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Why we live better when we talk about death · The Uplifters

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: An Uplifter is a compelling leader who tries to breathe life and hope into people around them.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Who listen and care and guide and help.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Whose way of being in the world inspires.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who uplifts with humor and understanding.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Who leads by example.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Don't judge.
• 0:26
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• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Bold.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Determination.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Who are here to create a better world.
• 0:33
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• 0:35
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• 0:36
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• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Who uses their best self in order to help others.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I found the life that I liked and I worked toward that.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: We are all Uplifters.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Muah!
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Big love.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Elise Hart and I'm thrilled to nominate Stefanie Elkins.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to The Uplifters podcast, where we talk to amazing, inspiring women about how they do what they do, not just their purpose work, but how they sustain that good work by taking care of themselves and really ensuring that that good work can keep going in the world.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And today's guest
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: is a beautiful example of that.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're joined by Stefanie Elkins, who was nominated by the wonderful Elise Hart.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Stefanie is, I truly will.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Stefanie is a family caregiver, consultant and an end of life doula and the founder of Be Present Care.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: where she facilitates and guides caregiving and end-of-life conversations and she also educates and develops care plans and programs for families and along with the families themselves she supports health care and
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Senior Focused Professionals and Organizations.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's also the founder of Death Over Drafts, a community event that's held at breweries to spark conversation and connection around death and dying, a topic that we just don't talk about enough.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: We avoid and we dance around and pretend it's not gonna happen, but it's the surest thing of all.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: that we will have been born and we will die.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing I really admire about Stefanie's work is that she looks to bring not just transparency, but light and joy and connection.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: In short, she is making death, something that comes with a lot of sadness, uplifting.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for being here, Stefanie.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for allowing me to be with you.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I just going with the dancing around death and dying, the idea of dancing with.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just those like slight shifts, because we are all going to we have or we're going to be dealing with it.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: What is different when we dance with instead of away from?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: The acceptance.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: and being able to process and grieve appropriately.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: The whole idea is meeting people where they're at, being present for them.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's asking the right questions and not being in a death denying culture, which is where we're at right now.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And there is a shift and an opportunity and people to encourage those conversations when it's not necessarily part of the healthcare system right now.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, I didn't appreciate this at all, really, until we lost my grandfather a few years ago.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he really chose to go on his own terms.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And while there were medical necessities and there was no conversation about this being a medically aided death, it was.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: we were able to sit with him in a room for almost a week.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: My mother, my grandmother, my aunt and I, while our extended families and the people we love and support were sort of off in their lives supporting us from afar and have this really transcendent experience in hospice.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel the same depth of
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: emotional connection and gratitude.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it is deep.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like as deep as I know.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Other than the midwives who help bring my babies into the world, I feel the same way about the hospice nurses.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: When your grandfather is in hospice, how did that shift from hospice, which is medical care, but it's a focus on comfort versus curative care, which is that big shift.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: We know we're talking about from curative to comfort.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: How did that happen for your family and for him?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he had been declining mentally and physically for some time, and he had been living in a senior living facility with my grandmother.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they made the decision probably earlier than many places would have to put him in hospice.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: But when asked if he was ready to go, he was very sure and very clear that he was ready to go.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: I had this realization that we were the only rooms in the entire hospital that weren't working to keep someone alive.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: We were trying to gently and lovingly transition someone into death.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought it was such a beautiful acknowledgement to you of how unique that purpose is in that space compared to everywhere else in the healthcare system.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's that shift.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that a lot of people think hospice equals imminent death.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: when a lot of times when people can go on to hospice, they can actually do better.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the palliative effect because hospice, just to do a little education on hospice, which is a medical care that meets you wherever you're at.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is, there are certain requirements for it.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Terminal diagnosis with a prognosis is six months or less.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then also you get a holistic care team that comes to you.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so you get medication management, you get supplies, you get a nurse, you get spiritual leaders, you get a social worker, you get bathing workers.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't work in hospice, as you can see, I'm very passionate about it.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I work beside hospice, because hospice is medical care that meets people like people don't want to be in the hospital and they want to be at home.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is the care you get.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: And there is that shift.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: of what you said was just really powerful of like how this of another friend Jennifer Ryan says precious time with the family and that you can you have this beautiful week but you you know there is you have to you have the honor of being there.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: with it and so what in terms of end-of-life doulas working in partnerships with hospice because hospice is medical care even though there's a holistic approach end-of-life doulas and death doulas are non-medical support to meet the emotional spiritual and physical support for the individual that's dying themselves and the family and we just have a little more time to do that because hospice is a business and they have a lot of people to meet so
