Latest / Cultivator Podcast / Episode 7 - Trio Talks - The Sermon on The Mount
Transcript
- Justin Stice: We got a plan today? ⁓ he told me we talked about it last week. Yeah, do you remember? No. Wonderful. Do you? No. Hey, welcome to the Cultivator Podcast. I'm Dave. I'm here with Justin and with Scott. And we're we're glad to have you. We have been doing this for a while now and have done some episodes with some of our ⁓ cultivators and had some conversations with them. And ⁓ I hope you've been watching those with ⁓ with Mitch and then with the Millers. I mean they're they're I think they're really insightful into getting a picture of what we're about and some of the people that are our core to who we are. ⁓ So today, ⁓ I'm not sure exactly what the task looks like, but we're we're talking about ⁓ in this next season, just diving into the Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount has a lot of conversation around it, a lot of stuff in there that's just really hard. I was telling these guys ⁓ last week or the week before, I don't remember which. ⁓ in some of my evening working stuff for my t shirt company, I've been listening to the Sermon on the Mount on repeat on my Bible app. And man, there's just some hard stuff in here. There really is. I mean, I think that it's real easy for us to take this and throw it at people that aren't acting this way or whatever or disagree with us politically or whatever and ⁓ throw this at it. But man, if we're real honest with ourselves, this is a hard teaching. Like I totally get, and it's not after this, but when the disciples say to Jesus, this this is a hard teaching. Who can who can live by this? I think that's the Sermon on the Mount. But Today we just kind of want to have a conversation around, kind of a a ⁓ macro conversation around the Sermon on the Mount and what kind of role it plays. ⁓ because we believe, and I think that other people smarter than us will back us up on this, that Jesus lays out for us, for his disciples, the values of the kingdom. Now, if we were to take Jesus' teaching and put it in categories, ⁓ the biggest ⁓ thing that he talks about over and over and over again is the kingdom. The kingdom, the kingdom. And the reality is, ⁓ we live in a ⁓ you know, democratic republic. We don't have a king. ⁓ we don't want a king. I mean, we have protests against kings. ⁓ and so we don't really understand how a kingdom works. And so some of that, we talked about this the other day, some of that, the language gets lost. And so we just want to kind of dive in. Today's going to be like I said, an overview, but we just want to dive into The Sermon on the Mount, what it is, what it what role it can play, and just kind of talk about what values guide the kingdom of God. And I think with that is like understanding even if we don't even get into Sermon on the Mount yet, it's like understanding like this idea of the kingdom. ⁓ because I think what you said is right, is like Jesus, this is kind of the predominant thing that he is preaching about. ⁓ he's preaching about he comes and shows up and it's like The good news is a declaration of this kingdom that is at hand, that is with so many things. It is at hand, it is within us, it is around us, it is all these things. And I think Dave said it great, is like we really have no idea what this idea of a kingdom is. And as I mean, as we're talking, I'm kind of reliving some of my Bible school days, kind of that. And I'm just reminded that, you know, so I'm a big advocate, a big believer in narrative theology. Like I underst I I I like want to know what Matthew is saying about Jesus and not necessarily Matthew, Mark, Luke put together. I'm not a big kind of harmony of the gospels guy. But one of the places that this really gets twisted, and I think we would need to be really sensitive to is Matthew is written as a Jewish gospel. It is written to the Jews. And we understand from the Old Testament that the name of God was sacrosanct in the the Jewish faith. And so they did not just throw that around, right? I mean, and so when Matthew talks about the kingdom of God, he uses the euphemism kingdom of heaven. And so often we lose the kingdom part and we think that Jesus is talking about heaven when that's just such a I mean, that's not what Jesus is going for here. And so ⁓ I just was reminded that w one of the reasons why we look at like things like the Sermon on the Mount and think it's speaks about a time in the future when all is restored is because we don't understand that. Yeah. ⁓ the the portrayal in the Sermon on the Mount is not of how it will be when all is restored. The portrayal is this is how we bring heaven to earth. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so we j I I just want to keep that at the front of our minds because this is not painting a picture of heaven. This is painting a picture of the kingdom. Kingdom. Yeah. And so I think with that Scott, I would love just gonna ask you, but when I say, Hey, what if you had to define kingdom, even before we even get to the idea of the kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God, but just this understanding of a kingdom. Like, help us kind of flesh that out a little bit. Well I'm I'm I mean, I'm like everybody else. I grew up in America and so I'm not sure I have a really good grasp of kingdom, but I I know for me the the the idea of kingdom is is that the kingdom is what belongs to the king and everything in the kingdom belongs to the king. And so if I'm in the kingdom, I don't belong to me. I belong to the king. And in a I mean an actual kingdom back in those days and even these days, I mean, the home I live in, the land I live on, the the tools I use, the crops that I grow or the business that I do, all of that belongs to the king in a kingdom. All of it. Not none of it is mine. ⁓ and so I think that element or that paradigm gets lost in our democracy upbringing. Yeah. And we we don't realize that what's being talked about is is that be becoming more and more and more his altogether. All together. Yeah. Because in a kingdom, if if realizing none of this is really mine, it's the king's. Right. And I just got to get to steward it. Right. Per se. And that could I that's that's money, that's time, that's it any and all things that we have ultimately. Yeah. And I think that is a very hard mindset to to change because w here in the West and here in America, even here in West Texas ⁓ there is a very strong sense of rugged individualism. Yes. Right. That's just who we are. That's what we do. And so like the idea of this what I have to have and what I've done isn't really mine. Right. ⁓ I think that that is one of the big things that you we conflict with even the idea of our idea of church in the kingdom. Yes. Because we can even have conversations around that of like there's this idea of the kingdom versus this idea of what we know as the church, and there's even probably opposing There there is opposing No problem. There is there is opposing ⁓ things that go on in this. Yeah. It's the confrontation of the kingdoms that I'm building. Mm-hmm. That it confronts that. You know, it's like, ⁓ this is the kind of future I want. This is what I'm working for to bring that future about. I am in the process of building my own kingdom in that in that process. And So when we start hearing about the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God, ⁓ you know, the in the Sermon on the Mount we'll hear seek first the kingdom and of God and his righteousness. We'll hear that. ⁓ that that's what that is saying is that there isn't necessarily anything wrong with having other kingdoms as long as the kingdom of God is primary. It determines all other kingdoms that you build. And as you see what I'm saying. So just to show this little bit, so just think about I'm thinking like Jesus shows up and he's talking to the people in there and he's using these words like kingdom and in in their minds, they understand this reality of kingdoms. Mm-hmm. Right? So y'all w kind of talk to me about that. What you kind of put ourselves in the place where Jesus shows up and you have these ⁓ Jewish people all of a sudden hear this new rabbi begin to declare and talk about Like, can y'all help me understand maybe what have what would be going on in their minds and thoughts as they're hearing this new rabbi like start declaring this idea of a of another kingdom? Well I I well one is ⁓ they're they're gonna be working with a view of Messiah that has this king that's gonna come. Messiah means king. ⁓ This king that's gonna come and he's gonna eradicate the Romans and establish a w an earthly, physical, visible kingdom ⁓ for them. And ⁓ so you know, there there had when so when Jesus starts sharing the values of on of the kingdom in the Sermon on the Mount, the very first sentence, Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall It's just like what wait wait, what? What? You know, 'cause what he's doing, he's elevating the word poor there means abject poverty. That those who are in abject poverty are blessed. What? And so i they had I mean they had to look at a gate, you know, sideways like a you know, a a cow or a deer would be looking at wha you know what? What are you telling? This is not the idea that I thought was gonna happen. Right. So It wa it so like us, I mean they they had an ⁓ they have an already they're already conditioned to understand kingdom, but they were preconditioned by their own theology th that it it was a different kind of kingdom than what Jesus was bringing in. And in some ways this is what got him killed, got Jesus killed was because he was Preaching a a a ⁓ kingdom, basic a kingdom of love and grace when they were wanting one of violence and power. Yeah. So so ⁓ I think our response to like what Dave was saying, like this is hard. This is this stuff is hard. I think they were having that same Well, 'cause this idea of accumul when we get into the Sermon Mount, it's it is very upside down. It is very just not what It it it doesn't go along with their idea of of the kingdom of of what they thought was gonna happen with Israel and declaring but then it definitely doesn't come into a line with the idea of the c that they said understand the kingdom the Roman kingdom that they were being right ruled by. Right. And so this dynamic of he he disrupts ⁓ the kingdoms I'm building, they w they were having the same problem. Even though they understood what kingdom was, that they knew that concept that a king owns everything, they were expecting a king that would build the kind of world they were wanting and Jesus wasn't offering that. Is that making sense? Yes, it makes total sense. And so how often does that happen for us today? Let's not jump to application just yet. Let's ⁓ let's pick on the disciples a little bit more. Yeah, I love that so you think about this, so you disciples. So Yeah, I'm I mean y'all know I'm a John guy, like that's my