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What are paraphilias? · Stuff You Should Know

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello, it's me Josh, and this Wednesday, October two, I'm
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Speaker 1: going to be in Austin, Texas to do my live
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Speaker 1: End of the World show. I'm going to be at
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Speaker 1: D venue dot com. So come see me because it's
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Speaker 1: gonna be pretty boss and there's a few tickets left
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Speaker 1: in New Orleans on October, you better go to s
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Speaker 1: Y s K live dot com. You'll get tickets in
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Speaker 1: info there and you will be very happy that you did.
0:35
Speaker 1: So see you guys in October. Welcome to Stuff you
0:38
Speaker 1: Should Know, a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,
0:47
Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, there's Charles
0:52
Speaker 1: W Chuck Bryant, and there's guest producer Lowell. I didn't
0:56
Speaker 1: say Noel, everybody said Lowell. He's the first timer and
0:59
Speaker 1: here to party. Is that why he has the beer bong,
1:05
Speaker 1: which we didn't even call beer bongs. We just called
1:07
Speaker 1: it funneling beer. Yeah? Yeah, oh, is that a beer bong?
1:10
Speaker 1: I didn't realize they are one and the same. I
1:12
Speaker 1: think so, it's just it must be regional. I just
1:15
Speaker 1: thought like the crazy college kids would come up with something,
1:19
Speaker 1: some new thing that was a beer bong that was
1:21
Speaker 1: different than a funnel. But okay, you know the good
1:23
Speaker 1: old days where you did kig stands and beer bongs,
1:25
Speaker 1: and you know, I think I did one of echo
1:29
Speaker 1: those in my entire college career. Was like, no, these
1:31
Speaker 1: aren't that great. I never did a kig stand. They're
1:34
Speaker 1: really hard. I don't understand them at all. They don't
1:37
Speaker 1: make any sense whatsoever. Well, I think the idea is
1:41
Speaker 1: you're upside down, right, but you're drinking. You know, the
1:44
Speaker 1: beer is going in the opposite direction. Is you're standing
1:48
Speaker 1: all right? I mean, I'm not sure the effect is
1:50
Speaker 1: supposed to have. I'm sure if there's a head rush involved,
1:52
Speaker 1: I don't know how I thought it was dumb. It
1:54
Speaker 1: would make way more sense to do one of these
1:57
Speaker 1: beer bongs and then do a handstand really quick. Yeah,
2:01
Speaker 1: I mean, enough funnel de beer too in my day,
2:03
Speaker 1: but that wasn't really my bag either. Just drinking like
2:06
Speaker 1: a normal human being. Yeah, yeah, you know, me as
2:09
Speaker 1: a freshman in college, shutting back with my brandy snifter
2:13
Speaker 1: then you're smoking jacket's right slippers? Well, obviously, Chuck, since
2:18
Speaker 1: I said smoking jacket and slippers, we're talking today about paraphilias,
2:22
Speaker 1: which could be the case if the smoking jacket and
2:26
Speaker 1: slippers were the was the only way that you could
2:29
Speaker 1: achieve erection and completion. What do you mean completion like
2:35
Speaker 1: you know, ejaculation. Oh, I got you. Completion. That's like
2:40
Speaker 1: such a great way to put it. Man, it's so
2:42
Speaker 1: like so crisp and sterile. Is it too late to
2:46
Speaker 1: issue our c o A. Yes, it is away. Yeah,
2:51
Speaker 1: I mean I figured since this is about paraphilias, unless
2:53
Speaker 1: you don't know what that is, then you probably don't
2:55
Speaker 1: have your kids listening already. But you know, we're gonna
2:57
Speaker 1: be talking a lot about stuff like knowl and completion
3:03
Speaker 1: and completion, abnormal sexuality. Yeah, which that you might as
3:09
Speaker 1: well that the can of worms has been opened because
3:12
Speaker 1: you said the word abnormal. Yeah, I mean that's what
3:15
Speaker 1: paraphilia means. Like para, the prefix means beside, but really
3:19
Speaker 1: in the usage, especially with with psychology, para means like abnormal,
3:24
Speaker 1: not normal um. And then philia means love, so it's
3:28
Speaker 1: abnormal love, which is kind of a funny way to
3:30
Speaker 1: put it, but it's a lot better than the way
3:32
Speaker 1: they used to put it, which is like deviants, sodomy, perversion. Yeah,
3:38
Speaker 1: so it's actually a huge, massive step forward to call
3:41
Speaker 1: it paraphilia. I actually found a couple of quick, quickie
3:46
Speaker 1: definitions that don't even use the word abnormal that I
3:49
Speaker 1: felt kind of nailed it a little better. One is
3:53
Speaker 1: psychology today says a condition and which a person's sexual
3:57
Speaker 1: arousal and gratification depend on fantasizing about and engaging engaging
4:03
Speaker 1: in sexual behaviors that are atypical and extreme. And then
4:08
Speaker 1: the other one says, you become sexually aroused by an
4:11
Speaker 1: object your activity that most people don't consider sexually stimulating. Okay, yeah,
4:17
Speaker 1: that's more interesting. That makes a lot of sense. That
4:20
Speaker 1: second one, my favorite one, is not hurting yourself for
4:24
Speaker 1: anybody else, Just go with it. That's that's a definition
4:29
Speaker 1: that I can get behind, right, And that will also
4:32
Speaker 1: bring up the distinction which we're going to be focusing
4:34
Speaker 1: a lot of this on, between a paria, a paraphilia,
4:38
Speaker 1: and a paraphilic disorder. Yeah, because the whole point of
4:44
Speaker 1: studying paraphilias is not to be like, well, look at
4:47
Speaker 1: this weirdo. Let's let's poke him and see what comes out,
4:49
Speaker 1: see what brings him to completion? You know. Um, it's
4:53
Speaker 1: instead to help people who are are distressed by the
4:58
Speaker 1: fact that they have an a typical um object or
5:02
Speaker 1: desire of sexual arousal, right like that that they are there,
5:07
Speaker 1: there's some sort of compulsion that they can't um disregard,
5:12
Speaker 1: and it's causing them to stress in their lives, or
5:14
Speaker 1: it's harming their lives in some way or and this
5:17
Speaker 1: one's even more important that there there are paraphilias that
5:22
Speaker 1: involve other people that are not consenting. That's a big,
5:27
Speaker 1: big problem too. It's big enough problem when it's affecting
5:30
Speaker 1: your own life, but when it involves somebody else who
5:32
Speaker 1: does not want to be involved in your paraphilia, then
5:35
Speaker 1: it's a big problem, and the courts frequently become involved. Yeah,
5:40
Speaker 1: so this is mainly an overview, so we're not going
5:43
Speaker 1: to get too much into specific paraphilias. Although tell me
5:47
Speaker 1: you didn't have a bunch of ideas for further episodes.
5:50
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that, But also, did you
5:52
Speaker 1: hear like a million people just go oh, but let's
5:58
Speaker 1: can I read through some of these real qu though
6:00
Speaker 1: at least, yeah, let's do that. So common paraphilia is
6:03
Speaker 1: Voyeurism is one. I think we all know what that is, sure,
6:06
Speaker 1: the peeping tom uh this is listed, which kind of
6:09
Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't know what was gonna be
6:11
Speaker 1: on here. Transvestism, yeah, cross stressing is a better way
6:15
Speaker 1: to put that, which is well, we'll talk a little
6:19
Speaker 1: more about that one later because it's a good example. Exhibitionism, yes,
6:23
Speaker 1: which can be just you know, um, if you like
6:27
Speaker 1: acting in porno films, you could be an exhibitionist and
6:30
Speaker 1: it could be very fulfilling or more frequently, from what
6:33
Speaker 1: I understand, you can expose your genitalia expecting person. Yeah,
6:38
Speaker 1: and a parking lot. And the thing that I read
6:40
Speaker 1: about exhibitionism and males what we commonly call like flashers.
