Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Paul & Sarah Skiba & Lorenzo Chivers Pt. One

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Paul & Sarah Skiba & Lorenzo Chivers Pt. One · The Path Went Chilly

• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to The Path Went Chiley. I'm Robin and
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: this week Jewels will only be with us because Ashley
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: is quite busy, so we're giving her the week off
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: and we'll follow our formula where I describe the details
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: of a case to Jeles and she will give off
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: her reactions. So let's dive right into this week's case.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: February the seventh, nineteen ninety nine, Westminster, Colorado, thirty eight
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: year old Paul Skipa, his nine year old daughter, Sarah Scipa,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: and thirty six year old Lorenzo Shiver spend the day
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: performing moving jobs for a company Paul owns before they
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: all vanished without a trace. When the company's parking lot
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: is searched, Paul's moving truck is found, but there is
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: ample physical evidence, including blood and bullet holes, to indicate
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: the foul play took place. There are numerous theories surrounding
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: the case, such as the disappearances being connected to a
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: dispute between Paul and as a strange girlfriend, but no
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: trace of the three victims is ever found after that
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: The Path Went Chile, So this week we're going to
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: be exploring a missing person's case involving three victims the
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: nineteen nine to nine disappearances of Paul Scipa, Sarah Scipa,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: and Lorenzo Shiver. Paul Scipa was the owner of a
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: company called Tough Movers, and even though his previous marriage
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: had ended in divorce, he maintained a close relationship with
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: his nine year old daughter Sarah. During a weekend visitation,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Sarah accompanied her father on a series of moving jobs,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: which also involved another employee named Lorenzo Shiver. It was
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: established that the trio completed these jobs and return their
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: moving truck to the company's parking lot during the early
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: evening hours, but then something went horribly wrong and Paul, Sarah,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and Lorenzo were never heard from again. The evidence suggested
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: that the victims were ambushed in the parking lot and
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the responsible party disposed of their bodies at another location,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: and the authorities have always been inclined to believe that
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Paul was always the intended target and Sarah and Lorenzo
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: were in the wrong place at the wrong time. But unfortunately,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: since law enforcement made some major mistakes during the early
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: stages of the investigation, crucial evidence may have been lost
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: and whoever committed these murders would have had ample time
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: to cover their tracks. This case has no shortage of theories,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: such as Paul's a strange girlfriend being the mastermind behind
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: this crime, and the possibility has even been pushed forward
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: that Lorenzo killed Paul and Sarah before he disappeared on
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: his own. Whatever happened, these three individuals have not been
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: seen in twenty seven years, so we're going to explore
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: all the different angles on today's episode.
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  Speaker 2: Wow, that is wild to think that three people went
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: missing and that their bodies have never been found. So
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: if Paul was indeed the target and this had something
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: to do with his ex and Sarah's mother, Oh.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I got mixed up there. Like his ex is
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: technically a girlfriend he was breaking out with, and Sarah's
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: mother is a completely different person, so they're not the
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: same thing. Okay, it's not the same person. Yeah.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: I was wondering if you were going to have somebody
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: assassinated like your ex, and it was over maybe a
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: custody dispute, you would sure make you would make especially
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: sure that your daughter wasn't present at the time that
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: said hitman was going to go and end Paul, and
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: you would hope that whomever was doing this would look
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: into a time where they knew that he would be
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: by himself and not with two other people, because like,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: what type of hitman or hit person is going to
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: have the collateral damage of two extra bodies.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, like Sarah's as a tragic figure in this
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: story because she lost her daughter during a weekend visitation
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and it's established that she had nothing to do with
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: the crime. But Paul had another ex girlfriend who is
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: becoming quite a problem, and that's why she has been
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: looked at as a potential suspect. And this case is
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a weird contradiction where the crime itself looks incredibly sloppy
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: and brazen and not the work of professionals. But at
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: the same time, they managed to successfully get rid of
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: the three victims and they've never been found and they've
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: gotten away with it for twenty seven years. But I
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: think that also might be due in large part to
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: the original police investigation, which, as we're going to find out,
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: is one of the most incompetent ones I've ever seen,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: and that covers a lot of ground.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, this is nineteen ninety nine.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: They would have had access to DNA testing and they
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: would have been able to secure crime scene and do
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: a good job forensically speaking. But it's really difficult to
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: know on these cases when they're unsolved. Is the criminal
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: such a mastermind that they were able to dispose of
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: and maybe do forensic countermeasures. Were they a genius or
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: was it just a subpar investigation. And I think a
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: lot of times we end up giving too much credit
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: to the criminals in these unsolved cases. It tends to
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: be sloppy police work, or not investigating it as a
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: crime as they should have. Maybe the way that they
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: approach the crime scene isn't correct, or it's somewhere where
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: they're not used to investigating murder, and people just make
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: mistakes because police departments are made up of humans, and
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: we know that human beings are fallible. So it doesn't
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: really surprise me when you tell me that it's sloppy
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: police work and that this investigation leads something to be desired.
