Latest / The Curve / RTC117: Sex and money make the world go round, with Emma-Louise Boynton.

Transcript

RTC117: Sex and money make the world go round, with Emma-Louise Boynton. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Shurma were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:12
I don't really get the saying.
0:14
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
0:17
You know, I'm still not with you.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:21
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring, but it totally doesn't
0:26
need to be.
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Okay, okay.
0:29
So we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:32
The vegetables are good for you.
0:34
It's the brownie recipe.
0:35
Okay, we got there.
0:36
We got there.
0:37
Okay.
0:38
Well, you've really got a finance right?
0:39
Yeah.
0:40
One of us has to.
0:41
This is a show.
0:42
Okay.
0:43
Come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager.
0:45
Well, I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
0:48
And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:51
Oh, that's so not the joke, Vick.
0:54
Okay, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
0:56
Because together we really can raise the curve.
1:01
This is a podcast I've been looking forward to for a long time.
1:04
And we've had a booked in the calendar for like three months or something, didn't we?
1:09
And I was like, who's this email always pointing girl?
1:11
I was like, who is she?
1:12
And then did the research and actually met her?
1:15
Oh, yeah.
1:16
Did you run into her that?
1:17
So someone was like, you should meet Emma.
1:20
She's sitting next to you.
1:21
She was like making cup of tea or something.
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She wasn't actually there.
1:23
And I was like, oh, yeah.
1:24
She was like, yeah.
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She's got this great podcast called Six Talks.
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They do events and stuff as well.
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I know, it's in London.
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Yeah.
1:30
And I was like, what's her name?
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And he was like, Emma.
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I was like, hey, she's coming on a podcast.
1:35
And then it was like, from there, it was like, hey, I'm okay.
1:37
But yeah.
1:38
Anyway, and then she keeps sitting next to me.
1:39
It's kind of awkward.
1:40
Like, if she's blazing, I'm going to be listening to this.
1:42
So now you're going to be like, she said the other day.
1:45
She was like, I promise I'm not just following you.
1:47
I said, whatever.
1:48
Whatever.
1:49
You just eye up where I'm sitting and you just be lying.
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I was like, they can know of like the stealing draws.
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Like, both of them are hiding all their shit in the random.
1:57
Oh, okay.
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Sorry.
1:59
No, I can't space.
2:00
No.
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She is great.
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She is so fun to have around the office, the office hall.
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But also, really excited for you to hear this conversation.
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Because it was like relating sex and money.
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And they are two of the most taboo things to talk about.
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And having her expert knowledge on the six side of things,
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hours on money.
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Honestly, the relatability just like blew my mind.
2:20
Yeah.
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It was such an interesting conversation.
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We could have done an entire podcast just on, like, honestly, a whole series on six
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and money.
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Woo.
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Anyway, enjoy for all of the details to find out what Emma is up to.
2:32
We will put those in the show notes.
2:34
And so has no idea what to do with full skin.
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Just see if we are.
2:38
Oh, my God.
2:39
I can't believe he's just fucking it.
2:41
I just believe that we did brush over that in the interview, which I was so grateful for.
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I was just the whole time being like, my parents might listen to this, my parents might
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listen to this.
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I'm really excited to talk about this because I think the conversation of sex and money,
3:04
it's such a complex relationship.
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The two of them also totally mutually exclusive as well.
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But for anyone who doesn't know who you are, the things that you've done.
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Because I think a lot of our listeners are in Australia and New Zealand.
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So can you give a bit of a, like, hi, I'm Emma.
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I've been coming here for three years and two days and three days.
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Exactly in home.
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Yes, my name is Emma Louise Boynton.
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And I am a writer, a presenter, and the founder and host of a platform called SexTalks.
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Now, SexTalks exists to engender more honest, open, vulnerable conversations around typically
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taboo topics, including sex, gender, and the future of intimacy.
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So we have a really broad sway of the topics under that kind of intimacy and brother, I suppose.
4:00
So really deep diving into sex relationships in a way that, well, I think that as a society,
4:07
we now talk about sex a lot if you didn't realise sex cells.
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And it is everywhere in marketing on TV, love island, etc.
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But I think that the conversation publicly around sex tends to be quite a reductive,
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one or quite a sensationalised one.
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So either we talk about sex through the prism of porn or, like, reality TV,
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or it's something that ends up being banned and quite moralising conversations in politics.
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There's all kind of hand-wringing around pornography, for example, around sex work, etc.
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And I really wanted better conversations around sex to be having in a public domain
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experience doing sex therapy. I know we'll go into that momentarily.
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But I just felt looking around the conversations that we were having around sex just felt so narrow
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and lacking in the nuance and the vulnerability that I think is actually so important for a topic
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that is also just so frickin' universal.
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Is it a bizarre, it's the same with money, how much uncomfortable, like, nervous-switting,
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and, like, we're all just so uncomfortable talking about both of these conversations.
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Yeah, we both do both of them and have both of them in time.
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You can't do anything without money.
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Like, as you need money to live in this world, and also every, we're not every single human,
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but majority are fucking.
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Yeah, well, guess how we got here.
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Yeah, little secret truths.
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Oh, my God.
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Like, everybody is here because someone had sex.
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Yeah, I don't know.
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I don't know, I think about my...
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I don't know.
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Yeah, I don't know.
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I don't know.
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But, yeah, no, it's true.
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There's such taboo about talking about sex and money, the things that we do all the time.
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We make the world go round.
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Yes, literally, exactly.
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I'm sure.
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Money is how we try to keep that in.
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We cannot exist with it.
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The currency through which we barter with, it's the way in which we do all transactions,
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all deals, run all businesses, and sex is how we, one, obviously, procreate,
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and two, how we form deeper intimate relationships with a person, like, or people,
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that we're seeing.
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These are fundamental tenets of views.
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And having lots of both is so fun.
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That's the goal to be rich and fun.
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Oh, my God, I'm really...
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Oh, yeah.
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But I think that's also why I find sex and how it's such a fascinating topic.
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I'm sure we've got the same about money and that I think that our relationship to sex
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has a so much about who we are and how we show up in the world.
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And I think we can tell so much about our society through the things that we don't talk
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about as much as the things that we do.
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And so, for me, it's really interesting.
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I mean, any sort of, like, taboo area I find perennally fascinating,
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because I went, why do we have this discomfort around this topic area?
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Why is there a legacy of hush, hush around things that are so fundamental to being human?
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I think when you begin to ask those questions and have those conversations,
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you really get to the heart of, I think, well, how like power functions and who controls well.
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So I've definitely noticed in the last year or so of doing the curve that if something feels uncomfortable,
7:00
it's like, I'm kind of intrigued.
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Why do I feel so uncomfortable talking about this or approaching this subject or something?
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Because I think I was like that with money and then over the last...
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And sex, I would say.
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Yeah, yeah, but it's more just like, now I just can't understand why everyone isn't talking about money.
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So I was saying, with sex, it's probably the same.
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It's like, oh, it's been uncomfortable, but I'm like, hopefully it's a point where nobody's uncomfortable talking about sex.
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I don't know, it's just so liberating when you...
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Do you guys find, because of what you do now, that people now open up to you in a way that they never did before?
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Because I've definitely found, since running sex talks, because it's my full-time job,
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it's what I do the whole time.
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So when I meet somebody new, a couple months ago, I was in Lisbon and I joined this running group
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and I went running with this random guy.
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And very, very quickly, so I'd say, what do you do?
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And I'm like, well, I run a media platform and I'm like, how much can I bother to get into it?
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Anyway, then I have to talk about sex talks.
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The story is to why I set up sex talks is a very personal one to do with my own issues around sex, doing sex therapy.
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So very quickly, we go into quite intimate, personal, vulnerable terrain.
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And what I found as a result of that is that people in turn open up really fast.
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And so because I'm like, here you go, I'm offering this up.
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I have the wireless conversations with complete strangers who suddenly they're telling me about their relationship to sex,
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what shaped that when they were a young teen.
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And like this guy, he traded crypto.
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I was like, you've got to find out, bro, suddenly he's telling me about his relationship to his mum
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and like how he's always had a like fear of intimacy because of his parents' divorce.
