Latest / Aired Out / Kevin Ellis - Conflict of Interest

Transcript

Kevin Ellis - Conflict of Interest · Aired Out

0:57
Speaker 1: All right, shop in the morning. Here we go, Happy Tuesday.
1:00
Speaker 1: Fly on the Wall Productions bringing you the aired Out
1:03
Speaker 1: podcast live on Facebook, live on YouTube, a, streamed everywhere
1:09
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and we're on the web at
1:11
Speaker 1: airedoutvt dot com. It is Tuesday, May twenty six. Lauren
1:17
Speaker 1: Hill on the birthday list today at fifty one. Lenny Kravitz,
1:21
Speaker 1: God bless him, one of my favorites. Sixty two years
1:25
Speaker 1: old today. Bobcat Goldthwaite sixty four. Hank Williams Junior seventy seven.
1:32
Speaker 1: Look at these heavy hitters. Stevie Nicks seventy eight years old.
1:37
Speaker 1: Brent Musburger is eighty seven. S Wow, feeling old either
1:44
Speaker 1: side of fifty this morning with brilliant blue skies and sunshine.
1:49
Speaker 1: Keep your optical expressions sunglasses close by today You're gonna
1:55
Speaker 1: need them. Lower eighties later tonight, partly cloudy. Sixty Wednesday Tomorrow,
2:00
Speaker 1: sun and clouds both in the mix. Seventy eight Thursday,
2:05
Speaker 1: partly cloudy. That's the beginning of a cool front, which
2:11
Speaker 1: some of you may not like. Sixty three degrees for
2:13
Speaker 1: a daytime high on Thursday, and that cool front is
2:17
Speaker 1: going to stay with us. Friday through the weekend. Saturday
2:20
Speaker 1: is high only in the mid fifties with rain, And
2:22
Speaker 1: as my wife said last night, does it have to
2:25
Speaker 1: be on a Saturday when it's cold and rainy. We
2:28
Speaker 1: have too much stuff to do. We don't have time
2:31
Speaker 1: for this weather forecast. This guy right next to me
2:35
Speaker 1: is one of the most can I say, one of
2:39
Speaker 1: the most famous dudes in Vermont ever, Kevin Ellis. Man,
2:44
Speaker 1: it is an absolute pleasure. J D. How are you?
2:47
Speaker 1: I met you at the den you were doing you
2:49
Speaker 1: were there for a fundraiser for Rusty Deweyz that he
2:53
Speaker 1: was doing. You and I played tennis for back and
2:57
Speaker 1: forth for a long time after that. We're gonna go
3:00
Speaker 1: John call me, I'll call you, You call me. And
3:02
Speaker 1: this went on for months. We're busy people, we are.
3:06
Speaker 1: You're one of the busiest guys that I know. Man,
3:09
Speaker 1: How the heck are you? I'm well, I'm well, what
3:11
Speaker 1: a day? And wow? Brett Musburger, Yeah, eighty seven. How
3:16
Speaker 1: are you feeling? It's Stevie Nick's seventy eight years old today.
3:19
Speaker 1: Is this pain? I heard her in the car the
3:22
Speaker 1: other day. Oh my god, oh yeah, yeah.
3:24
Speaker 2: My childhood the Fleetwood Mac rumors album Oh my god, no,
3:29
Speaker 2: do you have it on vinyl? Don't know, Yes, I
3:30
Speaker 2: don't know if it's the best selling album of all
3:32
Speaker 2: time next to Carol King's Tapestry. However, Stevie Nick's rumors, Yeah,
3:38
Speaker 2: don't stop thinking about tomorrow.
3:39
Speaker 1: I hear you. You have been involved, Kevin in countless
3:45
Speaker 1: for mot political and social issues over this span of
3:49
Speaker 1: several decades. I heard the sigh, that's a long time, buddy,
3:55
Speaker 1: that's a long long time. But you part of I
3:59
Speaker 1: think who Kevin Ellis is is someone who has attempted
4:05
Speaker 1: to still attempts to, and in many regard, has been
4:09
Speaker 1: very successful at bridging the gap between the far left
4:16
Speaker 1: the far right. Is that fair to say?
4:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is not I don't think my goal
4:24
Speaker 2: in life, but I hope that there's been a little bridging.
4:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. I tried, and I try to do it with
4:32
Speaker 1: a little sense of humor. I've listened to you on
4:35
Speaker 1: WDEV for a long time, and at least that's my takeaway.
4:39
Speaker 1: You're you're common sense kind of a guy. Sometimes, I
4:44
Speaker 1: would say most of the time, you understand what's going on.
4:48
Speaker 2: Well, you're forcing me to come to grips with my age.
4:52
Speaker 2: You know, I've been at this a long time either.
4:56
Speaker 1: As a newspaper reporter, yeah.
4:58
Speaker 2: A lobbyist, a PR guy, radio guy, a podcast guy,
5:03
Speaker 2: a writer, so, and a community.
5:07
Speaker 1: I serve on boards.
5:08
Speaker 2: So how many boards, Well, none at the well, one
5:13
Speaker 2: at the moment, yes, but I did a long stint
5:16
Speaker 2: as you know, downstreet Housing and community development, next door
5:20
Speaker 2: board chair and yeah it's right boardchair, and and VT
5:24
Speaker 2: digger as well. Yeah, and so yeah, you know, there's
5:27
Speaker 2: a lot of there's a lot of opinions out there,
5:30
Speaker 2: and banging on Trump all day doesn't work and it's boring,
5:37
Speaker 2: you know. So I don't think people want to hear
5:39
Speaker 2: that anymore. So you got to find other ways to
5:42
Speaker 2: engage people.
5:42
Speaker 1: I think penetrate. Yeah, you know it's like this morning,
5:47
Speaker 1: like any of the day, wake up, turn the phone
5:49
Speaker 1: on and there's a post from someone who is just
5:53
Speaker 1: starting out their day kind of shitty, all worked up
5:57
Speaker 1: about Mecca and just like just people are almost wired
6:02
Speaker 1: to be angry when it's not.
6:04
Speaker 2: Just they inject that cortisol first thing in the morning
6:08
Speaker 2: to their brain. Yeah, and they are depressed all day.
6:11
Speaker 1: There's other ways to go about it to think about it, man,
6:14
Speaker 1: And it's it's not just in our little state of Vermont,
6:19
Speaker 1: but it's it's the country.
6:21
Speaker 2: Man.
6:21
Speaker 1: It's like everybody's so divided. It just seems like and
6:26
Speaker 1: ticked off. Yeah, and everyone's got an opinion, which is
6:30
Speaker 1: can be a good thing, but still, man, I mean
6:33
Speaker 1: just this morning the news on the war and what's
6:35
Speaker 1: going on. My god. Man. Yeah, yeah, it's it's real.
6:39
Speaker 2: I mean everyone's got an opinion, and I think that's
6:42
Speaker 2: always been the case. I just think it's that social
6:46
Speaker 2: media algorithms have amplified everybody and given them the power
6:51
Speaker 2: to state their opinion all day long.
6:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a resume you have. We're going to talk
6:57
Speaker 1: about your podcast here, but Burlington Free Press, you were
7:01
Speaker 1: a reporter there. How was that?
7:04
Speaker 2: That was eighty nine to ninety three something like that
7:09
Speaker 2: when we first got to Vermont from Washington, d C.
7:13
Speaker 2: It was a great three and a half years. But
7:18
Speaker 2: I mean there's a long story behind that. It sounds cool, yeah,
7:22
Speaker 2: but let's see I was making what was I making?
7:25
Speaker 2: Thirty thirty two grand a year, three kids to support,
7:31
Speaker 2: and my wife. We bought a little house in Underhill.
7:35
Speaker 2: We came from DC, and I was desperate for a job.
7:38
Speaker 2: I mean, we were moving to Vermont, come hell or
7:40
Speaker 2: high water, back in eighty nine, and I had no job,
7:44
Speaker 2: and they had a job opening for an environmental reporter.
7:48
Speaker 2: I had covered politics in DC. I was covering presidential
7:51
Speaker 2: campaigns and stuff. But we decided to move to Vermont
7:55
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, okay, so there's this opening. And
7:59
Speaker 2: I went and applied and miserably failed the writing test.
8:03
Speaker 2: They gave you a writing test back then for speed
8:06
Speaker 2: or action for actually doing a story. The editor said,
8:10
Speaker 2: you know, go go call up so and so at
8:12
Speaker 2: the Lake Champlain Committee and do a story about X.
8:16
Speaker 1: Well. I couldn't get.
8:17
Speaker 2: Him on the phone, and I had nothing, and I
8:21
Speaker 2: begged him for the job. His name's Jim Welch. He's
8:23
Speaker 2: still there, he's in Burlington, and he's a dear friend.
8:27
Speaker 2: And he gave me the job, and thank God for him.
8:30
Speaker 1: What was the most outrageous story that you covered for
8:34
Speaker 1: the Burlington Free Press, one that you would have offered
8:39
Speaker 1: up a cash bribe to not cover. Well, there was.
8:48
Speaker 2: You know, it's also quaint now, but back in the day,
8:52
Speaker 2: UVM was testing from Monsanto, the chemical that injected into
9:00
Speaker 2: house to help them give more milk, and they didn't
9:03
Speaker 2: want to tell the public where the milk from that
9:08
Speaker 2: you know, the environmentalist said, there, it's tainted milk. Where
9:12
Speaker 2: was that milk going? And UVM wouldn't say. So we
9:18
Speaker 2: hired a kid to track the milk truck that left
9:25
Speaker 2: the UVM dairy farm.
9:27
Speaker 1: You're not you serious?
9:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we tracked it to a cheese plant.
9:31
Speaker 1: I can't remember where. I think it was down in
9:33
Speaker 1: Addison County. Of course you can't remember where. So that
9:39
Speaker 1: was some slew thing.
9:41
Speaker 2: I'll I get others. But I was once. I was
9:44
Speaker 2: once on the phone screaming at Joe Jimmeli, who was
9:47
Speaker 2: Pat Lahy's press secretary. He was screaming at me, and
9:50
Speaker 2: I was screaming at him, and I don't know, it's
9:53
Speaker 2: it just felt very like the front page I.
9:59
Speaker 1: I see here online. Kevin ellis widely recognized in Vermont
10:05
Speaker 1: political circles for his analysis of state government, media, demographic change,
10:10
Speaker 1: oral culture, Vermont's political evolution. You've been associated with Vermont
10:16
Speaker 1: public media and political communication networks over the span of
10:20
Speaker 1: at least two decades. Here, that's really something else, man,
10:25
Speaker 1: You've really got a grasp on this state.
10:30
Speaker 2: Well, I was raised by liberal arts parents who valued
10:35
Speaker 2: a broad understanding of the world. That's the only way
10:40
Speaker 2: I can explain it, and a lack of depth that
10:43
Speaker 2: any one subject.
10:46
Speaker 1: I Every day here on aired out I post up
10:50
Speaker 1: a question of the day. Sometimes there are so many
10:53
Speaker 1: questions I do too in a day, which I really shouldn't.
10:56
Speaker 1: But this mornings is what's your unpopular opinion? Do you
11:04
Speaker 1: have one? Yeah?
11:06
Speaker 2: I do many. Let's see, here's the one that will
11:15
Speaker 2: get me in. What's the one that will get me
11:17
Speaker 2: in the biggest trouble with my liberal friends?
11:20
Speaker 1: Right? I think, how about this one?
11:25
Speaker 2: I think unions at really small places VT Digger, for example,
11:35
Speaker 2: are a mistake. They don't work very well because the
11:41
Speaker 2: incentives are not aligned for the union to behave properly
11:48
Speaker 2: and the employees to behave properly and management to behave properly.
11:52
Speaker 1: So, you know, and so I think it's a mistake.
11:55
Speaker 1: Are they good at auto plants? Yeah?
11:58
Speaker 2: Do they need to be Amazon on workers need to
12:00
Speaker 2: be protected absolutely? Teachers yeah, But a little twelve person
12:06
Speaker 2: nonprofits startup, you know, who's just trying to get their
12:09
Speaker 2: legs under them. I think a union is a mistake.
12:13
Speaker 2: That's one unpopular one. Wow, which I stated in seven days,
12:18
Speaker 2: and I got all sorts of hate mail you did.
12:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of the hate mail, I mean, listen, we're
12:25
Speaker 1: both public figures, were we both would probably agree that
12:32
Speaker 1: it's nice to be liked. Yeah. Have you been misunderstood?
12:41
Speaker 1: God knows, I have been several times or judged the
12:46
Speaker 1: wrong way. And was it something where your character was
12:53
Speaker 1: under attack and you took it to heart? You took
12:56
Speaker 1: it personally, you couldn't shake it.
13:00
Speaker 2: I'm usually over it in a day. Got to go
13:03
Speaker 2: out in the garden and and hoe vegetables or we
13:08
Speaker 2: you know, intensely, and then I'm over it.
13:10
Speaker 1: But I do take it personally. Yes, it's during the
13:12
Speaker 1: winter when you're not gardening. What are you doing then?
13:17
Speaker 2: Shoveling, shoveling, working out, trying not to be here in
13:22
Speaker 2: the winter as best I can, which is you know
13:26
Speaker 2: a task.
13:27
Speaker 1: Yeah. Winters are tough. Winters are tough. This was a
13:30
Speaker 1: tough one. You did a ton of advocacy work for
13:39
Speaker 1: marriage equality. Yeah, hot, that go great? Did it? Oh?
13:46
Speaker 2: Best thing I've ever done, best thing I've ever done,
13:49
Speaker 2: really by far. Well, kids, marriage married forty years but
13:54
Speaker 2: four children. But but professionally absolutely. We my lobbying firm,
14:01
Speaker 2: which was back then it was called Kimball, Sherman, Ellis.
