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3 How to Create A Successful Podcast Strategy with Anna Howard · The Rave Social Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Rave Social Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Jaden, and today we have our guest Anna on here.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: She is incredible.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: She's a podcast manager and uh you do social media management too, right?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do help with social media.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I would fully say that I'm dabby enough to be a full-on social media manager, but I do.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love that.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so she's more you're more of like a podcast manager, and you're also great at social media.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Your content is incredible.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I follow you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everything you share is so valuable.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm just obsessed.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: So we're excited to have Anna here.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: She knows a lot about podcasting and all sorts of other things.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna dive in.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but one thing that we talked about was that having a podcast for entrepreneurs is kind of like a playground.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I feel like a lot of business owners get into this rut with social media and that kind of thing because it's based on an algorithm.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, of course, every time you go to Instagram or TikTok or anywhere like that, there's so many tips on how to hack the algorithm, how to do this and that, like niche down to a degree where you're like only talking about this one thing.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that is very valuable advice.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I have found that it is necessary for me, especially like all business owners can take that advice and run with it.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that when it comes to podcasting, if you try to, like, yes, you need to niche down to a certain degree, that kind of thing.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: But if you try to approach podcasting just with like, I want to look like the expert and whatever, podcasting can help you look like more of an expert and build trust and that kind of thing.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I try to tell all my clients, like, we need to be approaching it as a container for our curiosity above all else, like a sandbox.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't do that, what's gonna happen and what inevitably happens to like every podcaster I've ever met, whether they've been working with me or not, is that you reach a point a couple of months in and you're like, it's a creative rut that is really hard to get out of if you're trying to just like give advice.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because at some point your audience is like, I need a little bit more than advice from you.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like you're a whole human being.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that is more than just like giving the tips and tricks and the advice and saying, you know, you should do this because that's great.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: People do tune into podcasts to learn something, but they also turn in tune into podcasts because they really enjoy the host's personality.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So if you approach it like a playground, like a sandbox, that's when your personality can really start to shine.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't have to hack an algorithm, which I think is just so freeing, especially for business owners that are doing it for some sort of profit.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just doing it like as a hobby, it can still be like a free platform to explore with, which is really exciting.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I've even noticed that I've recorded a couple episodes now, and I've just noticed like I have a plan for it, but when I kind of let myself like play a little more and like dive into this topic or that topic, even though my main point was not maybe one of those things, that's when like my personality comes out, and when I start like feeling good and get in more of like a flow state with the recording too.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you just are you're spot on with it because I love to listen to podcasts.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I started one.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like I personally like to consume content that way.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the podcasts I like, I just like the host.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to follow that host on Instagram and I want to like buy their merch.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like in their little podcast cult, you know, because I like them as a person.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the information they're sharing is either valuable or entertaining or whatever it is, but I like them and I feel like we're friends, and I feel like their community is like they're my friends too.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a huge thing, like getting your community to feel like friends.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because as soon as you start to get your community to talk to each other, they start to do the heavy lifting for you when it comes to promo and all of that good stuff because you're not working in a vacuum, you know.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Word of mouth is such a huge thing with podcasts.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can get your community talking to each other and feeling like they're kind of like not in a cult, but a little bit in a cult, you know, like exactly like there's like a little flavor of that, you know, where it's like we stand with this person, we like we buy their merch, we buy their offers because like we love them and um yeah.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we don't have to do any of that funny business, right?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not actually drink the Kool-Aid, but a huge part of that is just like the inside jokes that you share with each other, you know, and I find that on social media things can get lost in the sauce so much that I mean, like they always say, like, I don't know what the actual statistic is, but it's like 20% of your audience sees your posts, or maybe even less than that.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um which is freeing in a lot of ways, because then it's like, okay, just be repetitive, like keep posting, keep posting, don't worry about it too much.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: But with podcasting, it's like, okay, these people, I know that not everybody is gonna be a repeat listener, but I do know once you're a couple weeks into it, you know, okay, I have this base of base listenership.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're listening to this podcast episode before I've even announced it on social media.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're just they're here for this.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we can start to have our own like shared language together, and then they start to repeat that shared language with each other.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that just makes it so much easier to create a personal brand that lasts in the long run.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it feels so flexible too.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like it feels so intimate and flexible.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like once people know you, if your business, if you decide to pivot or go into a new niche or something, it's like I feel like it's a lot easier to take those people with you because they already care about you and to like whatever product or service or whatever you're doing, they're kind of like on board for it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so would you say, like, when somebody, if somebody's starting a new podcast, or maybe they just want to like refresh theirs or make theirs better, do you say, would you give the advice of like talk to that smallest audience, or who would you tell them to talk to?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would say um talk to like you should listen to the podcasts that you like and tune into that energy of like your audience knows that you're not just talking to one person, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: But getting like an abstract idea beyond just like, okay, they're in their 20s to 30s, they're whatever.