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Definitely, And I think the people working the case now
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: are doing as good a job as they can and
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: seem passionate about solving it. But I think the original
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: investigators did so much damage to the evidence that it's
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: been very difficult to conclusively implicate anyone in this car,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: and that's why it's still unsolved all these years later.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: So our story begins in nineteen ninety nine, and two
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  Speaker 1: of our three victims are thirty eight year old Paul
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Carol Skiba and his nine year old daughter, Sarah Arielskiba.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Paul was born in Centerville, Minnesota, to parents Sharon and
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Carol Joseph Sciba, who went by the name CJ. And
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: he also has a younger brother named Gordon. Paul would
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: relocate to Colorado and currently lives in Thornton, which is
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: part of the Denver metropolitan area. For the past six years,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Paul has been divorced from Sarah's mother, Michelle Russell, who
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: has custody of their daughter and lives in the town
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: of Grahamby, over ninety miles away. The two former spouses
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: have worked out a visitation agreement in which Paul will
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: travel to Grandby to see Sarah every Wednesday, and they
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: will often spend the night in a hotel together. During
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: the school year, Sarah travels to Thornton to see her
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: father every other weekend and also gets to spend some
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: re vacation with him. Paul makes his living running a
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: moving company called TOF Movers, which is located in west Minster,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: another municipality in the Denver metropolitan area. He had previously
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: worked for a number of other moving companies, but when
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: his boss retired, Paul offered to purchase his moving trucks
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: from him and use them to start his own business.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: For the past six years, Paul has also been living
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: with his mother, Sharon, who got divorced from her own
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: husband and decided to relocate from Minnesota to Colorado. Since
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: his job sometimes requires him to work long hours, Paul
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: has offered to take care of his mother in exchange
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: for her helping take care of Sarah whenever she visits.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: At this particular point in time, Paul is also living
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: with twenty eight year old Teresa Donovan, who is described
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: as being Paul's on again, off again girlfriend, and she
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: also has a nearly three month old baby boy, but
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that later on. On Sunday, February seventh,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: Sarah was in Thornton for his scheduled weekend visitation with
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: her father, and while Paul ordinarily did not like to
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: work while she was there, he agreed to cover for
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: an employee and close friend named Jerry Biby, who is
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: busy preparing an upcoming memorial service for his grandfather. Since
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Sharon's own mother recently passed away, she had gone back
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: to Minnesota and was not available to watch over Sarah.
