Latest / Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association / Episode 9: NO Supermen! Leaders: Take Off Your Capes. With Counselor Immanuel Marsh. 2 Things I wish I knew sooner about defending the Faith. + Clearest Signs of Anxiety from My Clients. Are Christians who Believe the Bible weak-minded?

Transcript

Episode 9: NO Supermen! Leaders: Take Off Your Capes. With Counselor Immanuel Marsh. 2 Things I wish I knew sooner about defending the Faith. + Clearest Signs of Anxiety from My Clients. Are Christians who Believe the Bible weak-minded? · Every Church Flourishing by the Great Commission Association

0:14
Speaker1: Leaders and pastors find health, encouragement, practical advice,
0:18
Speaker1: soul care, and resources that work together to build up your local fellowship
0:22
Speaker1: and the broader kingdom of God.
0:24
Speaker1: Join hosts, Pastor Chris Cole
0:26
Speaker1: and Dr. Chase Thompson from the Great Commission Association, led by Dr.
0:30
Speaker1: Mike Stewart, as they explore the frontiers of ministry and aim for the goal
0:34
Speaker1: of making every church flourish.
0:36
Speaker0: Well, hello again, everybody, and welcome into episode number nine of the Every
0:41
Speaker0: Church Flourishing Podcast. We are a show that's all about church health,
0:46
Speaker0: church growth, and taking care of pastors, leaders, and ministers.
0:50
Speaker0: And we are put on by the Great Commission Association of California.
0:56
Speaker0: Today, we've got a really great show for you. We've got part two of a fantastic
1:00
Speaker0: interview with Emmanuel Marsh,
1:03
Speaker0: a counselor from Alabama who specializes in working with pastors and leaders
1:08
Speaker0: who are struggling with burnout and trauma and depression.
1:12
Speaker0: We're also going to be talking about some fantastic apologetics resources with
1:17
Speaker0: Easter coming up, and we've got a review of this really mysterious soda that
1:24
Speaker0: showed up just last week, unannounced,
1:27
Speaker0: sent anonymously to the Every Church Flourishing Podcast Studios.
1:32
Speaker0: It's called Inca Cola, and after the interview, we're going to learn all about
1:38
Speaker0: it and its primary ingredient, which is lemon verbena, whatever in the world that is.
1:45
Speaker0: Well, I want to start out today talking about Easter and resurrection because
1:50
Speaker0: that's just around the corner.
1:51
Speaker0: And I've always thought that Christmas and Easter are the two best times of
1:55
Speaker0: the year for Christians to be ready to engage skeptics, seekers, questioners, etc.
2:02
Speaker0: And I think there's two major primary ways that we believers should answer skeptics,
2:08
Speaker0: answer critics, answer questions, glorify Christ, bear witness to the gospel and obey 1 Peter 3.15,
2:16
Speaker0: which is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, and it says, In your hearts,
2:20
Speaker0: honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone
2:26
Speaker0: who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, yet do so with gentleness and respect.
2:33
Speaker0: I think there's two major keys to interacting with skeptics and critics and
2:40
Speaker0: questioners and seekers of the faith and obeying that command in 1 Peter 3.15.
2:46
Speaker0: Number one, I think all Christians, not just all smart Christians or all seminary
2:52
Speaker0: Christians or all pastors or whatever.
2:54
Speaker0: But all Christians should be more or less an expert on the resurrection.
3:00
Speaker0: And look, I don't mean like a snooty know-it-all who exudes pride and is quick
3:06
Speaker0: to correct or shame other people.
3:08
Speaker0: I mean somebody who knows and understands all of the issues surrounding the
3:13
Speaker0: resurrection of Jesus in a profoundly deep way that really kind of welcomes
3:19
Speaker0: and invites people to listen.
3:20
Speaker0: When Greg Maddox, the former pitcher for the Atlanta Braves,
3:25
Speaker0: when he talks about pitching, you've got to listen because that guy knows ball.
3:31
Speaker0: I mean, he did not have a tremendously powerful arm, but he had such an incredible
3:36
Speaker0: pitching mind. He was one of the best of all time.
3:39
Speaker0: If you had an opportunity to sit down with cellist Yo-Yo Ma and he was talking
3:45
Speaker0: to you about music and playing the cello,
3:48
Speaker0: that would command your instant respect if you had any interest in that whatsoever,
3:53
Speaker0: because that is a guy who knows his stuff.
3:56
Speaker0: Maybe you're at a burger stand and you see Nick Saban or something,
4:01
Speaker0: and he's talking about football and coaching college football.
4:05
Speaker0: Well, you should listen because there's not a greater expert out there on the
4:09
Speaker0: whole process of coaching college football than Saban.
4:13
Speaker0: And I think we Christians should approach the resurrection of Jesus kind of like this.
4:19
Speaker0: We should be the Greg Maddox, the Yo-Yo Ma, the Nick Saban of the resurrection
4:23
Speaker0: of Jesus, because here's the thing.
4:26
Speaker0: That is the very core, the crux, the center, the foundation of our faith.
4:32
Speaker0: We don't have to memorize every book of the Bible or understand every nuance
4:37
Speaker0: of theology or whatever, but man, we should know about the resurrection of Jesus.
4:44
Speaker0: We should be able to talk about it. We should be able to answer questions about
4:48
Speaker0: it and to do it nimbly and skillfully and winsomely kind of discuss the resurrection,
4:54
Speaker0: even if we're attacked on our belief for that,
4:57
Speaker0: because again, that's what it's all about.
5:01
Speaker0: I don't think our job is to argue somebody into the kingdom of God.
5:06
Speaker0: But our job is to answer questions and to allay doubts and to help skeptics see the truth.
5:13
Speaker0: And what we're going to do after our interview with Emmanuel Marsh is we're
5:17
Speaker0: going to look at eight YouTube and Instagram apologetics or resurrection channels
5:23
Speaker0: that you can watch that'll help you become, you know,
5:26
Speaker0: more or less an expert on the resurrection without going to seminary or even
5:31
Speaker0: opening up even one dry and dusty theological tome.
5:35
Speaker0: Well, that's one way to answer questions from skeptics and critics and seekers of Christianity.
5:43
Speaker0: Here's another one, and it's not very obvious, but the second best way to answer
5:49
Speaker0: those kind of people is to be like Fight Life 40.
5:53
Speaker0: Now, what in the world do I mean by that? Well, I don't know Fight Life 45.
5:57
Speaker0: It's just an anonymous person I encountered online last year.
6:02
Speaker0: They're a person on Reddit.
6:04
Speaker0: And if you've never been to Reddit before, it's probably for the best.
6:08
Speaker0: But Reddit is a top 10 most visited website in the world, very popular.
6:13
Speaker0: It's basically a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
6:17
Speaker0: But it's also a place where people discuss anything and everything for a variety
6:22
Speaker0: of reasons, probably some of them good, some of them not so good.
6:25
Speaker0: I've been a pretty much daily reader of Reddit for literally over 18 years.
6:31
Speaker0: And I do that because as a pastor, it really helps me understand where our society is trending.
6:38
Speaker0: Reddit is the opposite of a Christian website. In fact, it's really in a lot
6:43
Speaker0: of ways anti-Christian. But like I said, it's pretty interesting on the one hand.
6:47
Speaker0: On the other hand, it helps me keep my finger on the pulse of America and the West, so to speak.
6:53
Speaker0: And conversation started with a post that said, I can't help but think anyone
6:57
Speaker0: over the age of 30 who takes the Bible seriously and makes it the foundation
7:02
Speaker0: of their life is weak-minded.
7:06
Speaker0: It was an interesting discussion. I actually think it's been deleted.
7:10
Speaker0: I haven't been able to find it, but I did copy and paste parts of it.
7:14
Speaker0: And the one that I really was struck by was the response to that post by Fight Life.
7:20
Speaker0: And this is what he said, and I quote, I'm reading this verbatim.
7:23
Speaker0: I have a very Christian friend.