6:46
Speaker 1: They're not. They don't get gratification from the other person,
6:49
Speaker 1: be like, oh hey, ten out of ten, you know,
6:52
Speaker 1: or let's go something like that. They get their gratification.
6:56
Speaker 1: This is the whole point of their exhibitionism is from
6:59
Speaker 1: the shock, from the surprise that they elicit from the
7:03
Speaker 1: other person when they suddenly expose their genitalius. Are you
7:06
Speaker 1: surprised by that. Yes, I was actually really did you
7:10
Speaker 1: think it was like a legit? Come on, I guess
7:14
Speaker 1: I always did. Now that I think about it, it
7:16
Speaker 1: is a little ridiculous, But it never occurred to me
7:18
Speaker 1: that that is what they were going for? Was that
7:20
Speaker 1: shock or surprise, which, yeah, which makes the whole non
7:24
Speaker 1: consenting thing even worse, you know, yeah, for sure. Uh
7:27
Speaker 1: So fetishism. And this is interesting because I think a
7:30
Speaker 1: lot of people think a fetish is just any you know,
7:34
Speaker 1: a typical sexual desire. But a fetish specifically is a
7:38
Speaker 1: non living object like a shoe, like a high heel shoe,
7:42
Speaker 1: or something that excites you sexually. Whereas if you say, like, oh,
7:46
Speaker 1: I've got a foot fetish, that's actually called partialism. Yes,
7:50
Speaker 1: that's right, And it could it could be a foot fetish,
7:53
Speaker 1: it could be a breast fetish, it could be a
7:55
Speaker 1: butt fetish whatever. But I think with partialism, it's specifically
7:58
Speaker 1: part of the human body, right right, Okay, But the
8:01
Speaker 1: other stuff, it's like a non human object, like you said,
8:03
Speaker 1: a shoe or something you know, oh, I don't know,
8:06
Speaker 1: like a nice candlestand or smoking jacket and slippers. That's right.
8:11
Speaker 1: A candlestand what are they called a candlestick? Candlestick? But
8:16
Speaker 1: what used to murder people? I forgot the candlestick. Uh.
8:20
Speaker 1: There is fraderism. That is when you know subway creeps
8:25
Speaker 1: rubbing up against your non consenting obviously again yes, non consenting. Uh.
8:31
Speaker 1: There is S and M so sexual sadism and sexual masochism.
8:36
Speaker 1: So do you know the difference. I'm sure you do. Sure.
8:38
Speaker 1: Masochism is self harm, self abuse, or or enjoying being
8:43
Speaker 1: abused or humiliated. Masochism is or sadism is inflicting out
8:48
Speaker 1: on somebody else. Correct, You're doing really well, Thank you.
8:52
Speaker 1: We should turn this into an internet quiz. Uh. Pedophilia,
8:57
Speaker 1: which everyone knows what that is rible. It is terrible,
9:01
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot more to unpack with that.
9:04
Speaker 1: So much so I think that that one deserves its
9:06
Speaker 1: own episode, Oh for sure. Uh. And those are the
9:09
Speaker 1: most common. Less common are somnophilia, that is, fondling a
9:12
Speaker 1: person who is a sleeper unconscious. I would guess that's
9:15
Speaker 1: also unconsenting to. Uh. Yeah, I wonder, although imagine you
9:19
Speaker 1: could act that out in a consenting way. I wonder, well, yeah,
9:23
Speaker 1: and I wonder if also that's it like an introductory
9:25
Speaker 1: level beginner's class for necrophilia, because like the lightest form
9:30
Speaker 1: of necrophilia is the other person pretending they're dead. Al right,
9:33
Speaker 1: So necrophilia one on one, that's another one that deserves
9:37
Speaker 1: its own episode. Yeah for sure, Um, and I know
9:40
Speaker 1: which other one you're gonna pick? Two? Uh, there's telephone scatalogia, yes,
9:45
Speaker 1: prank calls, but obscene variety like Philip Seymour Hoffman and happiness, right,
9:51
Speaker 1: not the pursuit of happiness. Different altogether, really different, like
9:58
Speaker 1: the opposite of each other. Uh. There's copperophilia, you know,
10:04
Speaker 1: that's um an obsession with poop, maybe being pooped on, sure,
10:09
Speaker 1: just poop in general turns you on eurrophilia, that's obvious, right,
10:13
Speaker 1: And then zoophilia, yes, man, which is you might think like, wow,
10:19
Speaker 1: that's that's gross. The person is engaging in acts of
10:22
Speaker 1: best reality. That's the new name for best reality is zoophilia.
10:25
Speaker 1: But one thing that a lot of people overlook UM,
10:28
Speaker 1: or at least I did until I saw the documentary Zoo,
10:32
Speaker 1: was that it's a It also involves non consenting um
10:36
Speaker 1: partners or other people, but not a person, an animal.
10:39
Speaker 1: The animal can't consent to that. Um, And so there's
10:43
Speaker 1: it's a basically a form of rape, but it's animal rape. Yeah.
10:47
Speaker 1: I never saw that documentary. Man, I know it's been
10:51
Speaker 1: many years you've been you've been wearing that T shirt
10:53
Speaker 1: every day. Yeah, the I heart Zoo, Yeah I want Zoo.
11:00
Speaker 1: And all I got was this lousy teacher. Right. But
11:02
Speaker 1: it's like I want to recommend it, but at the
11:04
Speaker 1: same time, I also want to be like stay away,
11:06
Speaker 1: you know, like you're you're going to change in some ways,
11:09
Speaker 1: some of which you might not be fully okay with,
11:12
Speaker 1: you know. So it's a tough one. But as far
11:14
Speaker 1: as documentary filmmaking goes, it's about as close to a
11:17
Speaker 1: masterpieces there is sold. Although it did get a lot
11:22
Speaker 1: of flak chuck for um, a lot of recreation. If
11:27
Speaker 1: I remember correctly, I think the whole thing might have
11:29
Speaker 1: been voiceover and recreations. How like specific do they get
11:34
Speaker 1: with those recreas? Very like, um, like it's just slightly
11:38
Speaker 1: out of focus kind of stuff. Interesting. Yeah, all right,
11:42
Speaker 1: now they think about it, I'm not sure how they
11:44
Speaker 1: did that. So the important thing to remember about these
11:48
Speaker 1: paraphilias and this is, um, we're not talking about the
11:52
Speaker 1: disorder part. But it's important to what language people use,
11:56
Speaker 1: because for many, many years, and still in many circles, um,
12:01
Speaker 1: things like homosexuality have even been considered you know, a perversion.
12:06
Speaker 1: So things have evolved over time, but depending on who
12:10
Speaker 1: you are and where you are in the country, even
12:12
Speaker 1: and what your political affiliation might be, there still might
12:16
Speaker 1: be a lot of um damning language us for what
12:20
Speaker 1: some people consider consider immoral. Yeah, and like you kind
12:24
Speaker 1: of hit it on the head, um, homosexuality was considered
12:27
Speaker 1: a disorder until that, I think late seventies as far
12:31
Speaker 1: as the psychology community was was concerned. And things change,
12:37
Speaker 1: but it all basically boils down to morality so much
12:40
Speaker 1: so that it's like, you know, the law. The fact
12:45
Speaker 1: that there have been laws against certain sexual acts and
12:49
Speaker 1: that those have changed and evolve over time really kind
12:51
Speaker 1: of underscores this idea that you know, society says, this
12:55
Speaker 1: is not okay because we think it's weird, um, or
12:59
Speaker 1: this is not okay because you're harming somebody else, um.
