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Transcript

CASEBOOK: Office Relationships · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_14: Good morning and welcome to Mental Health Matters Office Hours with me, Dr.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_14: Audrey Tang.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_14: In today's show, we are going to take a look at workplace relationships, and we have sex therapist Medina Demibra to help us out with this very important topic.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_14: Workplace relationships are an interesting band of um of issues, I guess.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_14: Because the workplace is one of those places where we do meet people, where we have the same interests, where we might care about the same things, where we go through the same experiences.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_14: However, they can be a real HR issue.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_14: So let's head over to the main studio.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_14: Medina, welcome to Mental Health Matters Office Hours.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_14: Again, we love having you on this show.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_14: We really do.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_05: It's a privilege and honour to be here again.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_14: Even more special today, we even have a studio audience, so it's we're very excited.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_14: Now, let's just dive straight in.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_14: Relationships in work, are they ever a good idea?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's a very good question.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_05: Good for whom?
• 1:06
  unknown: Right?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_05: Good point! And what type of relationships?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_05: Because some of them, let's say there are three major types: the utilitarian ones, which are aimed actually at promoting yourself, sort of using your power or using your relationship to promote yourself.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: Then we have passionate ones, which are more romantic, and you know, all this where people would be emotionally engaged and would be mostly just for the sake of the emotions.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_05: They're considered to be lower risk.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_05: And then we have the companion ones where people develop their their feelings, their romance gradually, and that considered to be not just low risk, but actually beneficial for the companies to strengthen the relationships between these two people and general the environment in the whole team.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_14: Yeah, I just think I think there can be so many benefits because also if you're working all the time, where are where are you supposed to meet people?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_05: So that's why 40% of people reported having a romance, not necessarily an affair.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_05: No, we'll talk about like romance at their workplace at some point of their lives.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's not whether it's good or bad, it's whether it's real or not, and the answer is it is real.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, no, it's something.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_05: And especially now, I wanted to point out with more of hybrid work and and distance work, now we have digital romances as well happening, and that makes it much harder for the HR to enforce the policies.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_14: Of course, because you you can keep that very secret, actually.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_13: Exactly.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_13: Not what I'd considered.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_13: So talking about HR, sometimes HR do impose rules about workplace um relationships, and it can be helpful because you know where you know where the the boundaries are.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_13: Um and it also means you can establish whether you are in a relationship kind of early on.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_13: Sure.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_13: Um, but what if there's no boundaries set by HR?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_13: How do you make things, how do you make sure that things aren't clouded by uh power struggles, maybe?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_05: I'm afraid there will be power struggles anyway, so whether you have, you know, whether people have relationships or not.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_05: But anyways, I think the first thing is that the transparency probably is the key.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_05: Like um get becoming open about it if the HR uh mostly takes one mishandled relationship for a company to then produce some kind of policy.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um but uh when it already happened, it's uh always a good idea to to like renew the policies, but also to think about the exit strategy.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_05: I think uh rather than focusing on the now uh it's job of HR and the people involved, uh to think what what you know it's not a pessimistic story, it's really asking people what happens if it ends, how it's gonna affect you.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_05: Would you like to be transferred to another department or would would you be able to keep it professional and for one?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_14: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_14: I know people get scared about that kind of thing, but that's just like having insurance.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_14: Exactly.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_14: Exactly, yeah.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_05: With all due respect to feelings, we're here to make money.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry, uh, you know, and and we want to make sure that we everybody's productive, everybody's you know, enjoying at the end of the day.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_05: That's a capitalistic reality.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, no, spot on.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_14: So let's get into this.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_14: Is probably more in line with the work that you do um day to day as a counsellor.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_14: Why do we find ourselves attracted to co-workers?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_14: Because I mean, for me, I know in teaching there's a real intensity, and you go through that same stress and they understand it, and and that can be quite, I guess, in a way, attractive but also reassuring.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_05: Um there are many reasons to it, obviously, but uh for me the first thing that comes to mind is proximity theory, which says that the more we come into contact with people at workplace or physically, the more closer we are physically to them, like our neighbors and so on, the more we're likely to form friendships, um relationship and hatred as well.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, but mostly it's about friendship, even if people have very different personalities.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_05: So that could be like a normal natural state of things that people get attracted to each other.