Latest / Thick No More / The Quiet Gift | Pamela Cass on Dyslexia, Feeling Invisible & Finding Your Purpose

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The Quiet Gift | Pamela Cass on Dyslexia, Feeling Invisible & Finding Your Purpose · Thick No More

• 0:02
  They said we were thin. They said we couldn't learn,
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  couldn't thrive, couldn't shine. But here we are, living proof.
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  The resilience rewrites the story.
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  There are no limits. There are no limits.
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  This is the time of where voices rise.
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  Stories connect. Hey everyone, welcome back to
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  Thick No More. This is the podcast where we
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  turn lessons and struggles into strengths.
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  I am, of course, your host, Jay, and today I'm joined by someone
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  whose story not only resonates really deeply with me, but I
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  pretty much anyone whoever felt unseen.
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  My guest today is Pamela Cass. She's a performance coach, a
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  speaker and author of an incredible book, which we're
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  going to tap into. It's called The Quiet Gift.
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  Pamela's similar to me. She grew up in the 70s,
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  diagnosed with dyslexia at a time when support was pretty
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  much non existent. Not that there's a lot of
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  support these days either. But anyway, that's that's
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  subject we'll talk about later. For years she tried to hide it.
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  I met Pamela a few weeks ago. We had a great conversation,
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  really hit it off. She spent time feeling invisible
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  in classrooms, classrooms that didn't understand her.
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  But through courage, honesty, and I guess some self
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  acceptance, Pamela's turned that invisibility into invincibility.
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  Pamela, welcome to Thick No more.
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  I am honored to have you on and I know it's very, very early in
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  the morning for you, so I appreciate you.
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  Thank you. Yeah, absolutely.
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  It's an it's an honor to be here and I absolutely love what
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  you're doing in the community you're building.
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  So I couldn't think of a better place or a better way to start
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  my day. Amazing.
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  OK, so same question. Everyone gets this question all
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  right. And two dyslexic minds here, so
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  I'm hoping you've got a good one for me.
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  So you picture the scene will do.
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  Double doors, not single doors, double doors, big auditorium
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  doors fling open and your theme tune starts playing.
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  That theme tune sticks with you every time you open a door.
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  Watch your tune and why. You know, it's funny.
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  I would say if you would ask me that question maybe two years
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  ago, I would have said this is my fight song.
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  I don't even know who sings it, but it very much felt like, you
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  know, I was fighting to get my life back.
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  If you asked me that today, which you just did, I would say
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  my my song is Unstoppable by Sia.
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  And I just think, yeah. And I think it's just one of
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  those things where you know this when you have dyslexia, you
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  think of it as a disability, and when you come to grips with it
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  and you see it as a gift, then you become unstoppable.
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  And so that song just absolutely resonates with me today.
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  That's a great, great change. She's such an amazing voice.
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  I'll tell you. I'll tell you something that you
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  you, you probably won't be aware of.
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  So in the late, so the late 80s, early 90s, that's when Sia first
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  came onto the scene. And when she first came onto the
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  scene, she was a recorded artist that just did dance music.
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  And there's a very famous song that she wrote which is a huge
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  hit in the clubs. Before she was, she was just an
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  unknown. I'll put it in, I'll put it in
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  the chat and later on so everyone can listen to it.
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  But again, same sort of vibe, same sort of you could see where
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  she was going all the way back then with her, with her lyrics,
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  you know, the way that she like kind of makes you like look into
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  your soul and think, well, yeah, I can actually do this, you
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  know, so. Absolutely.
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  But Jay, let me ask you the question.
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  What's your song? So I'm a I'm a for my sins.
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  Can't read it really, but I have the lyrics to a Depeche Mode
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  song on my own and it's my favorite Depeche Mode song is
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  Walking in my shoes. Again, very, very relevant.
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  There's a lyric in that line in the lyric that says, you know,
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  if you try and understand the day I've had, you try and do
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  what I do every day. You try walking in my shoes and
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  for me the same as you. And that's what I'm going to
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  talk about in a second is, is we've done it for years, years
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  and years and years. We've had this, this battle.
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  And that's the that's the way to describe a battle.
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  And there are kids and children and young adults and even adults
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  that are hiding still going through what we've been through.
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  And it's a shame to see. But yeah, it's a great it's
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  great song. You should have a listen to it.
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  You'll you'll like the lyrics. 77 You were diagnosed, was you,
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  is that right? 77, I was diagnosed.
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  Yeah. Seven years old, Yeah.
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  Now you guys and you know how old I am.
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  Yeah, we listen. We're summer age, so it's.
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  Fine, yeah. We're both, we're both, we're
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  both masters of our own age. Here.
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  It's a quite no one else listens.
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  It's fine. You'll be fine.
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  Yes, yes, yes. Oh, so, so obviously, you know,
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  I didn't get diagnosed till I was.
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  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Where you gone?
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  Yeah, I'm really curious to know.
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  In the 70s, what was what was it like then?
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  What was the diagnosis like? How did it change?
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  Can you tell me a bit about it? Yeah, so we were living in a
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  very rural town outside of Boston, MA.
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  And I remember a lot of time at the kitchen table with my dad in
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  the evenings trying to get work done that the other kids got
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  done in class, and a lot of phone calls from the teacher.
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  You know, she's not getting her work done.
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  And at the time, I think my parents thought I just wasn't
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  applying myself or I was being lazy or whatever that is.
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  And then finally a teacher approached my parents and said,
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  you know, you might want to have her tested.
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  Maybe there's something going on.
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  And so that meant I got an entire day out of school.
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  So I was super excited. And we got to go into the city.
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  I was like, well, this is OK. So I'm with my mom and we get to
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  go into the city. And I remember pulling up, of
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  course, in the big old family station wagon to this very tall
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  building. And it seems very overwhelming
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  for a 7 year old. And I just remember looking up
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  at the building and not knowing what this was going to be.
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  And so going in and I, I mean, I remember bits and pieces of the
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  testing, but I was there for most of the day.
