Latest / IMI Podcasts / #9: Why the North Macedonian Government is Quiet About the CIP - Sam Bayat on the Mobility Standard

Transcript

#9: Why the North Macedonian Government is Quiet About the CIP - Sam Bayat on the Mobility Standard · IMI Podcasts

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_03: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: in St.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Kitts.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to a new episode of the Mobility Standard, the podcast where we dissect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Christian Nesse, editor of Investment Migration Insider, and with me in today's episode I have my co-hosts Ahmad Rabba, Romero Castres, as well as our guest this week, Mr.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Sam Bayat, founder of Bayot Legal Services, a man who's been active in the investment migration market since, well, the beginning of the investment migration market.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: We touched on a broad range of topics and raised questions like why is it that so many of those company founders who today are big names in the investment migration market all got their start in Montreal?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: In other words, why is Montreal in particular the birthplace of so many leading investment migration firms?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: Sam has been in investment migration since the early 90s.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: What did the market look like back then?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Which were the major RCBI programs at the time, and how has the market changed since then?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Sam says he's concerned that the industry as a whole doesn't have adequate, quote, representation or a more active think tank to give our perspective on different issues, end quote.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: But isn't that what the IMC is doing?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Sam has a different take on that and new ideas around what needs to change in investment migration industry associations for them to be truly effective.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_03: Ideas on which he elaborated during the show.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: He also explained why he's decided not to join any industry associations for the moment.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Sam is closely involved in the promotion of North Macedonian citizenship by investments throughout the MENA region.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Considering the conspicuous absence of official mention of the program, we asked him whether we can be confident that there is a government-sanctioned 200,000 euro citizenship by investment program in North Macedonia.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: Why is the government still not saying anything?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: All that and a great deal more in today's episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'd like to remind you that you can follow all of IMI's stories on our website, imidail.com, on our mobile phone apps, in our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcast platforms.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: With the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Sam, I I have the impression that a lot of the key figures in investment migration today, especially the ones that have been around for the longest, can all sort of be traced back to Montreal or at least Quebec province somehow.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: So we mentioned you yourself, there's Armin Arton of the eponymous firm, uh Eric Major, erstwhile CEO of Henley and Partners, now Latitude, Nouri Katz of Apex Capital, Jean-Francois Harvey of Harvey Law Group, Marc Audet of Oray Capital, and many others that I'm sure I'm I'm forgetting.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: They all kind of started out in Quebec and with the QAID key, a lot of them did that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: That of course has been suspended on and off since 2013-14, and uh virtually all of the figures that I just mentioned have long since expanded way, way out of Quebec, way beyond Quebec.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm curious to know why you think that so many industry leaders got their start precisely there in Quebec.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think it's because Quebec's IIP was one of the early major residency by investment programs, and that this drove a sort of concentration of investment migration expertise in Quebec, or is it something else?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's all of the bug.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay, all of the bug.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because A it has to do with the volume of applications, and uh and also about the fact that uh when we talk volume, uh Quebec used to take nearly uh 6,000 applications uh pre-2012, and um the federal program used to take about three, four thousand applications.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking 10,000 applications nearly, and that is uh pre-2012.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: So when in 2012 the federal government of Canada, uh the conservative Jason Kenney, who's a premier in Alberta now, uh decided to cut the federal program and uh decided that the Quebec had to also be curtailed to less uh applicants.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he stopped the whole thing in 2012 and in 2014 they canceled nearly 62,000 applications that were filed as a federal investor in the federal program.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: So why most of the people or the companies in industry have a passe with the Quebec investor program with the federal Canadian investor program is the fact that we we used to have a big machinery to produce a lot of applications.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Quebec applications are also helped a lot because uh we we were used to a very high standard of uh uh file applications which uh demanded a lot of expertise, especially when it came to source of funds.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: So and when the uh when St.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Kids started uh really changing their speed, because when they got their uh Schengen uh pre that period, they had filed since the beginning till then of almost I believe 850 applications.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then suddenly they got their application, uh their Schengen uh visa-free, uh their application jumped to nearly 2,000 per year.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: What year what year was this?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: What year was it that got the Schengen visa?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was two around the same time, 2012.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then uh the rest of the Caribbean, like Dominica, they were not producing too many.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think they were in the two, three hundred applications a year, and then when Dominica also and the rest of the Caribbeans got their Schengen, and then they also jumped.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, then since then I think Dominica also are probably 2,000 plus applications per year.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: They certainly are now.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's north of 2,000, uh, and I believe it's the same in St.