Latest / Celeste The Therapist / EP 523 Celebrating Jeff Rogers:Lessons on Love and Life

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EP 523 Celebrating Jeff Rogers:Lessons on Love and Life · Celeste The Therapist

0:04
Hey, thank you so much for joining another episode of Celesta Therapist Podcast.
0:09
This is a dedication podcast. My
0:14
sound engineer has been waiting for me to record this
0:18
because he's putting some pieces together and I'm
0:22
realizing as I'm recording it that I've been procrastinating
0:26
because I don't I can't believe I'm recording this. Fuck,
0:30
so bad. All right, I'm gonna try to do this. I
0:34
cannot believe that I'm recording this. Okay,
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here we go. This sucks so bad.
0:41
All right, so... All right, this episode
0:45
is... All right, so this episode is dedicated
0:49
to Jeff Rogers. Jeff Rogers has
0:53
been a huge part of my podcast. And if you've
0:56
been a long-time listener, then you know
1:00
that we did a segment for a few years
1:04
called Let's Talk About Relationships. This
1:08
was actually Jeff's idea to do the segment the
1:11
way we did it. Jeff had me on his podcast back in
1:17
2019, and he is somebody that was
1:23
freaking challenging. He challenges the
1:26
way you think. He pushes you out of your comfort zone. And
1:30
so I enjoyed our episode so much that I
1:34
asked him to come on my podcast. At the time, once
1:38
a month I had different people come on and
1:42
we would talk about relationships. Me
1:46
and another guest would talk about relationships. And
1:51
we had a segment, and it was challenging monogamy.
1:55
It was actually a really good conversation. So
2:00
May 27, 2019, we had an episode called
2:04
Challenging Monogamy. So that
2:07
was the first time he was on my podcast episode. It's actually
2:11
a really popular episode. I'll make sure to tag it
2:16
in the show notes. That was our very first episode. And
2:19
then I messaged him. I was going through our
2:22
texts. We text so much. I said, hey, would
2:26
you want to be my monthly guest where we talk about relationships? We
2:29
talk about a different topic each time. And
2:33
he was like, yeah, he was like, sure, let's do it. And
2:37
he was like, but let's switch it up a little bit. Let's let the audience
2:41
access questions about relationships. And
2:44
I was like, oh my God, that's good. Like he's super, he was, he
2:48
was, he was, he was super innovative in
2:52
that way. He would definitely like come
2:56
up with all these cool ideas. and then 2020 we
3:00
started monthly we started talking about relationships and
3:04
people will ask questions we had some really great questions it wasn't just intimate
3:07
relationships we talked about your co-workers we talked about
3:11
roommates like so many episodes right at the end of
3:14
each episode I would have Jeff wrap up the episode because
3:17
he just does an amazing job at like putting things together And
3:21
we've had three live shows, right? Our first live show
3:25
was in 2021. It was the pandemic. Was
3:28
it 2021 or 2020? Our first live episode
3:32
was in 2021 in November. And
3:44
we actually, our birthdays are two days apart. Anyways, yeah,
3:48
that was our first live and
3:51
it was so good. And at the end of each, you know, I would have him
3:55
wrap it up. The only reason why we stopped, and if you've been
3:58
listening to the podcast for a while, I've transitioned from interviewing people
4:02
to doing it on my own because I started
4:05
a wellness center in a process of opening up something else and
4:10
we had talked about coming back to this in next
4:14
year. He passed away on
4:18
September 7th. And
4:24
I want to dedicate this episode to him. He
4:28
was inspirational for me. I
4:31
think differently than a lot of people. I'm very much
4:35
a doer and intentional. And the
4:38
advice he gives, I feel like his advice was very
4:42
straight to the point. And mine was more like, let me
4:45
ease you up into some truth, right? His was just like, bam,
4:49
here you go. But it was always on point, like I
4:52
just enjoyed hearing his answers. I
4:56
enjoyed hearing him speak and I am
5:00
going to miss him. I was listening to some
5:03
of our episodes and like you
5:06
would never not, even if we talked about hard things on the
5:09
episode, you would find me laughing because we
5:13
would just joke and clown each other all the time. he
5:17
cared deeply about people. I remember one
5:20
episode because during the pandemic we had a lot of engagement
5:24
live because we would do these episodes live and someone
5:27
was like writing. I think they wanted to come out like they were struggling with
5:31
their sexuality and he like after I
5:34
remember so after this podcast we would talk sometimes about it
5:37
or text about it And he was really thinking about that person, and
5:41
that person came back another time. And
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he was so happy. We don't even know these people, right? These
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are random people on social media that would
5:51
come on, and he really cared. It's
5:54
rare you find people like that. And he
5:58
had no agenda. It wasn't like, I need to have
6:01
people do it my way. It was like, OK, what way do you want? All right, this is
6:04
what you're going to do. He was just so dope. I
6:09
got through it. I'm so proud of myself. This episode is
6:14
dedicated to Jeff Rogers. I axed
6:18
Sidney. Shout out to Sidney. I'll
6:21
make sure to tag him in the show notes. He
6:24
was actually my first audio engineer. when I first started
6:27
podcasting and um he's really good at storytelling and
6:32
putting pieces together but I asked him you know
6:35
after I found out he passed away I really wanted to
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honor him and we have over 40 episodes I just picked
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random like four or five random episodes and
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asked him to um pull out some words from
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Jeff. Each episode there was always some insight
6:53
and so I haven't listened to it yet, but
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I know Sydney's going to pull out some good stuff. And
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I really hope you enjoy this episode. I really
7:05
hope that you enjoy what he has to say.