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And so I feel like that by offering that up.
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So when we do break that taboo, actually in turn, people are I think so willing and actually eager to have those conversations.
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But that's like, I mean, you're a walking billboard for let's talk more openly about sex.
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And we're walking billboards for let's talk more openly about money.
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And I think you're so right.
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Everyone is absolutely craving the opportunity to explore and talk about these things.
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But unless you're given a safe space to talk about it, then you're not going to.
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I also think there's the opposite of that, which is the tiny, tiny percent.
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Like, yes, what we're doing is great.
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And we're encouraging conversation.
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And then there's also the minority that are like, oh, so money or like, you know, just like a bit arrogant about it
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or a bit like, we'll be out of the barn.
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And it was like everyone's like, oh, so what's your, what's your view on Bitcoin?
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And I'm like, you don't care about my view of Bitcoin.
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You just are trying to show your ego, you know, like it's just.
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I just feel like you probably might get there as well.
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It's kind of like, oh, a sneaks platform.
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It's always going to be two percent of judging.
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Oh, totally.
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And I've had that actually.
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Most people want to very quickly tell me about their relationships and their sex,
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the sex that they're having or not having, and ask more about my relationship sex,
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which is all completely fine because I felt like I offered up very quickly.
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But then sometimes, and this is something that is I think also more reflective of the attitudes around sex
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and the sex kind of world more broadly, is that I'll be met with an assumption that,
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oh, I'm, must be, on any fans, I must be.
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Or a goddess in beard.
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Do you feel like a lot of appreciation in the box?
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Oh, yeah.
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I'm just saying, just read it on that, but no judgment on anyone who is a sex worker
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who does any fans.
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I like, more power to you.
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But I think a quick assumption that because I have conversations around sex,
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I must therefore be, I think there's a misunderstanding.
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But yes, to your point, I really found that.
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Because I did almost like fetishizing you as some, because you speak about this,
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because I've got a friend who works in a similar space.
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And she finds that people will slide into her DMs or want to talk to her about it.
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Just because they're like fascinated by the fact that you're so open about it,
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it must mean that you tie people up on hooks in your bedroom.
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Do you know what I mean?
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It's like this, I remember.
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And I think it's similar with you with money.
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Yeah.
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I think that people, particularly with Vic, are just like, how many, how many houses do you own?
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Like, how many millions of dollars have you gotten, Vic?
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You know, there's like a, I mean, I immediately want to know that.
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How many houses?
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How many houses?
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Where should I be investing my crypto?
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I don't know.
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But I think, I actually think that's more on me though, because I think I,
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I did sex therapy.
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And can we talk about that?
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Yeah, I think that's probably, because then I will,
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I'm like, the impact that happens.
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I'm like, dangling the car.
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Because I've done a little bit of sex therapy,
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but there will probably be a lot of people listening who have no idea
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really what that even means.
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Yeah.
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And also, I think therapy has this connotation of, you need to have something,
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quote, unquote, wrong with you to go and sort out.
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And actually, there's so much conditioning that we grow up
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with around sex and money and relationships and love and everything.
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I really view therapy in a completely different way.
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I think that if I could afford to do all different types of therapy all the time,
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I would love to be doing that.
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So there's probably a lot of people when they have sex therapy,
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they think, like, do you have a janitor?
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Or have you got problems with it?
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It's like, no, actually, I was trying to unwind a lot of stuff
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that probably most people listening would also benefit from.
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So could we maybe even just start from where did you find yourself
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when you thought, okay, I kind of want to explore what's happening here
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and dive a bit deeper, because it's a brave thing to do.
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And not that many people have done it.
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Yeah, I mean, so I didn't know that sex therapy existed either.
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I had no idea.
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And I didn't have that, like, sudden moment personally.
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Oh my god, I need to fix this thing.
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So I was at dinner party with a group of semi-strangers.
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It was in that period in which we were coming in that lockdown.
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We were in kind of an out period.
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And I'd gone to dinner party and I was talking to these two women.
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And I didn't really talk about sex that much.
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I mean, I know it's very hard to believe now.
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But I just wasn't a sexual person.
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And I didn't really enjoy sex that much.
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So I just had a lot of anxiety around sex.
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I broke up with my, like, one, like, really long-term boyfriend
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to be broke up with.
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I broke up with him, like, mid-20s earlier than that, actually.
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And the sex that had been, like, great.
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Had us issues, but, like, it wasn't a mass problem.
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Communication issues, definitely.
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But it was very after that.
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I then started dating different people.
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Had one night stands.
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And I just, I think it brought up a lot of past, quite bad experiences with sex.
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So sexually assaulted when I was, like, 17 as a family woman.
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I had an eating disorder growing up.
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So I didn't have a regular relationship to my body.
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And these are all things I didn't really realize that, overtly,
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that they were affecting my, how I shut up and intimacy,
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but they definitely were.
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And so I'd gone a day and I just feel so nervous and anxious
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about the point at which we'd eventually have sex.
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I would just, I'd be, I'd be so in my head.
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And I couldn't orgasm and partner sex.
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So I just stopped being able to orgasm, basically.
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So I noticed that we don't always have to have a problem to go to therapy.
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I actually did at that point have what I now understand to be called situational
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analgasmia, where in certain situations you're not able to orgasm.
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And it's a psychosomatic issue in that it's really in your head.
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Not always.
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It'll be different for different people.
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But for me, it was very much my head.
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I didn't know any of that.
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I was at the dinner party saying to these two girls where I just met,
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yeah, I just don't like sex.
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I'm not a sexual person.
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I can't come in partner sex.
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I'm just, yeah, it's just, it's not for me.
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It's just not my thing.
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And I kid you not both of them looked at me in horror.
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And it transpired that they'd actually both gone to see a sex therapist
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and the same sex therapist who's based on Australia actually lived by Bondi Beach.
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And they'd both become evangelicals for the cause of sex therapy.
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So they started telling me about their respective experiences,
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but they did separately, by the way, they're just friends.
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And how much sex therapy had changed their relationship to sex so profoundly.
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And one of them just said to me, you know this is something you actually can address.
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You can change this.
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And I guess for me, it's a bit of a light bulb moment because I never thought that
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my relationship to sex was something that could be changed.
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I thought it was a static thing that was just bad.
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That had always been like a bit shoddy,
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but then in the past like six or half of many years, I wasn't able to,
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all guys, that was kind of cemented as like a just a bad thing.
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And it wasn't something I needed to address.
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So they gave me her number.
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And I love a good business incentive.
15:01
I then was telling my friend, Charmedine Reed, who I was working with at the time.
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I was working for her platform, the stack.
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And she was like, you need to write a column about this.
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Write a column called Conversations with My Sex Therapist.
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And then we'll cover your sex therapy.
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Great, because I know.
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I know.
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Okay, I'm going.
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I'm going.
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Yeah, props to Charmedine because it's such a good idea.
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Such great title for a series, for an article series.
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And it was also the thing that actually made me do it.
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And I don't think I would have done it otherwise.
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So I started doing sex therapy.
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How much is a six here?
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Plus by the way.
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Yeah, to be like subsidized.
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Yeah.
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So I, luckily for me, I didn't pay.
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It was paid for by the stack.
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So I was writing about it.
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So full trans branch on that.
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But I think it was about 80 pounds per session.
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So it's expensive.
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Yeah.
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But, say, hello worth it.
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It's not interesting though.
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For turn on and be smiling pretty high.
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But, but I think.
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How much is the orgasm worth?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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More than 80 pounds.
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Honestly, I'm like, relatively, how much do I pay to basically be able to come again?
15:59
Yeah.
16:00
Worth it.
16:01
Worth it.
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Worth it.
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I think the money piece is massive when it comes to therapy.
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I think there's a lot more people who would pay for any kind of therapy if it was subsidized.
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And it's unfortunate that sex therapy is not considered.
16:15
You know, I doubt there'd be any like insurance or like health insurance that would subsidize something like that.
16:21
You know what I would say on that, though, is that it was really transformative for me.
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Not in the way, not really in the way I thought actually in that I started talking to this amazing therapist Alex over Zoom.
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And quite quickly we went into my history of eating disorder, sexual assault, all these things I really hadn't thought of as being critical to my relationship to sex.