7:25
Speaker0: He's the strongest and kindest person I know. He forgives people who do him wrong.
7:30
Speaker0: When I would have lashed out in anger, he's the ideal male role model. He gives to the needy.
7:37
Speaker0: He tries to change people's lives for the better.
7:39
Speaker0: He does marriage counseling, often for free.
7:42
Speaker0: He helps kids get out of bad environments and helps with families of suicide
7:46
Speaker0: victims, donates a lot of money to family so they can give their kids Christmas
7:51
Speaker0: presents and never tells anyone.
7:53
Speaker0: He was also a three-time professional athlete and always says he wants to be
7:58
Speaker0: a shining light in a dark world.
8:01
Speaker0: I don't know this guy. Obviously, he sounds like a superstar in pretty much every sense of the word.
8:06
Speaker0: I'm not saying you and I have to be somebody who just does a billion good deeds
8:12
Speaker0: and is also a three-time professional athlete, whatever that might mean.
8:16
Speaker0: But Fight Life 45's friend kind of gets what the Bible is laying down in a way some Christians miss.
8:23
Speaker0: 1 Peter 2.12, for instance, says, conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles.
8:30
Speaker0: In other words, among those outside the church, essentially,
8:33
Speaker0: so that when they slander you as evildoers, they will observe your good works
8:39
Speaker0: and will glorify God on the day he visits.
8:42
Speaker0: In other words, friends, we're supposed to be known for our good works.
8:45
Speaker0: It doesn't save us, but it does define us.
8:49
Speaker0: Matthew 5, 16, Jesus says in the same way, let your light shine before others
8:55
Speaker0: so that they may see your good works and glorify your father.
9:00
Speaker0: So we are to be a people, I think, on the one hand, who knows about the resurrection
9:05
Speaker0: and can answer questions and talk about it in the same way Greg Maddox can talk
9:10
Speaker0: about throwing a change up across the outside corner of the plate.
9:14
Speaker0: And we should be people who not so others will notice, but because we are followers
9:21
Speaker0: of Christ, we help, we give, we do good things for the glory of God.
9:28
Speaker0: Those two things combined, a Christ-honoring, humble, gentle.
9:32
Speaker0: Shining light of works plus a deep understanding of the resurrection and ability
9:37
Speaker0: to answer questions about it and give evidence for it.
9:40
Speaker0: Hey, that's an incredibly powerful combination.
9:44
Speaker0: Like I said at the end of the podcast, we're going to give you several resources
9:47
Speaker0: online that are completely free and will help you become an expert on the resurrection
9:52
Speaker0: by just watching some great videos. But first, we've got an excellent interview for you today.
9:59
Speaker0: Not only that, honestly, just thinking ahead, not only do you have a great interview
10:03
Speaker0: that you're about to listen to, and Emmanuel just does a superb job
10:07
Speaker0: We've also got some fantastic guests coming up on the show, if you give me just
10:11
Speaker0: a second to plug them, including Dr.
10:13
Speaker0: Kristen Ferguson, who is a vice president at Gateway Seminary.
10:18
Speaker0: She's an author, an educational specialist, and a pastor's wife.
10:22
Speaker0: And she's also very interested in the intersection between Christian ministry
10:27
Speaker0: and artificial intelligence. So I can't wait to talk with her.
10:30
Speaker0: We also have David Salcido of the Allender Center and Shalom Restored Coaching
10:36
Speaker0: coming up, Pastor Humberto Hernandez.
10:39
Speaker0: David McConnell, who is the pastor of Agape Baptist in Alabama,
10:43
Speaker0: known for his ability to preach longer sermons than anybody else in the South.
10:49
Speaker0: Also, Dr. CJ1 is going to be joining us for a return visit, and Nick and Lisa
10:55
Speaker0: Jenkins, dear friends who are going through a severe extended medical crisis in their family. on.
11:02
Speaker0: They're going to be talking about how the church can better take care of members
11:06
Speaker0: in the midst of trauma and trials.
11:09
Speaker0: And next week, we've got a great panel of pastors and church leaders and GCA director Dr.
11:16
Speaker0: Mike Stewart is going to be my co-host.
11:18
Speaker0: And he and I are going to interview our panel on relationships in ministry,
11:23
Speaker0: the things that make ministry leadership hard, pastoral loneliness and tips
11:29
Speaker0: to increase your longevity and perseverance in ministry.
11:33
Speaker0: But you know what? That's in the future. Right now, today, we're back for part
11:38
Speaker0: two with my good friend, Emmanuel Marsh, who is a professional counselor.
11:42
Speaker0: He specializes in coaching and consulting with pastors and church leaders.
11:48
Speaker0: He is the founder of Marsh Counseling, the author of Five Football Metaphors
11:54
Speaker0: for the Counseling Experience, which is linked on our website.
11:59
Speaker0: Everychurchflourishing.com.
12:00
Speaker0: And because he wrote that article, he's obviously a man after my own heart.
12:04
Speaker0: More importantly, he is a co-founder of the Alabama Center for Pastoral Resilience,
12:10
Speaker0: where he works personally with pastors and church leaders all across the country
12:14
Speaker0: and helps them recover from burnout, trauma, and other ministry difficulties.
12:19
Speaker0: And he is available to meet with you if you need help or consultation.
12:24
Speaker0: Their website is acpr.consulting. That's acpr.consulting.
12:32
Speaker0: Yes, it's not a dot com. It's dot consulting.
12:35
Speaker0: Acpr.consulting. And today, in part two of our interview with Emmanuel,
12:41
Speaker0: we're going to discuss his article about five key factors that lead to burnout
12:46
Speaker0: in church leaders and pastors.
12:49
Speaker0: Let's talk about some of these burnout factors that you've written an excellent
12:54
Speaker0: article that can be found on ACPR.consulting.
13:00
Speaker0: That's ACPR.consulting, five commonly overlooked factors in pastoral burnout.
13:08
Speaker0: So we're going to kind of go through these and talk about them a little bit.
13:11
Speaker0: And I've added one to the list and we'll have it in the show notes at our website,
13:15
Speaker0: everychurchflourishing.com, but you need to go read this article that Emmanuel wrote.
13:20
Speaker0: So the first one you got there talks about boundaries.
13:23
Speaker0: So tell us how weak or unenforced boundaries can contribute to leadership,
13:31
Speaker0: depression, leadership, burnout, leadership struggles.
13:36
Speaker1: Boundaries, and it's one of those terms that comes up a lot in popular media
13:40
Speaker1: and just everyday conversation, but we've kind of, we've kind of misused it.
13:44
Speaker1: It's become to mean what you tell other people, what they can't do with you,
13:48
Speaker1: but boundaries are for you.
13:50
Speaker1: There's a couple of ways to look at it. One, boundaries are where I end and
13:54
Speaker1: other people began and where my responsibility ends and other people's responsibility begins.
14:00
Speaker1: And so if you have boundaries and you don't enforce them, it kind of erodes at your soul.
14:06
Speaker1: Um, because you're in your heart or even you may have stated these boundaries
14:13
Speaker1: you say that these are your boundaries
14:15
Speaker1: but then you don't enforce them
14:18
Speaker1: let's say that you monday monday is my off day if it's not an emergency
14:23
Speaker1: Don't call pastor. Call somebody else. But Monday is a family day.
14:27
Speaker1: I will not pick up the phone unless it's an emergency.
14:30
Speaker1: Well, if you're answering the phone all the time on Monday for non-emergency
14:35
Speaker1: reasons, it's going to chip away at you.
14:38
Speaker1: James talks about the double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
14:41
Speaker1: When we say one thing and do another, or we claim one thing and act out another
14:47
Speaker1: thing, it destabilizes us because we kind of lie into ourselves.
14:51
Speaker1: These are my boundaries, but you, but if you don't enforce them,
14:55
Speaker1: so a lot of times I'll get too busy and my coach who I go to for guidance or
15:02
Speaker1: even my pastor, they'll say, well, who makes your schedule?