7:08
I know it's going to be good because
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Jeff would always say amazing things. So
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thank you so much for listening and rocking out with me. And here's
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Jeff and me. First,
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I need you to tell people who you are and what you do.
7:33
So I'm an executive coach, trainer, facilitator, all those that
7:37
help people get out their own way. There's things that you want to do
7:40
where you find that it's you that's blocking you. Sometimes you think it's other people that's
7:43
blocking you. Oftentimes at the base, what you find out is something
7:47
you're doing is permitting people to block you or letting
7:50
people block you. Or maybe you look at it like they're blocking you because of
7:54
how you're looking at it. So in the end, it's about helping
7:57
people find what they need in themselves to
8:00
it could be executives. It could be, uh, leaders in
8:04
an organization. It could be whoever in life find a way to
8:08
get out your own way and stop doing that thing that stops you from being the you
8:15
So for people listening that may be hearing for the first time that there's
8:18
a possibility I might be in my own way, is it something that just can
8:22
take place overnight? Or is it a process, do
8:27
Well, first of all, everyone listening, it's almost certain that
8:30
you're in your own way in some way. That's almost a guarantee, right?
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But the thing is, oftentimes these
8:38
patterns, people sometimes think of attributes as good or bad, but
8:41
a more useful way to think of them is failure modes. Failure
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modes are the ways that the thing that you do that oftentimes works for you,
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they keep on getting so much positive feedback that they're not willing to change it, because
8:52
it does work sometimes. For example, Drug addicts,
8:56
people who struggle with drug addiction, when they, at
8:59
first, they want to feel great, they take the drug, they do feel great. Then
9:03
slowly but surely, they only feel great sometimes. But I mean, sometimes
9:06
they do feel great, and I do like feeling great. And then now they mostly feel
9:09
bad, and the drug is just a reprieve from feeling bad. In
9:13
other words, if I don't do heroin, it's like I'll get the flu in six months. But
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if I do it, I'll just feel neutral. And that's how you end up living on masks and
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when you say changing is one of the most hardest things you can
9:25
do, what do you mean by that? Because there's a lot of self-help books out
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there. There's a lot of like people that are giving advice about
9:32
life. So the information is there. So it's not the actual
9:35
tangible information that we don't have. What is it about the
9:42
Well, you know how when you're driving, you ever been driving and then you realize
9:46
like, damn, I have not been paying attention in 10 minutes. How did I not hit anybody? And
9:49
how did it like, how am I still on my way home? You know what I mean? Human
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beings have an autopilot. You can do things just because it's your pattern. You
9:57
can't necessarily drive to a place you've never been there before on autopilot, but
10:00
you can certainly drive from your job to your house without even really thinking about
10:04
taking a right or taking a left anymore. And in fact, you
10:07
can be on autopilot in life in a lot of ways. Where you just
10:10
kind of operate, you go through the motions. Why do you work there when
10:14
you hate it? Well, you know, that's where I work. Why are you still together? You
10:18
know, it seems like you fight more than you have good days. Yeah,
10:21
but I mean, that's just what we do. Basically autopiloting your way
10:25
through life. And change is scary. And oftentimes the
10:28
patterns people are in, they're in them for a reason. And so you have to
10:31
be intentional. in order to punch through and
10:34
be free. But oftentimes, if you do it again, you
10:38
can get towards something better. So I'm sure there's some plants in
10:41
your yard. I know Celeste is in the gardening now. So there was plants
10:45
in the yard before, but it wasn't the plants you wanted. You didn't want dandelions. You
10:48
wanted whatever, rutabagas, whatever you're growing. And
10:52
so you, with some work, you're able to
10:55
slowly remove the plants you didn't want, add the plants that you did.
10:58
You got to water them. They don't just happen. But in the end, you actually have curated a
11:02
garden that you feel good about. Your life can be that same way. And that's
11:08
So it says, I get along really well with my partner. We have
11:11
been together for five years, but I am having a
11:15
hard time because my parents do not like him and
11:18
their defense. There was some infidelity in my relationship by my partner.
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We were able to work on our relationship and I have
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moved past it. I want to have a conversation with them about how
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So this is a tough thing. People are familiar with this, right? So here's
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what happens. You're dating somebody and then they mess up
11:39
big time. and you call your friends and you vent, and
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they are listening to you, and you're going, I can't believe that person did
11:46
that thing, and they're so bad. And they're going, mm-mm, yes, they are bad. And
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then you get back together in four days, and now it's super duper awkward, because
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they said all this negative stuff, and you done
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told them every bad thing that this mate does. And now
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you're back together, and I guess you have to pretend like that didn't happen. Now,
12:04
here's the thing. It's easier for you to get over it. Because you
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already have that strong feeling which the
12:12
family doesn't have. And you are there for all the good
12:15
things. All they know is this person that you brought to Thanksgiving is
12:19
cheating on you. And so I'll never forgive them. So
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this is the big challenge, which is if
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you choose to divulge stuff like that, keep that in mind, that
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they're not there for the mind-blowing sex. They're only there for what
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you tell them. You go and you say, hey, I want to talk to you about something. I
12:37
love how supportive y'all are of me and I know y'all are very protective
12:41
of me and that's good because everyone does not have that. That being
12:44
said, I'm staying
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with this person. I divulge
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to you that they were unfaithful or they were negative in the following ways.