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And she said something to me that has actually fundamentally transformed my relationship to my body in a way I wasn't anticipating.
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And she said, for as long as you're at war with a body, it's going to be really hard to enjoy sex and really hard to experience pleasure.
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Because at the moment you're just seeing a body as something you're in a constant battle with.
16:58
Yeah.
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And I was quite badly blemic since I was 12.
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And as a result, it is so young.
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So when you look at 12 year olds now and you just think, gosh, they're babies.
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You're an absolute baby.
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They're absolute child.
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And that's when I first started getting developed in eating disorder and then I was anorexic and then I was blemic.
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And I just had an acknowledged that that was part of my life because I'd become physically better and I didn't look ill anymore when you're anorexic.
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People are always worried about you and it's actually quite bad and some even though I get it.
17:27
But then after that, I was still, I didn't realize how disordered my relationship to food and to eating was and to exercise.
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And also the fact that I was blemic, which is this thing, it was like this, I mean, talk about taboo.
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And we're in a culture that's still lured, being skinny and associates thinness with discipline, being thin and being alright.
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So there's a kind of weird fucked up kind of glamour to it, especially now.
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I was in like the whole ozampic craze, et cetera.
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But believe me as gross, it's messy.
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It's disgusting.
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Like it's not something you want to talk about.
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So I didn't talk about it.
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I didn't tell anybody.
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Anyway, this all came up in the sex therapy room.
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And it really forced me to confront the fact that I had made myself really unsafe in my own company.
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And that when I'd spend an evening on my own, I'd spend that evening cooking and then throwing up.
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I didn't know how to be on my own and look after myself.
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I didn't know how to just be kind to myself in a really basic way.
18:15
We took a lot about self-care now.
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I had no real meaningful, active way of caring for myself personally.
18:21
And so we started off on some quite small task.
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She said to me, like, you need to learn to produce yourself.
18:28
You need to learn to become safe in your own company.
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And not just safe, but actually like a jury in your own company.
18:33
You need to build that sensual sexual relationship with yourself first and foremost
18:37
before you even think about what that would look like with the partner.
18:40
But to go back to a point, the reason I wanted to say all of that is that
18:43
the therapy aspect of it was so important to me because it was the first time in my life
18:48
that I was talking to someone openly and honestly about my relationship to my body
18:53
and my relationship to sex, and it was in a shame for the environment.
18:56
Because I'd carried so much shame around.
18:58
Eating disorder, it was like my dirty little secret.
19:00
And you wouldn't have guessed.
19:01
You would not know.
19:02
I'm super confident.
19:03
I'm really bubbly.
19:04
Bubbly is such an awful word.
19:05
But you know what I mean?
19:06
You know what?
19:07
So it's so bubbly.
19:08
She's so bubbly.
19:09
She's so bubbly.
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So you're like, down and see it.
19:11
Yeah, she was just so annoying.
19:13
Probably so.
19:14
But I would be sorry if you were able to just go like this.
19:17
I know.
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I probably do.
19:19
But it is just like, yeah.
19:21
It's a dark one.
19:22
But I was like, you never guessed.
19:24
I'd then like, you know, it was at a dinner and I'd be like,
19:26
oh, freaking bubbly.
19:27
And then I'm going home to put myself sick.
19:28
It just was so incongruent with my extended personality.
19:31
So it was just kind of this private shame.
19:33
The same thing with sex.
19:34
When I told about sex, all my friends.
19:36
And this is probably true about money as well.
19:38
As far as I was aware, all my friends were having amazing sex
19:41
all the time.
19:42
They were having great check.
19:43
They had no anxiety around sex.
19:44
They would be able to have one night stands, you know,
19:47
meet someone, give them a blowjob.
19:49
And I was there like, how?
19:51
How are you not racked with anxiety every time you get naked?
19:55
Oh, my God.
19:56
It's exactly the same as I do.
19:57
Because it's going to be so fun.
19:58
You just have to be rolling in it, got their finances sorted, you know,
20:01
on the way to their goals.
20:02
Well, it's similar to how externally you look a certain way.
20:05
Yeah.
20:06
There's no idea what's under the surface.
20:08
You could be driving an Audi.
20:09
But in debt, up to your eyeballs.
20:11
Yeah.
20:12
You could be rolling in those beautiful clothes.
20:13
But you can't afford them because you're enough to pay for it.
20:15
Wearing absolutely like cheap clothes.
20:18
And driving a box car.
20:20
Box car.
20:21
But the saving.
20:22
Yeah.
20:23
And I've seen more now than ever because of social media.
20:26
The exterior is how we typically judge people through what,
20:29
through the lens of their social media.
20:31
Yeah.
20:32
And I think now, like, I sometimes think this might be like, outwardly,
20:35
I get very, like luckily, I get kind of some free things because of what I do.
20:40
Maybe I'll get invited to like a cool party.
20:42
You get any spare providers in your life.
20:44
I've got my wife, please.
20:45
But I can definitely get invited.
20:46
But it looks exactly like I have loads of money.
20:48
Like I have this cash.
20:49
But like, I'm not paying for that.
20:51
And I don't know.
20:52
Like this is doing.
20:53
Well, we didn't get, but I'm not.
20:54
I don't have no money.
20:55
I'm like, I'll pay every.
20:56
All my money goes on the business on like one and paying freelance and stuff.
21:01
So I just think now more than ever is a kind of incongruence with the external version
21:06
of ourselves that we portray and put forward online.
21:08
And the reality behind the scenes.
21:10
And I think that's very true with both sex and with money.
21:12
But what I want to say is on the therapy thing.
21:14
Can you tell she's got ADHD too?
21:15
You know how we do the whole like, we've got a point.
21:17
And then we go this way.
21:18
And then we go this way.
21:19
And then we go this way.
21:20
But I just want to say some of the parts of the therapy.
21:23
No, I'm bad for you.
21:24
Like I think it's, it's, and also can I just say like it's so, so, so refreshing and amazing
21:31
to hear someone that has spent the time looking at their own sex story and can then communicate
21:37
that for other people because I do think it is similar as well.
21:39
So the way that we talk about money.
21:41
If you can show someone, this is where I was.
21:43
And now through doing the work, I've ended up here.
21:46
It's the same with money.
21:47
Like you're not going to just be able to figure out your relationship with your finances in
21:50
a couple of days or some pre-podcasts.
21:52
It takes a week to build your relationship with ourselves for 32 years.
21:55
Yeah.
21:56
So it's going to take a while to unwind it.
21:57
Sorry.
21:58
No.
21:59
And it's really an interesting.
22:00
I actually, the next therapy I'm going to get is money therapy.
22:02
Because I want to get I need to unpack that.
22:04
But just on the, on the sex therapy front, it was really important for me to be in that
22:08
context of doing sex therapy.
22:09
And yes, it is quite expensive.
22:10
Each pound session.
22:12
But what I would say is that what was so transformative ultimately was getting used to talking about sex.
22:18
And talking about it in that shame for your open environment.
22:20
And I think there are other ways of doing that.
22:23
It doesn't have to exclusively be in the context of therapy.
22:26
And what I mean by that is, I think when it comes to the more kind of traumatic,
22:30
even sort of sexual trauma, they're obviously there stuff there that I think you really benefit from having a professional.
22:36
Definitely where you can unpack those things in a way in which someone's created a safe space.
22:40
They have the like correct toolkit to help you process those things.
22:43
It might, you might not be able to offer Apple at once, et cetera.
22:46
But I think for a lot of people and Dr. Karen Garnie actually says that she's an amazing sex therapist.
22:51
You can all buy her book called Mind the Gap and she's got a new book coming out next month.
22:55
But she talks about the fact that most people don't actually need sex therapy.
23:00
But do need to get more comfortable talking about sex.
23:04
So she says, listen, I'm trying to do myself out of the job.
23:06
But she was like, a lot of people who come through my therapy room door don't need to be there.
23:10
What their problem is they just need to get better at communicating around sex.
23:14
And there doesn't have to always be in the therapy room.
23:17
So if you're someone that's thinking, God, I really would like to improve my relationship to sex.
23:21
I have shame around sex.
