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The Lunch Discussion: From Crime Scenes to Calm Seas: Reinventing Retirement · The Discussion Podcast

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This is the Late Late Lunch Show with Rod Maxwell. Supported by...
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That's for you, Rod. Tower bed learning in nature's playground.
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So today on the Late Late Lunch Show, we're continuing some conversations about
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life after work, life in retirement. I'm talking to somebody who I've known...
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Definitely 50 odd years. We went to school together in different chapters.
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We even sang in the same choir, would you please, together.
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His name's Keith McCour. We're originally from my hometown of Downpatrick,
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now living in England. Keith, what about you?
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Morning, how are you? I'm all right.
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This is the second time we've tried to do this interview because the first time
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we spent about an hour and 20 minutes just catching up because I don't think
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we've spoken in 30 years.
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Well, it's certainly a good few years. I think I saw you about maybe 10 years
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ago, I think, at one of the Christmas services.
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But after that, yeah, we haven't seen for a long time yet. Yeah,
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God, the Christmas services. But that's actually how our generation back home
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would meet up, the Christmas Eve service, wasn't it? It was.
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It's an ongoing thing, and it was certainly in our family, it was a tradition.
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Head off to Down Cathedral and Down Patrick, even when I'm over here,
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we go back home for that, you know?
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No, our early days of up until teenage, they sort of ran in parallel because,
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we started the primary school. You were a year above me and your brother Gary was a year below me.
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And then we joined the same choir and sang in the same cathedral choir for a
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long time, went to the same grammar school.
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The only thing you did differently, you went to a different scout group to me.
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You went to the posh scout group. I went to the council state scout group.
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But it's, and then, like a lot of things, you don't see each other for years
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then. It's sort of, you go off into the inter.
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And that seems to be the gift of the Irish, isn't it? We sort of just go off
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and distribute ourselves across the world in a way.
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Well, certainly, even in my own family, we're at the four corners of the world.
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My brother's in Australia, my sister's in Australia.
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I've been all over the world sort of my career. And then my other sister's over
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just outside London now. So even in our own family, like my mother wonders what
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she's actually done to this, to send us so far away.
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And yet, although we grew up in the Troubles,
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You know, where we lived in Dow Patrick, it had a few incidents and we know
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those, but actually we lived in relative quiet in some ways, didn't we?
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Yeah, we didn't. We didn't see, you know, we knew it was all going on around
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us and, you know, obviously different incidents happened to us and people we know.
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But, you know, we grew up very happily. I spent most of my time at Dow Patrick
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Cricket Club and just had an absolute ball. And the scouts, like you say,
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you know, the award-winning scout troop, I have to say.
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Yeah, you were actually, you're all very, very, very competitive.
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And I still think you are actually, if I think about Richard now.
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So, but I mean, then you scatter off. I mean, if you think you talked about
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your brother and where he is and the other siblings. And then we think about
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Tara, for example, went to Dubai and people just went off.
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And now we're at a stage in our lives where we're sort of consolidating.
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People are starting to retire. You've retired. Garris retired.
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Stephen's partially retired.
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I think Richard's the only one who's actually working in Gary.
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And now it's almost like, I don't know, it's almost like things are bringing
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us back together again. It's rather strange. Well, we've got a bit of time.
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Life's very busy when you find you're working and you're consumed by what your
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job is or what your next priority seems to be.
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And it's very easy to lose touch with people, you know. And then you find you
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sort of come back together later in life and you meet up for a drink or whatever,
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and then you re-engage again.
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And then, you know, it's that time of life where, you know, we're having a great
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time. We've got the time and the freedom to do it now. So, you know,
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Richard was out sailing with me last week. First time he's been out,
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you know, sailing with his boys with us, you know, had an absolute ball.
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So it's great to have the time to do these things.
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Life passed very quickly. You know, I didn't realize I was going to be 57 all
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of a sudden when I was 18. I left home at 18 and can't believe how quickly it's going, you know.
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It is remarkable. But the other thing I find is that even after all those years.
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The things you did with that cohort of friends when you were teenagers actually
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stay with you a lot longer than many other people you meet subsequently in life.
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Yeah i think i think because we were in down patrick really because our social
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scene was probably relatively small we're in a smaller community so you got
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to know each other quite well and you spent most of your time with each other so you
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know you can have many many years apart but when you come back together it just
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feels like yesterday again you know you just sort of head off again without
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any problem at all so it's nice and it is it just feels like yesterday actually doesn't it you know,
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but we're going to talk about retirement but before that we'll take a break
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and then we'll talk about what you did because you've had quite a career,
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and one of those careers I think that actually can continue in different guises,
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which I think is what you're doing.
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But you're also, you mentioned a bit of sailing. So we're talking today to Keith
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McCubrey, we're talking about life after work.
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We're talking about a new definition of retirement and it's a bit of an exploration
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and a little bit of thought sharing on the whole thing of retirement.
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I think it's totally different now compared to our parents' age.
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We'll take a break We'll be back with Keith in a couple of minutes' time.
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You're listening to The Late Late Lunch Show. Back to the Garden Childcare,
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where little explorers grow naturally.
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Today on the Late Late Lunch Show, we're on the topic of retirement.
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And I actually have been 10 years, it'll be 10 years in October since I last worked.
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My last working day was something like the 29th of September 2016.
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And that's the day that I realized there was something wrong with me.
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And I came home early from London and I haven't worked professionally in that time at all.
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But Keith, I'm busier now than I've ever been in some ways. You know,
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I like to be busy and I've had to define retirement differently.
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You had a very busy career.
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You were involved in policing and the hours in that would have been unbelievable, for example.
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I mean, it's different points of the career where I was away from home,
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you know, for long periods of time.
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And, you know, when I was over in Belfast and I was heading up sort of murder
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investigation teams there in
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Belfast, then, you know, I was dealing with a loyalist feud at one point.