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I told you that because I trusted you and you haven't betrayed that trust.
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Now there's a challenge. We're back together, and sometimes I feel like you're
13:04
holding a grudge against the person. What do you think about that? I feel like that. They
13:08
might say, oh, what are you talking about? But there's a
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real chance that they'll say, yeah, I do, because I don't forgive.
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And you say, you know what? In the end, I can't control your feelings.
13:19
But I wonder if you can try to
13:24
basically trust me to give this person a chance. So in
13:27
other words, do me a favor. You don't
13:31
have to change your innermost feelings, but obviously don't be rude or
13:34
aggressive, but also don't be passive aggressive, okay? I know
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it's coming from a place of protection of me, but I'm choosing them,
13:41
and we all choose our own mate, and so that's what I hope. There's
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one more thing I'll say. You could say to them, you say, listen, and
13:47
I know this is hard, in the future, like I talk to you about this
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because I trust you, and again, you haven't betrayed that trust, but it
13:54
could be that you say, they could set a boundary and say, hey, From
13:57
now on, don't tell me nothing like this, because I can't let it go as easily as
14:00
you can. Don't poison the well against them if they're not the kind of people that can basically drink
14:04
poison and not die. So what
14:07
she's saying is that she had a man that they were together for
14:11
somewhere between nine and 11 years. He did a lot of
14:14
disrespectful things, so they had, from her perspective, a toxic relationship. And
14:17
at one point, they lived together. Finally, she said, get out, and
14:21
you need therapy, and this is not good. He ends up, he's
14:25
out now, and he's in therapy, and he's saying a lot of
14:28
things. He's saying, baby, I'm cured, or I'm so close to cured. Is that enough?
14:31
Can I come back? And also, he's saying, you're
14:35
not messing with no one else, right? You wasn't just trying to mess with other people, was you? He's
14:39
just trying to placate her, to pacify her, right, that he wouldn't
14:42
be doing this except for as a way to get back together. So
14:46
she's saying basically, should I give up on this or not? Am I beating a dead horse? Meaning,
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am I doing something that it's already over and I'm saying
14:53
like, wake up horse, but the horse is dead or is
14:57
this a good thing? Are we on the path? Let's
15:02
talk about the sunk cost fallacy. I'm sure I've talked about it on here before. But
15:07
the sunk cost fallacy, the analogy
15:11
or the aphorism for it in American life is don't
15:15
throw good money after bad. This is the idea that you
15:20
keep on investing in something that's not working because if
15:24
I stop, then I wasted all my prior investment. That's
15:28
a sunk cost. So if your car
15:32
needs a fix, it needs new brakes and new rotors, you spend $2,000 on
15:36
that. When you're driving it off the lot, suddenly the engine catches
15:39
fire. They want to total it, but you say, no, no, no, no, no.
15:43
Let me just fix it. Because in your mind, you go, if I
15:46
total it, then I wasted all my money on those brakes and rotors. Well,
15:51
that's not how that works. Once the money's gone, it's gone. Letter
15:54
writer, you're factoring in those 11 years, but I don't think you should. I
15:59
don't think the 11 years have anything to do with whether this person is a good mate
16:02
for you today or not. Because if they're good or not good, the
16:06
11 years is already spent and it's not coming back. The question is, is this person
16:09
a suitable mate for you today? Well, let's see. You
16:13
don't seem to trust them when they say, I'm going to therapy. You
16:16
seem to suspect that they're only going to placate you. Even
16:20
if it's weekly. They've gone to 12 therapy sessions. Okay,
16:24
they've been disrespecting you for 11 years from
16:27
according to yourself, right? And when you talk to them, they don't feel
16:30
healed or accountable. You say that they're saying things that make you feel guilty. Like,
16:35
Oh, you know, I'm doing, I'm doing all this and you better not be banging no
16:38
one else as if this was even now they suspect that they
16:41
weren't really doing anything wrong. Really? This might be a trick
16:45
by you to pretend that I was doing something wrong, but really you just want another
16:48
man. And so I'm going to check up on you and police you. Does that sound like somebody who
16:57
I see a lot of relationship podcasts where people just talking
17:00
nonsense. I'm sure you're going to have a lot to say about it, but what's
17:03
your thoughts? I know you're not on social media like that, but
17:07
have you seen a bunch of mics and people talking
17:11
about relationships? What are your thoughts about it? I feel like everybody just be saying stuff
17:15
Well, there's definitely bottomless podcasts about the
17:19
gender wars, right? Questions like, you know, should you make
17:22
your man a plate or should you make your father a plate
17:25
first? Which I understand why people are
17:28
talking about it. What they're trying to deal with is there's a
17:32
perceived traditional way to have relationships,
17:36
right? These are some roles are feminine and some are masculine. Well,
17:40
how do we know what to do? So I understand where it's coming from. At
17:43
the same time, toxicity is what gets clicks.
17:47
And so you can easily eat a diet of pure toxicity if
17:51
you just get all your gender war content
17:56
And you know, you just, you help me understand like why it's so prominent. You're
18:00
right. Back in the day, the way things were, it was so different and
18:03
things have changed drastically. So that's why there's all of
18:06
this dialogue that takes place that feels like, where
18:10
is this coming from? But it is coming from that makes a lot of
18:14
In theory, it was. So we have an idealized view of the
18:17
past in reality. Uh, some of our grandmothers worked.