13:04
Speaker 1: But but the fact that it changes or evolves really
13:06
Speaker 1: kind of shows that that in a lot of circumstances,
13:11
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the kind of paraphilia where
13:14
Speaker 1: you're just involving yourself and you're you're not harmed by
13:18
Speaker 1: it in any way, it's not causing distress. That there's
13:21
Speaker 1: really little reason whatsoever for anybody to be um legislating
13:26
Speaker 1: or moralizing about that because it doesn't really have anything
13:30
Speaker 1: to do with anybody else, right, so they're for sure
13:34
Speaker 1: legal acts are illegal acts. And thus I guess legal
13:37
Speaker 1: acts in terms of paraphilia. Uh, there are problematic behaviors too,
13:44
Speaker 1: and that is um, like you mentioned, I don't know
13:47
Speaker 1: if you mentioned masturbation. I didn't because I don't know that.
13:51
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there is a paraphilia where all
13:54
Speaker 1: you want to do is masturbate, but that seems more like, um,
13:58
Speaker 1: I don't know, it just doesn't seem like a paraphiles me.
14:00
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, though. Well. The whole idea of
14:03
Speaker 1: problematic though, is like if you're so consumed by masturbation
14:05
Speaker 1: that you can't, like you can't go to work, or
14:08
Speaker 1: you leave work so often that you miss meetings, and
14:11
Speaker 1: you know, Basically, I think the point is what could
14:14
Speaker 1: be a harmless behavior can be problematic if it's all
14:18
Speaker 1: consuming and like affects your job or your home life
14:20
Speaker 1: or your social life right or there, or it's like
14:24
Speaker 1: causing you to be arrested so you miss work the
14:27
Speaker 1: next day. There's this guy who, um, there's actually multiple people,
14:30
Speaker 1: but one man was arrested. Um. I guess making love
14:35
Speaker 1: to a car is how you would put it, which
14:37
Speaker 1: is mchennophilia mechanophilia. Interesting. Um. And there's another guy who
14:41
Speaker 1: claims to have made love to over a thousand cars
14:45
Speaker 1: in his lifetime, and as far as I know, he's
14:48
Speaker 1: never been arrested, and he seems to be totally great
14:51
Speaker 1: with the idea. He said that his peak sexual experience
14:54
Speaker 1: was a wolf. I was gonna say with like a
14:56
Speaker 1: fifty seven Chevy. No, he has, he has, I don't
15:01
Speaker 1: know how else to put it. Made love to Herbie
15:04
Speaker 1: before Herbie the Beatle, like the real thing, or he
15:06
Speaker 1: had it recreated as far as I know, the real thing.
15:09
Speaker 1: But air Wolf, Chuck, air Wolf, he got with air Wolf.
15:13
Speaker 1: That the plane, the helicopter, the helicopter Okay, I couldn't remember, Yeah,
15:17
Speaker 1: the jam Michael Vincent helicopter from the TV show. But
15:20
Speaker 1: this guy, that guy, he seems to be totally fine
15:23
Speaker 1: with it because he, you know, submits to interviews and
15:26
Speaker 1: poses for photos that show up in the paper from
15:29
Speaker 1: time to time. But I don't think he's ever been arrested,
15:31
Speaker 1: so his would just be a paraphelia the guy who
15:34
Speaker 1: got arrested. His would be a paraphilic disorder as far
15:38
Speaker 1: as the D S M. Five is concerned. But it
15:40
Speaker 1: sounds to me like this guy just didn't get caught
15:42
Speaker 1: because you can't make love to air Wolf and Herbie legally.
15:46
Speaker 1: I guess you can't, You're right, because it got to
15:47
Speaker 1: be in like a museum or something. Right, he's dancing
15:50
Speaker 1: along the line unless he has a lot of money
15:52
Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, I'll pay you, you know, a
15:54
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to look the other way while I get
15:56
Speaker 1: an hour with air Wolf, or he's the night watchman
15:59
Speaker 1: at the Hollywood Car and Air Space Museum. But even
16:03
Speaker 1: that that would be technically illegal, or at least he
16:06
Speaker 1: could get fired for that, So that would be a
16:08
Speaker 1: paraphilic disorder. Then this is all very interesting stuff, it
16:12
Speaker 1: really is. But also I want to point this out,
16:15
Speaker 1: like if you're starting to feel a little bit confused
16:17
Speaker 1: and it sounds like we're just kind of throwing stuff
16:19
Speaker 1: at the wall, welcome to the world of studying paraphilias
16:24
Speaker 1: from in the field of psychology. Yeah, absolutely right. Should
16:28
Speaker 1: we take a break, Yeah, all right, let's do that
16:30
Speaker 1: and we'll come back and uh never talk about air
16:33
Speaker 1: wolf again. Okay, So we're back and we're more confused
16:56
Speaker 1: than ever I thought we started out. Really well, just
17:00
Speaker 1: send it into genuine confusion, that's right, which is very
17:04
Speaker 1: easy to do because, like we said from the get go,
17:07
Speaker 1: the definitions change so often in what is acceptable or
17:11
Speaker 1: not acceptable, and immoral or not immoral. It is all
17:14
Speaker 1: a matter of opinion, So it's kind of hard to
17:17
Speaker 1: dive into this stuff. It really is so um there.
17:20
Speaker 1: That's why, over time the definition of paraphilia is kind
17:24
Speaker 1: of expanded and contracted. UM. And the ones that tend
17:29
Speaker 1: to be called out in the d s M, which
17:33
Speaker 1: we'll get to in a minute, some of them make
17:35
Speaker 1: total sense, like pedophilia being in there. That's like something
17:38
Speaker 1: that that psychology should take a keen interest in addressing. Um.
17:43
Speaker 1: Other ones don't make any sense, like transvestism um, cross dressing,
17:48
Speaker 1: where like if you are into wearing women's clothes and
17:52
Speaker 1: you're a man, and that is how you achieve sexual arousal.
17:57
Speaker 1: There's no problem with that, and it shouldn't it shouldn't
17:59
Speaker 1: be psychologized. But then the field of psychology would say, well, whoa, whoa.
18:04
Speaker 1: There are people who are into cross stressing and they
18:08
Speaker 1: can achieve sexual arousal without it, but they find this
18:11
Speaker 1: very distressing. It's it's um running up against society's expectations
18:15
Speaker 1: of what it means to be a man. They are
18:17
Speaker 1: having trouble rectifying that. So we need to play that
18:20
Speaker 1: role too. So over time, as we were saying, paraphelia's
18:23
Speaker 1: have been distinguished, most recently, I think in two thirteen
18:26
Speaker 1: with the d s M five between just an atypical
18:30
Speaker 1: sexual interest in an atypical sexual interest that causes distress
18:33
Speaker 1: in the person or involves non consenting people. That's right. Uh.
18:38
Speaker 1: But over the years, a lot of these terms have
18:40
Speaker 1: changed in their meaning. Up until geez, up until century three,
18:47
Speaker 1: people are using words like sodomite or sodomizer, even though
18:52
Speaker 1: it sounds like something from the Bible, which it is.
