Latest / From the Founding of the City Archives - The Partial Historians - Ancient Roman History with smart ladies / Episode 130 – The Cossus Controversy
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- Dr Rad 0:16 Welcome to the partial historians, Dr G 0:20 we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:23 Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:34 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:43 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad. And I'm Dr. G. Looking very glamorous with a sort of almost iridescent eyeliner today. Dr G 1:20 Thank you, I crunched up beetle shells myself. Dr Rad 1:24 How very antiquity of you. I feel very Egyptian thing. I like it. I like it. So we are an ancient Roman History podcast. we're delving through the Roman Republic at this point in time, aren't we Dr. G? Dr G 1:39 We are we've been tracing room's history from its foundation. And here we are in a roundabout for 36 BCE. Dr Rad 1:47 Well, you just hold on to your horses mercy, because I have a little bit more to say about 437. I'm afraid. I know. So let's do a little bit of a recap of Dr G 1:56 Allah. Wasn't that the you were too long years got stabbed in the groyne? Was it? Dr Rad 2:03 This is the question that we're asking. We ask the big questions on the partial historians was a man stabbed in the groyne. Dr G 2:12 There was a story about that. Dr Rad 2:14 All right. It definitely was a question of when it happened, I suppose. Oh, yeah. And if indeed Yeah, exactly. So what we were dealing with was Rome has been as usual in conflict with some neighbouring areas. That's what was happening in fourth Dr G 2:29 era bully, they don't know how to get along with anybody. Dr Rad 2:31 Well, to be fair, to be fair, this whole affair that we've been dealing with recently was sparked by someone else's actions. And they were just responding in kind with a snap to the ground. So what happened was we have one of their colonies FedUni, which had decided to treacherously switches. Can you imagine not wanting to be part of room? Yes. So they had changed their allegiances over to the address guns lever move? Yeah, absolutely. Who is still here, it is something of a force in the north in particular. And this led to a battle in which the actually not the Roman commander. I think I said the Roman commander, but actually not the dictator, but a young man by the name of cosas, Dr G 3:24 who becomes super famous for killing Tulum news on the field of battle. Yes, so famous that he's compared to Romulus himself. Yes, Dr Rad 3:32 exactly. So this guy's a big deal. We did raise some questions last time about exactly when the slang of the Etruscan King to lameness Dr G 3:43 actually happened. We're in a very hazy period of American history in terms of the chronology as it were. And I think this is going to not be cleared up for another 10 years or so. Dr Rad 3:51 Yeah, basically, we have accounts that place it in 437. But certainly there are questions raised about maybe it happened in 426. Because this is a very on again, off again, kind of issue that the Romans have. Dr G 4:07 Can't hold on to LIS who knew? Dr Rad 4:09 Yeah, so because there is this on again, off again, nature, it's possible that the exact chronology is a bit confused. And I must admit, I was pretty convinced by the idea that to lameness as the king and therefore the leader of these interesting forces that the Romans were fighting, I was kind of convinced by the idea that it would make sense for him to be killed in the final year of the conflict. And that to be like a signal of Right, yeah, done. Yeah. Over Yeah, rather than in the very first year, but nonetheless, it does crop up and forth. The Dr G 4:42 tragedies happen and the Etruscans have 12 kings, so maybe they can find another one from somewhere else to die later. Dr Rad 4:47 Exactly. Anyway, so we've got this whole idea of cosas, managing to defeat to laminators in battle, mano a mano, and being able to strip him him of his spoils. So his armour, his weapons, that kind of jazz, you know, and then getting to take part in this very special dedication ceremony where he dedicates this Bollier Optima, which is all that stuff. All that stuff is nicked off the guy's body. Yeah, exactly in the temple of Jupiter Farah treatise. Hmm. Which is you highlighted it's very, very special thing to do. It is super special. And not many people do it. Yeah. The only person to do it before cosas was apparently Romulus, which is saying something because as we've highlighted, he's probably fictional. Dr G 5:37 It was a long time ago, and nobody's sure anymore if he was real. Dr Rad 5:41 Yeah, exactly. Now, before we move on into the next year, I wanted to highlight a particular passage of Livy, which is connected to these events. So last episode, we talked about what the scholars think about this event and the potential haziness around the reporting of it. And I thought, I'm actually going to read out this entire passage of live events, very controversial passage. And so I think it bears repeating in full. So you ready? Oh, yeah, I'm excited. Yeah. So living himself actually acknowledged that there was debate over exactly what happened. Good man. He's done his research. He kind of has Okay, and I think you're gonna be very excited when you find out exactly how he's doing his research sorry. For my living voice, following all previous historians, because of course, we all know the Romans British, stated that all this Cornelius Corsas was a military Tribune when he brought the second spoils of honour to the Temple of Jupiter trees. But besides that, only those are properly held to be spoils of honour, which one commander takes from another commander, and that we know no commander but him, under whose auspices the war is waged, the very words inscribed upon the spoils, disprove their account and mine, and show that it was as console that cosas captured them. Dr G 7:17 This makes sense, actually. It's like, it's very bizarre to have a moment where you're like, ah, an enemy commander has killed another enemy commander in battle and like, and his name's costless, and he's not on the controller list for this year. You're like, Oh, awkward. Dr Rad 7:32 Exactly, exactly. So it's exactly what he's highlighting that hang on a second. There was a dictator. And because this actually wasn't the commander, this is just some Dr G 7:41 dude. Yeah. Dr Rad 7:42 Okay, now, this is the power you're going to get really excited. So okay, here we go. Having heard from the lips of Augustus Caesar, the founder or renewer of all the temples that he had entered the shrine of Jupiter Farah trees, which he repaired when it had crumbled with age, and had himself read the inscription on the linen breastplate. I have thought it would be almost sacrilege to rob casus of such a witness to his spoils as Caesar, the restore of