jam, but like it's fascinating to me in looking at at how Matthew sets this up, right? And and I'm pretty traditional when it comes to authorship and understanding of that and And so I think it's Matthew the tax collector that wrote this. And ⁓ even as you're talking, Scott, I'm thinking, is are there any of the disciples, maybe, maybe Simon the zealot, but are there any disciples that had to unlearn more to flip this over? I mean, he has been he has been a taskmaster of the king, the Caesar, the one in power. Yes. And he knows a way to do that, right? I mean, tax collectors were, they were A huge part of the kingdom because they collected the money that made the kingdom work. Right. Right. And so here's Matthew, who has done this is his background. And so I'm very interested in how he tells the story. Yeah. Right. And so if we're just flipping through, like Matthew starts with the genealogy. I mean, a horrible way to start a testament. And we're just like, let's start with the genealogy. But he lays out, and this is you know the Jewishness of Jesus, he's laying that out. Right. And then in chapter two, we have The story of the Magi, the wise men that come and visit Jesus, and the escape to Egypt, and then he comes back to Nazareth, and John the Baptist shows up. And then Jesus gets baptized. In chapter four, he's in the desert, right? And so up until this point, like I I I love that I grabbed this Bible because it's a red letter. Jesus has said almost nothing. Like in chapter three, he says, Let it be so now. It's proper to do this to fulfill all righteousness when he's getting baptized by John, right? Then he talks to The tempter in the in the desert, and then in chapter four, the first words that kind of publicly come out of his mouth are repent for the kingdom of heaven. has come near. I mean, and I think it's important. We talk a lot about repentance in our world, but not in the sense of come forward at the end of a service and tell everything you've done wrong. But in the sense of you have to unlearn what you you this is a different kingdom. Yeah. You gotta think differently. Yes. And so that those are kind of the first public words out of Jesus' mouth is you gotta think differently 'cause the kingdom of heaven has come near. Dang. And so then he calls his first disciples, not all of them, he calls some of them. Yep. And then this little just small little pericope here where he w goes throughout Galilee teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. And news about him spreads everywhere. He gets real, real popular real quick. And I think, again, this is me speculating that Jesus is like, I gotta check myself. Like I got we're getting a lot of notoriety because people were sick, now they're not. I gotta pull my disciples aside and we gotta do something different. And so chapter five starts. Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. Like even that is so countercultural. Like, hey, there's a crowd that wants to hear me. Let's go somewhere else. Yeah. You know. And then and that's what then he his disciples came to him and he began to teach them. And and we we lead into that. And and that that's real crucial right there. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. You go, okay, read read that again where he sat down and then what happened? ⁓ his disciples came to him and he began to teach them. Okay, and so to me, if we're gonna understand the kingdom and began to absorb it, we have to come to him. Yeah. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's good. And I and I love this because it he's setting like before he goes on to any other ministry, before he does anything else, he's like, Hey, I I I'm just gonna explain this thing to you guys a little bit. I'm gonna give you an idea of what we're we're doing here. And it's gonna be completely different than what you have thought about, have you imagined and this thing and so but I love that like he's this f starting in five through six seven through the whole Sermon on the Mount, he's really kind of giving this this greater picture of what he is about and what he's here to do. ⁓ yeah and there is even in this y you Scott you y there is a contrast that runs throughout the gospels of the crowds and the disciples. Yes. The crowds are not the disciples. Right. They are a separate group that usually is not composed of primarily followers of Jesus. Right. The crowd is this kind of group that comes for the show or they come for the miracles or they come to receive the bread and fish. They're the consumers. The consumers. Yeah. And then and I think that there is a And this is one of the things that I think is so crucial about this, okay? And I want to say this very clearly. This is written to people who are followers of Jesus. Yeah. This is not written for followers of Jesus to throw at the other political party and say, you have to act this way. It's the way of Jesus. We as followers of Jesus have to dive deep into this, not to weaponize it, to take it out politically, but to really see what. a disciple of Jesus looks like. Right. I I would even add, now there's some of this sermon that we are to take ownership and com we are to take our lives and comply with it. But I also would add that I think some of what Jesus is doing is saying, if you if you if if you'll let me be king in this kingdom, if you'll accept this kingdom, I'm gonna make you like this. You know, like the Beatitude is like I I I think the Beatitudes is his d