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And I remember being in the office for virtually two weeks and had a bed in
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the office and I would come home to get my shirts and go back to work again
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but my wife didn't see me for a couple of weeks at a time and various times
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I've been away and big investigations or abroad for a long period of time and.
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I did a stint in Afghanistan and I was only getting home every two to three
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months really from that sort of period so yeah, it's been a busy life and all-consuming.
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Do you think that because of where we grew up from the times we grew up that we had,
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a view of a work ethic which is probably a bit twisted because my wife certainly
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thinks that you know my work ethic was was a bit twisted and i was very much
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getting my head down and i think some of it was,
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every opportunity was a great opportunity just go for it you know so that was
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what my dad used to say and you know he was a postman he basically said
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you get any opportunity you just go for it would you think we were maybe our
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generation were comparatively naive about work and work ethic, and we just went for it.
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It's possibly. I mean, I think it probably depends on the career that you're
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in. And I know in policing, when I joined policing, you know,
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if you wanted to progress and get through the ranks and get into different jobs,
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you had to be seen to put the effort in.
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You had to be seen to be reliable. You had to be seen to be capable,
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really. And then therefore you put the extra hours in to do that,
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you know. So, you know, I certainly worked hard in my younger years to get to where I want to be.
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And then it's like you say, you know, I ended up in a very sort of specialist
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role within police and in quite a covert area.
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And, you know, you go through one door and you don't really realize these other doors exist.
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And it's in a very much in a covert and secret world that you don't really know
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is there. And when one door opens and you're through that door,
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then these other opportunities come up and you keep going down the tunnel of
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opportunities because you want to see where it takes you. You know,
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I've been very lucky, really.
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And I think that in some ways that means that your career doesn't feel like
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this one big long conveyor belt because you're getting new opportunities,
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you're in different situations, you might be using the same skills,
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but you're being tested differently.
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I've had a really very career. I mean, I started, I left home when I was 18
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and a half, joined the Metropolitan Police, mainly because my mother didn't
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want me to join the RUC really back in the day. Nobody did?
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Yeah, yeah. But it was the best decision I ever did. I went to London when I
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was young and I had an absolute ball living a single man's life in London,
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met my future wife when I was there and that sort of stuff.
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But if I think about what I've done in the career, I've done uniform,
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I've been a police firearms officer and sniper, I've been in the CID,
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I've trained up to the highest level murder investigation, I've been SIOs and murders.
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I've moved, I went into counter-terrorism. I was head of counter-terrorism down
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in the southwest of England. And from that, you know, the doors opened up.
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I was posted. I was out in America working in covert agencies in Washington on behalf of the UK.
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I was running drugs operations and investigations out of Miami down in Colombia
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and Venezuela and seizing tons and tons of drugs.
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And then came back and then came back to the UK and then ended up being asked
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to go out to Afghanistan, headed up a counter-terrorism investigation sort of in Afghanistan.
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And then just before I finished my career, I took over as head of counter-terrorism
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liaison for Africa and was posted out in Nairobi and did all of that.
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So I ran all the sort of liaison work or investigations on behalf of the UK
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out in Africa regularly on behalf of the counter-terrorism command.
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So it's been all over the world really as a result of it.
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But again, these doors open and you don't realize they're there and these opportunities
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exist. So it's been a busy but really varied career. And I've had the opportunity
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in policing to do so much.
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It's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege, really. I've absolutely loved
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every bit of it. Yeah. And.
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When did you start thinking, right, how do I need to prepare for life after core employment?
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When did that start to dawn on you? Well, policing's a bit different because
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you have a 30-year career, really, in place and your pension is sort of based
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on 30 years. So you always know when you're heading up towards your 30 years, you're,
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You can stay on, of course, you can stay on and go beyond your 30 years,
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but you start thinking about that sort of maybe a couple of years out,
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two or three years out. You don't want to think about it too far in advance
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because you don't want to wish your life away as such.
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But certainly the time I was moving out to Africa, I realised that sort of in
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the last few years of my policing career, and then you start thinking about what you want to do.
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But I was, again, very lucky, again, through my work in Africa.
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You know, I met people from the United Nations, and I wasn't headhunter as such,
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but I was certainly made aware of vacancies that were coming for that.
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So I retired on one day from policing, and the very next day I started as head
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of investigations for one of the United Nations special tribunals for counterterrorism.
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Again, it was the special tribunal for Lebanon, so I went to The Hague,
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immediately retired one day and started a new career the next day.
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It wasn't a very long career, but it was just, it's in that sort of area of
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expertise that I was in, so it didn't feel like so much of a transition.
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It just felt like a move across. but I'd have placed him into another investigative
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role. So very lucky again.
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I'm going to take a break. I want to come back and ask you about that because
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I'm going to ask you about imposter syndrome a little bit, right?
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Because slightly on a tangent, but it's all linked. So today we're talking about retirement.
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We're talking about life after work. And I'm talking with somebody I've known
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since, I think actually we were probably four years of age when we would have been in the same area.
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So that's like, that's come up 52 years. I talked to Keith McCubrey,
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who has been officially retired for a number of years, but like so many people,
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never really finish working.
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We'll take a break. We'll be back in a couple of minutes' time.
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You're listening to The Late Late Lunch Show. Back to the garden childcare,
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where little explorers grow naturally.
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You mentioned literally finishing from the place and then going into that other road.
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Now, I guess one of the things about the place is you've got a 30-year pension
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pot that you're building to, and then unlike a lot of, well,
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like some sectors, but once you hit that 30 years, really, it's more profitable
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sometimes to get out than to stay in.
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You would have been about 48, You had 49 then, would you?
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I was 40, yeah, just before 49th birthday, yeah.
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And having stayed, been in that job, but done so many different things,
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that moment you left and were going into Civvy Street and you were working,
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in The Hague, was there any element of imposter syndrome, any element of Christ
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actually, you know, do I know how to do this?