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  I think, you know, we, we expand things when we're, when we're a
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  child. And then I remember my parents
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  getting the call and with that diagnosis of dyslexia.
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  And I didn't know what it meant, just that my brain worked
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  differently than other kids. And so when we went back into
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  the when I went back into the classroom, because we were in a
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  rural area where we didn't have malls or fast food restaurants,
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  we were surrounded by apple orchards.
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  And so it was a very small community.
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  Going back in the classroom meant that I didn't get special
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  help, which today they keep kids in the classroom usually.
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  Well, I didn't. I was pulled out of the
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  classroom and I would hang out with the teacher aide and I
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  remember making chocolate chip cookies and doing artwork.
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  At first it seemed fun, like, oh, this is awesome.
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  Like I get to do the fun stuff. But what happened is, is then
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  when you come back into the classroom, the kids wonder,
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  well, why didn't she have to do what we had to do?
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  Why is she different? And so the whispers started to
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  happen. And so that's when I tried to be
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  invisible. I was like, I don't want people
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  to notice me. And so I very much shrunk and
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  hid because I didn't want to be seen as that different kid, but
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  everybody else was forging friendships and bonds that you
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  form when you're young. And I wasn't because I was that
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  kid that wasn't there with everybody else.
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  I wasn't experiencing the same things.
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  And so it was very, very lonely. Oh, so sad, man.
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  When you said to me when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, I
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  mean, we, I joke about it, right?
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  It's, it's not to be joked about, but I, I can joke to
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  myself, I have the worst handwriting in the world and I
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  can't read my own writing. But one of the things I managed
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  to capture from what we said before was that word.
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  And it is a word I've got written down for me now that
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  invisible. That's, that's really sad.
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  That's for a child of that age to feel like that.
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  And I kind of picked up on something that you said that
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  you'd go back into the classroom that probably then also made you
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  feel ousted a little bit in the sense that they were all staring
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  at you thinking, well, you know, again, more pressure when you're
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  already not really sure because you're not you no idea what's
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  going on up here. It's just a model.
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  But then to have that added pressure as well, that's, that's
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  really tough for a, for a child at that age.
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  And it was. I was living this kind of double
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  world where at school I wanted to be invisible.
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  I didn't want people to notice me, but then at home I wanted to
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  be visible. And so I started hiding in a
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  closet. There was a closet in our
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  hallway and I would hide and I would close the door and it was
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  dark and peaceful. And I always had my cat with me.
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  My faithful cat who ended up becoming my best friend for the
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  20 years he was alive because he was that faithful person that
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  never or thing creature that never judged, never was always
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  there for me when he was sad and happy and all that.
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  And I would hide in the closet, not to hide from people, but I
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  was hoping that my parents would notice that I was missing.
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  And so I would sit in there what felt like ours.
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  I'm sure it wasn't. I'm sure it was just moments and
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  nobody would ever come, which just, you know, through, you
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  know, our confirmation bias, it just confirmed that OCI really
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  am invisible. And it was just this years of
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  wanting to be seen in some places and then just wanting to
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  be invisible in other places. And so just very much shrinking.
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  It's tough, you know, and what what upsets me the most and
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  it's, it's difficult to hear that because it touches on some
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  of my emotions that I had from, from from my childhood.
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  And you know, I know that I know that kids you you mentioned
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  earlier and of course, I'm in the industry where we help
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  children and there is help now it's just technology as
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  technology to make their life easier in the classroom.
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  I always often wonder the child that sat there maybe with their
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  headphones on or the child that sat there with a device so the
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  text is being read out to them. Do they still go through that
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  same emotion that you and I went through that they're feeling
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  singled out because they're doing something different, not
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  the same as everybody else? And do they still take that
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  baggage home that you and I took home as well?
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  I wonder that and it it's about it's 2025 and it still fails
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  sometimes that we are still in the 70's.
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  The emotional side of it and the mental side of it.
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  I still don't think he's fixed. I still think it's a long way
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  off being fixed, you know? It is.
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  Sad. It is sad.
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  It is very sad and and I think a lot of it has to do with how we
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  see some of these neurodivergent there.
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  It's ADHD or autism or dyslexia. The society sees it as a
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  disability where I don't see it as that.
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  I just see it as a different way of doing things and there are
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  beautiful gifts inside of how we do things differently.
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  I mean, we are super resilient, we are super empathetic, we are
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  super creative. And so if, if we can tap into
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  that and, and kind of rewrite that narrative of it's a
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  disability, this poor kid. No, we just do things a little
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  bit differently, which makes us uniquely special.
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  And as a matter of fact, we every one of us does things
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  differently. Every one of us.
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  Yeah, totally, totally. You, you, you.
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  You just touched on something that I picked up on last time as
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  well. You used that word last time
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  gift. What was the point where you
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  realized that, OK, this is something maybe I could start
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  using and how did you is this maybe could you share how you
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  started using that dyslexic thinking?
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  Yeah, Be really cool for people listening, particularly parents
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  that listen and are struggling with the kids just being given
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  this label. Maybe you could perhaps share a
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  light on on on that because I think that'd be cool for people
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  to hear. Yeah.
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  Well, it's really interesting because I got to a point in high
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  school where, you know, still they would you could do a
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  different class for reading. And I was like, no, I'm not
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  doing that. I am going to be in the same
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  class with everybody else. So it was what everybody else
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  had to do. As far as working and prepping
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  for school, I had to do it twice as long, twice as much.
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  I had to spend so much more time doing everything.
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  When I went to college, the university, I actually could
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  have somebody go to class with me, take notes.
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  I could do testing at a different location, different
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  time and have unlimited time to do the test.
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  And I was like, no, I'm going to be just like everybody else.
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  And so I just pushed through it and it was hard.
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  I mean, it was really hard. And so then Fast forward to my
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  professional life and it was in 2017, quite many, many years,
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  many, many years later, where I was speaking at an office, I was
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  in a leadership position and I was speaking in front of an
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  office. It was 100 people.
