Latest / Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast / Why Brilliant Bookkeepers Undervalue Themselves

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Why Brilliant Bookkeepers Undervalue Themselves · Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast

• There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript. Questian Telka: Welcome to a very special crossover edition of She Counts the Real Talk podcast for Women in Accounting. Alicia Katz Pollock: And the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast, where your hosts Alicia Katz Pollack, Nancy McClelland: Nancy McClelland. Questian Telka: And Questian Telka. Nancy McClelland: And every episode, we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths [00:00:30] of life in this profession. Questian Telka: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not, and you shouldn't have to figure it out alone. Alicia Katz Pollock: Remember, you can go to earmark.app to earn CPE credit for both of these shows. Questian Telka: Since not all of our listeners know who you are and not all of yours know us. Let's just take a minute to introduce ourselves. Nancy, would you like to go first? Nancy McClelland: Well, sure. Thank you. Question. Hi, my name is Nancy McClelland. [00:01:00] I am a CPA and I'm better known as the Dancing Accountant. I have run a hyper local accounting firm in my little neighborhood of Logan Square in Chicago for 25 years this year. I cannot believe it. And I also have a column in MSN. I run the community, ask a CPA for bookkeepers who want to learn how to collaborate better with tax pros and learn how to prepare tax ready books. [00:01:30] And of course, I am the co-host along with question of the She Counts podcast, Real Talk for Women in Accounting. Alicia. Alicia Katz Pollock: So I am the founder and trainer at Royal wise.com and we are a QuickBooks training library, bookkeeping training library, and also Apple technology as well. So at Royal Wise, we have classes and a community and we do really good deep dives into into QuickBooks training, and it's for [00:02:00] bookkeepers. It's also for your clients as well. Um, I'm the host of the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast, obviously. Here we are. Um, and I'm also a published author. I also publish textbooks for QuickBooks with Kristeva Consultants. And I have, if you go on to Amazon, I have a vast library of self-published training materials as well. Nancy McClelland: Which I can personally vouch for. Alicia Katz Pollock: Thank you, thank you. And a question. Tell us about you. Questian Telka: My name is question. I [00:02:30] am the founder of Reconcile Financials. We are a fractional CFO firm focused on nonprofit accounting. I also love to speak and teach other accountants and spend time at conferences, um, doing, doing that and as do Alicia and Nancy. Um. Nancy McClelland: We are definitely conference buddies. Questian Telka: Yeah, that's for sure. And I am a co-host with Nancy, as she mentioned, of this She Counts podcast [00:03:00] and we're all really excited to get to do, um, a crossover episode together as female podcasters. So this is really exciting. Nancy McClelland: It really is. Nancy McClelland: Today's episode is called Why Brilliant Bookkeepers underValue Themselves. And I would say, given that we have three brilliant bookkeepers right here, all of whom have undervalued ourselves at one time or another, this is totally the right place for it. Questian Telka: It really is. And [00:03:30] as our listeners know and Alicia's don't, but they're about to find out. We love launching each episode with a story. And Alicia, I know you have one to share with us. Can you tell all of our listeners what the inspiration was for this topic today and the title of this episode? It's still pretty fresh, isn't it? Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. I'm just in the beginnings of this new phase and this new opportunity. And before I even tell the story, I just want to say that I really appreciate [00:04:00] your perspective because when I was telling the story, I thought I was telling a different story. And then what you took away from it was the topic of this episode about undervaluing yourselves. And I thought to myself, like, oh my God, I'm undervaluing myself. But it wasn't part of my narrative and I wasn't thinking about it that way at all. And which is actually the second time that you've brought things to my attention that I was listening to your episode about burnout last year, and I was like, oh my God, I'm, I was, [00:04:30] I'm burnt out. And this is like a year ago now. Um. Nancy McClelland: And, you know, you and I have had some really good conversations, uh, partially because of the podcast and partially because of my presentations, um, at bridging the gap on vulnerability and how that can be a strength. And you've reached out to me about that too. So I am expecting a therapist fee, uh, any day now. Come on. Alicia. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. I mean, it is really true, because listening to to you guys and being friends [00:05:00] with you at conferences has absolutely opened up for me a different way, a different perspective that, you know, I think of myself as the invulnerable superhero and you're like, Alicia, it's okay to struggle sometimes, and it's okay to talk about the fact that you're struggling. So that's what. Yeah. So that's kind of what I mean. Nancy McClelland: I guess that's kind of what this whole podcast is about, right? For your listeners who aren't familiar with us, like question was saying earlier, you do not have to do it alone. You are not the only one struggling. When you look out there on social media [00:05:30] or when you look out there and you're like, oh my God, all of those other people, they're doing better than I am. They have their act together more than I do. I am the only one who is struggling with this, that, and the other. You can look at the QuickBooks Live Queen herself right here struggling with undervaluing herself. Right. And to me that says, oh gosh, wait a minute. I'm not alone. And I don't have to figure this out alone. I have resources, I can make friends, I can reach out, I can be honest about my experiences because that's going [00:06:00] to help everyone that's actually going to like, develop a sort of community wide sense of resilience in our industry. Questian Telka: Yeah. I have to say that when I saw you at we saw each other at scaling new Heights last year and back to what you were saying about like hearing the episodes and then having something resonate. And I remember the moment that you, you were like, oh, I heard, you know, this episode about burnout and you're like, I just and, and it was, um, Lynette O'Connell that we had on as a guest, um, [00:06:30] who is an expert on burnout. And I was like, I can't believe that we did something that resonated with Alicia. And I was just like. Nancy McClelland: Right. Because I mean I know Alicia from the big stage. I, I learned QuickBooks Live from Alicia and Hector that, like they were my teachers for my entire. And I was I mean, you want to know how I discovered the mobile app