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: Kitts, although they are very hesitant to share precise data.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we got we got some data from uh Dominica for the first time this year, um indicating yes, it's it's well north of 2,000 applicants a year now.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's very interesting, Sam, about the the early days.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: What what what were the programs that were around in 93 when you set up in Dubai your law firm?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: What were the major programs back then?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: In addition, so obviously you had the federal Canadian program, you had the uh Quebec uh IIP.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh beyond that, what was on the market?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: I I asked because uh the programs that are the major programs today, including EB5, uh most of the Golden Visa programs in the EU, um four out of the five current Caribbean CIPs were not there.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so what was there when you were starting out?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well when we started, uh the the bulk of the program, I would say, was with the Quebec investor uh the yes, Quebec Investor Federal uh Investor Program and a lot of skill workers uh and some applications in UK.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but most of the UK business applications were with the uh entrepreneur program, not the investors, although it was at the million and it was financed at uh 180,000 by uh HSBC.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's it, there was not much of a choice.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's why it was easy.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh business was easy, and the choice the client had wasn't very difficult.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Today, of course, it's different.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much choice and uh so many programs to choose from.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: You have the CBIs and you have the RBIs, and of course you have the migration programs that have evolved also.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the numbers today, uh if you put the CBIs aside, is still very low.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, although we say uh EV5s are a lot, it's just 10,000 visas.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you divide the 10,000 visas by the number of uh average applicants per application is three, that's roughly about 3,300 applications.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so the number of visas and the number of applications are not the same.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's still a fairly small program.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, UK has remained small because uh they have roughly about three, four hundred investors a year, but but the the whole map has changed now.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think the uh startup visas they're gonna be attracting a lot more because I don't think any of the countries are interested in you know the pure investment, passive investments with uh money being so inexpensive.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, do we really need entrepreneurs buff?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I think on the other hand, when we talk about business immigration, the startup visas to attract innovators, to attract people who can uh who can bring new ideas, I think that's gonna be the uh the the bulk of the business.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the Europeans are jumped on that.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: UK uh my last case it took two months compared to Canada's UVs, which is a year and a half plus uh adventure with the Canadian immigration.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think that there is a certain I I think that it's unpalatable politically to some extent to have uh people simply pay money and get a visa or pay money get citizenship.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's always something that um the media politicians uh they of course they they enjoy getting that capital into the country, but they find it a tough sell a lot of the time politically.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas entrepreneur programs, startup visa programs, where a lot of the time the applicant physically moves, relocates to the new country, that is much more easily defended in politics, I think.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: Do you think that that's the reason why we're seeing this rise in more hands-on type of uh investor visas?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, I don't think so.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh the I mean in the case of Canada, if you look at it, the entrepreneur and the investor, the active engagement and the uh passive uh avenue to Canada has always been the beast, uh the black beast of everyone, and they don't like them because they don't see they're contributing too much.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the startup visas, that's gonna be different because that's more on the innovative side, and everyone seems to believe that technology is good, is gonna be beneficial.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that seems to be today, as we say in French, L'Enfant Chéri, the dear child of all the politicians, because they're all hoping that they're gonna find that unicorn within that bunch of clients.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, the premier of Quebec three years ago, when he announced the Quebec startup uh program, and uh he was mentioning that within the hundred they're gonna select in that year, there's gonna be for sure one unicorn in them.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: So everybody seems to be gambling on finding the next big uh, you know, Amazon uh being among these uh startup visas, you know, uh which unfortunately has been turned into a passive migration program in the case of Canada, actually almost in other programs where people within our industry are selling these as a uh, you know, pay this much money, we'll take care of everything, then you get the visa and you're home free, you don't need to do anything, uh, which is gonna cause a big problem very soon, in my opinion, because once the authorities get uh uh get into it and they will realize that most of these people they paid a big amount of money, 100 to 300,000, and they never actually bothered setting up any business to uh uh after the landing or after they came to the country.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: The thing about active investments that I know countries look at uh someone who's bringing up a business as a continuous source of uh benefit.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they pay taxes, they create jobs, they make exports, they you know, encourage new businesses to pop up and do more work.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: My problem with the startup or innovation visa or all of these new trends coming up is like what Sam said, they're becoming more of a passive investment scheme that's just built upon loopholes.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: So my question basically too is do you think countries would benefit from steering the tent towards traditional entrepreneurial immigration like the tier one entrepreneur in the UK, which they closed?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think sticking with the startups for you know just giving out PRs and hoping that one person comes up and says, Yeah, I have a great idea.