he's describing what he's gonna be up to in our lives. And w you know, will we allow him 'cause like I I can't bring the he kingdom of heaven to earth, but he can through me. Right. So does that make sense? Yeah. Well and you know, I d I don't know how far we'll get on this, but like the beatitudes are not commands. No. Like they're not not you be poor in spirit because that way you'll be blessed. It's it is just a statement of reality. Right. Statement of the values of the kingdom, which is fundamentally different from saying, Be poor in spirit, be meek, mourn, you know, be Merciful. Yeah, I I think he's telling us this is what if you if you'll accept the kingdom as the king, this is what I'm gonna I'm gonna make you this. I'm gonna build this in you. You need to be expecting the work that I do in your life that this is going to be the outcome of that. Yeah. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 'Cause there's no way I can I can't make myself the Beatitudes. I can't Right. You know, I can't create that. Right. And I think all this speaks to this idea of how w how we're trying to send this up is man, our hope and our our prayer in this cultivator podcast is for people that are cultivating the kingdom, right? That's where we live, where we land a place. But even right now I I wanted this thing about like as we're approaching scripture, because I we feel like scripture is one of these huge parts of we have to be looking at scripture. And here's and we all agree on this, it's not just for information. But it's for transformation. So as we begin to approach looking in scripture and looking at Sermon Amount, we're not just trying to obtain a bunch of information, right? Because we know everybody that knows all information. But but what is it that that God is trying to transform in us as we begin to approach to dive into scripture? ⁓ and because I think so much we can say, hey, I have the whole all the beatitudes memorized, I have all this stuff, but like dude, that doesn't mean nothing in the way that you're living your life. And so I I well speak to that a little bit. Well, yes, absolutely. But one of the things that hit me over you know, when you listen to the whole thing, like we we I mean, I memorized Matthew 5, 6, and 7 when I was in Bible college. We had to memorize verse markings, all the punctuation, we had to write it all out, chapter 5, then chapter 6, then chapter 7. Side note, I remember be feeling really, really righteous, right? So no no, but let me tell you, when that semester. What translation are we talking about? ⁓ we're NIV. ⁓ okay. Old nineteen eighty four NIV. ⁓ I was feeling like really number one, persecuted, 'cause that's a lot of work. Yeah. And number two, just holier than anything. And that that around Easter time we went to ⁓ do this kind of thing called week of evangelism where you go out to different places and just kind of serve the church or the community or whatever. And one of the days we went to a monastery and so we're there with the monks and I was just making sure he knew how how spiritual I was. And he said, yeah, we had to do that too in English, Greek, and Latin. And I was like, all right, you're more holy than me. You're smarter than me. Anyway, but what as I was listening to this, it hit me every time. When you get to the end of it. And I think it's important to look how it starts and how it ends. This is how it ends. Therefore, anyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who builds his house on the rock. The rain came, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, yet it did not fall, because it had the foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great. Like Jesus' whole thing, he tells us at the end contextually. He lays it all out, but he says, you gotta be the wise builder. You gotta take this and you gotta put it into practice. Yeah. And I think sometimes we, because the Sermon on the Mount is so hard, it is so hard. I think, I mean, I think that Jesus starts with the Beatitudes. It's one of those, I'm the underdog here, so I'm gonna punch you in the mouth to let you know I'm here. Like I think the disciples, I'm surprised we got the rest of it, because I'm sure the disciples were reeling from His beatitudes. Like that's not the world that they I mean, not all of them are called, but I'm sure they're like, What the what is he what are we building here? Yeah. ⁓ but at the end he just comes back to it. It's not good enough to know it, to memorize it, to have chapter and verse markings and punctuation. If you don't put it into practice, you're a fool. Yeah. And I think this reminds me, Scott, a lot of times, I've heard you say this story a lot of time. And you're you tell the story about a guy that preaches. He gets up and he preaches in a small town and like he's a new pr pastor there, right? And he gets up and he preaches the same scripture like week in and week out, week in and week out. And I think it was like the third or fourth time somebody comes and sh and he's like, Yeah, we we get it, like let's go to something else And pretty much is like, Yeah, no, I I haven't actually seen you eat Live this. Right. If it changed anything. Right. And I think so often in in kind of our world of consumerism, ⁓ in today's kind of modern Christianity, is we we are good at consuming a lot of information, ⁓ but information doesn't equal transformation. Right. And so we have to like really sit, and a lot of times we talk about how we