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  And I was going to do a talk on the power of our brain and how
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  we can overcome beliefs. And I was going to, for the very
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  first time in my life, share with a group of peers that I had
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  dyslexia. And it was the morning I was, I
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  had my PowerPoint done in the morning of it, the presentation,
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  I was like, gosh, I think, I don't think I have dyslexia
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  anymore. I think I cured myself.
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  Like I, I don't have this, this is like a thing that I've, I've
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  completely cured. Well, this was before ChatGPT or
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  any AI. So I'm like, well, what do you
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  do when you want to answer a question?
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  You go to Google and say, can you cure dyslexia?
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  And the answer was no, you can't.
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  And so I was like, well, shoot, I still have it.
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  And so when I shared it with this group of people that had no
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  idea because I was very high functioning, I mean, I was in a
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  leadership position, running two offices, speaking in front of
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  people and I shared it, the amount of people that came up to
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  me after that. And that said, have you, we've
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  always seen you as a stoic person that never goes through
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  any challenges or has any issues.
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  You share that with us. And it made me feel like I was
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  seen. And so that told me that there's
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  a lot of people that don't share their authentic self because
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  they don't feel like it's safe. They feel like they're going to
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  be judged, they're going to be labeled whatever, whatever that
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  is. And so I started doing research
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  about dyslexia because I'm like, well, gosh, if I have it, then I
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  want to lean into it and figure out like, what is it that I do
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  really well? And I started looking at my life
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  and I was like the things that I love doing was the creating of,
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  of content, the starting things. But what I hated doing was the
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  back end tracking and, and doing having the systems that I have
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  to follow. I didn't like to do that.
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  And so I very much lean into the things that I did really well
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  and then let other people take over the things that I didn't do
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  well. And as soon as I did that, I was
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  able to to rise up in that company and become the vice
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  president. And but, you know, years of, you
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  know, we're overworking because we tend to do that with dyslexia
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  because we're overcompensating. We feel we have to prove
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  ourselves. I ended up, I went through
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  cancer, a cancer diagnosis. And then after that, about a two
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  years after that, I went through burnout where I was working
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  seven days a week because I felt like, Oh my gosh, I'm the vice
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  president. I passed all these other people
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  that had been in leadership positions for years, they're
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  going to figure out I'm an imposter.
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  I don't know what I'm doing. And so I felt like I had to work
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  60-70 hours a week and I made the decision to walk away not
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  knowing how I was going to support my, I was a single mom.
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  How is it going to support my kids, my family to lean into?
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  No, I'm going to help. I'm going to help other people.
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  Doesn't matter what they're going through, achieve their
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  goals. And so I started coaching
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  people. And so I coach people all over
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  the world and I speak to people and, and then wrote this book to
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  really share my whole story with people.
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  And the amount of reach out that I've gotten for that has been
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  really powerful. And people saying, you know,
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  they didn't have dyslexia, but gosh, I had this thing that I
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  struggled with and I wanted to be invisible.
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  And so it's just been a beautiful journey.
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  That's amazing. I mean, you're an incredible,
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  incredible person. Like I hear it off of you the
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  moment we first spoke. And I think, I think to lock all
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  that away for all those years, I'd I don't know what you must
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  have gone through. It's just it's an incredible
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  story. It's heartbreaking and, and and
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  and incredible all in one. Like it is hard to hard to
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  imagine how you coped with that much pressure because you
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  touched on people hiding. You know, it's one of the worst
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  things. I've mentioned this now on 4
• 18:22
  podcasts. This will be the 4th podcast
• 18:24
  I've missed by mentioned this on.
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  There is a jet on the new remains anonymous.
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  I don't know his name. He messages me after every
• 18:30
  podcast and said thank you very much.
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  That was brilliant. He's been in the same job for
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  seven or eight years, I can't remember.
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  He's dyslexic. He's ADHD and flat refuses to
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  tell his boss that he's struggling every day because
• 18:44
  he's too scared of losing his job.
• 18:45
  And you just don't realize how much your pressure you're
• 18:53
  putting on yourself as an individual, like mentally,
• 18:57
  physically, emotionally, family, parents, children, it all passes
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  by. And as you've just said,
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  eventually it catches up with you.
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  You get the burnout and I mean to walk away from that where you
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  were. I want to talk about the book,
• 19:15
  but I just want you to share something with everybody.
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  So a couple of weeks ago when I met Pamela, I was telling her I
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  was really nervous because I was doing a webinar and I, I, so I
• 19:28
  don't listen. I'm using my dyslexia as an
• 19:30
  excuse here. It's probably not, it's just
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  fear of public speaking. But my, my, it's like an
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  imposter syndrome or a Red Cross on a page for me.
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  I fear of people seeing through me and me saying something wrong
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  when I'm doing a talk. So I was telling Pamela this
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  moment and I said, oh, I can help you with that.
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  Just tell everybody what you told me to do before that
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  webinar. Yeah, so I think most of us live
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  inside what I call our head bubble.
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  We're running our lives from our our mind.
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  You know, you can call it our monkey mind and think about what
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  happens when we're running from there.
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  We think about what's all the chatter.
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  I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough.
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  I don't deserve to be here. What if I mess up?
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  What if they see me and it's all this talk that goes on up in our
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  head? And so if we can take it from
• 20:18
  there and go into what I call our energetic center, if you
• 20:22
  follow yoga, it's that your dantian, call it your womb
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  space, your what, whatever, call it your core.
• 20:30
  And to me, so that means doing that deep belly breath.
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  So when I find myself in my head, I do 3 deep belly breaths
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  where I count in for four, hold it for a second, breathe out for
• 20:41
  six, and drop into my my core, which is 3 inches below your
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  belly button and kind of in the center.
• 20:48
  It's the center of your body. And so I envision like a light
• 20:52
  there. And through that light I see
• 20:55
  basically shooting down through my legs these beams that go into
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  the earth and create these roots that completely ground you in
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  this safe, beautiful space. And so I do this activity with
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  people. I did it this week with a group
• 21:08
  of 20 women where I have them talk to somebody from their head
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  bubble and then I have them drop into their core and speak from
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  there. And what happens is we slow
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  down, we feel safe. We become completely present in
• 21:23
  our life in our moment, and all the fear goes away and we talk
• 21:28
  authentically. And when we talk from there, you
• 21:30
  attract people to you. They want to hear more, they
• 21:34
  want to hear what you say and you feel completely safe there.