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But like actually, what kind of other concept content are they consuming in this day?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: How does this pair with the rest of their day?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Having a really good idea of that will help you.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a podcast that you're like, okay, I know that this, I want it to be like a very short, like this is gonna be for moms that have no time in the day to consume content.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So they are listening to this while they're getting ready in the morning and they literally only have five minutes.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: That is really valuable information to know as you're constructing the podcast, keeping your audience in mind and taking care of your audience.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, if you are like a mommy blogger or something, or like a consultant for parents, and then you put out an hour-long podcast, it's kind of like, are you taking into consideration who these people are?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like they don't have time.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, for exactly, you know?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that is like such a brilliant piece of advice.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we even miss that, like in social media too, is that we oftentimes want to be like, talk to your target audience, they're 20, they live in this area, whatever.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, but like who are they really?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: What do they have time for?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: What content did they like to consume?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Where are they spending their like if you get that?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: If you can peel back those layers.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that that question was something that honestly opened a lot of it opened my eyes in a way of like, okay, beyond the getting hyper specific about who my target audience is in a technical way, what else are they watching in a day?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: What else are they listening to in a day?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because that will like inform how they're relating to me.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So like, are they listening to this podcast as they commute to and from work?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it like something that's more for entertainment?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's on in the background while they're working, they're a full-time job.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like that will all make you decide how your podcast is.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking about Joe Rogan for some reason, because I think my boyfriend likes him.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: And he will just listen to Joe Rogan while he works.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's an engineer.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's like, I will just put it on and like do my work.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Yeah, that's so smart.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it it'll just, it's very different from podcaster to podcaster how they want their audience to engage in it.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I also think of like we were talking about Cass before this call, Cass Class, if you're on Instagram.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um she started a podcast and then made it into a membership.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So she kind of like teased it out with her out with her audience, gave people an idea of what it was.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then she was like, I want this to be a really intentional thing.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want this to be something that people listen to in the background.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to invest in it and actually intentionally sit down and absorb the material because it is very like based in her business and deepening what she is teaching the people within her business.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's not gonna be the case with everyone.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Not even every business owner is gonna want that.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of business owners are gonna be like, okay, this podcast, I want it to be something that the busy entrepreneur is listening to while they're cleaning and it's on in the background because I want my voice to be on in the background, because that is a part of how you get deeply ingrained in somebody's life and build trust with them.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just there's so many different ways to use your podcast, but knowing how you want your audience to engage with it is really important.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so as far as it being a playground, we kind of touched on that.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what would you say as far as like with a podcast?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I guess you don't really need to niche as what you're saying, but how how crazy can you get?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can you have a podcast where you talk about like, I don't know, wellness and also talk about like marketing strategy, or what do you think?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so this kind of gets into podcasting works very differently for people if they're going to use it as a hobby versus if they want it to make them money.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of think of it as we've got three different camps here.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: We've got people that just want to use it as a hobby, are not concerned with making money from it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: In that case, literally do whatever you want.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I want you to have fun with this, do whatever you want.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you do want to make want it to make you money, then there are two ways of going about that.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is brand sponsorships, of course.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's way more than two ways, actually, but the two that I'm gonna focus on are these brand sponsorships.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And in that case, you're gonna have to grow your audience to be huge.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna either already be an influencer or be focused on becoming an influencer, basically, because you want you're gonna have to grow your audience to that scale in order to make like really good money from your podcast.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: In that case, you don't have to niche down in a way where it's like you're literally only talking about one thing over and over again, but you do have to have a vibe, you have to have a brand that you are building there.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got business owners that are trying to drive traffic to their business through their podcast.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And in that case, I would say it does need to be pretty focused on your business in some way.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't need to be like every episode is an ad for your business, but you do need to like strategically build a content strategy that is helping to build that trust and is educating your audience on why they would interact with you, you know, that kind of thing.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how you're gonna like you're gonna have a whole library, basically, that people might find you on Instagram and then see that you have this high-ticket offer and then be like, hmm, interesting.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know much about this girl though.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: See that you have a podcast, and they're not gonna invest in a$10,000 offer until they've listened to every single podcast episode.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, depending on the buyer and the buyer type and whatever.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: But like a lot of people, if it's gonna be a huge investment, they're like, okay, let me do my due diligence and like look into this person.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so of course there are other ways, there's like affiliate marketing, all of that stuff.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: But as far as how far you need to niche down, it really does depend, I think, on like how much are you relying on this podcast to like make you money?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you just want to do it for fun, literally talk about whatever.