that very temple, where the era in regard to this matter lies in consequence of which such ancient annals and also the book of the magistrates, written on linen, and deposited in the temple of manita, which lies Kenya's may or may serve you prefer sites from time to time as his authority only gives all US Cornelius courses as console with Titus quinti is pointless. Seven years later, is a matter on which everybody is entitled to his opinion. For there is this further reason why so famous a battle could not be transferred to the later year that the consulship of courses fell within a period of about three years, when there were no wars, owing to a pestilence and dearth of crops, so that certain animals as though death registers offer nothing but the names of the consoles. The third year after Costas is consulship, saw him military Tribune with consular powers, and in the same year, he was master of the horse, in which office, he fought another famous cavalry engagement. Here is freedom for conjecture, but in my opinion, it is idle, for one may brush aside all theories when the man who fought the battle after placing the newly won spoils in their sacred resting place, testified in the presence of Trooper tar himself, to whom he had out them and do Romulus witnesses not to be held lightly by a forger that he was all us. Cornelius Costas console. Microphone drop. All right. So let's unpack this a little. Yeah, Dr G 10:18 there's a lot going on here. Dr Rad 10:19 There is a lot going on. But this is actually probably one of the most controversial passages of Livi. Dr G 10:25 Oh, no, it's why he has done his best work. How can this be controversial? Yes, exactly. It's gone and talked to people. And he's looked at some evidence and, you know, some reliable sources, nobody's going to distrust or Gustus? Surely not. Well, it's Dr Rad 10:37 just so fascinating, because he is highlighting all the things we've highlighted that there's so much confusion in this period. And it's partly because we've got some similar names that keep coming up in a very short period of time. And there do seem to be like multiple battles, which maybe events from those battles have been slightly confused. He has sources, these unfortunately, basically non existent earlier records, which we only now have, like very, Dr G 11:05 like he's working on, like scholars that we don't have access to ourselves, like yours may. So we don't have a lot of, and he's going to console a list. So he's going to fastI. Yeah, they're a little bit more reliable, but they're also a bit gappy. Well, yeah, depending on what the time period is. I like this idea that there's pestilence, maybe one of the things that needs to be kept in mind. Absolutely. I haven't come across any pestilence in the last few years. But I'm wondering if that some are about to hit us. Dr Rad 11:38 I think I think that we can we can feel the plague, that skins ability. But definitely I love this questioning. But also, I mean, the reference to Dr G 11:48 Yeah, well, I Okay. So I guess has kind of been the only person who went into that try. And it's not like he by hand himself is restoring the temple. Like, that's just not even on, but he might be one of the few people who had entered into the interior shrine itself in a very long time. So part of what happens with temples and structures like this is that you do have an interior chamber for the most sacred things, which is under the purview of whichever priesthood is looking after that particular temple. Yes. So but their job is not to go in there and sort of like, look at that stuff and hang out is just to make sure that things are intact. So they're not really going to be spending a lot of time necessarily studying the items that are in there, like sort of shrine or archive as it were. Yeah, that's not necessarily part of their job. So it's quite possible that that has been maintained, but needed to be opened. Yes, as part of the restoration process to make sure everything's okay. And Augustus might have wanted to have been part of that it's plausible that he would have a sneak peek in there because he's that kind of guy sticks his nose into everywhere where it doesn't belong. Dr Rad 13:00 Lexa Alexander's grey? Yeah, Dr G 13:02 exactly. It's like, I just need to see Alexander for myself. And I was like, that's gross. He's been dead for ages. Dr Rad 13:09 Well see, okay. I was intrigued by this at first, because it's unusual for any ancient historian to go into this kind of detail about their source material and their process. It's significant depth. Yeah, it is. It is really interesting. But obviously, the reference to Augustus Well, there's a whole nother spin on things strategy. And I was very mean. I'm not gonna say that he's alive, but he's alive. So shock, Augustus has been known to, you know, spinner through things. He's a bit of a master manipulator. You know, I think this is him. But there's this, I do think there is also the element which Livy is quite right to point out that if this breastplate is actually there, and crosses did actually dedicate this breastplate swearing that he was console to Jupiter. I mean, that's a big lie to tell, dude. So there are lots of different things going Dr G 14:06 on here. I mean, we could just check by opening up the shrine and having a look for ourselves. Dr Rad 14:12 Patrons get on to it, we need some money Dr G 14:15 to Jones hat. Dr Rad 14:18 Yeah, so I was very fortunate to stumble across this really in depth article which went through so many layers of this one passage. So it's by Dylan sailor, it's called dirty linen fabrication and the authorities of living Augustus, which I think is an amazing title, dirty linen, I know, which is obviously like a reference to the fact that we're dealing with a linen breast fillet we're also dealing with potentially this source called the linen rolls. Dr G 14:45 I'll be honest, a linen breastplate at first blush doesn't sound like it's going to be much use for defensive purposes. Dr Rad 14:50 Like it's no wonder he got set to the point. It has a lot of questions, but he goes into each detail now I'm not gonna go through Through all of this, this very amazing academic article, but there were some interesting elements which he highlighted, which I thought bear mentioning. So his point of view is that the way that Livy very carefully records this passage, and what happens is that he is kind of linking the evidence that Augustus has offered to him with some early events from Roman history that he's already reported on, which involve supernatural elements coming into play. Okay, and like possible embellishment, or aspects of like fabrication and that kind of thing. So for example, when the king NUMA would go for a stroll with a goddess. Dr G 15:44 Yeah, very plausible. Definitely happen. Yeah, Dr Rad 15:46 exactly. Those sorts of things where it's like, Dr G 