14:06
Speaker 1: Meredith crandall's given you a big hello this morning. By
14:08
Speaker 1: the way, Oh my gosh, wow.
14:11
Speaker 2: You know we the Vermont Supreme Court ruled in oh,
14:15
Speaker 2: I'm going to get this wrong ninety something, that that
14:20
Speaker 2: gays and lesbians should be able to get married and
14:22
Speaker 2: in the environment Ron Constitution was being violated by town
14:26
Speaker 2: clerks telling him they couldn't get married. And I one
14:30
Speaker 2: of the few quick thoughts that I ever had in
14:33
Speaker 2: my life, was, oh, this is going to be an
14:36
Speaker 2: issue in the legislature. You know, in Boston, in Massachusetts,
14:40
Speaker 2: the court just ordered marriage. They said, gays lesbian's married.
14:43
Speaker 2: You done done in a day. Our Supreme Court kicked
14:48
Speaker 2: it to the legislature. People forget this and said the
14:51
Speaker 2: legislature has to fix this. They punted because they didn't
14:56
Speaker 2: want to seem overly controlling.
15:00
Speaker 1: So I called up.
15:02
Speaker 2: Uh Beth Robinson, who's now a federal judge, and she
15:09
Speaker 2: was the activist who had filed the lawsuit, and I said,
15:13
Speaker 2: you're about to go from the courts a very clear
15:19
Speaker 2: certain you know, you get your brief in by this date.
15:22
Speaker 2: You argue, court makes a decision. You're about to go
15:25
Speaker 2: into a high school cafeteria, and it's called the Vermont Legislature,
15:30
Speaker 2: and it is a crazy town thing, and this is
15:34
Speaker 2: going to take.
15:34
Speaker 1: A long time. And I want to we want to
15:37
Speaker 1: work for you. Some Some might say elementary.
15:40
Speaker 2: School, some might SAYFETERI phill Scott might say elementary school.
15:45
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly. Wow.
15:48
Speaker 2: So and she said, she said, I'm on the other
15:51
Speaker 2: line with CNN.
15:52
Speaker 1: Can I call you back?
15:53
Speaker 2: And we had breakfast the next day and we went
15:55
Speaker 2: to work for the Vermont Freedom to Marry H organization
16:00
Speaker 2: in many iterations over the next at least ten years.
16:04
Speaker 1: Do we still have work to do with regard to this?
16:08
Speaker 1: I don't think we have work to do. I'm out.
16:12
Speaker 2: This is not my domain of expertise anymore. I think
16:16
Speaker 2: we've got work to do, not so much in the
16:18
Speaker 2: legislature with the laws, but boy, do we have a
16:21
Speaker 2: lot of work to do rebuilding the democracy and our institutions,
16:30
Speaker 2: because nobody trusts that our institutions.
16:33
Speaker 1: Work very well anymore.
16:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, both sides, both sides. Democratic Party's got a lot
16:40
Speaker 2: to answer for, and I'm not shy about talking about it.
16:45
Speaker 1: Is Vermont in your opinion? Have things become to partisan?
16:55
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I don't I think partisan.
16:58
Speaker 2: You mean in Vermont? Yes, No, I think a little partisans.
17:02
Speaker 2: The left is too far left, the right is too
17:04
Speaker 2: far right.
17:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll work it out. Not enough fence sitters.
17:14
Speaker 2: Look, I think we you go through cycles, and I
17:19
Speaker 2: think it's an easy it's a little bit of a crutch.
17:21
Speaker 2: I think it's easy to say the left is too left.
17:24
Speaker 2: I don't think the Speaker of the House, Joe Kowinsky,
17:27
Speaker 2: is a left wing socialist lunatic. I think she's a
17:30
Speaker 2: fairly moderate.
17:32
Speaker 1: Uh.
17:33
Speaker 2: You know, she's from Burlington, which means she lives close
17:35
Speaker 2: to Vermont.
17:36
Speaker 1: But but yes, but.
17:38
Speaker 2: I know her pretty well. She's a she's a pretty
17:41
Speaker 2: moderate person.
17:42
Speaker 1: And so I know and.
17:45
Speaker 2: Russ Ingles, you know, the right wing senator from from
17:49
Speaker 2: where is he from the Kingdom? You know we need
17:53
Speaker 2: russ Ingles, we need we need.
17:55
Speaker 1: I'm thinking trying to think of a lefty. I mean,
17:57
Speaker 1: I don't know.
17:58
Speaker 2: My representative Ella Chape in East Montpillier. She's fantastic. I
18:04
Speaker 2: mean she works hard. She answers every email. I think
18:07
Speaker 2: a little partisanship's good. I think it's healthy. We need
18:09
Speaker 2: to yell at each other every once in a while.
18:11
Speaker 2: Jefferson and Adams hated each other.
18:15
Speaker 1: You need a little bit of.
18:16
Speaker 2: That middle ground. Do we need more of it? I
18:21
Speaker 2: think we've got it. Senator Andy Perchlick my senator. He's
18:25
Speaker 2: the chair of the Appropriations Committee in the Senate and Cummings.
18:30
Speaker 2: And Cummings is no socialist, let me tell you. She's
18:32
Speaker 2: a pretty conservative Democrat in my mind. So I think
18:38
Speaker 2: that moderate exists, and I think, you know, everybody gets
18:42
Speaker 2: all worked up again. We go back to social media
18:45
Speaker 2: and our tribalism and how partisan we are. Social media
18:51
Speaker 2: is less so in Vermont because we're just less taken.
18:56
Speaker 1: Over by urban values and mores know. So therefore be patient, everybody.
19:04
Speaker 2: The governor's going to work out a deal with legislature
19:07
Speaker 2: on school funding, and you know, you may not end
19:09
Speaker 2: property taxes.
19:10
Speaker 1: But look at how we get caught up in our
19:12
Speaker 1: echo chambers. All right, eight times we're products of our
19:15
Speaker 1: own algorithms. On social media, we are we are everything,
19:20
Speaker 1: and how we're shopping, how we're thinking. Yeah, everything is echoed.
19:24
Speaker 2: But the legislature's job is to take that into account,
19:28
Speaker 2: run it through a little filter, and come up with
19:31
Speaker 2: the best decision they can. And I think by and
19:33
Speaker 2: large they do that, and they will they will work
19:37
Speaker 2: out make a deal with the governor on school funding
19:39
Speaker 2: and property taxes and the budget and all that stuff.
19:43
Speaker 2: Will it be a little painful along the way, Yeah,
19:45
Speaker 2: but you know politics, Come on, yeah, it's been this
19:48
Speaker 2: way since eighteen oh one.
19:50
Speaker 1: What do you think the and I know this is
19:53
Speaker 1: broad strokes here, but what do you think is are
19:55
Speaker 1: the top three biggest can concerns that Vermont should have
20:02
Speaker 1: at the forefront? Housing, drugs, education, where you land in here?