15:05
Speaker1: And that's their way of saying, well, you make your own schedule.
15:08
Speaker1: So if you're overworked or you, that means that you're not being true to yourself
15:12
Speaker1: and to what your boundaries are.
15:13
Speaker1: You got your principles, you have your time, you only get 24 hours in a day,
15:18
Speaker1: you have your schedule. Yeah.
15:20
Speaker1: Or even your values can be a
15:22
Speaker1: boundary. I remember that you wouldn't do weddings on Alabama home games.
15:28
Speaker1: Okay. If you, if you want me to marry you, then it needs to be on.
15:31
Speaker1: These are the dates that I'm willing to marry you.
15:33
Speaker0: There's some truth to that. Yep. Yep. Yeah.
15:35
Speaker1: I don't know if I'm airing dirty laundry.
15:38
Speaker0: No, no. I, so to be clear, I've turned down weddings of people.
15:42
Speaker0: I don't know that weren't church members for Alabama games.
15:47
Speaker0: Is that idolatry? Well, that'll be another episode. but I've definitely done that.
15:51
Speaker0: Now, if it was a church member, I have wedded people during Alabama games.
15:58
Speaker0: And that's just quite frankly, it's not persecution, but it's very hard.
16:02
Speaker1: But that was probably what Alabama, like San Jose State or something. It wasn't a big game.
16:07
Speaker0: It wasn't a big game. No, no, it was not. No.
16:10
Speaker1: Look, I remember when we got married, my wife and I, we said our date,
16:14
Speaker1: it was Auburn, Georgia, and sent the invitations out.
16:17
Speaker1: People were like, hey, you know this Auburn? Hey, I know it's Auburn, Georgia.
16:21
Speaker1: Weddings at 12, games at three. We're good. It's going to be a short ceremony.
16:26
Speaker1: You'll have plenty of time that people don't play about their football.
16:29
Speaker0: No, they don't.
16:31
Speaker1: But pretty soon, if you have all these boundaries and either you keep crossing
16:35
Speaker1: them or not enforcing them or other people keep crossing them,
16:38
Speaker1: pretty soon, you're either going to get really resentful, even though you're
16:42
Speaker1: contributing to it, or you're just going to be worn out.
16:45
Speaker1: So yeah, unenforced boundaries, weak boundaries, that'll get you.
16:50
Speaker0: So how do we know, and you brought up one that's definitely a gray area.
16:55
Speaker0: How do we know the difference between healthy boundaries and healthy?
17:01
Speaker0: Laziness or pickiness?
17:03
Speaker1: Well, I would say that a healthy boundary is one that comes out of one thought and principled.
17:10
Speaker1: It's not about the anxiety of the moment.
17:13
Speaker1: It's not designed to try to tell other people what to do.
17:17
Speaker1: It's designed as a place of, so for instance, let's say I've got a really big yard.
17:25
Speaker1: This kid wants to cut my grass, but he didn't really,
17:28
Speaker1: there's no fence, there's no boundary markers and so my yard is
17:32
Speaker1: right next to the neighbors and he's like you want me to cut all that that's
17:35
Speaker1: a lot of it's like well no i don't want you to cut all of that there there's
17:38
Speaker1: here's the boundary line this is all this is the part that you're responsible
17:42
Speaker1: for and they're responsible for their part you don't have to cut everything
17:46
Speaker1: you just cut within these well that frees them up like okay
17:51
Speaker1: Knowing what you're responsible for and what you're not responsible for and
17:55
Speaker1: being able to make decisions based on your principles and values, that's the key.
18:00
Speaker1: I don't see clients on Friday. That's a boundary.
18:03
Speaker1: I've had many people go, well, I'll pay you extra. I'll put,
18:06
Speaker1: no, I don't see clients on Friday.
18:08
Speaker1: Now, when I will see a client on Friday is if I mess up an appointment or I
18:14
Speaker1: need to reschedule, then I will make up an appointment on Friday if that's because
18:19
Speaker1: I'm the one who made it made the change.
18:21
Speaker1: And so I'll make it convenient for the client. But it's a boundary and only
18:26
Speaker1: violated with some thought and out of a principle.
18:30
Speaker1: And the principle is, hey, if I mess up something on my end or I need to reschedule,
18:35
Speaker1: then I'll open my calendar up a little bit more than if something gets screwed up on your end.
18:40
Speaker1: So that's the difference is where is it coming from?
18:43
Speaker0: Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. Well, let's talk about the emotional roller coaster,
18:48
Speaker0: kind of the dangers of us getting positive emotions and cheer from how other people see us.
18:57
Speaker0: Talk to us about that. Yeah.
19:00
Speaker1: And this one is, it's different for everybody. There's this idea that we leave
19:04
Speaker1: home with a certain amount of,
19:06
Speaker1: I don't know, emotional sensitivity to certain things or relational sensitivity,
19:10
Speaker1: maybe that we just leave home out of our, out of our relationship with our parents
19:14
Speaker1: and things are just, we didn't get enough of, or we got too much of,
19:18
Speaker1: and that we carry that into other relationships.
19:20
Speaker1: So for instance, if you're a person who needs a lot of attention,
19:26
Speaker1: To feel good about themselves. Well, that could lead to burnout in a couple of ways.
19:30
Speaker1: One, if you don't get attention by certain people, maybe you feel some kind
19:34
Speaker1: of way, maybe it kind of takes the wind out of your sails.
19:36
Speaker1: Maybe you don't let other people preach because that's your pulpit and you don't
19:40
Speaker1: want anybody else to get your attention and you just need to be in front of people all the time.
19:44
Speaker1: And that can weigh you out in general. Oh yeah. Or you need a lot of approval
19:49
Speaker1: and you need people to tell you good job, good sermon.
19:51
Speaker1: If you don't get a good job or good sermon, it kind of takes the wind out of
19:55
Speaker1: your sails and needing other people or even wanting other people to fill in
20:02
Speaker1: our emotional deficits.
20:04
Speaker1: That's a good way to get high on the mountain and then come crashing down right after that.
20:10
Speaker1: What if no one tells you a good sermon after you preach and you thought it was
20:13
Speaker1: really good, but nobody says great sermon.
20:15
Speaker1: How much do you need that? How do you measure what a good sermon is?
20:20
Speaker1: It goes back to these values and principles. You know, I measure a good sermon
20:24
Speaker1: by, was I faithful to the text?
20:26
Speaker1: Did I do the appropriate amount of study?
20:28
Speaker1: And that's pretty much it. Did I do something that I thought pleased God?
20:33
Speaker1: Now, I like affirmation. I like when people say, hey, that was really good.
20:38
Speaker1: That really blessed me. But I'm not going to be crushed if I don't get it.
20:42
Speaker1: And so the roller coaster is how much of these emotional sensitivities kind
20:48
Speaker1: of affect our ministries. And you kind of have to know how you're wired to really
20:53
Speaker1: understand that part of it.
20:54
Speaker1: But attention, there tend to be four major ones.
20:58
Speaker1: Attention, approval, meeting expectations.
21:02
Speaker1: And a sensitivity to distress, the distress of other people. Yeah.
21:08
Speaker1: And so you need to be the hero. And every time the phone rings or every time
21:13
Speaker1: you got to go, I have to do all the hospital visits. I can't let anybody else, that'll weigh you out.
21:18
Speaker1: So attention, approval, expectations, distress, those are four types of sensitivities
21:24
Speaker1: that'll get you on that emotional rollercoaster because when they're there,
21:27
Speaker1: your functioning is great. And when they're not there, you take a different functioning.
21:32
Speaker1: So how much of my functioning is a tied to other people's thinking of me?
21:38
Speaker0: Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing you're saying, I think pastors more than other
21:44
Speaker0: professions, based on just my anecdotal knowledge,
21:48
Speaker0: are maybe a little more wired to seek and need approval and affirmation.