23:23
A lot of that can be like religious, based shame, gender based shame, previous traumas, et cetera.
23:28
Or someone who has just never really felt they found their kind of true sensual self.
23:34
I think there's a lot that you can do that doesn't incur the cost of going to see a sex therapist every single week.
23:41
But just, I mean, you can listen to podcasts, go to events, come to sex, or obviously.
23:46
And I think actually it's the act of getting comfortable with thinking and talking about sex in an unshameful way can be transformative in and of itself.
23:56
I went to see a psychic.
23:59
It was like six months ago.
24:01
And it's funny.
24:02
Some people were like, it's really off-brand for that.
24:05
Can I just say, like, brand-inly, she'll be like, I've seen a psychic.
24:08
And I'm like, I love that fear, but I'm also like, we added a sober up brand.
24:11
No, she was recommended by a friend about it.
24:14
Is it the same one you saw when you broke up with your boyfriend like a few years ago?
24:17
No, definitely.
24:18
She just kept telling the same stuff and I was like, do you just rent some repeat?
24:23
Yeah.
24:24
This one.
24:25
And she was like, she told me a lot about relationships and then she was like, I think you need to go to a 10 to 6 class.
24:32
And I was like, absolutely not.
24:35
But it sends me a like, I've got to go to a 10 to 6 class.
24:38
I was like, will you come with me?
24:39
I was like, will you come with me?
24:40
And then I was like, is it more awkward to go with a friend?
24:42
Or like, what are we going to be doing?
24:43
And we're going to be like hugging?
24:45
Or like, you know, like, I was just like, I have no idea.
24:47
The thought I've still haven't booked because I'm like, absolutely not.
24:50
I'm like, the thought of booking.
24:52
I would love to go.
24:53
But see, I'm just like, I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't want to be having orgasms in front of you.
24:59
I know, but this is the thing.
25:01
I think it's gained.
25:02
It's my ignorance.
25:03
It's my the fact that I haven't spoken about sex with, you know, head open conversation about sex.
25:08
So that I'm almost, it's such a gigantic.
25:11
It's a scary daughter all the time.
25:13
And it's exactly the same with money.
25:15
It's like, oh gosh, no, I don't even want to open that box because I don't even want to know what I don't know
25:20
or what I need to know or what I can improve on.
25:22
I don't know.
25:23
And I think what you said about the way in which people can explore the idea of talking about sex
25:28
to open up their minds and comfortable with it in general.
25:32
I think you can, you can use that exact same framework if it comes to trying to improve your relationship with money
25:38
because if you just say to a friend, hey, do you have shame around talking about it?
25:45
Or, hey, have you ever asked, you know, what they earn?
25:47
Or, do you invest and do you feel comfortable having a conversation about it?
25:51
Or do you have credit card debt?
25:52
Or like, have you, like, had a blowout in the weekend ever where you're like, got a budget,
25:57
but you don't stick to it?
25:58
Or like, yeah, just,
25:59
people are like, oh, of course, all the time.
26:01
Oh, my gosh.
26:02
Okay.
26:03
I actually always ask people how much they earn.
26:05
And how much this, well, their salary is how much they, I love that.
26:08
I really do enjoy asking the questions that come that I make exactly the same.
26:13
I believe that you make people feel quite uncomfortable, not because I want to make someone else feel uncomfortable.
26:16
That's never ever my intention.
26:17
But I'm genuinely curious about how much people make.
26:21
And especially working when you run your own business, I've always been freelance or run my own business.
26:26
But there is such a lack of transparency around how much people make and the kind of deals that people are making.
26:32
And when you don't have the infrastructure of a company behind you,
26:36
there is no way for you to get more information and get those like kind of financial details
26:43
that maybe you would have in the context of a company where there's maybe like a pay grade system or something that you,
26:47
there's some degree.
26:48
I don't know how much to choose.
26:49
I've never worked for a big company permanently.
26:51
But how there must be like more like a little bit more miserable visibility.
26:54
Where's when you work for yourself, you really have to figure everything out on your own.
26:58
So I've so gotten habit of asking people all the time, like, what is your salary?
27:02
Or like, how much did you get sponsorship for?
27:03
Or like, what, how much does that cost you?
27:05
And I think the more you get comfortable with asking those sorts of questions,
27:10
you also give people the space to then ask you in return.
27:14
And it's the same around sex.
27:15
Like we're all, as we said at the start, this conversation,
27:19
sex and money are things that we all are having to grapple with daily, basically.
27:24
And I guess it's pretty daily.
27:26
Even if you're not...
27:27
Grab playing with sex daily.
27:28
Yeah, I mean, even if you may not be having sex daily.
27:33
Sorry, Miss, I've had one week off of sex.
27:36
Oh, chill out.
27:38
He'll be here in a second.
27:39
God.
27:42
But don't you reckon when you start hanging in again and then you realize,
27:45
Oh my God.
27:46
Which should I forgot how fun it is?
27:48
Oh my God.
27:49
Like, it's so weird how I think if you don't practice your own,
27:52
like where you know how you said to juice yourself and get used to like buying
27:56
beautiful laundry and just dancing in front of a mirror and putting like lovely candles
28:00
and good music on and actually feeling safe in your own company.
28:03
I think unless you're doing that in between being with people,
28:06
like having a partner sexually,
28:08
I reckon my sex drive completely disappears.
28:11
Like I've forgotten what sex is.
28:13
You're like, I don't need it.
28:14
I don't need it.
28:15
Oh, yeah.
28:16
No, I need it.
28:17
I was like, I was like, I was in a Aladdin's class the other day.
28:19
And the spring was going in and out of the thing.
28:21
Honestly, I was like, I'm so horny.
28:24
But there would be a time where that would not have even crossed my mind.
28:29
Do you know what I think is a good way to relate that to money as well?
28:33
Is that we're quite unconscious in the way that we spend money
28:36
and the way that we use our wallet and our cards and everything.
28:39
We're really disconnected from the emotional piece that connects
28:42
how you spend with then how you feel.
28:44
And I think that it's really true what you're saying about that relationship
28:49
with your own body, with relationship to sex.
28:52
But it's also exactly the same when you're thinking about like often I spend money
28:57
and it makes me feel so anxious.
29:00
Or I'm the total opposite and I'm like, God, I felt so good.
29:03
That was such a highlight of my way and I felt really empowered by it.
29:07
I think that there's a really interesting piece between both of these conversations
29:12
with sex and money where the same concept can be applied.
29:16
If you just tune into your body and how you feel doing something,
29:20
what you learn about what makes you happy or sad or anxious,
29:24
like you learn from those things.
29:27
How do we make those conversations more open and have them
29:32
in much more like comfortable environments?
29:34
Like what were some tips amongst friends or your partner
29:37
or apart from going to sex therapy?
29:40
What tips do you have to make people comfortable?
29:44
So when I think of when it comes to sex specifically
29:47
and I think you probably apply the same thing to money,
29:49
it's I think first and foremost, it's really basic.
29:51
But it is just like beginning to have those conversations
29:54
to broach them with friends, to broach them with a partner.
29:57
And something that always comes up at sex talks.
29:59
Honestly, like pretty much every single session.
30:01
So we do a Q&A at the end.
30:02
And people always ask, how do I tell my partner
30:05
I don't like sex we're having?
30:06
How do I...
30:08
Oh, I would be so...
30:09
Can you imagine if you haven't said that for five years?
30:13
Yeah, I can.
30:14
Oh, 100%.
30:15
And you assume that's just...
30:17
That's what it is, isn't it?
30:19
Yeah, and you don't think to question it.
30:21
And also you don't want to broach it because you don't offend them.
30:23
Oh my god.
30:24
So something like that.
30:25
So very, very common.
30:26
Also like mismatched desire, which is really complex.
30:28
Oh my god, this is actually...
30:29
Actually, like I reckon we could take every word,
30:31
every sex word out of this podcast and replace it with money.
30:34
Can you relate back to that?
30:36
I would love to hear that.
30:37
No, in terms of it's uncomfortable.
30:38
It's like, you don't want to talk about it.
30:39
So you just like go and said it's quote.
30:40
If you're splitting things 50, 50 or if they're paying for everything.