20:09
Speaker 1: My top issue is this.
20:12
Speaker 2: The the institutions of my generation, the eighties and nineties
20:17
Speaker 2: that we put in place in Vermont to serve vermontors.
20:20
Speaker 1: No longer work.
20:23
Speaker 2: They no longer work and they have to be redesigned.
20:27
Speaker 2: And the problem is no one is redesigning them from
20:32
Speaker 2: the top and the bottom. Why because it's really hard.
20:37
Speaker 1: It's really hard. You know.
20:38
Speaker 2: The governor he's got to I mean, every day he's
20:41
Speaker 2: got a list of twenty five things right, and the
20:44
Speaker 2: top thing on that list is not redesigning the way.
20:51
Speaker 1: Road paving contracts are done, or the way.
20:56
Speaker 2: Somebody signs up for food stamps, which is a massively
21:00
Speaker 2: complicated technological computer operation.
21:05
Speaker 1: This stuff is really hard. Government's really hard.
21:08
Speaker 2: And it's it's complicated. So top three issues housing, Definitely housing.
21:14
Speaker 1: You said that number one. Housing.
21:17
Speaker 2: Nobody has the place to live. The homeless situation in Montpelier,
21:23
Speaker 2: Burlington and elsewhere is something that barry barry, that everybody
21:29
Speaker 2: is talking about and again, really hard to do something
21:33
Speaker 2: about it unless you have a massive commitment from the
21:37
Speaker 2: top to deal with it. And third issue, the education,
21:43
Speaker 2: property tax thing. It's people can't afford to live here,
21:47
Speaker 2: you know. And because we have a split in the country.
21:52
Speaker 2: The wealthier doing really well. We have never created so
21:56
Speaker 2: much wealth in the history of the world. Problem is
22:00
Speaker 2: few people are sharing it. Are the unwealthy? Yeah, do
22:02
Speaker 2: them very well? Yeah, you know, the unwealthy are not
22:06
Speaker 2: doing well. I mean, you know, upper middle class people
22:10
Speaker 2: are doing well. But you know, if you're struggling, if
22:14
Speaker 2: you've got a handicap, if you've got if you've a
22:17
Speaker 2: bad shaken life and you've got that spiral and your
22:21
Speaker 2: car breaks down, it's tough out there.
22:23
Speaker 1: But we also hear Vermont is and I know you've
22:26
Speaker 1: heard this. I hear it all the time. Vermont's to
22:29
Speaker 1: go to state if you want a free handout, if
22:32
Speaker 1: you want help. Yeah, and people are coming up here
22:38
Speaker 1: for that. I don't buy it.
22:40
Speaker 2: You don't, just like I don't buy that. If you
22:43
Speaker 2: text the wealthy, they'll all move to Florida. I don't
22:46
Speaker 2: buy that either.
22:48
Speaker 1: And you know what, you want to go live in Alabama.
22:52
Speaker 2: Knock yourself out. I'm not going there. I'm here for
22:55
Speaker 2: a reason. What is that reason? I love to hear this,
22:58
Speaker 2: by the way, Yeah, what is that? I came here
23:01
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine for a better life and that.
23:05
Speaker 1: By God, and I got it input and I got it.
23:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it here, and it clean air, clean water.
23:14
Speaker 1: Honest politics.
23:16
Speaker 2: Oh maybe that'll spur some anti Act one one people
23:20
Speaker 2: to get mad at me. Honest politics, Small communities where
23:26
Speaker 2: you know your neighbor. I don't want to live any
23:29
Speaker 2: other way. You want me to go to Galveston, Texas
23:32
Speaker 2: so that I can have lower property taxes.
23:35
Speaker 1: No, I'm not doing it.
23:36
Speaker 2: Cheaper cigarettes too, yeah, I mean and gas, Yeah, I
23:42
Speaker 2: hear Oh, here's a controversial one. Yeah, the price of
23:45
Speaker 2: gas is not high enough. Boy, we've got to get
23:50
Speaker 2: off gas.
23:52
Speaker 1: We got to stop.
23:54
Speaker 2: Everyone's got to be driving an electric car, an electric truck.
23:59
Speaker 1: Uh.
24:00
Speaker 2: I'll tell you when my contractor friends, when they get
24:03
Speaker 2: a load of an electric truck, of that torque that's
24:04
Speaker 2: in that battery, they love it.
24:07
Speaker 1: I have a friend who competes in motocross. Yeah, it's
24:13
Speaker 1: kind of electric dirt bike. Oh the tork unbelievable, is ridiculous.
24:20
Speaker 1: We could do a whole show about that. But man,
24:22
Speaker 1: it's tell me about conflict of interest. This is You've
24:27
Speaker 1: been podcasting for a long time, been on w d
24:31
Speaker 1: EV for a very long time. Conflict of interest was
24:34
Speaker 1: the name of your show on wd EV, and you've
24:38
Speaker 1: been you've been producing this, you've been hosting this audio
24:42
Speaker 1: podcast for quite a while here, and now you had
24:47
Speaker 1: an awakening of sorts. I don't want to speak for you,
24:50
Speaker 1: but during the winter where you were like, what am
24:53
Speaker 1: I doing? I got to change this up right, and
24:56
Speaker 1: you said to your wife what.
24:59
Speaker 2: I said, I'm sick of staring into a screen and
25:03
Speaker 2: doing these podcasts on basically a zoom call with.
25:06
Speaker 1: Famous people all over the country.
25:09
Speaker 2: I said, I got to get out of the house
25:11
Speaker 2: and get in community. It's why I moved here in
25:13
Speaker 2: the first place, and it's why we're not leaving. So
25:18
Speaker 2: I started a live audience version of my Conflict of
25:24
Speaker 2: Interest podcast with guests like this, with a live audience,
25:29
Speaker 2: and we rented out the Montpellier Performing Arts Hub at
25:33
Speaker 2: the old Vermont College of Fine Arts up there in
25:35
Speaker 2: the old library. And I called up Ben Cohen of
25:40
Speaker 2: the ice Cream Legend, and I said, would you be
25:42
Speaker 2: my first guest?
25:43
Speaker 1: He said sure, so he came over.
25:45
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the advantages of living here for
25:48
Speaker 2: so long in politics and media is I know everybody
25:52
Speaker 2: in politics and media, so you can just call him
25:54
Speaker 2: up on the phone and say, hey, would you be
25:56
Speaker 2: my guest?
25:58
Speaker 1: And so we.
25:59
Speaker 2: Launched this live audience podcast the last Thursday of every month.
26:05
Speaker 1: We charged ten bucks.
26:07
Speaker 2: I was gonna make it free, but you know, you
26:10
Speaker 2: make people pay and they gives a little skin in
26:13
Speaker 2: the game value.
26:14
Speaker 1: It's serious, it's serious.
26:16
Speaker 2: And so we've been doing it now for two episodes.