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you do want it to make you money, I think there's still wiggle room and there's still room to be playful with it and show your personality and like have your tangents, you know.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um always come back home to this is why I have this podcast right now, and I have this podcast because I am this is a funnel, you know.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it really kind of it just depends on like your goals.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um oh my gosh, I love that so much.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: It does feel very playful.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like my favorite podcasts to listen to are playful.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely feel like the podcasts I listen I generally consume are like more specific.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: They seem to be more niche, like now that I'm thinking about it.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: But um, that's just so interesting.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, another question for you.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: For people who are starting a podcast, do you feel like anyone can start a podcast?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you more like you kind of need to have like a certain personality or you need to know how to talk to people?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you think?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just for anybody or I think if you want to start a podcast, you can start a podcast.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Now, do I think that podcast is podcasting is the right thing for everybody and like everybody would be good at podcasting?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just podcasting is very much like you need to be comfortable speaking, you need to have an interest in something that like really takes you through for an entire season of podcasting, which I think people can underestimate how much interest you need to have in something in order to devote yourself, you know.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I hate the word consistency, but it is like I like to think of it as devotion.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you do actually have to be devoted to something in order to do it.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do think a lot of people will listen to their favorite podcast and kind of think, well, because I love to listen to this podcast, I would love to host a podcast.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like it really becomes a whole different bod ballgame when you are hosting it.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just like there's so many moving parts.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is time consuming.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's why people hire me because it is a time-consuming, arduous process.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's not for everybody.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's literally not for everyone.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I luckily like you, I've I manage a couple different podcasts for some of my clients, and so like I really saw the work, the level of work, and the level of it takes time.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: It really, you can't just wing it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which some people some podcasts make you feel like you can just take your mic with you wherever you go and it's no big deal.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I disagree with that just because of my experience that I've seen.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, you really do need that dedication and consistency is a touchy subject, but it's like, I mean, don't expect to put out four episodes and then piece out and then expect that your audience is gonna be there when you come back in a month or two.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're building a brand, you're building something you need to be, like you said, devoted to it and actually ready to move forward.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's no joke.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're just like taking your microphone with you and like pulling it out whenever you want, it's like, okay, to be honest, anybody could record their shower thoughts.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Does that mean that you're going to build a community off of that that is going to be devoted to you?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, you have to show them some devotion in return.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that, you know, I've seen podcasting used in every different way that it can be used.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's people that are actually just taking voice notes and posting them.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to do that, that's fine.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, no harm done if you want to try that out and see how it goes.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go ahead and venture to guess that you're not going to build a huge following or community based on doing that.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to do that to like process your thoughts, go ahead.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I would argue that you could keep that in the voice, the voice notes folder, though.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how much are you really serving people by just kind of pulling it out of nowhere and not really caring for your audience in the process?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've found that for me, like I will make a voice note or I'll make a note in my phone when I'm having a thought where I'm like, I think this would be a good podcast episode.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'll make that note and then I will use it for an outline for what I'm actually going to record after I've really thought it through.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because also something that I've noticed, this is totally a side note, but it's like when you're when you don't have a guest on the other end, it can get very dry, or you can be like, I thought this thought was going to take me five minutes to get through, but it really took me two minutes.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so now I'm like, oh my God, like, do I need to think of something else to say?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think about all the time, especially with solo podcast episodes.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: People assume that solo episodes are gonna be easier than guesting episodes.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: The only thing that's easier about it is like the scheduling.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Other than that, way harder because you need to really think out your thought process and outline it so that I think of it as like we do an outline of an episode because it leaves room, like that's gonna be the skeleton of your episode.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: You need that skeleton.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you are gonna immediately, literally immediately, go off the rails.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you need that skeleton because it leaves room for tangents, you know.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you say something and in that moment it reminds you of something else, say that something else, but then you can come back to the outline to stay on track.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: What I don't like, like tangents, fine, love tangents.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: What I don't like is talking in circles.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what happens when people take a thought that they thought was gonna be five minutes long and it's two minutes, they start to literally say the same thing over and over and over again.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you're losing your audience.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're gone.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: They're gone after the second time, you know.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: They heard you say the same thing and they were like, oh, I'm going back to my favorite podcast now because I don't have the patience for this.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, for real.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I will do that.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, ugh, skip through.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're like two times speed, like, gotta go.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, next question for you.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: You were also talking about storytelling, which I know you're an excellent storyteller because of your content on social media and like everything you post.