18:55
Speaker 1: Um and anti sodomy laws were on the books until
18:58
Speaker 1: Lawrence v. Texas Supreme Court said that these laws are
19:02
Speaker 1: not constitutional. Um. That was an interesting case. There was
19:06
Speaker 1: a weapon's disturbance reported at a private residence. Houston police
19:11
Speaker 1: were called. They entered the apartment of John Lawrence and
19:15
Speaker 1: saw him with another adult man engaging in a private
19:19
Speaker 1: and consexual con sexual Well, you just killed two birds
19:24
Speaker 1: right there. That's right, consentual sex act. And they were arrested,
19:29
Speaker 1: uh for deviant sexual intercourse and violation of Texas statute
19:35
Speaker 1: that said basically, two people of the same sex can
19:37
Speaker 1: engage in a certain intimate sexual conduct. It was held
19:41
Speaker 1: up by the state Court of Appeals, but then eventually
19:45
Speaker 1: overturned six three by the U. S. Supreme Court, and
19:49
Speaker 1: that was they were arrested in two thousand and the
19:52
Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled in two thousand three. And when they
19:56
Speaker 1: ruled in two thousand three against Texas, they said, youth
20:00
Speaker 1: thirteen other states that have sodomy books laws on the books,
20:04
Speaker 1: they're they're null and void. Now you just cannot You
20:07
Speaker 1: cannot outlaw people's consensual sexual behavior in the privacy of
20:12
Speaker 1: their own homes. You just can't do it. Well, yeah,
20:14
Speaker 1: but the way they did it was they said it
20:17
Speaker 1: violates their due process clause, the due process clause of
20:20
Speaker 1: the Constitution. Oh, how so, Well, I mean, if they're
20:26
Speaker 1: behind closed doors in private, engaging in a practice, um,
20:31
Speaker 1: then to arrest them for doing something is a violation
20:34
Speaker 1: of their due process. Like you know what I mean,
20:37
Speaker 1: I I don't. To me, it's more just like it
20:40
Speaker 1: kind of follows in that great American tradition of if
20:43
Speaker 1: you're not hurting yourself or other people, what you do
20:46
Speaker 1: behind your own your own closed doors is fine with
20:49
Speaker 1: everybody else, we'll just look the other way. Well, that
20:52
Speaker 1: is true, but they have to frame it, I think
20:54
Speaker 1: under the guise of the Constitution. Yeah, but I just
20:57
Speaker 1: don't see how that how that has to do with
20:59
Speaker 1: do proces this? Because the due process being like you are,
21:02
Speaker 1: you're you have the right to be defended by a
21:05
Speaker 1: competent attorney and in a court of law in front
21:08
Speaker 1: of a jury of your peers. I don't know. I mean,
21:11
Speaker 1: Anthony Kennedy wrote, their right to liberty under the due
21:13
Speaker 1: process clause gives them the full right to engage in
21:16
Speaker 1: their conduct without intervention of the government. Well, I mean,
21:21
Speaker 1: I agree with Kennedy, I just don't quite understand where
21:23
Speaker 1: he's coming from. No, I hear you. Maybe one of
21:25
Speaker 1: our wonderful listeners will write in and say I'm a
21:28
Speaker 1: constitutional law professor, and here's what he meant. Maybe so,
21:32
Speaker 1: so it's a big deal. Like you were saying that
21:34
Speaker 1: we started calling paraphilias paraphiles rather than sodomy laws because
21:40
Speaker 1: it's it's it's basically psychology saying thanks a lot for
21:43
Speaker 1: for this religion. We're going to take the reins from
21:47
Speaker 1: here and we're going to take it out of you know,
21:49
Speaker 1: the realm of just religious moralization and put it into
21:52
Speaker 1: scientific study. And that was a big, big transition. Um.
21:56
Speaker 1: We said earlier that that laws against certain sexual acts
22:00
Speaker 1: have been on the books for thousands of years now.
22:04
Speaker 1: Some of the earliest they found were from um A
22:07
Speaker 1: thousand b c. Three thousand years ago in Assyria, the
22:11
Speaker 1: Roman republic Um. And that was just kind of how
22:14
Speaker 1: it stood. The Bible legislated against things like b clity, homosexuality, adultery.
22:21
Speaker 1: There was there's just always been kind of moral codes
22:24
Speaker 1: and consequences that society said, if you break this moral
22:28
Speaker 1: code as far as sex is concerned, we're going to
22:30
Speaker 1: bury you up to your neck and stone you to
22:32
Speaker 1: death or something like that. Right, But then in the
22:35
Speaker 1: twentieth century, I think slightly before the twentieth century as
22:39
Speaker 1: psychology started develop one of the first things that said
22:42
Speaker 1: is like, this is right up our alley, We're gonna
22:44
Speaker 1: take this over. And in nineteen o four in Austrian
22:47
Speaker 1: scientists named Friedrich Solomon Krauss uh coined the term paraphilias
22:54
Speaker 1: and it started to kind of transition into the scientific study. Yeah,
22:58
Speaker 1: and there's another guy named John on Money or Money.
23:02
Speaker 1: I want to say money, because if he's a sexologist
23:04
Speaker 1: named John Money that it doesn't get any better than that. Uh.
23:08
Speaker 1: And apparently he's he's a really prominent researcher of paraphilia
23:11
Speaker 1: and he kind of brought it into the forefront as
23:13
Speaker 1: far as using that word. Yeah, And I mean, just
23:16
Speaker 1: because you know, Friedrich Solomon Krauss coined it in nineteen
23:20
Speaker 1: o four doesn't mean that psychology adopted it. And it
23:24
Speaker 1: wasn't until nineteen eighty that the d s M started
23:27
Speaker 1: using paraphilia in place of sexual deviance night. Yeah, so
23:33
Speaker 1: they've got at catching up to do, and what they're
23:35
Speaker 1: involved in right now is trying to figure out what
23:38
Speaker 1: the heck is going on and exactly where the boundaries
23:41
Speaker 1: are between what they're supposed to be studying and what
23:44
Speaker 1: they what's none of their business really. Yeah, And there's
23:47
Speaker 1: a couple of um, a couple of psychological manuals that
23:51
Speaker 1: are often looked to. And we talked a lot about
23:54
Speaker 1: on the show about the d s M, the Diagnostic
23:57
Speaker 1: and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. We haven't talked as
24:00
Speaker 1: much about the International Statistical Classification of Diseases. There's a
24:05
Speaker 1: good reason for that, chuck, because neither one of us
24:09
Speaker 1: knew it existed. I didn't know it existed. And apparently
24:12
Speaker 1: here in the States, people default to the d s
24:14
Speaker 1: M a lot, which is why we you know, know
24:17
Speaker 1: more much more about it obviously. Uh. The i c
24:20
Speaker 1: D is published by the WHO, the World Health Organization UM,
24:24
Speaker 1: but they use uh, they don't offer a definition, even
24:28
Speaker 1: a blanket definition of paraphilia. So the d s M
24:32
Speaker 1: is sort of the default. And it's it's important that
24:35
Speaker 1: it's uh that it's used, because the d s M
24:38
Speaker 1: is used. I mean, this can determine whether or not
24:41
Speaker 1: you get custody of your kids or like they're real world,
24:44
Speaker 1: real world ramifications for sure, for um, having a paraphilia
24:50
Speaker 1: and and do you say having a paraphilia or engaging
24:53
Speaker 1: in paraphilic acts. Probably both. But it's you know, it's
24:57
Speaker 1: not just like we want to label people like there
25:00
Speaker 1: are consequences whether illegal or not illegal. You know, someone
25:04
Speaker 1: could go into divorce court and say, you know what,
25:07
Speaker 1: my husband, um can only achieve orgasm in a in
25:10
Speaker 1: a high heel stiletto heal, and a judge might think
25:14
Speaker 1: that's perverse and deny custody. Right. Yeah, so that I
25:18
Speaker 1: mean that's a big deal because if you if you
25:20
Speaker 1: think about it, like psychology isn't getting together and saying
25:22
Speaker 1: we're going to create this book that outlines what's normal
25:25
Speaker 1: and acceptable for human beings, and you guys go use
25:29
Speaker 1: it to throw somebody in jail. That's not the point.
25:31
Speaker 1: They're doing it to try to help people who need help, right,
25:35
Speaker 1: But they that doesn't mean that other people aren't coming
25:38
Speaker 1: along and figuring out how to use that to put
25:40
Speaker 1: other people in jail or gain custody of their children.
25:43
Speaker 1: I mean, there's really no faster way to undermine someone's
25:46
Speaker 1: credibility or just cast aspersions on them. Um is it
25:50
Speaker 1: aspersions or dispersions? Dispersions? I think cast dispersions on them
25:55
Speaker 1: then to frame them as a sex pervert in court
25:58
Speaker 1: when you're talking about custody of children. Right, that's it.