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh second thing is I believe with that we are much better at work than we are at home.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_05: That is true.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um dress up, yeah, we dress up, we behave better because there are certain policies which you know we don't necessarily have at the household, right?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_05: And we get and we get paid.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_05: So of course we're motivated and and so on, hopefully we are.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_05: So uh, and because things at work are clearer, not necessarily, it's like everybody knows, okay, my job is this and that.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_05: Now, with current, you know, um developments of family dynamics and so on, uh, there's such there's a lot of arguments around household work.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_05: Do I do the wishes?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: No, you do the dishes, why is that?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, it uh whereas at work it's very clear, you do the dishes, I do the cleaning up, or I collect, you know, everybody gets paid for it, and so on.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um ideally, obviously.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_14: No, no, no.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_14: I and I think you're right, because also you can then become very good at that bit of the job.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_14: Yeah, that's quite attractive when someone's doing their job well.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah, they're in their element because we uh one of the uh recipes that I give for couples who are sort of losing their spice uh is to watch their partner in their element, right?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_05: When they are like calling or singing or dancing, something that they really enjoy.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_05: Now, at home, we don't necessarily are at our element unless unless it's it's it's a really rare case, unless we're masochistic and we like actually doing all this work and everything.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_05: But mostly so it's a routine stuff, whereas at work we get to hopefully get a chance to thrive.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_05: So missing out this element, that's why workship, workplace relationships and romance are happening because we're able to observe the sparkling.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, like that.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_05: And during daytime as well, come on, like we're on us are much more energetic than after work.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_05: That's really true, that's really true.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_05: So uh so much more to it than we might think.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_13: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_05: It's for better or for worse, it's it's happening, and especially with uh this remote works as well.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we get even more Instagrammed version of a person.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_05: That's true, you know, because we we don't even see them, you know, if if we're attracted to a certain image, and that's what usually happens in the beginning of any romance, that you don't see them for who they are, you see them as a projection of who you you think they are.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_05: And um screen makes it easier to fall in love with an image rather than with a person that you created in your mind.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_13: Love it.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_13: Wow, yeah, there's an awful lot more to it.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_13: Um, is a workplace spouse ever a good idea?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_05: Depends.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_05: Depends on uh it can be uh some people, well, if it's a replacement of a real, you know, marriage that the person currently has, yeah, uh is it an enhancement?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe it helps.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: Uh maybe this is the only way if uh a person doesn't have any other relationship.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe a spouse at work is the only possible relationship for this person, and it mimics marriages in so many ways, like there's support, there's common goal and so on, as long as it's transparent, open, and the boundaries are very clear.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_05: Good luck with that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_14: But you make a good point there, because it's not only the boundaries of the workplace spouse if you have a spouse at home, but actually it's the boundaries of what is this?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_14: What is this in the workplace?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_14: What are we?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_14: And and I think that's really important as well.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_13: Yes, it is, especially if one has a real spouse and the other one doesn't.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_13: That's interesting.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_13: It could be slightly um challenging for the the spouse that's at home and not part of the car.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_13: Yes.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_13: Oh, let's get into your second.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_13: That's where I get my clients from.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: Navigating today's workplace is tough.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_09: Toxic employees, endless drama, lack of motivation.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_09: We've all been there.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_04: But fear not, we are here to help.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: My name is Leanne, and I'm a chartered psychologist.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_09: My name is Al, and I'm a business owner.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_09: And together we dig into the scientific and commercial secrets behind great workplace cultures in truth, lies, and work.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: A no-nonsense award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_04: We explore practical strategies for building a great workplace.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_09: We debunk Ball's words and bring you the very best advice around finding and keeping great people from personality tests.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Personality tests are they're mostly bollocks.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what kind of language you do on your podcast.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if people know this, but the man who wrote the Wonder Woman comics is the person who invented the distance.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_06: When the more flexible working became a norm, you no longer hurt your career prospects by being the one person who works flexible.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_09: All the way to avoiding high turnover.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_07: We uh recruit and promote people to managerial roles based on their technical skills, not their people skills.