Latest / Future Christian / Are We Thinking About Discipleship All Wrong? | Jessie Cruickshank & Julia Schmaltz

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Are We Thinking About Discipleship All Wrong? | Jessie Cruickshank & Julia Schmaltz · Future Christian

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Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a conversation about church leadership,
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Martha Tatarnic: fresh ideas, and the future of the church.
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Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
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Martha Tatarnic: Today Loren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with Jessie Cruickshank and
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Martha Tatarnic: Julia Schmaltz. Jessie is a Harvard-trained expert in the neuroscience of
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Martha Tatarnic: transformation. She founded Hoology to equip churches and leaders worldwide in
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Martha Tatarnic: brain-based discipleship. Author of Ordinary Discipleship and a sought-after speaker, Jessie
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Martha Tatarnic: Weev's story, science, and faith to inspire lasting change.
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Martha Tatarnic: In Colorado, where she enjoys mountain adventures with her husband.
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Martha Tatarnic: Julia is a storyteller and leader with three decades of ministry
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Martha Tatarnic: experience and serves as the chief operating officer of identity exchange,
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Martha Tatarnic: equipping others to live fearlessly in their true identity.
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Martha Tatarnic: Julia holds a master's in evangelism and leadership from Wheaton College
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Martha Tatarnic: and is shaping discipleship efforts across the globe.
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Martha Tatarnic: She lives in Orange County, California with her husband and And
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Martha Tatarnic: three adult children. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please
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Martha Tatarnic: take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review,
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Martha Tatarnic: Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram.
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Martha Tatarnic: Shoot us an email at Loren at Resonatemediapro.com with comments, questions,
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Martha Tatarnic: or ideas for future episodes. Your support and voice mean a
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Martha Tatarnic: lot to us in making this independent podcast possible.
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Loren: This is Loren Richmond Jr. and I am pleased to be
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Loren: joined today by Julia Smaltz and Jessie Cruickshank.
2:00
Loren: Hello to both of you. Welcome to the show.
2:03
Jessie: Hey, thanks for having us.
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Julia: Thanks for having us.
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Loren: So let's be let's begin with this since there's two of
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Loren: you, Julia since you've been we were just visiting here to
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Loren: start. Share just a b briefly about yourself, your sp your
2:14
Loren: faith background, what that looked like in the past and what
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Loren: it looks like today.
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Julia: Well, that's a long that's gonna take a while, but I'll
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Julia: try to be short with that.
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Julia: But I grew up in the church.
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Julia: my p grandfather was a pastor.
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Julia: My mom was born was raised in a Christian home as
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Julia: well and went to Bible college and eventually got my master's
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Julia: at Wheaton in evangelism and leadership.
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Julia: And so I serve locally in a four square church right
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Julia: here in my city in California.
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Julia: But really who I am is I am a truth teller
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Julia: to the nations and I'm a courageous pioneer.
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Julia: And what that means is that I help people discover their
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Julia: identities and walk in the truth of their stories.
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Julia: And so that's that's been something as I've come to discover
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Julia: what that is and who God has created me to be,
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Julia: I found a lot of freedom in just being able to
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Julia: operate like that. And so what What I've looked at that
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Julia: lens through for discipleship is how do we help others really
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Julia: ignite them to discover who God calls them to be and
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Julia: calls them by name, and then in doing that allow their
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Julia: what they do to flow from that being.
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Julia: And essentially, God has written a beautiful story over peop over
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Julia: everyone's life, and we want to help people discover that so
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Julia: they can live into it, into the fullness of who God
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Julia: has created them to be.
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Loren: Let ask this in real quick because I I always usually
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Loren: ask about spiritual practices. So whether for yourself or someone you're
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Loren: coaching along this sort of journey formation process, what are some
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Loren: spiritual practices that sort of help flesh out that story or
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Loren: help folks find that identity that you often use or recommend?
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Julia: Yeah. it's real simple. Listen, receive, respond.
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Julia: So listen to God's
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Loren: Hm.
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Julia: voice. receive what he speaks over you and then live out
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Julia: of that and how you respond.
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Julia: And that's that's through confession, that's through repentance, that's through really
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Julia: understanding what biblical forgiveness is and what we what we have
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Julia: been given through Christ, and living into that every day, and
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Julia: then getting to do that in community by being able to
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Julia: know who God speaks over me, and then being able to
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Julia: know what who got what God speaks over, Jessie and over
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Julia: you, Loren, and then being community saying just aligning to that
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Julia: well this is what God said to you before and then
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Julia: you know and this is who God says that you are
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Julia: and as we just encourage that with you know in myself
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Julia: and then in communities with others you begin to see really
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Julia: just the beauty of of how God is at work in
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Julia: people's lives. And that is the point that we don't just
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Julia: we don't arrive and we're like good I've got I've checked
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Julia: the box or I've You know, that is what a life
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Julia: of prayer is. That is his kingdom coming to earth and
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Julia: his will being done in every every moment of my life
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Julia: for as many days as I am alive on this earth.
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Julia: And so it's not a one and done.
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Julia: It's not I'm waiting to die, let me get out of
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Julia: here. It's I get to live in the fullness of what
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Julia: he what life abundant looks like today here on this earth.
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Julia: And that's
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Loren: Absolutely. Yeah.
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Julia: That's the joy of it.
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Loren: Yeah. Jessie, you've been on the show before, but share with
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Loren: folks who you are, where you came from, all that stuff.
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Jessie: Yeah, thanks, Loren. It's good to be back.
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Jessie: I was raised in a home with parents who were saved
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Jessie: in the Jesus movement and didn't really did not come from
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Jessie: Christian background. So when my inquisitive self would ask questions or
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Jessie: be confused because the Bible said one thing and the church
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Jessie: we were in taught something else, like that dancing was a
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Jessie: sin or alcohol was a sin or movies.
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Jessie: I didn't know how they got to movies being a sin
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Jessie: because movies aren't in the Bible, but like, When I would
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Jessie: ask them those questions, my parents would say, we don't know.
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Jessie: Go look it up. Go talk to God about it.
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Jessie: And so they were always encouraging me and my siblings to
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Jessie: go take our questions and curiosities and and all of that
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Jessie: and and and have a direct conversation with God about that
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Jessie: and let God answer. so it we my siblings, we came
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Jessie: to slightly different conclusions and have different types of relationships with
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Jessie: God or different theology streams that we found homes in.
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Jessie: But we were all encouraged, yeah, to to ask God and
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Jessie: have that conversation and listen to God and take God's word
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Jessie: and His like word to us and the Bible as the
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Jessie: the authority there over maybe what we would be taught in
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Jessie: Sunday school. So that created a little bit of independence.
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Jessie: Maybe in me a little bit rebelliousness, but That served that
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Jessie: has served me well because it's allowed me to be obedient
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Jessie: to what God says more over than what anyone else says.
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Jessie: So went into full-time ministry when I graduated college and have
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Jessie: been in full-time ministry ever since.