for QuickBooks? It was [00:07:00] you. It was a it was an in-person conference. Um, probably a slider con, I don't know. It was a while ago, you know, it was back in the day. But I mean, like you, you were and I remember when I joined the theater of Public speaking program, I, I was having a meeting with Misty as I first decided to sign up and I, she asked who the people were in the profession, who I considered inspirations and who I wanted to, you know, emulate. And you were one of the first people I mentioned. And she made [00:07:30] this. She already knew you had signed up for the same cohort, but I did not know you were going to be in my cohort. And we were going to be studying together as peers. And she made a little like smile and clap. And I'm like, why is she smiling and clapping? Because I mentioned Alicia. And then I found out she decided to keep it a surprise, and I found out we were going. Questian Telka: Oh my gosh. Nancy McClelland: That's studying together in the same cohort. So. Isn't that amazing how like each of us look up to each other in these different ways? And, um, and yet we all struggle. We all undervalue. So yeah. Go back to your story. [00:08:00] Yes. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. All right. So now now we're going to start the episode. Nancy McClelland: We knew this was gonna happen. Yes. Alicia Katz Pollock: So okay. So here's what happened. So at Royal Wise, I teach classes, but I also have a membership community where all the members get automatic free enrollment into all of the classes. So everybody just shows up. And I also have a coaching program where for that's the top tier where you get an hour [00:08:30] with me every single month. And so it's like, you know, third Thursday of the month at 10 a.m.. And so, you know that we're going to meet and we talk about whether it's accounting therapy for your spirit, or we actually dive in and do hands on work in your own books or clients books. Anyway, so I have bookkeeping clients, mostly because what I do, what Alicia does, is set ups, training and troubleshooting, and people come to me when their reports are just gibberish and I whack everything [00:09:00] into place and I set up their books. So it actually works for their company. And the reports are right. And then I teach them how to do it. And with my, a lot of my clients are micro businesses like small mom and pop shops, solopreneurs, therapists, couple retail stores, and e-commerce, but mostly like individuals and micro businesses who the kind that are like, oh, I don't need a bookkeeper or, oh, I can't afford a bookkeeper. And some of them, all they really need is just monthly reconciling. But that's [00:09:30] not how they should be spending their time. So I occasionally take on my clients as and I say, well, hey, instead of meeting with me once a year, twice a year or quarterly, what if I just do your bookkeeping reviews for you? And so I had, you know, probably at that point, maybe 30 clients that I was looking to do regularly. And one of my coaching people, I'll call her Brenda. Hi, Brenda. Nancy McClelland: Because that's her name. Alicia Katz Pollock: Brenda [00:10:00] in our sessions always had really good questions. Like I could tell that she was thinking about the material, and even if she didn't know what to do, she knew there was something that needed to be done. Nancy McClelland: And I love that kind of brain. It is such a beautiful thing. When you meet somebody like that where you, you know, they're like, this can't be right. I know there has to be more. I just don't know what the thing [00:10:30] is. Help me find the thing. Yeah, exactly. Alicia Katz Pollock: So so that curiosity has actually become one of the two things that I look for in a new hire. But that's a separate tangent. So we'll go in and we'll go into that. Um, but the so so I was like, well, what if I brought on a bookkeeper and I actually became a mini bookkeeping firm and I would do I, Brenda would do the work and I would review Brenda. And so I was like, okay, let's try this. And so she came on and she started doing the bookkeeping [00:11:00] for me and about, you know, two years of, of, of doing this. And she was getting really, she was doing a great job in our model that we had developed together organically, really worked well. And then she, she started taking on her own clients and, you know, $500 client here or I had a couple clients that were personal that were personal books, not bookkeeping, that I didn't really feel like they fit my model. And she's like, well, can [00:11:30] I buy them from you? So she started buying some of my book of business clients, and then she started taking on her own clients and taking on $400 a month clients and $1,000 a month clients. And then one of the churches that she was working for took her on for $4,000 a month, not just as bookkeeping, but as administration. And all of a sudden she found herself making $10,000 a month and she's like, hey, Alicia, um, I need to give you notice. I [00:12:00] can't do your tiny little clients anymore. Nancy McClelland: Oh my God. Yeah. You know, I, I feel we just did an episode recently on radical acceptance and, and I'm having that right now. We're like two completely opposing feelings at the same time, which is like, on the one hand, a huge freaking success story, right? Like, so talk about being able to teach her all of this stuff and amazing. And on the other hand, you're like, oh my God, I don't want to lose her everything she knows. And now she's [00:12:30] leaving this source, right? So yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: So, so a huge success story. But then it left me with like, well, what am I going to do now? Um, that am I going to do take these back and do them myself? Am I going to sell off my book of business? Do I, you know, and drop the bookkeeping part altogether or. And then I went right. Nancy McClelland: And here Brenda is, she's making $10,000 a month. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right. Nancy McClelland: Right. And you're like, uh, yeah. Um, [00:13:00] and. Alicia Katz Pollock: So, and so what am I, what am I, what am I going to do here? And so, you know, and like, clearly I underprice these clients, but also, like I said, like, they, it's either pay a pittance or they aren't going to do bookkeeping at all. Questian Telka: So we've all had to deal with scenarios like this. It's very emotional running businesses. I know Nancy's had to deal with it. I've had to manage it myself. Whether you're at a big [00:13:30] firm or a small firm, and when we're hiring, we want to pay special attention to who we're hiring and we want the kind of people that are driven to learn and to grow. Nancy McClelland: But totally. Yeah. Questian Telka: And we're supportive of that. Right? And that's so important. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. You know, Hector actually was the one when, when I, when I lost my first when I lost my first employee, I was frustrated because I had taught them everything they knew, like literally everything they knew about [00:14:00] this. And then they, like, went off and started their own firm. And it was, it was hard for me because she didn't tell me she that that's what she was doing. Um, so like it. Questian Telka: I remember that. Nancy McClelland: You remember that. Yes. Yes. That was when you and I started working together. Yeah. Yeah. I was not really sure what I was going to do. And I was so upset. And I taught her everything she knew. And on the one hand, I was really proud. And I was talking to Hector Garcia about it, and he said, what's that great quote? Like, um. What? [00:14:30] It's hard because, you know, you teach them everything they know and then they leave. And he said, yeah, but what if you don't teach them everything they need to know and they stay? Questian Telka: Yeah. Nancy McClelland: That's worse. Right? To yeah, to go to your point question, like you want to hire people who have curiosity, you want to hire people who may, you know, like you were saying. Questian Telka: Yeah, I, and I think what happens is it, um, when that takes [00:15:00] place, it forces us to take a look at and realize the value of what we've built. Yes. Nancy McClelland: Yeah, definitely. Because otherwise you end up feeling trapped, right? Like you're just always going to hire people. This is a little fresher for me than I realized it would be when we planned the episode, because that's right. Yeah. My, my long time employee, one of my long time employees, uh, she's been with me for over eight years. And, um, she just gave notice two days ago. I [00:15:30] mean, she's going to stay with me for like months, um, transitioning out. We have a good relationship. But, you know, she's a stay at home mom and this is just too stressful for her. And but I'm having those same feelings right now. And, you know, I, I feel left behind. I feel trapped, I feel yeah, it's just like a really. But I love what you're saying about that unexpected mirror. Like it it causes you to realize the value of what you've built over and over and over again, you know, is that what it triggered [00:16:00] in you? How did you react to any of this? Alicia Katz Pollock: So my reaction, so the first reaction was, well, do I stop? What am I going to do? And then I was like, well, if it worked for Brenda, can I repeat the success? Nancy McClelland: And oh. Alicia Katz Pollock: If it works for one person, can I scale it? Well? Questian Telka: And you are learning. This is what's amazing too. It's like, you know, symbiotic, right? Like you taught her so much. And then in return, like you've learned something [00:16:30] from her process and you're going, can I take something away from that. And and also. Nancy McClelland: Oh, that's right. Because not only have you brought her up over these past two years and taught her everything that she knows, but like now you have an opportunity to learn from her and from her experience. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right? You know, we and it wasn't just the, the bookkeeping part. It was how do we communicate over Slack? We implemented double, you know, like the technology component as well. And so I didn't want to just stop [00:17:00] because if I'm teaching bookkeeping, I gotta have a bookkeeping firm. And so that was part of what gives me the authenticity to, to do this in the first place. And I definitely needed to move forward. So I got what I considered a harebrained idea of like, what if I do this again and scale it? And so I went to my next members meeting and said, hey, you guys, I have this idea. [00:17:30] Is this a good idea or is this a stupid idea? And I kind of laid it out. Like what? Brenda's story. And Brenda was actually there, so she got to tell her own story. Nancy McClelland: Wait, so you actually told, like the members of your like, so you're not talking about team members in your business. You're talking about the people who are actually in your coaching. Alicia Katz Pollock: In the Royal Wise Owls program. Nancy McClelland: Oh, wow. That's awesome. I love that you took that question to them. Alicia Katz Pollock: Mhm. Yeah. [00:18:00] It was like I needed to see if this was a good idea or not. Like, you know, like on the, on the surface, the cynical skeptic would say, oh, people are paying her to do the bookkeeping. And I'm like, but that's not the story at all. But that was like the little voice in the back of my head. Oh, and, and then I realized that what it really was, was a training opportunity that I that if there are so many bookkeepers, as we're talking about in this episode, [00:18:30] undervalue their skills and underestimate themselves. And they so many of my members are really good bookkeepers that they don't have the confidence or they don't know enough about the QuickBooks piece of it, or I have a lot of people who are just utter beginners. I also have business owners who are doing the bookkeeping in their own business for their own businesses as employees. Questian Telka: Why do you think this happens? Why do you think that many technically excellent bookkeepers undervalue themselves? Alicia Katz Pollock: I mean, this is why do you have a [00:19:00] podcast? There's a whole. Nancy McClelland: Just. Alicia Katz Pollock: Human beings are human beings are wired for insecurity. So I'm just going to leave the conversation there on that. Nancy McClelland: Um, oh my gosh, I hope that we end up using that as a clip for promoting this episode because that is so true. Like, yeah, you're right. That is, it is, it is one of the most human things, right? Like this concept. Like if you're a helper. If [00:19:30] you're an implementer, like, you know, you, you're, you are the QuickBooks queen. You know how to do, you know, QuickBooks inside and out like in ask a CPA and Alicia is a member of ask CPA, which I love, but she also comes and teaches at Asca CPA. When we've got like QuickBooks deep dives because like, she knows all the things about QuickBooks, but you probably are looking at yourself being like, oh, yeah, I know how to do that. Would that, would that only take me ten minutes? Right. Like, right. You know. Alicia Katz Pollock: And, but the knowledge isn't, it's [00:20:00] not about like, hey, look at me. I can do this in ten minutes is, hey, here's all this expertise that you need in your practice to speed up your efficiency and your skills and your confidence. So I realized that it was, it was not just the QuickBooks skills that I bring to the table. It's also the practice management and using double and the technology and the client relationships and, and all of that. And so I checked in with the team, with the group, and I said, well, is this something [00:20:30] that you would be interested in doing? Would any of you be interested in doing this kind of incubator? And they jumped on it. And like, people were like, oh my God, Alicia, that's a great idea. I would love to study under you. I would love hands on experience in real bookkeeping scenarios because every single one is different. None of us have two clients that are that are exactly right, and everybody's got their own issues. And even, you know, you've got that couple clients that even [00:21:00] when things should be going smooth, there's always something. Nancy McClelland: Mhm. Alicia Katz Pollock: And like, how do you deal with that? And so the, the, the response I got was enthusiastic. So then I put together a, um, a survey and I said, well, like, how much time would you expect? How many clients would you expect? How much would you be willing to, to pay to be part of this program? And I started framing it in my head as a new tier of service. You know, like that upper level tier, that's like five times [00:21:30] the value of the other things that you're doing. And, you know, like I put a price range on it from like $5,000 a month to $25,000 a month, you know, and to see where people would be willing to pay. And some weren't willing to pay much and some were like, whatever the price, it's going to be worth it, whatever. Nancy McClelland: Because it's invaluable because like, this is the because that bridges that gap between your, you know, you've, you've learned all of this, you have this [00:22:00] book learning, we'll call it right. But like now you get a sandbox, real life, real clients, real communication, real, um, you know, curveballs, right? Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. And kind of the idea or the model that I'm putting together is that I'm going to start by, I'm going to be doing the bookkeeping and they're going to watch me. So there's going to be the modeling, and then the next month they're going to be doing the bookkeeping while I talk them through. And we'll do that for [00:22:30] as many months as it takes for each person or which client. Some of them obviously are easier than others. And then after, you know, 5 or 6 months, they should be working independently. And then all I have to do is the reviews. And so that's kind of the, the model of it. Nancy McClelland: I love this because it's, it's like, so, you know, we talk a lot about value pricing in our industry, which is something I still haven't embraced fully. But the one concept of it that I [00:23:00] completely agree with, sorry, I just question. I should laugh at me. I haven't. Questian Telka: Embraced at all. Nancy McClelland: At all, which I haven't embraced at all. Yes, this is true. You're you're right. Thank you for calling me out on that. This is why we're such good friends. I can you tell it like it is? Um. All right. So I haven't embraced value pricing at all. I've got some problems with it. We'll have a whole episode about that some other time. However. However, there is one concept [00:23:30] and value pricing that I feel is so accurate, which is when everything depends on you, right? And your hands and your knowledge. And it's, that's, that's, that's what you are billing for. That's what you're charging for. Your time fills up and there's a cap, right? That's right. But when your expertise can be multiplied through others, your impact expands, right? So it's not just like a greedy, I want more money, [00:24:00] which is how I had thought of value pricing for so many years. It's just I want more money and I want to figure out a way to bilk my clients and to get everything I can get. And I don't want to leave anything on the table, when in fact, it's not just that you can, um, charge for more time than you're actually Spending on something because you only have 365 days a year and so many hours in a day, you're actually making a bigger impact. You're actually bringing more value to the world and finding that [00:24:30] overlap of like, where, what are you really, really gifted at and what does the world need? Right. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. And so circling, circling back around to like how I added that back into my structure is I also realized that that essentially this is a paid internship that sure, they're participating in a training program, but they need to be paid for the work that they're doing. And so I thought, which. Nancy McClelland: Is kind of what was happening with Brenda, like that was organically [00:25:00] the structure of it. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right. And with, with Brenda, she was, I was paying her hourly for the time it was taking, but I realized for this model that it was not going to work. So what I decided to do was like, okay, well, in a, in a normal firm, you, the, the staff working on the books get a percentage of the client engagement. And so I wanted them to have most of the money from the client engagement because they're going to be doing most of the work. So I looked at my expenses and how I was going to be able to make it work. And I was like, okay, 60% [00:25:30] feels feels good to me. So the arrangement is that they are paid interns. And my lawyer said, oh, by the way, they can't be contractors. They have to be employees. So I was, when I put this in place, I was not expecting to hire five employees, but now I am hiring five employees. And they their salary, their salaried flat rate based on 60%. You know, I'm going to be totally transparent about all this 60% of the client fees that they're getting. And so they're paid employees. So I just doubled [00:26:00] my company size. Nancy McClelland: From. Alicia Katz Pollock: 5 to 10 with five part time paid salaried monthly employees that are going. Nancy McClelland: You know what my life feels like, Alicia? It's hard. I mean, and, and I'm going to throw in and ask a CPE a thing here, which was you had asked. That was a question that you posted was, hey, I'm registering for for, you know, in all of these different states and I gotta register for unemployment and how does this work? And they're asking [00:26:30] me these questions and what are they really saying and all of that. And the reason that I know those things is not just from getting my master's and my CPA, but like, I've had to do that and I've found states where I'm like, I am never hiring an employee in that state again because it's so awful. So like, there's something that you need to keep in mind as you're doing this. Make sure you find out what state somebody is from before you hire them. Come to ask a CPA and ask first. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, a couple of a couple of my states. Not only did I have to [00:27:00] register for unemployment, but there was another employment tax. So some of them were like twice as much. But for me, that's exciting because I'm learning something new that I did not know about the industry. So I'm getting additional training and exposure to the bigger picture myself. So it's a. Nancy McClelland: It's like you're reframing for opportunity and new learning at every possible turn here. I mean, like this is you reassessing your own value and reframing things and, [00:27:30] and doing something really scary is actually like, even if financially it weren't to pay off, which it sounds like it absolutely will because this is, this is really smart pricing. Um, like this is, this has an inherent intrinsic value. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I built it not just with the bookkeeping component. I was like, okay, if I'm going to train them as an incubator to that, they can have their own bookkeeping practice at the end of this. They also need some things that I [00:28:00] don't provide, like, how do you run a bookkeeping firm? Right? I can like our model, but not the accounting lifecycle and things like that. So I'm talking to Mariette Martinez, for example, about doing her accounting life cycle course and enrolling all of my clients, all of these interns into that program. Nancy McClelland: And so another theater of public speaking sister. Alicia Katz Pollock: And then I was like, okay, but then they're also going to need some of the emotional support and the, the sounding board [00:28:30] things. I'm like, well, I'm part of Richard Roper's roundtable. What if we had a little mini roundtable for them that was that I was not a part of. So that if they had problems with me or the way the incubator was going, they had a safe space to talk about that, that kind of personal growth, or to be able to manage what's happening with me, because Richard and I, Richard's actually my business coach as well. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: And so I was like, okay, let's actually build in additional trainings to this. And [00:29:00] I also every summer run a hands on training. We call it the hot course, where I'm running the textbook that I teach that's literally click by click and step by step building companies from scratch. And so I was like, okay, if I'm going to do this, it's not just the doing, the servicing the clients. I want them to take my hands on training class. I want them to have a sounding board round table where they can either get personal accounting therapy or a [00:29:30] grievance panel if it's needed, but you know, how much of that. Um, and then also the, the, the bookkeeping training part that I is not my level of expertise. So I kind of parsed out like, okay, if they're going to do all of these things, like if they were to pay for each of these a la carte, how much would it cost to take Marriot's class? How much would it cost to take my hands on class? How much would it cost to be part of Round Table? And how much does it cost for my time as a consultant? And I kind [00:30:00] of like, you know, did the calculations and came up with a dollar amount, which came to roughly, it was like $19,000. I'm like, who the heck is going to pay $19,000 to be part of this. Nancy McClelland: And per year or per month, or like 19,000 a year, per year, per year. Alicia Katz Pollock: And then and so, but, but again, I asked, and they're like, yeah, we will, in fact, we want to and we're excited about this. So I did some things with the pricing also, like since they're already my members and this is essentially [00:30:30] a new membership tier, they're getting prorated discounts for what they already are paying okay to participate. Nancy McClelland: So so there, let me get this, let me get this straight. So they're going to pay you $19,000 a year for all of this, including what you're getting from from Richard and Mariette and, and royal wise, but then you will be paying them 60% of the actual client fees of the clients that they're working on. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yes. [00:31:00] Nancy McClelland: That's awesome. That is so cool. And by the way, before I forget, I want to mention. Let's make sure that we give them the free annual bookkeeping review PDF, um, from ask a CPA. I want to give that to them for free. And maybe we can even give them an ask a CPA discount. That would be. Alicia Katz Pollock: Great. Nancy McClelland: That would be great. Yeah. As a matter of fact, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna I'm going to give you a discount code for these people in your coaching group who are doing this, [00:31:30] but I'm actually going to put the link to the annual the Asca CPA Annual Bookkeepers Guide to Annual reviews in the show notes. And then anybody who listens to this can at least get that the free download on that. Alicia Katz Pollock: That's fantastic. Nancy McClelland: Thank you for the inspiration, Alicia. I appreciate. Alicia Katz Pollock: It. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, and then I was like, okay, well, what if I got some sponsors for this? And I approached double because we're using double in the practice. And so they were willing to kick in a small sponsorship. And, [00:32:00] you know, my team was like, oh, well, you should, you're going to need that for operations. And I'm like, no, I'm going to use it as a scholarship for, for these folks. And so. Oh, that's so cool. Amount down and gave everybody a small scholarship to reduce the, reduce the costs, you know, even further. And then I gave them tears. You can pay it all up. You can, you can pay monthly, you can pay quarterly and get a 5% discount, or you can pay one lump sum annually and get a 10% discount. And [00:32:30] I got responses across the board and. Questian Telka: I love that. Nancy McClelland: Amazing. Questian Telka: I love that you offered scholarships. But I also heard you say earlier was that you created a space for grievances, which most people I just find that very insightful. And, you know, so it's really important, um, to have that as an option for them as well. So anyway, I just wanted to comment and say that I think that that's amazing. Um, and I have a question. So when you, when you first got to the point where you were [00:33:00] naming or coming up with a the dollar amount because of, you know, your, your client levels and this idea of undervaluing, how did it make you feel at that number? I know you kind of touched on it a little bit, but, you know. Alicia Katz Pollock: I mean, I was distinctly uncomfortable with asking anybody for that. Nancy McClelland: Well, how come though? Because I mean, I, I'm, I'm the same way. Um, but like, [00:33:30] I even for myself, it's hard to identify is that because like, you're worried that you're going to be perceived as greedy or like what made what made you uncomfortable? What about it? Alicia Katz Pollock: A couple of things. Part of it's just poverty consciousness. You know, everybody wants to spend a minimum amount of money, right? Um, part of it is I don't want to price anybody out of the opportunity that, you know. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: There is an element here of you have to have resources in [00:34:00] order to participate. And at this point, there's nothing that I can do about that. The. It is. It is costing me money to do this. I have to be compensated for it. Questian Telka: So yeah, I know, I mean, you're not somebody said to me once very recently, um, that I run my business like a nonprofit. And I thought. Nancy McClelland: Oh God. Questian Telka: It's not entirely untrue. Nancy McClelland: To me. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right. Nancy McClelland: Mark keeps telling me, my husband says, you know, some I [00:34:30] do so many trades with clients, uh, when they can't afford to pay me. Um, and, uh, he joked for years that one day I was going to come home with like, a live chicken or something like that. Well, guess what? One of my clients ended up raising chickens in her backyard, and she gave us eggs. Alicia Katz Pollock: My husband comes home with eggs. He he barters his apple training. He goes to this lady's house and he cleans up her junk mail. And he she, we get eggs. So. Nancy McClelland: I mean, there's there's good and bad for that. [00:35:00] Questian Telka: Yeah. The point I was trying to make there was just that, you know, you, you have to price it and value yourself appropriately. And I know Nancy and I are both guilty of, you know, not always doing that so well. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. And it's weird because like I on the one hand, you say we're guilty of it and. Yes, but is it all bad? Like, it's not all bad because like Alicia's talking about how she doesn't want to price people out of this, right? Because she because she knows it's an amazing opportunity. And so, Alicia, [00:35:30] you I feel like you're hitting all the right things here because you're doing what question is saying and you're and you're, you know, you're not going to be guilty of undervaluing yourself. You're, you're valuing yourself properly and properly. However, you're also offering you're using the sponsorship to offer scholarships. So you are simultaneously addressing the thing that would have made you potentially feel super uncomfortable. Alicia Katz Pollock: Right? I mean, honestly, I underestimated the amount of [00:36:00] time it was going to take me for the setup component of this. So, you know, that's, that's my learning experience with this is, you know, when I started it and priced it was before I talked to my lawyer who said, oh, by the way, they're not contractors, they're employees. I was like, oh, okay, great. Now I got to do employer taxes and I have to register in all these states and do all this other stuff. And, you know, but I welcome that challenge. That's no problem. Um, but the, the, the, I really framing it in my [00:36:30] head of, okay, if the, the demonstrated outcome of working with me has already been somebody who is pulling in $10,000 a month, $19,000 a year is a valuable investment to be able to get to that place, because I have every confidence that I'm going to be able to train these folks so that they can look at any set of books and know what, either know what to do or know where to find the answers. Nancy McClelland: And then you're going to have all of these people [00:37:00] who are like, oh my gosh, I participated in this amazing program. They're going to tell other people about it, and this will just keep going and going and going. I mean, what? Alicia Katz Pollock: Let me just respond to that. I mean, honestly, the exit strategy is up in the air. I'm very, very crystal clear with them that this is a pilot program, that we are building this together based on the expectation and how it actually turns pans out that there's going to be some some probable bumps in the road, but [00:37:30] we're absolutely together going to work it out. So it works for everybody. And we don't also know what the exit strategy is. Is this program going to continue next year with a new group of people? Is it going to be just we're going to work this out and they're going to become my staff? Are they going to become next year's trainers or is it going to stay a cohort of five? Or do we go to ten? Like the possibilities are out there. But until I actually put it through its paces and see how it works and see what works and what needs to be jiggered. [00:38:00] Um, I don't know what next year is going to hold and. Nancy McClelland: None, none of that even occurred to me, by the way, like those, those that having that kind of imagination just doesn't even exist. I don't have that. It's not like a part of my brain. I don't even know where you're. I love that you have this entire group who's actually participating in the program that are helping you find your way and come up with ideas about how it could work. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. It's co-creation. [00:38:30] It really is that they were just game. They know it's a good idea. And we're going to design this amazing program. Yeah. On the fly. Questian Telka: That's why the community and mentorship and collaboration is so important. What, um, what caused you to decide that rather than, rather than to shrink, to Expand. Like what? Where was that decision? Alicia Katz Pollock: There's [00:39:00] there's a couple different elements about it. I mean, one of the things is that my brain never stops. I always want new and bigger and better. And, and, hey, can we do this? And can we do this? And can we do this? There's the part of me that wants to grow the company. There's the part of me who wants to learn even more about what's happening in the industry. And honestly, you know, I've got 10 to 15 years before retirement and I want to be able to sell my company. And I, in order to do that, I [00:39:30] have to have something worth selling. Yeah. So, you know, it's one thing to have a book of business of 30 clients, and it's another thing to have 500 people that I support all the way through the year that are just appointment based appointments, but that's not going to show up on a balance sheet in order to, for somebody to, to buy royal eyes. And so I was like, okay, well, what are some of these other strategies? Because in the long term, and, you know, I'm just being completely transparent here that right [00:40:00] now, Royal Wise is based on me and Jamie, my husband Jamie, who's our Apple trainer. We are the trainers right now. We are the product. And at least as far as the public exposure goes and the, the training curriculum. But then, you know, there's just the practices that both and I, both he and I, our daily is helping people directly with their, with their technology. Um, but that's not something that you can sell. That's me helping clean up somebody's books [00:40:30] and that's him dialing in somebody new computer or teaching them how not to get scammed through email. That's not something that we can sell. Questian Telka: So you want to create something that something that you can sell or that creates some sort of passive income so that you don't have to constantly be touching it, right? I mean, that's. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, yeah. It can't, the company can't center on me and Jamie forever. And so figuring out how to grow royal wise in a way that is bigger than both of us. Nancy McClelland: Well, [00:41:00] that's actually a great, uh, that is a great segue, um, into this, the concept that, um, we discussed, like when we were first thinking about this story, um, you know, in question and I were just like, oh my gosh, this, this could be such a useful topic for the she counts listeners. Technical mastery of something doesn't prepare us for stepping into authority and leadership, right? Like this, this [00:41:30] skills that accounting professionals develop naturally from the work that we do versus skills that like nobody teaches us. That's, you know, owning authority and communicating the value of your work and, um. Questian Telka: Running a business. Yeah. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Questian Telka: Running a business versus working in it, which has been always been a struggle for me, which this this scaling factor, you know? Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. And allowing others to grow beyond you. You know, like with, with Brenda and, you know, like, [00:42:00] that's, these are, these are concepts that like, it's not normal for us to develop these. Somebody has to teach them to us or I mean, like, I know you and I have both had really great experiences at, at reframe. Um, and that's sort of a Hector Garcia's, uh, conference, which is teaches us to position as an expert and teaches us about pricing and teaches us about communicating our value. Right. Um, like, [00:42:30] do you, do you feel like this, is that turning point for you when you're shifting from this difference between like knowing the material and owning your authority? Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's analogous on the surface to the whole thing. Like people think that because they know how to use QuickBooks, they know how to do bookkeeping, right? And they're not the. Nancy McClelland: Same. Questian Telka: Not the. Alicia Katz Pollock: Same. And I'm the first person to say that because my company is built on using the software. But even if you're an expert in [00:43:00] the software, there's still this other piece. And Roy Wise has never touched on that part of it. Nancy McClelland: Which is one of the reasons that you're, you're a member of in such a huge supporter of ask a CPA and, you know, and, and roundtable and, you know, Marriott's, uh, business, like you see those other pieces of the puzzle out there. Alicia Katz Pollock: Exactly. And why I'm bringing those pieces of the puzzle in with me to. Because you can't do it all alone. Um, but then the fact that you just brought up brought up reframe. That was also a [00:43:30] big piece of this that I was really struck by Blair Ende's book. You know, he gave away copies of it. And I've been reading it and he's got this experts mantra, and I've actually got the book right here that. Nancy McClelland: Oh, so for people who are watching, hold that up for just a second. I'm going to see that. Okay. Alicia Katz Pollock: All right. Lauren's book. Nancy McClelland: The four conversations. Okay. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Okay. And and so in, in, in, um, Blair's book, the four conversations, he's got this expert's mantra. I am the expert. I [00:44:00] am the prize. I am on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. I accept that not all will follow. And that's your focus, your purpose, your leadership, and your detachment. And I was like, and that's when I kind of shifted in my thinking a little bit. And it's like, okay, my value is not me being able to untangle complicated books. That's what I do. And it has value, but that's not my value. I have [00:44:30] this unique value proposition of the the total package. You know, I have a master's in teaching, but I'm not teaching seventh grade English. I'm I'm teaching, I don't I'm teaching people who want to be there and are hungry for knowledge, and that I have this authority and I have this expertise and I have this experience, and I have this confidence, and I have this, um, stack of resources, you know, all the people that I've worked with at Intuit [00:45:00] that if something's wrong in the software, I don't always call support. I go ping the PM. Who's responsible for that? Nancy McClelland: For that, it's because you're the queen of QuickBooks. I mean. Questian Telka: Like. Nancy McClelland: Of course you do. Because look who I am. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. Nancy McClelland: Um, and. Alicia Katz Pollock: You know, and I'm a conversation like this that we're having right now, like vulnerability is not in my skill set. And the fact that we're like talking this deep about the program is uncomfortable to me. [00:45:30] And, you know, part of me is like, well, wait, am I like pulling the curtain back? Back aside too far? Questian Telka: No. Nancy McClelland: Which speaks to it speaks to the role we talk about this on. She counts all the time. It speaks to the role that community and mentorship can play in helping each other find and speak their value. I mean, if it weren't for question, oh my gosh, like the, the, I would still be doing [00:46:00] probably every single webinar I've ever, ever taught for free. You know, she's the one who it's because I would feel so uncomfortable asking because I didn't want anybody to think I was too big for my britches. Right. Like the it, this, the this role of community and mentorship and, and that is part of what allows us to be vulnerable and all of what you're talking about. I mean, this is this is a risk. Questian Telka: Oh, yeah. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah. [00:46:30] Nancy McClelland: Failure's really personal. And it's a super hard thing to be like. I'm just going to I'm just going to tell the world about it. I'm going to tell all of my podcast listeners and all of the She Counts podcast listeners that this is what I'm doing. Questian Telka: Yeah. And it's a, it is a risk. And, you know, I'm actually, I'm not ready to share about it yet, but I'm going through a business shift and change myself too. And it's like, it is terrifying when you are doing that. And I [00:47:00] can't wait till I am to the point where I'm ready to share what it is, but it's not completely finished. So, um, but yeah, it's a huge, it's a huge risk because I'm trying to own my authority, which I know is there, which is what we're talking about. But, um, it's also kind of terrifying when you're making such a dramatic change. Yeah. But you know, we have to do it anyway. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. Do it anyway. Alicia Katz Pollock: And, you know, here we are talking [00:47:30] about it when like, I'm in the infancy of this idea. I just got the idea two months ago. Asked my folks six weeks ago. Got the yeses and have been actively putting it in place for the next month. And, you know, one of the things that's really important to me is, is the intellectual capital inside the US that our industry right now is doing a lot of outsourcing. Yeah. And there's not a lot of there's and with between that and [00:48:00] AI, there's a decreasing opportunity for us based bookkeepers. But oh my God, that's so true. You need to keep it in-house. We need to have. Nancy McClelland: I say this all the time because like. Alicia Katz Pollock: Talented people here in our. Mhm. Nancy McClelland: Well, and I, you know, I mentioned, uh, because your listeners may not may not know who I am and haven't heard, uh, the she counts podcast before. Um, my business, my CPA firm is hyper local. It's not just Chicago, like it's Logan [00:48:30] Square and the three surrounding neighborhoods. And so we're always like shop small, stay local because it like, you know, keeps dollars in our communities with small businesses. And so like, you're kind of doing that with this training program, you're offering that opportunity that otherwise doesn't really exist unless you're, unless you have an internship or something like that. Alicia Katz Pollock: And then there's also the component. Can I help them get jobs after that? Like that's also this [00:49:00] inquiry. And I'm a member of the BDO Alliance. And, you know, maybe I can use this as a feeder program, you know, so just we're still just like having throwing out ideas to see what sticks. And I just want, I just want to do right by these people. That's what's most important to me is that I, that the five people who have trusted me to start this process and pilot the program with me that, um, you know, I'm grateful that. Nancy McClelland: I love that you're specifically [00:49:30] calling them out as people you're grateful to because, I mean, when I started as a CPA, oh my gosh, it was it was because of a few people in Bookkeeping Buds who were like, I just want to pay you to ask you questions. Yeah. And she was, you. Questian Telka: Were always so helpful. And then I remember you came to me and you said, I'm thinking about starting this community. And I was like, do it, do it. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, I mean. Questian Telka: You should because there's nobody it's [00:50:00] so intimidating as a bookkeeper, um, when you're not. So it's like you and you teach about, uh, about this, like the tax ready bookkeeper, right? And this relationship between bookkeepers and a lot of CPAs. And it's so important for bookkeepers to have somebody that they trust that they feel comfortable with going to, to ask questions. And so there's a lot of value there. Nancy McClelland: And yet, you know, you were like, do it, do it, do it. And what did I say back to [00:50:30] you? I was like, who would want to pay in a group to ask me questions as if I'm some expert. And you were like. Alicia Katz Pollock: You are an expert, Nancy. Yeah, yeah, you're my expert, Nancy. If I'm going to ask a question, I'm going to ask you. Nancy McClelland: I'm yours. Yeah, you're I'm yours and you're mine. And yeah, it it's just I mean, there's obviously there's a broader lesson for listeners here, right? Like, well, probably a bunch of them. There's recognizing the value you create even when it feels like ordinary for [00:51:00] you. Questian Telka: There's, we talked a lot about vulnerability and being vulnerable and stepping into leadership and. Alicia Katz Pollock: You know, and the, and the ability to expand really happens when you step into your own worth. Nancy McClelland: Totally, totally. Oh my God, I am so like on fire right now. I'm so excited for you, Alicia. I'm I'm serious. I am so excited to hear what happens next. And [00:51:30] I'm so excited to celebrate with you, and I'm so excited to hear how this morphs. But you want to know what I'm most excited about? What question said? You're doing it anyway. Like, oh, you know what question the QuickBooks, um, unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast they probably don't know about do it anyway. Do you mind sharing quickly about our concept there? Questian Telka: Yeah, Nancy and I have an entire episode on, um, facing your fears, like, so accepting [00:52:00] the fact that doing something different, um, is terrifying and to embrace it and do it anyway, you know, Alicia's going through this shift right now. I'm sure it's terrifying and scary and I'm going through a huge change and shift as well. Nancy, you were scared when you started as a CPA. And so that episode is us talking about all about kind of leaning in to that fear and doing it anyway. Nancy McClelland: Absolutely. Because [00:52:30] it makes me so crazy when people are like, don't be afraid. I'm like, no, be afraid. It's like the most human thing possible. Don't tell somebody not to be afraid. Like we can't help it. We, of course, are afraid. It's like, it's just it's in our nature. Yeah, yeah. Our brains are trying to protect us. Like, oh, gosh, you could get eaten by a tiger. Questian Telka: Well, the fear, what I, what I've been telling myself, which is in the episode, what I've been telling myself most recently over and over and over [00:53:00] again is I'm on the right track because I am absolutely terrified. Nancy McClelland: Yeah. That's how you know. Questian Telka: That's how I know. Nancy McClelland: Oh my gosh. I always learn so much when we get together with our friends on this show. Uh, Alicia, thank you so much for suggesting a crossover episode in the first place. Questian Telka: Yeah, this was so much fun. Alicia Katz Pollock: Yeah, it really, it really, really was. I mean, we both listened to each other's There's podcasts and [00:53:30] the, the perspective that you bring to this incubator idea, like you're adding to the perspective, like things I didn't think about or recognizing my own role in it. I'm always just like, okay, do this stuff. Get the tasks done, get the lists, get the SOPs, make sure everybody's taken care of. You know, those. Nancy McClelland: Are all important to I don't want anybody to think those aren't important. Alicia Katz Pollock: But, you know, realizing that it's also personal growth for me is like, that's actually a revelation [00:54:00] for me. Yeah. Yeah. Nancy McClelland: That warms my heart. I'm so glad to hear you say that. Questian Telka: As we wrap up, we'd like to ask all of our listeners to follow our She Counts podcast LinkedIn page and to join in on this conversation by sharing under the episode why brilliant bookkeepers underValue themselves. What is an example of when you've undervalued yourself and how did you move past it? What did you do to get around it? [00:54:30] Alicia Katz Pollock: And you can also have that conversation in the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast LinkedIn group. We have one also since we are crossing this episode over. So I would love to hear that same thing as well. And well, before we sign off, we want to leave you with a quote from Oprah Winfrey. You get in life what you have the courage to ask for. Nancy McClelland: Oh, I love that. Thank you all so much for being here with us on She Counts the Real Talk [00:55:00] podcast for Women in Accounting. Alicia Katz Pollock: And on the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast, where we break down the latest QuickBooks news, features, and workflows for accounting professionals. Questian Telka: If something in today's episode hit home for you, well, that's exactly why we're doing it. Nancy McClelland: So you feel seen, heard, and never alone. Alicia Katz Pollock: And remember, you can get CPE credit for listening. Go to earmark.app. Um, links to that as well as how to learn more about our sponsor [00:55:30] solutions and lots of other resources we've mentioned. Those are all in the show notes. Questian Telka: And as always, we would ask you to please subscribe. Leave us a review because it helps other people find both of the podcasts. Alicia Katz Pollock: And huge thanks to you question and Nancy and the She Counts podcast for this really fun collaboration. This is a great conversation, totally different than I would have ever generated myself. And so I'm really delighted. So I'm really glad [00:56:00] that our combined audiences could take part in this today. Nancy McClelland: Us too. Thank you so much, Alicia. We'll see everyone in two weeks for us and in one for Alicia. Alicia Katz Pollock: And on behalf of the unofficial QuickBooks accountants podcast, we will see. Nancy McClelland: You in the next one.