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: it's working in team.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad to hear that there was discussion with your family.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like to be not a fearful of hospice, but embrace it.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're so right.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: We were brought in as partners in the process, and we were given a lot of space to grieve in the way that felt right for us, which was not quiet.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of music.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of live music for that matter.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: my grandfather's ashes are in his mandolin.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, beautiful.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And as my grandmother has moved from place to place, Papa gets carried around in the mandolin that my other uncle was able to place him in.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so it's, it was... Rituals and like the legacy that... Yeah, you're so right.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have never unpacked this or really thought about this experience beyond just how profoundly beautiful it was and how
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: Easy it made the transition.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have never felt that sense of forgetting that he's gone that I have felt with other people because I was there for the going and I've never felt out of peace with the decisions that we made because he led them initially and then we were able to support them with the medical team.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's the idea of having to have those conversations sooner than later.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we have so much fear around talking about it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why bringing it up sooner, like what kind of music that he likes wanted to play?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Did he want to have music or not around?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Who did he want to have around?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: Who did he want to make amends with?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he set the tone for the readiness that he had.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you're right.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that readiness is such an interesting point, right?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because with all things in life, we can have a tendency to hold on to what has been.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that creates a lot of tension and fear, because we can't hold on to the past.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Imagine that's not that's truer and end of life than anywhere else in life.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it sounds like you still just talking about your grandfather, you still have a relationship with him.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not in the human physical form, but your relationship with him doesn't change.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason you do is because grief equals love, right?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And going through that process of there's going to be pain, but that end of life experience that you're left with, which was
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: beautiful one because you could be with him even though there's the end of life is practical and profound at the same the dying process and afterwards you had some space there because you're following your grandfather's lead and being on hospice allowed time to be present yes yes instead of trying to run from it and now i'm getting a greater sense of what you mean dancing with death yeah
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: and the name of your company.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's all coming together for me.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Be present care as opposed to escapism or trying to avoid or stick our fingers in our ears and close our eyes and pretend things aren't happening and then hold regret and a sense of loss that we didn't engage.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And being present is also a gift.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: like those that plan ahead, you know, with with parents planning for their adult children.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a gift to plan ahead.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: People like sometimes die the way they lived.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it could be messy.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you don't have the step.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to acknowledge that family dynamics, grief and expectations always show up.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just got off a phone with a colleague.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's an elder care attorney who's always talked about advanced care planning.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Who do you want to speak for you if you can't speak for yourself?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want or not want at the end of life?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are your goals of care?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this has been her life.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Her mother is at a state right now in pain, but she's working with her siblings who are in denial about where mom is right now and what she wants.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the conversation around hospice is led with fear and not seen as an opportunity to take care of mom in a way she wants right now with dignity at home.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm such pain for my friend.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you work in this space, you just don't know what's going to share up and it can be messy no matter what the information you have.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So like starting the conversation sooner, allowing space, what can we agree on?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking about Anna Sale's podcast, Death, Sex and Money, which I'm a huge fan of.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And how these are the topics we need to talk more about.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And interestingly, last week, I was conducting focus groups for a big national bank with wealth leavers and receivers.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So people who are considering how to leave money to their families.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And people who will be receiving money from their families.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so much
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: about communication and intentionality because everybody had ideas about what they wanted this process to look like.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: They had ideas about what would done with the money, what the rules would be, how people would think about them after they were gone, but nobody was talking about it.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: They were keeping it all to themselves and then expecting it to magically happen or to gain the courage to talk about it at the last minute and then running out of time.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the comprehensive estate plan, which you talk about the will, the trust, the power of attorney for finances and power of attorney for health.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the will and trust people talk about where they want, but the health conversation or the ethical wills, the legacy aren't normally part of that.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And who's responsible for that?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the lawyers, doctors, there's a Medicare code to have these conversations, but nobody is really responsible to having these.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's a default to the family members.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are more comfortable at their conversations.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I was encouraging my client, the bank,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: to trigger these conversations.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: I thought, what a unique and differentiating value you can provide to your customers if you help them express and not only communicate their hopes and dreams to others, but have a conversation about what they want their legacy to be.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: It just, it feels so much more empowering.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: It gives us so much more agency over our destinies, if we can talk about it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, agency and advocacy.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's so, these are kind of the audiences like fiduciaries, you know, those are who I just did a talk with a fiduciary with a lawyer.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: that really need to encourage these conversations.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't know if you don't ask or provide an opportunity for it because the fear.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's like, but who's responsible for it?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with that in mind, somebody asked me like, when should you bring an end of life doula or death doula or end of life consultant or midwife?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: When you're 18 years old, the idea of when you want agency or who you want to speak for you or not.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it can start at any age.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now you don't have to be terminal to really work with somebody.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there's solo agers that really don't have anybody because you don't know who's your default.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really to empower, to uplift individuals, to encourage