• 21:39
  And so I tell people, anytime you've got to speak in a
• 21:42
  relationship, in an office meeting, critical conversation
• 21:46
  in front of a group of people, if you can drop down inside of
• 21:50
  there and just say people need to hear what I have to say.
• 21:54
  And I'm going to speak from my core, it's it's just a very
• 21:58
  safe, different place. And so when we got on this
• 22:00
  morning and I was like, well, I'm not going to get ready for
• 22:03
  this. It's not my camera's not going
• 22:04
  to be on. It's going to be fine.
• 22:06
  You get on and then you listen to what I said and now you're
• 22:10
  you're doing this. And I'm like, yes, we're going
• 22:12
  to do this because I'm going to support you because I absolutely
• 22:15
  love that that you got. You've done this.
• 22:19
  You've done this video. Not me.
• 22:20
  This is on you. Yeah, just.
• 22:22
  But you know, you know the crazy thing about this?
• 22:24
  OK, this was this was the the bit that I realized because I
• 22:28
  kept thinking, should it feel different?
• 22:30
  Should I feel different? And I kind of didn't.
• 22:32
  I was still nervous. I had that butterfly.
• 22:34
  But I remember talking and now every other tour or every other
• 22:39
  speech or every other public announcement, whatever it might
• 22:42
  be that I've ever done, I cannot tell you one single word that
• 22:46
  I've said on that talk. But that webinar, I remembered
• 22:50
  everything. I got off and I was like, I
• 22:54
  think I did OK there. I felt, I felt like, like you
• 22:58
  just said, I felt like people wanted to hear what and I went.
• 23:01
  It just felt like it flowed. I didn't feel any anxiety.
• 23:04
  I didn't panic. If I lost a word, I, it was.
• 23:08
  So if anyone's listen, if you have, if you have that, that,
• 23:11
  that, that emotion, that fear, it's brilliant.
• 23:14
  The book, which is also brilliant.
• 23:17
  So quiet gift, really powerful title.
• 23:20
  I kind of think I know why you called it that because we talked
• 23:23
  about The Quiet Gift. I kind of would love you to kind
• 23:29
  of give us an insight into the book.
• 23:36
  Maybe we could talk a little about, we've talked about people
• 23:39
  that are hiding their dyslexia, but talk a bit about the book.
• 23:42
  Tell us why you've done it, what it means to you personally.
• 23:46
  I think it'd be great for people to hear that because it is
• 23:48
  wonderful. Yeah.
• 23:50
  And so it's interesting, I'll tell you, it's kind of the whole
• 23:52
  journey. So I always felt like I had a
• 23:55
  book inside me that I wanted to share, never really knew what
• 24:00
  part of my life I wanted to share.
• 24:02
  I didn't remember a lot of my childhood.
• 24:04
  And I think, you know, with trauma, we brain protects us and
• 24:09
  we bury things. And it wasn't until I think
• 24:13
  2000, about 2019, I did what's called EMDR. And EMDR is a
• 24:20
  therapy that you can do to go through PTSD.
• 24:24
  And this came directly from going through my abusive
• 24:28
  marriage for for 23 years. And then I was in these same
• 24:32
  relationships and I was like, OK, the common theme here is me.
• 24:36
  And so I was going to counseling and she recommended EMDREMDR is
• 24:40
  used for PTSD. And basically you put these
• 24:44
  paddles in your hand and they just vibrate and they go from
• 24:47
  one hand to the other vibrating and it's activating your brain
• 24:51
  and your memory. And so you they will, she will
• 24:54
  say a prompt word and then she has you close your eyes and you
• 24:57
  do this. And then your brain starts to
• 24:59
  fire on all cylinders. And at first it was just dark
• 25:03
  and then I'd get flashes of memories of things.
• 25:07
  And it was during that. And I only did three sessions
• 25:10
  because one session of EMDR is like 10 hours of counseling.
• 25:14
  And so I did this and I read that's when I remembered about
• 25:19
  hiding in the closet. And then all of my childhood
• 25:22
  came back, the good memories and the bad memories and all the way
• 25:26
  up to the present day. And what it does is it, it
• 25:29
  allows you to address those memories so that you don't have
• 25:31
  these patterns showing up in your world.
• 25:33
  And I was having these patterns. And so once I started doing, I
• 25:38
  started journaling. I started journaling about these
• 25:40
  memories that started coming up. So Fast forward, I was, gosh, it
• 25:46
  was 2 1/2 years ago, I approached my business partner
• 25:49
  Natalie and I told her I was like, I want to do a podcast and
• 25:54
  I want it to be on resilience. And I want to create a community
• 25:59
  for people that don't have other people when they're going
• 26:02
  through just tough times and for inspiration.
• 26:05
  And it started with just the two of us talking to each other and
• 26:07
  our, I think our second episode was me sharing about dyslexia.
• 26:11
  And again, that's a scary thing to now be public with it.
• 26:15
  Like, I don't know who's listening to our podcast.
• 26:17
  And then I found a, a woman in our, our community, Joy Short,
• 26:21
  who started the Noco Dyslexia Foundation.
• 26:26
  And so they do testing. And the reason she started the
• 26:28
  foundation is because her son has dyslexia and she learned
• 26:32
  that her husband had it as well and he was never diagnosed.
• 26:35
  And so the first, like second, third, fourth episode of our
• 26:39
  podcast is on dyslexia. And then it was probably a year
• 26:43
  later, I was like, Natalie, I think I want to do a book.
• 26:46
  Let's do a book on resilience. And we started this book and it
• 26:50
  was like 64 pages. And it was going to be this self
• 26:53
  help book on resilience. And each chapter was going to be
• 26:56
  on a different topic. And we were going to highlight
• 26:59
  some of our guests because now we, we've had guests from all
• 27:02
  over the world on our podcast and we got to 64 pages.