26:20
Speaker 2: My second guest was Erica Heilman of Rumblestrip Vermont. We
26:24
Speaker 2: packed the place. She knocked it out of the park.
26:27
Speaker 2: I mean, she is funny, brilliant. It was fantastic. And
26:32
Speaker 2: so third episode is going to be the two Democratic
26:37
Speaker 2: candidates for governor. Oh, June twenty fifth, Okay, get your
26:42
Speaker 2: tickets now, month away, month away, and then I'm keeping
26:47
Speaker 2: I always keep a slot open for the governor. He
26:49
Speaker 2: is welcome at any time. Saying that loud and clear.
26:53
Speaker 2: I've emailed them multiple times. They say they'll get back
26:56
Speaker 2: to me. Love to have Phil Scott anytime, Lieutenant or two.
27:01
Speaker 2: You know, I'm I want to do a housing one. Okay,
27:09
Speaker 2: I want to do what's the future of Vermont. Like
27:12
Speaker 2: we were just talking, the institutions don't work anymore. We
27:15
Speaker 2: have to redesign this state so that people can live
27:19
Speaker 2: well in the next generation. And I need to have
27:23
Speaker 2: a show dedicated just to that.
27:25
Speaker 1: All right, John Rodgers is coming in here real soon
27:29
Speaker 1: and he's gonna be sitting right there. Will you write
27:32
Speaker 1: him a note today, whatever you want. Scribble a little
27:35
Speaker 1: note to him? Oh? Absolutely? What would you say to
27:37
Speaker 1: him right now? Am I trying to be funny or
27:41
Speaker 1: am I being serious? Be serious?
27:42
Speaker 2: Okay?
27:45
Speaker 1: Because I'm a fan.
27:47
Speaker 2: Of his, because I think he captured the moment in
27:52
Speaker 2: this state to get elected, and I admired his ability
27:56
Speaker 2: to do that.
27:58
Speaker 1: I would say, lead the.
28:01
Speaker 2: Lead the conversation on which I think he's trying to do,
28:05
Speaker 2: on what this state needs to be in the next generation,
28:08
Speaker 2: the next twenty five years. Lead lead it because it's hard,
28:12
Speaker 2: and Lieutenant Governor gives you a little freedom because you're
28:16
Speaker 2: not legislating.
28:17
Speaker 1: You're not chair of a committee.
28:19
Speaker 2: So you can go out there and give a lot
28:21
Speaker 2: of talks and be the convener of a conversation about
28:25
Speaker 2: what's the future of this state, schools, housing, healthcare. Forgot
28:30
Speaker 2: about healthcare because healthcare is killing our schools. Healthcare, the
28:35
Speaker 2: cost of healthcare is killing our schools.
28:38
Speaker 1: You say that Vermont is becoming, or maybe always has been,
28:45
Speaker 1: a real place.
28:48
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that? Uh, everything's not performance.
28:56
Speaker 2: Everything's not a show on Instagram a bunch of influencers.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yet the politics are still real. Things that happen here
29:06
Speaker 2: are real. You know, our friend next door is making
29:12
Speaker 2: Vermont Salumi, and he's making making a real product. That's
29:16
Speaker 2: a real product. The guy who plows your driveway is
29:21
Speaker 2: a real guy who's plowing your driveway at three in
29:24
Speaker 2: the morning. So you can get to work where I
29:28
Speaker 2: come from in New Jersey. That is happening less and less.
29:32
Speaker 2: It's a real place with a real identity. Bob Nelson
29:34
Speaker 2: across the street is a real guy who's gonna help
29:38
Speaker 2: you find the right air conditioner for your house or
29:41
Speaker 2: the right wheelbarrow.
29:43
Speaker 1: And if you get the wrong screwdriver, even though you've
29:48
Speaker 1: opened the package, you can bring it back, Yeah and
29:51
Speaker 1: get the right one. Yeah, exactly, And receipt not needed,
29:55
Speaker 1: receipt not needed. Thank you that you know what You
29:57
Speaker 1: just said it much better than me. Yeah. Yeah.
30:00
Speaker 2: And the woman at the counter has worked there for
30:05
Speaker 2: twenty five years.
30:06
Speaker 1: Sure, and I don't care where she's from. And right,
30:11
Speaker 1: and the guy or gal who's in his thirties or forties,
30:17
Speaker 1: that was their first job when they were in high school.
30:21
Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. You you say Vermont is a real place,
30:28
Speaker 1: not the version found in the tourist guides.
30:33
Speaker 2: Right, that's true. God, I wrote that somewhere. You're reading it.
30:37
Speaker 1: You did, I did so, I ask you. Yeah, honestly
30:43
Speaker 1: a fair question. Yeah, have yes or no? Have you
30:46
Speaker 1: been inside Maplefields up in Berlin, the big irving gas station.
30:56
Speaker 2: The one in Berlin. Yeah, probably once right up the road. Yeah,
30:59
Speaker 2: I've been in Plainfield, Okay, I seem to always.
31:02
Speaker 1: I don't know. You should need to go there please? Yeah,
31:07
Speaker 1: if we go, Yeah, I'll buy you the breakfast, the lunch,
31:12
Speaker 1: whatever you want. I'll buy you as many cups of
31:13
Speaker 1: coffee whatever. If we could just sit there, highly recommend
31:19
Speaker 1: look around, look at the walls and see what the
31:24
Speaker 1: tourism department the literally the picture that they have painted
31:30
Speaker 1: of our state. And man, it's like Hollywood movie. It's beautiful. Yeah,
31:37
Speaker 1: every single word is crafted. It's like so carefully.
31:40
Speaker 2: It's like the rest areas at Guilford or Sharon or
31:45
Speaker 2: or it's the other one. Yeah, it's yeah, I get it.
31:50
Speaker 2: It's not it's not my kind of Vermont.
31:54
Speaker 1: We have. We have real issues here man. Oh yeah,
31:57
Speaker 1: I mean issues everywhere. There's home. It's camps all around
32:01
Speaker 1: here that you cannot see. Yeah, from driving down main
32:05
Speaker 1: Street everywhere everywhere. What I tell people who visit me
32:10
Speaker 1: here on their way up from wherever New York Boston is.
32:16
Speaker 1: Once you get across the boarder, the best thing you
32:18
Speaker 1: can do is take an hour and get off the
32:22
Speaker 1: main road. So if you're on Route four between Kellington
32:25
Speaker 1: and Woodstock, take a right or left and just get
32:29
Speaker 1: on a dirt road unless it's April, unless it's April,
32:33
Speaker 1: and just drive and you you will eighty percent of
32:38
Speaker 1: the time you will not believe how wonderful it is.
32:42
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of rural poverty out there, A
32:45
Speaker 1: lot what's what crawls round in your in the head
32:51
Speaker 1: of Kevin Ellis during a typical day of Oh my god,
32:56
Speaker 1: I've got to start pardon the pun, but but going
33:02
Speaker 1: down that road, I've got to bring this subject matter
33:08
Speaker 1: to my podcast Beautiful here in that that Ben wants
33:14
Speaker 1: his wants his company back, right and all the reasoning,
33:17
Speaker 1: But behind that, I mean, what a cluster. Yeah, that's
33:22
Speaker 1: putting it mildly, But what is that?
