claim
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: another Bitcoin. Crypto has real challenges. And so long as
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: it remains almost entirely unregulated, it poses a real threat,
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: a real threat on climate, a real threat on consumer protection,
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: and frankly, a real threat because it lets Russian oligarchs
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: find another way to move their money around. So a
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: threat to our being able to carry forward on economic sanctions.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: We've got a lot of work to do in this area.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: So on another issue, gas prices are at an all-time high.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: They're headed further upwards because of the recently enacted ban
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: on Russian oil imports. This presents a set of interrelated problems.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: One is that American consumers are already, even before this happened,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: suffering at the hands of inflation. New report out today
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: about how much inflation has gone up. So it's going
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: to be even tighter squeeze on families, problem one. Problem two,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: oil companies historically have used this as an opportunity to Further,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: become even more profitable for price gouging. And three, support
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: for the transition off of fossil fuels. tends to wax
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: and wane with energy costs. Energy costs go up. We
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: get into some short-termism, drill, baby, drill thinking. And so
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: what can we do to help consumers now? And how
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: are you thinking about how we can frame this moment
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: as an argument not to double down on domestic oil production,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: but to transition off of it?
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: I love this question. And you've got both hands. No,
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: these are absolutely A +. These are the top two
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: issues to be thinking about. So first, let's do price gouging.
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: I get it. Supply and demand, we're going to see
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: the price of oil rise internationally. And that's going to
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: be felt at the pump. But let's be clear. Oil
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: companies should not be permitted to use this as an
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: excuse to price gouge. you know, price goes up a
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: little bit internationally and then they raise a huge amount
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: on the price. Another thing I'm working on right now
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: is called a windfall profits tax. The idea is that
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: the biggest oil companies will have to pay a tax
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: if they're charging prices that in effect way outstrip their costs.
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: And it's a way both to keep them in the
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: spotlight and to say we're not just going to make
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: it public what you're doing, we're actually gonna fight back
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: against it. We're actually gonna penalize you for this. So
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: the idea behind that is a windfall profits tax and
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: then you take that money and give a rebate to
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: the consumers who are getting ripped off. So I think
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: that's the heart of the pricing is to keep a
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: laser-like focus on big oil companies, what they're paying for
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: their inputs and what they're charging at the pump and
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: show them that we actually have a federal response to that.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: You also though raised the question about how does this
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: fit overall into climate policy? My answer is, damn, if
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: a moment like this with Russia does not remind us
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: why we need to get off fossil fuels, then I
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: just don't know what it's going to take. If we
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: had been serious about moving off fossil fuels 25 years ago,
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: 20 years ago, how can I do this, 10 years ago,
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: then Russia wouldn't have the power it has today. I
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: keep thinking of it this way, that this is what
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: the whole Russian economy is built on. It's built on
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: fossil fuels and, by the way, crypto law-breaking. That's kind
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: of the two parts to this. So when I think
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: of energy independence, it means independence from fossil fuel autocrats.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: I want to fight that. Putin and his power and
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: his ability to run over a democratic neighbor and kill
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: hundreds of people, then double down on EVs, on solar, wind, hydro.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: We do those things and Putin's threat shrinks by the day.
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: So I hope that's what we will all remind ourselves.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: Every time we go to the pump to say, this
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: is why we needed EVs. This is why we need
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: more wind, solar, and power.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Speaking of climate legislation, Senator Manchin, right after President Biden's
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: day at the union, floated an idea that maybe he
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: was once again open to negotiations on a state Smaller
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: version that would include some climate spending as well as
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: some deficit reduction. Obviously not the package that everyone was
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: talking about a few months ago, but certainly better than nothing.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: What's your take on his proposal and do you have
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: any updates on any progress being made behind the scenes
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: you could share with this very small group of people
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: who I promise won't tell anyone?