26:02
Speaker 1: So psychology has figured out, or psychiatry has figured out
26:05
Speaker 1: in the last few years, like it just doesn't operate
26:08
Speaker 1: in a vacuum, and it has to really pay attention
26:11
Speaker 1: to what it publishes in this Bible of normalcy that
26:15
Speaker 1: is the d s M. And they're getting better at it,
26:18
Speaker 1: but they still have a long ways to go, but
26:20
Speaker 1: at least they're awake to this idea that no, no, no,
26:22
Speaker 1: this stuff we say is normal. We have to we
26:25
Speaker 1: have to we have to word it just so because
26:27
Speaker 1: if we do it wrong, people are going to go
26:29
Speaker 1: to prison for a very long time, especially when they
26:32
Speaker 1: might not should be in prison necessarily. Yeah, especially when
26:35
Speaker 1: they use words like unusual and bizarre in official definitions
26:40
Speaker 1: because that's so subjective. Um. And again it's it's not
26:45
Speaker 1: a legal manual, so it's it's very tricky territory. But
26:48
Speaker 1: the words are really really important. So they started out
26:52
Speaker 1: they were um, I think in the first d s M,
26:54
Speaker 1: paraphelia was called sexual deviance and the definition was just
26:57
Speaker 1: forget about it, and then it evolved all they got
27:00
Speaker 1: better from there until the d s M three, where
27:04
Speaker 1: they said that a paraphilia. Um said that bizarre imagery
27:09
Speaker 1: or acts were necessary for sexual excitement, and that these
27:13
Speaker 1: imagery and acts were persistent, involuntary, repetitive, and involved. And
27:17
Speaker 1: this is this is a big deal because what's just
27:20
Speaker 1: gone is um kind of the persistence or the intensity
27:25
Speaker 1: of it. And then now they're kind of getting into
27:27
Speaker 1: the meat of what makes a paraphila paraphilia It involves
27:30
Speaker 1: a preference for the use of a non human object,
27:33
Speaker 1: repetitive repetitive sexual activity with humans involving real or stimulated
27:38
Speaker 1: suffering or humiliation, or repetitive sexual activity with non consending partners.
27:45
Speaker 1: Subway creeps, right or um, you know pedophiles or um, yeah,
27:51
Speaker 1: f subway creeps. So do you've you've you've They really
27:55
Speaker 1: kind of hit it on the head. I think with
27:57
Speaker 1: the D s M three are if you ask me,
27:59
Speaker 1: like they said, here are some things that are you know,
28:02
Speaker 1: we consider atypical, and that some and that here's how
28:05
Speaker 1: they can be problematic. Yeah, I think calling it unusual
28:09
Speaker 1: and bizarre was sort of the problem with n D
28:12
Speaker 1: s M three, right, um, And is that not in
28:15
Speaker 1: four and five? So four definitely had a different definition
28:19
Speaker 1: that we're still talking about Led Zeppelin albums. Yeah, exactly
28:22
Speaker 1: that one, said Zoe. So um it said recurrent intense,
28:27
Speaker 1: sexually arousing fantasies, sexual or just or behaviors generally involving
28:32
Speaker 1: non human objects, the suffering or humiliation of oneself or
28:35
Speaker 1: one's partner. And so there's a real preoccupation with b
28:39
Speaker 1: DSM among psychiatrists. Don't ever let a psychiatrist tell you otherwise,
28:43
Speaker 1: because they're lying to your face. And then the third
28:46
Speaker 1: one is children or other non consenting persons that occur
28:50
Speaker 1: over a period of at least six months. So they
28:52
Speaker 1: dropped unusual and bizarre. Then they did which rightfully. So
28:56
Speaker 1: they also called out children specifically, I think, um kind
29:00
Speaker 1: to add a little bit of legality to the whole
29:02
Speaker 1: thing and to kind of say like, this is a separate,
29:04
Speaker 1: special case, you know, this is beyond just non consenting.
29:09
Speaker 1: And then they added that it has to persist for
29:11
Speaker 1: at least six months. Yeah, that's interesting, because up to
29:14
Speaker 1: six months it's just a bad, a bad streak you're on.
29:17
Speaker 1: I guess so um I did everywhere I look though
29:19
Speaker 1: in other places too, outside the d s M. I
29:21
Speaker 1: did see where these um uh predilections is that the
29:26
Speaker 1: right word are basically permanent, so it's not like it changes.
29:31
Speaker 1: So if you've got a thing for the high heel shoe, uh,
29:34
Speaker 1: you're probably always going to have a thing for the
29:36
Speaker 1: high heel shoe. And in the same way, if you
29:38
Speaker 1: have a thing for children, you're probably always going to
29:40
Speaker 1: have a thing for children, which is a big problem.
29:43
Speaker 1: And I was joking by the way that there's a
29:45
Speaker 1: you know, anything up to six months is just a
29:48
Speaker 1: bad streak, especially when you're involved with uh, if you
29:51
Speaker 1: have a paraphilia that involves a non consenting person. Yeah,
29:55
Speaker 1: but I wonder why they said that for six months,
29:57
Speaker 1: I mean just a I don't know, it seems like
30:00
Speaker 1: it that may maybe should just be for any amount
30:03
Speaker 1: of time. Yeah, I think I think they are. I
30:06
Speaker 1: think they're kind of moving into the right direction. Where
30:09
Speaker 1: So in the d s M five it's unclear whether
30:12
Speaker 1: the d s M five actually changed the definition or not.
30:15
Speaker 1: This article says that it stayed the same. But what
30:18
Speaker 1: they did was they separated them out and said, Okay, look,
30:21
Speaker 1: we recognize that there are they're a typical sexual um
30:27
Speaker 1: proclivities that don't harm anybody. They're just not typical, you know,
30:32
Speaker 1: like not everybody um has a thing for women's high
30:36
Speaker 1: heeled shoe or the tail pipe of air Wolf for something.
30:38
Speaker 1: You know, like not everyone does. But as long as
30:42
Speaker 1: you're not harming anybody, and it's not having a negative
30:46
Speaker 1: effect on your life and you're not distressed by it,
30:49
Speaker 1: if you're out there living your best life, you know,
30:52
Speaker 1: wearing women's high heeled shoes around your house and just
30:55
Speaker 1: loving every minute of it, like, go with God, that's great.
30:58
Speaker 1: You know, there's that's fine. That's that's that's different. We're
31:02
Speaker 1: just going to call it a paraphilia. Paraphilic disorder is
31:06
Speaker 1: where it does cause the stress or it does involve
31:08
Speaker 1: somebody else who doesn't want to be involved. And now
31:12
Speaker 1: now this is what we should be paying attention to.
31:14
Speaker 1: And then so people say, okay, that's great psychology, you're
31:17
Speaker 1: going in the right direction here, but just get paraphilias
31:20
Speaker 1: out of there entirely, like, just just don't even include those,
31:24
Speaker 1: because what they warn against is the fact that it's
31:28
Speaker 1: in this d s M, this Bible of normalcy. The
31:32
Speaker 1: very fact that it's in there suggests that there's something
31:35
Speaker 1: weird about it and abnormal about it. Psychia psychiatry said
31:38
Speaker 1: as much by including it, it's like a mental disorder
31:41
Speaker 1: of some kind. Right, and so even if you don't
31:44
Speaker 1: fit the criteria for a disorder diagnosis a paraphilic disorder,
31:50
Speaker 1: if you say where women choose around, even if you're
31:53
Speaker 1: enjoying it, you still are in the the the Bible
31:57
Speaker 1: of normalcy called out as a weirdo, and then that
32:00
Speaker 1: kind of thing can be used against you in like
32:02
Speaker 1: a custody hearing when it really shouldn't be. You're probably
32:06
Speaker 1: not going to be wearing your high heels in front
32:08
Speaker 1: of your kids because you're probably involved in sexy time.