15:48 did Augustus look into that archive as well? Like she's real. They found her in the forest myself. Dr Rad 15:54 Exactly, exactly. And there also have been questions raised about when Livy put this passage in, like, did he did he originally publish it with this passage? Or was it a later edition? Because you spoke to Augustus those sorts of things? Dr G 16:07 I wonder if it yes, the kind of thing where it's like Augustus is like, boy, Livy, come here. Dr Rad 16:12 Exactly. Yeah. Let me tell you a thing about a breastplate. Dr G 16:16 Well, Second Edition, you'll you'll need to do some reworking. Dr Rad 16:19 Exactly, exactly. So there's been a debate about that, to be honest, I kind of agree with saying that in that it actually doesn't really matter for what I'm about to say next. This is more about contextualising. This particular event, it would seem that it around the time that Libby is writing this passage, we're talking about, you know, sort of like 27 to 25 BC Oh, a very prime political time for Augustus, isn't it? Just do you want to tell us about a WG? Dr G 16:48 So 27 is the traditional year in which we have the moment where we it's called like the settlement? Yes. And there's this kind of agreement reached that Augustus will get this additional title, this is the moment he becomes Augustus. And the way that the power will be divvied up is kind of resolved after this sort of lengthy tail period after the end of the Civil Wars, where it's not really clear what what Augustus position really is. And they need to sort of firm up something because it's clear that whatever has happened as a consequence of the Civil War, Rome is now different, and its politics functions differently, and they need to figure out how to make that formalise so they can keep going. Yes. And the settlement is partly about that. And so it's a bit of a, an honour gesture to Augustus. But he's also, you know, gotten to this position because he's killed so many of his enemies. So who's left people on his side? Potentially? Yeah, so it's this interesting moment for Rome where it's consciously shifting, and it seems that Augustus is also shaping that shift. Oh, yeah. So he's one who? master manipulator, perhaps, or political strategist, with no enemies left on the floor. So you know, the last chess player remaining, Dr Rad 18:06 don't think they don't be just Dr G 18:08 beaten by a teenager, for those following chess controversies. But well, Costas is the kind of the only one left the clear leader. And he has this moment where they also allow him to choose the name that he's going to take for himself. And they did mention that Romulus for a bit didn't they did and he did, and you know, weigh up the pros and cons with like being Romulus as his like, order rific title and was like, and then decided maybe that was a little bit too on the nose, and decided to want to something that was just his Yes, but there is a sense in which Augustus is super interested in the history of Rome and how he fits into it. So it's not at all surprising that he's also very interested in courses because courses is the next figure in Roman history that has this call back to Romulus. And it's like, somewhere in there, or Gustus, who's going to want to sort of line himself up with all of the significant figures that have Dr Rad 19:04 come before. Yeah, definitely. And that's why he's doing things like restoring temples like it's you know, harkening back because Romulus supposedly is the person who founded this temple. Oh, yes. So you know, it's all these kinds of connections. But if we put it in a bit of context of what specifically was happening just before this, so in 29 BCE, there was a train that was allowed to be held, because I'm gonna say aloud because this is around at this point in time by permitted a minute by markers like Kenya's crisis. No, not the famous one. I mean, like, nothing like the money grubbing crashes. Yeah, but not the one that I think is the most famous one because he was always a reference to Spartacus. But anyway, so this guy, he had been cancelled in the previous year. He was now serving as a pro console. And in that capacity, he ended up fighting people called the bustani Hmm. And during that battle, he killed and stripped the chieftain Dell though. Dr G 20:08 Did you just say the judge didn't do though? Where's Dell though? Wherever still, Dr Rad 20:16 he's the guy wearing the red and white stripes. Yeah, so he defeated this guy. And for this reason not only does he get to try out for there's also granted to him the right to deposit the spoils in the temple of Jupiter Farah tres Dr G 20:32 awkward. I can only imagine Augustus being slightly jealous slash angry about that. Well, this is Dr Rad 20:37 the kind of the context we need to keep in mind. Obviously, he's not actually he's not August as yet. He is, by the time that live, he is writing, but he's just come off having his own trounce, which is obviously very impressive. But it's really essentially no matter how much he tries to spin it or manipulated to appear otherwise a civil war that he has been fighting. Yeah, but he succeeded in the Civil War did but let's face it, Dr G 21:04 that's a triumph. Dr Rad 21:05 I'm not saying it's not a triumph. I'm just saying it's over. Okay. Yes, technically, Cleopatra, but also Mark Antony, Dr G 21:13 it's awkward. That's what it is awkward. Dr Rad 21:14 It's all shades of. Okay, so there's this whole thing going on here that we have to sort of, you know, keep in mind as well. Okay. So that's happening. Then on top of that, if we return to how Levine records this particular issue, isn't even clear. Exactly how live you feels about Augustus in his work. Certainly, I think we've mentioned previously that he's obviously writing and it's very interesting time period, where he's literally writing as Rome is changing dramatically. How much he appreciated it at the time. Exactly. Obviously, he didn't have a crystal ball to know like, where this is all heading. Dr G 21:57 Yeah, but he might be consonant enough to be like we're living in interesting until Dr Rad 22:01 I think that's certainly true. Like, he might not have gone like, well, there's gonna be an empire for the next 500 years, you know, with Emperor's and whatnot. But certainly, I think I think people appreciated how significant Augustus was, it's a bit unclear about exactly where he stands. Now, you could read that passage as being August has told you to do something, and he did it. But Dr G 22:24 he might have just been really impressed. Dr Rad 22:25 But the thing is, it's interesting, given that by the time he's writing this, Augustus is just getting more and more powerful. He doesn't hand over authority unquestioningly, to Augustus his events, he phrases it very carefully. And that's what I think is really interesting. He technically leaves the choice up to the reader, but