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  Speaker 1: As a result, Sarah would have to spend Sunday accompanying
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: her father on some movie jobs, and they would be
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: assisted by thirty six year old Lorenzo Deshaun Shiver, who
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: has worked for Tough Movers for the past few months.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: Lorenzo has two children of his own, a fifteen year
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: old son named Josh and a twelve year old daughter
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  Speaker 1: named Aubrey. Though he's currently separated from his wife, Misha,
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  Speaker 1: Lorenzo is now living with Teresa Donovan's sister Bobby Joe,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: and while Aubrey is still staying with her mother, Josh
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: is residing at his father's place. So do you get
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: all this, Jewels? Are you confused yet? From all these
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: different relationships?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot going on right that We've
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: got the girlfriend who has the three month old baby boy,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: but we don't know if that's Paul's baby or if
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: this is somebody else's baby. We know that's a tumultuous relationship.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: We've got Paul, who it seems very very busy with
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: his moving company, but he's got Sarah and he's seeing
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: her very often, spending time during weekends and at that hotel.
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  Speaker 2: So he seems like a really dedicated father, and the
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: ex that he was Sarah's mother, that they have a
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: amicable enough relationship that they're able to co parents and
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: do what's best for Sarah. And Sarah's grandmother looks after
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: her most of the time when Paul's moving, and then
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: in exchange, Paul looks after his mother, but this particular time,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: the mother's out of town because the family member passed away.
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  Speaker 3: So then we've got nine year.
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  Speaker 2: Old Sarah who has to go do this move with
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Paul and Lorenzo. And Lorenzo's only been moving for or
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: working for Tough Movers for a few months. He's got
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: kids of his own, and that pretty much sums it
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: up right.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: And also he's lived with Teresa Donovan's sister, Bobby Joe,
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: So these two men are dating two sisters.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of connections here on a lot
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: of moving parts.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Yep. And as we're going to talk about there is
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: speculation that some of these people might be involved in
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: the disappearances. So, even though it sounds confusing, the pieces
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: of the puzzle kind of do come together as we
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: go along. So whenever Paul went out on a job,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: it was standing practice for him to drive to the
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Tough Mover's yard at the corner of seventy second Avenue
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: and Raleigh Street in Westminster and park his car, a
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two Chevelle, and a fenced in lot where
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: he kept his moving trucks. On the morning of February
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: to seventh, Paul and Lorenzo presumably both parked their vehicles
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: there before they left with Sarah in the company's biggest truck,
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  Speaker 1: a white nineteen seventy eight Chevrolet brand with red crescents
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: painted on both sides. According to the timeline, their first
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: moving job took place in Thornton at ten thirty am
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: on the morning of February to seventh, before they headed
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: to Lakewood to have lunch at around twelve fifty. They
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: then spent the rest of the afternoon performing moving jobs
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: in the towns of Morrison and Golden before they headed
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: back to Westminster. It's believed that they arrived at Tough
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Movers at around six fifteen PM, before Sarah made a
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: phone call at six twenty two. Very few details about
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: this call have been released publicly, but according to a
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: CNN article from August of two thousand and nine, Sarah
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: called a twelve year old relative of Teresa Donovan's, but
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: it sounds like this was the last time that any
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: of the three victims were confirmed to be alive. Paul
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: was supposed to drive Sarah back to Granby in order
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: to return her to her mother, Michelle, but they never
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: showed up and Michelle was unable to reach Paul on
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: the phone. Michelle would later say that when she called
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Paul's house, she wound up speaking to Teresa, who sounded
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: very agitated. Sharon Skiba was still in Minnesota and had
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: been expecting a phone call from Paul for reasons we'll
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: get into a bit later, but she also did not
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: hear from them. But the following morning, Sharon received a
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: phone call from Teresa, who was concerned since Paul and
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Sarah had not returned home the previous night. If that
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: wasn't enough, Teresa also heard from her sister Bobby Joe,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: who said that Lorenzo never returned home either. Teresa told
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Sharon that she and Bobby Joe attempted to report Paul, Sarah,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: and Lorenzo missing to the Thornton Police Department, but cannot
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: get them to take her seriously. When Shara decided to
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: call the Thornton PD, she pretty much got the same
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: response as one of the detectives told her that Paul
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: probably took Sarah out for a ride and was having
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: a good time somewhere.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, this just becomes so convoluted when you've got all
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: of these connections.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: It's wild.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Like Teresa is the girlfriend, her sister, Bobby Joe is
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: looking for Lorenzo, and Teresa's waiting for Paul and Sarah
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: to return. And then we have Michelle who hasn't heard
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: from her daughter and doesn't know what the heck is
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: going on. This has got to be a moment of
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: panic for everybody, and to not know where multiple people are.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: It's one thing to have one missing individual, but it's
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: especially troubling when it's three, and when one of them
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: is a nine year old girl.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know that Michelle's first impression was that
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: perhaps Paul, because of their heated custody, Paddle just decided
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: to go off somewhere with Sarah and not returner. But
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: if so, that doesn't really explain why Lorenzo went missing,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: because he would have no reason to abandon his own
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: family because he separated from his own wife. So immediately
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you're thinking, there's no way that these three particular people
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: should disappear together. And that's why it was so frustrating,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: because the police are acting like, well, Paul and Sarah
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: are just off having a good time together, but yeah,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: what about Lorenzo. Would he really agree to accompany them?