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It's different for me because I find moving to The Hague and moving into the
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United Nations investigative role quite different, really.
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Policing is quite intense and you're under a lot of pressure.
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There's a lot of media pressure, especially if you're doing murder investigation and stuff.
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The United Nations investigations and tribunals move in a much more leisurely place.
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There's not the amount of pressure on you to do that, so you have a much smaller team around you.
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And what I found is that I had some pretty good and experienced investigators
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who got policing backgrounds, but other investigators who were recruited directly
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into the United Nations who didn't come from that background.
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So their level and experience was a lot lower, to be honest.
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So I never felt imposter syndrome because I always felt I knew what I was doing.
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And in fact, what it caused me was to get a bit more frustrated because things
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didn't happen at the pace I wanted to happen.
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Because, again, the tribunal is also something that is through agreement through
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the countries that you're operating in. So, for instance, we were in Lebanon.
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We had to have their permission to sort of operate and work within the country.
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And, of course, politically, things had changed out there. So,
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like Hamas were part of the Lebanese government at that point,
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some Hamas members and stuff like that.
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So it was a joint government. So, again, they didn't particularly want us poking
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around. So things through negotiation were very difficult to do.
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So it was more frustration rather than anything else.
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Of course, then that was quite short-lived because I got cancer when I was there,
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you know, got diagnosed with cancer very quickly after retired and that sort
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of took up a bit of, took my thought process in a different direction about
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what's important in life, you know.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'll go into that, but just before that, did you, because you.
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Because you left the police then and you were on another career path,
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did you feel any different about the way that you needed to conform or not conform?
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Did you feel a freedom to think differently, to act differently,
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or had you always had that when you were in the police?
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No, I think even now I'm still constrained by the way policing has brought me up.
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I'm still contained in my thoughts and my actions because, you know,
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policing these days has become so politically correct.
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Everything has to be, and you've seen all the recent videos of police officers
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online who may be involved. Everything's caught on phones these days,
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any action that police officers take.
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And certainly as you move through the ranks, you were very much held on account
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for your actions and for what you said and how you said, you know,
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about social media, whether you comment on social media, whether you,
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say anything even in your private social media you know you're under the threat of,
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discipline all the time within policing things have changed so much whereas when i first joined
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there was a lot more camaraderie there's a lot more sort of sense of humor and
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fun within policing you you
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certainly training school man i've still got friendships and relationships from
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people i joined with in fact i'm going down to a reunion again in london in
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a few weeks for people i joined with 30 what 30 40 nearly 40 years ago.
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We still get that sense of human camaraderie when you speak young officers now
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or see young officers now, they haven't got that.
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And it's, it's just not the same. So I still find even now, even like my own
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social media or, or commenting on things that I see pop up, I,
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I just choose not to because it's, it's ingrained in me.
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Now it's sort of, it's there. That that's actually something I realized when,
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you know, I was 46 when, when my brain tumor happened and it took me a good
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six months or more to find, start to find my feet after the operation.
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The thing I actually found most frustrating when I started volunteering was
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that actually I had been used to a certain level of professionalism,
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a certain level of even support from a professional organization.
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And suddenly you go into a voluntary sector, a charity sector, and it's not there.
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And you realize actually how spoiled you were, but you also realize that some
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of the things you say, how you say it, was normal in those environments.
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And and yet actually you come into a different place and it's almost like you're
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speaking dutch you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah it's well i i do and you know i mean.
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I'm and you're still concerned as you know we'll probably talk about a bit but
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i know i sit on the rule board so i can't and
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it's it's a government organization and as an independent member so again you
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have to be really careful you can't just put text messages out there you can't
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just disagree with things in a very open fashion.
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So again, I still feel my personality has been molded by policing and the constraints
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of policing, to be honest.
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I feel exactly the same way and it just stays with you and it's so hard.
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We'll take a break. I want to come back and talk about dealing with cancer.
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As you said, that happened not long into your retirement and we'll talk about
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that because often that can happen with people when they retire.
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It's almost like you come off the cliff and suddenly things fall apart and it's,
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it's weird today we're talking to keith mccurvey we're talking about life and
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retirement i'm actually i'm catching up with somebody i've known for years uh
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we'll be back with him in a couple of minutes time,
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you're listening to the late late lunch show with back to the garden childcare
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where little explorers grow naturally.
18:09
It's Rod Maxwell on the Lately Lunch Show, Radio Aldi, and today I'm catching
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up with an old friend, Keith McCubrey. He was a year above me in school,
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and back in those days, a year above seemed like light years away.
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I remember playing rugby with you as well, and the likes of Jeff Scott. Was it Jeff Scott? No.
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Oh, Jeff, Jeff Banach. There was a year, there was, well, there was an hour
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you played rugby. Jeff did play a bit of rugby, he did. And he's always,
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even if it was only like a year, you always seem to be more mature back then
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than the year below. It's weird, isn't it? I know.
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Rugby was a big, I broke my leg at school, if you remember. I remember, yeah.
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I got caught in a standing tackle and snapped my left leg in half.
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So that was a quick end to sort of my rugby at school days anyway. Yeah.
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That was in the upper sixth.
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Yeah, I actually remember, and I remember also, what was it,
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Leslie's brother from my sister's, Darren, and I remember being in the scrum the day his knee went.
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Yeah. Oh, my God, that was, you know. Anyway, anyway, we digress.
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Like many people, though, when you retire, suddenly things catch up with you,
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and you had a serious illness not long after you started the job working in
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the Hague. Tell us about that, Keith.
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Well, I was working in the Hague and then traveling to and from.
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So my wife was still in the UK because we got the kids at school and stuff.
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So I was flying out night or Sunday night or Monday morning and coming back
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on a Friday night, sitting in the Hague during the week. So I was just home
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one weekend and I was due to flight back.
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I had no signs of illness, nothing at all.