18:22
Some of our grandfathers were very active dads who knew how to
18:25
cook. We perceive things as being so different. They're
18:29
not as different as we think they are. But
18:32
what is different is the basic push in society that people
18:35
should have self-determination. In other words, there were always
18:39
women who didn't want to wear dresses and bake bread for their man in
18:42
a world where if everyone has choice, it's a little more complicated than
18:49
Thank you for the platform. My boyfriend will self-sabotage and will not go to therapy. I
18:53
have been trying to tell him about himself, but it's not working. How
19:00
When we use the solution-focused method, here's how it works. You're
19:03
trying to find the lowest common denominator. And by that, I
19:06
mean the thing that fits you both. So you're
19:10
skipping two. You need therapy. He won't go. There's some
19:13
block why he won't go. I don't know. First of all, does he agree that there's an issue? What
19:17
issue does he agree that there is? Do you get what I mean? So
19:22
if he says, uh, you say the
19:25
problem is you're depressed. He doesn't agree that he's depressed, but
19:28
he says, I'm not depressed. I simply can't get out of bed when
19:32
I want, but I want to get out of bed, but I struggle to get out of bed. And sometimes
19:36
I think about all my problems and I feel sad, but I'm
19:39
not depressed. Okay, why are we fighting over the word depressed? Sounds
19:43
like we both agree that if there was a way for you to get out
19:46
of bed, you would like that way, wouldn't you? Because he agrees that that's a
19:49
problem. You say, okay, so what are you willing to try? Are
19:54
you willing to try going to
19:57
bed earlier? I mean, I lay in bed, but I can't fall asleep. Okay, are
20:00
you willing to try talking to somebody? No, but okay,
20:04
what are you willing to try? Every time he goes, blah, blah, blah, why are we talking
20:07
about this? You say, oh, We don't have to, but you said you want to be
20:10
able to get out of bed. What I'm really describing
20:14
is the whole process of coaching and therapy,
20:18
but if the person doesn't agree, You don't slap them
20:21
or fight them. We're going to figure out something that you can try, that
20:24
you're willing to try. Let's say they weighed 800 pounds.
20:29
They're one of those people that can barely walk. They run out of breath walking
20:32
to the kitchen. You go, well, you
20:35
need gastric bypass and all types of drugs and surgery. You
20:39
might feel that way. But meanwhile, well, what are you willing to do?
20:42
You say, well, I'm willing to use it. I would eat a dozen
20:46
eggs for breakfast. So I wonder, do you think you could
20:49
do you think you'd be you'd live if you only ate nine? And
20:53
then they eat nine for a week. And then you go, well, goddamn, this
20:56
is great. I mean, I wonder how far you could push it. You think you
20:59
could do six? Only six? I
21:02
know that's a smaller omelet than you're used to, but I wonder, I mean, you've already come
21:06
this far. And what people are doing is building up momentum and
21:09
realizing, oh my God, I have some control. There's nothing I
21:12
can do to clap my hands and not weigh 800 pounds. Let's say
21:16
one thing is if they're struggling at
21:19
work and they're not getting Uh,
21:23
this, they're struggling at work and they got a bad review, a bad, okay.
21:27
That's one thing. How about they got fired cause they just couldn't
21:30
get out of bed and now we're missing the rent. You see how that's different?
21:33
Like it's two different degrees. There comes a degree when you say, well, you
21:37
could say, listen, uh, I know you're going through a
21:40
tough time, but, but you know, I'm, I'm like a human too. And
21:44
so we can progress on this. I'm not going to be able to
21:47
stay. inert with you. I can't just stay
21:51
broken down on the side of the road with you. But I'm
21:54
willing to move forward while we kind of figure out our next
21:57
steps. But there's only so long I'm willing to live
22:04
Hi Celeste, love your podcast. I'm a new listener. I'm struggling with my relationship right
22:07
now. I've grown this jealousy or
22:10
discomfort with my partner watching porn or saving certain
22:15
content on social media. So much so that
22:18
I check their phone and I've never been that person. I've
22:22
told them I felt this way before. They have
22:25
made me feel insecure about the relationship in the past with comments
22:29
made towards me about my appearance or
22:32
about my faults. We've been in a relationship for seven
22:37
years. It feels like the damage done from things that
22:40
have been said has stuck with me. At this point,
22:44
any comments of another woman angers me. This is
22:47
new for me and I don't know where to go from here. I would love to
22:53
Hmm. Well, when I look at this, right, if
22:56
we just talk about what this starts off as if pornography is
23:00
the problem. But as I hear more and more, it doesn't sound like pornography is
23:03
the problem. Me sounds like it might be the catalyst. And I'll tell you what I mean
23:06
by that. So I think of porn the
23:10
way I think of like junk food, which is to say that
23:14
there's really no argument that it is good for you. But
23:18
I expect most people consume a certain amount of
23:21
junk food. Most people do. If you met someone who said, I've never tasted
23:28
Like, you've eaten candy, dog. You just have. And so pornography
23:31
is roughly that same way. And this is backed up. Virtually, particularly, virtually
23:35
all men consume some level of pornography. That's the truth
23:39
of the matter. That being said, it's not necessarily so great for you.