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yes, it's so good.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how do you encourage your clients to tell good stories during their podcast?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I have literally had it happen where a client will record and they'll ask me for feedback and I'll tell them, look, I think that the advice that you gave in this episode was great.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that your community is gonna stick around long enough to hear it because you didn't give them any story to latch on to to make them stay.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then they'll re record or not even re record the whole episode, but record a story for me.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the times I'll go through and be like, This right here, this adjective that you use to say, like, and I used to be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So tired every morning, okay.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a story.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Why and what changed?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's getting them to see like you can take that moment that you said that adjective and then skipped right over it and get detailed about it, you know, like why were you waking up tired every morning?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is that little fine detail there?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's there's an analogy.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I can't really just take it out of the top of my head, but it's like we don't we don't talk about the apple orchard, we talk about one apple, you know?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like you do not have to.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think people get really tripped up on this idea that they need to take care of every member of their audience by making what they're saying as universal as possible.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they'll start saying, or maybe you're like this, or maybe you're like that, or maybe you're like that.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you need to get singular with it.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Tell one story, get really detailed with that one story.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, maybe your whole audience doesn't know what it's like to go through that very specific thing that you went through, but they're gonna find pieces of themselves in it.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do that work for them.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can trust that that story is enough.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and as far as getting them better at storytelling, it's really it's a matter of practice and time because it's a skill just like anything else.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's a skill that has been kind of conditioned out of a lot of us because we think that telling our story is like selfish in some way, or like who would want to hear this?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I hate that about us.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I it's just especially I feel like in the online space, a lot of coaches think that they just need to be like the expert all the time, you know?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's oh, that's so real.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like that's the biggest struggle on social media right now is that people think they have to be perfect, and it's like your imperfection is what makes people like you.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's what makes you relatable.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can be an expert and also not know everything at all at once.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like you might know everything about podcasting, but you might not know everything about social media.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't have to know everything and don't act like you do because again, that's where people, that's where you relate with people and you invite people in.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm also learning.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm really good at this one thing, and I'm also learning about these other things.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm evolving too.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's podcasting can be hard for some people that are perfectionists because there's a log of all of the progression.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't start podcasting as like a perfect, amazing podcaster, nobody does.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be a year later, you're gonna look back at the first episode and be like, ooh, that was rough.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I was doing.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that's so satisfying to be able to look back on that.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, a hundred percent.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes me think of another question.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, if someone starts a podcast and maybe like they're not taking off as good as they thought, whatever it is, not enough listens, whatever.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's your advice to them as far as like changing their strategy versus just sticking with it?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, how much are they like leaning on their social following and expecting those people to automatically be podcast listeners?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that a lot of people will come into podcasting and think, okay, I've got this audience that feels sizable to me.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: They're all gonna come over and listen to my podcast, and that's just not the case.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of people out there that won't listen to podcasts, they just that's not their thing, you know.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: My best friend in the world really supports everything I do.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't listen to any podcasts ever, and she probably never will, just because that's not her thing.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so a social strategy is obviously very important, but I think that a lot of beginner podcasters really overlook other marketing strategies that are really important.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you go and you do what we're doing right now and you guest on other podcasts, you are getting right to the heart of an audience.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're getting to the people that are already listening to podcasts.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're guesting on podcasts that are in the same or they have an adjacent niche to yours, then you're right there.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, if you make an impression on those people, they'll come over.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I that's probably the first thing that a lot of people need to hear.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because especially at the beginning, they they don't even take that into account and they don't start to guest on podcasts until they're like a year into podcasting, and then they always wish they would have done it sooner because it does grow your audience.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't grow your audience overnight.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that that can be so frustrating for people who have grown overnight on social media or have experienced what it means to like go viral on TikTok or whatever, you know, that feeling of satisfaction, especially if you're like working with a podcast manager or something like that, kind of feels like if I'm paying for help, then it should blow up immediately.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, with podcasting, it is just like you're not working off of an algorithm.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be no, it's gonna be like a steady, slow growth thing, but you can make it faster by being intentional about what you're doing instead of just trying to like beat a dead horse by doing the same thing.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you also have to try out a strategy for long enough to see if it's actually working, because some people will try a strategy for one week and then be like, it's not working perfectly.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have to try something else, you know.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like we can just shout this from the rooftops about like anything that has to do with your marketing.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like chances are you're not gonna be an overnight success because those are very rare.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And also, would you be ready to be an overnight success?