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: It's like, what was that line from the case about
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: the pull of the carnival.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, this twelve year old boy went missing because
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: he was seduced by the allure of the carnival and
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: decided to accompany them when they left town, which was
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: absolutely one hundred percent not true.
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of the vibe I'm getting from this.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: It's just it feels like laziness, and we're not looking
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: at like nineteen eighty nine. It's nineteen ninety nine. So
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: when police say that, oh, they're probably just out having fun,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: but like Lorenzo's with them, it doesn't check out and
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I'm sure after a long day of moving, especially one
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: where a nine year old girl has been forced to
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: go along with her father because there wasn't childcare, she's
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: going to be exhausted.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: And want to go home.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't think that they were going to be all
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: out on the town after a day like they've had.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it just didn't make any sense whatsoever. But unfortunately
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: it's going to get a lot worse when it comes
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: to the police investigation. So sometime between nine thirty and
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: ten am on February the eighth, Jerry Biby arrived at
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Tough Movers for what was supposed to be another moving
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: job with Paul and Lorenzo. As recall, Jerry had been
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: scheduled to work the previous day before Paul agreed to
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: take a shift, but on this particular morning, Paul and
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: Lorenzo were not there. Even though Jerry noticed their moving
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: truck inside the parking lot. Jerry found the situation to
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: be a bit odd because even though Paul was a
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: very neat and meticulous person who always backed the truck
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: into its space, the truck was now parked there front
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: first in a very crooked position. When Jerry tried to
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: enter the parking lot, he was surprised to discover that
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the lock on the gate had been changed. He also
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: noticed that Paul and Lorenzo's cars were not parked in
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: the lot, and since they failed to show up, Jerry
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: made his own phone call to the Westminster Police Department
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: in order to report the missing. By this point, Paul
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: had still not returned Sarah to her mother in Granby,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: so Michelle became concerned enough to file a custodial complaint
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: in Grand County District Court, and the Grand County Sheriff's
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Office were also notified about the situation. Paul and Michelle's
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: divorce and their subsequent custody battle for Sarah had been
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: a very bitter and heated one, and since Michelle had
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: recently mentioned the possibility of moving out of state, the
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Sheriff's office initially suspected that a parental abduction had taken
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: place and issued a warrant for Paul's arrest. Indeed, Paul
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: did have a history of scrapes with the law, as
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: eighteen years earlier, while he was still living in Minnesota,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Paul was arrested on a misdemeanor drug charge and decided
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: to skip out on his scheduled court date. He subsequently
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: fled to Denver and started living there under an assumed name,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Craig Nelson, before he was tracked down and arrested. Even
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: though the drug charge didn't stick and Paul never served
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: in ey jail time, he was later charged with a
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: number of other misdemeanor offenses over the years, such as
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: false reporting, disorderly conduct, and marijuana possession, for which he
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: received sentences of probation. While Paul had stayed out of
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: legal trouble for the past several years and developed a
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: reputation as being a responsible and generous business owner who
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: built up strong relationships with his customers, the authority still
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: wondered if he may have attempted to flee the area
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: with Sarah. But of course, the big hole in this
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: theory is that it did not explain Lorenzo's disappearance. By
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: all accounts, Lorenzo was a loving and devoted father who
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: never would have abandoned his own children, and even though
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: he was separated from a wife, Misha, they had recently
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: talked about reconciling.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Well, that gets even messier, especially if we think that
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Teresa could have potentially had something to do with it,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: because if she did, then we've also got Lorenzo who
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: could potentially be leaving her sister. So you could have
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: two women in the same family that could feel jilted
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: in some type of way.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Is that what you're saying pretty much?