23:42
And it's possible to consume too much of it. But it doesn't sound like that's the
23:45
real issue. As it goes, I'm hearing, they make me feel
23:48
insecure. And I'm thinking, is it because
23:52
they're consuming pornography? with comments that they made toward
23:55
me about my appearance or my faults. Ah,
24:00
so that could happen with or without the porn, couldn't it? That is
24:03
not. That's comments made about appearance or
24:07
fault. We've been around for 70 years, and it feels the damage done from things has
24:10
been said that it stuck with me. So in other words, it's
24:14
one thing to consume pornography silently,
24:18
privately, which is what I think many people do.
24:22
It's another thing to then say, I wish you looked more like
24:25
this woman. Or if you look like her, then I'd
24:28
have a good life. Or when are you going to
24:32
hit the gym? she's better
24:35
than you, well, guess what? That
24:40
is, and repeated comments of that nature, it
24:44
would make a lot of sense to me that your insecurity would rise. Because
24:48
those comments, what could be said about them other than that I would expect
24:51
them to make somebody begin to feel inadequate? When
24:55
you see them say, they make me feel, of course, you and me go
24:58
up. No one can make you feel any way, that's you. But I
25:02
know what they mean. As this goes, this reads like something that's
25:05
happened, been happening. Something I've seen before is
25:10
somebody, if they want change out of the partner, you know, you see
25:13
this too with parents. right, parents in a non-sexual
25:17
way, where when they want something out of the kid, they start comparing them
25:21
to kids that they think are better. Well, Junior, he got
25:25
A's, and he's on the football team. Oh, Junior's mother must be so
25:28
lucky, right, trying to make their own
25:36
Right, and so in the same way, I could imagine saying, oh my God,
25:39
look at the way this woman, she's so curvy, but also very
25:43
fit. Man, I wish I had a woman like that. which
25:47
I would say, uh, take
25:50
the porn out of it. Those comments are simply deleterious
25:54
to a relationship. They
25:58
ruin it over time, make it crumble over time. And
26:01
so, uh, the issue is, to me,
26:06
right, looking at the phone, that is not
26:09
necessarily a great response, but... While
26:14
it's not necessarily so great, and I would stop that because it's not
26:17
at all the problem. And also the problem isn't
26:21
really the porn. The problem is actually this
26:26
person has repeatedly saying things like this to
26:29
you. It seems to me like my comment might be
26:32
to this person, why are you mentioning this to me?
26:37
While you talk to me about this other woman and refuse to
26:40
be gaslit and say some version of, don't
26:44
say nothing like that to me no more. And see where we
26:47
go. I understand not speaking to a partner negatively from
26:51
a man's perspective. What if he's coping with his lack of attraction to her now by watching porn?
26:54
So his comparison is because he doesn't feel comfortable just saying straight up he
26:58
has an issue instead of taking the passive aggressive approach. Very
27:01
many men, it's a part of their monthly routine. But
27:05
this behavior is toxic enough that you got to take a hard stance against
27:09
it. That is not how you impact somebody. We
27:12
talked earlier about a very positive way to influence somebody to
27:15
make positive change. This is the opposite of that, right? If somebody,
27:19
if you're into fitness, and you want your partner to be into
27:22
fitness, you can say, hey, honey, you want to go to the gym? Instead of you
27:26
said, like, if I knew you were going to be Jabba the Hutt, I don't think
27:29
we would have moved in together. Acting like that, even if
27:32
they have gained weight, that is wrong. That's toxic.
27:38
The first writer is asking, how
27:41
do you know if someone isn't right for you? How
27:48
One of the number one ways is you know
27:51
what it is you're trying to accomplish. where it is
27:54
you're trying to be. So for example, if you
27:58
are, if you're intent on getting married and you wish somebody
28:01
who you enjoy, but who expressed that they don't want to get married, then they're
28:05
not right for you in the sense that they're not going towards your goals. But
28:08
conversely, if you do not want to get married and you wish somebody that's always
28:11
pressuring you to get married, That person is not right for you because
28:15
they're not helping you get towards your goals. Conversely, you
28:18
can also be with somebody who agrees like, yes, I
28:21
do want to get married and you want to get married, but you don't enjoy or
28:24
get along with them. In other words, you want to be at the same place, but not
28:27
with the person you're with. So that person is also not right for you. So basically, it's
28:31
a combination between who's in the car and where
28:34
the car is going. Right. You could be going to the right place with
28:38
the wrong person. You could be going to the wrong place with a person
28:41
whose company you enjoy. But someone who's right for you is someone who you're going
28:44
to the right place and you enjoy their company. Sometimes people go, well, I know
28:47
you're the person I want to be with. So all I'm going to do is work on you until
28:51
you agree to do what I want you to do. And at that point, everything will
28:54
be perfect. But that's not really what it's like to be a human being.
28:58
Because if changing your mind is so easy, why don't you just change your mind and not want to get married?
29:01
Oh, you don't want to change, right? But other people should change, but you shouldn't.
29:05
And so oftentimes, people, when they have to stick
29:08
with that analogy, it's the right person in the car, but the person doesn't
29:12
agree on the destination. They just bring up every other week. Hey,
29:15
you want to go to my destination? No, I told you I don't want to do that. Yeah, I hear you.
29:18
I hear you. But it's a good destination. Do you want to go? They just work
29:21
on them again and again and again until maybe the person folds
29:25
and says, OK, I'll go. But have they actually changed
29:29
where they actually have changed what they want? That's a lot less frequent.