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: these conversations.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, you've really learned from your experience from your grandfather.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And now you have a better idea.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you can share with others when this is I look good in hot pink.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: When I want to be in hot pink, hot pink is your color, right?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uplifter.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so you know, what do I want surrounded by me is a lot of color and light.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what brings you comfort, color and light.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I keep a note in my phone because these conversations come up occasionally, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And people will casually throw out like, we'll have a conversation as a family at dinner.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And my 13 year old has expressed a desire for a hot pink casket.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: a Barbie casket.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Not really surprising if you know her.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: So these conversations have happened and we live in a multi-generational household.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so it comes up.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we've tried to demystify death by talking about it.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I keep a note in my phone.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: You normalize it.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we normalize it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I keep a note in my phone that has everybody's death and dying wishes.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think it would hold up in court, but it's I'm so proud of that list.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And we check in periodically.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, is this still all true?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Any changes you want me to make?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel this real honor to hold that knowledge for each person to capture it.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am so proud of you.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love hearing stories like that.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a game called the Death Deck.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have the co-creators are dear friends of mine and one's a hospice social worker.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she was working with a woman whose husband was one of her patients and they stayed friends, Lisa and Lori.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And years later, they, even though she's a young mom at the time,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: they decided to keep in contact.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: So they decided to create something called the Death Deck, which is upstream conversations in a kitschy way about what you want and don't want.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's when I was playing the Death Deck with my family, and I was talking to my dad, who we do not have conversations like this.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: He's very hard.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I asked, what music do you want to have playing at your end of life celebration?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, he loves Motown.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: That gets him going.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: We saw the Jersey Boys together.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, OK, these are the songs, right?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Whitney Houston, Greatest Love of All was the song.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he went on and he talked about Whitney Houston and this song.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then we went on YouTube and we played some of her best hits and we laughed.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: I have Greatest Love of All.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love that so much.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're reminding me of here is that by having these conversations, we're getting to know people better alive.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: What an insight into your father to know that that's what he wants people to hear as they reflect on him.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And not an insight he would have been able to communicate in any other way.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it is easier to talk to sometimes strangers than it is to your own family.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to practice this in different companies.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so talk about death over drafts.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: How did that happen?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm an extrovert.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: I like pairing things.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So pairing my love for craft beer and holding space on end of life conversations.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's about draft beers and drafting your own narrative on end of life.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a casual environment.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's for those that are curious and also those that work in the end of life space to share their stories.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: There are now crafters, a.k.a.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: hosts across the country.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's getting people to think about it in a way of not fear, but about celebrating.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's creating a community of like-minded individuals across the country and some in Canada to hold these spaces and get it out there like trivia nights.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: How do people respond?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: It allows those that work in the end of life community, which is really growing and bring others.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: It feels kind of safe and a little more informal.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: One time I put it in a meetup.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: and it was a couple they're having a date night and they had to decide like she gave him like three events to choose from and it was a death over drafts that they chose.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like how cool is that?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you believe that is?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you think they came?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's I think people are curious and given the opportunity this the gentleman was in the military and worked for the police and it was a whole different shift of way of talking about death and dying.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: We just dealt with the COVID, with the pandemic, where we all were in grief together.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: We had universal grief and like where do and how do we process this?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: People I think want to gather in community to talk about it and feel not so alone.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I also am involved with something called Silent Foot Club of Death.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's another kind of event
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: also could be held at libraries or a brewery, reading books on death and dying.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: You read your own book for an hour, you don't talk.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some really beautiful things of connecting around death and dying.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm realizing too, as I listen to you, is that the core theme here is invitation to communicate.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: yeah the invite welcome versus fear which is you know death anxiety is really real yeah and so acknowledging that shift knowing that's real and where can we meet to so you can be open to moments that you've experienced yeah i mean my soul sister