30:44
But you don't want to rock the boat.
30:46
You don't want to have that conversation.
30:47
You don't want to talk about your goals and shared values and likes.
30:50
You're so true.
30:51
And also, gosh, I reckon so many people would be intimate with someone
30:55
before they even have a conversation with money.
30:57
You know, like you get someone to know every inch of your body
31:00
before you know how much they are.
31:02
Some people don't care to not even talk about what they're supposed to do.
31:04
But also I think also people probably get intimate,
31:06
have kids before talking about sex.
31:08
Yeah, exactly.
31:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:10
Yeah, yeah.
31:11
Like because we don't...
31:12
And Emily Nagoski's amazing sex therapist
31:14
who is the bible around female pleasure specifically called Come As You Are.
31:17
Oh, it's really published.
31:18
Have you read it?
31:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:20
Ten years ago, it was published now.
31:21
But she says that people are...
31:23
We really need to question our sex culture
31:27
when people are more comfortable just having sex
31:29
and actually being able to talk about it.
31:31
And that's the same with money.
31:32
It's just these things that we're doing.
31:34
Like because it's unavoidable.
31:35
We're not like...
31:36
Most time you can't avoid having sex from...
31:38
I mean, you can.
31:39
And totally if some people are very sexual, that is totally fine.
31:41
But most people are having sex and points their life.
31:44
And we're all spending money.
31:45
Like, you gotta spend money.
31:46
We live in a capitalist society.
31:47
So these things...
31:48
We're doing these things.
31:49
We're going through the motions.
31:50
But we're not acknowledging the processes that surround them.
31:53
Our relationship to them.
31:54
How we feel to earlier points, Sophie.
31:56
We're not...
31:57
We're not like confronting what that relationship to money,
32:00
what that relationship to sex, what has...
32:02
But that's based on what that's been informed by.
32:05
And we're not like exploring that relationship
32:07
thinking how could this relationship be better?
32:08
And we're not thinking that it could be better.
32:10
It could be better.
32:11
Exactly.
32:12
Imagine if we talked about money
32:13
and actually combined our values and our goals
32:15
and achieve something better.
32:16
Or like, you know, like,
32:17
combine both about expertise.
32:19
And same with sex.
32:20
Imagine if we opened up and talked about it
32:22
and discussed what we both wanted to make this like
32:24
bigger and better.
32:25
And like, oh, I'm just saying.
32:26
It's like, I'm really increasingly...
32:28
We're not like we're such an interest in intimacy.
32:31
And how intimacy is evolving in a very digital world,
32:34
in which we're so used to having so many of the conversations
32:37
that we have day to day mediated through technology.
32:39
And what that's doing to our capacity for intimacy
32:42
in person intimacy.
32:44
And I remember Chloe McIntoshy runs the sex platform Karma
32:48
said this once in a talk.
32:49
She was like, we're seeing with younger people
32:51
they're so used to everything being digital
32:53
that when it comes to then having sex,
32:55
they have no idea how to communicate vulnerable
32:57
or intimately in an environment
32:59
which they're like, line it, keep with somebody,
33:01
which is completely understandable.
33:02
But I think when it comes to, like,
33:04
it's such a form of intimacy
33:05
to be able to talk to someone about your body
33:08
and their body and how it feels and money.
33:11
There's some really, though, because they're still, I guess,
33:13
to do latent topics,
33:15
it's such a deep form of intimacy
33:18
to be able to go that with somebody.
33:20
But I think we lose out and so much from we don't.
33:23
And I saw something the other day,
33:24
although it was a supposed article,
33:25
maybe it's like sometimes this week,
33:27
of someone saying, I would never tell my partner
33:29
how much I earn and I would never have,
33:31
and then went married.
33:33
I would never tell them my salary.
33:35
And I'm just thinking, if you're choosing
33:38
to build your life with somebody
33:40
and you are entering into,
33:42
what is also fundamentally a, like,
33:44
economic institution, a gay marriage,
33:46
to then not have the visibility
33:48
on your respective earnings?
33:51
I find, like, that's a key form
33:55
of element of intimacy
33:57
that you're completely overlooking,
33:59
the importance of.
34:00
And I imagine really ignoring it,
34:03
you're really bizarre.
34:06
She's talking about it as absolutely,
34:08
but bizarre.
34:09
It is.
34:10
But then I also thought,
34:11
because I was then obviously thinking about that sex,
34:13
like, imagine if you went in and you didn't explore sex
34:16
into the partner.
34:17
But then I thought,
34:18
and this is why I do want to also do money therapy,
34:20
I can totally imagine doing that.
34:24
I can imagine not wanting to tell a romantic partner,
34:27
like the truth behind my income,
34:29
and many because I don't know.
34:31
But I reckon the reason that you're,
34:33
but I think, would you feel like that,
34:35
if you're talking about the truth behind your sexual experience?
34:38
Sex, fine.
34:39
See, that's what I mean, though,
34:40
is I think money used to it.
34:41
But that's what I mean.
34:42
Yeah, but that,
34:43
because I feel, it's learnable.
34:44
Yeah, it's what I mean.
34:45
I feel really comfortable talking about my,
34:47
like, money situation,
34:49
and what I earn,
34:50
and all of that now,
34:51
but I'm still dipping my toes into the sex side of things.
34:55
And I do think it's just, like,
34:56
what vercast before,
34:57
like, how can we actually increase these,
34:59
like, the frequency of these conversations,
35:01
and the depth of them,
35:02
and learn from each other,
35:03
it's just having them.
35:04
Oh, so how do you,
35:05
like,
35:06
like, I'm sitting with my partner.
35:07
Yeah.
35:08
And I'm, like, unhappy in my sex side.
35:10
I'm not, but, like,
35:11
just, if I,
35:12
So this doesn't come up all the time.
35:14
Yeah.
35:15
So it comes up all the time, sex talks.
35:16
And the thing that,
35:17
most sex therapists have said to me,
35:19
in an interview,
35:20
is that, think of these conversations.
35:22
If it's the first time
35:23
you'll broke your conversation
35:24
with a about sex,
35:25
with a partner,
35:26
it's obviously quite a heightened.
35:27
Like, it's going to be,
35:28
you know,
35:29
you're not used to it,
35:30
it's going to feel quite galling, perhaps.
35:32
First of all, don't do it in an environment
35:33
which you're having sex.
35:34
So often people would think,
35:35
like,
35:36
okay, you're actually going to wait until you're like,
35:37
naked and you're fucking to be like,
35:38
by the way,
35:39
actually don't like this way.
35:40
Like, that's quite,
35:41
you've done this way for like five years,
35:42
but now I'm actually like,
35:43
obviously in the moment,
35:44
something doesn't feel good.
35:45
You should say,
35:46
like, that I don't like that,
35:47
can you do something different?
35:48
But I think if it's a kind of,
35:49
if it's a bigger point about the way
35:51
that you like to have sex.
35:52
I don't like it.
35:53
You do something differently.
35:54
I'm like, no, I'll put my hand up.
35:57
Do this, do that again.
35:58
Because also,
35:59
I think we have to give
36:02
like other person the opportunity
36:03
to respect our boundaries
36:05
and to love it when I get told,
36:06
like,
36:07
and I get it.
36:08
I'm like, oh, thank goodness.
36:09
I know,
36:10
I'm scared.
36:11
I'm scared,
36:12
I'm scared.
36:13
You know, I'm like,
36:14
do I hold it tight?
36:15
Do I not?
36:16
You're like, I really appreciate someone
36:17
being like, this is actually how I like it.
36:19
And I also,
36:20
and I think the same with people,
36:21
you're super like,
36:22
I've really, you know, I,
36:24
I don't know,
36:25
I don't want to mention anyone personally,
36:26
but I think,
36:27
I've been really pleasantly surprised
36:29
by the willingness and openness
36:32
of people I've slept with,
36:34
not all,
36:35
but some,
36:36
to be like,
36:37
tell me what you like,
36:38
and to really like,
36:39
wow, to like,
36:40
add to what I say,
36:41
but sorry,
36:42
to go back to the thing
36:43
about how you wrote the conversation.