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Jessie: That's an it been an also it's interesting journey.
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Jessie: So I'm an ordained minister and serve locally at a Four
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Jessie: Square Church here in Thornton. And yeah, get to get to
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Jessie: serve wherever the Lord sends me.
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Jessie: And and what the Lord calls me is a terraformer for
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Jessie: the kingdom. So he sends me where he wants to, whether
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Jessie: it's hospitable or inhospitable. And I get to help pray, listen
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Jessie: to the Lord, bring his presence and see how God changes
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Jessie: people and just get to be on the front edge of
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Jessie: that. And that's pretty exciting for me.
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Jessie: So it's hard, it's
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Loren: Yeah, absolutely.
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Jessie: good, it's beautiful, and it requires carrying a hope of what's
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Jessie: possible. So
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Loren: Yeah, absolutely. shout out to our our hometowns here of Thornton,
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Loren: Colorado, Sarah Julia.
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Julia: Yeah.
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Loren: Jessie, share I again, I'm kinda curious, like how has that
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Loren: inquisitive nature similarly shaped your own faith practices?
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Loren: Spiritual practices. Hmm.
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Jessie: Yeah, I ask God a lot of questions.
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Jessie: I ask God all the questions all the time.
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Jessie: Sometimes he a lot of the times he doesn't answer, especially
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Jessie: if my question is kind of an accusational like, you know,
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Jessie: hey God, you have to give an account for this thing
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Jessie: that just happened or this thing that I face.
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Jessie: Like like he's not gonna defend himself to me.
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Jessie: but when it's like a curious question and it's really it's
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Jessie: really out of seeking and an open heartedness, he a lot
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Jessie: of times answers and has shown me some very crazy beautiful
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Jessie: things through my background in neuroscience and, you know, questions like,
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Jessie: hey God, you made us this way?
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Jessie: Why is that a good idea?
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Jessie: How how is a good God who's for us create us
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Jessie: in such a way that that these are the things that
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Jessie: we experience and these are the things that we go through?
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Jessie: Why do we have to go through it the hard way
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Jessie: in order to learn? Why did why did you set it
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Jessie: up to be like that? And so having those kinds of
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Jessie: conversations with the Lord, he's he's answered some those questions in
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Jessie: pretty fantastic ways that have only increased my faith that he
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Jessie: really is good and he really is for us and he
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Jessie: really knows what he's doing and he hasn't set us up
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Jessie: for failure. So that makes me pretty excited that that God
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Jessie: really
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Loren: Yeah, absolutely.
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Jessie: proves himself to be a good God.
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Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well I'm excited with all this in mind.
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Loren: I'm excited to talk about Jessie and Julia's book, Becoming Good
9:37
Loren: News, Reimagining Discipleship Through Identity, Story and and Science.
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Loren: So I want to start with this question 'cause I think
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Loren: early in the book you talk about discipleship being first and
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Loren: foremost your definition as about who we put our trust in.
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Loren: I Julie, I found that really intriguing.
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Loren: Do you want to share more about why Y all chose
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Loren: to ground your understanding discipleship in that way.
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Julia: It's who we put at the center of our life.
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Julia: So there was a guy by the name of James Fowler
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Julia: who wrote a book called The Stages of Faith.
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Julia: And when he talked it he wrote in there that the
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Julia: word in the Greek is pisto, and the Greek and that
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Julia: it's often translated in the Latin to credo, which we in
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Julia: which we get the word creed.
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Julia: And When I read that, what really struck me, I mean
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Julia: it I it just stopped me in my tracks and I
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Julia: had to message Jessie because what he was doing in that
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Julia: moment was saying our understanding of so what that word pistuo
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Julia: translates from the Greek into our English as faith and trust
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Julia: and believe. So it's always in relation to the other.
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Julia: Pestuo is always in relation to a person.
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Julia: It's not into relation into a belief system or a fact.
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Julia: And so when we think about, you know, the way I
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Julia: think the f the default that I've fallen into in my
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Julia: own Christianity or had for a long time is that I
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Julia: needed to really have this under this belief system in place,
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Julia: you know, I think of the different creeds that we believe
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Julia: in, that these credos. And do I believe in them?
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Julia: Yes, but those are facts and those are things on a
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Julia: page that I list off. But when I think about my
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Julia: relationship with Jesus, it's very personal and it's very much of
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Julia: do I who do I put at the center of my
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Julia: life? You know, he either he's Lord of my life or
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Julia: and is he lord of all of my life.
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Julia: And so what I realized very quickly is that I don't
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Julia: always put Jesus at the center of my life.
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Julia: That disciple I can put a lot of people at the
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Julia: center of my life. I can put myself, I can put
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Julia: my husband, I can put my friends, I can put my
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Julia: politics, I can put a lot of things in what I
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Julia: feel like are trustworthy at the center of my life, or
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Julia: I can put Jesus who who has only proven himself to
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Julia: be the one that is trustworthy.
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Julia: And so discipleship is if it's who we put our trust
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Julia: in, we're learning from somebody. What is the the word disciple
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Julia: just means to be a student?
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Julia: It means to who are we learning from?
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Julia: And so the real question is who are we learning from?
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Julia: And who we're learning from is who we trust and who
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Julia: we trust is who we put our faith in, and really
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Julia: who we pledge allegiance to. And so I think the question
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Julia: that we always have to start on is who are we
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Julia: putting at the center of our life?
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Julia: Who are we putting our trust in?
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Julia: Who are we putting our faith in?
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Julia: Who do we and who gets to tell us ultimately who
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Julia: we are? And what you realize pretty quickly that those are
12:34
Julia: scripts that are happening in our autobiographical memory system.
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Julia: And we're we're listening to a lot of different narratives, but
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Julia: they don't always they're not always true.
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Julia: And I'm trusting people and I'm trusting things and I'm trusting
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Julia: and I'm trusting belief systems that may not always hold up
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Julia: underwater as Jessie was talking about when she said that she
12:52
Julia: would hear things and then she would be like, wait, but
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Julia: that's not what my Bible says, or when I go to
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Julia: Jesus, that's not what he actually says.
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Julia: And what we're what is most important is that we always
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Julia: go back to Jesus. If the person at the center of
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Julia: our life is the person we trust the most, we should
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Julia: always be able to go back there and say, that is
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Julia: true, that is north, that is the center, that is the
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Julia: person that I trust most in life.
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Julia: And so
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Loren: Yeah.
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Julia: we have to align or we have to go back to
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Julia: who we put our trust in and and evaluate, am I
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Julia: putting my trust in Jesus or am I putting my trust
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Julia: in somebody else or something something else?
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Loren: Yeah, Jessie, this is interesting that Julia already brought up the
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Loren: word that I was coming to mind because I've seen this
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Loren: idea too of understanding pistuo as allegiance.
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Loren: And funny enough, I have both pistuo and credo tattooed on
13:44
Loren: my body.
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Julia: wow.