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Would you actually want that?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you were an overnight success right after you launched, that might fill you with all sorts of imposter syndrome and like, oh my gosh, I'm not at the point where I want this audience yet or can take care of this audience yet.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it is kind of like, okay, how do we allow ourselves to really grow this skill and be intentional about growing the audience, but also not making growing the audience like something that needs to happen immediately.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so important.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like in any part of business, I know I'm not talking about podcasting right now, but like in anything that you do, that slow and steady growth is so undervalued.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like people just don't want they don't want the slow and steady, but it's like that is where the freaking juicy, really good communities are built.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's where you can scale your business intentionally with a strategy where you don't burn out, or like I don't know.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have seen like TikTokers blow up overnight, um, especially during 2020.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all experienced random people that we followed, and then now they're like freaking so huge.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: And what you see is that they're faced with a lot of controversy, and people start to really hate them and start to really not like them.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And are you ready for that?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: If that's what you want, are you ready?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because people are gonna come for you when you start getting bigger.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I've seen it happen where like, yes, randomly one episode will blow up, and we have to kind of dig to see why did it blow up like that out of nowhere?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: That was weird, that and usually it has something to do with like SEO or they they were on a different podcast, whatever it was.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of the times when there's a huge spike in listenership out of nowhere, it doesn't matter in the next week because okay, some of those people are gonna be repeat listeners, but not all of them.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, yeah, a lot of them just randomly stumbled upon this episode, clicked on it, listened to five seconds, and were like, bye.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: So metrics, I mean, there are vanity metrics in podcasting in the same way as there are in social media for sure.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I bet.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: And also, so that made me think of a question.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: When you what what should people include in every episode to help retain the most amount of listeners?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Say they do have an episode with someone that pops off.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe in that episode they didn't have a call to action, they didn't really have anything, and so nobody saved there, like nobody subscribed, nobody followed them on Spotify, whatever.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so they basically like kind of lose those extra people because there was no buy-in.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh a mistake that I see some podcasters make is that they wait until the very end to have a call to action.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is, especially those new listeners that are there out of nowhere, they're not making it to the end.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Even the listeners that are there every single week, once they start to hear that outro, they know that all it's gonna be is like, thank you so much for listening, follow us, blah, blah, blah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, especially if they are people that listen to podcasts a lot, they know that that's the name of the game.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're out the door by the end, unless they're specifically waiting for something at the end.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I always encourage my clients to put a call to action at the beginning of the episode.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: So whatever that might be for them, um aside from like follow us on Spotify, leave us a review, that kind of thing, which yes, you should definitely say that.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes to those episodes that really pop off out of nowhere, a great way to get them to stick around is to say, join our group, you know.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that goes back to getting your community to talk to each other, whether it's a Geneva group chat or like a private Instagram, like close friends group or a Facebook group, whatever it is, something that they can connect with each other that will help to remind them beyond just seeing it on their Spotify the next week if there's a new episode out, it'll help to remind them, oh, there's this is this thing that these people are talking about whenever the next episode comes out.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, that sounds like an interesting topic, sure.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I I love that.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That makes perfect sense.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and like I have listened to so many podcasts where like the end, I can just feel the end coming, and I'm like, uh, I've heard this about a million times alright.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's nothing against the host.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're just like, I know what they're gonna say.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Goodbye.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: On to the next podcast.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Back to storytelling a little bit on that.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is are there other ways to incorporate storytelling that's not just telling a story?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I feel like people think storytelling is just like, I went to the store, I bought this, I came home.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a story.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: But like, what are other storytelling elements and are there specific questions or things to ask to pull that out?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually think that when it comes to having a conversation like with a guest or something like that, it doesn't always have to be like, tell me about your most embarrassing moment or something to like pull out a story.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's there was an article that I read a couple of weeks ago that I actually think pertains to this so much.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the fact that there are two types of people in conversation.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: One of them are the types of people that think that it's all about asking questions.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And if that person, if the other person's not asking you any questions, they must not be interested in having a conversation with you at all.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other one is all about um, what do they call it, initiations or something like that, and or associations.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that is just when a person will make a statement and they see that as an invitation to have a conversation.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a conversation flows really well if you've got two people that are questioners, so they're going back and forth with questions, or if you've got two people that are like association people, they're just saying statements.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: But if you've got a question person and an association person, then what happens is the conversation is not flowing as well.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that for a lot of people who are more question people, like they see it as the very like welcoming kind thing to do to just ask questions.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the times what you're doing by doing that is erasing yourself from the conversation and making it sort of an interview, you know, which obviously podcast interviews are podcast interviews, but making it like you're no longer there's you're not seeing the invitation to tell the story.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you're just kind of like, okay, where can I what does it mean to tell a story right now?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like how do I and how do I get them to do it?