32:11
Speaker 1: And if you are doing that in front of your kids,
32:13
Speaker 1: you've got a whole other disorder that needs to be
32:16
Speaker 1: addressed that really has little then nothing to do with
32:19
Speaker 1: high heels. That's right. So this is where this is
32:22
Speaker 1: the hornets nest that is currently paraphilias and the d
32:27
Speaker 1: s M and psychiatry in general. Yeah, for sure, Um,
32:30
Speaker 1: should we take another break? Sure? Man, all right, let's
32:33
Speaker 1: take a break, and we're gonna talk about why humans
32:36
Speaker 1: have paraphilias to begin with, right for this stop stop
32:59
Speaker 1: all right. So we're talking a lot about a lot
33:02
Speaker 1: of interesting things. Some people might think this is pretty
33:05
Speaker 1: out there that someone would make love to a car. Sure, maybe,
33:09
Speaker 1: but I'll bet if you really got to know your neighbor,
33:11
Speaker 1: you'd be pretty surprised. Yeah, who was it to sing
33:14
Speaker 1: that song? No one knows what goes on behind closed doors?
33:18
Speaker 1: I think you're thinking of that song about um. Nobody
33:21
Speaker 1: knows what it's like to be the bad man behind
33:23
Speaker 1: blue eyes? That one. That's the Who, that's the World
33:26
Speaker 1: Health Organization, that's John Fogerty. What. I'm pretty sure that's
33:31
Speaker 1: John Fogertty behind blue Eyes. I'll give you Bob seekers a.
33:36
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the Who. It's on quadrupin. All right, So
33:43
Speaker 1: chop Fogty, what song were you talking about? What folkty song?
33:46
Speaker 1: Did you mean? Oh? I didn't mean I'm so mad
33:50
Speaker 1: at you right now? So? Uh where where was I even? Okay,
33:54
Speaker 1: here's the deal. Why do we have paraphilias? You hear
33:56
Speaker 1: these things. It might sound very unusual to you, but
33:59
Speaker 1: there are still people that you know, they didn't wake
34:01
Speaker 1: up one day and say, you know what, I'm gonna try.
34:04
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna try making up to a car for kicks,
34:07
Speaker 1: Like this is something that is in someone's brain. Um,
34:11
Speaker 1: some might argue in their heart, depending on how you
34:14
Speaker 1: feel about stuff like that. Uh, it's not some some
34:18
Speaker 1: choice that someone is making just to be different. Uh.
34:22
Speaker 1: They found that it's probably genetic and probably caused by
34:26
Speaker 1: environmental factors, some mixture of both. They can't point to
34:30
Speaker 1: some gene and say, hey, here's the gene that causes
34:33
Speaker 1: an obsession with an object. But um, and they can't
34:38
Speaker 1: say for sure what behaviors like environmental factors and behaviors
34:42
Speaker 1: at home might lead to it, or how much you know?
34:46
Speaker 1: I know for years and still, like Freudian psychologists are
34:50
Speaker 1: bounded determined to say that, you know, if your mom
34:52
Speaker 1: spanked you, then you're gonna want to be spanked sexually
34:55
Speaker 1: later in life by a woman you hired who looks
34:58
Speaker 1: just like your mom. Right, But that is very, very reductive.
35:02
Speaker 1: And although that you know things that happen in your
35:05
Speaker 1: childhood may play out later on, you can't always say
35:08
Speaker 1: exactly how. Yeah, so you might ask, well, then what
35:12
Speaker 1: the psychology what? What? What? What can psychology explain? Nothing? Basically,
35:18
Speaker 1: nothing about paraphilias is understood how they develop, and there's
35:22
Speaker 1: so many competing voices like you said, not really one
35:26
Speaker 1: of them has been proven wrong. They've all kind of
35:30
Speaker 1: got their support and their detractors and their different schools
35:33
Speaker 1: of thought, which is a really it's a head scratcher
35:36
Speaker 1: in this day and age and nearly two thousand and
35:39
Speaker 1: twenty that we have virtually no idea how paraphilias form, Like,
35:44
Speaker 1: like you said, are they genetic? Who knows, Maybe maybe
35:48
Speaker 1: we will find a gene one day. But what about
35:50
Speaker 1: what about nurture? I mean, like we all developed sexually
35:54
Speaker 1: at a certain rate and at a certain time and
35:56
Speaker 1: under certain circumstances. So if you know, you happen to
36:00
Speaker 1: get a late spanking right around the time that you're
36:04
Speaker 1: you're becoming uh pubescent, maybe you will kind of get
36:09
Speaker 1: a little turned on by spanking. Or if you look
36:11
Speaker 1: at a shoe store, you know, right right sure yeah?
36:14
Speaker 1: Or um, you know, if you're if you were raised
36:16
Speaker 1: in a very sexually repressive environment, well maybe that sexuality
36:20
Speaker 1: has to come out somewhere and it's going to come
36:22
Speaker 1: out onto mom's shoes or something like that. You know,
36:25
Speaker 1: like it's going to find a way, just like you know,
36:28
Speaker 1: the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park did, so will budding sexuality
36:32
Speaker 1: and a young kid, it's going to find it's its
36:34
Speaker 1: way out, and then maybe that's where parapheles come from.
36:37
Speaker 1: They really have no idea, but they have done studies
36:41
Speaker 1: that that actually don't clear anything up at all. Yeah,
36:44
Speaker 1: the studies are problematic for a couple of reasons. One
36:47
Speaker 1: is because a lot of times their studies conducted on
36:51
Speaker 1: criminal behaviors. Almost all of it is because they're the
36:55
Speaker 1: ones that are in jail, and they're the ones easiest
36:57
Speaker 1: to study. And it's hard to get uh, someone that's
37:01
Speaker 1: not a criminal, just in regular society to step forward
37:04
Speaker 1: and take a survey and be super honest about something
37:08
Speaker 1: that maybe their deepest, darkest secret. So it's really hard
37:11
Speaker 1: and problematic too to study. And um, they have found
37:15
Speaker 1: a few things as far as the genetic component goes.
37:19
Speaker 1: There was one study of five families where they had
37:22
Speaker 1: confirmed pedophiles and they found a lot of evidence that
37:26
Speaker 1: pedophilia can be multi generational in some families and then
37:31
Speaker 1: across single generations and others like, um, three brothers are
37:36
Speaker 1: all pedophiles and single family and so you would say, well,
37:39
Speaker 1: you know, obviously there's a genetic basis, but a behaviorist
37:43
Speaker 1: would say, well, yeah, well maybe that you know, it's
37:46
Speaker 1: it's spans multiple generations because it was a learned behavior
37:50
Speaker 1: and it was carried on in that way, So it's
37:52
Speaker 1: not it doesn't clear up anything whatsoever. Uh. They usually
37:55
Speaker 1: find paraphilias between uh men ages of fifty, although it
38:01
Speaker 1: can vary wildly, of course, And there are other reasons
38:04
Speaker 1: that people put forward that maybe they've generally found them
38:07
Speaker 1: in men and not women. Um, how we study things
38:10
Speaker 1: with a male slant could be one. Uh, the fact
38:12
Speaker 1: that men may be more apt to act out, maybe
38:16
Speaker 1: in a violent way if that's their paraphilia, or brazen
38:20
Speaker 1: enough to get on the subway and do something like that.
38:22
Speaker 1: It's also way more socially acceptable for say, an exhibitionist
38:26
Speaker 1: woman to get into film and be able to to
38:31
Speaker 1: fulfill her exhibitionism that way, whereas we don't usually film
38:35
Speaker 1: naked men very often, so the exhibitionist man needs to
38:39
Speaker 1: just kind of walk around town donald ducking porky pigging it.