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Loren: but I think it's a different way of engaging when we
13:54
Loren: think about as an intellectual, you know, I I I assent
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Loren: to an intellectual set of beliefs.
14:02
Loren: is one thing versus putting my trust or allegiance into a
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Loren: person. How does that like talk about how that how we
14:10
Loren: interact with that differently, I suppose.
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Jessie: Yeah, I I think for me what helps me sort that
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Jessie: and understand that is how God created us to to be
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Jessie: transformed, to change, who we are when things get hard and
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Jessie: and are under pressure. So one of the interesting things that
14:27
Jessie: I learned as a wilderness guide and training other people in
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Jessie: the wilderness and then working with pastors is that we can
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Jessie: say we believe a lot of things that we have mental
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Jessie: assent to or we have certain values,
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Loren: Yeah.
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Jessie: but when things get difficult. When the pressure
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Loren: Mm-hmm.
14:45
Jessie: is on, it doesn't matter what we
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Loren: Right.
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Jessie: say we believe in or what our values are.
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Jessie: We behave under pressure and under stress.
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Jessie: We behave according to our identity.
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Jessie: Who do we
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Loren: Yeah.
14:55
Jessie: believe we are? Whether that's good or whether that's bad, whether
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Jessie: that's a a true identity or a false identity, what we
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Jessie: believe about ourselves and who we know ourselves to be is
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Jessie: how we act in that situation.
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Jessie: So When we talk about then formation and transformation, the transformation
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Jessie: can't be in those ideas. It has to be in that
15:18
Jessie: understanding of ourself. And the way that we understand ourself biologically
15:22
Jessie: is by mirroring someone else. And we're created that way to
15:25
Jessie: mirror, to know ourselves by knowing someone else.
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Jessie: And that ultimate place is supposed to be Jesus, right?
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Jessie: It's supposed to be God. I know who I am because
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Jessie: God is teaching me who He is.
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Jessie: So God is faithful. God is kind.
15:45
Jessie: God is love. God is all knowing, all powerful, and all
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Jessie: patient. Like, like in that truth, then I can go, I
15:52
Jessie: am safe. I am cared for.
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Jessie: I am protected. I am nurtured.
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Jessie: And we can understand who we are.
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Jessie: And that just has to do with the way that God
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Jessie: created our biology, our soul. And when we make what we
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Jessie: agree to, that belief system, the highest good, it it
16:16
Loren: Yeah.
16:17
Jessie: it literally stays just in our prefrontal lobe and it doesn't
16:20
Jessie: get integrated into our body. We don't live it out in
16:24
Jessie: pressure. It's not part of our identity system.
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Jessie: It's and so it's just really fragile, shallow sometimes, and And
16:31
Jessie: it's not how we just live out of our life.
16:34
Jessie: So if we can have transformation, if we can understand greater
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Jessie: who God is, and we better understand ourselves, our our true
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Jessie: I am, then when the pressure is on, when it matters,
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Jessie: when we're stressed, like that is just automatically how we behave
16:48
Jessie: and what we do. And that's I think what Christ-likeness and
16:52
Jessie: being a child of God looks like.
16:55
Jessie: Like that is an essence that comes out of us because
16:59
Jessie: it's been formed in us. through that trust relationship with God.
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Jessie: So you can't, and and in psychology we call that secure
17:06
Jessie: attachment. And you can't have relationship and secure attachment with an
17:09
Jessie: idea. If God remains a faceless
17:13
Loren: Hmm.
17:14
Jessie: concept and your belief system are just all of these, you
17:17
Jessie: know, points on a list, you can't form secure attachment in
17:20
Jessie: that, to that, which means it will never be safe.
17:23
Jessie: It'll never tell you who you are.
17:26
Jessie: It'll never be something that you find comfort and protection from
17:29
Jessie: or that makes you safe enough to be brave and curious
17:32
Jessie: and go out and innovate and explore.
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Jessie: So you just can't have secure attachment with an idea.
17:38
Jessie: It's gotta be a relationship
17:42
Loren: Hmm.
17:43
Jessie: with a face.
17:44
Loren: That's an idea. That's I'm gonna have to ponder on that.
17:47
Loren: I want to ask about emotions.
17:50
Loren: Cause y'all spend some time, Julia, talking about emotions.
17:53
Loren: And I think this fits into what Jessie just said.
17:56
Loren: Certainly, like in our last ten years or so culturally, like
17:59
Loren: we there's really been a strong emphasis on understanding and appreciating
18:02
Loren: our emotions. y'all talk about the importance of emotions, but not
18:05
Loren: like treating them as a whole story.
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Loren: Do you want to share more about that?
18:11
Julia: Yeah, emotions are a piece of our soul.
18:14
Julia: They're not our whole soul. And so our soul's the psyche
18:17
Julia: is a mind, a will, and emotions.
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Julia: It's what we choose, it's what we think, and it's what
18:23
Julia: we feel. And so what we what Discipleship needs to include
18:26
Julia: all three of those. When we think about following Jesus, we
18:29
Julia: can't ignore our emotions, we can't elevate our emotions, we can't
18:32
Julia: stuff our emotions. I recently was speaking at an event and
18:35
Julia: I was talking about emotions and I was saying, you know,
18:38
Julia: about, you know, the center of of emotion is really joy.
18:42
Julia: Like that's that's what we're born with.
18:45
Julia: You know, if you've seen the fun movie, Inside Out, you
18:48
Julia: know, we've got all these fun, you know, the th that
18:51
Julia: actually is based in real s neuroscience, you know, in which
18:54
Julia: in which you know, they consulted with someone who's done an
18:57
Julia: incredible amount of research on in emotions and th what what
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Julia: what were they? They were joy and disgust and surprise and
19:03
Julia: fear and anger and and sadness.
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Julia: And all of those are holy emotions that that when you
19:10
Julia: look at him you go, God doesn't make mistakes.
19:13
Julia: So he gave us emotions for a reason.
19:16
Julia: He gave us the Psalms so that we could understand how
19:19
Julia: to emote. And I was speaking at this event and I
19:22
Julia: I was talking about how I wanted to my face to
19:25
Julia: shine with the joy of Moses and you know like I
19:28
Julia: want my face to shine and you know I want to
19:31
Julia: and we have to be able to as, you know, Jessie
19:34
Julia: was talking about with our attachment and mirroring, like we learn
19:37
Julia: that when we're young and then we reflect that the older
19:41
Julia: that we get. And and I want my face to shine.
19:44
Julia: I want to shine of the joy of the Lord, but
19:47
Julia: what keeps me from doing that is some is these emotions
19:50
Julia: that I've grown that that I've am now processing through as
19:53
Julia: an adult. We call that, you know, in some circles they
19:56
Julia: call that emotional intelligence. But we've kind of separated out emotional
19:59
Julia: intelligence, relational intelligence, you know, all of these different IQs.
20:02
Julia: Instead of just saying that we're whole beings and it all
20:05
Julia: matters and that's that's really in our psyche.