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_07: This is a very fundamental problem we have, which we haven't directly tackled.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_03: From Toxic Free Coaches.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Interventions for the individual are only half the answer.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Systemic change is the other half.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thinking beyond just paying somebody a good salary, I think is is super necessary now.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: We have to offer so much more than that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: But we have got you covered.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_09: So join us on Tuesdays and Thursdays where we help you to simplify the science of work and build amazing workplace cultures.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_08: Pacific.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_08: So if you're ready to be inspired, empowered, and educated and learn how to live the I Have Today way, then tune in.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_08: Hope to see you there.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_14: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters Office Hours.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_14: We've got Medina, who's a sex therapist, in with us today.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_14: We love Medina because we get to have very spicy conversations.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_14: We've been talking about workplace relationships, and today's very special because we have a studio audience.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_14: And we do have a question from one of our audience members.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_11: Uh yeah, thanks.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_11: You talked about sort of work husbands and wives and things.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_11: But what about if you your partner actually works in your um department and you're having to manage them?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_11: What do you do there?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's a very good question, very tricky one.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_05: I personally um thought it's it's um sort of like a contract towards divorce if a one earlier sooner or later is gonna lead to divorce.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh not necessarily, that was my personal opinion, but research shows it can actually make things a lot easier for the uh workplace.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_05: It can make uh things easier for the people because they get to see the best of themselves during the things that we discussed earlier, you know, that seeing each other in their best element, seeing um if it's a you know a big company, seeing having a socialization together and so on and so forth.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_05: So that actually can bring a couple together if they have strong communication skills.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_05: If uh either they have to develop it over time, or it's gonna actually lead to separation and so on.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_05: So gosh.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_05: Tricky one.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, in general, like family business, for example, this is what I get asked as well.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_05: How um I I don't specialize in this topic because I'm too pessimistic about it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_05: But uh I believe it, you know, it it can bring a lot of bond that you wouldn't necessarily get from any other activity.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_14: I like that.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_14: Really interesting.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_14: Going into a slightly greyer area now, a darker area.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_13: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_13: I like that dark area.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_13: We need to talk about this.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_13: Yeah, we do.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_13: Um there's the whole question of uh workplace affairs.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_13: Um how common are they and how do they generally start?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_05: Well, people report, and again, it could be under uh reported information.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_05: People report that one in five cheating happened with a colleague.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and uh that is high, and Ashley Madison, the dating app.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to advertise Ashley Madison.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_05: Whoever knows should know, right?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_05: Because I didn't, honestly, I didn't.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_05: Ashley Madison, whatever that is.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_12: Don't look it up.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_05: The dating website for um uh affairs.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um so Ashley Madison reports that most of the affairs happen at workplace, so we don't really know because people might uh under-report it, you know, they might keep it secretive for for various reasons, which are understandable.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_05: Uh but yeah, so it's real.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_05: One in ten people in the UK confessed in having an affair uh at the workplace.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_05: So um, yeah, that makes how many are there?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_05: Well, half of the things.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_14: I was gonna say, yeah, one in five have had it for the things already.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_05: So half of the person here will have had an affair at work.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_13: Um it yeah, it's so do you would you say it's the proximity of people again?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_13: Is that is that generally why?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, just something that we discussed earlier.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_05: It's the proximity, is the uh like the best version of the person that we see and that we attracted.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_05: We don't share households, we don't wash the dishes, we don't look after kids, we don't get to decide who goes to which uh in-laws and things like that.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: It makes a lot easier you know to force somebody and to have this passion because um there is um there is also the element of secret secretiveness that makes it really spicy and exciting.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_13: Yeah, oh gosh, interesting, but not in a not in a good way.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_05: But that's where I get my clients, yeah.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_05: I am interested in I welcome people with a fairly brilliant.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_05: But it's not necessarily the bad.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, um I'm just happening recently.