21:55
Speaker0: And of course, the danger of being on an emotional rollercoaster like that and
21:59
Speaker0: an approval roller coaster is it'll wear you out.
22:02
Speaker0: If it bottoms out and you go through a season where you're not getting a lot
22:05
Speaker0: of approval, that can lead to burnout and quitting really quick.
22:10
Speaker0: But as you say, we're not in it to please people, the verse you quoted,
22:15
Speaker0: we're in it to please the Lord.
22:18
Speaker0: And that doesn't mean we're a jerk to people, church leaders,
22:21
Speaker0: but it does mean we have one focus.
22:24
Speaker0: I need to virtue signal for a minute here and just say, I've been using AI pretty
22:31
Speaker0: much ever since it came out because it's very interesting to me.
22:33
Speaker0: I don't use it for sermons. I don't even really use it to research sermons.
22:38
Speaker0: I do occasionally use it for school-related things. I don't use it to write
22:43
Speaker0: my emails or really anything I send out.
22:46
Speaker0: But I have had about 10 in two years.
22:51
Speaker0: And I know this is weird. That's why I'm saying I don't do it a lot because
22:55
Speaker0: I think it's too weird to do a lot. But I've had about maybe 10 is a lot, maybe eight.
23:00
Speaker0: Deep conversations with ChatGPT.
23:04
Speaker0: And each one of them, I've kind of walked away semi-impressed at what's going on.
23:12
Speaker0: And I recently, and I even was so struck by what it said that I sent it to David.
23:18
Speaker0: I recently had a conversation with ChatGPT about some of these issues kind of
23:23
Speaker0: getting ready for some of the upcoming podcasts.
23:26
Speaker0: And one of the things it said is that pastors need to watch out for,
23:32
Speaker0: quote, subtle ego attachment to fruitfulness.
23:37
Speaker0: And I thought about that. I was like, what does it mean by that?
23:41
Speaker0: So I just said, so what does that mean? What do you mean by that? This is what I said.
23:45
Speaker0: Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this is really insightful.
23:49
Speaker0: But I walked away a little bit stunned because this is a weakness I have,
23:54
Speaker0: and I would not have been able to articulate it nearly as clearly as ChatGBT did.
24:00
Speaker0: So I'm about to read it because it's very similar to what you're talking about.
24:04
Speaker0: It said, in ministry, subtle ego attachment to fruitfulness can become tricky
24:10
Speaker0: because fruitfulness is a good thing.
24:13
Speaker0: Wanting people to be helped, changed, saved, strengthened, or awakened is a holy desire.
24:19
Speaker0: But the ego, your ego, can quietly attach itself to that desire so that God's
24:27
Speaker0: glory and my need to matter get braided together.
24:32
Speaker0: Then, discouragement is not only about love for the mission,
24:36
Speaker0: it's also about a bruised self.
24:39
Speaker0: And he says, the healthy counterweight is something like, I'm called to faithfulness,
24:44
Speaker0: not omniscience about results.
24:46
Speaker0: Fruit matters, but I don't control most fruit.
24:50
Speaker0: Obscure faithfulness still counts. The value of my work is not proved by scale.
24:57
Speaker0: My identity is not effective servant, but beloved man in Christ.
25:03
Speaker0: And I'll just be honest with you, that's weird hearing that kind of thing from
25:06
Speaker0: an AI, and I don't know what to do with it, but I think it's mostly spot on.
25:10
Speaker1: Paul Tripp has a quote where he says that the kingdom of self does a great job
25:14
Speaker1: as masquerading as the kingdom of God.
25:17
Speaker0: Yes.
25:18
Speaker1: Yes, it does. And so it gets really hard to separate productivity because if
25:23
Speaker1: you're productive, it's like, look, I'm serving, but it's really,
25:27
Speaker1: I just need to stay busy to feel good about myself.
25:30
Speaker1: I've had similar revelations where I was actually, there was a point where I was just
25:36
Speaker1: I had said yes to too many things and all of those things came due at the same time.
25:40
Speaker1: And I was just like, I'll never do this to myself again. Once I get,
25:43
Speaker1: I can't wait to have nothing to do except for just in my normal.
25:47
Speaker1: And guess what? That time came where I didn't have much to do and I was miserable.
25:52
Speaker1: And I was like, okay, so there's something else going on here.
25:56
Speaker1: But a lot of times what we don't realize is that anxiety, we use work to calm
26:01
Speaker1: ourselves down. You know, I realized like, oh, okay, I thought I'd feel better
26:05
Speaker1: if I didn't have anything to do. And I actually felt worse.
26:08
Speaker1: It's like, I need a new project.
26:10
Speaker1: So it's really sneaky, especially in our culture where there's this kind of
26:15
Speaker1: idolatry of productivity.
26:18
Speaker0: Yep.
26:19
Speaker1: And like somebody asked you, how are you doing? Oh, man, I'm busy.
26:22
Speaker1: And I have to stop myself. And I'm not saying that to try to be impressed.
26:27
Speaker1: I'm saying that because I really am busy, but it's become like a flex.
26:30
Speaker0: Yes, it has become a flex. Number three, cut off an isolation as factors in burnout.
26:36
Speaker0: And we've kind of talked around this quite a bit, that lack of relationships
26:40
Speaker0: in genuine community is dangerous for anybody, especially pastors and church leaders.
26:46
Speaker0: So talk about that a little bit, Emmanuel, and in the middle of it,
26:49
Speaker0: answer the question that we've actually talked about on this podcast a couple of times here lately.
26:54
Speaker0: Can pastors find deep friendships in the church they pastor?
27:00
Speaker0: So let's just, in general, how can isolation lead to burnout?
27:05
Speaker1: Well, God created us to be communal creatures. It's not good for man to be alone.
27:11
Speaker1: The church is the gathering of the called out ones. And so we're social beings.
27:18
Speaker1: But what happens is when we don't feel particularly good or we get depressed
27:22
Speaker1: or we get anxious, one of the, it's not everybody's go-to move,
27:27
Speaker1: but one of the most popular is to isolate. Yeah.
27:30
Speaker1: And you may not physically isolate from others, but conversations are shallow.
27:35
Speaker1: How are you doing? I'm good. You don't open up to anyone. And so what happens
27:40
Speaker1: is all that stuff that you just are holding on to and you can't be healed, you know, confessors.
27:46
Speaker1: And I'm not even talking about sin, but you can say confess your sins one to
27:49
Speaker1: another so you may be healed.
27:51
Speaker1: There is something that is healing about talking to another person about what is going on with us.
27:57
Speaker1: That's just the way that God made us.
28:01
Speaker1: Isolation. Here's another way to think about it. There's less place for the
28:05
Speaker1: anxiety to go if we don't have anybody to spread it around to.
28:09
Speaker1: And so as social beings, social connections dilute our anxiety.
28:15
Speaker1: And so the more close connections we have, the less anxious we typically are.
28:21
Speaker1: And so, for instance, if somebody comes into my office and they're just the
28:25
Speaker1: most anxious person I've ever seen, I already know that that person is probably
28:30
Speaker1: not well-connected, not in community,
28:34
Speaker1: probably has a lot of cutoff of people they stop talking to in their family
28:38
Speaker1: or friends or in their church.
28:41
Speaker1: Because the anxiety has nowhere to go. You just have to hold on to it.
28:46
Speaker1: And that goes the same for grief, negative emotion, or something that we experience.
28:51
Speaker1: If they didn't have anywhere to go, just sit with it. And you can't metabolize it.
28:56
Speaker1: You can't digest it. You can't process it as well as you could if you had other
29:01
Speaker1: people who were bearing that burden with you.
29:03
Speaker0: Yeah, that's a great observation that when we're alone, that anxiety has nowhere
29:10
Speaker0: to go. And often it won't just kind of naturally dissipate.
29:15
Speaker0: We're called to bear one another's burdens. And I think that might be one of
29:19
Speaker0: our early warning signs that you're headed for burnout is if you are isolating yourself just too much.