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and this is actually the next Amazon will be worth it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think is better on the long run?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it should be a mix of both because A, uh our economies are still very much dependent on traditional businesses.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: We need the restaurant, we need the gas station, we need the car wash, we need the you know, the regular, the old traditional businesses.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: But then also uh I think we need to innovate and bring talent, bring people that have innovative ideas and attract and be a magnet.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: In the case of Canada, uh I think the SUV could be working better if they had a better control of who's coming in and who's promoting the program.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think they should definitely bring back the entrepreneur uh program in there.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think what what has lacked in Canada is too, is the A application process is too long.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: You can't bring talent if they have to wait a year, two years to come in.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you if if they're talented, they're gonna be uh grabbed by someone else in the meantime.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and B, uh the the monitoring is lax very much.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and that has been the cause in the past in Canada, where people were just given a visa and then without a condition, or if they had a condition, it was not very much uh enforced.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think also though in the in the world after through COVID and after COVID, where people are working remotely and not entirely back in the office, uh, digital nomad visas uh might also steer market share away from uh traditional entrepreneurial visas, where maybe the future for entrepreneurs to live for six months in Estonia and six months in Dubai and six months in Costa Rica and countries that offer these types of more flexible programs might attract that talent that they're looking for.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: What do you what do you think about that, Jeff?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think absolutely.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's why uh Dubai, in their wisdom of uh leadership, uh that they always innovate, uh, they have this, they have now this visa, this visa category where if someone, um, I don't know, is for example, in I'm not gonna say Afghanistan, I say Pakistan, uh, and they have a job from someone in France, they can actually request to get a residency visa in Dubai because they have an international job and they can get paid in Dubai, live in Dubai, enjoy the facility and spend their money uh in Dubai rather than back home.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I think yes, we're gonna see a lot more initiative like this.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And countries uh like Canada, if they want to attract uh talent, they gotta be, they gotta be a little more uh tuned with the realities that uh a lot of things are that virtual now.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, uh again, talking, I don't want to talk too bad about Canada.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just about to send an application of a Quebec investor that was approved, uh, and now I gotta file their second step, which is at the federal level, permanent residency or inadmissibility.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a 10 kilo application I have to actually send to Canada.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now, who's gonna scan that?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Who how long is it gonna take before someone actually is gonna review that file?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna be probably a year.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: So this guy who's already invested has to wait another year, probably before someone actually takes the time to see.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we have a big package which is like uh, you know, uh a foot high, and then we have to do something with it.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Other countries is all online, it's you know, you instantly fill the forms and update your documents, pay online, it's done.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So that's one aspect.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the second aspect, again, talking about Canada just mentioned the second step is called inadmissibility.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: See, there's all already negative connotations in it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything for you to be inadmissible?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're not gonna check his admissibility, we're gonna check his inadmissibility.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: So um definitely with countries that are gonna innovate with these digital nomad visas, uh uh with uh work done online, with virtual work in the post-COVID world.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh the traditional way of uh taking applications, uh processing applications are just gonna be way too slow and not efficient.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Sam, when when I asked you the other day to come on the show and I asked you what you would like to talk about on the podcast, you said you'd be interested in bringing up your concern about industry practitioners, quote, not having proper representation and no think tank to give our perspective on different issues.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: To which I responded, Well, isn't that what the IMC is doing?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: And you said you see the IMC as a restrictive private initiative.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what do you mean by that?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, first of all, I think uh they've done an amazing job.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but uh, they don't represent the entire industry.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, for example, there's no one from the Middle East, so they don't know our perspective, they don't know what's happening in our market.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, A.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: B, I think uh so far what they have done, they have actually tried to be a mouthpiece for the programs that are good for certain uh consultants or companies, you know, and whenever there is bad news in the um in the media, uh they're never there uh to comment.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for example, um it's about what uh two months ago there was news that some uh some people have obtained Albanian citizenship and someone has issued uh passports to them, and uh Albania can't control this passport issuing business.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, you know, if if uh I had a full-time job to defend our industry, I would have said, well, wait a minute, didn't the Canadians in about seven, eight years ago in Hong Kong had an employee issue 1,500 passports, you know, and selling them, and then you know, uh that didn't make too much news.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or when um poor guy gets a citizenship in one of the Caribbean countries, everyone's uh in dismay that how come this bad element got the citizenship?