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: There's a season, all of my clients come with a fair so I don't know, it's spring or something.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_05: And some of them are with colleagues as well.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_05: Uh unplanned ones, but you know, it happened as a one-off or as an affair.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_05: But uh it's not I know it sounds it's not because I'm a sex therapist and I get paid for it, but it also can tell can can either break or make the couple, so it can it can bring the couple to a new level after the breakup, obviously with a lot of work involved and uh a lot of things to be processed.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_05: Um the couple for the first time in their lives, I see couples having real conversation with each other.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_05: It takes an affair sometimes to to understand what they actually need from each other and what they're actually frustrated with.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_14: I'm gonna jump in because I know you've got a question about the one-offs, but I'm just gonna just jump to the affair question.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_14: Um I do get that an affair can be the that rock bottom that couples have to hit in order to get that conversation going.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_14: So would you or should you confess an affair?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's a good question.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_05: I believe because the emotions that happen after the affair, they are so strong and so immense.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's uh it's shame, it's guilt, but it's also the excitement and joy and like confusion and so on.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_05: So it the it's better to to share it with somebody.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_05: Now, who it's gonna be is up to you, a therapist, a trusted friend, not necessarily HR, what they want to say it.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um, and then because that there's so much they can just tear you apart all the sensations.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it can take away your productivity as well.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um course it can.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so I always leave it up to the clients when they come to me with a confession.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_05: Uh not necessarily that their spouses, their partners should know about it as long as they make sense for themselves.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_05: It's very tricky.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I always feel a bit like a devil's advocate in these cases, but um the truth is, I'm not in any way supporting affairs or anything, but the truth is that um this is happening and we need to find, you know, it's happening more and more, even though people are marrying supposedly people that they love, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: If before it was arranged marriages and you would like have compassion, yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um now it's still happening, and we're trying to find a way to to go around it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_13: Yeah, very uh yeah, a difficult position for you.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_13: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_05: As long as they my my rule is always as long as you didn't break the law, you can confess in anything to me, and I I uh promise I'm gonna keep it private without judging.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_13: No, if that makes sense.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_13: Of course.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_13: So what if something happens is not an affair, but it's a one-off, it's say there's a work trip or a Christmas deal or something like that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_13: And something happens as a good.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_14: Because you're drunk, you know, it's not even a planned, or you don't even want it to carry on from that, or you never saw it coming, maybe.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_14: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_14: And and maybe it is like just a one-off between the two, you know, you know it's just that one-off as well, that sort of situation.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_14: Well, yeah, good point.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_14: Good point.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_05: As long as there is an agreement between these two people that it's a one-off, and if you know, they're they're able to hopefully communicate in advance.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_05: And some couples would have some married couples would have an agreement as well.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_05: You have a right for um once in a year to have a one-of-things.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_05: A whole pass.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's what's that what is that called?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_05: Whole pass.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_05: Whole pass.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_05: What's that?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_14: It's it's yeah, a whole pass used to be an American saying that if you wanted to go to the toilet, you had you got a whole pass.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_14: So if you were caught in the hall, you could say, No, I've I'm allowed to be out here.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_14: Oh, so it's that giving you permission.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_14: Permission.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_13: It's kind of borrowed, so yeah, you've got a whole pass tonight at the girl party.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_13: Just don't tell me what happens.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_13: That's yeah, that you've got to be very understanding partners.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's um we we do know that polyamorous uh the groups, the communities, they're growing every year, so it it is getting real.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_05: It's not necessarily what we are surrounded with, but it does happen.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, it does happen.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_05: Some couples would come to this place where they're okay at occasional one-off things.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_14: Well, and we will do that, we will go into polyamorous, not in today's show, but we do want to talk to you about that because I think that is a very growing area that we do need to discuss.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_14: Um, you had mentioned this briefly earlier, but of course, sometimes there will be a breakup of that relationship or that whatever it is.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_14: How do we then navigate that within the workplace context?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_14: What if you both just can't leave?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_14: You can't leave, but it was an awful breakup.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, and the you know, first thing I think which is important to understand that it can happen to anybody.