33:25
Speaker 2: What's what's that thing where you're like, Man, if I
33:28
Speaker 2: were to kick the bucket next week, I hope were
33:34
Speaker 2: I was at least getting some real traction on getting
33:38
Speaker 2: our state to open their eyes to what.
33:42
Speaker 1: More than anything, the.
33:44
Speaker 2: Thing that's keeping me up literally right now is the
33:48
Speaker 2: three the five episode documentary podcasts that I need to
33:53
Speaker 2: do about Bernie Sanders, because I don't think we have
33:57
Speaker 2: adequately understand good the impact of Bernie Sanders on the
34:05
Speaker 2: state and how close he came to being president were
34:09
Speaker 2: it not for the Clinton forces that, in my view,
34:13
Speaker 2: sabotaged him. All fair, all's fair in love and war
34:16
Speaker 2: and politics. But I think we need to come to grips.
34:21
Speaker 2: It's not Look, this isn't life or death. You know,
34:23
Speaker 2: people start, people are hungry out there. But so we
34:26
Speaker 2: don't need another podcast. But but I do want to
34:30
Speaker 2: really unlock the door on how Bernie Sanders came to be.
34:37
Speaker 1: So, but that's a lot of work and I'm busy. Yeah,
34:43
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he's got a lot of fans, oh,
34:48
Speaker 1: a lot of fans. Well, and he's got he's got
34:51
Speaker 1: a lot of folks that that you got to be
34:54
Speaker 1: careful when you're talking about Bernie because you've got a
34:57
Speaker 1: lot of folks out there that are admittedly very right leaning.
35:02
Speaker 1: Well that's the secret. But don't don't you dare slam Bernie. Well,
35:07
Speaker 1: that's his secret.
35:08
Speaker 2: I mean, Trump got one hundred thousand votes in Vermont,
35:12
Speaker 2: and a lot of those people voted for Bernie Sanders.
35:15
Speaker 2: A lot a lot of rural conservatives vote for Bernie
35:18
Speaker 2: Sanders and for the same reason they voted for Trump.
35:22
Speaker 2: And why the Democrats can't fricking figure that out is
35:25
Speaker 2: a mystery to me. It is a mystery to.
35:28
Speaker 1: Me because Democrats now they're gonna get mad at me.
35:32
Speaker 2: Would rather explain it. I'll tell you his story. Do
35:35
Speaker 2: I have time, please? You know this Act one to
35:38
Speaker 2: eighty one thing?
35:38
Speaker 1: Yeah?
35:40
Speaker 2: I saw a leading Democrat in the groat in the
35:43
Speaker 2: Hunger Mountain co op and I said, are you you
35:48
Speaker 2: have your hands around this Act one to eighty one thing?
35:50
Speaker 2: Because it is I lived through take back Vermont during
35:53
Speaker 2: the same sex marriage days. Yea, and it was ugly
35:57
Speaker 2: and it tore the staid part and the same thing
36:00
Speaker 2: things about to happen. And do you have your hands
36:02
Speaker 2: around this politically? And she said, oh, yeah, no problem.
36:07
Speaker 2: As soon as you talk to them about it, they
36:13
Speaker 2: understand it. And I just walked away and shook my
36:17
Speaker 2: head and said, there's the problem with the Democratic Party
36:20
Speaker 2: in a nutshell. You're talking about them, You're not talking
36:24
Speaker 2: about your neighbors. You're not talking about mistakes that you
36:27
Speaker 2: might have made in trying to push through this Act
36:33
Speaker 2: one to eighty one thing. And it's a real problem.
36:37
Speaker 2: And the Democratic Party why they can't learn from Bernie Sanders.
36:41
Speaker 2: I do not understand because they think they are better
36:45
Speaker 2: and smarter and they're not.
36:48
Speaker 1: This is what is what I'm saying when I refer
36:50
Speaker 1: to you as someone who's bridging the cat. Yeah, you're
36:53
Speaker 1: doing that right now. Yeah.
36:55
Speaker 2: Really it's Democrats lost to Trump for a reason. Trump
37:00
Speaker 2: isn't magic. It happened once in twenty sixteen. Okay, aberration,
37:06
Speaker 2: you know, crazy.
37:09
Speaker 1: Blip in the matrix. You know it happened again.
37:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, fifty million people don't vote for a
37:16
Speaker 2: guy because you know, the Democratic Party used to be
37:20
Speaker 2: for working people.
37:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, no longer. What's the what's the look on your
37:26
Speaker 1: face when you're hearing about stuff going on in New
37:28
Speaker 1: York City? Montmi.
37:29
Speaker 2: I love him, really love him.
37:33
Speaker 1: There's something expensive gruncery stores, don't you think, Kevin? You
37:38
Speaker 1: gotta try something?
37:40
Speaker 2: Wow?
37:40
Speaker 1: Man.
37:41
Speaker 2: I just love him as a communicator. He's in the street,
37:44
Speaker 2: he's talking to people's he's honest.
37:48
Speaker 1: I love the way.
37:49
Speaker 2: You know, his wife said some crazy things about Israel,
37:53
Speaker 2: stepped up to the microphone and said, she doesn't speak
37:56
Speaker 2: for me, she doesn't speak for the mayor.
37:58
Speaker 1: And he'll work it out with her in Prime. Dave
38:01
Speaker 1: wants to know a brief summary of Bernie's start getting
38:04
Speaker 1: a comment here.
38:06
Speaker 2: I mean, here's a guy for a Jewish kid from Brooklyn, Midwood, Brooklyn,
38:12
Speaker 2: that's real Brooklyn, who came here during the Hippie migration
38:17
Speaker 2: and started running for office and would lose overwhelmingly time
38:23
Speaker 2: after time after time. And because of one professor at UVM,
38:29
Speaker 2: a guy named Richard Sugarman, who looked at the vote
38:32
Speaker 2: totals in the last mayoral race. He called up Bernie
38:35
Speaker 2: Sanders and he said, you know, if you ran for mayor,
38:38
Speaker 2: you could win. And Bernie said, I don't know anything
38:41
Speaker 2: about running running for mayor being a mayor. He said,
38:45
Speaker 2: don't worry about it. You can learn.
38:47
Speaker 1: And he wins by ten votes.
38:49
Speaker 2: And it is all contained in this fabulous new book
38:54
Speaker 2: called and I just interviewed him for the podcast Bernie
38:58
Speaker 2: for Burlington. It's by a guy named Dan Chasin. Just
39:04
Speaker 2: google it everybody. Bernie for Burlington by Dan Chasin, who
39:08
Speaker 2: is from Burlington, grew up there when Bernie was there.