29:33
And so it can be hard because it's so hard to find somebody that you're compatible
29:36
with. But rather than trying to work on people, you should accept
29:43
Yeah, I like it. That's good. And, you
29:47
know, I think for the person who wrote this or
29:50
anybody who this may be something you've been thinking about, really
29:54
be clear on what you want. And when I say clear, sometimes the
29:57
things that you think you want is because maybe Culture
30:01
says that's what you do or society says that that's what you do.
30:04
So be clear on what it is you want to do. Write
30:08
it down if you have to, like that's okay to take time to write it down. And
30:13
then if it doesn't work for the person you're with, it doesn't
30:20
What if I don't know what I want? You can't possibly accomplish your
30:24
goal because you don't know what it is. And so that's a particularly
30:28
unfulfilling place to be. Because every day, if you
30:31
don't know what you're trying to achieve, then there's nothing to orient your day.
30:34
Have I made progress or not? Should I keep doing what I'm doing or
30:38
not? Hard to say the answer to that when you don't even know where you're going. So
30:41
the first work is the self work of knowing what you want out of life. At
30:45
that point, once you know what you want out of life, you can then find
30:52
So the next question it says, what is the difference between a healthy and unhealthy
30:57
I think I can break it down with an analogy, which is
31:01
that if people know about like the different types of
31:04
animal relationships, right? So if you know what a parasitic relationship
31:08
is, that's like a leech that lives on, you
31:11
know, an animal, right? So a leech is a parasite. It
31:14
climbs onto the animal and it gets nourishment off the animal and it costs the
31:18
animal something. The animal is worse off for it. So
31:21
the leech drinks your blood and that helps the leech, but the
31:25
person whose blood's getting drunk might get anemic or they're losing
31:29
nutrients. Leeches are bad for you. Ticks are bad for you. Mosquitoes,
31:33
bad for you. That's a parasitic relationship. But there's also
31:36
symbiotic relationships. All right, so a
31:40
symbiotic relationship in the animal kingdom is like, you know, Finding
31:44
Nemo, he's a clownfish. Clownfish live inside sea
31:47
anemones, right? They're animals, but they look like
31:52
flowers, but they sting. But clownfish are immune to
31:56
the stingers. And so clownfish can live in the sea anemone, right?
32:01
And the clownfish can eat the parasites off
32:05
the sea anemone. And the sea anemone has stingers that
32:09
would sting anything that would try to eat the clownfish. So both benefit, right?
32:12
They benefit. Clownfish need sea anemones, and sea anemones benefit
32:16
strongly from clownfish. So in that same way, a healthy relationship is
32:20
where everybody in the relationship benefits, right? If
32:23
it's parasitic, maybe someone benefits, but someone else is getting
32:27
hurt. In a healthy relationship, everybody is better off with each other.
32:31
A very common dynamic is where one person is
32:34
the watering can and one person is the flower. So all the
32:37
watering and nourishing goes in one direction. Right? The
32:41
people that come, oh, that's just how they are. Let me talk to them. Oh, you
32:44
know how they are. You know, you have to, they have to make excuses
32:48
for why they stormed out of a dinner party or why they didn't show up to their
32:51
cousin's christening, whatever it is, because they need special
32:54
handling that only I can provide. So this person ends
32:58
up killing themselves to keep this other person afloat. But
33:01
in actuality, we both should be swimming towards a common life
33:07
All right, I'm going to go to the next question. I was in
33:10
a relationship for four years and we broke up three weeks ago. It
33:14
was a mutual breakup. We just are
33:17
two different people and it wasn't working. I'm 28 and
33:20
trying to figure out how I can get comfortable with
33:24
being single. Uh, the holidays are around the
33:27
corner and I need to figure out how to tell people. I wish
33:34
Hmm. I think that's very self-aware to say, I wish I
33:38
didn't care about people asking, but I realized that I do. I
33:41
think that's real talk. You know what I mean? Because you're not just, you
33:44
know that you want to feel a certain way, but you don't feel that
33:48
way. I think that's great to acknowledge that. That
33:51
being said, when you say comfortable, again, Uh,
33:56
there's something nice about being liberated from a relationship that wasn't working. And
33:59
there's something that, that could be lonely about being someone
34:03
who spent years with a pretty frequent companion. And
34:07
now you don't have that default companion. And I think looking in the
34:10
mirror and saying like, yeah, there's going to be like some loneliness associated with
34:13
that. I think that that's okay. But also. What
34:17
a time to lean on your natural
34:21
supports, right? What a time to make sure that you're leaning
34:25
and talking to your various friends and your
34:29
family and doing things that enrich you.
34:33
Like, I don't mean make money. I mean, like the
34:36
things you enjoy, right? The things that maybe you didn't use to do.
34:40
because the partner didn't like it. And by that, I mean, you know,
34:44
like, let's say you're messing with someone who's lactose intolerant, right?
34:48
And so you used to love pizza, but now you don't eat pizza like that because they're
34:51
lactose intolerant. Well, you're sad to lose them, but at the same time, finally
34:54
I can eat pizza again, or whatever it is, right? You can
34:58
kind of reacquaint yourself with the parts of yourself that you had pruned because
35:03
they weren't convenient in the relationship. So
35:06
those are all the things you can do. And when you're doing that, Uh,
35:11
the, you know, I think part of why sometimes people are embarrassed and look, they think
35:15
like a long relationship breakup is like some kind of failure instead
35:19
of looking at it for what it was, which was something that worked for a while and then stopped working.