38:43
Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I'm sure that the Disney Corporation
38:47
Speaker 1: is happy with either one of the definitions. Yeah or yeah,
38:50
Speaker 1: as Warner Brothers in Disney, they're both mad. Yeah, they
38:54
Speaker 1: did find in that same study some co morbidities with
38:57
Speaker 1: low intelligence, and interestingly deafness and blindness is interesting. And
39:02
Speaker 1: then some other studies have found some predominance in left
39:06
Speaker 1: handed people. Yeah, again, none of that means anything at
39:10
Speaker 1: this point. It's just just just here's the data point
39:13
Speaker 1: I turned up from five families. It's so, you know,
39:16
Speaker 1: it's it's not very good study, right. That's sexologist John
39:20
Speaker 1: money he Um he wrote in the eighties. He wrote
39:24
Speaker 1: a book called Love Maps and I think six that
39:26
Speaker 1: was really authoritative on UM paraphilias. And his thing was that,
39:33
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's learned behavior that comes at a
39:36
Speaker 1: certain point, and our love map, which combines like love
39:41
Speaker 1: and lust in in normal ways, gets vandalized in some
39:46
Speaker 1: way from some traumatic experience or it could also be
39:50
Speaker 1: in some fun experience. But um, the introduction of this
39:54
Speaker 1: this additional data point in the development of this love
39:59
Speaker 1: map UM creates creates a paraphilia that has to be
40:04
Speaker 1: UM I guess corrected through something like cognitive behavioral therapy.
40:10
Speaker 1: Sometimes drugs are used SSR, eyes are used, sometimes UM,
40:16
Speaker 1: and then in certain cases they'll use things like UM
40:20
Speaker 1: chemical castration. Actually, yeah, we talked about that in a
40:24
Speaker 1: few episodes. I feel like, ah, yeah, I don't remember
40:28
Speaker 1: which ones, well, definitely the one with with what's his name?
40:32
Speaker 1: The Enigma Machine, Alan Turning with Alan Turing because he
40:35
Speaker 1: was chemically castrated. Did we do an episode on the
40:38
Speaker 1: Enigma Machine. No, but we talked about him, and I
40:41
Speaker 1: believe or was that just the TV show with the
40:44
Speaker 1: Turing test with caps? I don't remember. It's all such
40:48
Speaker 1: a fault right now. It really, UM here's something. If
40:51
Speaker 1: you ever hear someone in conversation say, you know, if
40:54
Speaker 1: you were sexually abused as a child, then statistically you're
40:56
Speaker 1: going to grow up and do that someone else. Not true?
41:00
Speaker 1: I saw both. Really, I saw that it is true,
41:03
Speaker 1: and I saw that was largely refuted. Now, yeah, I
41:06
Speaker 1: I saw something on I found a site called smart
41:09
Speaker 1: dot gov. It sounds made up, but it seems real.
41:13
Speaker 1: But it was about paraphilias from a UM criminal justice
41:16
Speaker 1: point of view, and it said outright that it's not
41:21
Speaker 1: a guarantee in any way, shape or form, but that
41:24
Speaker 1: people who um sexually abused children or are sexually abused
41:30
Speaker 1: as children are more likely to sexually abused children than
41:32
Speaker 1: people who weren't sexually abused as children. How interesting, Yeah,
41:36
Speaker 1: which is I mean that brings up a really important
41:38
Speaker 1: point here. Um, there's a big distinction between sexually abusing
41:43
Speaker 1: a child, raping a child, and being a pedophile. They're
41:48
Speaker 1: not necessarily one and the same. Well what in that Uh,
41:53
Speaker 1: A pedophile can be a pedophile and not act upon
41:55
Speaker 1: that instinct. That's one version. Another version is if you're
41:59
Speaker 1: a child apist, you might not really have much of
42:02
Speaker 1: a desire for children. You just had a desire to
42:06
Speaker 1: rape somebody and that child happened to be handy at
42:08
Speaker 1: the time. So there is there's in two different ways
42:12
Speaker 1: at least, there's a distinction between pedophilia and child rape.
42:16
Speaker 1: And this is where that whole legality thing kind of
42:18
Speaker 1: comes in, oh right, And that paraphilia is not a
42:22
Speaker 1: legal defense. So if you commit a sex crime, you
42:25
Speaker 1: can't go to court and say, I plead a paraphy paraphiliac. Yeah,
42:31
Speaker 1: which is kind of surprising because if you kill somebody
42:33
Speaker 1: and you go and say I, UM, I have been
42:37
Speaker 1: diagnosed with schizophrenia, they're probably not going to um give
42:42
Speaker 1: you the death sentence. Where if you are if you're
42:46
Speaker 1: diagnosed with a paraphilic disorder, they're going to totally set
42:50
Speaker 1: that aside in in considering you know, how you should
42:54
Speaker 1: be punished. What's weird, though, Chuck, is since the act
43:00
Speaker 1: actual opposite has been allowed to develop too. Where if
43:03
Speaker 1: they convict you of something as a sexual violent sexual
43:08
Speaker 1: sexually violent predator s VP. I believe it's what it's called, right,
43:14
Speaker 1: they can keep you in jail longer. They won't keep
43:18
Speaker 1: you in jail, but they'll say, um, this person shows
43:22
Speaker 1: that they have signs of being like, uh, they have
43:26
Speaker 1: a paraphilia toward child molestation. Uh there towards um pedophilia. Um.
43:34
Speaker 1: So they've served their sentence for attacking this child. But
43:38
Speaker 1: now under the law, we can actually commit them to
43:42
Speaker 1: uh like a mental asylum a hospital indefinitely to keep
43:49
Speaker 1: them from harming somebody else. So that's that's one way
43:53
Speaker 1: that that the the d s M can be used
43:56
Speaker 1: to keep people in in jail for crimes they even
43:59
Speaker 1: even commit. Did this is like the prevention of future crime,
44:02
Speaker 1: which as far as I know, is completely, um completely
44:06
Speaker 1: contravenes the spirit of the law in the United States. Right, Yeah,
44:10
Speaker 1: I mean that's a minority reports stuff, but that's what
44:13
Speaker 1: they've been doing using the d s M, and for
44:16
Speaker 1: a little while there they were able to do it
44:18
Speaker 1: because the d s M had the word or in
44:21
Speaker 1: the wrong place that allow that basically said you you
44:26
Speaker 1: qualify as the definition of somebody with a paraphilic disorder
44:30
Speaker 1: if you've committed committed a criminal act that has something
44:33
Speaker 1: to do with the paraphilia. UM. Now, it's that that's
44:37
Speaker 1: part of the criteria. It's not its own criteria. But
44:41
Speaker 1: for a while it allowed these laws to basically say, Yep,
44:44
Speaker 1: this person committed the criminal act. By definition, they have
44:47
Speaker 1: a paraphilic disorder, and pair of people with paraphilic disorders
44:51
Speaker 1: have basically a chronic, ongoing um it's illness disorder that
44:59
Speaker 1: that we need to them out of society indefinitely. For Yeah,
45:03
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that you have seen the great,
45:05
Speaker 1: great documentary Capturing the Freedman's from two thousand three, and
45:10
Speaker 1: by talk about a documentary to really take you on
45:12
Speaker 1: a roller coaster of how you feel about things like this.
45:17
Speaker 1: Um I remember, I mean I've only seen it the
45:19
Speaker 1: one time way back when, but it just rocked my world.
45:22
Speaker 1: As far as letting you come to your own conclusions,
45:25
Speaker 1: which I think the best documentaries do you know. Yeah,
45:28
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it in a while either, but I
45:30
Speaker 1: remember feeling the exact same way about it. Yeah, really
45:33
Speaker 1: interesting stuff. Uh what else do we have in here?