39:12
Speaker 2: He's a poor Catholic kid and he watched Bernie happen
39:17
Speaker 2: up close. He interviewed all the people who were there
39:19
Speaker 2: at the beginning, and he will come on this show.
39:22
Speaker 2: And it's a fabulous book and it tells the whole
39:26
Speaker 2: origin story of Bernie Sanders.
39:28
Speaker 1: I'll reach out to him. It's fantastic. I'll send you
39:31
Speaker 1: his email. I'm listening to you and I just I
39:34
Speaker 1: have to just ask you. You remember Fred Tuttle. Of course,
39:37
Speaker 1: my neighbor really and the guy who made the movie
39:40
Speaker 1: John Man with a Plant is in the legislature now
39:43
Speaker 1: and sheep farmer in Tunbridge. And that's something I'm having
39:46
Speaker 1: an Alzheimer's moment about his last name. God it happens
39:49
Speaker 1: at sixty seven, I understand. Is that a hold yards? Yeah?
39:53
Speaker 2: Wow, man Fred Tuttle, Fred Tuttle, good guy who's taken
39:57
Speaker 2: over board chair of Downstreet Now. Her name is Pegeen Mulherne.
40:03
Speaker 2: She is from Waterbury. She is a lawyer, but to
40:07
Speaker 2: call her a lawyer is to do her injustice. She's
40:10
Speaker 2: a sailor. And also, yeah, she's incredible. She's working with
40:18
Speaker 2: the Stowe Land Trust on a bunch of projects and she's.
40:22
Speaker 1: Just a wonderful, wonderful person. Look at what Downstreet has
40:26
Speaker 1: done just in the short time that you were board chair.
40:31
Speaker 1: There sixty nine knew apartment homes under construction across four communities,
40:38
Speaker 1: and I am barely scratching the surface here. Look at
40:42
Speaker 1: the stuff popping up around here Summer Street, I mean,
40:46
Speaker 1: Fox Run. This goes on and on and on. Mooresville.
40:49
Speaker 2: God man, well it helps me, amazing. It helps when
40:54
Speaker 2: you hire an executive director named Angela Harbin. She was
40:57
Speaker 2: on here? Who I had her in here? You know,
41:00
Speaker 2: not long ago? Hits that out of the park every day.
41:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, are we making progress quickly enough? Too slow? The exodus? No?
41:15
Speaker 1: Oh oh, the exodus of.
41:16
Speaker 2: What leaving Vermont? Folks leaving Vermont? No oh god no.
41:21
Speaker 2: But downstreet housing's not going to fix that issue. Downstreet
41:24
Speaker 2: housing is going to house people who are here. How
41:29
Speaker 2: do you slow the people who are the exodus of
41:31
Speaker 2: people leaving? You've got to create an economy that works
41:34
Speaker 2: for people.
41:34
Speaker 1: Well, it's not just it's not just the ones that
41:37
Speaker 1: are leaving that are saying I've had it. Yeah, whether
41:41
Speaker 1: they're forty fifty it's too cold. But the taxes to
41:44
Speaker 1: I believe or right, coming out of high school, going
41:49
Speaker 1: to South Carolina for college, yeah, and only coming back
41:53
Speaker 1: for Thanksgiving.
41:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, my kids. I have four kids. None of them
41:57
Speaker 2: live here. They live in San Francisco.
42:00
Speaker 1: D C, New York, and Davis, California. So well, Vermont's
42:08
Speaker 1: getting to the point where it's not that much cheaper
42:12
Speaker 1: to live than San Francisco.
42:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's And boy, I don't, again, not my domain expertise,
42:19
Speaker 2: I don't know how you lower the cost of housing.
42:21
Speaker 2: You if you're Mareau Weinberger, the former mayor of Burlington
42:25
Speaker 2: who's on this war path, you build more housing. Yeah,
42:28
Speaker 2: and I think that's right. You build more housing. And
42:30
Speaker 2: it's got to be it can't just be downstreet. It's
42:32
Speaker 2: got to be for profit, market rate housing.
42:35
Speaker 1: But it's it's not you know, one of the things
42:37
Speaker 1: that Angie was in here talking about and Sarah both
42:41
Speaker 1: was it's not just you don't just put it in
42:44
Speaker 1: a box of low income housing. That's a stamp that
42:50
Speaker 1: for maters don't like to hear.
42:54
Speaker 2: You can't put poor people in a box and walk away.
42:58
Speaker 2: You've got to create services around those people that help
43:03
Speaker 2: them get out of poverty and into the middle class.
43:08
Speaker 1: And we need to do a better job at doing that.
43:10
Speaker 1: I know that you have an appointment in Montpellier I'm
43:13
Speaker 1: not going to make you late. I told you i'd
43:15
Speaker 1: have you here. Are you sure I want to ask
43:18
Speaker 1: you too much fun? You know? May twelfth was a
43:22
Speaker 1: pretty hot day here in Barry Town meeting day. Losan
43:28
Speaker 1: just got reelected mayor. He did he did? You know?
43:32
Speaker 1: I was trying to say on the air that we
43:37
Speaker 1: all need, all of us, man, just need to try
43:42
Speaker 1: in the algorithms in our social media. It's not helping,
43:45
Speaker 1: but we all need to just try to take a
43:48
Speaker 1: deep breath and slow the hell down. And you know,
43:54
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, man, last year, I went to
44:00
Speaker 1: a softball game for my little kid. I brought my
44:04
Speaker 1: cell phone with me. Mistake number one. Oh, it ruined
44:12
Speaker 1: the game for me. And there's a feeling now that
44:18
Speaker 1: I have when I step into that ball field where
44:23
Speaker 1: I'm like, this was the field where that game was ruined. Yeah,
44:29
Speaker 1: we need to damper things down a little bit. We
44:32
Speaker 1: need to get back to our families, our gardens, what's
44:38
Speaker 1: most important, and our time here on earth. Man. It's
44:41
Speaker 1: like I woke up this morning waiting for my little
44:46
Speaker 1: girl to come out in the truck stock a driver
44:49
Speaker 1: to school. I'm looking at the dude glistening on the grass.
44:53
Speaker 1: I got my seventy six y Ford pickup truck parked
44:56
Speaker 1: in the yard. I'm listening to a cardinal and I'm like, man,
45:01
Speaker 1: it is just it's pretty good. Zip roll those windows down,
45:06
Speaker 1: let some fresh air come in. We're lucky to be alive. Man.
45:11
Speaker 1: Just we need to like respectfully shut up about a
45:16
Speaker 1: lot of stuff and just get back to our wives,
45:19
Speaker 1: our kids, our families and what's most important. Yeah, we're
45:24
Speaker 1: not Yeah, we're not going to the louder we get
45:28
Speaker 1: on social media. We're not going to change things going
45:30
Speaker 1: on in Iran. No.