20:09
Julia: So I was I was talking about this at an event
20:12
Julia: and a woman came up to me and she said, you
20:15
Julia: know, I was raised that the eleventh commandment in the church
20:18
Julia: was thou shalt not emote. And I think she's right.
20:21
Julia: I think that a lot of our generation was raised with
20:24
Julia: this idea that emotions are bad.
20:27
Julia: And emotions are not bad, they're amoral.
20:30
Julia: They're not good nor bad. God gave them to us.
20:33
Julia: Which me and he said that we're good.
20:36
Julia: So maybe that you know we have to say that our
20:40
Julia: emotions are good. Now our response to our emotions, what we
20:43
Julia: do with our emotions is something that we need to submit
20:46
Julia: back to God. And that's actually the discipleship process.
20:49
Julia: So instead of saying our emotions are like I shouldn't feel
20:52
Julia: this way, or I should feel that way, or let's just
20:55
Julia: be happy all the time and and I just, you know,
20:58
Julia: I say I want my face to shine, that doesn't mean
21:01
Julia: I want to operate in my gosh, everything is so great.
21:04
Julia: And you know, like that's toxic positivity.
21:08
Loren: Yeah, yeah.
21:09
Julia: But it doesn't mean that I live in this state of
21:12
Julia: of negativity all the time, too, and feeling like in this
21:15
Julia: false sense of humility. So what we what we want to
21:19
Julia: be able to do is to really be able to operate
21:22
Julia: in this what are that we're abiding in the joy of
21:26
Julia: the Lord, that whether we're in grief or whether we're in
21:29
Julia: fear, like there are actually holy and Beautiful sides to every
21:32
Julia: emotion. We we are told in scripture that the fear of
21:36
Julia: the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but we're also told
21:39
Julia: do not be afraid. So fear is not a wrong emotion.
21:43
Julia: What we fear is what's important.
21:46
Julia: Same thing with anger. We are supposed to be angry at
21:50
Julia: injustice. Jesus was angry when his father's house was being turned
21:53
Julia: into a den of thieves. Like that it was okay to
21:56
Julia: be angry. It wasn't okay to remain angry.
22:00
Julia: It's okay to be in grief, but we can't remain in
22:03
Julia: grief because then we're living in a s then we're not
22:07
Julia: r able to receive. So what we're r meant to remain
22:10
Julia: in is actually joy. And that's
22:14
Loren: Yeah.
22:15
Julia: and that's the beauty of I think what what God is
22:18
Julia: inviting us into in this particular season of the church is
22:21
Julia: that we do have a greater understanding of how our brains
22:24
Julia: operate. We do have a greater understanding of emotions.
22:27
Julia: And I think we do have a greater understanding at this
22:30
Julia: season of even this is how God forms us in story.
22:33
Julia: And the whole world is storytelling through movies, through the internet,
22:36
Julia: through marketing, everything is story. And I think and even with
22:39
Julia: AI, if you want to get into that conversation with what's
22:42
Julia: coming out, God is saying, I want you to remember who
22:45
Julia: you are in being human and recognize that you have all
22:48
Julia: of these things, your mind, your will, and your emotions, and
22:51
Julia: you get to choose who you're going to then who you
22:54
Julia: are going to become. Are you gonna follow me?
22:57
Julia: Are you going to follow someone else and what the world
23:00
Julia: says about you or what I say about you?
23:03
Julia: And he uses this mechanism to do that for us in
23:06
Julia: in discipleship.
23:10
Loren: Yeah. I do not want to get into AI for this
23:11
Loren: episode because that's a mess.
23:13
Julia: Ha ha ha
23:16
Loren: I do want to ask Jessie, Julia already mentioned it, about
23:20
Loren: y'all's interaction with James Fowler. for those unfamiliar, he was like
23:24
Loren: this religious sociologist, right? Is the sh the short of it.
23:28
Loren: I've seen like other kind of re encapsulations of that, his
23:32
Loren: stages of faith, whether it be Brian McLaren, Chuck DeGrote.
23:36
Loren: I think others have done similar type work.
23:40
Loren: Frankly, I thought yours, y'all's was like the best encapsulation and
23:44
Loren: like simplification, like that's not the right word, but understandable that
23:48
Loren: I've seen. So maybe talk a little bit about like Give
23:52
Loren: the broader overview of what you're trying to do with that
23:56
Loren: in this book.
24:01
Jessie: Yeah. I was introduced to Fowler when I was doing my
24:04
Jessie: grad work at Harvard and read read his book, Stages of
24:08
Jessie: Faith, and I I had seen those in the decade I
24:12
Jessie: had been discipling people, teaching people to be disciple makers.
24:15
Jessie: Like I read that and it it really named some things
24:19
Jessie: that I had seen, but but didn't have the language for.
24:23
Jessie: So I was really excited when I came came back from
24:26
Jessie: grad school and started teaching it to all of my wilderness
24:30
Jessie: instructors. Now they might have a college degree, they might not
24:34
Jessie: have a college degree, their college degree might be an outdoor
24:37
Jessie: wreck. so I spent a lot of time re-articulating it.
24:41
Jessie: say help putting it into to language that you didn't need
24:45
Jessie: a PhD in psychology in order to to understand.
24:48
Jessie: And I ended up framing it around these this I am
24:52
Jessie: God is kind of a dyadic relationship.
24:56
Jessie: and and again putting it in simple language that I could
24:59
Jessie: pass along, train my staff to see so that they could
25:03
Jessie: then in their conversations with the adults and with the youth
25:07
Jessie: and adults that came through the wilderness program, that they could
25:10
Jessie: minister to them in the right way.
25:14
Jessie: They could hear how they were making meaning of the world.
25:18
Jessie: They could hear where the Holy Spirit might helping might be
25:21
Jessie: helping them in a transition. And they could be just much
25:25
Jessie: more precise in how they responded and came alongside what God
25:29
Jessie: was already doing in their life.
25:32
Jessie: in the li so then when I retired from that career
25:36
Jessie: in the 15 years since, I've added in at layered in
25:40
Jessie: attachment, layered in more of the practical stuff on discipleship and
25:43
Jessie: and just kind of these other things.
25:47
Jessie: And was still teaching that. And it was a couple years
25:51
Jessie: ago I was meeting with a guy named Jim Wilder, who's
25:54
Jessie: a neurotheologian here in the area, and is essentially the one
25:58
Jessie: who really brought attachment theory into Christian discipleship.
26:02
Jessie: And I was going through it with him, asking him some
26:05
Jessie: questions about you know, just getting feedback.
26:09
Jessie: And he said, he challenged me, he said that we weren't
26:13
Jessie: teaching Fowler anymore, that this was something more.
26:16
Jessie: That this was something else, and really challenged us to put
26:20
Jessie: a name to it. And so we did, we call it
26:24
Jessie: identity formation theory. So I would say it's an evolution of
26:28
Loren: Yeah.
26:28
Jessie: from Fowler because it it brings in a lot of other
26:31
Jessie: pieces that have been discovered since the 70s.