29:28
Speaker0: I can think of a few times. It's not happened a lot.
29:31
Speaker0: I can think of a few times after I preached a message or taught or whatever,
29:34
Speaker0: that either I felt like that was such a clunker or I was just drained from doing it.
29:43
Speaker0: I sort of put everything I had into it. I remember one time at Agape,
29:47
Speaker0: I got through preaching.
29:48
Speaker0: I just found a dark room upstairs, no lights on, and I just sat in the corner
29:52
Speaker0: for about 15 or 20 minutes.
29:54
Speaker0: I don't know that that's unhealthy.
29:57
Speaker0: Jesus had the habit of withdrawing to lonely places for a time, a day, a night.
30:04
Speaker0: But when we leaders and we people in the body of Christ just in general kind
30:10
Speaker0: of make that our steady state habit, we only fellowship the absolute minimum we possibly can.
30:17
Speaker0: Otherwise, we're isolating ourselves.
30:19
Speaker0: We're just going to build up dangerous amounts of pressure, anxiety, pain.
30:25
Speaker0: I think that's a great observation that when you see somebody that's struggling
30:29
Speaker0: with a lot of that stuff as a, as a physician kind of counselor,
30:34
Speaker0: you know, Hey, this is, this is probably rooted in isolation.
30:38
Speaker1: Yeah, Jesus, you know, he didn't have a congregation per se,
30:42
Speaker1: but he had the 70 disciples and then he had the 12 and then he had the three.
30:47
Speaker1: And he let the three in on stuff that the 12, the rest of the 12 didn't know.
30:53
Speaker1: And the 12 got, they got more knowledge in the 70.
30:57
Speaker1: And so I think that's a good model that, you know, can you have friends in the church?
31:02
Speaker1: I think so. but it will probably be few, and they'll probably have to be very
31:06
Speaker1: mature, trusted people.
31:09
Speaker1: I don't know that you can do it with everybody. The 70 didn't get access to Jesus like the 12 did.
31:14
Speaker0: Yeah, so that's a great point. So Jesus himself modeled this idea of having
31:20
Speaker0: an inner circle, which I think in a dangerous way could turn into a click,
31:25
Speaker0: but that's not what was going on there.
31:27
Speaker0: I think what was going on there is a recognition that we share our deepest things
31:33
Speaker0: with a small amount of people, a non-zero amount of people, but a small amount of people.
31:40
Speaker0: And as you say, Jesus modeled that for us.
31:43
Speaker1: The benefit of being in the church, the benefit of having connections,
31:47
Speaker1: maybe not super deep, but more than shallow, is that if something comes up,
31:53
Speaker1: there may be another enough people in that congregation to be,
31:57
Speaker1: well, you know, that didn't sound like the chase I know. I don't believe that's true.
32:00
Speaker1: So if the rumor gets spread or, or you make a decision that people don't agree
32:04
Speaker1: with or like, yeah, I know that decision is, but it's chase.
32:09
Speaker1: I, you know, that's not the chase. I know he really wants what's best for this
32:12
Speaker1: church. And he's not just throwing ideas out there to see where it sticks.
32:17
Speaker1: And so those people become your allies in the congregation because they know
32:22
Speaker1: you well enough so if they hear something, that doesn't sound like Chase.
32:27
Speaker1: So it could be, if you're playing the long game, that could be a benefit because
32:31
Speaker1: you have a lot of people who know you well enough to kind of
32:35
Speaker1: go to bat for you in rooms that you aren't in. Great point.
32:40
Speaker0: Every pastor should play the long game. I don't think we do enough,
32:44
Speaker0: but there's so many studies about how the more effective ministry happens when
32:49
Speaker0: you've been somewhere for a long time.
32:51
Speaker0: People can't get to know you in two or three years.
32:54
Speaker0: Okay. Let's talk about over-functioning for others as a factor in burnout.
33:00
Speaker0: What is over-functioning and how does it lead to burnout?
33:03
Speaker1: Yeah. Over-functioning is a The counseling word, it's one side of a reciprocal
33:09
Speaker1: relationship, and it is when we get anxious or stressed or worked up about something,
33:17
Speaker1: some of us will take on more responsibility for others than we should.
33:23
Speaker1: And the reciprocal nature is that if we're over-functioning,
33:27
Speaker1: that means somebody is taking on less responsibility for themselves.
33:31
Speaker1: A basic example is, so I know that I'm stressed when I get really directive
33:36
Speaker1: with my wife on things that she already knows how to do.
33:39
Speaker1: About a month ago, I caught myself, she's making my daughter lunch and my daughter
33:43
Speaker1: wanted a grilled cheese sandwich.
33:45
Speaker1: And I come into the kitchen and I'm like trying to tell her how to make a grilled cheese sandwich.
33:51
Speaker1: And I'm like, my wife's a confident, educated woman.
33:55
Speaker1: She can figure out where the butter goes and where the cheese goes and the grilled
33:58
Speaker1: cheese. But I found myself trying to, that's not how you, and I was like,
34:01
Speaker1: oh, I must be really anxious right now. I was about to tell you how to make
34:04
Speaker1: a grilled cheese sandwich.
34:06
Speaker1: But we need control to feel, to calm down. And the other person,
34:11
Speaker1: they get to calm down by having less control.
34:14
Speaker1: Pastors are uniquely susceptible to this because one, as you pointed out early,
34:20
Speaker1: a large percentage of pastors already are kind of people pleasers.
34:24
Speaker1: Just wired. They want people to think well of them. And so you just do too much.
34:30
Speaker1: There's a personality part of it too. Like I'm kind of a know-it-all.
34:34
Speaker1: Like if you're not good at anything but being smart, which is with me,
34:38
Speaker1: I wasn't athletic. I didn't really have any, any, I didn't play an instrument.
34:42
Speaker1: I didn't have any, you know, marketable talents. I was just smart.
34:46
Speaker1: And the gift of that is you're smart, but the curse of that is you got to let
34:49
Speaker1: everybody know how smart you are. And so you get really comfortable thinking
34:53
Speaker1: that you know everything or telling people what they should do,
34:56
Speaker1: or you should try this, you should do this.
34:59
Speaker1: And with pastors, people come to pastors for their wisdom.
35:02
Speaker1: And that part of the job is dispensing wisdom. So it's not that you shouldn't do that, but.
35:09
Speaker0: You shouldn't do it quickly.
35:10
Speaker1: And so ask questions. I don't know. What have you tried before?
35:15
Speaker1: Who else is worried about this? What happened when you tried to solve it on your own?
35:20
Speaker1: Who else do you know who might be a resource to you in this?
35:23
Speaker1: Instead of just jumping in all the time and coming to the rescue,
35:28
Speaker1: the more you put on the cape, you know, the more you're just going to wear yourself out.
35:33
Speaker1: Because one, you're training your congregation. congregation,
35:36
Speaker1: you're training your congregation to need you more than they biblically should.
35:41
Speaker0: And to need you more than they need Jesus. Yeah. Which is a huge danger.
35:46
Speaker1: Helping people find their strength, helping people work out their own theology.
35:51
Speaker1: Well, what's your thing? You know,
35:52
Speaker1: somebody comes to you, asks you a Bible question, like, well, have you?
35:55
Speaker1: You could answer it, which is nothing wrong with that. But you could also say,
35:58
Speaker1: well, go read, you know, Matthew 12 and tell me what you think about it.
36:04
Speaker1: Let's, you know, let's meet for coffee and you tell me what you,
36:07
Speaker1: you know, did you find your answer there?
36:10
Speaker1: But wanting people where to find the answer, finally help people use their own
36:14
Speaker1: resources instead of just jumping in to save everyone.
36:18
Speaker0: Teaching people how to fish rather than giving them a fish every time they come and ask for one.
36:23
Speaker1: Yeah, yeah. Because.
36:25
Speaker1: The reason we get so sucked in is because we get anxious for people.
36:30
Speaker1: We worry about them. And so to calm ourselves down, this is what it really comes down to.