he doesn't take himself like out of the accounts, he kind of walks you through the fact that Okay, so this is my way of doing things I've looked, you know, I've considered the sources. I've looked at the, you know, the older source material, this is what I've found. These are the issues. However, this is the version that Augustus says, Dr G 23:15 Make of that what you will Dr Rad 23:16 Derrida Yeah, and the way that he phrases it, that idea of it being sacrilege, you know, like this idea of sacrilege like not to report this and to include it. In sailors opinion, this is somewhat connecting this episode to those episodes, which he had talked about previously, like kings going out with goddesses and having a rite of time in the forest, where Livi reports these things. But there's always that notion of look, if you're open to accepting there's like a certain like supernatural aspect or like embellishment going on here. Cool. But I'm just signalling to you that I'm not sure I entirely buy into this. There's clearly an agenda here. And he and he can buy into that agenda. If he sees it as being something like for the public good, or, you know, like, there's a purpose there. But I don't know if he feels that Augustus falls into that category. And so by hinting at the fact that Augustus has version isn't entirely true, he's kind of going I clock you, Augustus. I see what you think. Dr G 24:31 I don't think he said it's not entirely true. He said, I'll leave it up to the reader. That's a very fine distinction. Dr Rad 24:38 I'm just saying this is what say like, this is what Taylor is saying. Okay, he's saying that by hinting at the fact that there's like a certain embellishment potentially going on here Livi is subtly very subtly indicating, I am not part of the rabble, okay, and my readers potentially, like I've opened the door for them to Oh, also not be part of this rabble who are being easily fooled by these stories that you're feeding us to show how powerful you are and promote your version of things and establish that dynamic with us. None of Dr G 25:15 that. Look, I think you might be reading a little bit too far across most of our editor, I'm gonna give Libby props for being a good historian in this moment, because he's doing his due diligence in both reporting the facts as far as he understands them, these like these are the pieces of evidence I've been able to encounter. So these things have been witnessed, and we can say something about them. And he's also doing his due diligence and in reporting the stories that people tell about these things. Absolutely. Because historians are well aware that it's not just what may or may not have happened and what we can absolutely establish, it's also about how people talk about them and how they feel about them. And so, being able to position or Gustus is a piece of storytelling in there is useful, because it allows him to highlight that there are some, you know, Contemporary Perspectives on this situation, which might very well be of interest to you. And also catcher in like, but here's everything else you need to consider. So there is that sense in which it's not, he's not just reporting or Gustus. So I think you're quite right to say that, you know, he's not he's not buying everything hook, line and sinker that Augustus is selling. And he's also encouraging that critical thinking from his readers as well. Yeah, saying like, you know, we're in a situation where we all we all kind of have to listen to this guy. And there's some stories to be told about that. Yeah. But we also shouldn't forget that. That's not the only source of evidence that we could rely upon for our understanding of any particular situation, including this one. And it's a good story. Dr Rad 26:56 I just thought it was interesting perspective from Sailor because he actually goes through this article, like all these different instances. So you can really like if you're interested in seeing learning more about that connection with the supernatural storytelling and livie. And those sorts of things. You can actually go through and look at all these instances from the reigns of Romulus and NUMA and tourists and all those sorts of people from the Regal period. Certainly, though, what I did like about this article, was this idea that it is kind of a bit of a battle of alternatives, in terms of Liddy is the historian in this situation, he's the one that's doing the research, or Gustus is a politician. And at this point in time, essentially, a ruler. It is is interesting, like, well, who you gonna believe sort of thing. Some people have seen this passage as being kind of evidence, I suppose Livi being confused and maybe undermining his own authority, that he can't make sense of this, you know, or whatever. But I have to admit, I do see it more as being a way of dealing with the fact that a source material is problematic, but also be Augustus is now problematic in this situation, so I agree, I don't think it actually makes Libby appear worse historian or someone who we shouldn't trust. Dr G 28:12 No, I think this is actually evidence that he's probably quite a robust historian, and he's doing the best that he can Yes, with the evidence that he's has. And he's also willing to provide that to the reader, definitely. So that they can get a sense of just how complex this situation is. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't make it any more clear about what actually happened. But that's the clarity. That's what good historians often do. Dr Rad 28:36 So that was a fascinating passage, which I couldn't, I couldn't let it pass without delving into the complexities particularly when it's got your favourite room and of all the time. Dr G 28:47 My controversial favourite. Dr Rad 28:50 I love how you are a fan of Augustus and Tom, how you always come off as worse as me who's a fan of Tiberius, who apparently is a paedophile. Dr G 28:59 I mean, it's in the source material. Dr Rad 29:02 We all know it's a lie. Anyway. Alright. So or do we do I think, all right, so that's enough, I think before 37 And the controversy over courses, Dr G 29:12 courses. Yeah, that's maybe that's what we should call this episode. Dr Rad 29:18 This is our episodes. So with that, I think I'm ready now to pause and then move into our 36 species. Dr G 29:46 For 36 BC, it's all happening. Well, I've got some great news and some terrible news. The bad news or the terrible news is Dionysius of Halicarnassus my major source that I've been reading is still missing. And we'll be missing for quite some time. Look, I Dr Rad 30:03 gotta admit it's getting easier every time I hear. Dr G 30:06 I'm so sad. On the plus side. Lots of things happen in 436. And I know about them because I read other sources. Dr Rad 30:12 Excellent. Well, shall we start with you our major streets? Dr G 30:17 We have some consoles this year do we do? Apparently