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: My heart is 94 years old and she's not going to live forever.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: At some point in the next decade or two, I'm going to have to lose this person who is profoundly significant to my life.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Been so lucky to have her for so long and have her so healthy and so vibrant and so fun for so long.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even knowing all of that, I have to accept that I don't get to have this gift in this way forever.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: and that's really scary and sad.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: The distinction I'm making as I listen to you is it can be sad but not scary.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Those don't have to that scary and sad don't have to always be together.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: that you're human, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Look, the whole thing that you're acknowledging all this and it's an and not a but is you're already there.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be painful.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be different.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that you're already sharing this is like the awareness of it and talking about it is going to not that it's not going to make the hurt or pain or sadness go away, but it will feel a little different.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: The Acceptance of It.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: It just will feel a little bit lighter.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking to somebody whose grandmother is 105 years old.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I want to say that, please.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And they're healthy and beautiful.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You've had your mother, grandmother, and you're looking for 105.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's like unbelievable.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big lot.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, having somebody in your life that long.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's others.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, I want to live that long.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Other people I talk to be like, I want to be out by 80, you know, because of the experiences they have.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, dealing with Alzheimer's and dementia is a different type of death.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So what kind of life, what is quality of life for you?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just age of what, what does that look like for you?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: What's going to bring you comfort and joy at a certain point?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, this readiness we were talking about earlier, you know, doesn't always match up in terms of the physical, emotional, and spiritual of somebody, you know, especially individuals with cancer that aren't ready, their body is ready, but emotionally and spiritually, they aren't.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do we work on that so we can honor all those different aspects or welcome or invite all of that?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the pain and suffering, which pain is not just physical, can be acknowledged.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is such an interesting point here.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there are many possibilities, but two that are coming up to mind for me right now is the body is passing, but the mind and spirit want to keep going.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the other where the mind and spirit are ready to go, but the body isn't quite ready.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so when those are out of sync, what have you seen be helpful?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of helping people find a greater sense of acceptance or peace in that passage.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's knowing that I can't fix it.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's one thing.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: The ego has to step aside.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing of listening and just being by the side.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Brene Brown has this great video of sympathy versus empathy.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just being with somebody in that place and not trying to fix it.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think education and information.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully with my friend that, you know, her, her siblings have a difference around the idea of hospice that I'm going to have be able to get on a phone with them later today.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: and hopefully hear where she's coming from because it's the sister that's like, hospice is going to kill her.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't need pain meds.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: The fear about losing mom and meeting her and going, what can we all agree on is with mom so that she does not want to die in the hospital.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: She wants to be at home.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: So what kind of support can we get for her at home?
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's hospice.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hospice is medical care that can meet you wherever you're at at home.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: and so hopefully I'll have a chance later today to kind of be with the family and kind of shift because there's so much pain among the whole family about you know where mom is in her journey right now and her or if she's actively dying or not but with hospice there could be more like we said more of a palliative that she's getting the right comfort she needs which is physical medical emotional spiritual yeah
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: There you go.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I'm hearing you say, too, is that as a third party, you can help bring people back to what matters most.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is an incredibly complex situation and there's lots of emotion.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's also lots of practicality.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: And in all parts of life, I find that it's really easy for us to get focused on a detail and lose sight of what matters most.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: because we get attached to that idea instead of getting to the root.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what's happening here.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So at least what you would want to suss out, it seems like, is what do you care most about and how do we align our decisions to that instead of an idea or past experience even about what was?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what I'm hearing you say, though, is that all comes after just acknowledging and validating that everyone has really complex emotions and ideas around this.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the idea about being present right now about, okay, what we know what's in the past and the present.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the other things that my colleague Birgitta shares does life and death are not just medical events.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're labors of love.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: and this idea of laboring and birth and death that you sometimes need more support.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, medical, but the whole larger picture of like we going back to the messiness of it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: It can be very hard and some people are better at certain things and others in terms of some people are like, okay, I'm going to be a taskmaster on this and get to the doctors and get the information and be on the medication and others just want to slow down and hold mom's hand.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's what mom needs right now.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: She needs us to hold her hand and be with her or not fight around her.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: She needs to know that we're going to be okay without her.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's causing pain for her is that we're fighting.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is it true that most of the time the reason people get out of sync though is because they're not saying I need to hold mom's hand right now or I feel like what mom needs right now is this and there's a lack of communication about individual needs
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think people just don't know what they don't know.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they don't know what to do.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: They need permission to do certain things or need guidance.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because people aren't sure.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: People maybe it's people's first experience.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why when people have a death experience at a young age or people go into this work is because they've had time to process and deal with it or learn how to cope.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: So what happened in your life that led you to this career and focus?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: it was kind of an interesting journey, a calling, if you will, instead of like a personal death.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't, didn't really have any real death experiences when I'm younger, but my mother worked in the elder care field.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: She was an activity specialist.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would join her and go in there and see these older adults, pretty isolated and alone.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd go play bingo and I'd walk by them and smile and touch.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: And just that felt like