• 27:05
  And I, I hit this wall and I said, this is not my story.
• 27:08
  This is not my book. This is not what I want to
• 27:10
  write. And so it was December of last
• 27:14
  year that Natalie was going to go on vacation for three weeks,
• 27:17
  and I called her. One of my coaching clients has
• 27:19
  sent me a book called The Energy Bus.
• 27:22
  And it was a small book and it was a book in a series of books,
• 27:26
  and it was written like a story. And I called her and I said, can
• 27:29
  we scrap this book that we've written so far and, and just do
• 27:33
  do this different. I want to write a I want to
• 27:35
  write it like a story and I want to do a series of books that's
• 27:39
  digestible. I have dyslexia.
• 27:41
  You give me a big book, I'm not going to read it.
• 27:43
  I'm not going to read it. So I want something that's
• 27:45
  that's short and digestible and that will resonate with people.
• 27:49
  And so she said, well, I don't know how to do that.
• 27:52
  And I'm going on vacation. I was like, come pick up this
• 27:55
  book, read it on your vacation, and let me take a stab at it.
• 27:58
  And so during that holiday, I started writing.
• 28:01
  I took all of my journals that I had been writing, and I just
• 28:05
  started writing. And I wanted to make it a little
• 28:08
  fictiony. So it is my story, but I have a
• 28:11
  character in there, Sam, who shows up.
• 28:14
  He's not a real person. So for anyone that reads it, it
• 28:18
  could be God, it could be your your voice, it could be whoever
• 28:22
  you. Whatever you want it to be.
• 28:23
  Whatever you want it to be. And he gives the character a a
• 28:28
  journal, because that's what I did.
• 28:30
  I journaled to to find my story. Gives the character a journal.
• 28:34
  It's a worn journal and every time she's going through a
• 28:36
  struggle, when she opens the journal, it'll just show up,
• 28:39
  it'll go missing and then it'll just show up when she needs it.
• 28:43
  When she opens it, there's a journal prompt, there's a
• 28:45
  question that allows her to, to respond to.
• 28:48
  And so that was the little bit of A twist that I did.
• 28:51
  And so I, I wrote it and it, I didn't realize how healing it
• 28:58
  was going to be. I'd like to say because you
• 29:00
  know, when you write the story, you relive it and then you're
• 29:05
  like, gosh, dyslexia. And everything I went through
• 29:08
  was, was a gift because it got me where I am today.
• 29:11
  And now I want to shout it from the rooftops because I want, I
• 29:14
  don't want people to have to live that, that invisible life
• 29:19
  like I did, even though it ended up being a beautiful thing.
• 29:23
  And here's a cool story since you and I met, I had a high
• 29:27
  school friend reach out to me because she saw the book launch.
• 29:30
  I've not talked to her since high school, so 89.
• 29:33
  We played soccer together and she does voice overs.
• 29:37
  And so she is now making it an Audible book for me.
• 29:39
  So it'll be on Audible because I'm like, it has to be on
• 29:42
  Audible because people with dyslexia, we don't like to read.
• 29:46
  And so I want to share the message to more people.
• 29:49
  And so that's. Listen, please let me know when
• 29:52
  it's on because it's. Yeah.
• 29:54
  Did you, did you find it? You said, you know, you found it
• 29:58
  like kind of when you look back at it or was the part where you
• 30:02
  struggled emotionally with it or was it just it?
• 30:05
  Did it just come easy? I would say it became it was
• 30:10
  easy. When it got scary was when I had
• 30:13
  to share it with the editor. Because now I'm like, oh, now
• 30:18
  I'm sharing it with a stranger. What if they hate it?
• 30:20
  What if they're like, this is terrible?
• 30:23
  Then when it launched on Amazon and we had to come up with a
• 30:26
  launch team and I was sharing it with coaching clients and people
• 30:30
  I work with who don't know my story.
• 30:33
  That was terrifying. And then when I started getting
• 30:36
  the testimonials coming in and the outreach, then I was like,
• 30:41
  OK, this was this was good. This is this is touching people
• 30:46
  even that don't have dyslexia, but that have felt invisible in
• 30:50
  their life or currently feeling invisible in their life.
• 30:53
  And so then it was like, OK, this was this was the book I was
• 30:56
  meant to write. It's amazing and I, I think it'd
• 31:00
  be great as well for, you know, you said about people that that
• 31:03
  didn't don't even have dyslexia. I think maybe like partners,
• 31:09
  wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends of people who have
• 31:13
  dyslexia. I think it's a nice read for
• 31:15
  them as well because it it, it kind of shines a light on that,
• 31:20
  that feeling and you can't, it's really hard to explain to
• 31:25
  anybody what that emotion up there is like that invisible
• 31:29
  feeling. You know, for me, I didn't feel
• 31:33
  invisible. It's a similar word.
• 31:36
  I guess it might be, I don't know.
• 31:38
  I always felt a bit lost. I didn't felt like I was quite
• 31:43
  like if it was 10 people even. Even now really, if I go to a
• 31:47
  work event, I struggle. I struggle with that interaction
• 31:51
  of a lot of people. I tend to step back a little bit
• 31:53
  and I'll wait for someone to, to invite me in and maybe they'll
• 31:57
  step to one side and start talking to me separately.
• 32:01
  I will ever since I was a child, I've always felt I felt lost.
• 32:05
  So I, yeah, I, I'm going to give the opportunity at the end for
• 32:11
  you to give your details for people to, to reach out to you.
• 32:14
  And also, I think there's a, there's a discount on your book,
• 32:17
  right? Yeah, so it's still in the
• 32:20
  launch mode right now. So it is discounted through
• 32:22
  probably the end of the month and then in December the prices
• 32:25
  go up. And the e-book, if you have a
• 32:29
  Kindle membership, the e-book is free and or it's $0.99.
• 32:34
  So if you want to do the e-book, you know, it's it's, it's very
• 32:38
  affordable right now. I want to speak to what you said
• 32:41
  about feeling lost when you're in groups of people, because
• 32:45
  very much felt the exact same way.