Lucia is purpureus sort of no one grandson of no one rasas who is a patrician? Yes. And will become will have roles in the future as well. Sure. And then we have Marcus Cornelius, son of Marcus grandson of Lucius mag Gulen insists. Dr Rad 30:44 Also patrician. Yeah, big surprise. Yeah, I think we've had that tongue twister name before. Dr G 30:50 Yeah, look, I mean, it feels familiar. But then Latin often does. Dr Rad 30:55 This mean given that we have a bit of his heritage there. I think they think they've crept up before I think Dr G 30:59 the most controversial character in my list for 436 is spirits. Melee is returned from the dead. Dr Rad 31:06 I was really confused. I was like, Am I free reading? Dr G 31:11 Spirits Melee is as far as we know, was murdered publicly. For 39 Dr Rad 31:18 must be relative. Thanks very much naming convention, Dr G 31:21 maybe a relative but I mean, some question marks this spurious may alias apparently. I mean, if not back from the dead, obviously on the family agenda because proposes a bill to confiscate the property of a hauler. Yeah, the assassin in question. And accusing Manoukian is the former prefect of the grain supply of falsely accusing spirits Malea sort of aiming towards kingship? Dr Rad 31:51 Yeah, well, I mean, this is this is all going back to the the controversies that we really spoke about at the time, he was really trying to be serving a stripping of the clamps, presumably, you know, kind of got in there because of the similarity of his name. And he certainly is playing Majan if he's no Dr G 32:07 relation, like not. Dr Rad 32:11 Yeah, he just he knows he's got this popular name. And he believes that just through the power of the name, given that the other speakers Malleus was only murdered a few years ago, that this power is going to allow him to cause all sorts of havoc for Manoukian and a holla. Now a holla. In case we don't remember, pretty sure he's actually selinexor I thought he'd run away. Yeah. But I mean, obviously, yeah, it obviously still like sticks the knife into confiscate the property. Dr G 32:41 Well, yeah. confiscating the property is not necessarily intrinsically connected to exile. Yeah. And a hollow may have just fled for his own safety. So he might not have been formally exiled because often a formal case of being exiled does result in confiscation of property as well. So there's a little there's some confusing things about this story. Dr Rad 33:02 Yeah, definitely. And so even though he's got this very popular name, and seemingly, he's doing things, which I think people would kind of be on board with, because everyone was super into Malleus. In his green at Dr G 33:14 the time, this is true. I imagined he would have the people on site, but he doesn't. Oh, yeah. Levy's sources don't go into that. But Dr Rad 33:22 no, this is a thing. Like, I think he's quite right, in the sense that Sebelius did kill someone who hadn't officially been found guilty of anything. So he's right about that. I mean, nucleus the false accusation? Well, I guess that's a bit he said. He said kind of situation. But anyway, what Livi tells me is that the people really weren't impressed by these charges. They seemingly are not strongly behind him interested in his accusations. bit weird. I do also have a bit of other detail about what's happening externally. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So when we've got our consoles, obviously, the Roman armies apparently invaded the territory of vai and the Phyllis skins who were their allies, lest we forget, captured some booty in the form of people and also animals. And the Romans didn't have any big set piece battles at this point in time, because they didn't really encounter their enemies much. And they didn't end up engaging in like a long siege or anything, because a plague arrived. Oh, yeah. So that's how things kind of play out in my account. Dr G 34:33 They play go in your Dr Rad 34:36 Yeah, so I've got a pestilence breaking out, which I think kind of not only does it detract from the military campaigns that are going on, which is obviously a continuation of the issues that have been going on with the whole feeding a colony controversy, but also, I think, probably distracts a little bit from what this tribune of the plan this is trying to achieve. Yeah, there's Dr G 34:56 nothing to really put a dampener on political change then be like I can't get out of bed and I'm possibly going to die. Dr Rad 35:02 Yeah. And on top of that, as often happens with pestilence, the people are worried and they get even more worried because prodigies start to appear. Oh god. Yeah. Now I like these particular prodigies because they're not like a woman gave birth to a snake with three heads, those kinds of things. It's this guy prodigy where farm buildings are, quote, often thrown down by earthquakes, which I assumed to mean, disappeared into chasms that opened up in the ground, which is something we can totally see happening. Like, I mean, it's in it's believable that that happens. Dr G 35:36 Well, certainly. Yeah. I mean, Italy is on is on a whole bunch of plates, isn't it? That's why it's got a whole volcanic sort of rain. So serious. Hey. Yeah, that's great, should be part and parcel of what's going on. Yeah. So that Dr Rad 35:49 kind of made sense to me. And as a result of these things happening, the Dewan viri in instructed to offer up a supplication to the gods. Now, I believe this Dr G 36:00 is a group of two men. Yeah, I believe with a Jesus, Chris. Dr Rad 36:07 I believe this Dr G 36:07 is a reference. This is what happens, but I don't have Dr Rad 36:12 I think it's the reference to the doin Riri sacral. Can I say this word? Do a very sacral room? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Who are in charge of the civil line books at this point. So they are, I think, basically consulting the civil line books. And this would be where this application that they're offering up to guys would come from? I think this is when Dr G 36:35 they'll find the answer to what kind of supplication they need to make. Yeah, Dr Rad 36:38 these are similar in books as a bit of a refresher, very important set of texts to the Romans, even though when they were originally offered them. The king at the time decided to burn quite. Dr G 36:52 Yes, we've lost six of the nine. Dr Rad 36:54 Yes, exactly. Nonetheless, the Romans always turned to them in times of trouble, because they apparently offer much wisdom. I kind Dr G 37:03 of like the fact that the you know, two thirds of the answers are missing. So there's a whole bunch of things Dr Rad 37:08 there's never able to solve that's why for farmhouse is again to the earth. And that's really all I've got for 430 604 36 Dr G 37:17 Welcome, welcome. Oh, yeah, things. It's mostly to do with the way that a hauler is depicted in source material. Okay, and on the way that this whole