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: Oh, as long as you all promise to keep this secret.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Everyone is pinky swearing all across the country right now.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. Okay. One giant pinky promise. Okay, we got this.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: So look, um, I get it. I, there's a lot
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: I wanted to do in the original build back better,
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: but the math is pretty straightforward. It takes 50 votes
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: to be able to make that happen. The good news
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: is there are a whole lot of things for which
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: we have 50 votes. So my view is let's just
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: stick all those things together and pass it. And, uh,
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: There are still details that people are working on on
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: the climate front, but a lot of good stuff. But
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: look at the things we all agree on. We all
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: agree on a corporate minimum tax. For example, all 50
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: Democrats are signed on to say that giant corporations like
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: Amazon that make more than a billion dollars in reported
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: profits and pay zero in taxes Those days are over
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: that all those billion dollar profit corporations going to pay
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: a minimum 15%. And I'm going to be really nerdy
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: for a minute here. We're going to base that on
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: their reported book profits, not an alternative minimum tax through
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: the tax system. Why the difference? Because the corporations, let's
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: face it, they have turned the tax system into Swiss cheese,
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: particularly for themselves. The idea here is, is that by
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: doing it on their book profits, they have an incentive
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: to report good book profits because that's what CEO pay
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: is based on. That's what share price is based on.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: So I think that one is terrific.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: It's locked in.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: Everybody's ready to go. It raises lots of revenue to
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: let us pay for things. Also, just a variation on this,
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: leveling the playing field around the world and bringing jobs
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: back to the U.S. That's a part of Build Back
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: Better that's important. We're looking at a 15% minimum tax
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: around the world, so these big international corporations can't just
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: go to the tax havens, take all the benefits of
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: being in the U.S., but not pay any taxes for it.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: So there's some stuff in the sketch, the original version
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: of Build Back Better, that is powerfully important, and that
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: truly is structural change. So give us what we've agreed on.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: Come on. Come on, Democrats. Take yes for an answer. Okay,
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: so we may not be able to solve the thousand-piece puzzle.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: I get it. There are some pieces we can't get
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: together on. could we just make a new puzzle that's
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: the 990-piece puzzle? And go ahead and put that one out.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: I'm still fighting to get this done. There are others
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: in our caucus, I think, who have not given up.
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: And we're just going to keep as gently or as
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: roughly as necessary, just keep pushing this toward closure. That's
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: what we have got to do.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Senator Warren, the final question for you. Last week, White
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: House Chief of Staff Ron Klain was on this podcast.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: He made a little bit of news about how the
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: White House was thinking about student debt. He said a decision,
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: he implied, I would say, a decision on student debt
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: cancellation would come before or around the expiration of the
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: current pause on interest payments. I know you've been pushing
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: really hard on this. What would you like to see
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: happen and what have you been trying to convince the
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: White House to do?
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: Okay, so let's start with what would I like to
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: see happen? I would like to see President Biden cancel $ 50, 000
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: in student loan debt today. It is a wonderful day
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: for the cancellation of student loan debt. It will make
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: the sunshine and the breezes be gentle and cool. I'm
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: totally in favor of this. He has the power. He
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: can pick up his pen and do it at any point.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: Look at it this way. The president, we just talked
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: about Build Back Better. The president has limited powers on
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: a lot of the things that He promised a lot
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: of the things that he would like to get done,
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: and I understand that. But here's one where he could
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: make a huge difference in the lives of tens of
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: millions of people. And let me just give you a
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: little pitch here. Think about who has student loan debt.
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: 40% of the folks with student loan debt do not
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: have a college diploma. You know, bless their hearts, they tried.
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: They got out there, and that's what we want them
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: to do. We're Americans. We want people to try.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: They tried.
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: They didn't have families that could afford to write a check,
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: so they took on debt. And then they had babies.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: They were working three jobs, and it didn't work out.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: Mom got sick. They moved. This would be life-changing for them.
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: These are people who are trying to manage college debt
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: on what a high school grad makes. Or look at
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: it another way. Two out of every three people with
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: student loan debt is a woman. Women borrow more money
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: to go to college. They borrow more money when they're
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: in college. They're having a harder time paying off when
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: they get out. Or look at it this way. People
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: of color, African-Americans, Latinos, borrow more money to go to school,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: borrow more money while they're in school, have a harder
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: time paying it off when they get out of school.
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: I'll give you one stat on this one. We now
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: have looked at the data 20 years out. People have
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: been paying for 20 years. White borrowers at 20-year mark
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: owe about 5% of what they originally borrowed. You know,
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: they're still paying after 20 years, but the end is
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: certainly in sight. Black borrowers on an average median owe
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: about 95% of what they originally borrowed. You know, canceling
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: student debt is the single most powerful thing the president
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: can do all on his own to help close the
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: black-white wealth gap. It is the single most powerful thing
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: the president can do all on his own to help
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: women who have gone back to school, gotten an education,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: trying to build a future. It is the single most
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: powerful thing the president can do all on his own
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: to show working people that Democrats are fighting for them.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Senator Elizabeth Warren, thank you so much for joining us
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: on Pod Save America. It's always great to talk to you.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: I love being with the pod. Thanks, Dan.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: All right, before we go, just closing the loop on
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: a story we covered a few weeks ago. You might
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: remember that during CPAC, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene spoke at
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: an event organized by white nationalists where the man who
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: introduced her said this.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 5: And now they're going on about Russia and Vladimir Putin
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 5: is Hitler and they say that's not a good thing.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have said that.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 5: You know, they say about America, they say, diversity is
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 5: our strength, you know. And I look at China and
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 5: I look at Russia. Can we give a round of
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 5: applause for Russia? Yes.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. At the time, Kevin McCarthy told reporters there was
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: no place in the party for that and that he'd
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: meet with Greene to talk to her about it. And
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: we said, here on Pod Save America, that what would
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: inevitably happen is that McCarthy would have the meeting, say
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: something mealy-mouthed afterwards, and hope that everyone's attention had already
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: moved on to the next thing. Sure enough, sure enough,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy told reporters on Wednesday that Greene, quote, will
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: not go again, and hinted that she will actually get
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: her committee assignments back if Republicans retake the House. How
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: about that, Dan? Are you shocked?