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_05: Really, it's uh it's very often I what I hear people would say, like, I never thought it would happen to us because it was so strong.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I I get it.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, we whenever we start a relationship or anything, we never think about the breakup at the end.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_05: But it happens, so understanding is a difficult acknowledging actually that it's a difficult process for you and perhaps for your partners for your acts as well.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_05: Um so one thing that I always advise is to keep other employees out from this mentoring sort of therapist position.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh making very, very clear, we can figure it out.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_05: Uh we we will sort it out on ourselves.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_14: So that's really I think that's a really important uh piece of advice there.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_14: Oh, yeah, there will always be uninvited therapist.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_14: Everyone wants to and then and then it'll be their own agendas because they've got a struggle with that person or something like that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_14: You don't know that for sure, and they're not trained therapists.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_14: No, no, no, no.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_14: Yes, we have seen exactly that.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_14: Um, Dana, we're keeping you with us, we'll be back just after this.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_10: Hi there, I'm Dawn Livingston, your host on the Transcend and Succeed Show.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_10: Join me Fridays at 2 pm Central for limitless inspiration and ways to help you transcend your limitations.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_10: Tune in to the Achieve TV Network and the Voyage to Vitality Channel, Transcend and Succeed Show, right here on E360 TV.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_14: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters Office Hours.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_14: We are having a brilliant time with Medina.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_14: We are talking about office romances and we have a studio audience as well, so it's all very exciting.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_14: Um, we've been talking about the workplace affair.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_14: So now I'm gonna just dial it back before that.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_14: So, what happens if you find yourself attracted to a co-worker because of all the things that we said earlier?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_14: You know, that you see them in their element, it's very exciting.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_14: You have those conversations, they understand what you're going through because you're going through the similar experiences, and there are also issues in your relationship.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_14: What is the best thing to do?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_14: I mean, I guess it's gonna be individuals, horses for courses, but what should we sort our own our own house out first?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's it's always important to give like a realistic perspective to yourself, to to bring back the realistic perspective.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_05: What I'm seeing here with this colleague is like a backbassed version of them, not necessarily what they are in the household.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_05: So that sort of grounds you back.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_05: Um sometimes these triangles are, you know, as long as it's kept not too secretive and everything, that can be a good way to enhance relationship with your current partner.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_05: If you're mindful about, if you're aware of that, if it's not some kind of a revenge that you're trying to take on your partner.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_05: See, like I can be attractive to others type of thing, then obviously it it just uh objectifies both of all of the partners involved, um, which um happens a lot.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: So um to answer your question shortly, I would suggest obviously to address yourself, like what are what what are my needs at the moment?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_05: Because this other person definitely, if I'm attracted, there are certain needs that have been met.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_05: Can is there a way that I can ask?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_05: Not demand, not passive aggressive, but actually ask for more than this is what I need, more support.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_05: I need I want to be seen, I want to feel sexy, I want you to help me with this and that.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so to first think and then maybe ask, bring this up in the conversation, not in the form like actually I have you know what.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_05: And if you don't, you know, if you don't do what I tell you, I'm gonna leave you or something.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_05: But you know, it's exaggerated.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_05: But really taking it as an opportunity to learn something about yourself and your relationship because we change.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_05: We change, you know, even in short time.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um we do know from research that when we are getting married and when we are getting in a committed relationship, we have certain needs in the beginning which we're trying to meet with this person, and then this needs change, and because you know, because we sort of got fed uh with what we needed in the beginning, and then it's a good way to upgrade.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_05: Probably it's a good time to upgrade your marriage or to bring it to an end, if you know, if you understood that there's no way you could can meet this need.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_14: Yeah, that's kind of and actually whilst that's quite a harsh reality, I think it is important because it is a reality of of life sometimes.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_14: I think that's very important to have raised.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_14: Um, and actually something that you said on a previous show, which I thought was brilliant, was if you've got that sort of flirtation in mind, play it all the way through and see whether you're still quite as attracted to that person when you're thinking about them in the context of seeing them at home, seeing that you know, not at their best.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, uh ideally you you would see it rationally and like you know, but when you're under the effect of this excitement and hormones and passion, it's hard to be like rational about, oh no, forget about this like you know.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it it probably sharing it with somebody uh who is a trustworthy person, you know, uh helps to at least clear your mind out because there is so much going on, so much brewing.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_14: Yes, very true, very true.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_14: What about when you've got sort of unwanted interest?