• 32:47
  If I was going to an event, I would only go if somebody I knew
• 32:50
  was going, and I would plant myself next to that person the
• 32:54
  whole time and I would just follow them around.
• 32:56
  And so doing that, dropping into your core.
• 33:00
  So now I do that before I'll go into an event and I'll give
• 33:03
  myself the permission, talk to five, connect with five people,
• 33:07
  and then you can go. And so I walk in, I drop into my
• 33:11
  core, I find 5 people. And here's a beautiful thing,
• 33:14
  you don't even have to talk about yourself.
• 33:16
  If you just go into a conversation and ask them about
• 33:19
  them. And I call it, you know, forward
• 33:22
  questions. So ask them about their family,
• 33:23
  occupation, recreations or dreams.
• 33:26
  If you focus on them. People love to talk about
• 33:28
  themselves. They don't want to hear us talk
• 33:30
  about ourselves. So when we don't have to talk
• 33:31
  about ourselves, that's a beautiful thing.
• 33:34
  And then you connect with the guy in a deep meeting.
• 33:37
  That's my next mission. So you've got me doing videos,
• 33:40
  got me speaking. Next mission.
• 33:42
  Yeah. Next time we speak, we'll like,
• 33:43
  hey, listen, you know the group of people.
• 33:45
  I stand in the middle now. Yes, yes.
• 33:48
  And then you'll attract people to you.
• 33:50
  That's the beautiful thing. Well, I'll give it a go.
• 33:53
  I like that. It's a good idea.
• 33:55
  I, I, I mean talking about, about work and everything, you
• 34:00
  know, I mentioned this, this, this synonymous person that
• 34:04
  keeps messaging me and it is, it's playing on my mind a little
• 34:07
  bit because I really, really want to help this guy.
• 34:10
  He's obviously lost as well. Like we both were.
• 34:15
  I think, I think there's so many, there's so many struggle.
• 34:18
  You mentioned the figure of one in five.
• 34:22
  There's figures been banded around today in the UK about
• 34:26
  ADHD and and it's it seems to be that it's getting talked more
• 34:32
  about, but we still don't seem to be doing enough about it in
• 34:36
  the workplace. I'd love to kind of tap into
• 34:39
  your thoughts on the workplace a little bit.
• 34:43
  You know, missed opportunities from you.
• 34:48
  I mean, you've been a leader, right?
• 34:49
  You've been right at the top, top of the game.
• 34:52
  So give me your thoughts on on the workplace a little bit and
• 34:56
  you know, and, and what people might be listening.
• 34:59
  Let's let's go, let's go, right for the head honcho.
• 35:02
  So we're talking about the big, big boss.
• 35:04
  Yeah, well, it's. Give them one piece of advice.
• 35:07
  Yeah, well, if one if one in five people have dyslexia, and
• 35:13
  we know that there's millions of people that have never been
• 35:15
  diagnosed with it. And for those people that are
• 35:18
  listening to this that maybe have ADHD, 50% of people with
• 35:21
  ADHD have dyslexia and probably haven't been diagnosed with it
• 35:26
  because they got the label of oh, you have ADHD, so there you
• 35:29
  go, you're good. So if you are in a leadership
• 35:33
  position, you either are the person that has some sort of
• 35:37
  some kind of neurodivergence or you have people that work for
• 35:42
  you on your team that have it. And so if you are trying to
• 35:47
  manage and have everyone under you do the exact same thing,
• 35:52
  you're missing a huge opportunity and you're probably
• 35:55
  making people feel exactly like that person that you said
• 35:59
  comments on every podcast episode.
• 36:01
  There is somebody that's on your team that feels disconnected and
• 36:05
  is afraid and is not giving you the best part of themselves.
• 36:10
  And that's a missed opportunity as a leader.
• 36:14
  And that's why I think I was successful in a leadership
• 36:17
  position because I had that empathy and I always seem to
• 36:22
  inspire people that worked for me to be better.
• 36:27
  And that's what the power of being a leader that either has
• 36:31
  it or identifies that I probably have somebody on my team that is
• 36:35
  neurodivergent. How can I tap into what their
• 36:38
  quiet gift is? And, and on either side, because
• 36:42
  you're going to have those people that don't have dyslexia
• 36:45
  that love the numbers and the stats and the reading huge long
• 36:49
  reports. But so utilize them for that
• 36:52
  because they probably enjoy doing it because they're good at
• 36:55
  it. But then those people that that
• 36:57
  overwhelms them and they're not good and they struggle.
• 37:00
  And you can probably figure out pretty quickly those people that
• 37:02
  struggle with doing that, but find what those people that do
• 37:07
  struggle with that. Find what they love to do, find
• 37:09
  what they're good at. Because those people are the
• 37:11
  ones that usually can solve problems thinking outside the
• 37:15
  box because their brain is wired differently.
• 37:19
  They tend to be very creative. So if you can tap into that,
• 37:24
  you're going to build a team that is absolutely unstoppable
• 37:27
  because you're hitting it on all cylinders.
• 37:30
  You're you're, you're utilizing every single gift that every
• 37:33
  person on your team has. And so it takes awareness on the
• 37:37
  leadership side, it takes slowing down and being fully
• 37:41
  present. When we talk about being in your
• 37:43
  core, that is the best place for a leader to be is to be fully
• 37:47
  present because you can hear and identify things that you're not
• 37:51
  going to see. If you're you're leading from up
• 37:53
  here, just focusing on the numbers.
• 37:55
  If you're from down here, you're focusing on the people and
• 37:58
  building your people up. If you focus on them, all the
• 38:02
  numbers and everything else is going to, that's going to take
• 38:04
  care of itself. It always does so.
• 38:08
  I'm curious, I'm curious as when, when you're in that
• 38:12
  position as a leader, did you spot, could you spot
• 38:16
  neurodivergence? Because I kind of feel like it's
• 38:20
  not very often not, not, not so much since COVID, but in the
• 38:23
  days when I used to be in an office amongst lots of people, I
• 38:28
  kind of think I could spot and you're a divergent.