all have to allow scripture to read us. And so that's I think for us, we're not gonna be in a hurry getting through. The Sermon the Mount, we're gonna take time, we're gonna have some conversations. And then in the midst of this, we're gonna still have different interviews from cultivators, but us and kind of when we're together, we're gonna be talking about what's going on in this Sermon on the Mount. And because we do believe that this is where Jesus is laying out the values of the kingdom. Yeah, I mean I'm excited about it. I'm I'm also not excited about it because there's a lot in here that just it here here is here's just kind of where my heart is. Like when we take the words of Jesus and apply them to ourselves, it's beautiful. But when we our first step is to apply them to somebody else and to weaponize them, that's where, you know, the world looks at us and is like, you know, you you're hypocrites. Like I don't I I trust me, I listen to this at least ten times through and I fall short of so much of it. But I've got to apply it to me and I've got to work on me with this stuff before I have any reason to try to use this to try to change somebody else. Yeah, can I offer just a s quick story about application? When I became a Christian, I didn't I had no idea what a Christian was. I know I'd I knew I had encountered Jesus. I knew that. I knew he was real to me and that I had I had taken a step to surrender myself to him. That's all I knew. I didn't even know how church worked or anything like that. And I got a Bible. I can't remember I I I think a a preacher, the Methodist preacher, gave me a Bible. And so I started reading it and I, you know, and I'm so like, where do I start? Or you what said he said, Don't start in Genesis, start in the New Testament. ⁓ and I think he said start with the Gospel of John and then when you're through with the Gospel of John, go back to the front of the New Testament and start with Matthew. Well, I had gotten to Matthew. In my first exposure to the Sermon on the Mount was those Beatitudes. And I remember reading them real carefully, like and ⁓ a lot of this was I still wasn't understanding it. However, I'd met the author. And so it meant more to me, you know. So but I got to blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. I got to that one. And for some reason that one leaped off the page to me. And so this is what I did with it. I started praying it. I said, Lord, make me hungry. Make me thirsty for your righteousness. Make me hungry for you. Make me just just c starve for you. I just you know, and I prayed that prayer over and over and over. And I I personally think that my journey as a Christian has been the fruit of that prayer. Make me hungry for you. Does that make sense? So there's it's like I can't do that, but I can pray. I can up and that was an application of that beatitude. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I I think that right there, Scott, and we've talked about a little bit before. I that's something even my own life and people around the being in ministry for how many years, but like man, is there a longing for Jesus in me? Is there man this just desire to Intimately know him more and more and more and more. ⁓ his character, his nature, his essence, like all those things. And so I think sometimes i even before we can say, Hey, I d it's not there, but just that pr that that very practical apical prayer of like, Man, i i I it's not so God help that happen. Put that in me. ⁓ I think that's the great place to start. Yeah. ⁓ when we when we're approaching just this and just Jesus in general. Ultimately the values of the kingdom are the values of the king. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. And so we we seek Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. Right. Like what are you saying about who you are and then so who who we need to be. Who we need to be. Yeah. Yeah. And I think this right. I think this is something that we realize and there is it's something that Jesus begins to produce in us. It's a it it is a if if we're pursuing Jesus and these things become almost natural outcomes and outflowing of us as we are pursuing the king. Yeah. And so It's less on I gotta do this and I have to make this, but it's more like, no, this is what this is the natural thing that begins to happen in us as we are being about the king and his kingdom. Yeah. Yeah, you can't have the kingdom without the king. And you always get the kingdom if you have the king. Hmm. That's good. I should go on a t-shirt. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, y'all, that's where we're gonna be for the, you know, outside of some interviews and some stuff that gets kind of peppered in, like, we're just gonna sit in this. We're gonna meditate on this. Like, my hope is that maybe we get some other voices in on some of these passages to just hear different opinions, but we're just gonna wrestle with this together. And ⁓ if you want ⁓ comfortable maybe find a different podcast but we're we're gonna I mean we're gonna sit in this and try to see what it is that what transformation looks like. So we're always glad to hear from you if you have questions or you know if you're like hey I've got great insights into chapter six I'd love to sit with you. Hey reach out to us. We would love to ⁓ have multiple voices at this table and and and we'll see you next time when we jump into the Beatitudes I guess. Thanks have a good ⁓ have a good week.