26:34
Jessie: And yeah, the the ability, if you can't teach it to
26:37
Jessie: a high school kid, then I don't know if you've gotten
26:41
Jessie: it yet. So always trying to work.
26:44
Jessie: the language and the idea and the concept and and the
26:47
Jessie: communication of it into a very practical, actionable kind of thing.
26:51
Jessie: So that that identity formation theory is is in the book
26:54
Jessie: and part of what we want to help give the body
26:57
Jessie: of Christ to just be like, okay, we wanna be disciple
27:00
Jessie: makers and how you understand who you are and how you
27:04
Jessie: understand who God is changes over your life.
27:07
Jessie: And one phase isn't better than the other, one phase isn't
27:10
Jessie: more arrived than the other. They're just completely different ways of
27:14
Jessie: make of of interacting with the world and making meaning of
27:17
Jessie: the world. So let's just be with people where the Holy
27:20
Jessie: Spirit is already moving.
27:24
Loren: I wanna dive into this because I think this was what
27:27
Loren: was so intriguing to me is I maybe I read Foul
27:30
Loren: or Wrong and maybe I've read since articulations of Fowler Wrong,
27:33
Loren: but it seemed like to me something you all really flush
27:36
Loren: out is there's idea like it seems like to me I've
27:39
Loren: always seen like getting to stage six is like the ultimate.
27:42
Loren: Like if you're stage six, then you've really arrived spiritually.
27:45
Loren: And for you all, it's not that.
27:48
Loren: Like I I thought it was f quite like quite Startling.
27:51
Loren: I don't know, that's too strong a word, but it quite
27:54
Loren: interesting. You all suggest I can't remember if it was like
27:57
Loren: you can be healthy at stage three or two.
28:00
Loren: I can't remember. Yeah, I found that
28:03
Jessie: Yeah.
28:03
Loren: quite intriguing.
28:06
Jessie: Yes.
28:06
Julia: That's something we wrestled through. Yeah, we we wrestled through that
28:09
Julia: because we said, Can can there be spiritually mature people at
28:12
Julia: phase we call you know, phase three, phase four, phase five?
28:16
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
28:18
Julia: And and as you'll s as you so f between phase
28:21
Julia: three and phase four is a what we call an identity
28:24
Julia: crisis where you have to leave home emotionally and you have
28:27
Julia: to leave home physically. the same thing between phase four and
28:30
Julia: phase five. And that that first one typically happens when people
28:34
Julia: leave and go to college. And so, you know, it's like
28:37
Julia: that, okay, I'm gonna leave home.
28:40
Julia: But what if you never go away to school?
28:43
Julia: What if you stay in the same the same home?
28:46
Julia: So I I saw this when I visited different Guatemalan villages
28:50
Julia: a number of years ago. They've been in the same village
28:53
Julia: for their entire, you know. their entire history for, you know,
28:56
Julia: hundreds of years. And we're coming in as Americans and bringing
28:59
Julia: in, we were working with an organization that was was doing
29:02
Julia: some development in the areas. And so they were bringing in
29:06
Julia: a new way of thinking and a new way of living.
29:09
Julia: So according to Fowler, they're in a stage three of their
29:12
Julia: development. They are in a group think.
29:15
Julia: They have no individual identity. And
29:19
Loren: Right. Right.
29:22
Julia: really up until a hundred years ago, 150 years ago, most
29:25
Julia: people never moved within 10 miles of where they grew up.
29:28
Julia: And so we actually were really thinking through, okay, what what
29:32
Julia: what does this look like and why would God be at
29:35
Julia: bringing this to the world at this time in history?
29:38
Julia: Because God and it came we came to the conclusion that
29:42
Julia: it was because at this time in history between globalization, between
29:45
Julia: transportation, between everything that's happening, God is saying, I want to
29:48
Julia: I want to show you that there are there are phases
29:52
Julia: in which we're developed, but this isn't you're not wrong.
29:55
Julia: at this stage. You're not wrong at this stage.
29:58
Julia: You're not wrong. I'm not going to shame the body of
30:02
Julia: Christ. What I'm actually going to do is just name some
30:05
Julia: things as Jessie said so that there could be we could
30:09
Julia: understand how we make meaning of that area and you know
30:12
Julia: that stage that we're in. And so we're not what we
30:15
Julia: want to not do is say we're climbing a ladder, let's
30:19
Julia: get here. We're saying wherever God has us, let's have real
30:22
Julia: conversations. And then for the church, let's recognize where people are
30:25
Julia: at in that phase of and begin to look at our
30:29
Julia: discipleship through those different lenses so that we can begin to
30:32
Julia: create spaces that can accommodate people at every phase of their
30:35
Julia: development because some people are g leaving the church because they
30:39
Julia: can't actually hold space with where they're at in their spiritual
30:42
Julia: journey.
30:46
Loren: Yeah, I wanna stay on this because I think it's important
30:49
Loren: and one of the reasons why I really appreciate having a
30:53
Loren: diversity of voices on this podcast because I think this gets
30:56
Loren: into something I see. So again, this is broad brush here,
31:00
Loren: so forgive me, but like broadly speaking, like within mainline process
31:03
Loren: and traditions, it seems like and I'll use a wor universal
31:07
Loren: we since I identify in that context, like we are like
31:11
Loren: encouraging people to get to like four, five and and six,
31:14
Loren: right? And we kind of Again, broad brush look down on
31:18
Loren: evangelical traditions who we might say are like at twos or
31:21
Loren: threes. so again, I I appreciate Jessie is like britting her
31:25
Loren: teeth at me. So A, you're welcome to push back, but
31:29
Loren: I think what I this is what I hear more of
31:32
Loren: how hear more about like how can we structure like A,
31:36
Loren: is it possible to have a church where the two through
31:39
Loren: sixes are welcome? and If yes, tell me what that looks
31:43
Loren: like. If not, tell me what we should do differently.
31:47
Jessie: Yeah, I love I love this question and this conversation.
31:49
Jessie: That's why I was getting really excited.
31:52
Jessie: Cause it's not it's not necessarily pushback as much as it
31:55
Jessie: is n nuance and seeing the beauty of the diversity of
31:58
Jessie: the body of Christ and the and what different faith traditions
32:01
Jessie: bring and why we're actually a whole body and we're better
32:04
Loren: Yes.
32:05
Jessie: together is like most evangelical churches are designed for phase four.
32:08
Jessie: Most discipleship
32:11
Loren: Hm.
32:11
Jessie: materials are designed for phase four.
32:13
Jessie: And for those who haven't read the book, phase four is
32:16
Jessie: an I am what I choose and God is my own.
32:18
Jessie: And it's an apologetics phase, it's a value phase, it's an
32:21
Jessie: either-or, let's have the formula, let's have the structure.
32:24
Jessie: That's I I'm going to choose what I believe in.
32:26
Jessie: I'm going to choose my definition of mercy.
32:29
Jessie: I'm to choose my theology stream.
32:32
Jessie: And that's an important place to be if you're coming out
32:34
Jessie: of a group. identity because you're because you're owning your own
32:37
Jessie: identity. And and we had
32:40
Loren: Yeah.
32:41
Jessie: a lot of discipleship materials that we want people to be
32:44
Jessie: there, right? We're like, make Jesus your own, make your faith
32:47
Jessie: your own. what happens then is when we have evangelical churches
32:50
Jessie: designed around that, because there's no symbol, there's no ritual, there's
32:53
Jessie: no sacrament.
32:56
Loren: Mm. Yeah.
32:59
Jessie: But but without those things, then you don't actually disciple a
33:02
Jessie: phase three person. So phase three needs the symbol, needs the
33:06
Jessie: ritual, needs the sacrament. And a lot of the mainline traditions
33:09
Jessie: had that, which allowed people to be discipled through phase three.
33:13
Jessie: And then as people moved into a phase four, maybe you
33:17
Jessie: know they liked the Latin Mass, or maybe they didn't like
33:20
Jessie: a Latin mass, right? You you kind of got to make
33:24
Jessie: choices on things. but it wasn't structured to get people there.
33:28
Jessie: That's why for evangelicals you have so many people being ex-vangelical,
33:31
Jessie: is because they weren't discipled appropriately for their phase of meaning
33:35
Jessie: making when they were teenagers. They were handed things too early
33:39
Jessie: and they weren't handed the right things.
33:42
Jessie: So they weren't structured for their discipleship journey throughout the different
33:46
Jessie: phases that that human identity formation goes through.
33:50
Jessie: But You can be stuck somewhere.
33:53
Jessie: You can have a church that's stuck somewhere.
33:57
Jessie: You can have a faith tradition that highlights one part and
34:01
Jessie: not another. And so we need each other.
34:04
Jessie: We need the wholeness. You know, contemplative practices are very soothing
34:08
Jessie: for phase five. But if you're in because you're like, I
34:12
Jessie: need the depth, I need the mystery, I wanna learn about
34:15
Jessie: the desert mothers and fathers. But if you're action-oriented, values-oriented phase
34:19
Jessie: four, you're gonna be like, Dude, that's too slow and boring.
34:23
Jessie: We got to do something here.
34:26
Jessie: So we need the whole body of Christ in these different
34:30
Jessie: perspectives. They're just different ways of making meaning.
34:34
Jessie: Like they're just increased complexity in how we handle that.
34:37
Jessie: And more complexity doesn't mean you're better, you're wiser, or you're
34:41
Jessie: more mature. It just means there's more complexity.
34:45
Jessie: So I am in a church that we support intentionally phase
34:48
Jessie: two through phase five. Phase six is really h hard that
34:52
Jessie: you find people there, and and a lot
34:56
Loren: Yeah.
34:56
Jessie: of people actually don't come to church.
34:57
Jessie: But
34:58
Loren: Yeah.
35:00
Jessie: you know, when I craft a sermon, I'm saying I I
35:02
Jessie: know what my key points are, and I'm gonna say them
35:04
Jessie: in a way that lands with phase three, in a way
35:07
Jessie: that lands with phase four, in a way that lands with
35:09
Jessie: phase five. Which means I'm gonna talk about who we are.
35:11
Jessie: Then I'm gonna talk about what you do, and then I'm
35:14
Jessie: gonna talk about how you know what?
35:16
Jessie: We don't actually know anything. There's a lot of
35:19
Loren: Ha ha.
35:20
Jessie: mystery and wonder. And so I even craft my my discipleship
35:24
Jessie: and my sermons, which those are two different things, but I
35:28
Jessie: craft those in ways that they could land with wherever somebody
35:32
Jessie: is, and we can continue to be a body together across
35:36
Jessie: the different generations that we have in our church.
35:40
Jessie: So it takes intentionality, but it's totally possible.
35:44
Loren: Okay. Cause I just I feel like maybe this is my
35:48
Loren: own stuff. Like Julia, I feel like there's so much like
35:52
Loren: it is this why there's tends to be so much co
35:56
Loren: conflict amongst Christian denominations 'cause we're not recognizing different traditions like
36:00
Loren: that we're on we're we're emphasizing different parts of the the
36:04
Loren: journey. And I really appreciate what Jessie said about complexity doesn't
36:08
Loren: necessarily mean like superiority.
36:13
Julia: Right. It it's really the different postures at which the different
36:16
Julia: denominations are approaching things. Whether they realize it or not.
36:19
Julia: Like there there are things that they're that the different denominations
36:22
Julia: do. that you know if you're in Catholicism you're gonna have
36:26
Julia: very you're gonna have a lot of ritual.
36:29
Julia: There's a lot there's a big a lot of young people
36:32
Julia: that I personally know that are going back to more traditional
36:35
Julia: ways of of operating because they want they want that ritual.
36:39
Julia: They want those rites of passage.
36:42
Julia: And I'm even seeing it with the with you know I'll
36:45
Julia: say my own kids having come come through COVID, they lost
36:49
Julia: out on a lot of the rites of passage because they
36:52
Julia: were in their teenage years during COVID.
36:55
Julia: And so I I'm recognizing that right now as they're becoming
36:58
Julia: young adults, going, they actually miss that part of their formation,
37:02
Julia: which is why they're so craving it right now.
37:05
Julia: And we don't we all need that as we're being formed,
37:08
Julia: whether we realize it or not and whether we've ever named
37:11
Julia: it or not. You know, hit throughout history.
37:15
Julia: there were different cultures had these rites of passage.
37:18
Julia: You know, there's quitineeras, there's, you know, the there's brah mitzvahs,
37:21
Julia: there's different things that different cultures have.
37:25
Julia: And in the United States, we tend to not have those
37:28
Julia: sames those sames traditional rituals. but we did have the going
37:31
Julia: to college and, you know, the the this freedom that seems
37:34
Julia: to be in our narrative in the United States.
37:38
Julia: And so what we really realize is that there's all these
37:41
Julia: cultural narratives that are happening. And I think what happened during
37:44
Julia: COVID is that all those narratives kind of got jumbled together
37:47
Julia: and now we're actually trying to make sense of things in
37:51
Julia: a new way and going, everything I knew doesn't work anymore.
37:54
Julia: You know, that we used to all watch the same television
37:57
Julia: shows
38:01
Loren: Right.
38:02
Julia: on television, you know, every week.
38:05
Julia: And they'd come out once a week.
38:08
Julia: Now they come out, they're dumped on a day, and we
38:11
Julia: binge watch them and our kids have already watched them, you
38:15
Julia: know, my kids always joke because my husband, you know, they
38:18
Julia: watch Snapchat and TikTok. And then I'm on Instagram and my
38:21
Julia: husband's on Facebook, and they're always telling me that I'm a
38:25
Julia: year behind and my husband's three years behind what was really
38:28
Julia: trendy. And that's probably true. because things are moving through that
38:31
Julia: quickly in terms of narratives that are happening all around us.