situation with the assassination of Malleus ties into broader issues with grand crises throughout human history. And you touched on when I found some more scholars on it, so I'm interested in what they're where they're heading with this kind of Dr Rad 37:42 rain grand afternoon. A holla. Dr G 37:45 Well, first of all, its various alias is suspected and this isn't roundabout for 39 of the effect tomatillo regni. The ambition to rule as King Well, yeah, that's why they killed it. Yeah, that's why they apparently that's that's their bag. Yes. But when this new spurious Malleus comes in distributed with the plebs, yeah, he is accusing Manoukian s and a holla. Not going okay. Sorry, just a holler of being a Kade. Is civis in them naughty and unlawful murderer? Yeah. So going outside of bounds of what is possible. So this idea of reinforcing the fact that maybe a hauler wasn't really mastered the horse, or maybe wasn't really supposed to engage in this level of violence, Dr Rad 38:38 which is interesting, because we talked about the fact that we believe that maybe he was given like this tacit Go ahead, like wink wink from the Senate. Dr G 38:46 Yeah, they thought they maybe they'd get away with it. But he wasn't given an official position. Now, they just asked for a volunteer and a holler was the kind of crazy violent kid who put up his hand was like, oh, already, somebody brought a lighthouse? Yeah. Well, Dr Rad 38:59 I mean, he was trying to be king, I mean, other admins who have Okay, Dr G 39:03 and he does have to leave Rome as a result of this. Yes. But the elite see this as an enduring story of patrician injustice. Because what a holla does is he saved the state, from somebody who was trying to rise up to be a king, Dr Rad 39:21 definitely, I will live live. He definitely drives home this idea of like Liberty being preserved, I call crap. Dr G 39:29 And Libya is not the only one who buys into that kind of version interpretation. Cicero refers to a hollow in a couple of his texts always in a positive fashion, interesting in the sense that he feels that there's been an injustice done, and he does categorise a howler in with a whole bunch of other figures who he also sees as being unjustly treated and having to go into exile in a way that is undeserved. Interesting, so it's like, I've done something controversial Am Dr Rad 40:01 I putting a prediction out there? Okay, I'm waging that some of these people also came up against some up attributions of the clips. Dr G 40:09 You be so right. I see some parallels. Yeah. So Cicero in the day re publica. Yeah, this is book one. Section six for people who are keen puts a hauler in the same category as somebody called Camillus. Who we're going to encounter very soon. I was gonna say, yeah, a guy called Nazca Dr Rad 40:31 wire Dr G 40:32 mending. Well, Linus. Yeah, Optimus. Mattel metallic, and Gaius Marius, another name that people might just recognise. Yes. Camillus is likely to be Marcus furius Camillus. Who we are going to, we're going to, yeah, I'm so furious. Yeah. Coming up soon in a Roman History podcast near you. And so I won't say too much of them because I don't want to ruin the story. Name Zika is possibly a reference to Publius Cornelius skipio name Zika serraglio. Yeah, which I'm sure you know, sounds very familiar to everybody was constantly 138 BCE. So by the time we get there, I'm sure I will forgotten that I've mentioned him at all, but was famously a political opponent of Tiberius Gracchus, Dr Rad 41:24 one of the most troublesome tributing to the plebs to have ever lived, if not the number one. Number one, number two is his brother. Dr G 41:34 And now Zico gets himself into trouble, because he's the one that calls for the salvation of the state sort of protest, leading the opposition against Tiberius Gracchus, which causes a whole commotion where I think it's the infamous roof tile incident where this guy gets gets kicked in the head in in the sort of public violence that erupts and dies. Dr Rad 41:57 Can I just can I just quickly say the reason why that name, which is such a mouthful is so familiar to me. It's because that was the guy that I had to research for my assignment for Tom Hill. So every year Tom Hill at Macquarie University would give his students in his introductory room course a person to go and find like all the source material that you possibly could like everything you could find it was a press Dr G 42:26 broker full a post Republican vocal Dr Rad 42:29 press pacu focal study. And so he was the guy that I had to chase up that Dr G 42:36 this guy he starts the commotion against Iberia is cracking exactly, Dr Rad 42:39 accidentally goo. Yeah. So I will always remember the name of NASA. And he has to Dr G 42:45 go into exile essentially. Yeah. Ultimately, like he leaves to just escape the displeasure of the people. Yeah, this doesn't ruin his career, and maybe sounds familiar as a patriarchal troop overall, you do something bad and you kind of have to leave, but your career keeps going anyway somehow, because he ends up you know, leading legation in Asia, and then dying and Pergamum tough times. Then we have Linus, who is potentially Gaius popularise Linus, who, you know, does some things, gets himself into trouble. He is condemned in Rome for entering into a treaty that allows the army to withdraw. And this is seen as like, just super problematic. They're like, No, you should keep fighting. We're out of here. So anyway, something about that political situation is controversial from a Roman spective and he has to go okay, Cicero sees it as unjust. Right? Or premieres. Lucia subpoenas feel like he's saying he's familiar as well. Yeah, it's bound to be in 121 BCE. He was the console who secured the Sinatra's consortium ultimum against Gaius Gracchus. Ah, okay. That's right. So we haven't encountered scenarios consultant ultimum Optima, I suppose there's a thorough yet in this podcast, because it's a political mechanism that doesn't come into play for a long time. So I'm not going to get into the details of it here. But basically, what this does is it puts a premiers in a similar position, ultimately massacre, because the proceeds much violence, yes, and very violent against Gaius Gracchus, who was effectively outlawed. And this means that he ultimately gets prosecuted later on by opponents and he also has to leave Rome. So a PBS it doesn't work out. Dr Rad 44:42 Despite, anyway, if a guy is cracked as much either, but hey, Dr G 44:46 it doesn't work out for the Iraqi and it doesn't work out for the people who oppose them either. And he also dies in exile. And then we have metallus. There's lots of options. So who this metallus Could be because the Matabele are often getting themselves into trouble and ending up exiled So apologies in advance. This might not be Burma tell us, but we have Quintus, quite Caelius metallus pious skipio right