36:44
So first of all,
36:45
not in a high vulnerability,
36:46
high octane environment,
36:47
like actually having sex.
36:48
So outside that context,
36:49
and then,
36:50
to be able to bring it up
36:51
in a way that doesn't feel
36:52
so kind of confrontational or loaded.
36:54
So maybe saying something like,
36:55
oh, you know what,
36:56
I listened to this podcast of the day,
36:57
and they were talking about the relationship
36:59
between sex and money,
37:00
and I'd never really thought
37:01
about my relationship to sex.
37:02
I'd never really thought,
37:03
but actually,
37:04
I feel quite a lot of shame
37:06
about my body,
37:07
like naked,
37:08
and then I actually got down
37:09
a bit of a research hole,
37:10
and so you bring it up in that way,
37:12
so it's saying like,
37:13
oh, I've got really curious
37:14
about this thing,
37:15
because it's not something
37:16
I've thought about before.
37:17
But there's,
37:18
and this is kind of the third part
37:19
you're bringing in.
37:20
Oh, maybe you'd enjoy this podcast too.
37:21
Hey, is there something
37:22
that we could explore together?
37:23
So you make it something that it's like,
37:25
you know,
37:26
you're bringing your partner
37:27
into that discussion
37:28
and being like,
37:29
oh, I'm super curious about this.
37:30
Can we work on this?
37:31
Or then, you know,
37:32
I listened to a,
37:33
a kink podcast,
37:34
and they were talking about how roleplay
37:35
can be a really amazing way
37:36
of helping you get out of your head
37:37
and into your body
37:38
when it comes to sex.
37:39
Oh, my God.
37:40
I really want to explore that.
37:41
I just,
37:42
I just think I'd start laughing.
37:43
I know.
37:44
I don't know if I could do,
37:45
all my sexual fantasies in my head.
37:46
I even find dirty talk.
37:47
Like,
37:48
I'm saying,
37:49
I know,
37:50
and the same thing I want to get into it,
37:51
but then, especially,
37:52
yeah, I bar out.
37:54
But I also think,
37:55
maybe there's something in that,
37:57
like,
37:58
if you're having those,
37:59
if you're able to laugh,
38:00
like,
38:01
that is kind of beautiful,
38:02
don't you think?
38:03
I also think it's so dependent
38:04
on your partner,
38:06
whether,
38:07
like, whoever it is you're doing that with,
38:08
it's such a partner,
38:09
whether it's a long-term relationship or not.
38:11
And I think
38:12
there's so many people,
38:13
I'm sorry,
38:14
people,
38:15
I haven't slept with that many people,
38:16
but there are people I've slept with,
38:17
like,
38:18
there's like,
38:19
nowhere in hell
38:20
that I would, like,
38:21
feel comfortable
38:22
enough to be able to,
38:23
even entertain the idea,
38:24
roleplay,
38:25
do I talk anything?
38:26
And then,
38:27
I like,
38:28
I've met people then,
38:29
and I'm like,
38:30
actually,
38:31
you make me feel so comfortable,
38:32
and so at ease,
38:33
and there's this kind of,
38:34
there's a playfulness
38:35
in the sex that we have
38:36
that makes me feel like,
38:37
oh, actually,
38:38
I can actually imagine
38:39
being able to do anything
38:40
with you,
38:41
because it doesn't feel like
38:42
this is a kind of very
38:44
performative,
38:46
the performativity is joyful,
38:47
and there's no judgement,
38:48
and it's almost like,
38:49
if you're comfortable
38:50
having those conversations,
38:52
I also think it,
38:53
yeah, it depends on the person,
38:54
if you're opening up to them
38:55
of like,
38:56
what you have discovered
38:57
and what you,
38:58
what you want to try,
38:59
or what you
39:00
wanting to learn about yourself,
39:01
if they're
39:03
confrontational,
39:04
if they're just like,
39:05
no, absolutely not,
39:06
or like, not open to it,
39:07
I think that's probably
39:08
a big red flag,
39:09
and it's exactly the same
39:10
with money.
39:11
So if you're like,
39:12
look, like,
39:13
how much do you earn,
39:14
or like,
39:15
a wall that goes up,
39:16
it's like,
39:17
okay, why is there such a
39:18
red flag?
39:19
Why is there such resistance
39:20
to these conversations?
39:21
But also using the exact same
39:22
thing that you said about
39:23
talking about sex,
39:24
at finding context
39:25
to talk about money.
39:26
Yeah, yeah.
39:27
Whether it's a podcast,
39:28
so don't bring it up
39:29
when you're splitting a bill.
39:30
Something I would love to talk
39:31
about is the combination
39:34
of earning money for sex,
39:36
or exchanging sex for money,
39:39
or the space of sex workers,
39:42
and how it is so incredibly
39:44
recognized in society,
39:45
and comparing that to other
39:47
ways we use our body
39:48
to earn money,
39:49
how can we reframe
39:51
that conversation
39:52
or at least encourage people
39:53
listening to think about it differently?
39:55
Because I know that my perception
39:57
on sex workers is warped
39:59
and needs some serious
40:01
love and attention.
40:02
But I don't really know how
40:04
to explore that
40:05
as a concept,
40:06
and I imagine that's something you've
40:08
met a lot of sex workers,
40:09
and people who are
40:11
in that industry.
40:12
How can we look at that,
40:13
with different eyes?
40:15
I think first and foremost,
40:17
speak to people who work
40:18
in the industry.
40:19
And if you don't know anyone
40:20
who works, who is a sex worker,
40:22
there is so many podcasts now,
40:23
where you can listen to a sex worker
40:25
talk about what they do.
40:26
And I think a lot of time
40:28
when we demonize individuals,
40:31
when we kind of scapegoat people,
40:33
and that's always really what's happening,
40:35
actually, it's a scapegoating
40:36
of a sex worker
40:37
as being like the cause
40:38
of sexual issues,
40:40
which they are not.
40:42
Oftentimes, that happens
40:43
because we just don't,
40:45
it's more of our ignorance.
40:46
We just don't really know much
40:48
about who they are.
40:49
And then I think sex workers
40:50
particularly have been so,
40:51
like sex work broadly,
40:52
it's been so sensationalized
40:53
in the media,
40:54
that I think it's just important
40:55
to hear from people
40:56
whose job it is,
40:57
who are doing sex work.
40:59
And hear from them
41:00
what their experience is,
41:01
and why they got into it,
41:02
and what they're doing.
41:03
And I think there's so many amazing
41:04
podcasts and resources
41:05
that people can go to.
41:06
But I think there is still
41:07
so much stigma around sex work.
41:08
And I actually interviewed
41:09
Sarah Pasco,
41:10
the comedian of the day,
41:11
for sex talks.
41:12
And she's just written a book,
41:13
sorry, she wrote a book
41:14
a few years ago,
41:15
called Sex Power Money.
41:16
And she said,
41:17
I feel like I remember
41:18
saying you read this book.
41:19
Yes.
41:20
Oh my god, I've been carrying
41:21
around the office for like,
41:22
you know, I'm seriously,
41:23
I'm just trying to finish this book
41:24
for the interview.
41:25
Honestly, I'm like,
41:26
they're trying to,
41:27
they're trying to consume
41:28
so much information
41:29
but not feeling like it's,
41:30
it's going in.
41:31
But with this book,
41:32
I asked at the beginning,
41:33
kind of how much of your view
41:35
on sex work specifically
41:37
and then the issues
41:38
surrounding it,
41:39
did you have,
41:40
were challenged in the process
41:41
of writing this?
41:42
And she said,
41:43
from the absolute get-go.
41:44
And I thought her story,
41:45
her individual story,
41:46
I think is kind of quite
41:47
symptomatic
41:48
of how a lot of us
41:49
come to think about sex work.
41:50
So she is a card carrying feminist
41:52
and has been since day dot.
41:54
And she said that as a result,
41:55
her view on sex work
41:56
was very much coloured
41:58
by pretty like quite a second wave
42:00
feminist thinking
42:01
that sex work is inherently exploitative
42:04
and it kind of props up
42:06
being a sex work because
42:07
it's women being compelled
42:09
due to economic circumstances
42:11
that may be in,
42:12
to use their body
42:13
and basically to be abused
42:15
and exploited by men.