38:34
Julia: And so I think, you know, when With all of the
38:38
Julia: di the different denominations that we have and you know, I
38:41
Julia: s I saw it when I went when I was getting
38:44
Julia: my master's at Wheaton, we were talking about the different denominations
38:48
Julia: and just the postures that people have.
38:51
Julia: And I think for the first time I really had a
38:54
Julia: glimpse about how people's theology, their eschatology really affects what they
38:57
Julia: s how they see the world.
39:01
Julia: If you feel like Jesus is coming again tomorrow.
39:04
Julia: versus Jesus it that we're living in the all millennial reign
39:07
Julia: of Christ, it gives you a very different perspective with how
39:11
Julia: you approach earth. And the you know it's it's our posture
39:14
Julia: towards people though never changes. And the way that God speaks
39:17
Julia: never changes. And he meets every generation throughout the Bible.
39:21
Julia: He has the same narrative that that he is king That
39:24
Julia: he is Lord and that we're to love the Lord our
39:27
Julia: God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength in every
39:30
Julia: generation. And so we get lost on a lot of the
39:34
Julia: particulars and the theological conversations, but the way we're actually formed
39:37
Julia: and the way that we're actually making meaning in it throughout
39:40
Julia: our life is through this idea of what stories are we
39:44
Julia: listening to? And that never changes.
39:47
Julia: we're constantly needing to take a look back at what those
39:50
Julia: these stories are really narrating us.
39:53
Julia: and then hopefully get to a place where we're saying, God's
39:57
Julia: actually the one that's narrating our story.
40:00
Julia: And let's allow him to reinterpret our lives through us.
40:03
Julia: And let's allow him to bring meaning to us and bring
40:07
Julia: meaning to other people. And what does the story actually look
40:10
Julia: like through his lens, not through our lens?
40:13
Julia: And I think
40:17
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
40:19
Julia: it'll be interesting to see what happens in denominations in the
40:21
Julia: in the coming decades. I think there's
40:23
Loren: Well
40:24
Julia: going to be some shifts that take place because Jesus is
40:28
Julia: becoming the paradigm. And not our divisions.
40:32
Loren: Yeah. Well, I wanna ask more about this, but for sake
40:35
Loren: of time, Jessie, let me ask you one more question before
40:38
Loren: we go into closing questions here.
40:41
Loren: talk briefly if you can just about forgiveness and the power
40:44
Loren: and importance of forgiveness.
40:47
Jessie: Yeah. you know, it's it's it's fascinating to me of all
40:50
Jessie: the spiritual disciplines that, you know, we talk about or even
40:54
Jessie: are teaching teaching about, or you can get a Bible study
40:57
Jessie: about, forgiveness, repentance, and repair just kind of isn't in there.
41:01
Jessie: there might be a little bit of a thing, but you
41:04
Jessie: know, hey, you're supposed to forgive, but there but instead we
41:08
Jessie: have a culture right now that is very anti forgiveness and
41:11
Jessie: very hostile towards repair. I don't get the most pushback I
41:15
Jessie: get on anything that I teach is around reconciliation.
41:18
Jessie: And everyone treats everyone else as if they're a narcissist and
41:22
Jessie: a physical abuser and should be in jail.
41:25
Jessie: And that's and that is because we are conditioned right now
41:29
Jessie: to look at everybody as an enemy.
41:32
Jessie: And we're living
41:36
Loren: Yeah.
41:37
Jessie: in enemy mode, what Jim Wilder calls enemy mode.
41:39
Jessie: And enemy mode is this place where you're evalu you're disconnected
41:42
Jessie: from and evaluating what's in front of you as a threat.
41:45
Jessie: And and
41:48
Loren: Yeah.
41:48
Jessie: it's a brain state. Like your brain is created to do
41:51
Jessie: this for survival. The problem is is that when you have
41:54
Jessie: that force field up, when you're disconnected and you have this
41:57
Jessie: like self-protection force field up, not only can you not receive
42:00
Jessie: from the person in front of you, but you also can't
42:03
Jessie: receive from God. You cannot hear God unless like the the
42:06
Jessie: Holy Spirit like really comes in and like does this a
42:10
Jessie: little overpowering kind of thing. But otherwise you cannot hear God
42:13
Jessie: in that state. Which means we are not hearing God because
42:16
Jessie: we're and we're living in conflict.
42:19
Jessie: What changes that, what takes us out of enemy mode and
42:22
Jessie: allows us to receive both from another person and from the
42:25
Jessie: Lord is forgiveness. So we have to
42:29
Loren: Mm. Mm-hmm.
42:30
Jessie: say, you know what? I perceived that you came at me
42:33
Jessie: and you were not for me, even if that actually wasn't
42:37
Jessie: what the person like was doing.
42:40
Jessie: It's just our perception of the situation.
42:44
Jessie: We need to forgive that. We need to forgive them for
42:48
Jessie: even what we perceive that they did so that we can
42:51
Jessie: come out of enemy mode and reconnect and and receive from
42:55
Jessie: them. So so the reason why God is so intense in
42:58
Jessie: scripture about forgiveness is because it cuts us off from Him.
43:02
Jessie: And He died on the cross to like overcome that that
43:06
Jessie: separation, to to like connect with us.
43:09
Jessie: And when we sit in unforgiveness, we are willfully disconnecting from
43:13
Jessie: God and and making that, you know, 'cause God's not gonna
43:16
Jessie: override that will. Like he's we are choosing rebellion when we're
43:20
Jessie: sitting in unforgiveness. And so forgiveness is the
43:24
Loren: Yeah, see this is I'm trying to jump in here.
43:27
Jessie: op is the open. Yeah.
43:30
Loren: I'm trying jump in here, but th I feel like this
43:33
Loren: is again, this is anecdotally for me working as a hospital
43:36
Loren: chaplain, interacting with people on a small scale.
43:39
Loren: Like this is what I see.
43:42
Loren: I think what you're naming is like people have to choose
43:45
Loren: to receive forgiveness for themselves, like to be r told they're
43:48
Loren: forgiven and receive that forgiveness from God before they can then
43:51
Loren: forgive others. Like is that track with what you're seeing?
43:55
Jessie: Well, there's some interesting research, yes, and there's interesting research
43:59
Loren: Okay.
43:59
Jessie: out there that we become actually addicted in brain cycles to
44:02
Jessie: offense. And the thing
44:06
Loren: Yeah.
44:07
Jessie: like so so a non-believer, so so if we take it
44:10
Jessie: out of the faith-based world, we become addicted to offense.
44:13
Jessie: It it triggers some addiction cycles in us, and we stay
44:16
Loren: Mm-hmm.
44:16
Jessie: and rehearse offense because it gives us that that dopamine hit.
44:19
Jessie: Now, the anecdote to that To retaliation, to anger, to strife
44:22
Jessie: is forgiveness. And you can choose that.