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, so um I think that a really helpful thing for podcast hosts to do is to see what it feels like to have a conversation where you are training yourself to notice when this person that you're talking to is saying something that you associate with something else.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you either associate it with something else or you have a strong opinion about it.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: And getting used to saying those strong opinions and saying those associations out loud as they come, and not seeing that as like a selfish taking of attention in a way, but seeing it as like, this is an invitation, me telling you that that thing that you just said reminded me of that time that this thing happened to me is an invitation for them to then in response tell you a story about how that thing happened to them.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't have to just be question, answer, question, answer, but it's like, oh, that when you told me that, that reminded me of high school musical.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And in high school, I was obsessed with high school musical, and I used to lip sync gotta go my own way in front of the mirror.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Might have nothing to do with the conversation you're having, but it opens up an opportunity for both of your personalities to come through.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, that is so smart.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I know you okay, the other day you posted something, you were like, why?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: At least I'm pretty much certain this was you.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think you said we need to start taking more ad like more ideas from like our favorite news sources.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is that you said that, right?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, so yes.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: I talk a lot about how the way that TV shows function can help us a lot to figure out how to run our own podcasts.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's two different things that I say about like TV shows and the news and that kind of thing.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: One of them is that, like, promotion-wise, the way that TV shows run, podcast hosts could learn so much from them.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And another thing is like the long-form content that we consume, I think we need to because there's so much time and energy and attention given to short form content now, and that's just like a part of our lives.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, where the real inspiration for me and my clients and the people that I've seen like really grow success on their podcast is allowing themselves to draw inspiration from long form things, whether that's a TV show, a movie, an article, um, an essay.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: When I read an essay, I mean, after I've read an essay, I'm like, oh my gosh, I have so much to say about this.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I think that a thought that comes to my mind that also comes to a lot of other people's mind is like, okay, well, I read that essay and I have thoughts about it, but it's not my own original thought.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I can't talk about it, you know, like as if I have to like completely construct this entire framework and whatever, and then share it with people in order to like give people a valuable thought.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like what I just said about the conversations with the questions and the associations and whatever.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: That was I read an essay that said that.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't come up with that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that it's giving us the um grace to be like, I don't have to, I don't have to create the world.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I can Oh my God.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can like very consciously and intentionally consume in a way that's not just like gobbling up material and then immediately forgetting it.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can consciously consume and then form my own opinions with it and my own associations and be like, this is relevant to my life in this way.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'll share how what I'm thinking and feeling about that thing.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of goes back to the playground of podcasting is like, yeah, can you allow yourself to go down a rabbit hole with your audience and not constantly be like, I'm an expert in this thing, so I will only talk about this thing that I am an expert in, you know?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like what questions are you asking yourself?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: Also, like how boring.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, eventually I'm like, I've learned everything there is to learn about like whatever topic it is.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's not exactly true.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you can always still learn new things, but it's like, yeah, you're an expert, but how many times are you gonna reiterate like the same strategy that you've taught people?
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're not gonna be.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: People don't listen to podcasts to be lectured by like, we're not going to college and sitting down in a lecture hall.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we're going on a walk.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like we're friends, like yeah, we're having a chat.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're not being lectured and also you're not being quizzed.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: One other thing I was gonna ask you about is so like when people are promoting their podcast on Instagram, one thing that like I that kills me inside is just like a weekly link to like listen to it.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't know, like there's nothing, there's nothing compelling me to go listen to it.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And your title could be like 10 out of 10 killer, and I'm still like, I don't know.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do like to see is snippets.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly I always watch those, but I know like some for some people that doesn't work very well.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, I'm always like, oh, like that really got me interested.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: I wanna like like the Huberman Labs ones.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always like, yep, I'm gonna listen to that.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but maybe that's just me.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that when it comes to promoting on social media, the snippet, like the clips and that kind of thing, are gonna work on the people that like podcasts, but the people that don't like podcasts, as soon as they see the two people in the squares and then talking about it, they're like, they know it's a podcast clip, and they're like, I'm not gonna listen to that podcast.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some ways that you can kind of like still do the clips, and I think you should do a mix of all of these things, but there are some ways where you can still do the clips and have like B-roll or something like that to kind of trick the people in your audience that are not podcast listeners to still engage with it.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as far as like the overall promotion goes, I think there are way too many podcasters that are thinking way too much about like having it be this really pretty branding and putting out this new episode post, and then they work so hard on making this beautiful graphic that they put out one post about it, and the people that are not listeners already don't care at all.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care that you have a new podcast episode if I've never listened to your podcast before.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to get me to care that you have a podcast episode about.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you do that?