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because, as we're going to talk about, Teresa and Bobby,
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Joe would despite some very unusual behavior after Paul and
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Lorenzo went missing, and we're instantly giving off the impression
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: that they just knew that neither of their men were
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: going to be coming back, And they were like, how
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: can you be so certain? Like how can you be
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: sure that Paul and Sarah aren't just out cruising somewhere
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: and we'll return, But they were giving off the impression
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: that they already knew that they were all dead.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems really sketchy. And then when you've got
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: two women where their relationships are up in the air,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: off and on with these men, then that looks like
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: it could be a potential motive for murder. But it's
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: also really terrifying to think that if they did organize
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: something like that and they knew that Sarah was going
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: to be there, or that they didn't call it off
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: when they found out that Sarah would be there. That
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: is ice cold. That is a nine year old child.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: It's one thing to come up with this plan to
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: murder somebody who you love and you feel jilted by.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I don't condone it, but I understand how people get there.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: It's one of the main motives for murder, but it's
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: a whole other thing to murder an innocent child.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk a bit later on about
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: another potential suspect that is believed to possibly be involved
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: in this crime. And the impression I got is that maybe,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: like Teresa and Bobby, Joe, knew that Paul or Lorenzo
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: were going to be killed, but did not expect this
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: person to go so far and to kill Sarah as well.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: And we're not planning this, and it pretty much left
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: them horrified. It instantly put them into cover your ass
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: mode because something that they had planned got way out
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: of control.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. And just to touch on the
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: idea that they had that Michelle, because of Paul's issues
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: with Michelle and they were in this heated custody dispute
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: about Sarah, that he would just run off with Sarah.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't think. Based on everything that you told me,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: it sounds like yes. Like A yes, they were in
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: a heated custody dispute, but b he was still getting
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: to spend a lot of time with Sarah, and he
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: was busy with his job, so it seems like any
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: free time he had he was able to see her.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: So both Michelle and Paul were able to be amicable
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: enough to co parents Sarah even though they were at
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: odds with custody overall. So I just don't see that
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: as a motivation. It's not like Michelle was withholding Sarah
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: from Paul.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: No, definitely not like. Even though the dispute itself had
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: been pretty heated, they did eventually reach an arrangement that
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: seemed to work out, and he was spending a lot
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of time with Sarah. It's not she was just completely
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: holding him back. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't ideal
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: for him to always make ninety mile round trips in
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: order to return Sarah and pick her up from her mother,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: But I don't think it was serious enough that he
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: would decide to break the law and run away with her,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: which would pretty much ensure that if they were caught,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: he would never get to see his daughter again.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: And also like he spent all of this time after,
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: you know, having those kind of precarious years and you know,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: living under the false identity trying to escape this potential
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: drug charge.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Then he builds up this business.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: He seems to really build some integrity and respect within
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: the community as this small business owner who works really hard,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: and he's working really hard, not only for himself.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: But also for Sarah too.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: So to walk away from that and to just live
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: life on the run, it's not a very responsible action
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: for a parent to take. And I understand if you're
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: being alienated or the child is being kept from you entirely,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: but that just wasn't the case here.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Definitely not. And let's also not forget he was taking
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: care of his mother. So is he really just going
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: to run out of town while she's elsewhere and not
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: tell her where she's going and pretty much say you
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: have to fend for yourself now.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: No, definitely not. So was not until February the eleventh,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: four days after the trio went missing, when an officer