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And then I was just about to go to the airport, needed to go to the toilet and,
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all hell broke loose. Just a lot of blood came out of my backside.
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So as you do sort of thought about it, didn't want to say too much.
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Wasn't going to say anything at all. In fact.
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And then I was just about to get in the car to go to the airport.
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I thought, better go and get this checked out. So best thing I did,
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I went and got it checked out.
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Got diagnosed by old cancer. You know, it was clear as day. That's what it was.
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And on hindsight, I looked back at my head. I had no symptoms,
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probably none at all. I didn't, I wasn't feeling ill. I wasn't feeling that.
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And the only symptom I had when I spoke to the doctors was I was in the Hague one day.
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And for the first time ever, I fell asleep in my office and I didn't,
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I didn't, I was asleep for about an hour and a half.
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Nobody came in. Thankfully, nobody found me. But I woke up and I thought,
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that's a bit strange. I just put it down to traveling and working and doing
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the long hours and stuff. It never happened to me in 30 odd years of working,
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falling asleep in my office.
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It was the tiredness. It was obviously something wearing on the back.
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I had no other symptoms whatsoever until I had the bleed.
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And I only ever bled the once, never bled again, never had anything else ever.
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And then it was only when they put the cameras in and went around the corner
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that they found this huge pulsating sort of.
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I saw it clear as day as they went around. I saw it myself, so I knew what was coming.
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And came out and told my wife and said, just prepare yourself.
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They're going to come out and tell you I've got cancer here.
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And, you know, so I knew before they came, I was quite matter of fact about
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it. You know, so, and I'm one of those sort of people, I don't dwell on things
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like that. So when they came and told me, I just wrote, well,
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what can you do about it? Yeah.
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And I said, well, we can do A, B and C. And I said, well, let's do that then.
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So that was it. Straightforward as that. Do you know, it's, um,
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during the summer of 2016, I was struggling a little bit in work and I thought
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it was because I'd been promoted and I was just stressed and whatever.
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And we went in August to California and how I was doing Helen's nutting because
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I couldn't remember where we were.
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And I just said, it's just stress, stress, but I was starting to have headaches
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and I was, I was covering them up. And then the day I came back from London,
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I think it was the 29th or 28th of September.
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I, I, I came into the house and I said, oh, I'm just a bit tired,
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just a bit tired. But these headaches had been like, it was like a six inch
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nail through my, through my skull.
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And I went to bed that night, woke up next morning in here and I sat down at
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my desk and I couldn't see the screen properly.
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And I went down and I said, you know what? I think I need to go to the doctor.
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And I'd never been to the GP. And later on that morning, went down and sat beside
22:14
the GP and Helen came with me because she didn't trust me to say the right thing.
22:18
And I sat down and the GP said oh what's wrong with you I said I think I'm just
22:22
a bit stressed and Helen went mental she went he's not stressed he's all over
22:27
the place he can't remember but you do you sort of.
22:30
Men are terrible certainly men at a certain age group are terrible at facing
22:35
up to some of these things aren't we?
22:37
Well I've never had to face up to anything sort of serious before I've only
22:40
I've never really had any sickness I've had a couple of minor surgeries along
22:44
the way but never really had any any major illness at all It was a bit of a
22:47
shock and like, you know, I'm not somebody,
22:51
who wants to be, I don't like being ill. I don't like being around people.
22:54
You know, like I said, I found that out when I ended up having the surgery and
22:59
then I had to have the chemotherapy afterwards.
23:02
Like I used to go to the hospital for the chemotherapy and I'd walk in and I'd
23:06
see, I mean, God love them. There's some women there with breast cancer who
23:09
look really ill, you know, and I never felt that sick.
23:12
And I used to go in and just have the treatment. I didn't want to speak to anyone.
23:16
I didn't want to talk to anyone. I'd walk in because I didn't,
23:18
I didn't want to be around sick people walking and have the treatment come out.
23:22
And even when the treatment finished, I think I said, you never wronged the
23:24
bell because there was no achieving in it for me. I just wanted to get out.
23:27
I didn't want to be there, you know?
23:28
But again, these, these, you know, talking about the time, these are one of
23:30
the things that change your direction in life. Cause that's when I took up sailing
23:33
seriously, you know, and got into the sailing side of stuff because.
23:37
When I was going through the chemotherapy, I was sitting watching daytime TV
23:42
and I thought, what am I doing?
23:44
This is awful. So again, my wife is very good. So I signed up to go and do an
23:49
intensive sailing course because I'd always been into sailing from a young age,
23:51
as you know, back in Ireland. And I hadn't done it for a long period of time.
23:55
So I went off down to Falmouth and joined a sailing school down there.
23:59
And I spent, I know, six months on a boat coming back home at weekends,
24:03
but just learning to become a professional sailor. So I went from a,
24:06
a novice sailor right up to a qualified yacht master off shore.
24:10
And I spent the time in the boat and they were great with me because they let
24:12
me study when I wanted to study.
24:14
They let me sail when I wanted to sail on the days I was feeling a bit ill.
24:16
They just let me lie in the cabin and not, not annoy me. So,
24:19
and it, but again, it got me out of the house. It took my mind off being sick
24:23
and it gave me something to focus on and.
24:25
You know, turned out and it's, it's a great, I love it. I'm still sailing to this day.
24:28
Now, had you ever, when you were well, had you ever thought about a plan for
24:34
your retirement? I mean, had you turned around and said, well,
24:37
actually, I want to get into sailing or I want to try to do something I haven't done for a long time?
24:42
It's funny because when I was in Kenya, before I finished, I was talking to
24:45
the guys I used to work with.
24:46
And I said, oh, when I finish, I want to sort of try and get a yacht and get
24:50
back into sailing again.
24:51
And by that stage, I started taking the family on some of the,
24:55
what do you call it, the flotilla holidays.