35:23
And then you had the courage to terminate it. That's the truth of the
35:26
matter. Other people have relationships too, that
35:29
aren't going to break up instead. They're going to be miserable. But you didn't do that
35:32
because you had courage. And other people never
35:36
dared to get in a relationship because they didn't take
35:39
a chance on love. But you didn't do that. You did take the chance. So
35:43
I think of all the possible outcomes, you've got the best one, someone
35:46
who knows what it's like to be with somebody and also knows what it's like to make a
35:49
move. And I think if you enrich your life and
35:52
take that perspective, you do both those things. When people
35:56
say, oh, where's Larry? You can say, oh, you know, me
35:59
and Larry broke up, actually, knowing that that's not some admit
36:03
of defeat. That's just like a step. In
36:06
the direction of your ultimate happiness. Well,
36:10
sometimes people say like, you know, you know, they
36:14
say some version of like, don't you know, when you die, you just gain the weight back. Okay,
36:18
right, so you could either try and maybe
36:22
you fail, maybe you don't, or you could not try and definitely fail.
36:26
Everything that this writer indicated is that if they were
36:29
to return, I might think that they would return because maybe
36:33
they work something out for themselves or they work it out with their partners. But they've only been broken
36:36
up three weeks, so they could get back together. But everything
36:39
this letter writer wrote made me think that they were the kind of person who
36:47
So I have been on a journey of taking care of myself. I'm
36:51
a trauma survivor and have always ignored signs of stress through work.
36:55
I'm a black woman and I have been at my job for 10 years. I'm always
36:59
getting high praise for my performance and dedication, but the last three months I'm
37:02
feeling used. I have always been the yes person
37:05
at work and in my personal life. And then she wrote, I
37:09
have been working on changing that. How can I change how I
37:13
show up at work? I know I played
37:16
a role with being the point person on many projects, but
37:20
I see how unbalanced the workload is. Did
37:27
I did. So this person, they've
37:31
experienced trauma and they channeled it into like, I'll
37:35
cure it through excellence, particularly professional excellence, right?
37:38
I'll feel good about myself because I will crush it at work. And here's
37:42
how I know I'm crushing it. I'll get a lot of praise and my boss will admire me.
37:48
But of course at work, oftentimes your reward for
37:53
hitting a home, your reward for making 10 is
37:56
to make 10 more. Congratulations, you
38:00
made 10 more. That's what a lot of management looks
38:03
at it as. So the question is, for
38:06
this letter writer, I
38:10
think if I ask them, if this was somebody else, Right?
38:17
Would you tell them, well, just keep your mouth shut and however much they pile on you, just
38:20
keep doing it. Or would you say, you
38:24
know what? You got to advocate for yourself. And if let's say they work there too, they say, I'd
38:28
advocate for you. Would you advocate for, let's say you had an employee, letter
38:32
writer. And so someone works for you and they're crushing it like this.
38:36
They don't get, they haven't gotten enough raises. They do more work than everybody
38:39
else, but, but don't get as much pay, whatever it is. Would you advocate
38:43
for them? Would you go to the big boss and say, hey, you know, John
38:46
Johnson's really doing a good job, and John Johnson really deserves more? I
38:50
think you would. So now let's, here's the only difference. Can
38:54
you do that for yourself? Can you treat someone else
38:57
as well as you treat yourself, trauma survivor? That's the question you
39:00
have to ask. Are you willing to advocate for yourself the way you'd
39:04
advocate for this other person who is merited, this hypothetical person
39:07
who is so merited? I
39:11
think that there's an
39:14
aspect of self doubt for a lot of people that,
39:18
uh, shows up only when they're looking at themselves. So,
39:22
uh, when you, it's called the spotlight effect. So
39:25
when you go to the prom, you're so worried because you really wanted your mom
39:29
to buy you that $10,000 dress, but she could only
39:32
get you the $200 dress. I'm going to be so embarrassed because I
39:35
didn't get the dress I wanted. So you spend the whole night thinking about your dress. And
39:39
then you see other people, oh, they look so beautiful. But many of them have the same feeling. They
39:43
have insecurity about their own dress, and they're looking at you saying, oh, they look so beautiful. And
39:47
so then at work, if it's somebody else,
39:50
you say, overall, I'm so glad to have them. They're so great. But if it's yourself,
39:53
you say, oh, am I going to be exposed as a fraud? Will I
39:56
be exposed? Well, if I push back where they criticize me, I say, hey, you know, I
40:00
would really, I think I've done a lot, and I should get a raise. I already have
40:03
two extra projects. I don't think I can take a third one. And you're worried someone will say, you?
40:07
As inadequate as you are? You think
40:11
you deserve more? You're lucky to be here. The fear
40:15
that someone will say that to you is so strong that people
40:20
have aversion to advocate for themselves. The
40:23
solution is, again, that
40:28
trick that we're using when we say, imagine it was somebody else, we're saying, look
40:31
at you the way you would look at you if you weren't you. And
40:36
when we do that, people get to look and they say, you know
40:40
what? I do admire people that behave like
40:43
me, even though when I behave like me, I worry that it's not enough. You're
40:47
whooping ass at this job and you're delivering. I'm
40:51
not promising that they recognize you, but
40:55
you advocate for yourself and then it'll be what it'll be. If they
40:58
don't see it, well, because I know I got the goods, I'll go somewhere else. This
41:02
is true in dating. This is true in work. Don't get me
41:05
wrong. It's not just I'm good no matter what. Because some
41:08
people, we all know somebody who basically, somehow
41:12
they can't imagine that they're anything but perfect. That's how they defend their
41:15
ego. This is not that. This is, did
41:20
I do the pre-work? I did. Did I show up
41:23
on time? I did. Did I do what they asked? I did, and
41:26
I did more. So does that mean I did a good job? Yes, that
41:29
is what it means. So then if someone says, yes, but anyone
41:33
could have done that, OK, then I guess get anyone to do it. And I will work somewhere
41:36
where people appreciate this contribution. In game
41:40
theory, there's something called a positive
41:44
sum game. That's where both people benefit more
41:48
than either would otherwise. If you have
41:52
eggs but no flour, and I have flour but no eggs,
41:56
we can share and together we both get cake, a thing that neither of us
41:59
could have had alone. It's better than just I got
42:03
a bunch of eggs and I got a bunch of flour. That's a positive sum.