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: from the Westminster Police Department agreed to meet Jerry Biby
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: at Tough movers in order to perform a search of
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: the parking lot. Jerry did not have a key to
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: the gate and said he did not want to cut
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the lock for fear of compromising potential evidence, so the
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: visibly annoyed officer decided to slam his car into the fence,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: jump onto the hood, and climb over the gate. Jerry
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: followed him to the parking lot and soon noticed a
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: puddle of motor oil on the ground, which was partially
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: covered with a piece of plywood. When Jerry pointed this
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: out to the officer, he simply brushed it off and replied, quote,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: can you prove that he didn't change his oil? Jerry
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: then went to the moving truck, which had been parked
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: in a crooked position, and when he peeked through the windows,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: he thought the cab looked unusually clean. The officer opened
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: the driver's side door to check inside the cab, but
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: according to Jerry, he only performed a brief cursory search
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: and didn't find anything. Jerry later stated, quote, I feel
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: he destroyed more evidence than he was willing to look at.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: To him, there was nothing unusual there. I was disgusted
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: with him. End quote.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, I mean, I wish that I could say
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: that I was surprised by this, but you already set
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: me up for a really subpar investigation. And it seems
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: like this officer just right from the jump was contaminating
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the scene, was disregarding things, rather than calling for backup
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: and saying, okay, like these are things we might need
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to process, let's tread lightly hear. He was just going
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: in there like willy nilly. And it doesn't seem like
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: things were preserved, it doesn't seem like protocols were followed,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and it appears that early on this whole crime scene
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: has been compromised.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it just says something that the civilian Jerry, is
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: the only one thinking, well, I don't want to break
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: the lock because it's potential evidence, and the officer just
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem to care. And when I reveal some of
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: the things that were mis during this search, it's pretty
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: much going to blow your mind and you're thinking, wow,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: this has to have been the laziest officer ever if
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: you wound up missing these incriminating details. Well, on February
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: the fourteenth, a friend of Paul's name rich Lesmeister, received
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: a phone call from Teresa, who informed him that Paul, Sarah,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: and Lorenzo had gone missing six days ago. Since this
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: was the first time Richard heard about this, he decided
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to get in touch with Paul's mother, Sharon, who had
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: since returned to Thornton from Minnesota, and she expressed her
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: unhappiness about the lack of urgency from law enforcement. In fact,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Sharon was so desperate that she had hired a helicopter
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: to fly over the area and search for Paul's missing
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: car without success. Rich told Sharon that they should perform
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: their own independent search of the tof mover's parking lot
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: and arranged to meet her there with his wife, Carol Lesmeister.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: When they arrived, they noticed that the gate was still locked,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: so Rich and Carroll climbed over the fence. Since Rich
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: was a mechanic, he had recently done some work to
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: install a new engine on another moving truck that Paul
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: kept in the lot. Rich decided to take a close
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: look at the truck and was surprised to discover what
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: appeared to be multiple bullet holes in the side. Carol
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: examined the main moving truck that had been parked in
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: a crooked position, had noticed a smear of blood on
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: one of the doors, which she described as being an
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: imprint from a bloody shirt sleeve. The Copple also found
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: what appeared to be a small chunk of human scalp
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: with hair attached to it near the windshield. Incredibly, this
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: physical evidence had somehow been missed when the officer from
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the Westminster PD performed his original search, so the police
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: were summoned to the scene again. According to Rich, the
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: whole situation escalated into an argument in which the police
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: continued to insist that Paul took off voluntarily, and they
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: threatened to arrest Rich, Carol and Sharon if they did
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: not leave. Believe it or not, they tried to insist
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: that the blood on the truck's door may have been
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: left there by someone who cut themselves. They also theorized
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: that the bullet holes in the other truck had been