24:56
I was trying to get them into it. So it was a plan to sort of do the sailing,
24:59
but not to that sort of intense level, really. It was more about,
25:02
I was thinking, oh, I'll just do a few flotilla holidays and stuff.
25:04
But of course, when I got into it, because of the situation I was in,
25:08
I just put my focus into it and went for it.
25:11
And like I said qualified as yacht master offshore and then from there I went
25:15
on and did quite a few I've done some yacht deliveries and I did many more sea
25:20
miles so then I went and did my instructor's license so I'm now a yacht master offshore instructor.
25:26
And can teach sailing people to sail big yachts up to yacht master level now so again that's,
25:33
something I've enjoyed doing because it's like an achievement outside it's a
25:37
hobby that I've turned into sort of more profession that I can choose to pick
25:41
and, you know, I can earn a little bit of money.
25:42
There's no money in yacht sailing, to be honest. But you can do it as a hobby
25:46
and, you know, it takes your mind and allows you to go around the world.
25:49
So there's like yacht deliveries you can jump on and travel all over the world
25:52
on and sail some fantastic yachts.
25:54
But then we've gone on to buy like a share on our own yacht now.
25:56
So I've got a yacht out in Greece, which you know about. And we go out there
26:00
and we sail for six to eight weeks a year out there. I have a great time. It's lovely.
26:05
Do you find that, I mean, it's interesting. It's something that you did when
26:08
you were young, down in the, what was probably the Coil Yacht Club or the Crichtons.
26:12
But, you know, I guess in some ways it gives you a lot of the things that policing
26:17
would have given you in terms of there's some camaraderie there,
26:19
getting people together, sailing with them.
26:21
There's the unknown about sailing, because even if you know where you're going,
26:25
every day can be a different day. So you're dealing with that.
26:29
And you've got a responsibility, especially if you're the yacht master, you're the chief.
26:34
You've got a responsibility there. and tests you nearly every day.
26:38
Yeah, I mean, it's decision-making, isn't it? But sort of policing is a very
26:42
good ground for decision-making and making risk-based decisions about what's happening.
26:46
So the weather changes constantly, and that's the thing. You know,
26:49
you can have people on the boat who are quite experienced, or you can have people
26:52
on the boat who are complete novices.
26:54
And if you take complete novices out, then you have to be a little careful on
26:57
the wind and conditions and what sort of worry you're putting to them.
26:59
You have to make decisions based on that. So it's all making continual risk
27:02
assessments, which is what I've
27:03
done for 30 years, really, but just in a different environment, you know?
27:07
So, and yeah, and also you find different people, so different people who come
27:11
on board have got different thresholds of what risk they're willing to accept,
27:15
you know? So sometimes you can push a little bit harder in bigger sea conditions,
27:18
a bit bigger wind conditions.
27:20
Other times you have to just ease it back down a bit because,
27:23
you know, what you don't want to do, and certainly it was the same for my family
27:25
when they first started sailing, you know, if we put big sails up,
27:28
we got big wind and the votes tipped over on its side, you just,
27:31
you just scare the kids and they never want to come sailing again.
27:34
You learn quite quickly by reaching the sails and reducing the sail size down
27:37
you can still sail perfectly comfortably in big wind conditions and their confidence
27:42
grows and they come back so like i thought it was last year we were out in greece,
27:47
and i was coming back from quarter free back down towards left cast with my
27:52
wife on board and my wife i would describe as a fair weather sailor a warm sailor
27:55
she's not she's not qualified in any way shape or form but she knows what to
27:58
do and I a little bit because of showing her what to do.
28:00
But we were coming back and we were in, I reckon, 40 to 50 knot winds with about four metre waves.
28:06
But we were coming downwind. So these waves were taller than the boat.
28:10
You'd be down in the base often and you couldn't see it where above them.
28:13
Then you're up at the top and you can see for miles.
28:15
And we were out in that. Now, you couldn't turn the boat around in that point,
28:17
so we got caught in this big, big storm.
28:20
And we did it. The boat, you know, because I knew what I was doing.
28:22
She was confident in what I was able to do, but her confidence had grown because I'd never...
28:27
Pushed her to scare her really so that you know so she knew at that point you
28:31
know we were and we sailed for about two hours not until we could get into,
28:35
pack sauce we were able to run for cover in pack sauce but yeah i think two
28:38
hours out and open seas is like
28:39
50 knot winds and about four meter waves which is bigger than the boat
28:43
i'll tell you what you get to know each other's a couple more than you probably
28:46
ever did before i tell you i'll take a break and i want to come back to your your,
28:50
the period of of overcoming your diagnosis and how long that was and we're talking
28:56
retirement We're talking about life after work and with Keith McCouvery.
29:01
I know we're from my hometown, Dan Patrick. We'll be back with him in a couple of minutes time.
29:06
You're listening to The Late Late Lunch Show with Back to the Garden Childcare,
29:11
where little explorers grow naturally.
29:14
So from the time you had your diagnosis, and that must have been a huge shock,
29:20
how long was the total treatment to the point where if you had to run the bell,
29:24
you would have rung the bell?
29:25
How long did that take, Keith? Well, it was a few months. I had to wait a couple
29:30
of months till I had the surgery just because of the waiting list to get in to have it done.
29:35
Yeah, it probably was about two months until I had the surgery after I got the actual thing.
29:39
And then after that, I had five months of chemo.
29:45
So I would say probably it took me about 12 months to start feeling a bit normal
29:54
again after the initial diagnosis.
29:57
But what I found is it was actually a couple of years, the energy levels have
30:01
dropped and the chemo does a lot to your body so it took me a couple of years to start feeling.
30:07
Just energetic again and stuff and again I'm somebody who likes to sort of set,
30:13
goals for myself and one of the goals I wanted to go and walk the Inca trail
30:16
so that was one of the ones that I wanted to push for and we did go and do that
30:20
and I think we did that about three,
30:23
years after I think I had the surgery so it's about getting your fitness levels
30:27
up again and getting your stamina going and trying to build up so it takes more
30:31
toll out of you than you realise only when you look back, do you realize how
30:34
much it sort of knocked your energy levels a bit?