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: John, I am not shocked. I am not shocked that
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: Kevin McCarthy, not exactly a pillar of strength in any way,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: shape or form, gave Marjorie Taylor Greene a performative talking
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: to for attending a white nationalist conference where they cheered
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin at the exact time that Vladimir Putin was
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: invading Ukraine. No, I am not shocked by that.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, honestly, no points for predicting this from us.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: It was the easiest, most predictable fucking thing imaginable. Um,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: You know, the cheers for Putin, which sounded awful enough
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: at the time, sound even worse now that he's murdered
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: thousands of innocent Ukrainians. And Nick Fuentes, who was the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: loathsome individual who introduced Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's the clip
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: we just played, he wasn't alone in his Putin praise
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: as the invasion was about to begin. Here's some Putin
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: praise from Trump, Mike Pompeo, Tucker Carlson, and a few others.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 7: I went in yesterday and there was a television screen
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 7: and I said, this is genius.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: Putin declares.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 6: A big portion of the Ukraine, of Ukraine.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 7: Putin declares it as independent.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's wonderful.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 7: He's a very talented statesman.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: He has lots of gifts. He was a KGB agent,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: for goodness sakes.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 7: He knows how to use power.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: We should respect that.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: Very shrewd. Very capable. I have enormous respect for him.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 7: Why is it disloyal to side with Russia, but loyal
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 7: to side with Ukraine? They're both foreign countries that don't
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 7: care anything about the United States. I should say, for
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 7: the record, I'm totally opposed to these sanctions. And I
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 7: don't think that we should be at war with Russia.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 7: And I think we should probably take the side of
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 7: Russia if we have to choose between Russia and Ukraine.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: That is my view.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 7: And why shouldn't I root for Russia, which I am?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 7: No one on this show is rooting for Putin or
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 7: rooting for the Ukrainians, for that matter. Always rooting for peace,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 7: for real.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Unbelievable.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Mehdi Hassan, who was on Tuesday's show, tweeted this question
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: the other day. How come two weeks into this war,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: Democrats haven't yet successfully branded the GOP, whose leader called
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Putin savvy, genius, friend, et cetera, the party of Putin?
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: And I saw some similar sentiments on Twitter over the
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: last couple of days. What do you think?
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: Mehdi is as smart as they come. And I understand
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: the impulse to see Here you have some of the
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: most prominent members of the Republican Party defending a loathsome
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: individual who also happens to be the least popular figure
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: in the world right now, according to the American electorate.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: So why would you not connect those dots for an election?
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: And I think there is this tendency in political messaging
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: to start with the slogan and then try to reverse
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: engineer the story. And I think what we need to
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: figure out is what is the message we are going
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: to tell about Republicans why it is that they coddle
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: up to authoritarian dictators like Putin, why CPAC holds their
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: conference in Hungary, why Donald Trump endorsed Orban for reelection,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: a very strange thing for an American politician to do.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: Why are they trying to restrict democracy at home? The
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: Republican Party has become authoritarian, more Putin-like. It's not just
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: that they're friendly to Putin, it's that they view him
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: as a model of governance. What is the story about
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: why they want to do that and what impact it
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: has in America? I think we have, it's just, just
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: simply saying party of Putin or as Sean Patrick Maloney,
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: the head, had the triple C told Politico the other day,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: calling ourselves Zelensky Democrats is not a message, right? There
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: is a story to be told there and maybe it
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: can lend itself to something that, you know, you end
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: with a hashtag. Don't start with it, I guess would
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: be the way I put it.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've, We've been led to believe this is a,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: as you know, a long pet peeve of mine that, um,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: that we're just like a bumper sticker away from the
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: right messaging that Republicans have this simple messaging. And if
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: only Democrats just have a bumper sticker or a meme
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: or something like that, then we'll get the back. Look,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: you have to tell a story before you get to
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: the bumper sticker. You have to have the story down.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: And I do think party of Putin shortcuts the story. Um,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: We've been talking about this and then sure enough, our
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: friends at Navigator Research tested some of this stuff this
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: morning in this morning's poll. They tested a bunch of
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: statements and then they asked voters, how convincing is each
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: statement as a reason to support Joe Biden's response to
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Here was the most convincing reason
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: to support Joe Biden. Quote, if we let authoritarians and
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: dictators like Putin win when they invade a free democratic country,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Putin will only be encouraged to do more and will
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: push to the border of Poland and other NATO countries.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: 78% of voters found that convincing. 85% of what they
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: termed swing voters, the definition of swing voters in this