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: Or we don't mention about the fact that uh many African dictators have a Canadian citizenship living in Canada, having enjoyed bank accounts.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, do we talk about that?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Do we go identify them and publish uh their names that hey, wait a minute, if a a small country with limited resource makes a mistake, um they're punished.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: And then big countries uh like UK, Canada, they have admitted people with very, very shady backgrounds or past backgrounds who were there, and no one talks about that.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, and and when somebody gets by mistake a citizenship, uh it makes the news all over the world, you know.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: So if I think uh I would expect someone uh to represent me, my industry, uh with uh a think tank, a group of individuals ready to respond, uh first responders of the industry to show the world that hey, if a program we work with made a mistake, well it happened, it we will try, they will try to resolve it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Will try to solve it that it doesn't happen, but it's not reserved for these programs.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Bigger countries make similar.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: For example, if you look at the case of Bin Ali, uh the former uh uh leader in Tunisia, uh I happen to live in a neighborhood in Montreal that their house was about four or five houses away from us, and uh they were living in Canada nice and comfortably, and nobody bothered them as long as this the brother was ruling the country.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: But as soon as he was ousted, ah, guess what?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: They got news, they got uh they were informed that the residency and were were gonna be remote uh revoked because of uh past elements pre-immigration to Canada.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh suddenly that was a big surprise.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh I think uh uh Justice Canada uh very, very frequently goes after people after they get the citizenship and go back and look at uh their past and you know.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think uh anyway, coming back to IC, I think we need better representation uh to show the world that we have a good business, there are good programs, they're they're needed, and if there are mistakes, well, it happens to other countries as well.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: That that's just one aspect.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I think we are more concerned with setting up seminars and talking uh among ourselves and you know rather than uh talking to people who are not part of our industry.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: So let me just counter uh on behalf of uh Bruno Lecuye, uh, who I'm just anticipating what he might say if he had the chance to be on the show with us.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure we'll have him uh uh if if he'll agree to come on the show in the future.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um you say that the IMC uh doesn't have members in the Middle East and therefore doesn't represent the Middle Eastern perspective.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they they do have a number of companies, uh Middle East-based RCBI companies, who who are members.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: But and the second point is you say that yes, it's a it's a private initiative that preserves the interests of private actors.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: But to that I would say, look, somebody has to start these associations, and uh so in the case of IMC, there was uh obviously Henley and partners were the the primary uh supporters of of the IMC to begin with, and since then it's grown to uh encompass a much more wide range of service providers who are also involved in that.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: And if if it's not a private sector company that starts this type of association, then then who would it be?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: Who would who would be doing the think tank job, who would be representing the industry if it weren't for uh the private initiative initially?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um well my uh I didn't say they don't have representation in terms of members.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my uh comment was mostly regarding the governance and the the advisory committee, you know, uh of the group, uh, which needs to have better representation uh, you know, worldwide.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um that was my comment.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh of course I can see on the map that they have uh they have people from all over or which have become members.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's it's it's quite interesting.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then again, as I said, it's uh if we go inside the uh gossip and what's happening back, uh it's you can see that there is there seems to be a polarization of the industry.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: There is the GIIC that was created uh nearly uh uh day by day in the same time, the same time as uh as IMC was created, you know, that that lets did you think that wait wait a minute, is it basically two group that are trying to uh take control of the image?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, uh I would have meant uh instances advise both groups that maybe they should merge, you know, and that would be ideal.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Why are we making such uh create such uh division?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um they all have the same interests.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Sam, are you personally or buyout group, are you members of the IMC?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm trying not to be member of anyone as long as there's no one group with a clear mandate to represent us in general, you know.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um who can give that kind of mandate?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: Who can give that kind of mandate?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, listen, it's we are in public now.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think if IMC and GIIC basically if Henley and Arton would agree to work together to represent the interest of the intra of the industry, and if there was one entity, I would be a member, I would be a full-fledged member, I would be a uh corporate member, why not?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know, but then if that happens, either there should be a third entity or if they have the both of them merged, they've merged the boards of both, you know, uh, then we'll have something nice to work on, you know.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um as long as uh we show that uh uh it's it's their one group is tilted more towards one group or toward another side.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't think uh I don't want to get inside that game.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um busy with my work, I'm busy with my profession, busy with my kids.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So no, not interested.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: But today there will be one group with one clear mandate, which is our interest, my interest, your interest.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, sure, why not?