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_14: So what starts off as kind of you being nice to someone or maybe a flirtation, but now it's just icky because now they're demanding and now they're there all the time, and now they're expecting you to be their best friend or something like that.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_14: It's not necessarily sexual harassment, but it's just got a bit, oh gosh, why are you inviting yourself to lunch with us kind of thing?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_05: Uh it can be cultural.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_05: That's the first thing that came to my mind.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_05: Some cultures perceive it as you know, your no or your turning away as a sign of like come and get me.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: So uh whereas in in some cultures that would be very clearly understood.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_05: I'm no longer interested, thank you.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_05: You know, we can move on from so on.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um also you you might consider talking openly, like I've noticed uh this, it's making me uncomfortable.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I would like to keep it professional, please.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and this is how I want this.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_05: You know, you're not you're not in the position of request or something.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_05: You you make it very clear I'm uncomfortable.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: If this person is no longer, you know, is is not open for conversation, doesn't seem to get it.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's also interesting to take it as a chance to to actually embrace your disgust or whatever that is.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: And really, you know, because we think like, oh, I shouldn't, or that you know, like we're trying to avoid this feeling that we we have uh in our bodies as well.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like just actually sit with this and like, what is it about this person that really makes me feel icky, that you know, that pushes me off.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_05: Is it the smile, it's just the way that they say it, da da da?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_05: Sometimes it can be not even about that person's butt it can be a reminder of some kind of experience and so on.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_05: And then once you shift your perspective, this person can change the behavior as well.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_05: Hopefully, if not, then you um you know you report to HR.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_13: I really like that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_14: That's really helpful.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_13: Really helpful.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_13: And so going back to Audrey's first question, um, what if you're single but attracted to somebody who isn't single but they're flirting back?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting for me always to to look at the attachment style here.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_05: Uh why would you be attracted to somebody who is already in a relationship?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_05: They can flirt back or not, it doesn't matter.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_05: But why would you choose somebody who is distant from you and who is unavailable?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_05: Uh you know, because it's it's not like we're putting all the responsibility on just on you.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: It could be other person could be interested in like keeping this fire going for whatever reason.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_05: Uh but also you you could ask yourself how how come?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_05: And usually it's not the first time, believe me, that you would be attracted to somebody like that.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_14: Yes, it's not the first time you've been attracted, you would be attracted to somebody who is attached.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_05: Who is already attached, and it will make either very difficult for you to sort of win them.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_05: So why then I would ask why are you choosing this difficult way?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, you know, uh with with so many choices.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_05: Oh no, because he's so this and that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_05: This is bullshit.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_05: You know, there's uh this is your trauma speaking, not you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_05: And so we're trying to unpack what is the trauma behind why you're choosing the safe way.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah, to make sure that it that he doesn't reciprocate or to the level that he or she doesn't reciprocate to the level that you actually need and want.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_13: Okay.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_13: That's very good point.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_13: Um, and what about navigating the the position of power problem?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_13: So in work relationships, when especially when one might be a manager has the power to hire and fire, and they're in a relationship with somebody who doesn't.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry, I'm smiling, it's not a funny topic, actually.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_05: But the first image that comes to my mind is the secretary movie when you know she found a way to navigate by actually seducing her mother and so on, just playing around and I think happily get getting married.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um obviously I don't recommend that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think it's a good ending.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, oh, and once they got married, everything got resolved, and you know it's one of the problems, isn't it?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_05: So I um the BDSM community like try to promote it and forget about it.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_05: So the way the way to so this is anti, what you shouldn't uh do, like anti-advertisement of how to deal with power imbalance, perhaps removing yourself from this imbalance because it can happen, right?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_05: And and sometimes, yes, it can be your dream job, it can be uh dream atmosphere, and nevertheless, if you find yourself uh that it's affecting your well-being, your performance, and your overall um self-esteem, right?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_05: There can be elements of abuse as well, which uh normally you wouldn't recognize in workplace.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_05: It can be very, very hidden and very subtle, and it can be the abusive environment where everybody perceives it as normal, especially in in legal structures.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my god, it's like it's incredible how much abuse there is, and everybody acts normal, like you're getting shouted at you work like so many hours, and it's a norm, especially if you're a starting uh legal worker.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_05: You know, it's like this is how yeah, how it's done.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_14: That's scary.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_14: That is so scary.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_05: This is one of the spheres, obviously.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_05: There are many more.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_05: Oh gosh.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_05: Well, so much to think about.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_05: Where can we find out more about you?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, you can go to my website, medinademirbosch.com.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_05: But also, if you just Google Medina Sex Therapist, uh you would see different links to different platforms that I'm registering.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_14: And in TEDx talk as well.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah, yeah, it's uh it's on uh YouTube.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_14: We're keeping Medina to give us her top tips and let's head over to Business Boost.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_14: So, on Business Boost, for those leaders who notice an office romance, please just be aware of your workplace policies.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_14: And you might want to start by speaking privately to the people involved.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_14: You may need to emphasize the importance of keeping things professional, you know, no personal displays of affection and and so on.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_14: But generally, it might well be that people do already understand that and they already understand that they are in a very different situation.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_14: Also remind the couple to be mindful of other colleagues who may not want to know intimate details about their co-worker.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_14: Where possible, an option can be to move one of the couple to a different department, but this mustn't affect their professional standing and their own well-being.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_14: But it might well be that they could ask that themselves, but use that with care, always follow your policies.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_14: I will leave you with reflecting on this article in The Business Leader.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_14: Rather than treating office romances as a taboo, the writer says it may be beneficial for performance, for work culture, and even employee commitment.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_14: So, Margot Faragi, who is a global business coach, says when handled the right way, workplace relationships can bring people closer and make them more engaged.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_14: And leaders may see workplace romance as a savvy investment.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_14: Offering a more legal perspective, Michelle Last at Keystone Law says that where employees' private life potentially impacts work, then theoretically an employer is able to take action.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_14: And she explains that employers are within their rights to seek a ban on workplace relationships, they are within their rights and to require the employee to disclose the fact they're in a relationship with a colleague.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_14: But be aware that there's a very grey area.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_14: You cannot necessarily stop the relationship, you can only determine how it's dealt with in the workplace.