36:35
Speaker1: I'm going to calm myself down by telling you the answer or make myself feel
36:40
Speaker1: good by giving you the answer or being way too available, answering the phone every time you call.
36:47
Speaker1: And that's going to differ about pastors. Some pastors are very relatable and
36:52
Speaker1: very available, and it doesn't bother them at all. I'm an introvert.
36:56
Speaker1: I need some time to recharge.
36:59
Speaker1: I can't be that available. I just couldn't do it and survive.
37:07
Speaker1: Overfunctioning is just taking on too much responsibility from an anxious place. Yeah.
37:12
Speaker1: Now, Jesus, he took on a responsibility for our sins, but it wasn't from an
37:18
Speaker1: anxious place. It was a principled place, you know?
37:23
Speaker1: He knew what he was doing. He thought about it. He prayed about it. He sweat blood about it.
37:28
Speaker1: And he made a decision. That's not what we do.
37:32
Speaker1: For us, it's usually coming out of our own worry or anxiety or need to feel
37:36
Speaker1: a certain way or be seen a certain way that we tend to over-function.
37:40
Speaker1: And I was having my daughter. She had a big homework assignment.
37:44
Speaker1: And she wants me to give her answers. And I'm like, nope, I don't,
37:48
Speaker1: you know. Read this, you know?
37:51
Speaker1: She's like, well, how should I start this paper? Like, I'm not telling you. What do you want to say?
37:56
Speaker1: And making her, you're like, you're 10. You can come up with your own sentences.
38:01
Speaker1: But making her struggle and do things herself, which I've done from a young
38:06
Speaker1: age, instead of me worried about her grade.
38:11
Speaker1: And I see some parents do when I was a teacher, parents who do that.
38:16
Speaker1: Your mother did this homework. You don't even know this word,
38:19
Speaker1: you know, because they're so anxious about the grade they jump in.
38:23
Speaker1: And so just seeing what people are capable of before you jump in. Jesus would do this.
38:29
Speaker1: Somebody will come up to them and they'll quote a Bible verse or how do you read it?
38:34
Speaker0: How do you read it? Yeah, exactly.
38:35
Speaker1: Yeah. Just see what people are capable of before you jump in, you know.
38:40
Speaker0: There's a lot of wisdom there. That's great. That's great.
38:42
Speaker1: Right.
38:43
Speaker0: That was worth the cost of listening to the whole podcast.
38:47
Speaker0: All right. So in the last couple of minutes we have left, I'm going to throw
38:49
Speaker0: out one that's not in your article, but I think is also could be a potential factor in burnout.
38:56
Speaker0: And you can tell me what you think about it right now. A lot of people are talking
38:59
Speaker0: about processed foods and the dangers of processed foods. They give you pleasure,
39:07
Speaker0: they give you calories, but they don't give you health.
39:10
Speaker0: And so I think there's some ways where pastors and church leaders right now
39:16
Speaker0: are finding community and scratching the itch of isolation while not getting
39:24
Speaker0: the health of real godly community.
39:27
Speaker0: And I think part of that is online groups like Facebook groups.
39:32
Speaker0: I'm part of several groups for pastors.
39:35
Speaker0: And I know some people find really good, solid community groups.
39:40
Speaker1: Ish in some of those groups,
39:42
Speaker0: But it's not real. I mean, I'm not saying it's not helpful. I've been part of those groups for years.
39:47
Speaker0: Reddit groups, huge kind of connection point for people, but not necessarily
39:54
Speaker0: healthy like real food and something I referred to earlier.
39:59
Speaker0: I know a lot of people are having these deep extended daily chats with chat
40:06
Speaker0: GPT or Gemini or Anthropics Claude,
40:10
Speaker0: and they're coming away with their need for connection seemingly met.
40:16
Speaker0: But I think if you are a leader or a pastor and you're investing a lot of time
40:22
Speaker0: in those kind of relationships rather than real relationships, mostly face-to-face,
40:29
Speaker0: could be Zoom, could be, you know,
40:32
Speaker0: but as long as it's, you're talking to a real person, I think that's much healthier.
40:38
Speaker0: And I think investing too much in online community could be the equivalent of
40:44
Speaker0: eating too much processed food. What do you think?
40:47
Speaker1: Yeah, there's definitely something to that. I'm in a couple of Facebook groups
40:51
Speaker1: for counselors, uh, myself and, you know, I use it as a tool.
40:55
Speaker1: It's a good place to get some resources and referrals.
40:59
Speaker1: But if you're using that as your social life, I think that's a poor substitute for it.
41:05
Speaker1: One of the things we do, we do several things at the center.
41:08
Speaker1: We do one-on-one stuff. We do workshops for churches.
41:12
Speaker1: The kind of big tentpole thing is our cohort. There's nine months.
41:17
Speaker1: We meet once a month for eight out of those nine months.
41:21
Speaker1: Where pastors are in a room for the whole day, eight hours. and there's lecture,
41:26
Speaker1: there's conversation, there's some spiritual formation. There's a whole bunch
41:31
Speaker1: of stuff going on in those eight hours.
41:33
Speaker1: And the pastors, that's one of their, they look forward to it.
41:36
Speaker1: It's like, I don't get to be in a room with people and talk this freely and
41:41
Speaker1: this openly, especially with other pastors who are going through similar things
41:46
Speaker1: or have similar ideas or even different ideas.
41:49
Speaker1: That's the highlight of it, the community aspect of it. and we've been asked,
41:54
Speaker1: Hey, could you do one of these online?
41:57
Speaker1: We've thought about it and we may end up doing it online, but right now I think is incarnation.
42:03
Speaker1: You know, there's something about being in the flesh that you lose digitally.
42:10
Speaker1: You just like, this is better than nothing talking on zoom.
42:13
Speaker1: Yes. You know, cause you're, you're a real person at least somebody I know and
42:17
Speaker1: I can see your face, but there's something about incarnation that is,
42:22
Speaker1: different than online friendships or online interactions that you just,
42:27
Speaker0: You just can't replicate it.
42:29
Speaker1: It's just God made, made us that way. So it's a tool.
42:36
Speaker1: I'll be curious, you know, if somebody is spending all the time on that,
42:39
Speaker1: are there other relationships that they're shying away from? Yeah.
42:42
Speaker1: Because it is a lot easier to, to be online than it is to talk to your wife.
42:48
Speaker0: Can be absolutely.
42:49
Speaker1: Talk to a particular person in your congregation and so is that a substitute
42:55
Speaker1: or that avoidance of a relationship in another area
42:58
Speaker0: Well, as we finish this up, I know you guys do, as you say, the in-person gatherings
43:06
Speaker0: of pastors, but you also do consulting in person and online.
43:11
Speaker0: So real quick, remind everybody of your website, how they can get in touch with you.
43:16
Speaker0: Some pastors might be interested in any of the services you offer.
43:20
Speaker0: So let us know how we can reach the ACPR and Emanuel Marsh.
43:26
Speaker1: Www.acpr.consulting.com was way too expensive. So we just
43:32
Speaker0: Do a little.
43:33
Speaker1: Consulting and Alabama's in the name, but we've got clients that we work with
43:39
Speaker1: all over the place, New York, California, Florida, Arkansas, Georgia.
43:45
Speaker1: And so the cohort is local, but everything else, you know, we'll travel to some
43:51
Speaker1: places and do some travel for some workshops and things like that.
43:54
Speaker1: And you can reach me at Emanuel at acpr.consulting, but everything's contacts
44:01
Speaker1: on the website as well. Okay.
44:02
Speaker0: Well, all of that will be in the show notes for the show, links to the ACPR
44:07
Speaker0: website and Emanuel's contact information.
44:10
Speaker0: Hey man, this has been an awesome conversation. I'm not just saying that.
44:15
Speaker0: It's been very good for me.
44:17
Speaker0: It's been great to see you. I appreciate your wisdom.