42:06
In this case, you have a work, work
42:10
performance, you do your job and you do it well, and they have some
42:14
version of money and accolades and perks and benefits that they can bust. All
42:18
you want is a win-win. Currently, when you say you feel used, what
42:21
you're saying is, I worry that I'm in a win-lose situation where I
42:24
do things for them and they win and I lose. You want to move it
42:28
to a win-win. Someone called me today. And
42:33
they said, listen, I got this offer. I have this job. I like my job.
42:36
They called up and said, hey, we got kind of an emergency. We're hiring
42:40
somebody to run this whole other department. But they bailed. Could
42:44
you run both departments on an interim basis? OK.
42:48
Now, he said, well, I said, first thing I asked, well,
42:51
how do you feel? And he was like, well, I would like to do it, so forth,
42:54
so on. But of course, he's thinking, are they going to cut the check? I think I could do
42:58
it. I think I got the skills that are going to cut the check. So I said, tell him,
43:01
say, hey, listen, I'm flattered. This sounds like a great thing.
43:04
And I do think I like a challenge, and I think I could do this. So
43:10
basically, what's the compensation? Because it is going to
43:13
be a disruption. And when I do things, I don't do them halfway. So
43:17
I'm not going to do it on the side. This is going to consume a part of my life. And
43:21
then they say, well, we were going to give you an extra $15 a
43:25
month. No. If
43:28
they say, we were going to pay this other person a whole salary, we'll
43:32
give you half of that salary, two thirds of that salary. That's
43:37
a win-win to me. This person, this
43:40
letter writer sometimes has buyer's remorse. Afterwards, they
43:44
agree to do it and then afterwards they feel like this wasn't worth it. When
43:47
I take on a client, we talk about I
43:50
get paid money to do my work. But whatever I agree to,
43:54
the main thing that's important to me is later on I won't feel like I shouldn't have
43:58
taken this. Do you get what I mean? So
44:01
I work for more, I work for less. I do big, huge projects
44:04
with multinational corporations. I do little small things with individuals
44:08
or nonprofits. But all that I'm screening for beforehand is
44:18
Hey y'all, I really hope you enjoyed that episode. I
44:22
am grateful that I had the opportunity to
44:26
kind of do this life with Jeff. I am grateful for
44:30
his passion. I'm grateful for his wisdom. I am so grateful
44:33
for, for everything and, um, uh, recording
44:38
this. So, you know, I, had Sydney
44:42
go through the episodes and pull
44:45
out things to put together because I just couldn't do it.
44:49
And it was so hard hearing his voice and
44:53
knowing he's not here even now that I'm recording this.
44:57
And it just sucks because I'm just like, I shouldn't
45:00
be recording this a tribute to Jeff while he's
45:03
not here. But I am. But luckily for
45:07
me, I've always told him, if you
45:10
listen to any of our episodes, I always tell him how grateful I am to
45:13
him. He would thank me, I would thank him. That's
45:17
one thing about me is that the people that are in my life,
45:20
they know how I feel about them. I'm always reminding them
45:24
how grateful I am to them. So
45:27
yeah, so I'm grateful. I, you know, at the end of each episode,
45:31
I would love for Jeff to close us out, right?
45:35
So in true fashion, right, I want to keep that same
45:38
kind of thing of having him close us out.
45:43
God, this really sucks so bad. every
45:47
time I have to get ready to do something for this episode it's
45:51
like oh yeah that's right he's not here it's so crazy like
45:55
you could just be minding your business and then like you're like
45:58
hit with this and there's so many ways that I
46:02
would quote him or I would be like oh yeah Jeff said like literally
46:06
before he passed away I was talking to my friend and
46:11
telling her about something that he said and found
46:15
out like five minutes later that he wasn't here. So his
46:20
name was in my mouth all the time. I'm sure
46:23
he would make a joke about that because he joked about everything. So
46:28
thank you all so much for listening. Now, let's let Jeff close this out.
46:32
You know, after he passed away, I was
46:36
listening to some of our episodes and this stuck out
46:39
for me and I just pinned it to my Instagram. But.
46:44
Jeff, thank you so much for
46:47
using your wisdom. And I
46:51
know your purpose was to help people and
46:54
get them from being unstuck because you did that so naturally and
46:58
so well. And I just want to say
47:02
thank you. And we'll let him end this episode.
47:12
Become the person that you aspire to be from where you
47:15
are, the person that you are. And it's
47:18
hard work, but I don't know how anyone
47:22
doesn't go through life at least working out. The alternative to me is way harder, which
47:25
is being stuck on something and never going towards that
47:29
ideal you. You'll be happiest when you're living your