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: You in the same way that you can like sell on stories in a really casual way.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're selling the idea of your podcast to these people because it's a commitment for them to tune in to a 30-minute to an hour-long episode of a podcast.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you sell the podcast to them?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: You have to like fully bring them into the world of why you're putting this podcast episode out there, what kind of questions you are asking, why you're excited about it being out there, and what they can get from it.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: And posting the title and like a headshot of the guest is not doing that.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not to say that you shouldn't post that, because these posts all have different um goals.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And posting like the new episode with the title and the headshot and whatever is necessary for the people that are already listeners because it will remind them to go listen.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um But it can't be your entire strategy, and it is a lot of people's entire strategy, and then they're like, Why isn't my podcast growing?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Yeah.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: That makes perfect sense.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, it's just the same way you would draw someone into your offer.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're gonna drip little pieces of content to different parts of your audience to get them to convert in other ways too.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the same with the podcast.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of people have podcasts, but their podcast is not their business.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: Their podcast is support, a supporting element, like we talked about before.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um whether like they're trying to sell or whatever, it's a supporting element of their business.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Those people, they already have other content they need to share throughout the week.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do you suggest balancing that?
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: So there are, if you have a podcast that is literally an entirely separate brand, that's when I would say, make an entirely new Instagram page, build that up, or TikTok page, whatever it is, make it a separate thing.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I created a hobby podcast right now that literally had nothing to do with podcasting, I would make that a separate page.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then I would probably share some of the posts to my page when I felt like it was necessary or relevant.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you have a podcast that is pretty interlinked with your business, but it's not literally all about your business, that's okay.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can still waterfall that content out.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say using your stories on Instagram is a great way to do that.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to be posting on the grid every single time that you want to post about the podcast.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: It can be a really great thing to repurpose that material.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it'll just cut down on so much time for you if there are parts of that podcast that are relevant to your business.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um but if you get to a week where it's like not so much of this is relevant, and I have a lot that I need to post on the grid to promote this other thing in my business, that's fine.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: No pressure.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you post what you need to post on the grid.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: You've always got your stories there.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when I talk about using your stories, it's like in the same way that people say sell every day on your stories, drop a link to an episode every day on your stories.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not it doesn't have to be the link from that week, but you know, if you had a conversation with somebody that like sparked a memory about an episode that you did six months ago, post the link to that episode that you did six months ago.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's not dead.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can still drive traffic over there.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's just a really easy way to, you know, there's so many times that people post a clip from an episode.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a big big podcast listener.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's like somebody that I care about and I want to listen to their podcast, I'll make a mental note of, oh, that looks interesting, and then forget about it literally two seconds after I log off of Instagram.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's when coming onto stories and dropping those links and just reminding people that it is up there is important.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care if you get two link clicks.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's two listeners.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: And two listeners can become way more if they start to become oh, if they start to become loyal listeners that start to share their so the show themselves.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, never underestimate the freaking value of a who cares if your link gets two clicks.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: If they're buying from you or if they're moving down the funnel, like it's all good.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: We love that.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that made me think too when you're telling that story.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I see I I find most of my podcasts on TikTok for some reason.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Must be my algorithm.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok is huge for like podcasts.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have to see two or three clips of the same episode before I'll go listen to it.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll see the first one and be interested.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: The second one, I'm like, okay.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: The third one, I'm like, okay, I need to go like add that to my cue on Spotify right now so I don't forget to listen to it.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, yeah, it takes me more than just one little in order to convert.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and on TikTok too, it's like you can post those the clips like really polished and nice, but it's nice on TikTok because you can also just come on it there and be like, oh my gosh, I love this conversation that I just had, blah, blah, blah.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that honestly sometimes gets more engagement.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like my favorite podcast of all time, the way that I found them was through TikTok.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was one of the hosts posted, like positioning the podcast.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: And she said something like, If you wish Call Her Daddy was a little bit more intellectual, then you should listen to this podcast.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, that is brilliant because that immediately tells people like this is the gap that we're filling in the podcast industry.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: Come check it out.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, I mean, that goes such a long way to just tell people if you're interested in this, but you wish it was a little bit more like this, here you go.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I say I love that about one million times.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone take a shot.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I say I love that, everyone take a shot.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Stop what you're doing.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no, but that is so good and it's just true.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing I love about TikTok, especially especially with podcasts, is like TikTok, the volume of content is so high.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, sure, post 30 snippets of that episode.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like nobody's gonna see all of them.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, nobody's gonna see all the snippets.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, just keep trying, one of them's gonna stick, and then you can use that information of like what ones of these are catching attention to be like, okay, I'm gonna create more that are like this.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok is there's so much more of a possibility to go viral on there, I swear.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm with you.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't really gotten on the train of using it for my business yet.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to do that more in the new year, but like I used it personally and saw so much success just from posting consistently.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think at one point I was posting three times a day, and I did get to a point where I had multiple videos go viral, and it was like on Instagram, that doesn't I can post as many times, and I might get a reel that has like a thousand views, and I know that there's a bunch of strategy that goes into that that I am probably not privy to.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, but if you want right, right, if you want like huge visibility, I think TikTok is really where it's at.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like so much easier.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, like my as a social media manager, my strategy for my podcast is like, yeah, I'm gonna use Instagram to do like what you said, you know, draw some people in, maybe people who are already really warm to me are gonna convert and be listeners.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna use my email list, of course, as well.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm planning to like hit it hard on TikTok because one, I do not have the time to create three TikTok videos a day.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the time with the current state of my business, but I do have a lot of snippets from podcast episodes that I can share.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, while I know that's not like if I had more time, yeah, I'd create some more original content to go along with that as well.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: But at this point in my business, that's what I'm gonna do.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm gonna use that on TikTok.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are people that come to me and they don't really have a following at all, and they're like, how do I get an audience?