44:20
Speaker0: I feel like if somebody's going to listen to this whole episode,
44:22
Speaker0: they are going to get a ton of healthy, really wise counsel.
44:28
Speaker0: And I appreciate you giving us a little over an hour of your time to record and to share, man.
44:35
Speaker0: Thank you so much. And may the Lord bless the ministry of the ACPR.
44:40
Speaker1: I appreciate it, man. Anytime you want me to come on, I'm happy to talk.
44:44
Speaker0: Well, we'll do it again. Absolutely. And I can't wait till we do.
44:47
Speaker1: All right. Good luck. And I do listen to the podcast, by the way. So good luck on the...
44:52
Speaker1: The podcast. Well, thanks, man.
44:54
Speaker0: I appreciate you listening. Okay. I tell you what, I loved that interview.
44:59
Speaker0: Right after I was done, I just sat back and felt like that was one of my favorite
45:04
Speaker0: interviews that we've done on this show.
45:07
Speaker0: And look, I was like batting practice pitcher throwing 50 mile per hour fastballs
45:13
Speaker0: to Mike Judge or whatever and watching him blast it out of the park.
45:16
Speaker0: I really thought Emmanuel did a fantastic job. And if you really paid attention
45:21
Speaker0: to that, I think you will be edified.
45:24
Speaker0: Somehow, someway, we got a package in the mail here at the Every Church Flourishing
45:30
Speaker0: Podcast Studios. It was a 12-pack of soda.
45:32
Speaker0: But interestingly enough, it did not come in a rectangular package.
45:36
Speaker0: It came in a square package because that 12-pack of sodas was broken right in
45:41
Speaker0: half and folded back on itself and sent in a box to the studios with no return
45:47
Speaker0: address, no name, or anything like that.
45:50
Speaker0: And when we opened it, we found a case of Inca-Cola Golden Cola.
45:55
Speaker0: And if you're not familiar with Inca-Cola, and I wasn't either,
45:59
Speaker0: it is a very popular Peruvian, as in from Peru, soft drink.
46:04
Speaker0: It's yellow in color, which is pretty interesting.
46:07
Speaker0: It's flavor that is supposedly a mixture of cream soda and bubble gum.
46:12
Speaker0: And like I said at the beginning of the show, it has lemon verbena as a key
46:16
Speaker0: ingredient. and lemon verbena is some sort of green leafy lemongrass kind of tasting thing.
46:23
Speaker0: So I've never had this before. I have been in Lima, Peru, and that was a fantastic
46:28
Speaker0: trip. I went there on a mission trip years ago.
46:30
Speaker0: Loved the place, loved the people, loved that post-em kind of deal they have
46:35
Speaker0: there that you mix with milk.
46:37
Speaker0: Man, that was good. I don't even know what it was, but it was one of the first
46:40
Speaker0: times in my life I ever enjoyed something like a coffee beverage. Well,
46:44
Speaker0: We're going to try out Inca Cola and see if it is the kind of thing you should rush out and buy.
46:52
Speaker0: If you're not watching the video, you don't see it, but it's got a great can. It's a beautiful can.
46:55
Speaker0: It's gold and blue and it's got white lettering. It's just really sharply designed.
47:01
Speaker0: I don't even know where you would buy this stuff, but somebody bought it and
47:04
Speaker0: somebody sent it to us. So let's give it a shot.
47:07
Speaker0: Here we go. My first ever taste and sip and smell of Inca Cola.
47:12
Speaker0: Okay, I definitely smell the bubble gum. You can smell it as soon as you open it.
47:17
Speaker0: Kind of got a fresh, crispy sort of scent. It looks good. You can tell it's very, very yellow.
47:24
Speaker0: Mm, okay, I can't wait to try this. I've been waiting for a whole week. Here we go.
47:28
Speaker0: Oh, mm, that is so good. This is definitely the best beverage we've tried on the show.
47:34
Speaker0: Part of it is, of course, it's full sugar.
47:37
Speaker0: It's got 140 calories for the can, So that's not exactly a beverage for somebody
47:42
Speaker0: watching the old belly, but it's so good I'm going to have another sip.
47:47
Speaker1: That is tasty.
47:49
Speaker0: This is one of the best sodas I've ever had. And I'm not just saying that.
47:53
Speaker0: Wow, wow. This is a treat. It is so sweet. It's so good.
47:58
Speaker0: It definitely has, whoever decided to describe it as a mixture between bubblegum
48:02
Speaker0: and cream soda, they nailed it.
48:05
Speaker0: I cannot taste the lemon verbena, whatever that is.
48:09
Speaker0: I can't taste the lemon verbena, but I was kind of hoping for a little bit of
48:13
Speaker0: a lemon taste, but whatever this combination is, and it's a very unique one.
48:17
Speaker0: This is, I'm a man who's had a lot of American sodas.
48:20
Speaker0: I've not had a soda that really stacks up to this at all.
48:24
Speaker0: The Chupa Chups soda we tried early on in the run of the show is similar,
48:28
Speaker0: but this is much more of a robustly flavored soda.
48:33
Speaker0: This thing is not subtle. It's not mild.
48:37
Speaker0: It's a strong, tasty, it's not thick, but the mouthfeel and the kind of the
48:44
Speaker0: explosion of flavor gives you a little bit of a thick feeling to it. It's a strong soda.
48:50
Speaker0: And, you know, when you get older, your taste buds kind of die.
48:53
Speaker0: And I'm not as young as I used to be. I appreciate things that taste strong. This is good.
48:58
Speaker0: Okay. I think, and I hate to do this without Pastor Chris Cole present.
49:03
Speaker0: It almost seems blasphemous to do so. But I think I'm going to reward this.
49:07
Speaker0: The first five Spurgeon soda review in the history of Every Church Flourishing.
49:14
Speaker0: This is literally one of the best sodas I've ever tasted. I love Mountain Dew.
49:19
Speaker0: I grew up on Mountain Dew. This is like a fruitier, sparklier Mountain Dew,
49:24
Speaker0: and it really puts me in the mood to talk about the resurrection in Easter because
49:30
Speaker0: that is a spring beverage if there ever was one.
49:33
Speaker0: So what are some of the best places for you to go if you're in the mood to think
49:38
Speaker0: about the Resurrection Day and Easter.
49:40
Speaker0: As we talked about at the beginning of the show, it's crucial for Christians to know how to talk about.
49:45
Speaker0: The resurrection and to give reasons for the hope that we have and the belief
49:50
Speaker0: that we have that the resurrection really happened.
49:52
Speaker0: And so what I want to do today in closing out the show is I want to give you
49:55
Speaker0: eight Instagram or YouTube channels that are full of videos that help you understand
50:02
Speaker0: the resurrection and answer questions and objections to Christianity.
50:07
Speaker0: Now, not all of these channels are specifically focused on the resurrection.
50:12
Speaker0: Some, like the first one, are more focused on the reliability of the Bible,
50:16
Speaker0: but they all talk about the resurrection in important ways and they will all
50:20
Speaker0: equip you to talk to other people about the resurrection in important ways.
50:24
Speaker0: We start off with Wesley Huff. Wes Huff, the Canadian apologetics guy who blew
50:31
Speaker0: up last year when he appeared on Joe Rogan.
50:34
Speaker0: He is a PhD candidate and a genuine scholar of the Bible.
50:40
Speaker0: He focuses heavily on Christian history and the reliability of the Bible and
50:45
Speaker0: really on the manuscript tradition and how we got the Bible and answering questions
50:50
Speaker0: about all of that and dispelling some of the myths that are out there about
50:54
Speaker0: the transmission of the Bible and the supposed errors and all that kind of stuff.
50:58
Speaker0: And he is just a great combination of scholarly and friendly and engaging.
51:05
Speaker0: And you will learn a lot by watching Wes Huff's channel. and you'll kind of
51:11
Speaker0: get the idea that he's just a super nice guy.
51:13
Speaker0: I've never met Wes Huff, but if it turned out he was just a great,
51:17
Speaker0: super awesome, nice guy on camera and kind of a goober off camera,
51:20
Speaker0: I would be shocked and probably cry.