• 38:32
  So I'm curious as a leader, with you being as busy and as you're
• 38:37
  mind boggled with as much information as you had to
• 38:40
  process every day as a leader, did you still think to yourself,
• 38:44
  I wonder without actually asking that person, did you ever, ever
• 38:47
  kind of like think that you thought you knew?
• 38:50
  Yes, and for me, when I stepped into that leadership position,
• 38:55
  there was 0 training. It was just like, OK, you have a
• 38:58
  master's in, in leadership. You've been in leadership
• 39:00
  positions in the past. So here you go.
• 39:03
  Good. Good luck.
• 39:04
  You know, we'll, we'll, we'll talk to you later.
• 39:06
  And so for me, it was like, OK, none of these people know me,
• 39:10
  They don't trust me. And so I'm going to lean into
• 39:14
  the relationship piece of it and I'm just going to focus on each
• 39:16
  of them. And so I started meeting with
• 39:18
  all of my staff on individual basis.
• 39:20
  Then I met with them as a team. And I did that with all the
• 39:23
  agents in my office as well. It was, I want to meet these
• 39:26
  people. I want to get to know them
• 39:28
  because that's how you build trust, is building that
• 39:30
  relationship. It's, you know, caring about
• 39:33
  them. When you lean in and start to
• 39:35
  ask people questions about their family, what are their dreams?
• 39:38
  What do you, what is your long term goal?
• 39:40
  Do you see yourself in this position forever?
• 39:42
  Do you have other aspirations? Because I as a leader, want to
• 39:45
  help them aspire to whatever it is they want to aspire to.
• 39:49
  When you start, tap into that, it's pretty.
• 39:53
  You're pretty easily able to see that.
• 39:57
  You're able to see what it is that they like to do, what their
• 40:00
  gifts are. And then I was able to leverage
• 40:02
  that. So I was able to take the front
• 40:05
  desk person who had been there forever and hand off the stuff I
• 40:08
  hated, which was all of the contracts we had with vendors
• 40:12
  that took care of our building, like elevators and all that
• 40:15
  stuff. And so I was like, look, here's
• 40:16
  what I'd like you to do. I'd like you to reach out to
• 40:18
  each of these vendors. I'd like you to get new bids
• 40:20
  from them. I'd like you to organize it,
• 40:22
  keep us on maintenance schedule. I hate that stuff.
• 40:25
  I don't want to do any of that. I empowered her to do it because
• 40:28
  she'd loved it. She was great at doing it, and
• 40:31
  it took it off on my plate so that I could focus on the
• 40:33
  relationships with everybody in my building, which led to them
• 40:37
  increasing their productivity, which led to me starting to
• 40:40
  manage a second office and then becoming the vice president.
• 40:43
  And so when you lean into the the people part of it, it's easy
• 40:47
  to find out because when people know you care if that person,
• 40:52
  that individual that is commenting on your podcast knew
• 40:55
  that the boss cared about that hit them as a person and what
• 40:59
  they had going on in their life and what their aspirations were,
• 41:02
  that person would have No Fear sharing that, hey, this is what
• 41:06
  I struggle with. Don't even have to say you have
• 41:08
  dyslexia. It's like, Hey, here are the
• 41:10
  things that are I really struggle with.
• 41:13
  Here are the things that I'm really good at.
• 41:16
  Exactly. I don't think as as individuals,
• 41:20
  you and I, you now know what you're really good at.
• 41:26
  I'm still learning. I'll be honest with you.
• 41:28
  I think I do. Yeah, I'm getting there.
• 41:31
  But he's he's taking me a lot longer than it has you.
• 41:34
  But I think the moment you realize what you're good at,
• 41:40
  that gives you the ability to say to people, hey, listen, this
• 41:43
  is this is my left hand. I'm not so good with this.
• 41:46
  But you know what, my right hand, I'm really goddamn good
• 41:49
  with this. And, and I think the moment you
• 41:52
  understand that about yourself, and this is probably what this
• 41:54
  gentleman needs to do. And I'm not, I'm not telling him
• 41:57
  anything about it. So please don't do this.
• 41:59
  But for me, if, if I was in that position, I think after so many
• 42:05
  years, hey, I'd be scared because I'd be thinking to
• 42:08
  myself, am I going to get another job?
• 42:10
  I don't know how old this guy is, but maybe that's going
• 42:13
  through his mind. Maybe he's thinking, am I too
• 42:14
  old to get another job? So I understand that.
• 42:18
  But you've just, you've just all those years ago.
• 42:22
  I don't think you realized what you've just said all those years
• 42:24
  ago. You were practicing diversity
• 42:27
  inclusion, you, you all those years ago because your mind was
• 42:32
  telling you, right? I've got to make my life a
• 42:35
  little bit easier because I don't want to be doing these
• 42:37
  things, but this person loves doing it.
• 42:39
  So the common thing to do is to give this person something that
• 42:42
  they enjoy doing. And my reasoning behind this was
• 42:46
  one of the things he said to me last week is that he hates a
• 42:49
  Sunday night. And I typed back why?
• 42:52
  And he said because on a Sunday night, I know I have to go to
• 42:55
  work on Monday morning. And it broke me.
• 42:58
  I was like, you shouldn't, you shouldn't feel like that.
• 43:01
  And there's a lot of people. That feel.
• 43:03
  That way. Yeah, it's it's.
• 43:06
  Scary, it's scary. There are so many.
• 43:10
  There's a, there's a, I'll tell you this before we, before we,
• 43:13
  before we close off the, I just put it on LinkedIn today.
• 43:17
  This morning there's a study by the BBC about ADHD and that some
• 43:22
  hospitals now are not able to cope with the amount of people
• 43:26
  that need support and help so that they're just no longer
• 43:29
  doing it. There are people that have been
• 43:31
  waiting eight years to see somebody to get assessed, just
• 43:37
  to be told tattoo across the. Forehead, hey.
• 43:41
  You've got ADHD, you just mentioned about you would give
• 43:44
  it because you've got a degree. You just said there you go, no
• 43:47
  instructions, off you go. You're now a leader.