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like TikTok, you know, you already have like a pretty good Instagram following that's warm, like you said.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you do need to like invest where the audience is warm, and then the TikTok clips will just be working in your favor while that's happening, and it's so easy to just draw, like pull those clips and put them out there.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and honestly, it's I'm I'm here for working hard, which is obviously why I'm like, I'm gonna start a podcast, I can do this, but I'm also for like doing what makes sense and what's like easy for your business.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if TikTok's gonna be able to support a little bit of an easier content strategy, then throw that at there.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: True, like try it out, you know?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then on Instagram, maybe just take it a little easier because I don't feel like my audience on Instagram would really love to see all those clips, they're gonna be like bored of that, um, and it will dry up really easily.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm like on TikTok, that's a completely different ballgame.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, for sure.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: You'll be drawing from two different audiences that are expecting different things from you.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, and also yeah, you are already like really taking care of yourself and your business as far as this podcast goes by getting these recorded before you're launched, like that is such a huge thing.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is work to launch a podcast, but like you're doing it in a way that's taking care of your nervous system once you launch.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: Cause so many people will launch and then be trying to go week to week.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think about how much of a cold I had last week, and I'm like, if I had to record a podcast while I felt like that, it would not have been a good thing.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, exactly.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: And just like, you don't know what's gonna come up.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel like that consistency part is so important.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's like I don't really want to miss an episode, so I'm trying to batch out enough that I don't, I won't likely I won't put myself in that position.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you are starting a podcast, what you don't know yet, is that it's hard.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: It takes time.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to learn the softwares, you have to, if you're doing it on your own, of course, you can always hire a podcast manager like Anna because she's amazing.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're kind of in the newer stages, maybe not ready to invest in it yet, like it takes time.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have hiccups, oh for sure.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: Things are gonna get messed up and you have to try again.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it's just not something that like you just can start.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why so many podcasts put out three episodes, two episodes, and then disappear because it's like, oh, I have to do this every week.
• 54:15
  unknown: Oh my god.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna die.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for talking to me.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: I do have one more question before I set you free.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what would it be?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: It could be about your career, your life, really anything.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh, um, I would say it's okay to not have it figured out.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that sounds so like a duh, but and it's something that I feel like a lot of people answer with this question, but it is like me a couple years ago, I can't even tell you how much panic I had about like having my life figured out and like being the best at what I do and trying to, you know, build some sort of career, even though I didn't really know what career I would even want.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea that podcast management existed, even like this is the one-year anniversary, basically, is Thanksgiving of last year, is when I really started this.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: And like I just have compassion for where you are.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in a place where you're like, oh my god, I don't know what I want to do with my life, that's okay.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it does suck to be there and to be doing things that you maybe don't care about.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it also is very necessary, I think, to go through those moments of not knowing what you're doing because it forces you to pay attention to what you're interested in and those little pings that you get that's like go this way, go this way, go this way.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and none of it is it's not ever gonna be just like a straight lineup.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be swirly.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, no, like that's just so true because you just don't know.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: And where you are right now, even if you think you know what you're doing, like chances are in five years you're gonna be doing something different.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're gonna evolve and it's all good.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like five years ago, I was like in acting school and just panicking about oh my gosh, right out of acting school, I need to like book a movie.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't do that, I'm gonna be a loser.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, my dogs are barking.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're fine.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_01: But then the pandemic hit as soon as I graduated, and it was like, haha, to your plans.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Good luck with that.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like we're in the literal same boat because same.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was like graduating college and I'm like, oh, I guess none of this is like real anymore.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what's happening.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then same.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: It led me, it led me here and it led us to this podcast, which is so fun.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can't I just can't believe that I like used to.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I still just listen to podcasts all the time.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: I listen to podcasts all through college.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's what got me through college, probably, and now I'm like on podcasts.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's insane.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you're absolutely killing it.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining me today.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Your information has been so valuable.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're so sweet.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not already following Anna, you need to.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: I will link her Instagram in the show notes so you can access it.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but thank you so much for being here today.