on around 95 BCE. And he is one of the people that delivers anonymous letters to Cicero in 63. That warns of Caroline's assassination plan. So he's considered to be a really significant political figure. Yeah. But he then later on gets embroiled in a whole bunch of bribery, lawsuits. So we this is something that happens in the late Republic a lot. And the crime of bribery is really punished in the law courts and people are using it against each other all the time to try and get rid of their opponents and metallus falls prey to some of that, how true or not it might have been, we might get to but anyway, he ends up in exile. Right. So I mean, the main thread here is people ending up in exile. Gaius Marius, does he end up in exile? But I mean, he's from Cicero's account dealt with unjustly. Dr Rad 46:05 Well, I mean, I guess there's that whole period of Maurices career where he's dealing with some pretty serious political rivals. And they both kind of go through periods where one is on the up and up and the other one falls down and the other one's on the up and up and the other one falls down. We won't go into all the detail. But yeah, he has some, he has some bad times, and some good times. Dr G 46:24 He has a bad times and good times. So Cicero is pretty pro an elite position. So even though he is shocked, he's a novice homo, as it were, a new man in Rome, has really bought into the like the Roman sort of ideology, yes. And unsurprising, perhaps, yeah. And he sees a holler as a classic example, going right back to the early period of somebody who is trying to save the state and is unjustly dealt with. Dr Rad 46:51 So he's gonna have some periods of his life where he feels that he is unjustly dealt with too. Dr G 46:55 And so and this sort of leads into the scholarship around this. And there are really clear connections that you can see that Cicero is already building to the Iraqi, for instance, and the parallels between the green crisis that seems to be happening in the 430s BCE, and the green crisis that's happening in like the 130s BC, and which Dr Rad 47:19 is where the gracchi come into it as tribune of the plebs Dr G 47:22 is India. And so spirits melee says story doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, right. But it takes on even more significance. Yeah, and more sense making is tried to be made of it, as it were, in light of the events, yes, of the late second century. Oh, for sure. And so this means that the way that our sources are dealing with it, and this is kind of, it's a real shame that I don't have Dionysius of Halicarnassus right now, because I would love a Greeks perspective on what's going on with the grain supply. We've got this sense that this story has been reworked and adapted as as needful in order to push home particular political perspectives that are coming from the elite. Dr Rad 48:05 I have no doubt when there's a green crisis involved, I'm pretty sure that it's going to have something to do with the gracchi. Four sources that are written later, which most of our sources are, Dr G 48:18 and it's problematic as well, because of this idea of the emergency dictatorship element of it. Okay. And it's like, the legitimacy of what a hauler has done. Oh, yeah. And potentially, what that means for Rome? Dr Rad 48:32 Well, as you said, really, I think starting in around that time period, with the whole Malleus affair, we really are entering into an age of dictators, where it's just like dictators like crawling out of the woodwork. Dr G 48:46 Yeah, it's gonna get more chaotic. Yeah, it's pretty clear that there's great instability in Rome's political system. Yes. And we have the potential for certain private citizens of the patrician class. Yes, given leeway to engage in casual, open murder. Dr Rad 49:07 Not what you often hear, Dr G 49:08 just out and about. Yeah. And for them to not necessarily be wholly punished for it. It's not like a hauler is ever brought into a law court to answer for this. Yeah, he's allowed to run away and live and the attempt to confiscate his property. We're not sure how that really ends? Dr Rad 49:28 Yeah. Well, this is definitely I think it's because the pestilence really distracts everybody because it seems to be very serious. But I must admit, I do find these episodes of Roman history particularly interesting, much more interesting than I used to, because I often do wonder. We know that no matter what we do about the current environmental crisis, that we are going to have some tough times ahead of us. Even if we manage to avert the level of warming, which would be like a tipping point where we really can't come back. It's just going to get harder. We managed to avert that We've still created enough issues for ourselves with the current level of warming, and also all the other crises that are associated with that, like pollution and overpopulation, all that kind of stuff, that we know that there are gonna be tough times ahead, regardless of what we do, which is why it's really smart to do something about not getting over that tipping point that that's another issue. But one of the things I think that will be an issue is food security. And certainly, for a lot of people in the world, unfortunately, food insecurity is their day to day existence. But for a lot of people in the developed world, I mean, I can safely say, I am privileged enough that I have never gone hungry, not for a single meal in my life, you know. And so I can only imagine the kind of political instability and the kind of political reaction to populations when they're hungry when they're starving. And so it kind of I'm always interested in these sorts of events, because I'm just like, I don't know what our future will hold. As I've often said, on this podcast, we have this illusion of plenty when we go into supermarkets, and we see all this food. But we also have to keep in mind that we're constantly overshooting the resources that this planet can produce for the amount of people that are on it. And that there may be times when we run short of certain things. In fact, I'm only saying maybe because I don't want to sound like a panicky kind of thing. But I would almost wager there definitely will be times. Dr G 51:21 Oh, I think there definitely will be. And I think you're quite right to tie what we're seeing in these histories to what is happening now. And even just as a small example, in Australia recently, because we had so much rain, which was so unseasonal, it did lead to problematic harvest of certain things like this got it sounds ridiculous. Let us in Kevin Yeah. And you couldn't get a cabbage for less than $15 at some point. And you're like, you know what, I don't need to eat cabbage. It's just not. And as long as those sorts of conditions continue to be unstable in terms of like, Australia is known as very dry continent. Yeah. But we have been swamped with rain. Yeah, on