30:37
But you build back up and, you know, I never, like I said, I never,
30:40
I never accepted I was ill.
30:41
I never accepted. I felt tired. I never accepted it.
30:44
But I would find myself sleeping a lot more in the afternoon,
30:47
you know, after the chemo and stuff. I find it made, you know,
30:49
if I sat down in front of the TV and fall asleep, whereas, you know,
30:52
I never did that in the past, like I say, whereas sort of your energy level
30:55
sort of built back up slowly again. So that was okay.
30:58
But yeah. So yeah, I'd say probably a couple of years, to be honest, Rodney.
31:01
And during that time, did you, did you find that actually then other little things popped up?
31:06
Because I suddenly, I felt like I was under the microscope because I had a major
31:12
operation and then all these little things popped up. And suddenly I was thinking,
31:16
Chris, I'm just an unhealthy man here.
31:20
Well, funny you should say that because it wasn't. I just was coming to the
31:25
end of the five years of remission, where they say you're now at remission and
31:29
that's you, you're clear of cancer, sort of that.
31:31
And then I had heart failure and my valve and my heart failed.
31:34
So I ended up having to have open heart surgery to have a valve repair in my
31:38
heart, which was harder than the cancer surgery.
31:40
Be honest, the heart surgery was it knocked me for six. It really didn't take
31:44
it out of me, I must admit. And so that, that, that happened.
31:48
When did I have that? That was about come up for two years ago now.
31:52
So I just got, I got five years clear of the cancer. Then the heart,
31:55
the heart issue happened.
31:56
And then I'm two years over that man. I feel, I feel amazing.
31:59
I must admit, I hope that's me.
32:01
My wife says that's it you've had your lot now if it happens again i'm trading
32:05
you in because i don't want any more old models going wrong you know.
32:10
So the heart the heart surgery was tougher than the cancer surgery almost a
32:13
matter of fact that really did knock me about and i'm still recovering from
32:17
that a little bit then and in terms of getting my muscles and,
32:21
everything working again properly but uh but i feel in myself i feel a lot healthier
32:25
i feel energetic again i feel much more back to the way i used to be quite some time ago so,
32:30
i i found with the brain injury i described it there was a couple of ways i
32:34
described things like for example initially i felt like,
32:38
it was like an earthquake and you know the the skill of the nhs surgeons saved me,
32:45
but then i had to deal with the aftershocks you know when you're on your own
32:49
and you know for me aftershocks were a number of things that the tumor indirectly
32:53
damaged and and therefore fatigue was a huge one for example
32:58
and depression i've i've i've had that a number of other things and actually they almost
33:04
bugged me more because they kept they kept on.
33:07
Coming up without really any warning and i thought i'm over the i'm over the
33:11
tsunami here you know i should be okay and and then i was thinking i'm just now in this,
33:17
this biocosm of, of health, you know, and everybody wants to find something with me.
33:21
I'm almost like a lab rat, you know, and I got sick and tired of just healthy,
33:27
going for health appointments. If you know what I mean? I just want rid of it.
33:31
I'm fed up of needles, I must admit, and prod and poke with needles and tablets
33:35
and stuff like that, but I don't want to put your lessons off.
33:38
I think we've just been unlucky, Rodney. I think we've been unlucky.
33:44
Some people say there's nothing to do about getting old, but I think as you
33:46
get older, then challenges will come across you.
33:49
But again, talking about work, again, I turn to work to sort of,
33:54
because again, even now, I don't accept that I've been that ill.
34:00
I don't accept in my head that I'm ill. To me, it's just like tuning a car up,
34:06
tune me up and I'm on to the next thing.
34:08
So again, as I said, I'm working for the parole board now and I'm busier than
34:11
ever doing stuff on the parole board. And it's great because the parole board
34:15
allows you, as an independent member, you can work from home.
34:18
You can do as much work as you want or as little work as you want,
34:20
depending upon what you're doing.
34:22
And I'd like to start training in September now, just in the next month or so,
34:25
I actually start training to be a chair so I can share the actual hearings myself
34:29
and sit and do that. So again, that's another...
34:32
Thing to take your mind and concentrate on and professional it's still a profession
34:37
and you're learning how to professionalize yourself in those sort of environments
34:39
so i i always seem to revert to to work to take my mind off the other stuff.
34:45
I tell you because i drive my wife mad at this right and she's retiring at the
34:49
beginning of september and you know it's i i've had,
34:53
three five days of just doing what i want to do and i i'm busy you know but
35:00
i don't see it as work because i,
35:02
i i i don't have the same authorities over me you know i don't have to report
35:07
really to anybody and i'm meeting people and that's the one thing i i missed
35:12
madly when i stopped my job because the one thing i noticed was,
35:17
and i've often described it this way and i've said it on air many times is that
35:21
i felt when i came out of hospital that i was almost like up in the up in the lake district,
35:28
and i was on a b road or a c road on a hillside and i could see the m6 going
35:35
up by a sharp and i i could see,
35:39
i imagine the people in those cars would be people that i work with,
35:42
and they couldn't see me and and and they didn't see me and a lot of people
35:47
didn't contact you much afterwards there was always a few that did but a lot
35:51
of them didn't and these were people that you saw every day and worked every
35:54
day for months and months and months often stayed in hotels together,
35:58
but i i i came to the conclusion that actually.