44:25
Jessie: I've seen people choose that who are not a faith-based per
44:28
Jessie: faith based person. They they choose it because they're maybe more
44:31
Jessie: humanist or whatever. But a believer, a Christian who has received
44:35
Jessie: that has no excuse to not forgive the person in front
44:38
Jessie: of them, to not forgive the offense.
44:41
Jessie: And I think that that is that is the I am
44:44
Jessie: forgiven. God is a forgiving God.
44:47
Jessie: I am forgiven. Therefore I forgive.
44:50
Jessie: Then forgiveness isn't an idea. It isn't
44:54
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
44:58
Jessie: something that spiritual gurus do, you know, it isn't this high
45:01
Jessie: state of maturity. And it's just super important for for us,
45:05
Jessie: and it's actually something that God requires and commands of us.
45:08
Jessie: so even on a biological level, if you think about an
45:12
Jessie: infant, their first enemy is their parent or their caregiver.
45:16
Jessie: Who doesn't take care of them the way that they want.
45:19
Jessie: It doesn't, it, you know, thinks that they need a diaper
45:23
Jessie: change when they're cold, it doesn't feed them fast enough.
45:27
Jessie: And even an infant actually has to experience enemy love, forgiveness,
45:30
Jessie: and repair with their caregiver in order to receive food, nutrients,
45:34
Jessie: love, you know, in order to even grow.
45:38
Jessie: So it's something that God designed in us that we biologically
45:41
Jessie: have to do and we learn from the moment that we're
45:45
Jessie: born. So it's just
45:49
Loren: You know?
45:50
Jessie: intense. It's super intense.
45:51
Loren: That's really we need to get we need to get I
45:53
Loren: need to wrap here. But like I'm
45:55
Jessie: Yeah.
45:56
Loren: thinking about this, like I'm thinking about like as a father,
45:58
Loren: obviously my interactions with my kids are different.
46:01
Loren: And I didn't quite track the enemy idea as I was
46:04
Loren: reading your book, but it makes sense here because like for
46:07
Loren: as a father, like when I when I'm picking up my
46:09
Loren: baby, like they're much older now and don't like me for
46:12
Loren: different reasons but like I'm not mom, like I can't immediately
46:15
Loren: provide the goods. So I think what you're saying tracks Like
46:18
Loren: in my own experiences, I think about it because like like
46:20
Loren: they have to recognize like I'm not the enemy, I am
46:23
Loren: trying to help them, even though I'm not mom and don't
46:26
Loren: have the immediate goods what they often want.
46:29
Loren: Yeah, yeah.
46:32
Julia: Ca can I just add that before forgiveness is confession and
46:34
Julia: I think it's really
46:37
Loren: Yeah.
46:37
Julia: and this is the connection with emotions that we have to
46:39
Julia: be able to confess the way we're actually feeling about something
46:42
Julia: or what we're actually
46:45
Loren: Mm.
46:45
Julia: afraid of before we can even walk into forgiveness and into
46:48
Julia: pr repentance and repair. And when we do that, that process
46:51
Julia: actually works. That's what is biblical.
46:54
Julia: I mean what Ezra, Nehemiah, like all throughout the scripture, it
46:57
Julia: is about confession and then forgiveness.
47:00
Julia: And that's really when we begin to understand forgiveness and we
47:03
Julia: begin to, you know, this is why when Jesus said, Forgive,
47:06
Julia: and you will be forgiven, it's we have to then choose
47:09
Julia: to forgive others by letting off the offense.
47:13
Julia: And that's literally cutting off the effects of what they have
47:16
Julia: done against us and saying, I will no longer carry this.
47:19
Julia: Or a lot of times when I'm praying with people, I
47:22
Julia: will say, I want you to say this as an act
47:25
Julia: there's no magic in the words, but as an act of
47:28
Julia: obedience to Christ, I choose to forgive this person for filling
47:31
Julia: the blank and cut off the effects that it has had
47:34
Julia: over my life. And there's something powerful and more so than
47:37
Julia: just saying, I forgive you. It's let's let it go.
47:41
Loren: Yeah, yeah. That's good stuff too.
47:44
Loren: Well, I I have to Yeah.
47:47
Loren: I'm sorry I have to cut us off because I'm running
47:50
Loren: out of time myself here. But the book is becoming good
47:53
Loren: news. I wanna hear it real quick though.
47:56
Loren: I'm gonna make you go through the gauntlet of my closing
47:59
Loren: questions. so take these quickly as you want, I suppose.
48:02
Loren: But if you're Pope for a day, Julia, like what are
48:05
Loren: you doing with that day?
48:08
Julia: I'm teaching people to hear from God.
48:13
Loren: Okay, that works. That works. Jessie, who's a theologian or historical
48:18
Loren: Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
48:23
Jessie: Teresa of Avilla.
48:25
Loren: Okay, that's a deep pull.
48:28
Jessie: She seems amazing. I'd love to have a conversation with her.
48:31
Loren: Yeah, I've not heard that since Chuck DeGroat was on.
48:34
Loren: so you might talk to him about that if you don't
48:38
Loren: know Chuck. Julia, what do you think history will remember from
48:42
Loren: our current time and place?
48:46
Julia: I think they're going to remember that this was the time
48:48
Julia: in which we really remembered what it means to be a
48:51
Julia: human being in in our faith and what it means
48:54
Loren: Hmm.
48:55
Julia: to actually res what what the what really that means when
48:58
Julia: God created humanity.
49:02
Loren: Hmm. That's intriguing. That's intriguing. Let me let you both answer
49:08
Loren: this. what do you hope for the future of Christianity?
49:14
Jessie: hope that we actually can start to talk about a bride
49:16
Jessie: and
49:18
Loren: Hmm.
49:19
Jessie: and think about what does it mean.
49:21
Jessie: Not only that we would be together, but that we would
49:23
Jessie: be beautiful in that reconciliation,
49:25
Loren: Hmm.
49:26
Jessie: in that unity.
49:28
Julia: Yeah, and I hope that every person on earth knows who
49:31
Julia: Jesus says that they are and how he calls them by
49:34
Julia: name.
49:38
Loren: Yeah, that's good, man. That's good.
49:41
Loren: That's good. share how folks can get the book, connect with
49:44
Loren: you both, all that stuff.
49:48
Julia: Yeah, we're available at becoming goodnews dot com.
49:51
Julia: Jessie's on Instagram and so am I and and Jesse's available
49:54
Julia: at whoology.co and dot co and we would love to connect
49:57
Julia: with you.
50:01
Jessie: And you can get the book on Amazon or wherever your
50:03
Jessie: books are sold.
50:05
Loren: Great, great. Well, I really appreciate your time.
50:07
Loren: I wish we had more time, frankly, but I have to
50:09
Loren: move on to other things, unfortunately.
50:12
Loren: But one recommend the book and thanks for your time.
50:14
Loren: We always leave folks with a word of peace.
50:16
Loren: So may God's peace be with you.
50:19
Julia: And yeah.