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: such a gift to be able to do and just bring a little spark of joy in that moment for somebody.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's kind of continued.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up then being able to run a free resource center for family caregivers dealing with Alzheimer's and other memory impairments.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Gibbons, Lisa's Care Connection.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: So my whole thing is like honoring and validating those that are showing up for others in their life.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're long distance or you're caring for someone at home, a sibling or a parent or a partner and seeing all the different things that they were
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: How to Manage and just giving them a little support.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up working for Compassion and Choices, which is a national nonprofit focusing on improving care and expanding choice at end of life.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I worked on passing the California End of Life Option Act.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: meeting others that want to have choice at their end of life and educating on these options of starting these conversations like we're having now.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Talking about medical aid and dying really encourages these conversations of how you feel.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: I also experienced a death by suicide on my journey when I'm already in this field and so the idea of also seeing the different types of death and the grief that comes with that and being able to validate and let people know they're not so alone.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Validation is the other major theme I'm pulling from this.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully this will be a reminder that whatever we're feeling or whatever we believe is true for us and to honor that truth in one another is the only way to open honest conversation and dance together as opposed to as families, as loved ones, dancing further and further apart from one another.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: You want to have the space to dance in partnership with or on your own, giving people permission to be able to do that and experience something a little different or be curious about it.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's the final thing I really want to pull from this, this reminder that it's all okay and there are no hard and fast rules on how to live or die or parent or grieve.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Grief is not linear.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's all simply what feels most true and most right in the moment.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: The things I look back on and most wish I had done differently,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: are the ones where I tried to follow the rules the most.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Trusting yourself and others?
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was not trusting.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Especially with the health care system when we go into, you know, diagnosis and straight to treatment without the conversations, depending on what that person is or what are the options.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: We sometimes don't have all the education and we don't know what questions to ask.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then what's your intention with all of it?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: What matters most?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: What matters most?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes we don't know, I don't know, we have to be a little more specific.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: Give me two options.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I can let you know.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's such a big question.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, what matters most in this moment right now?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: What matters most that we're, we're really connecting and we're hearing each other.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what matters most right now.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, trusting ourselves that if we stay present, we will make the right decisions for the moment.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's when we're trying to make decisions based on the past or the future that we make decisions that may not feel true.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Stefanie, this is such a beautiful and important conversation.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: You have spent your entire career with people who are
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: Struggling with loss.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of loss to surround yourself with every single day.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you take care of yourself and create distance between your own lived experience and that of your service?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's challenging.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes it's really hard because that's a big part of my identity is just giving.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's having a purposeful life.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I have that with my work.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you're right.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where does the self-care come into that?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I really need to try and remember every day for this practice of starting the day, not doing the social media, but starting with the little things.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: the self-care of making my coffee in the morning, walking my dog, seeing the beauty, the flowers, because I just want to get my day and do, do, do.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's the idea of being as well as the giving and receiving part, the receiving of the self-care of having people in my life that I know were there for each other.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: and that we can be honest with in terms of how are you doing today?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: The giving and receiving.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: The receiving is the hardest I think for a lot of us in this.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think so too.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for saying that.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: We get all day practice at giving.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: We don't necessarily get all day practice at receiving.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you're right.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: It takes a more conscious training for many of us.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being here, Stefanie.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for all you're doing in the world and Uplifters.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have an opportunity to be Uplifters through every stage of
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Life.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: All the way through to the very last moment, my best friend in the whole wide world from childhood, she said to me a few years ago, you know, Aransas, we should really start practicing being the old ladies we want to be.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've noticed that people tend to just become more of what they have always been in old age.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, there are some old ladies out there who are really cranky and mean.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: She said,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: The Kvetch.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: The Kvetching ones.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the really sweet, loving, generous ones.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, that's who I want to be.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to practice that now so that that's what naturally happens when I'm 90 and not making those choices anymore.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're surrounding yourself by good, wise people.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Here's to practicing being who we always want to be.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening to The Uplifters podcast.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you're getting a boost from these episodes, please share them with The Uplifters in your life and then join us in conversation over at TheUpliftersPodcast.com.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: head over to Spotify, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast and like, follow and rate our show.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: It'll really help us connect with more Uplifters and it'll ensure you never miss one of these beautiful stories.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Big love.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Painted water sunshine with rosemary and thyme Dwell and not perplexing though you find it vexing Toss a star and huffer, be your own best luffer Relish in a new prime, plant a tree in springtime Dance without all hindsight, bring the sun to twilight Lift you up, whoa
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Lift you up, whoa Lift you up, whoa Lift you up Lift you up, whoa Lift you up, whoa Lift you up, whoa Lift you up
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: I cried.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's that little thing you did with your voice.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right, in the pre-chorus, right?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was like... Mommy, stop crying.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: You're disturbing the peace.