36:03
They are just busy in their lives and they're focused on the next junction or the destination,
36:09
and it's not anything to do with me it's just that their lives are busy,
36:13
and i was looking out and thinking i can see this you can't see me,
36:17
and i know who's who's the luckier one you know what i mean it was a weird experience
36:22
suddenly from being in a big firm surrounded by people even feeling like you
36:26
were marginally important or you know suddenly it was like
36:30
i'm on my own here and nobody thinks i'm,
36:37
I mean, policing and sort of all the things have been involved in,
36:42
you know, you speak to anyone in my career, everyone's got stories and everyone
36:46
thinks you're always important at the time, especially when you're heading up
36:49
to partners, you always think you're the boss and you're important and you know that.
36:52
I never thought for one moment the minute I walked out the door that somebody
36:55
wouldn't replace me you pick your carriage clock up you walk out the door certainly
36:59
in place and you know somebody's promoted into your role or takes over your role,
37:03
and if you ever think you're bigger than the job it's a bit like the same football
37:05
if you ever think you're bigger than the team then you're not the right person
37:08
for the job so I knew in the walk that somebody else replaced me and that wasn't
37:12
and it's funny because like you were saying Neil,
37:14
You know, everyone's got their stories and, you know, the kids hear my stories
37:17
all the time. They're bored, doesn't that? You know, you tell them,
37:19
you know, you can't wait to tell somebody who hasn't heard your story about
37:22
your stories. But of course, they're irrelevant now. It makes no difference.
37:26
They're in the past. You know, it's just part of your, they're in your past.
37:29
And like, in terms of like keeping in touch with people, like I said to you
37:32
earlier, I'm more in touch with people who were joined by 30 odd years ago,
37:36
who went through stuff when I was younger in policing, as opposed to when I
37:40
became senior in policing.
37:41
I found when you got to senior police and really you had no friends because
37:44
you were always under pressure and everyone was just, everyone was just waiting
37:47
for you to make a mistake.
37:48
Whereas when you were young and in the teams and your camaraderie was there,
37:52
those relationships exist to this day.
37:54
I'm very rarely in touch, hardly ever with anyone from when I was a senior police officer.
38:01
That is so right. And, you know, the people I now meet up with,
38:05
you know, it's the fact that I meet up with Gareth, I meet up with Richard,
38:07
I meet up with Stephen, you know, we all went through from primary school through.
38:12
And, you know, it's almost like we've lost 30 years or so, but we haven't because
38:17
actually, you know, we're catching up and we are just where we are, you know.
38:21
And I think there's an element to which, because in those periods,
38:25
you went through your most embarrassing, your most difficult,
38:27
your most turbulent years, but you did it together and it wasn't that competitive
38:32
really, you know, that you share something, you know.
38:35
You share camaraderie, you share a bit of fun and then it's,
38:38
it's the stories you make when you're younger, those are the ones that stick
38:40
with you, I think. So, you know, I, in retirement now, the benefit for me now
38:46
is like, I can work as much as I want or as little as I want.
38:49
I get to go and travel around. I keep in touch with quite a few people and we
38:53
go and do the meetups and we do it quite, we try to meet up certainly with people
38:56
I joined with in London. We meet up twice a year.
38:58
There's other people I worked with when I was on the National Crown Squad.
39:01
We were off to Blackpool, funny enough, for a weekend and a couple of weeks.
39:06
So we meet up regularly with that and we do it in different parts of the country.
39:09
So we spread it out and we go to different places and then we get to see different
39:11
things, places we haven't been before.
39:14
And then, of course, I spend a lot more time with the family.
39:17
Our holidays now are great.
39:18
We get to go away a lot and I think it's funny one of the things like in policing
39:22
like retiring from policing is I've managed to survive the divorce,
39:26
mostly a lot of people who leave policing especially because they're away from
39:29
home a lot they tend to retire and then a lot of them get divorced quite quickly
39:33
afterwards so lucky for me my wife has stuck with me and she's still hanging
39:37
around so we've done something right so,
39:39
there you go I feel the same way after 26 odd years look we'll take a break
39:42
I'm going to wrap up with Keith McCurby it's been fantastic to catch up and
39:46
talk about life after retirement i'm gonna i'm gonna ask you actually for your your top three,
39:52
recommendations what should people think about as they prepare for retirement
39:56
or or do in their retirement we'll take a break we'll be back wrapping up a
40:00
case in a couple of minutes time.
40:03
You're listening to The Late Late Lunch Show. Back to the garden childcare,
40:07
where little explorers grow naturally.
40:10
So today on The Late Late Lunch Show, we've been talking about retirement,
40:13
we've been talking about life after work, we've been talking about life down
40:18
Patrick, Northern Ireland, the 1980s with Keith McCouvery, who I grew up with.
40:23
Do you know, Keith, it's funny, remember going on those camps with the choir
40:27
and how naive you were. I mean, wherever we were in our Cossacks and our robes
40:32
and all that type of thing, you know, it's mad when you think back to those times.
40:37
Well, you make me out as a singer.
40:39
I never was a singer. How I ever got in the choir, I didn't know.
40:43
I only joined the cathedral choir because of the family used to go to church
40:47
there, but they had a bit of a football team. We did.
40:50
I could never sing a note. At least you could sing. I could never sing a note.
40:52
So I think I mind most of the words most of the time.
40:56
I wouldn't want your listeners into thinking I still can't sing a note to this
40:59
can you not no I'm totally you're Gary who sing though can't they,
41:05
I don't know. You made up the numbers anyway and you look good,
41:09
you know? Yeah, well, I think that was more about it, you know, but God.
41:14
I used to dread if they ever asked somebody to sing the solo for Once in a Royal David City. Oh!
41:18
Do you know, that still brings me out in a cold rash, actually,
41:21
because I had to do that in about 1980, oh, 1980, something like that.
41:26
I know, but there was a big difference between singing together and then suddenly
41:31
being given a note at the back of the cathedral and then having to build out
41:34
what's in royal david city i still have regret about that if i could go back
41:38
to my 10 year old self and redo that again i would love to because my memory of that is shocking i i,
41:46
and my memory of it is good i remember it but,
41:49
i i i i knew i didn't do it well enough you know it's one of those things i
41:55
only ever mind let me tell you.