• 34:43
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• 34:47
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• 34:52
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• 34:58
  SPEAKER_15: Bedford Coffee Roasters guarantees an exceptional experience for producers and consumers.
• 35:04
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• 35:14
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• 35:25
  SPEAKER_14: We've reached the final part of our show, and I'm so disappointed because this is such a great show, and we're loving having you, and we are loving having our studio audience, and we have a an experience from our studio audience that they'd like to share with us.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, yeah, so um years ago um at work, um at the time my husband had left me, and a colleague of mine, um he was he was much older, um, and he was he wasn't a permanent colleague, he was a locum.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: He took me to one side and he offered me his uh sexual services in case I was lonely and missing that part of things.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_14: Can I just drop it just sexual services?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_14: We're not talking about shoulder to shoulder.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: He offered me.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, knowing your vulnerable position.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we worked together.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: It was a it's a it was a small a small team.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, I um this is rather a norm in many cultures.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_05: I'm afraid uh I had a similar experience.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds familiar.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_05: When I was working in Cyprus and I just had a breakup with uh a guy and I was like, would you like and then the other guy just said, Would you like to work in my restaurant now that you're single and I can take care of it?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_05: Right the next day.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_05: And and for and he was um yeah, yeah, and and he was honestly surprised that I yeah, I didn't agree.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, what's wrong now that you're single and you're vulnerable and you need money and you feel lonely, like what's what's the problem here?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_05: He he wouldn't never, whenever we came because it's a small town, whenever we come across, he would never talk to me.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_05: He was just offended.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_14: Isn't that so interesting?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_14: Because what starts to me in Miami like all the sexual harassments, I'd never have considered this might be a norm and you might have offended him.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_14: Or poor thing he just therapy session because he was rejected.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_05: But this I also thought about the cultural norms, uh, the perception uh of women uh in, you know, especially immigrant women, post-Soviet women, like I am.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_05: For example, in in Cyprus it was a different thing.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_05: Uh but here as well, you know, uh I would really want to do to look at the research that would say that that some employers would target the women.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_15: Um so shocked, I just politely declined.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_05: So you didn't need therapy afterwards.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_14: Oh my gosh.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_14: Well, I mean, as our audience ponders that now, um we are gonna go over to Medina for top tips on navigating these workplace relationships.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_05: There's so much, uh, but I would just say always rule number one: if you see that there's an affair starting to happen, please report to HR.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_05: Don't, you know, leave all this uh intrigues and everything for spy movies.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: Just be open and transparent.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_05: Uh number two, please set the boundaries very clearly with the person you're having.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_05: Uh hopefully just a romance, not an affair.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_05: But if you know uh that we're talking all the flirting happens after 5 p.m.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_05: or 6 p.m.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_05: You know, no, um, because it can, especially in certain cultures, uh it can make people really uncomfortable.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: We know that in collectivistic cultures people are much more rigid towards workplace romance.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_05: And number three, don't, I mean, I really mean it, don't have a relationship with your subordinate, don't have some relationship with somebody who reports to you.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh leave it for the sex place with your partner, with your whatever, but it really can get it can impact your reputation, it can impact your career, uh, especially for women.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_05: We know that women who engage in in um such affairs tend to tend to suffer much more from reputational damage.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_14: So gosh, Medina, thank you so much.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_14: Thank you.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_14: Every time it just you learn so much, and it's we always come with more questions, I think, than answers.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, the same for me.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_05: I learned so much with you as well.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_05: I like our you know, our questions and also our audience adding up today.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_14: Yes, thank you to our audience.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_14: Thank you for tuning in, and thank you to Medina from Judith and I.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_14: Have a healthy week.