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you're successful, because you you're you're a party.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: You you you represent your mouthpiece for us.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: You bring the news, you bring it clearly, you bring it with uh without ambiguity and without bias.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: So the day we have an association like that, I think uh everyone will join.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, uh, first of all, I think it's the first time uh I've been called a mouthpiece.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and second, uh second, we're we're we're not all that successful, uh Sam.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: You'd be surprised.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so everybody, of course, uh I just want to remind everyone to sign up for IMI Club um and uh enjoy all the benefits uh thereto pertaining uh so that we can become more successful.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um but uh yes, I think that the the IMC obviously has spent a lot of resources uh uh doing a good job and and trying to be representative as as broadly as possible.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh at the same time, I recognize that there is a certain uh division.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: You you called it um uh exclusionary, I think, or a restrictive, Sam.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but I think that any any um advocacy group, any association representing an industry, in order to function properly, it needs to be restrictive a little bit.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: It it can't uh let just anybody uh be a member, uh if you understand what I mean.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Part of part of uh the job of an association like that is to not include everybody so as to distinguish between reputable and not reputable.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: I think what you're saying is that there are some reputable companies that for business reasons have not been included.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Is that is that am I interpreting your your um points correctly or not?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yes and no.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, I think uh what you said is correct.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, I don't think uh the exclusion was in regard to the good or the bad company, you know.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um I would also invite the not so good ones to join because then we can create a standard.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: We can create a uniform, uniform ways of working, you know, and then by creating a bigger association which has a bigger base of members, then we can make sure that some standards are uphold, you know, and only uh certain companies, and if they don't adhere to the standard, to the ethics, then they would not be uh part of the uh they will not have the membership.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: So initially let everyone come in, put some requirement, courses, ethics, and if they follow that, well, they remain.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: If not, they don't.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: But then if everybody, if a lot of members are there, then the public will become aware that if they want a certain standard of service, like charter accountants, like lawyers, like other professions, they need to make sure uh they hire someone which has adhered to this association.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: So you're saying uh at the beginning, have no standards at all, invite everybody in, and then after a year or so, start applying some standards and kick out the ones who are not adhering to those standards?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't go two years, I will do it much uh shorter.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: And uh once they become a member, they can they can start implementing some of the philosophies.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, it's like the ISO standards, you know.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: You can sign for them, you have a certain time to adhere to those standards, then you become a full-fledged member.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: So you're saying the mistake is to a priori exclude people?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: Somehow.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Ahmad, do you have a point?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm actually neither here nor there, not with what you're saying or with Sam, I'm uh in between because uh I do love what the IMC are doing.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Problem is uh as long as they are completely private and completely dependent upon firms coming to them and becoming members, I don't think they have any leverage against the firms.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say, for example, I have a firm and I want them, you know, some certain program in a convoluted way.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: IMC come and say, yeah, but you can't do that.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody say, okay, well, what are you gonna do?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And let's say they kick me out.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can still work with whatever country I'm um selling the program of.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't really have anything to you know penalize me with.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the main But how could they?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: But how could they?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, unless they were a government organization, what could they say?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: With a public um a public sector, let's say, infusion.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say Dominica, for example, come and say, okay, anybody who wants to work with us has to be an IMC certified to maintain that standard.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, then the IMC because if if there is no actual value to the standard when it comes to uh working files and submitting applications and so on, a lot of firms won't actually will say, yeah, we don't need the enhanced due diligence knowledge, we don't need the guidance, we don't need that support in the media.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: We just want to you know sell as much clients as we can, make as much money as we can, and then you know, close this shop and open another one.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them do this.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: But for the MSA to actually make a difference, it has to have a public or a governmental side to it.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: It has to have let's say you're you're a cop in New York, and Rahul, I think, can back me up on this one.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not part of the uh of a union, you can really do your job.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can't I don't think if you're not part of the union, you can't actually, you know, work as a cop or you can't work as a pharmacist or a doctor.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's the power of the union.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if the IMCI is acting like a union instead of an association, any firm who's not part of that union can't sell RCBI because the destination company, Dominica, Granada, uh CEF and Portugal, whatever, won't accept that application without an IMC stamp on it.