41:58
So so you know you you've been you've been,
42:02
you've done retirement differently to what people traditionally do but i think
42:07
it's very much a modern way about it now it's going out it's finding things
42:10
it's being interested it's meeting with people as well but you have to put in
42:15
a bit of effort don't you especially in this world of
42:17
people living distributed across the world or uk you have to,
42:21
organize things and put the effort in what would you say are your top three
42:26
tips for somebody who's thinking about retirement,
42:29
I was starting to be thinking about, I think what I struggled with for a couple of years was.
42:34
Even when I left, it's about remaining.
42:38
What's the word, not important, but remaining, I can't think of the word, remaining. Relative.
42:44
Relative, yeah, yeah. When I was coming up for retirement, I was looking for
42:48
other jobs that were equally sort of senior and high-powered type of things,
42:54
hence the United Nations job like that.
42:57
When I look back on it now, I think you need to prepare, and I could have prepared
43:01
better where I was thinking, instead of thinking I need to go and find another
43:04
job, you can take a bit of time to come out and enjoy it.
43:08
And slow down a bit and actually decide what you want to do and what's important.
43:12
So the first tip would be don't, don't try and rush into something that you don't need to rush into.
43:16
And certainly don't try to pitch yourself or think about what you want to do
43:19
at the same level. Because you can have a completely different career,
43:22
a completely different direction, which may be of interest.
43:25
And that's what I found with the sailing. That took me in a completely different
43:27
direction and took me away from wanting to be in a high-powered role.
43:31
It took me away and gave me a different head of space.
43:34
I think the thing is, you do have to find something, though, to keep you interested.
43:38
You've got to find something that you want to do that you're interested in doing.
43:43
And I've been lucky with the parole board that I am interested in that.
43:46
But also, I think the final tip is you need some hobbies. You need to have friends and hobbies.
43:51
And we haven't talked about it, but I took off beekeeping this year.
43:54
So I've had my first beehive this year, and I've taken the first little bit of honey off this year.
43:58
And that, to me, has given me a huge amount of pleasure to see and manage a
44:01
set of bees and what they do and actually how important they are to the environment
44:04
and all that sort of stuff. But that's sort of given me something else to learn
44:07
about, but it's in a hobby. So that's completely in a hobby space where I can do it myself, by myself.
44:12
And that's been great as well. And I've met a load of new people through doing
44:16
that who've got all different interests.
44:17
So by having hobbies, you meet new people, you get to do different things,
44:23
and you can have a job or a part-time job, whatever it was, that still allows
44:26
you to keep your mind engaged and keep you relevant in that point of way.
44:32
So I suppose my three tips are, you know, don't seek to rush into something.
44:36
Don't think you have to pitch yourself at the same level and have some hobbies
44:39
and friends that remain important to you.
44:41
I think they're excellent. Absolutely excellent. And actually,
44:46
I think you and beekeeping, I have to say, it's extraordinary how people can
44:50
go off into tangential hobbies in some ways, isn't it?
44:55
Well, you know, the girl, the girl sitting with my daughter,
44:57
so I've turned into a beekeeper, right? Cause I'm boring. I grow on the bees.
45:00
Well, do you know what? I just, I find now as I've got older,
45:05
I realized now that what I do is the least important of anything that's ever
45:09
discussed around the Sunday table.
45:11
And I just have to sit back and enjoy the fact that they're all doing things
45:16
and, and actually not take, not take the, the huff when nobody actually asked me, what are you up to?
45:23
It's their turn. You move on, it's their turn. It's our time to enjoy our lives.
45:27
And I think that's the good thing about retirement these days is I think people
45:30
are much younger and have got a much younger outlook on retirement and life ahead.
45:35
So it used to be, what did they used to say, 50s or the new 40s or whatever
45:40
else. I think 70s, we've got a good span of life to actually go and enjoy ourselves.
45:46
And generally, people are a bit more affluent these days.
45:49
Not everyone would agree with that. But generally, if you've had a 30-year career,
45:53
you can afford to go and do some nice things.
45:55
And that's the space where I am at the minute. So I'm enjoying life to the max,
45:59
keeping busy, but looking forward to what's to come rather than looking back
46:03
at what's been, you know?
46:04
And I do think, like you're doing with the parole, is finding somewhere where
46:07
your experience and skills can be drawn on to give a little bit back,
46:12
but also give you some interest, really, you know, without being stressed by it.
46:17
Oh, that's great. And like I said, it's sort of all you can do as much or as
46:21
little as you want. and you're still making risk-based decisions.
46:24
You know, from my old days where I used to, you know, try and lock the people
46:27
up and put them in there, I'm now making risk-based decisions on whether people
46:30
are going to get released or not.
46:32
And that's equally important, you know, because people have been,
46:34
some people are rehabilitated and you've got to make that assessment.
46:37
But, you know, our role on the parole board is to make sure there's no more
46:40
than a minimal risk of serious harm to the public should be released somebody.
46:43
And it's quite an important job when you think about it like that.
46:45
Well, especially with the announcement and the lack of prison places today.
46:49
So Mr. Burnham's got quite a lot of, he'll be pulling on a lot of parole boards
46:53
over the next few months.
46:56
I'll be interested to see what happens. I mean, you government,
46:58
you change your ministers and all that sort of stuff always affect sort of government departments.
47:02
But as an independent member, that's the good thing. I'm not,
47:04
we're not employed by the government. We're an independent member to make independent
47:08
risk-based decisions. And that's why they bring us in, you know? So that's quite good.
47:12
Well, it's been great to see you. I've really enjoyed catching up.
47:14
We'll have to do it in person, maybe down in Stoke or something like that.
47:17
Meet up with Richard and the guys.
47:20
Love to the family. And thanks very much indeed. Likewise. All the best. Thank you, Rodney.