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: context is people in the poll who thought that Biden
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: has made the right decisions, but still don't support his
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: handling of the issue overall. And 85% of those voters
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: thought that was a very convincing reason. It was the
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: most convincing statement of all of them. Here was the
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: very least convincing statement on the entire list of about,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: I think, 10 statements. Republicans are so blinded by their
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: hateful partisanship that instead of supporting America and its allies,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: President Biden and Ukraine, they are pro-Putin, pro-Russia, and anti-democracy.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: Only 46% of voters found this convincing. Only 41% of
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: swing voters, and even only 68% of Democrats found that convincing. Now,
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: to your point, There's a larger story to tell about
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: Republicans and authoritarianism and the struggle between authoritarianism and democracy,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: both here and around the world. There was another statement
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: that came close to the first statement I read in
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: terms of popularity. This was like the second or third
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: most popular statement. Biden and America's allies are protecting global
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: democracy by standing up to Putin and Russia. With it,
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: they protect freedoms like voting, freedom of speech, and the
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: right to live a life free from dictatorship and violence.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: 67% convinced overall, 68% swing. So you see in that
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: statement that there is an argument to be made that
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: sets up the contrast between Joe Biden and our allies
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: around the world defending democracy abroad and here at home,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: including our democratic values abroad. and here at home, and
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: the alternative, which is Putin, authoritarians, and people who act
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: like them, by the way, Donald Trump. And I do
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: think there's a way to say like, you know, Putin
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: is the future of Trumpism. Remember how Trump incited violence
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: at his rallies? Remember clearing away the protesters for his
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: fucking Bible photo op? Remember January 6th? You can lead
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: people to this conclusion without taking the shortcut by just
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: saying they're the party of Putin, which people just don't
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: buy yet.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: I want to just focus on slogans for a second
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: here because there is this sense among a lot of
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: people that Make America Great Again was this genius slogan
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: that sort of gave Trump the presidency. And there's no
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: question that Make America Great Again is one of the
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: most successful slogans in American history, without a doubt. But
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: Make America Great Again is actually a slogan version of
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: the story Republicans have been trying and failing to tell
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: for decades, which is that America's best days are behind
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: it because of the demographic and cultural change that's happening
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: in America. And if you want the America that you
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: thought you were going to grow up in or that
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: you thought you would age in, the America of the 50s,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: then we have to go back again. It was a
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: restorative message. And Trump did it in a very good way.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: We didn't start with make America great again. He just
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: found a better way to frame the Republican message than
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: any Republican had in a very long time. And so
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: like the story you told, there is a slogan version
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: of that. Maybe it's something about Putin's party. I suspect not.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: But let's get the story. Let's test the story. Let's
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: make sure it's believable.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: Start with the story.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: Only political attacks have to be believable. And even for
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: all of Trump's coddling up to Putin, there is a
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: long history of Republicans having this advantage on being tough
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: on communism that is nearly a century old now. That
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: is not an accurate description of what Russia is now.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: that you have to overcome. And so you've got to
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: tell the story to get to the conclusion.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: And I am completely in the camp that at some point,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: we need to do our very best trying to persuade
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: the American people that democracy is a better form of
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: government than authoritarianism, because that's where we are right now.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: And that's the threat that we face from Donald Trump
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: and a lot of elements of the Republican Party. But
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: we have to understand that for most people in this country,
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: democracy and authoritarianism and the struggle between the two are
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: very theoretical. And we have to make it real for people.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: We have to make it tangible for people. And I
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: don't think the answer is just like, oh, then we
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: have to talk about kitchen table issues, right? We default
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: to that because we know those are real to people
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: and those are tangible. We got that. But we also
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: have to make the value of living in a democracy
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: and why it's so important and why authoritarianism is such
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: a threat to everything we hold dear. We need to
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: make that real for people. And that takes a lot
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: more work than just coming up with a slogan. All right.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: That's it for today. Thank you so much to Elizabeth
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Warren for joining the pod as always. And I hope
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: you all have a great weekend and we will talk
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: to you next week.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: Bye everyone.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Our producer is Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez is our
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Sandy Gerard,
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: Hallie Kiefer, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: Amelia Montooth. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: slash crookedmedia.