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe the the their effort to uh provide a degree, a certification uh that ensures that it's a minimum requirement before you can practice in the industry could be uh uh a step towards that direction.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's a three-part course, no, I believe.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, I I love for it before we finish, uh, to be honest.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: But I I love the the thought behind this stuff, and I learned a lot from my my process in the first modules.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_04: But that could be a way to ensure that everybody has a level playing field.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_04: Just like the CFA in finance, uh it's not a requirement, but it is indicative of the seriousness of the person in terms of pursuing that profession and understanding it very rigorously, uh, drawing a distinction between practitioners, ones that have that certification and ones that don't could be uh a way to uh get to the same outcome, perhaps.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I I think that is uh probably what the IMC uh is pursuing, is that sort of strategy where they say, look, uh we cannot hope to uh regulate the market because we don't have that kind of power.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh what we can do is we can create a qualitative difference between members and non-members and uh increase the perception in the market among the consumers that look if you if you want to be if you want to be sure about uh the company you're going with, make sure they're IMC certified, right?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what they are uh trying.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: But then uh the problem is that uh reputable professional uh firms like Bay Out Group uh choose to remain on the outside, even though uh I'm sure they would be perfectly qualified to be a part of that.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but you're choosing to sit that out.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: You, Rogelo, you've chosen to become an IMC member uh right from the beginning of your investment migration uh adventure, isn't that right?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's my anniversary.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: Uh uh one year versus uh 29 years.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's the the delta in this podcast alone uh of experience.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: But yes, uh it was one of the first things I did.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_04: They've been very helpful in helping us get up the learning curve and learning the players.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_04: We sponsored several of those events, uh both in the United States and in terms of webinars.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, uh I'm fully supporter of that training type of material.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right, for sure.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna have to invite uh Bruno now very soon to the show.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_03: So uh he'll have a chance to uh tell his side of things, and and I'm very curious to hear what sort of plans they have for the future.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I definitely applaud their work.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I'm a member myself, I should disclose that.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so yeah, I would I would love to have Bruno on the show.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: And too bad we can't have Bruno and Sam together.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: Now, speaking of private initiatives, uh Sam, let's talk a little bit about citizenship by investment in North Macedonia.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because I tell you, it's been very tricky for me as a journalist to report accurately on this.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because, on the one hand, I have a number of reputable RCBI companies, like your own Buyout Group or Jean-Francois Harvey's uh Harvey Law Group assuring me that you can get citizenship in North Macedonia through a$200,000 donation to a government fund and that it's officially sanctioned by that country's authorities.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: But at the same time, that same country's government has made no public announcement to that effect.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, Sam, without getting yourself into any kind of trouble, can you tell me what's going on?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_03: Is there or is there not a formal CIP in North Macedonia?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was there about six weeks ago.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I met the uh the people in the government.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: They do have the law, there is an office in charge of the program.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh let me correct you, it's not 200 US, it's 200,000 euro.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um we have received the first 10 approvals.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh two of them are my clients.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: And uh within the next uh planning uh 30 days, I think we should get the citizenship uh certificates issued.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the the biggest problems the promoters of this program and the agent and the government agency who is in charge of this program has or they've had is basically the government's attitude where although they have been recommended to replicate models, existing models like Abu Dika's, where it's very clear and everything's very straightforward.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um just one example uh well, just one example, application forms are very simple.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we have recommended, well, they have recommended uh more elaborate application forms, but they still use the old 20 years ago application.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's East Eastern Europe, so it's not very fast, and they're not really um inclined to change.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but definitively I think uh within the next month you're gonna see the first citizenship and passports issued to our clients, and that should give confidence.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: Once that is done, uh I think the government is also gonna be a little more uh proactive in terms of changing and making it a little more clear.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's very slow, and change and suggestions are not really um implemented immediately.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I think is is gonna be great, so uh especially with uh Montenegro closing uh in about four months.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh North Macedonia is gonna have a very, very nice uh position uh in terms of a European CBI, you know.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: But I tell you what would give the market confidence and what would give give me confidence to put up a program page on North Macedonia on IMI, for example, and to to to refer to it as a citizenship by investment program.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm still I'm it's difficult for me to, you know, people ask me, is there a citizenship program in North Macedonia?