45:33
Speaker 2: No, And you're not going to persuade the guy or
45:35
Speaker 2: gal you disagree with about it politics that they're wrong
45:39
Speaker 2: and you're right not going to do it. So take
45:44
Speaker 2: get the phone out of the bedroom, leave it in
45:48
Speaker 2: some place in the kitchen. Yeah, charging and use it
45:52
Speaker 2: as a tool, not your everyday tether tether and go
45:58
Speaker 2: to a ball game. I just said this to my
46:01
Speaker 2: wife the other day. We were driving past the Mountaineers,
46:05
Speaker 2: you know, the wreck field in and I said, you know,
46:09
Speaker 2: we ought to go get those stupid little Walmart camp
46:13
Speaker 2: chairs and let's go to a Mountaineers game and just
46:16
Speaker 2: sit there and don't do anything right and unplug and unplucked.
46:22
Speaker 2: First game Sunday, June seventh. There you go, Opening night.
46:25
Speaker 1: Kids playing baseball. Yeah, have hot talk or whatever. I
46:30
Speaker 1: creamy eat badly. Please, I know, man, it's it's it's
46:36
Speaker 1: we just we need to and listen. We all have
46:40
Speaker 1: strong opinions. Yeah, we need to lower the temperature a
46:43
Speaker 1: little bit and try to not push our opinion. I'm
46:48
Speaker 1: going to convince them. I'm going to convince them.
46:50
Speaker 2: Well, I get you know, I get because on the
46:52
Speaker 2: podcast and also the live thing I'm doing in Montpelier,
46:56
Speaker 2: I get some of that. I'm like, well, you're not
46:58
Speaker 2: if you have a a Paul you know, oh you
47:00
Speaker 2: didn't ask Ben Cohen. You know, you didn't push Ben
47:04
Speaker 2: Cohen on this issue, or you didn't push the politician
47:08
Speaker 2: on this issue. And I'm like, you know, they could
47:11
Speaker 2: pushed on that by real journalists.
47:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:15
Speaker 2: I don't consider myself a real journalist. I consider myself
47:18
Speaker 2: I mean, I do some journalism, but it's more of
47:20
Speaker 2: a convening of a conversation for people. I feel like
47:25
Speaker 2: I'm a cross between Phil Donna Hu and Oprah Winfrey.
47:28
Speaker 1: If that fascinating.
47:30
Speaker 2: Young people are not going to know what that means,
47:32
Speaker 2: but you know, you want you gotta have a little fun.
47:37
Speaker 1: And you know we had.
47:38
Speaker 2: Boy, we had fun with Rika Hellman, and I'm not
47:41
Speaker 2: going to push her on.
47:42
Speaker 1: I don't know.
47:43
Speaker 2: You were born in Charlotte. Doesn't that mean you're you know,
47:48
Speaker 2: wealthy and therefore not blue collar or not.
47:51
Speaker 1: I don't know, No, it's not. That's not what I'm doing. Yeah, affordability,
47:57
Speaker 1: cost of living, housing, cost of everything. Frankly, healthcare, healthcare
48:03
Speaker 1: is crazy, man.
48:04
Speaker 2: Crazy, It's crazy, and it's only going to get crazier.
48:09
Speaker 2: What do you have for healthcare? I'm on Medicare? Okay,
48:13
Speaker 2: God bless Lyndon Johnson, a Democrat who convinced his Republican
48:21
Speaker 2: buddies back in nineteen sixty four that this was the
48:26
Speaker 2: right thing to do. That people shouldn't die penniless from
48:32
Speaker 2: being sick because they couldn't go to a doctor when
48:35
Speaker 2: they were sixty five years old. And it works. That's
48:40
Speaker 2: happening with folks that are a lot younger. Yeah than
48:43
Speaker 2: that right now? Yeah, And I gotta say, I don't
48:49
Speaker 2: I don't have a good argument for why we shouldn't
48:51
Speaker 2: lower the age of medicare to sixty, and then do
48:55
Speaker 2: fifty five, and then do fifty Wow, and then you
49:01
Speaker 2: got medicare for all.
49:02
Speaker 1: Tell me why that's a bad thing.
49:03
Speaker 2: I think it's because the Republicans would say it's too expensive,
49:08
Speaker 2: or it's a socialized medicine, or you know, I love medicare.
49:13
Speaker 2: Give me a little more socialized medicine.
49:15
Speaker 1: Wow. And for the cost of a couple of bombs
49:19
Speaker 1: in Iran.
49:19
Speaker 2: Here I'm getting in more trouble, but politically, but I
49:23
Speaker 2: think we can pay for this.
49:28
Speaker 1: Your podcast conflict of Interest? Yeah, when's the next one?
49:33
Speaker 1: June twenty fifth, The.
49:34
Speaker 2: Live audience one June twenty fifth, Monpiliar Performing Arts Hub,
49:38
Speaker 2: the two Democratic candidates for governor.
49:41
Speaker 1: How can we tune in to your regular podcast that's
49:46
Speaker 1: happening all the time. There's a newsletter you have too,
49:49
Speaker 1: and a website. I have a substack newsletter. Just search
49:53
Speaker 1: for Kevin Ellis's Conflict of Interest and the substack will
49:56
Speaker 1: come up. I have a website, Kevin k Elis dot com.
50:03
Speaker 1: But the sub sacs more interesting.
50:05
Speaker 2: And wherever you get your podcasts, So on your phone, everybody,
50:08
Speaker 2: I'm talking to my mother here.
50:10
Speaker 1: Click on the little purple icon. I'm the power button.
50:14
Speaker 2: Not click on the little purple icon. That's Apple Podcasts.
50:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
50:18
Speaker 2: And if you have an Android phone, go to Spotify
50:21
Speaker 2: and search for me.
50:22
Speaker 1: Okay, it'll come up. That's simple. It's yeah.
50:25
Speaker 2: I mean ever trying telling your parents how to find
50:29
Speaker 2: your podcast.
50:30
Speaker 1: Many times, I'm still doing that. Hit the button. I
50:38
Speaker 1: thanks for coming in. Hey, thanks for having me. Kevin Ellison.
50:41
Speaker 1: Wait time, what an absolute joy. Please have a cup
50:46
Speaker 1: of coffee with me sometime up at Maplefields so we
50:49
Speaker 1: can look at the walls and and talk. Will invite
50:52
Speaker 1: Skip Valley, the owner who I know. Can we do that?
50:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, he's the he's a big Republican guy, big
50:58
Speaker 2: George Bush guy, great guy, he owns all the Maplefield.
51:03
Speaker 1: All right, let's do that.
51:03
Speaker 2: Okay, can we say you're on the record, I'll email him.
51:07
Speaker 1: All right, perfect, We're gonna do that. Okay, Thanks Kevin,
51:10
Speaker 1: see you later. Thanks, thanks for having my guest this
51:13
Speaker 1: time around on the aired out podcast. Thanks everybody, sweetheart.
51:17
Speaker 1: It's in Heroes Day tomorrow morning. It's gonna be a
51:19
Speaker 1: lot of fun. We'll see you then into