42:16
And so that was kind of her,
42:18
like the background,
42:19
her kind of like feminist
42:20
feeling that sex works
42:21
there for was something
42:22
that we need to protect women
42:23
from what is
42:24
a instrument of patriarchy.
42:26
And she said,
42:27
as soon as she started writing the book,
42:28
and actually speaking to sex workers,
42:30
that feminist stance was completely challenged
42:33
because she was like,
42:34
You can be against sex slavery, not you can be, you should be, like sex slavery is one thing.
42:38
But too often, especially within media discourse, sex slavery,
42:41
aka when people are forced into sex work, is conflated with sex work.
42:46
As she spoke to us, I have lots of people who are actively choosing to be a sex worker
42:51
and there's nothing wrong with that, it's one of the oldest professions that humans will be able to do.
42:55
And to your point, so if you're like, there are lots of different professions in which people use their bodies
42:59
in a very physical way, which have like physical impacts on us,
43:04
that aren't demonised in that same way as sexual influences.
43:07
Like, sorry to use like a very obvious one, but that bikini influences all that.
43:12
What is the difference? You're being paid to put that, you know,
43:15
what you feel comfortable making money through is not going to be the same.
43:19
That's how everyone else feels comfortable with making money.
43:21
They're using their bodies, like.
43:22
100% and put it up.
43:23
And I think there's definitely, I guess the thinking within the feminist,
43:28
so in the second wave discourse around sex work, I disagree with it,
43:33
but I understand the idea was that there's a very specific risk associated with sex work
43:39
in that the capacity to be raped without.
43:41
There's a very, I guess the risk associated is a very potentially traumatic one.
43:47
But ultimately, it's not for anyone to decide how someone else should use their body
43:54
and what makes someone else feel empowered.
43:56
What makes me feel hot and sexual empowered?
43:58
It's going to be totally different to what makes you feel hot, sexual empowered.
44:01
So why should we judge anyone for how they choose to use?
44:04
I know I'm just used, but celebrate their body.
44:07
And I think separating that from like sex slavery or in sex workers
44:11
and people that don't want to be there and don't want to do that, but are forced into it.
44:14
I think is very different because in my mind, it's all about control and position
44:22
and end, but I'm very much thinking of sex slavery and not sex work.
44:27
But it's the same.
44:28
And I think that's for a lot of people is that it's men controlling women.
44:33
And it's the same with money.
44:34
It's men controlling women by keeping them in secrecy and not talking about money and not giving them the freedom
44:40
to have their own money or spend their money how they want.
44:42
Or make educated decisions to look after themselves where it comes to sex or money.
44:47
I would love to talk about that, like the patriarchy in terms of how that power
44:51
has been taken away from us when it comes to sex and money.
44:55
Why is it so important for these conversations to be brought out of the shadows
44:59
because how will it then benefit us as women to take that power back?
45:05
Because just to what you're saying that, I think, like you think maybe you finish it?
45:09
Just like with only fans, for example, like I loved that because it was power back to the female
45:14
in terms of what they charge, what they put on there.
45:17
You know, like it's not that forced control element.
45:20
Whereas if you're working for someone that gets there.
45:23
So I think, yeah.
45:24
And I think that's, so I think only fans has had a really massive impact on our broader social view on sex work.
45:31
It's kind of brought it more into, I guess just more of a kind of part of the public conversation.
45:35
I think only fans is like legitimized it a bit more.
45:38
Just slightly helps like remove that to be.
45:40
I think it's become so much more complacent, which is an article in the FT.
45:43
Actually, I think a week and a half ago with the CEO of only fans discussing only fans on a platform.
45:49
And obviously you answered questions about the sexual content,
45:51
but also the content on the platform more broadly.
45:53
There was another piece in Days magazine just a few days ago talking about how reality TV stars as a growing kind of more obvious pipeline between doing reality being going on only fans.
46:03
So I think there is more of a kind of conversation around sex work by way of only fans that's kind of maybe helping to break down the taboo a little bit.
46:11
But the thing is, even with something like only fans, we saw in October 2021 only fans came out and said they were actually going to stop all sex content that was being made in the platform.
46:20
I don't know if you remember that.
46:21
That's right.
46:22
And it was because there was an issue with the credit card companies who were saying they no longer would allow only fans to use their credit card payment systems if they had sex like workers on the platform.
46:32
And like sex workers only fans, sex workers have made only fans only fans is big because of sexual content on there.
46:38
So it was this real and there was a huge pushback as there should have been of people saying like this is insane.
46:44
Like we have built sex workers have built this platform.
46:46
You cannot now ban us from the thing that we've essentially made successful and quite quickly they did rowback on it.
46:52
But what that situation highlighted was just how complicated this terrain is because the credit card companies have a huge role in this.
46:58
And it's really hard to earn money through sex because of the payment system.
47:05
So for example, with pornography, I interviewed Vex Chambers who runs a porn platform called Four Chambers.
47:11
And she said that setting up a payment system for that is basically impossible.
47:16
They get denied left right and center.
47:17
It's like with us, we tried to sit on bank account and they're like, what are you doing?
47:20
We're like financial education.
47:21
They're like, oh, you're pretty risky.
47:22
What if you accidentally give advice? So what if you get?
47:24
And I was like, we're financial education.
47:27
It's like, oh my, get up with the play.
47:29
You know, it's like so old.
47:30
Welcome to the real world.
47:31
Yeah, there's lots of diverse industries that do creative things.
47:34
Exactly.
47:35
And now imagine someone saying we make porn.
47:37
And like they imagine the reaction to it.
47:39
But then she's trying, she's creating a platform where she also pays her porn performers fairly.
47:44
She's like paying everyone's debt.
47:46
In order to create a better porn industry, everyone needs to be paid.
47:50
But if you have an issue getting paid, you really limit also independent porn creators
47:56
from growing.
47:57
So then we just have these huge monopoly companies that then end up having this kind of
48:01
basically running the whole porn industry, not all of it, but having a huge, huge
48:05
take it most of space in the porn industry because they have that leverage of being that size.
48:09
So I think there's so many hurdles that people who work in the sex space have to confront
48:16
because of how the social taboo around sex and specifically sex work has been ingrained
48:23
within our financial system and our political system as well.
48:28
So it's difficult from a financial perspective.
48:30
For example, the credit card thing.
48:31
There's also constantly, there's like moralizing political debates in Parliament.
48:35
But like there's this hand-rearing ground like all porn is really bad.
48:38
You know, we need to stop telling kids about, you know, how to give blow jobs, which is like,
48:42
it's so far from what's happening in what is quite beautiful sex education.
48:46
So there's just so many ways in which our public conversation around sex is being stymied
48:52
by this like hangover, this like legacy of the taboo around sex.
48:57
And I think that'll take so long to change.
49:00
You know, like that will take generations, which unfortunately like I wish it would happen sooner.
49:04
But I think when you've got generations of people that have been taught this or educated about this
49:10
or you have a view of a certain thing in a certain way, like,
49:14
un-teaching that takes a long time.
49:16
And it's the same with money.
49:18
Like it's like, we're considered over-shears and like, oh my gosh.
49:22
Why is there so much shame with money in sex?
49:24
I don't understand.
49:25
Why?
49:26
Like control.
49:27
But some we talk about that because I think it's, it sounds so obvious to say it's control and knowledge is power.
49:32
But why as women are we the ones that are often so shafted, excuse the pun.
49:38
But like from the fact that these two particular taboo conversations,
49:42
we've been told that taboo, we've been told not to talk about them.
49:46
And how does that disempower us without us realizing?
49:48
The question is really, why do we have patriarchy?
49:52
Because money and sex, we said at the beginning, are like the two key,
49:58
literally money and sex make the world go round.
50:00
And we live in a patriarchal society where women have only, in very recent history,
50:07
been able to open a bank account, take contraception so they don't get pregnant every time they have sex.
50:13
We have only recently allowed to go to university, get an education, go into work.
50:16
So we've only very recently been permitted to end the public space,
50:20
to have sex that the rest of our lives being governed by children,
50:25
and to have our own income so that we can spend and we can make decisions based on.