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's difficult for me to uh confirm that 100%.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and the most important reason for that is that the final piece of the puzzle is missing.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: The the government needs to publicly acknowledge yes, we have a citizenship by investment program, and yes, there is a 200,000 euro route to that through a donation to the fund.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: Why why are they dragging their feet on that?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's as I said, the law is there, the amendments to the citizenship law is there because basically there is a law that says 400,000 investment, job creation would get you the citizenship.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I have seen uh the law firm, the lawyer, and the clients who have obtained it.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: The amendments to that law to reduce that to 200 is there as well.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: But as I said, uh the implementing recommendations is very slow, and it's uh um, I guess they're on their own sort of sort Caribbean time, too.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so uh the Caribbean programs have evolved, they've become extremely good uh in terms of uh uh showing how their programs work, but that took time.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they all have the same sort of a website, naming agents, service providers, financial marketing agent, the application form, cost, procedure.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: I guess uh in Eastern Europe is going to be the same thing.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: But look at the Moldova program that closed.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't have a great website describing everything, you know, neither.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I guess they're in the same area.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but okay, to be fair, in Moldova, the the head of their CIU and uh some ministers of theirs, they did come to the IMC conference, the forum.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they did to they did conduct press conferences.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like I understand that it takes time to implement a program.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: It takes time to um obviously in the Caribbean, they've had decades to fine-tune their programs and their websites and their application forums and all that.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: But to hold a simple press conference, that isn't something that necessarily needs to take a long time.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, a half an hour of planning, and you can you can hold a press conference.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: You understand where I'm coming from?
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: I agree, and I can see your points, and I have made the same points uh to the people I met uh when I was there.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: But as I said, there it's much more slower process.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I can assure you by uh end of September we're probably gonna uh we're most probably gonna show you good results, uh positive and conclusive.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I'm not a North Macedonia expert, uh, although I play one on TV, but I'm looking at the Wikipedia code, and uh they were the next country to attend to NATO and were blocked, approved to go into the EU, but blocked by Bulgaria.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: So they're that close from getting to the EU, it seems like, and therefore maybe that's why they don't want to publicly announce it, given the sensitivity the EU might have on statistics by investor programs, or uh well, it's it's very likely.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's very likely because uh I know that with Greece they had a big fight as to uh their name, uh they had a big uh discussion as to where were Alexander born, was it in Greece?
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: Was it in Macedonia?
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's a very, very uh complex uh picture in there.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think you want something, yes.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's true that the European Union has uh recently begun to sort of warn uh countries that are on the verge of ascension that hey hey, don't don't joke don't you go messing around with these citizenship by investment programs and imperil your chances of of EU accession?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh is that not a sort of is that not a form of not bullying but um intimidation on the part of the EU?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: Is that is that a little bit unfair that they do that?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: I understand that the European Commission doesn't like citizenship by investment, but at the same time, um as long as they are independent countries, they are supposed to be able to decide on these matters on their own, right?
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I know.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, look at uh what our industry has done in uh other European countries, look what happened in uh Cyprus with members of our uh industry bringing bad elements, look at our people in the industry, uh what uh happened in Malta.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: So of course, definitely it has uh last uh given a bad taste to the European Union uh Parliament.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but Bulgaria has done well in this space, uh, not too much trouble.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: The only negative thing with Bulgaria has been uh Bulgaria CBI has been uh maybe a slower process uh of the application of citizenship showance.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: But uh besides that, uh slow process, I don't see much problem there.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if we had played a better game in Cyprus and Malta, I think today the European Union would have not been so sensitive.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's it for today, folks.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions you have about investment migration.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: I want to thank my co-host, the inimitable Ahmadabas, and remind you to follow our work on imidly.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, home to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.