51:22
Speaker0: But I think the chances of that are about 99.99% against. He just seems like a great guy. Number two.
51:29
Speaker1: I am a mystery buff.
51:31
Speaker0: I love Sherlock Holmes and true crime and fictional crime, and I can't get enough of the stuff.
51:36
Speaker0: And I really am drawn, therefore, to our guy, J.
51:41
Speaker0: Warner Wallace of Cold Case Christianity on YouTube.
51:45
Speaker0: He is an author. He was an atheist and a seasoned cold case homicide detective from California.
51:52
Speaker0: He, on a whim, maybe on invitation of a friend, turned his detective case skills
51:57
Speaker0: towards determining the reliability
51:59
Speaker0: of the Bible and the truthfulness of its testimony about Jesus.
52:05
Speaker0: And he ended up having really explored the Bible with a detective's eye,
52:10
Speaker0: becoming a strong believer, a strong Christian, and a strong witness for the resurrection of Jesus.
52:16
Speaker0: He's written several books that are really good. And his YouTube channel,
52:19
Speaker0: which he runs with his son, Jimmy Wallace, who is also a detective,
52:23
Speaker0: is a fantastic resource to help you.
52:27
Speaker0: Understand why we believe Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead,
52:31
Speaker0: why we believe the Bible is reliable, and it will help you answer a lot of questions
52:36
Speaker0: you have about the faith.
52:37
Speaker0: Number three, another very similar channel, and sometimes these guys alternate
52:41
Speaker0: with each other and are guests on each other's show.
52:44
Speaker0: Dr. Sean McDowell is the son of Josh McDowell, a very famous apologist and author.
52:51
Speaker0: And Dr. Sean McDowell is a professor at Biola University in the Talbot School of Theology.
52:56
Speaker0: He has had a YouTube channel for years. He does a lot of debates.
53:00
Speaker0: He does a lot of great videos and interviews and does just a fantastic job.
53:05
Speaker0: Not only does he discuss apologetics, but he also does a lot of youth forward things.
53:10
Speaker0: It kind of helps them walk through questions of morality and gender and contemporary culture.
53:14
Speaker0: And he seems like a really nice guy and is very gracious, and really popular
53:20
Speaker0: with millennials, Generation Z, and even younger people.
53:24
Speaker0: Now, Coley Stevens is number four. You might not be as aware of Coley Stevens as some of the others.
53:29
Speaker0: Coley Stevens is a guy I know from Instagram. I mean, I don't know him personally,
53:33
Speaker0: but I just kind of stumbled on him one day a year or two ago,
53:36
Speaker0: and he does some great apologetics work.
53:40
Speaker0: Often, he will have a few minutes clip of somebody who is attacking Christianity
53:45
Speaker0: or speaking up in favor of Islam or something like that, and he'll let them
53:48
Speaker0: speak for a while, then he'll answer the issues they raise.
53:52
Speaker0: And he is the opposite of a hype man or the opposite of an edgelord.
53:59
Speaker0: He's reasoned and collected and calm and reasonable and doesn't go for the throat.
54:05
Speaker0: And he's not like this big kind of bombastic name-calling kind of jerk who is quick to pick a fight.
54:13
Speaker0: He's very measured and reasonable for a young guy. He kind of looks like my son.
54:17
Speaker0: That's a bonus for him. And he just does a great job of calmly,
54:23
Speaker0: and I'm not saying boringly,
54:25
Speaker0: calmly but powerfully answering objections to Christianity and also claims of
54:31
Speaker0: other religions that are not based on fact.
54:34
Speaker0: Similarly, Ticoli is a name you might know more familiar, be more familiar with.
54:39
Speaker0: Tim Barnett, who is known as Mr.
54:41
Speaker0: B because he used to be a teacher. He's on the Red Pin Logic channel on YouTube.
54:46
Speaker0: He works with Stand to Reason, which is one of the best training organizations
54:51
Speaker0: for those who have work in apologetics and things like that.
54:55
Speaker0: Ten, on his Red Pin Logic page, he dismantles arguments and attacks of skeptics
55:02
Speaker0: on Christianity, and he kind of grades them like a teacher would.
55:06
Speaker0: He corrects their faulty logic and bad assumptions with really not like a jerk
55:12
Speaker0: by any means, but a very gracious, even-handed tone.
55:15
Speaker0: He's confident, but he's not overbearing. And he does it in a really peaceful,
55:20
Speaker0: thoughtful kind of manner.
55:22
Speaker0: And every time you watch one of Mr. B's videos, you're going to learn something.
55:26
Speaker0: Number six, Mike Lucono. We talked about him on the last episode.
55:29
Speaker0: He is a professor of New Testament studies at Houston Christian Universities,
55:33
Speaker0: the founder of the Risen Jesus Ministry.
55:36
Speaker0: He was mentored by expert on the resurrection, Dr.
55:39
Speaker0: Gary Habermas, who also taught me apologetics, although he didn't mentor me.
55:44
Speaker0: That would be kind of cool. But he was a great teacher of I've had.
55:47
Speaker0: And Mike Lacona's channel on YouTube features a lot of debates and comments
55:51
Speaker0: and content about the resurrection, the reliability of the New Testament.
55:55
Speaker0: And he is a very smart, clever guy. And he's a good dude that I have actually
56:01
Speaker0: sat down and had lunch with, which makes me kind of famous, too. OK, maybe it doesn't.
56:06
Speaker0: I got the feeling spending a weekend with him when he came and spoke at our
56:09
Speaker0: church that he was a great guy.
56:11
Speaker0: Number seven, Elisa Childers. Now, and it could be Childers too because I've
56:15
Speaker0: read more of her stuff than I've watched her content.
56:17
Speaker0: But she used to be a member of the Christian music group Zoe Girl that my daughters
56:23
Speaker0: loved when they were growing up.
56:25
Speaker0: Now she is no longer part of a team Christian boppy kind of music group.
56:31
Speaker0: She does hardcore apologetics. She writes some great books and great articles,
56:36
Speaker0: and her channel on YouTube really interacts with distinguishing between progressive
56:42
Speaker0: Christianity and biblical Christianity, and she answers a lot of questions about
56:47
Speaker0: the faith and does a really, really good, solid job of it.
56:50
Speaker0: Very similarly, although whereas Elisa Childers, Childers, whatever,
56:55
Speaker0: is aimed at more of an adult audience, Mama Bear Apologetics,
56:59
Speaker0: founded by Hilary Morgan Ferrer, does a good job of equipping parents and equipping
57:04
Speaker0: young people to think about the Bible in a strong way to love the word and to
57:10
Speaker0: be able to defend the word and answer questions about its reliability.
57:15
Speaker0: So you can check out all eight of those pages by coming to our website.
57:21
Speaker0: I will have them listed out with links for this week's episode.
57:25
Speaker0: I would encourage you to go watch videos on all of them.
57:28
Speaker0: You can also just basically look up their names on Instagram or YouTube.
57:31
Speaker0: All of them have a great presence on both
57:34
Speaker0: Instagram and YouTube, probably TikTok too, but I'm too old to mess around with TikTok.
57:38
Speaker0: So, hey, thanks for tuning in. I think it's been a great episode.
57:41
Speaker0: I think you learned an awful lot.
57:43
Speaker0: Emmanuel was a great guest and we plan on having him back very soon. He's eager to come back.
57:50
Speaker0: We're eager to have him on again. Thanks for listening.
57:53
Speaker0: Please do, if you get a chance, leave a review for the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
57:59
Speaker0: Tell somebody about the show, church leader, pastor, whatever,
58:02
Speaker0: invite them to subscribe and listen in.
58:05
Speaker0: And we will see you next week with a series of episodes hosted by myself and Dr. Stewart.
58:12
Speaker0: I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Thanks for tuning in.
58:15
Speaker0: Good day to you and Godspeed.