the back of and this has been, what three years running have like way, way, way too much rain for what this land can handle? Yeah. Versus what happened previous to that, which was devastating hot bushfires and drought and drought. Yeah. And we're going through this, we're seeing the cycles of becoming more unstable. And Rome is facing similar consequences, I think, but they're living in a more stable climate. Yes. But the instabilities that are inherent in food supply have only been solved very recently in human history. Absolutely. And arguably, not everywhere, and not in a sustainable way at all. Dr Rad 52:46 No. And that's what I think it's important to remember in terms of when we look at these episodes in history, there's a temptation to be like, equate this starving, and therefore fighting amongst themselves. But it actually is something that people who were involved in looking at the implications of climate change and environmental crisis are looking at, because humans actually, we do get more temperamental when we're when we're hungry. There's, there's a lot of truth in that Snickers commercial. And so, yeah, you know, in all seriousness, it is one of those things where, yeah, people, people are more testy. And, obviously, governments responding to these sorts of crises. I mean, it's a tough gig. And I think that also, you know, they tend to make more extreme decisions, because it's a, it's a pressing issue, like, we need food, and we need clean water. And that is why I get so frustrated, when people don't pay attention to the issues that our environment is facing. Because, like we've seen with malleus, one of the things that he does is that when when green is in short supply in his area, he sends out to surrounding areas to try and secure the grain. And that's how they come out of the crisis. But if every part of the world is increasingly going through these crises in our own time, who you're going to call, yeah, like, who you're going to turn to, if we're if we are all increasingly going through this, it just gets more and more expensive and more and more ludicrous, that we're reacting to problems. Rather than trying to be proactive and stop the crises from happening or making them less severe. It's just insane. And I know there are a lot of people out there who are doing amazing things and props to you. But I just thought I have to have this issue because as you say, living in a country that we do, where we're obviously going to be vulnerable to these sorts of extremes. The more that they become, you know, pulls put more and more poles apart. Just something that it's good to pay attention to. I think, Dr G 54:45 Man On that note, I think I think we're done. Dr Rad 54:48 I think we're done into the rap. terrible problems. All right. So Dr. G, that means if we're wrapping up this episode, it is time for another partial pay So this is the part of the podcast where we see how room has travelled in the last couple of years of Well, I suppose you're in a bit and we write them out of five categories in each category. There are 10 Golden Eagles up for grabs that makes for a total of 50 Dr G 55:24 Hmm All right, our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 55:30 Well, okay, there is some mention of the Romans you know, when in some stuff some bootay getting that tasty goat meat I guess or maybe sheep. Dr G 55:41 Well, we're how much weight are we giving to the things that in 437-436-0436 Dr Rad 55:47 Okay, all right, so Dr G 55:51 we're measuring for 36 Yeah, okay. Dr Rad 55:53 Oh, yeah. For 37 It's just like that recap controversy stuff we can leave that Dr G 55:58 okay, military cloud Yeah, look, I've got nothing for that so well, whatever score you provide it is the one I will accept Dr Rad 56:06 it's very minimal detail there's no big conflict with the enemy it's literally just like rating there running across the border. They're taking some stuff sounds Dr G 56:15 like a one Dr Rad 56:18 I think it's gonna be a little bit more than that. I would maybe say like a four or five maybe Wow, that's well I mean, I think we're in like maybe four look, they got some slaves and they got some flocks. We might not morally agree with slavery, but for them that's a winner. Dr G 56:36 No stealing of sheep for it is alright, diplomacy. Dr Rad 56:42 No. Dr G 56:45 I see. And now understand how you want to live this stuff? Yeah. Expansion. Dr Rad 56:50 I think they're more just Dr G 56:52 just going across as they're taking some stuff. Oh, we're to us. Dr Rad 56:56 Not really. No. Yeah. Well, I Dr G 57:00 suppose Well, our second spirit is Melee is trying to do the good word for his relative potentially or himself if He's indeed come back from the dead. Dr Rad 57:11 He's giving it a good crack, but I don't think what you could call he's very half hearted to open Dr G 57:15 up. I don't know that. It's half hearted. Dr Rad 57:18 Basically, well received. To pass a law. I don't know if you can class that as weird to us. No. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'll give him snaps. That's about it. Dr G 57:31 All right. Nowhere to us. And the citizens score. It's a plague isn't it? Yeah. I mean, they do get the extra sheet before the slave Dr Rad 57:43 slaves on the market and some goats or something. I just say flocks. I'm presuming because but yeah, so it was Dr G 57:49 just good. Well, yeah, I Dr Rad 57:51 think it's typical that region, but anyway, we got a little bit of meat and slavery coming their way before before sickness, a serious one, like serious enough for them to turn to the civil handbook. So like, This is bad. A one I think. I think one because who wins with slavery? No one No one, which means that Dr. G, our total which I can count on all right, and is five Golden Eagles for berm. how the mighty have fallen, because last episode, it was actually a pretty decent score. Dr G 58:23 Yeah, well, they did amazing things on the battlefield last time. Yeah. Oh, five. Certainly is and one which in terms of points where it was currently losing? Dr Rad 58:35 Yeah, absolutely. So on that rather depressing nose. I will bid you adieu, Dr. G. Fair. You Well, yeah. But we'll promise more exciting things to come. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. We'd like to give a special shout out today some of our latest Patreon, as well, Lydia, Amanda and D'Andrea, you too can support our show and help us to produce more fascinating content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. And now you get to see us in some of our recording sessions. There are other ways that you can support our show. We have a cofee account, or you can just spread the word by buying and wearing some of our merchandise or support our collaboration with the talented Bridget Clark, who has been helping us to produce some artwork on Gumroad. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai