Latest / Adventure Sports Podcast / Ep. 1218: Creating the US Perimeter Trail with Rue McKenrick

Transcript

Ep. 1218: Creating the US Perimeter Trail with Rue McKenrick · Adventure Sports Podcast

0:08
[SPEAKER_00]: your listening to the Adventure Sports podcast.
0:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for adventuring with us as we discover what incredible athletes and outdoor enthusiasts are doing all over the world.
0:37
[SPEAKER_02]: the American perimeter trail, which goes around the outside edge of the United States all the way around.
0:45
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an amazing thing that they're putting together and Ruth was actually already hyped this.
0:51
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we're going to get into what that's all about.
0:55
[SPEAKER_02]: AmericanPrimiterTrail.org is where you can learn more.
0:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Rue also has four books out to describe the routes and help you with the trail.
1:03
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the AmericanPrimiterTrail.
1:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Name of the book pretty easy to remember.
1:07
[SPEAKER_02]: There are four books in total.
1:09
[SPEAKER_02]: The first one is published.
1:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And the second one will be published very, very soon if it's not published by the time that this episode hits.
1:17
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is cool.
1:20
[SPEAKER_02]: Nutrile
1:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Big big trail, but the founder himself threw welcome to the program.
1:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thank you so very much for having me, Kurt.
1:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a pleasure to be here.
1:31
[SPEAKER_02]: I've talked to a lot of three hikers, and I love talking to three hikers, because I just think it's such an amazing and inspirational thing to do to hike these big trails.
1:41
[SPEAKER_02]: But I had never heard of the American perimeter trail.
1:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Now that might be because my head was in the sand, I don't know, but tell us what the American perimeter trail is.
1:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So the American perimeter trail is the concept behind it is to roughly trace the perimeter of the United States.
2:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Now it is not specifically on the perimeter that would be a titles own and we don't have to necessarily hiker camp and title areas or titles zones.
2:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's basically like the concept is that it's roughly tracing the
2:17
[SPEAKER_01]: the perimeter of the lower 48.
2:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, at some times, you will find a very close to the edge and other times it could be a lot further inland.
2:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a concept that I came up with over 10 years ago.
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that time, I was already a distance backpacker.
2:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had already cut my teeth on a lot of trails around the country and some overseas travel.
2:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew that this was my idea was that I wanted to create a conservation corridor, not necessarily a trail.
2:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But because of the work that I had done in the conservation field and also with other trail organizations in the past, I knew a really great way to create a conservation corridor or a conservation easement or even conservation for a stream or a national scenic river
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: that you protected in a way that it also gives access for it to be used by humans.
3:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And so my original concept is just a conservation corridor and then with my background and outdoor recreation and long distance backpacking, I put a trail right in the middle of it so that I could help to organize and rally people around the idea of specifically
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: creating a natural wildland area that could be into the public sector, and then for posterity sake, my main motivation for this is, as a young man, I was very lucky, a very blessed to have hiked all of these long trails in our country.
4:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that sometimes when I meet backpackers and they talk with me and they say, you never think about how did these long trails get here?
4:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that wasn't the case for me.
4:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I was really terribly fascinated from the gecko, as who's like out involved with trails, whether it be volunteering, or whether it was my own recreational experiences.
4:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to know everything about it.
4:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of my big fascinations was around the gathering of the original Appalachian Trail Conference.
4:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would fantasize about being there in Washington DC when they were actually putting this together and formulating the organization and then prioritizing, you know, taking on this monumental volunteer task.
4:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I learned a lot about these different trails and their history, and I was fascinated by it.
4:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And at some point I just realized, um,
5:01
[SPEAKER_01]: though I was using these trails and that and also I had thousands of hours in volunteer time that I wanted to do something more for posterity's sake and that I wanted to be part of history really not as a means to a legacy and not as a means to my name's sake but just I felt so blessed that
5:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I didn't do anything to create these trails.
5:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They were there by the time I was born.
5:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And then just by being privileged enough to be born where I was, and then having access and opportunity, I was able to enjoy these.
5:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is my big motivator for doing this and wanting just to pass the torch onto another generation, because,
5:55
[SPEAKER_01]: This work never ends, so it won't be finished in my lifetime, but I want to be at least a bridge to kind of pass the torch on.
6:03
[SPEAKER_02]: Rude, that is super, super cool.
6:04
[SPEAKER_02]: And I am such a firm believer.
6:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'll just say it this way.
6:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people ask what's the meaning of life, and I just say it's a wrong question.
6:14
[SPEAKER_02]: that the way we should behave is more along the lines of what gives life meaning for me, right?
6:21
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you find something that you find meaningful and valuable, that you want to contribute to, where you can make a difference in the world in a way that you care about, if that's a calling, and that can really give life meaning.
6:37
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a responsibility to that, and I've talked about it other times, in fact, the first book, you know, the first page where it starts, it's called a vision.
6:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, in big, bold letters.
6:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what occurred to me very specifically on a day.
6:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I had a vision, and I was given this purpose.
7:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I don't want to make it all dramatic and theatrical like this white, bright, light experience.
7:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was more like a daydream, but I see, I think daydreams are our visions and are giving us some information.
7:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
7:19
[SPEAKER_01]: After I had this vision and after I was given this purpose, I couldn't unsee it, and I tried for ten years.
7:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I tried for ten years to unsee it, but it was such a blessing.
7:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are days when I don't feel like it's a blessing.
7:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll be honest about that.
7:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, a lot of any time there is a purpose and you feel compelled to follow that.
7:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It may come at a, there's going to be some
7:48
[SPEAKER_01]: or maybe it's not a worthy enough purpose, if there's not.
7:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And that could even be just having a family, or committing to a long-term relationship, or making investments in your community.
8:02
[SPEAKER_01]: These all on the surface are really wonderful things to participate in.
8:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But with that being said, like there is going to be a personal toll and cost to that.
8:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So I felt very blessed to have been given this vision and to receive this purpose in my life.
8:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I try to ignore it for years and I finally surrendered and I let go.
8:31
[SPEAKER_01]: and decided that I would go forth no matter what the consequence is.
8:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you read the books, when I say no matter what the consequence, I really mean no matter what the consequence.
8:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But it took me like I said 10 years to kind of get desperate.
8:52
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a level of commitment that, well, few people commit to an idea to that degree, I think.
8:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless it is something like raising a family.
9:02
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, to commit to something to that degree.
9:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's people that do that that change the world.
9:11
[SPEAKER_02]: And not everyone who does that changes the world, but unless you do that, you probably aren't going to be much of an impact.
9:19
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, anything worth having is worth working for.
9:22
[SPEAKER_02]: That's another way to say it, right?
9:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I read a lot about the women and men who brought these long trails to our country.
9:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And
9:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's written more.
9:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes there's a lot of information that speaks about their motivations, and other times not so much.
9:42
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
9:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And then for me, just personally, like my own motivation was just to leave something like I said for a posterity sake.
9:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And the way that I approached it was just because that's how it came to me in the initial vision.
10:00
[SPEAKER_01]: With today's technology, I think that you could come up with routes from your couch if you wanted to.
10:08
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not what I wanted to do, so I wanted to be on the ground actually scouting out this information and so there was no route when I actually started when I left Bend, Oregon in 2019.
10:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I made it up as I went, so I had something that I called homework which just meant I had a lot of maps laid out in my tent every night and I would just go through the maps and I would draw routes all over them and sometimes I would make a decision before I went to bed.
10:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I would wake up in the morning and it was like presto, like I knew which one to take.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And at other times, I just didn't have the proper information and I just had to do the best I could.
10:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And I made a ton of mistakes.
10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I read about, all right, right about, I didn't talk about it a lot in real time when it was actually happening.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But now, reflecting upon it and writing the books, I do share about lots of mistakes that I made along the way with determining the routes.
11:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is those mistakes, fortunately, I was able to go back and and reskout stuff after three years of continuous backpacking, I was able to return to some areas.
11:25
[SPEAKER_01]: and reskout them and I, you know, hopefully I've put together along with the help of the conference and our geography team put together a package that really is something that I felt was reflective of our membership and also honoring people who will want to be invested in this in the future.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I made a ton of mistakes and hopefully I made enough mistakes that people coming behind me walked out.
11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Just take a moment here to mention that after I did finish the trail, the conference got together a jogger-fu team.
12:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But we didn't keep the information on a server because we weren't sure if we had to protect our intellectual property and if we would even be able to direct that.
12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So we kept all of the information in my brain.
12:18
[SPEAKER_01]: The whole entire 15,000 miles.
12:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just what it was.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I took a lot of risk during this trail.
12:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And when it started getting closer to the end, there were people involved in the organization that were like,
12:33
[SPEAKER_01]: real like we obviously never wanted anything bad to happen to you.
12:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But just know like when you're making these decisions you've taken a lot of risk and if something happens to you, it's over like we don't know where you actually went where the trail actually goes.
12:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So I worked with the team during that time and I am proud to say that we are able to create the 15,000 mile hiking app and it's available at hiker.com with two eyes you can go there and download it for free.
13:04
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't monetize it.
13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a decision that I made.
13:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I decided that I was going to raise the money and then wanted to give that as my gift.
13:17
[SPEAKER_01]: to the public, all those involved and people interested in this, so that they could go and have the information.
13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So that does now exist.
13:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It's no longer just in my mind.
13:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I needed to free up some space anyways, so I'm glad for that.
13:35
[SPEAKER_02]: let's create a skeleton to hang some meat on.
13:37
[SPEAKER_02]: How about that?
13:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
13:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
13:39
[SPEAKER_02]: So the perimeter trail you already said, it kind of circumnavigates U.S.
13:43
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's on the coast or the border.
13:46
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's in linda little bit from those things.
13:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You created this route as you went clearly, which sounds like an amazing adventure.
13:56
[SPEAKER_02]: How long is this trail?
13:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so what we have showing on our app is 15,000 miles and then I think it's pretty much going to stay within that range.
14:08
[SPEAKER_01]: My first trek around was just over 14,000, but that's just that was just to kind of complete the loop because I didn't finish backpacking actually for another two years after that.
14:21
[SPEAKER_01]: because like I said, I went back and I rescalded areas.
14:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I also went to areas that were not available for me as a professional backpacker during the time because of the pandemic.
14:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went back to those places.
14:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was just kind of the process.
14:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And then as far as the trail goes, sometimes it's on shared footbed, sometimes it's on neutral, sometimes it's on roads, sometimes it's on two tracks, sometimes on old railroad grades.
14:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I really try to utilize anything that I could find as I went to try to bring it into more of a holistic system, trail network, if you will.
15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: There are some areas where we have some partners that have sprung up being inspired from the work that we've been doing.
15:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm really excited for us to build some state trails.
15:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So what would that look like?
15:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be like, for instance, states that don't have long trails.
15:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So this would be Texas.
15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: This would be Louisiana.
15:31
[SPEAKER_01]: This would be Mississippi.
15:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so on, and I can go on and on about states that just don't have access, you know, because I'm joining you from Bend to Oregon today, and that's been base camp for me over the years.
15:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I haven't been here much, but when I'm in the front country, I try to make it to Bend.
15:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people often ask me like, oh, so you must be doing a ton of work in Oregon, but the truth of the matter is that Oregon is really well served in a lot of ways.
16:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean that there's not a lot of great work to do here.
16:11
[SPEAKER_01]: It means that there's a lot of really great organizations here.
16:15
[SPEAKER_01]: that are supporting the forest service, that are supporting the park service, that are stewards of their own trail systems.
16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not that there's not development in some of the states that you would think of as your quintessential backpacking or hiking states or regions.
16:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's that there are other regions that simply do not have any of this recreation.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: They do not have public land.
16:40
[SPEAKER_01]: They do not have ecotourism.
16:42
[SPEAKER_01]: They do not have access to just going out and having a picnic or going fishing without having to cross other people's land is the space for them to do it.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where my interest is.
16:54
[SPEAKER_01]: has really been spiked and that's also where, fortunately, we've seen a lot of people interested in the conference and the work that we're doing are from those specific areas that do not have a state trail or do not have a long trail or just do not have very much public land at all.
17:13
[SPEAKER_02]: there's a history element to this which I don't know and maybe you do I'm just going to say this I grew up in northeastern Oklahoma and everything there almost without exception is private property yes if it's not a river or a lake or maybe a game preserve it's private property so making a long trail could be very very challenging because you're trying to get a right of way
17:36
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, across private land, but if you go to the west, it was developed later on.
17:42
[SPEAKER_02]: There are more wide open spaces that became land that was designated as, you know, BLM, Bureau of Land Management, you have the Forest Service Land, and eventually the wilderness areas, the National Parks.
17:53
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was a lot of land in the west that was held in common.
17:57
[SPEAKER_02]: That's public land.
17:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
17:59
[SPEAKER_02]: But back east, man, property rights, people own it,
18:05
[SPEAKER_02]: I could see how it could be a real challenge.
18:06
[SPEAKER_02]: You're talking about places like Louisiana, Texas, and Alabama, and I'm thinking, yeah, how do you get a trail across all that private property?
18:16
[SPEAKER_02]: How does that work?
18:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Creativity.
18:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, anytime that this is the one thing that we've tried to bring to our process with the conference is being innovative.
18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
18:29
[SPEAKER_01]: like I'll give you an example you know I was contacted by uh by someone in the industry let's say and um they very much are always like rude you won't even be able to get up a marker you won't even be able to get up a signpost
18:44
[SPEAKER_01]: not that you can't get any um because we already have and we've created trelleds and we've created shelters we've already done all that but at this point in time they're like the amount of red tape you have to go through to create all of these different things and I had to respond to them we already made thousands of signpost and they were puzzled at that
19:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And so instead of me taking our resources and like physically trying to fight to get a sign here or a sign there, we did it digitally.
19:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was creating the app.
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so you just totally look at the whole thing from a different perspective.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was like, yeah, I already worked.
19:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we already worked around that.
19:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's the same thing when you come to a situation.
19:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what'll happen.
19:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And I go through this pretty extensively in book two, I do talk about, you mentioned Oklahoma, I bring up some history and examples of basically the public land in Texas.
19:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's all informed by history.
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, without giving a thesis on this, I do go through this in the book and explain how there were some landials that were made, kind of the history of Texas, how I came to formation, how that kind of very much like I said informed the current situation where right now in Texas only 1.2% of the entire landmass is public.
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: you know it's coming up with these creative ideas and I think like if I'm going to use that example it's going to be different for every single region but I think what'll happen there is their house in senate will end up proving a measure to free up some utility easements that already exist
20:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what that's going to mean is either an area where there was currently utility that's been moved or in a lot of cases that's real roads.
20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So they actually have to go through a process to free that up because in Texas, where in other places, where those easements are or where there's a railroad,
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes they are owned by the state or they're actually on a public easement that the company is allowed to use, but in Texas a lot of those places are actually within the property of the stakeholder.
21:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So that may mean even though there's an operational, maybe there's not an operational utility there or railroad, but it's still may be that that parcel may still be in the hands of the stakeholder.
21:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So you just go through some creative solutions and I think that when you find the kind of will, whether it be the political will or like I said in some areas where people are kind of jumping at the bit to get their state trail, I think.
21:55
[SPEAKER_01]: with that kind of effort and energy, then there's more creative solutions that come up to this.
22:01
[SPEAKER_01]: But I have to be clear about something.
22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not a naysayer.
22:05
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when I started this, I had plenty of naysayers.
22:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I would listen to any of them, I, you know, what would have happened is I wouldn't have started when I did.
22:17
[SPEAKER_01]: because I would have kept on telling myself the story that I was hearing was that you don't have enough backing, you don't have enough resources, you don't have enough funding, you don't have sponsors, you don't have a public presence, you don't have the nonprofit and the membership.
22:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I would have done that, I would have waited until I could maybe check the boxes to get each one of them in just the right spot.
22:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the pandemic would have hit and I would have never started.
22:47
[SPEAKER_01]: With me I see that I see that there are challenges and I'm not naive to them, but I'm also unwilling to get sucked into finality and just this kind of disposition and our constitution that believes that well things are too difficult so then we can't do them.
23:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's why we have many hands
23:15
[SPEAKER_02]: man.
23:16
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a huge project.
23:19
[SPEAKER_02]: I, uh, I'm just super impressed and my mind is racing to a million things at once, but one of those things is they're going to be areas where you're laying in new trail.
23:28
[SPEAKER_02]: You get the easement somehow it works and you need to put the trail in.
23:33
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have people that are available that are say, okay, I'll go make trail.
23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we absolutely do, and we have volunteers.
23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say one of the challenges right now, and this is not just for us.
23:46
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a huge challenge that came up in 2025, and I am not gonna speak on behalf of other organizations.
23:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You can look, I mean, it's all been published about,
24:00
[SPEAKER_01]: a difficulty with having to cut trail building in 2025 and not continue on in 2026.
24:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, I won't go and represent these trail organizations but any of the national scenic trails if you go on their websites or look at their newsletters, they've published articles about their challenges.
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so some of that is that the four service and the park service are not apt to take on new projects now
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: funding cut in 2025, continue into 2026.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also we have other organizations like this would be Youth Conservation Corps or also AmeriCorps that are getting an extremely cut or maybe even getting the axe.
24:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of challenges there and really any kind of effort like this is the only as strong as its people.
24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: the appellation trail to the current moment is one of the biggest volunteer projects ever in history.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is the kind of effort that it takes and that kind of will.
25:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's important that it's supportive through these different institutions and agencies and that they're supporting this kind of work.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: But they're not necessarily in a position to do that currently.
25:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So what happens is political will changes.
25:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And then
25:28
[SPEAKER_01]: and being in the nonprofit sector, you roll with that, and you try to manage investments, and you try to manage energy and momentum when you have it, and then you hold on when you don't have
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: you just hold on.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, you know, it can be a feast and famine situation.
25:52
[SPEAKER_01]: We are not a political organization at all.
25:55
[SPEAKER_01]: We have members that are from all different kinds of varieties of backgrounds and beliefs and ideas.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what works for us because we are the American perimeter trail.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: We are the American trail.
26:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And we are representative of that.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: But with the amount of divisiveness that has been going on with our country,
26:17
[SPEAKER_01]: very much kind of a binary system or black and white.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It makes it very difficult to stabilize or to have long-term projects because it can be a matter of yeast and famine.
26:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's just a challenge.
26:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's just a challenge that has always existed.
26:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nothing new.
26:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, I would say like volunteering,
26:41
[SPEAKER_01]: is going to be whenever you have institutions that are failing, what you hope is that philanthropy or that the people fill in that gap of where that's happening.
26:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So we may see we've already seen with the pandemic, a huge surgeons and outdoor recreation and people getting outside.
27:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing to say that some of these institutions are unable
27:06
[SPEAKER_01]: to support the work that we won't see a surgeons in the people and like, I mean, it could be the era of volunteerism coming.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I hold on for this optimism, and this is my world view, and this is how I go for it.
27:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So I go forth in the world as if it's going to be a positive experience as if there is a way through.
27:32
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how it's going to work out.
27:34
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there are a couple of models that I know of, and I know expert, you're the expert root, but I want to give these in a way of example for people just to consider.
27:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And then maybe you can,
27:43
[SPEAKER_02]: have a commentary on how these work out a little bit.
27:46
[SPEAKER_02]: So I live in Gunnison, Colorado.
27:48
[SPEAKER_02]: We have an organization here called Gunnison Trails.
27:51
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funded by several different mechanisms.
27:54
[SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't even begin to name them all, but one of those mechanisms is a lot of the local businesses here.
28:01
[SPEAKER_02]: They give 1% of their revenue to Gunnison Trails.
28:05
[SPEAKER_02]: They do it voluntarily.
28:07
[SPEAKER_02]: They put it on the menu at the restaurant.
28:09
[SPEAKER_02]: It's on a plaque on the wall.
28:11
[SPEAKER_02]: It says, we're supporting Gunis and Trails.
28:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, of course, the trail system here brings people into our valley, which then also helps those businesses.
28:20
[SPEAKER_02]: But so we have a private organization and as a result of that, there's over 700 miles of single track in our valley from mountain biking for hiking for all those sorts of things.
28:34
[SPEAKER_02]: 700 miles is nothing in comparison to the 15,000 that you're putting together.
28:39
[SPEAKER_02]: But the point is it's a local model.
28:42
[SPEAKER_02]: People volunteer when we have to get approval from the BLM or the Forest Service to put
28:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But that has been successful and I have volunteered and built trail and it's an exciting thing to do, a great way to give back and a great way to meet other people.
29:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you also have, I was just thinking about the trail system that's going in around Benville, Arkansas.
29:09
[SPEAKER_02]: where the Walton's, you know, the Walmart people.
29:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my Walton's got behind it and they've built world class mountain biking and hiking trail systems in the Ozarks in an area that did not have trails.
29:21
[SPEAKER_02]: I can tell you, because I grew up there, they're just really we're almost no trails.
29:25
[SPEAKER_02]: And now there's a world class trail system there because
29:28
[SPEAKER_02]: some benefactors got involved, got behind it, and they've built an economy around that as well.
29:34
[SPEAKER_02]: So those are two different ideas on how this can be handled privately or semi-privately without having to get the government to do something necessarily.
29:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you expel on these models a little bit?
29:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, I'm happy to.
29:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I got to speak, you know, I spoke a little bit about what my intentions are.
29:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how I got involved in this, how I came up with the idea.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But my intentions are not necessarily the intentions of the region in which the trail crosses through.
30:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and what I mean by intentions, I mean like motivations.
30:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So you may have an area where it is simply just recreational, based people just want to go out and get some sweat going.
30:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you may have an area where there is more, it's not as athletic, maybe it's more nature oriented.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we've tried to take the route to some universities so that there's a possibility for some outdoor classrooms.
30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So that would be another motivation.
30:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you have areas like, for instance, like, I spoke about Louisiana and the Louisiana Trail.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of their motivations there is local economy because they just do not have people coming there on the weekends to fill their restaurants or their hotels.
30:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And so give people an option to come out of the city and enjoy areas that they wouldn't normally go to.
31:08
[SPEAKER_01]: there can be vastly different motivations for why a certain region or a community would want this trail and that is going to influence like who's willing to invest in it, whether or not it aligns with their values, whether or not they want to give their money to something that specifically is going to support a lifestyle for them or for their community.
31:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have been a grassroots organization from the beginning.
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to speak specifically about numbers, but let's just say like there's been a, there was a lot of money needed to do the work that we've done, even creating the app and creating the maps and the website and disseminating all this information because we did all that for free.
31:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were, we've mostly been able to do that on the good will of either Orgnus or I'm sorry, on the good will of like, let's say, for instance, I'm an all-plug them a little bit here, but, you know, Hiker was really big and helping us with the development of the app.
32:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Ward Press.
32:17
[SPEAKER_01]: has also been very generous to us and then decides that it's been a lot of individual contributions.
32:27
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, if you look at any trail organization, there is a, there may be a dialogue out there that says that you can look at their budgets.
32:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, every year you're going to publish a budget.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can see how small of a mount is typically like corporate sponsorship.
32:46
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really not that impressive.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It can be, it can be, but that's not usually the bread and butter.
32:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's all these federal or state or local grants and money that's available.
32:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But what these terrorizations have in common is if you look at their budgets, you're going to see that a vast amount of it is from individual contributions.
33:10
[SPEAKER_01]: it really is a broad and bread and butter product for a lot of these trail organizations.
33:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So whether we don't have a, you know, I have talked about we're going to be seeking national scenic trail status.
33:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I don't do that.
33:29
[SPEAKER_01]: an order or we're not doing that in order to secure specific federal funds because that is not how the money is allocated at that level.
33:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So even securing that designation will not necessarily secure that we get an equal or equitable piece of the pie.
33:49
[SPEAKER_01]: When that money is distributed from the Trails Act of 1968 and then amended in 1978, most of that money goes to the Appalachian Trail in the Pacific Crest Trail.
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not evenly distributed among the 11 trails.
34:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the way that it works.
34:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
34:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, that wouldn't necessarily, I am like doing that as far as like some of the protections and interested in the protections that the designation brings.
34:15
[SPEAKER_01]: But other than that, I think it's very difficult for us to be a fledgling organization because we haven't had since the 1920s to build a half million member base.
34:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's something that takes decades, but I am very proud of the work that we've been able to do with just people who have come on and have paid their $35 to join annually as part of our membership.
34:45
[SPEAKER_01]: of a lot of the people, like this is always interesting to me.
34:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I love this.
34:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We have states that are not, we have members that are from states that are not on the perimeter, like the trails not going through their state, but they still want to be a part of it.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have people in other countries that are members as well that are never coming here to hike this, but just really like when they want to be involved in something positive,
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: before they croak.
35:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And so do I. I just want to leave the world.
35:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to be part of something bigger than myself and just do something positive before I die and have a little fun while I'm at it.
35:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is,
35:26
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the whole thing.
35:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So with that proposition, we've had a lot of people join us just as the grassroots level without having to rely heavily on, like I said, a political will or a particular funding or grant.
35:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But the community involvement that you spoke about with your community is absolutely vital.
35:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love hearing that I'm so glad that you shared that with me here.
35:54
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's one model that can move forward even when everything else seems to be against, you know, because you can get people behind an idea, if there's no money in a budget somewhere, there are still people who can contribute time and energy and maybe money.
36:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, you mentioned conservation corridors, and I want to make sure we get more information about that.
36:17
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the listeners will know that Mason, the previous host of the Adventure Sports podcast, his new job got him so busy that I ended up inheriting the podcast again.
36:29
[SPEAKER_02]: was that he took a job with an organization that puts together conservation corridors in Florida and it takes them, you know, it takes them away off the grid for extended periods of time.
36:42
[SPEAKER_02]: So it just became impossible for him to continue the podcast.
36:45
[SPEAKER_02]: But that said, what on earth is a conservation corridor?
36:49
[SPEAKER_02]: Why should people think of when they hear that term?
36:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so essentially you're protecting the floor in Fana.
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And this could be a river system, it could be a stream system, or it could be any number of different ecological systems.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And I love that you brought that up about Mason and the work that he's doing in Florida.
37:11
[SPEAKER_01]: They're doing a fantastic job down there.
37:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've gotten to do a couple of projects in Florida as part of this.
37:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's very exciting to work that they're doing.
37:23
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason that it's a looks a little bit different.
37:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll try to explain this.
37:29
[SPEAKER_01]: is that the conservation corridor, let me start here, because I think this will resonate with your listeners.
37:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So I used to work for the Appalachian Trail Conference.
37:41
[SPEAKER_01]: They're now the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, but at the time, they were the conference.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like 20 years old, I was a young man, and I remember making a mistake with one of the directors, and I said to them, I said, oh yeah, you know, recreation organization, and they quickly corrected me and said, we are not a recreation organization.
38:01
[SPEAKER_01]: We are a conservation organization.
38:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's how we're all these trail organizations.
38:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's how we are,
38:09
[SPEAKER_01]: filed with the IRS is as conservation organizations.
38:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So they have a trail, you know, they have a continuous flip path.
38:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like the lay national ceiling trail that's actually pretty much done.
38:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And then what they do is they expand the corridor out from the trail.
38:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's ended up happening over the last 100 years is you have this huge swath
38:38
[SPEAKER_01]: going through this amazing ecosystem that we know as the Appalachias that wouldn't be there otherwise.
38:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you've seen the kind of amount of environmental degradation that went on in the Appalachians at the turn of the century, I mean, where I'm originally from outside of
38:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can see pictures from the turn of the century, and it's mountains as far as you can see, and there's not a single tree, not one.
39:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a single tree.
39:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and then also like the strip mining that you'll see or mount top removal and different parts of the Appalachia.
39:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So now, because of the work that's done with the trail, we have in protection,
39:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This huge dynamic ecosystem going up through the appellations because of the concept of the trail.
39:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So in my mind, it's like I want to protect as much land for the floor and the fauna and the ecosystems as possible.
39:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one way to do that is through recreation, you know, if I, I could not find a way to come up with the conservation corridor without the trail and I also can't figure out a way to build the trail without the conservation corridor.
40:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So they, you know, they have this relationship that's in tandem.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think they very much align and supplement each other.
40:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as far as the conservation corridor, it's like,
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like if I, I would be turning my wheels for the next 30 years, if I just talked about a conservation corridor around the United States.
40:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think some people would be interested.
40:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I would get a couple of people's ears.
40:30
[SPEAKER_01]: There would be some people in those communities that would have some interest.
40:35
[SPEAKER_01]: But wow, like having this amazing space that we can go out and enjoy the land and we have a trail system through.
40:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you've got people's ear and you're benefiting like human beings and the ecology at the same time.
40:51
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have to be an opposition.
40:53
[SPEAKER_01]: There was an area that I visited North Carolina where there was a huge forest thousands and thousands and thousands of trees and I was interested in bringing the trail through there and I was trying to figure out a way to do it.
41:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And this wasn't a mistake, but this was a failure of mine.
41:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was interested in bringing the trail through there, which meant we were going to have to try to figure out a way to save this forest.
41:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm very specifically using the word save.
41:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And I even had people at that time say, like, you can't put a dirt trail through there.
41:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to disturb habitat.
41:32
[SPEAKER_01]: to which my answer was, unfortunately, within months, that entire area got leveled.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That entire force has gone.
41:41
[SPEAKER_01]: The entire force has gone.
41:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Not a standing train, the entire thing.
41:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So to think that a dirt trail was gonna disturb the ecosystem when it actually maybe would have saved the corridor.
41:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And that, you know, like I said, I wasn't able to do that in that area.
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a failure.
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I did learn from it.
42:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And I did get to see like, you know, when they took down that forest, it honestly only took a couple days.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got to see from like hiking through this beautiful land to like within days it was just completely gone.
42:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think I don't know where the line is between conservation and trail.
42:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're just two things that necessarily have to go together, you know.
42:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there has to be a value for the land to defend the idea of not extracting other values from the land sometimes.
42:43
[SPEAKER_02]: I think creative thinking is a big part of it.
42:46
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's another concept, and I'm speaking beyond my knowledge to even bring it up.
42:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But I just want to mention it.
42:53
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of these corridors, the ideas that these are migratory routes for animals, and if they cannot, if these animals can't connect the dots between their birthing area and their maturing area or their mating areas or their, you know, the winter versus the summer areas, if they can't connect those dots somehow, then it really puts a stress.
43:18
[SPEAKER_02]: on the on the fauna and then they may not even survive or the you know they can end up in situations where fencing and roads and things just making almost impossible corridors connect those dots to allow the wildlife it's not just a matter of we protected a strip of land it's like no we connected the land necessarily that that's correct so what you'll find is like that could be a criticism too of the American perimeter trail is like
43:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it looks like it's falling like a geographical border, like is it actually falling a migratory route, right?
43:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it does, because they run across it.
43:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, anytime you create a conservation area, you're gonna have some kind of migratory route, or you're gonna have certain number of species that only exist in that area or rare.
44:09
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something that we see, like, for instance, the Yellowstone to Glacier Court or, but is a natural migratory route through the Connel Divide Trail, or I'm sorry, through the Connel Divide, and there is a lot of, well, specifically mammals.
44:31
[SPEAKER_01]: but also plant life within this very special ecosystem that exists in the United States.
44:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think personally, being able to bring these lands into protections so that they can be specifically that, it's something bigger than ourselves.
44:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I have said that before.
44:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's like something bigger than just the human experience.
44:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't see those different either.
45:00
[SPEAKER_01]: advantages for our planet is also advantages for us.
45:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't see a big distinction there.
45:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I think where there can be a big distinction as when we're considering the bottom line.
45:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and then we're considering things that are more business oriented that don't really have anything to do with the intrinsic value of things that I call our birthrights.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I know not everyone agrees with me on this, but I think clean water is a birthright.
45:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that clean air is a birthright, right?
45:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I think access to land,
45:42
[SPEAKER_01]: recreation, whether that be hunting or fishing or hiking, is a birthright.
45:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That is my personal value.
45:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that is why I am willing to spend my life doing this in order to protect and secure those birthrights because it's a value system of mine.
46:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I understand.
46:08
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the reasons I live in the West, and Gunnison County is 90% public lands.
46:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I feel so incredibly blessed.
46:17
[SPEAKER_02]: I have unlimited playground here that is at my disposal.
46:22
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's not right now this moment because the Gunnison Sage Grouse, we have a spring closure for these public lands.
46:30
[SPEAKER_02]: because that's an endangered species, and so there's given take and there are ways to manage it wisely.
46:36
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to throw a controversial one out there, just maybe to rock people's boats a little bit, because for this perimeter trail to be successful, I think it's going to have to require a lot of creative solutions, which you've already alluded to.
46:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But
46:52
[SPEAKER_02]: most people that would say their conservationists might feel negative feelings toward big game hunting.
47:01
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not talking about elk and deer.
47:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking about lions and zebras in Africa.
47:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and I for one always thought, well, I don't think that would be my thing because I just don't feel like it would be right to go kill those animals and But here's the thing.
47:17
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a model in Africa that's very successful Where large ranches large tracks of land are privately held and they take care of the megafauna there so people can hunt them
47:32
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know it sounds nuts, but what they explain is if there was not hunting and a way to make this land valuable economically, then the land would not be protected, and the animals would not be protected, and we would have none of this.
47:48
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's very controversial solution.
47:51
[SPEAKER_02]: But it is protecting the habitat and the animals.
47:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so there's a there's a amount of pragmatism that comes with that.
47:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I don't want to go too far into definitions.
48:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But right, you know, typically, typically someone who is maybe considering themselves an environmentalist, maybe more of the notion of purity.
48:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is like, don't touch anything.
48:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, this is, and I'm sorry, I don't really want to get into definitions, but I'm just going to do this because, of course, we could argue this back and forth, but a conservation might be more pragmatic, so like for instance, you know, the state forest in Pennsylvania, they have to harvest 5% of it every year, that's what they do for the conservation piece, so they harvest 5% and then they move that around in sustainable ways throughout their forest system.
48:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the environmental perspective may be more like, don't touch it, and then the conservation perspective is more like coming up with these pragmatic ideas of how do we make it sustainable.
49:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we know one thing that's not sustainable and don't take it or don't touch it is not sustainable.
49:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Like humans.
49:13
[SPEAKER_01]: We all know this.
49:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
49:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We couldn't just shut down like taking, like we have to have organic material to sustain life on this planet.
49:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we didn't make up the rules.
49:24
[SPEAKER_01]: We all came here.
49:26
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the situation you have to eat, plant matter, or protein, or whatever.
49:31
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is how we have to sustain our lives here.
49:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So, not killing plants or not killing animals, is not possible.
49:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, not using natural resources is not possible.
49:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So using your example, I think that is kind of the conservation piece is like, how do we manage the land in such a way that we can ensure the protections?
50:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes that means harvesting.
50:09
[SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes that may be means hunting.
50:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, I'm not one to speak as an expert on big game hunting whether it's an Africa.
50:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we have members, we have members that will, you know, definitely don't like hunting and we have members that are very much into hunting.
50:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't really take a stand on how I expect people to use different parts too.
50:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the trail itself would have different designations like most trails because it's too long.
50:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So it won't be the same in a single area.
50:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you're going onto a rail to trail, if we end up working on that in Texas, you know, some of this is probably going to have bicycles because that's just the nature of where it's traveling through in the community in which it's serving.
50:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But the thing that's important is that the creative piece and then the pragmatism of being realistic and dealing with the world in which we live, I have gone more from my idealistic to realistic as part of this work, and I've done that, yeah, I've done that so that I've been able to better serve our community.
51:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So I may have things that I want, but I have to be realistic within the confines in which which I find them.
51:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So they can have progress.
51:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's not just like work coming to a standstill because we can't get past something.
51:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are like, again, the historical study of trails in this country.
51:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to see
51:41
[SPEAKER_01]: and many of these situations where a long trail was being worked on that there was usually two divisions and there were like two groups within this organization that had vastly different ideas about this and that is just part of the process.
51:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have to work through it.
52:00
[SPEAKER_01]: and you have to make decisions that are going to continue the work.
52:05
[SPEAKER_01]: They're also timely because just one decision you make, one decade, maybe is not going to be popular and the following decade, or there's going to be more information that comes online, that just like that wasn't a good look.
52:19
[SPEAKER_01]: That actually was not pragmatic.
52:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It actually didn't make sense.
52:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a step in the wrong direction.
52:26
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we don't have perfect crystal balls to understand how the future is going to unfold, but we can do the best we can with the information and the resources at hand.
52:37
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's what we're called to do.
52:39
[SPEAKER_02]: And binary thinking, you know, things are on or off, all or nothing, those sorts of approaches rarely,
52:49
[SPEAKER_02]: achieve the angle and you've already spoken to that right if we if we say it's completely hands off don't touch it versus the idea of let's create a resource where we are helping nature we're helping economies we're helping recreation we're helping people be healthier we're helping people learn more about nature so they care more about caring for it I mean all of these things work together but it requires
53:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, I served on a board of directors for a water shed association where we were trying to protect a larger body of water, but some of the tributaries that were leading into it were highly contaminated by just by just cattle being there in the area.
53:44
[SPEAKER_01]: is purposely being directed into the stream.
53:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm not talking about just some cows in the stream.
53:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about mass production here.
53:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, someone would say, well, then just get rid of all the cows.
53:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Just get rid of them, right?
54:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do we do as an organization?
54:05
[SPEAKER_01]: What we did is we got money and raised money in order to go and put it in fencing,
54:11
[SPEAKER_01]: that would keep the cows out of the stream.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Then we were able to give funds and grants to farmers who applied for it for them to have water tanks where they actually had healthier waters so they weren't having to give their animals all the antibiotics because they weren't gonna infections from drinking this horrible water and then also like,
54:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the slurry and then also like the farms that were just pouring the stuff into the creek, you know, then there need to be infrastructure bill in order to take care of that.
54:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't get rid of the cows.
54:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It was how do we protect the waterways?
54:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But then these people still have a right to a livelihood.
54:51
[SPEAKER_02]: So I love that it's not a matter of stopping the thing.
54:55
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a matter of
55:01
[SPEAKER_02]: That's beautiful.
55:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's it's interesting, Ruby, because we've already been talking here for nearly an hour.
55:09
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've had a lot of episodes on through hiking and I love to hear people stories and all that kind of thing.
55:15
[SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about the nuts and bolts of trying to create more trail connecting these dots and I think it's a huge benefit, a huge benefit.
55:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And I applaud your efforts.
55:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I am super stoked about this.
55:29
[SPEAKER_02]: But do you have a story being a triple crowner, having done this perimeter trail,
55:34
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have a story that kind of illustrates how life impacting it can be to get out there and do some of these things?
55:42
[SPEAKER_01]: This is why I end up writing about a lot in the books.
55:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And because the books are basically what happened because I wasn't real forward facing about my day-to-day while I was out there.
55:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I was more interested and motivated about forming the organization and how we were going to support the work and the work that we were doing.
56:07
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we've been talking about during this interview.
56:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the other part is I was still also backpacking 20
56:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, this was all happening.
56:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I would be taking board.
56:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
56:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I have meetings from my tent.
56:24
[SPEAKER_01]: All the time, because I'm trying to be like...
56:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to do the business part and the organization piece, but then I'm also the boots on the ground at the same time.
56:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want to know more about what actually happened, why was out there?
56:40
[SPEAKER_01]: The books tell, and you know, they weave in decoration in the trail.
56:45
[SPEAKER_01]: They weave in like creating the nonprofit.
56:47
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you do all this?
56:48
[SPEAKER_01]: They weave in the historic parts, but they're also like the very first account of what actually happened,
56:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to tell you, it's unfortunately, I don't say this to be Cavalier, but it's way more intense than I think anyone's going to expect when they start reading these.
57:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not for thematic purposes.
57:14
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
57:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That is just what happened.
57:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I had completed the triple crown almost.
57:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm coming up on my 20th year anniversary of completing the triple crown.
57:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And this American Premier Trail was an ex-level.
57:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't have any other way to explain it.
57:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no trail, just map encompass, no apps, no informational guides, and also not going through trail communities.
57:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you may not see another hiker or backpacker for a year or more, or hike with anyone, or hike with anyone or camp with anyone for two years.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And you may not see another person for an entire month because you haven't resupply brought into you because of the pandemic.
57:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like this whole thing was an x-level.
57:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So unfortunately, as you read through it, there's not going to be a lot of the community piece because there is no other backpackers.
58:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it is just me, and there may be no hikers, either, it was just me.
58:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But what you find is like the trail angels are not, they don't know their trail angels.
58:19
[SPEAKER_01]: They're not aware of the American perimeter trail.
58:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't know who I am.
58:23
[SPEAKER_01]: They could care less.
58:25
[SPEAKER_01]: They are just people who are meeting me as I go around the country.
58:30
[SPEAKER_01]: and then making a decision to help me out, you know, just out of the kindness of their heart without even knowing that I was this guy on this mission.
58:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also had the converse of that, which I didn't have on the triple crown.
58:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have law enforcement issues or contact with dangerous people on the triple crown.
58:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I certainly do on the American perimeter trail, but I think like the human spirit of it really comes out when like I said, these uh, trail angels don't think of themselves of the trail angel because they've never heard of a trail angel, they've never even heard of a distance backpacker.
59:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They've maybe never even met a backpacker before because of where they live.
59:20
[SPEAKER_01]: and they're taking me without seeing a website or social media or something like, because I was on whatever the today show or something, they're just seeing a person who looks kind of tired and lonely and weather beaten and could probably use a little bit of help.
59:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think like as you read the books, there is a bunch of human conflicts that it is not necessarily good.
59:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And that wasn't because of like private land.
59:55
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just being outside of the trail communities.
59:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you're on the Pacific Crestary or the Appalachian Trail, every town you go into is trail community, trail community, trail community.
1:00:04
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're on the American Primer Trail, you just go to a town and they just see some stranger.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Some dirty stranger with a backpack on and they come up with all kinds of ideas.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and they'll let you know about it sometimes.
1:00:17
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that's one of the reasons why formalizing this is such a good thing.
1:00:21
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
1:00:22
[SPEAKER_02]: Once people understand, oh, this is a thing.
1:00:24
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can care about these people.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_02]: This can help our community.
1:00:27
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_02]: They know why you're out there with a backpack.
1:00:30
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I look forward to also just like people in those areas being inspired and finding something that they, that they didn't know about.
1:00:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of people come to like,
1:00:42
[SPEAKER_01]: hobbies, including outdoor stuff, late in life, they just didn't know, and then they kind of like met some people, and there's a new trail being built, and they're like, oh, let me go out, find out more about this.
1:00:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Rue, I like that.
1:00:59
[SPEAKER_02]: I love the effort you're putting into it.
1:01:02
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a life calling for you.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.
1:01:06
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe in long trails.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe in short segments of long trails.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:01:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let me state that real quick.
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't build this for three hikers.
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this was not to build the biggest baddest trail on the planet.
1:01:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That is not what this is about.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_01]: This is about connecting communities,
1:01:27
[SPEAKER_01]: and bringing something new and positive to their region.
1:01:31
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what this is about.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_01]: This is about families going on picnics.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_01]: This is about people going to their favorite fishing hole.
1:01:37
[SPEAKER_01]: This is about people spending the weekend backpacking or going out for a day hike or just taking a picture by the sign of the American perimeter trail because it's cool.
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's what this is about.
1:01:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about being the tough,
1:01:53
[SPEAKER_01]: who's going to go out and through like this.
1:01:55
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do, that's great.
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not that was in my interest and doing this.
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's been a bit of a way to wrap it up.
1:02:06
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell us again about the name of the app.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_02]: You said it was hiker with two eyes.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hiker.com with two eyes.
1:02:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, the entire 15,000 miles is there, and you can do that for free.
1:02:21
[SPEAKER_01]: What you're going to see on our website then, which is americanprimetertrile.org, is an interactive map and also a concept map.
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And you may have a question of why are there two
1:02:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason for that is because we made a decision when we were taking all this information and digitizing it.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I made a decision that I was gonna put alternate routes and a couple other routes on the map and then let the cards fall where they may.
1:02:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
1:02:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Or just leave the alternate's always there with a primary route.
1:02:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the idea is that this trail is gonna continue to move extensively in the first couple decades and then in time it'll slow down.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're still like, we're still working through
1:03:06
[SPEAKER_01]: We're some of the best places for this to go, which is an exciting thing to be a part of because then you get a voice in that, you know, you don't really, with another established trail, you don't get that much of a voice of like, where the route is going to go, the American permanent trail, if you actually like live in one of these communities or you want to be involved, you have a say and where this actual trail is going to go, so kind of neat.
1:03:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, there's the books and my intention or my motivation for that is I want to just to bring the American prematurely to as many people's conscious as possible.
1:03:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm doing that through some adventure writing and I hope that that kind of spreads the word of our mission even if it's indirectly.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the books are the American Primiter Trail as well, books 1-4, and I guess these are kind of like subtitles, West, South, East, and North.
1:04:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That's it.
1:04:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:04:09
[SPEAKER_02]: That's beautiful.
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, Roo.
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you very much for your time today and for sharing this with us.
1:04:15
[SPEAKER_02]: I learned a ton and I love what you're doing.
1:04:18
[SPEAKER_02]: And for everyone else who's out there, man, maybe you want to get involved in this project,
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_02]: Why not?
1:04:26
[SPEAKER_02]: What a cool thing to be a part of, but whatever you do make sure you do get out there and have some fun.
1:04:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Fair wins.