50:32
So this is recently made, this is a little bit of freedom.
50:35
It's like we're kind of coming out from the bloody caves or whatever, you know,
50:39
like it's honestly, it seems so okay.
50:41
Exactly. Do you think of how, if you think of the Broadway of history,
50:44
how small a little pocket of history this is,
50:47
where women have actually had these forms of liberation, really.
50:51
And then you look back, therefore, to answer your question to me,
50:54
if you look back at history, who's benefited from women not having access to money
51:01
and women not being sexually liberated and being like a patriarchal system.
51:06
I know.
51:08
And by the way, whenever I say anything like this, I do,
51:11
I'm not saying like, you know, all matters shouldn't be terrible.
51:14
But we have lived in arguably in a patriarchal system,
51:19
where men have had a specific, have been designated with a very specific role,
51:23
which in itself is problematic because they've been, you know,
51:26
compelled like shipped off the wall, they've been, had to be the breadwinners,
51:29
such like it doesn't, Patreon doesn't really benefit anyone.
51:32
I think it's really important to, I actually really love that you've brought that up
51:35
because I do think, because we've recently realised,
51:37
there's actually quite a few guys that listen to this podcast,
51:39
which I'm so stoked about.
51:41
But I think it's, it is really important to say like,
51:44
yes, there's some men that have benefited from patriarchy
51:47
and some that are really pro-it, but it's also not across the board.
51:50
And I think it's not like we're blaming anyone.
51:54
We're just like a year of why society is the way it is,
52:00
and we've come from.
52:02
Yeah, and how much further we've got to go.
52:04
Exactly. And I also think it's important.
52:06
I mean, the church also plays a big role in this,
52:08
because think of how much the church has been the,
52:10
what if the church has basically been the custodian of social morality
52:14
for so much of history.
52:16
And the church has a whole lot of stuff to do with when it comes to sex.
52:20
I mean, the kind of puritanicalism,
52:22
but then also the religious dictates around sex,
52:26
and relationships, and sexuality,
52:28
which are honestly like so fictional.
52:30
They're like manmade. I mean, the misreading of religious texts,
52:32
I mean, is kind of, you know, the,
52:34
really kind of summarized history.
52:36
But the church has played a big role,
52:38
and then creating quite a very kind of moral framework around sex.
52:42
It's on Catholic church, like sex being specifically for children,
52:46
women being seen, like depicted in the Bible as being
52:50
needing to be like kind of puritanical,
52:52
and like a good woman is virgin.
52:54
Original and puritanical, women who like the virgin Mary.
52:56
I mean, the fact that the Mary was deemed a virgin, I'm like,
53:00
it's just not how it works.
53:02
Like did she aim that scene?
53:04
And that's exactly what she would have been like.
53:06
Oh, shit, I had sex, I wasn't mean to.
53:08
I promise I haven't.
53:09
Yes, this is a memorable journey.
53:11
And I think took that in it, you know,
53:13
and even the story around the garden of Eden,
53:15
and Adam and Eve, and Eve,
53:17
in the Apology, like she is the first example of sin,
53:20
and badness of women, and these like corruptors of morality,
53:23
and our sexuality is so bound up with that,
53:25
like with these temptresses, and that's our sexuality,
53:28
and it needs to be reigned in,
53:29
so always like, we're going to corrupt men as well.
53:31
It means all such bullshit,
53:32
but it's all carries so much cultural currency and weight,
53:35
and has such a big influence on how is society,
53:39
C-sex, and also C,
53:41
our kind of gender relationship sex.
53:43
So to go back to your question,
53:44
so if you're around kind of why sex has become,
53:47
is so taboo, I just think there's deep diving
53:50
into the history of patriarchy,
53:52
which is the history of society and culture,
53:54
and go actually just interviewed Nona Aronowitz,
53:57
who's written a book called Bad Sex,
53:59
and her mum was a very prominent second-wave feminist
54:04
in the 60s, radical feminist,
54:06
who pro-sex, radical feminist,
54:08
and in this book, Nona grapples with what it was,
54:12
kind of a lot of her mum's writings around their free love movement,
54:16
around kind of sexual revolution that happened in the 60s and 70s,
54:19
and she provides a really interesting sociocultural history of that period,
54:22
and how transformative it was for women
54:25
and our relationship to sex,
54:27
and then the legacy of that kind of pro-sex movement,
54:30
and what that's meant now,
54:32
and she gives really interesting context in now,
54:34
like kind of given kind of a hook-up culture,
54:36
absolutated sex culture now,
54:38
how much of that is a legacy of like the feminist synonymising sexual freedom
54:43
with women's empowerment,
54:45
and is that always a good thing?
54:48
Question mark above that.
54:49
So it's a really good resource for anyone who is interested
54:52
in kind of going a little bit deeper into that kind of control element,
54:56
and the power dynamics have always been wrapped up in our relationship to sex,
55:00
and concurrently to money,
55:02
because obviously the sexual revolution was off the back of women's liberation,
55:07
and that was women being able to money go out to vote,
55:10
and to earn money to go into the work force,
55:12
because it's so interrelated.
55:13
So, so interrelated, like honestly,
55:16
I kind of didn't realise,
55:18
like I'm always like,
55:19
when I talk about sex in my life,
55:21
oh they're so related, but it's like when you actually dig into it,
55:24
I'm like, oh my goodness, I need to go out and talk and have more sex conversations.
55:30
Yeah, it's true.
55:31
Yeah, gosh.
55:32
Honestly, I just feel like this is a whole podcast itself,
55:35
like the relationship between sex and money is just so deep.
55:39
I feel like I've learned a lot though,
55:41
and there's probably quite a few people who have listened to this and want to know
55:44
if they want to learn more about what you do and the work.
55:48
Yeah, I mean, maybe even in our show notes for this podcast,
55:51
we could put a couple of key resources that have been mentioned,
55:54
because there's a really interesting stuff.
55:56
I want to re-listen and take notes.
55:59
I'm like, there's so many podcasts and books you mentioned.
56:02
Yeah, amazing.
56:03
I do end up coming off probably like a bibliographics.
56:05
No, it's so good.
56:06
I like, because I introduce so many people, I'm like constantly.
56:08
You have a great memory.
56:09
I'm more like, this one girl, what was her name?
56:11
You know?
56:12
Yeah, I know.
56:13
She was thinking, if we could learn something from Emma and let's talk about it.
56:16
We can't even remember our episodes or what we talked about.
56:18
Was that episode between you two?
56:20
I don't know.
56:21
I don't know.
56:22
Oh, but I do think if there's any takeaway from this,
56:25
it's the idea that yes, that uncomfortable prickly,
56:29
I don't want to go there, which we have all of us with sex and money.
56:33
As soon as you start to see the results of being brave enough to step into that
56:37
and over that line that feels really fearful,
56:40
what comes is going to be positive eventually.
56:43
And I just think being brave enough to have these conversations
56:46
with yourself first and then with those around you
56:49
is only positive for us and for the collective.
56:53
So yeah, thank you for opening up.
56:56
A pleasure.
56:57
Our eyes towards the six combo.
56:59
And I think we probably both need to sidestep away from our money combo.
57:03
Let's go with a touch of our shop.
57:04
Also, let's do a joint event on money and six.
57:07
Yes!
57:08
How if it were that big?
57:09
Let's do a six talks on that.
57:11
Sex and money.
57:12
You can just do this.
57:13
Out of that.
57:14
Yeah.
57:15
Money talks.
57:16
Money talks.
57:17
Money talks, sex.
57:18
Money talks it.
57:19
Six talks, money.
57:20
Sex talks, money.
57:22
Oh, I like it.
57:23
Let's do it.
57:24
Let's do it.
57:26
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
57:28
These conversations are designed to teach you everything that you need to know
57:32
to be better with your money.
57:33
From saving, to investing, to talking to your friends about your salaries.
57:37
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
57:40
If you could hit the subscribe button, please.
57:42
Yes, please.
57:43
Or, leave a review.
57:44
It'll only take five seconds.
57:46
And it would really make our week.
57:48
Our year.
57:49
Our month.
57:50
Okay.
57:51
Lots of love. See you soon.
57:52
Bye.
57:55
Bye.