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: caused when someone shot at the truck while it was moving,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: even though Rich pointed out that it did not even
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: have a functioning motor at that time. A patrol car
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: from the Thornton Police Department was also summoned to the scene,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: but there was a dispute over who would have jurisdiction
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: over the investigation. While Top Movers was located in Westminster,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: the missing persons reports for Paul, Sarah and Lorenzo had
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: technically been filed in Thornton. The Thornton PD ultimately agreed
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: to head up the investigation and towed the two moving
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: trucks away to examine them as evidence, but they still
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: left the parking lots of Gate wide open and did
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: not secure the scene with crime tape. And I have
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: to say, I love seeing your facial reactions to some
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: of the information that I revealed.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: I'm literally shocked, like you were supposed to let the
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: evidence lead you where it should, but instead they realized
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: from my perspective, that they screwed up initially, and so
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: they came up with this theory that Paul and Sarah
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: were off on their own, and they then have tunnel visions.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: So everything that comes up after has to support that narrative.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: So they have to explain away any bit of evidence,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and it becomes ridiculous. You're trying to explain away bullet
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: holes and blood, and rather than testing it forensically and
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: letting that evidence tell a story, they're coming up with
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: the theory and they're saying it as fact. It is
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: literally blowing my mind and then threatening to arrest them
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: because that what They're being unruly and they're being inconvenient
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: because they're looking for Paul and Sarah and Lorenzo and
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: the police are being absolutely no help. And I can
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: see how this would be jurisdictional issues. You've got the
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: moving company in one place, and then you've got the
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: missing person's filed in another, and so it seems like
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: it's more ideal to have Thornton come and tow these
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: moving vehicles so it can be a mess seated there,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: since they're not the ones that are trying to explain
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: away the blood being smeared on there and bullet holes
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: in such ridiculous ways. But still, like you just point
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: it out at the end, they aren't great either because
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: they're making mistakes straight out right from the jump.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I still didn't understand that logic about the bullet holes, saying, well, oh,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: they were probably weren't fired here, they probably fired at
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the truck while it was moving. Well, that's still a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: bad thing to have bullets fired at your truck. So
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: aren't you a bit more curious where they came from?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: And it sounds like they didn't even attempt to explain
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: where the scout fragment came from. Did they say, oh,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: humans just tend to shed scout fragments randomly from their
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: head and maybe left it at the seat or something
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: like that should be a major red flag that foul
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: play took place.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: This has to be one of the most egregious explanations
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and errors for it's just butt covering, right, Like, how
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: many cases have we done where it looks like it's
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: this giant conspiracy but what it appears to be a
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: giant it's just a lot of butt covering because there
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: were mistakes made early on, so there's doubling down rather
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: than taking accountability. And so when you're doubling down and
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: tripling down on what was really terrible, you end up
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: defending your initial work even though the evidence is to
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: the contrary and it looks like there's some conspiracy, when
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: usually it's just some kind of sloppy police work initially,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: and then there's too much pride involved for them to say, yeah,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: we screwed up, but we're going to do right from
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: here on and actually investigate this, but we're not seeing
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: that here.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I don't think there was a conspiracy.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I really don't think they were trying to cover up
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: to protect the killers. I just think it was stubbornness
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: and incompetence and then them not wanting to admit they
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: were wrong. But this is egregious in any kind of case,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: but I think it's particularly offensive here because you have
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: a nit missing nine year old girl and evidence that
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: she may have been murdered, and you're not even concerned.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: You don't have a conscience over the fact that this
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: girl is missing, her mother is looking for and you're
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: not doing anything to try and find her.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's mind boggling. There's very few cases where I