45:36
Speaker 1: I mean we talked about treating it with cognitive behavioral therapy. Uh,
45:40
Speaker 1: there's another line of treatment if you. Uh, I mean,
45:44
Speaker 1: I guess it's still called treatment, but in that they're
45:46
Speaker 1: not trying to say don't do this, but hey, maybe
45:50
Speaker 1: we can take something that you clearly want to do
45:53
Speaker 1: that's problematic in your life and just um construct your
45:58
Speaker 1: life in a way so it's not so problematic and
46:00
Speaker 1: you can still do that and it's not causing you
46:02
Speaker 1: or anyone else any harm and make it a positive
46:05
Speaker 1: part of your sexual identity. Yeah, I would guess, like,
46:07
Speaker 1: for example, something like cross stressing. I think it's a
46:10
Speaker 1: really good example of how somebody might feel distress about
46:15
Speaker 1: um about having that paraphilia where they could really benefit
46:19
Speaker 1: from cognitive behavioral therapy with a therapist who basically said, hey,
46:23
Speaker 1: you know, is this is your Is your wife okay
46:26
Speaker 1: with this? Yeah? Like, or what's the problem here? Is
46:30
Speaker 1: it really because you're disappointing your parents? Maybe that is it? Well,
46:33
Speaker 1: barn'th your parents are dead, they aren't paying attention anymore.
46:36
Speaker 1: If you really are enjoying yourself, like, maybe just go
46:38
Speaker 1: with it. It doesn't matter what society says. That is
46:41
Speaker 1: a that would be a really beneficial um situation for
46:45
Speaker 1: somebody who is experiencing some some level of distress where
46:49
Speaker 1: it just came from the fact that they had an
46:52
Speaker 1: atypical sexual proclivity and they were distressed by the fact
46:55
Speaker 1: that it it contravened or it was in contradiction with
47:00
Speaker 1: society's norms or expectations, and that was it. That was
47:03
Speaker 1: the whole problem, right, Or if there's a real world
47:06
Speaker 1: situation like it's butting up against your job or a
47:08
Speaker 1: social relationship maybe constructed in a way where it doesn't
47:12
Speaker 1: do those things, and then it's just you know, it's
47:15
Speaker 1: all good. Yeah, maybe save the animals for after work, Like,
47:19
Speaker 1: don't leave work to go get an enema unless your
47:23
Speaker 1: job is giving enemas, then you're in hog Heaven. I guess.
47:28
Speaker 1: So that one, by the way, is called let me
47:30
Speaker 1: see if I can find it real quick. What do
47:32
Speaker 1: you have a master list on your phone? There? No,
47:34
Speaker 1: I just wrote that one down. Oh yeah right here. Uh.
47:37
Speaker 1: Klismaphilia really that is a that is a paraphilia regarding
47:42
Speaker 1: receiving enemas as far as I can tell, So you
47:45
Speaker 1: would receive an enema in order to achieve completion. That's right. Interesting. Yeah,
47:52
Speaker 1: I feel like there's probably nothing that isn't defined. I
47:57
Speaker 1: think it's one of those things you know, what's that
47:59
Speaker 1: was it rule forty two where um, if if it exists,
48:04
Speaker 1: there's internet, there's porn about it. Yeah. I mean the
48:07
Speaker 1: internet is is in a good way, has brought these
48:11
Speaker 1: people together because of many many people for many many
48:13
Speaker 1: years felt very alone, uh in this stuff. And um,
48:17
Speaker 1: and we should also shout out kind of loose friend
48:21
Speaker 1: of the show, Kevin Allison from the comedy Troupe of
48:24
Speaker 1: the State on MTV many years ago. He has a
48:27
Speaker 1: great podcast called Risk. Uh all caps are I SK
48:32
Speaker 1: exclamation point and Risk doesn't necessarily deal with this, It
48:35
Speaker 1: deals with UM. It's just really good people telling kind
48:38
Speaker 1: of risky stories about their life that they normally wouldn't
48:40
Speaker 1: tell in a room full of people. Um. But Kevin
48:43
Speaker 1: is also championed, UH, champion fetishes in the people in
48:48
Speaker 1: paraphilias basically consenting PARAPHILIAX who don't have a disorder and
48:53
Speaker 1: kind of helping them to be right with themselves and
48:59
Speaker 1: to be more excepting of others. It's really kind of
49:02
Speaker 1: interesting and cool. Yeah. I think that's the way it
49:04
Speaker 1: should be. I feel like, if somebody has a kink
49:06
Speaker 1: that that you don't jibe with, but that doesn't have
49:09
Speaker 1: anything to do with you, just remember it doesn't have
49:11
Speaker 1: anything to do with you and don't judge them. Yeah,
49:13
Speaker 1: Kevin's a really really good dude. Yeah, that's cool. Way
49:16
Speaker 1: to go, Kevin. You're doing God's work. So uh oh,
49:21
Speaker 1: by the way, it's rule forty four, Lowell corrected me.
49:24
Speaker 1: Thanks Lowell. What do you say rule forty two? Yeah?
49:26
Speaker 1: I think I said forty two. I don't know forty
49:29
Speaker 1: forty four, whatever it takes. I was thinking of the
49:31
Speaker 1: hit Man agent forty two. That's forty six, right, So
49:38
Speaker 1: you got anything else? I got nothing else? Alright. Well,
49:40
Speaker 1: look for some more more specialized episodes on paraphilias coming
49:45
Speaker 1: down the pike. But for now, that's paraphilia. If you
49:48
Speaker 1: want to know more about paraphilia, the internet is wide
49:51
Speaker 1: open for you. That's right. Since I said that, it's
49:53
Speaker 1: time for a listener mail. The governor is off the
49:58
Speaker 1: internet is is ready to be goosed? Yes, goosed? I
50:03
Speaker 1: meant that is like an engine revving thing. Not never mind,
50:08
Speaker 1: I know it's you man. Yeah, this is a short one.
50:11
Speaker 1: Hey guys, Remember we had that listener mail from between
50:15
Speaker 1: Jeremy and Kate. Yeah, yeah, from the MSG episode about
50:18
Speaker 1: the Chicago thing. So we have Maggie chiming in now.
50:22
Speaker 1: All these people are so kind. I love it your listener, Maile.
50:25
Speaker 1: Conversation between Jeremy and Kate from Thursday's MSG episode had
50:28
Speaker 1: me smiling, and after the mail from Veronica, I couldn't
50:32
Speaker 1: help but continue this trend. So to Veronica, I am
50:35
Speaker 1: also a stuff you should know, a listener and also
50:38
Speaker 1: a teacher in Chicago, and I was also at that show.
50:41
Speaker 1: Being a first year teacher is extremely challenging in so
50:44
Speaker 1: many different ways, So please be sure to make to
50:47
Speaker 1: take time to take care of yourself and stay positive.
50:50
Speaker 1: I promise it gets easier. Good luck with a new job,
50:53
Speaker 1: and welcome to Chicago from Maggie Beautiful. That was so nice. Maggie. People,
50:58
Speaker 1: we're basically gonna turn listen or mail into a what
51:02
Speaker 1: was that? What's that one? Section? Like I saw you
51:05
Speaker 1: somewhere like Uh, were you the guy on the train
51:08
Speaker 1: who helps helps me through the door. I want to
51:12
Speaker 1: meet you and bring your puppy to our date. That's right? Yes,
51:17
Speaker 1: Well regardless, I think that was very sweet. Who is
51:19
Speaker 1: that from Maggie? Maggie, that was really cool email. And
51:22
Speaker 1: congratulations to you also for being a teacher. You two
51:26
Speaker 1: are doing God's work. That's a new thing. I'm going
51:30
Speaker 1: to say, maybe that'll be a T shirt. I do
51:32
Speaker 1: God's work. I listened to Stuff you Should Know. I
51:35
Speaker 1: love it. Okay, Well, if you want to get in
51:37
Speaker 1: touch with this like Maggie did, or if you want
51:39
Speaker 1: to get in touch with another listener, apparently you can
51:42
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51:44
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51:54
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