• 43:49
  Same with ADHD. And it's the not understanding
• 43:53
  of what to do with it when you're given it.
• 43:55
  That's that's the trick, knowing what to do with it, you know,
• 43:57
  whether it be as a parent, as an individual, you know.
• 44:02
  But yeah, I, I So one question then before we sort of reflect
• 44:07
  on, on, on what we've talked about.
• 44:09
  Pamela, now as you are right now, could you go back now and
• 44:14
  do what you did there? Could I go back now and do what
• 44:17
  I did then? Tell me, tell me more about
• 44:18
  that. So knowing what?
• 44:20
  You know about yourself now, the fact that you know what your
• 44:24
  your strengths are as a dyslexic, you understand your
• 44:27
  dyslexia. You know what you're good at,
• 44:29
  what your flaws. Do you think if you were dropped
• 44:31
  back in that position as a senior leader right now, do you
• 44:36
  think you do you think you would do better?
• 44:37
  Do you think you would do worse? Or do you think you wouldn't
• 44:40
  even want to bother going there? Well, part of me is like.
• 44:44
  I wouldn't even want to go there because I believe that
• 44:47
  everything that we go through in our life is leading us to where
• 44:51
  we're what our purpose is. And if I would go back and do it
• 44:56
  differently, I may not have written the book, I may not have
• 44:59
  done the podcast, and I may not have been on this mission.
• 45:03
  So I would say I, I don't want to go back because it's, it's
• 45:07
  been part of what's created the purpose that I have today.
• 45:11
  And so same with everything my childhood.
• 45:14
  I, I wouldn't want to go back and, and live a different
• 45:17
  childhood because somebody needs to hear what I have to say.
• 45:21
  Somebody needs to hear what you have to say.
• 45:24
  Somebody near needs to hear what all of us have to say.
• 45:27
  And so when when you said, you know, you're still trying to
• 45:31
  figure out what it is that you are good at, what your, your
• 45:35
  gift is, look at your life. What are the things that you.
• 45:39
  Love doing and when you're doing it it's like you're in this flow
• 45:42
  state and you could do it for hours and hours and it feels
• 45:44
  like time is is disappears those are the things that you're good
• 45:47
  at the things that you're like and you.
• 45:51
  Just are like dreading. In and it feels like it takes
• 45:54
  forever. Those are the things you're not
• 45:56
  good at. And so that's a simple, simple,
• 45:59
  what do you? Very interesting.
• 46:01
  Yeah, yeah. OK, right.
• 46:03
  Two questions. 2 questions. For you?
• 46:06
  OK, one is a question that I asked everybody.
• 46:08
  I'll say that till last. So if you had to give your bit
• 46:12
  of advice to 7 year old Pamela, what advice would you give her?
• 46:18
  What if she still feels invisible?
• 46:20
  What would you say to her? You are enough beautiful.
• 46:24
  Love it. That's that's just yeah, yeah.
• 46:28
  OK. Now I ask everyone this question
• 46:31
  and I'm expecting big things from you on this one.
• 46:34
  OK, No pressure. No pressure.
• 46:37
  Hey, take it, take it from there down here.
• 46:39
  I'm in my core. I'll speak from my.
• 46:41
  Core, so the reason I call. This podcast Thick No More is
• 46:45
  because that's why I was called pretty much five days a week in
• 46:48
  school. So I'd love to know, Pamela,
• 46:52
  what does thick No more mean to you?
• 46:54
  Thick No More is. Not seeing who you are as a
• 47:01
  limitation, but as a gift that will make you unstoppable,
• 47:06
  beautiful, that will definitely. Be used as a quote.
• 47:10
  So yes, very, very nice. Love that.
• 47:12
  So if anybody wants us to reach out to you, which I'm sure they
• 47:18
  will, first of all, tell them where they can find your book
• 47:21
  and tell them if if you're OK with it.
• 47:22
  What's the best way for someone to reach out to you if they want
• 47:25
  to have a chat with you or find out more about your coaching or
• 47:28
  I think the the absolute easiest.
• 47:30
  Way to do it is to go to my website, pamela@pamelacast.com
• 47:35
  and you will find a link to purchase the book on Amazon.
• 47:39
  You'll find a link to click if you want to have a conversation,
• 47:42
  if you want to call and do a Zoom call with me just to talk
• 47:46
  to book me to speak. That's really the best way.
• 47:49
  It's got all of my social hand social handles on their
• 47:52
  LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, all of those.
• 47:55
  And so that's yeah, if people want to reach out to me, I'd
• 47:58
  love to have conversations with people and inspire people to to
• 48:02
  take themselves to that next level.
• 48:04
  Amazing. Thank you.
• 48:05
  I'll put all of Pamela's. Details in the bottom of the
• 48:07
  podcast if anyone wants to click on it, it's there for you to
• 48:09
  click on. I just want to say, Pamela, I
• 48:12
  know it's super early. You're a beautiful person and
• 48:17
  what an amazing conversation this has been.
• 48:19
  I think for me, one of the big takes on this is, is that as
• 48:26
  individuals that we don't need to feel invisible or lost or
• 48:31
  hide. Maybe if we can do what you've
• 48:34
  done, which is stand up, own yourself and make yourself for
• 48:39
  the person you can be, I think we can inspire other people to
• 48:43
  do the same. And and yeah, listen, the book
• 48:47
  is amazing, guys. My message to all of you is if
• 48:52
  this is, if this is reached anywhere in your body where you
• 48:56
  think that's me, then reach out to me.
• 48:59
  Reach out to Pamela. We can help you.
• 49:01
  We can talk to you, maybe we can't fix it, but we can give
• 49:04
  you a tiny bit of glimmer of light at the end of a very dark
• 49:06
  tunnel. So and I hope that Pam has
• 49:08
  inspired you to go on and do wonderful things.
• 49:10
  Pamela, thank you so much. The best of luck with your book,
• 49:13
  The Quiet Gift, and reach out to Pamela if you want to connect.
• 49:17
  Thank you so much, Pamela. Thanks for being off thick.
• 49:18
  No more. Thank you.