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: can think off the top of my head that the
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: investigation was so poor and that you are going to
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: point fingers back at the people who are so concerned
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: as to where Paul and Lorenzo and Sarah are and
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: you're going to threaten them that you are going to
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: arrest them, Like, are they that inconvenient? Isn't this your job?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Isn't it your job to investigate disappearances? And if there
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: is forensics at a scene, like you said, okay, you
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: want to try to explain away the blood. Somebody could
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: have white blood on a vehicle. It sounds ridiculous, but okay,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: but a piece of a scalp. Yeah, like we humans,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: we don't shed chunks of scalp. That's just it's literally
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: not a thing that we do.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: No, So, yeah, it sounds like a Fobby Molk thing,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: doesn't it kind of excuse he would come off as.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like the Fobby Malk school of run
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: the investigation.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: So Paul's father c J and his brother Gordon soon
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: made the trip to Colorado, and since Paul's family and
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: friends obviously did not have much faith in law enforcement,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: they decided to perform their own search for Paul and
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Lorenzo's missing vehicles. On February seventeenth, Jerry Biby discovered Lorenzo's
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: car in the parking lot of an apartment complex located
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: at thirty eight oh nine sixth Avenue in Westminster, which
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: was several blocks away from tof movers. On February twenty seventh,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: the Denver Police Department found Paul's nineteen seventy two Chevelle
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: in the parking lot of another apartment complex at thirty
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: one twenty nine Arkansas Avenue in Denver. The vehicle contained
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Paul's personal belongings in Sarah's backpack, but even though Paul
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: usually kept it very clean, there was mud all over
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the exterior. Paul and Lorenzo's cars were both white, clean
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: of fingerprints and did not contain any useful physical evidence,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: and no tangible links were found between the victims and
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: either of the apartment complexes. Since Sharon was hoping to
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: keep tough movers afloat during her son's absence, she asked
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the Thorn PD to return the two moving trucks when
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: they were done analyzing them for evidence. So even though
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: they complied, Sharon was horrified to discover that one of
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: the trucks still had bits of scalp a hair stuck
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: to the hood. Surprise, surprise, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: finally became involved in the case and performed their own
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: forensic analysis of the main moving truck. The US lumin
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: all the fine traces of additional blood in the cab
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and the back of the truck, and they uncovered an
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: additional hare on the fender. The CBI also found traces
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: of blood in the parking lot, which someone had attempted
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: to cover up with the puddle of motor oil, and
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: the peace of plywood. DNA testing would later confirm that
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: the piece of scalp belonged to Paul, the hair on
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the fender belonged to Sarah, and blood from the scene
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: belonged to both of them. None of the physical evidence
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: could be matched to Lorenzo, but regardless, the CBI now
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: believed that all three missing individuals had become the victims
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: of foul play, so Paul's arrest warrant for parental abduction
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: was canceled. The truck de by ten foot metal extension
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: ramp was missing, along with some moving blankets, so investigators
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: suspected that these items may have contained additional physical evidence
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: and that the truck was used to dispose of the
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: victim's bodies. There was vegetation in the truck's radiator to
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: suggest that it had recently been near a body of water,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: so one theory was that the missing extension ramp was
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: used to submerge the victim's bodies. A witness would come
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: forward to report having heard a woman's scream near Tough
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Movers on the evening of February seventh. Additional witnesses also
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: recalled having seen the moving truck exiting the parking lot
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: at around seven or eight pm that night, before it
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: was returned there at around midnight. This timeline suggested that
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the bodies were taken no more than a couple hours
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: from Westminster. So over the next several months, law enforcement
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: dredged a number of different lakes in the area. They
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: utilized the search. They utilized the services of Necrosearch, a
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: company with specializes in the recovery of human remains, but
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: they were unable to turn up the three victims or
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: any additional evidence.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: Wow, absolutely unhinged the amount of evidence that they found.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: With Paul's scalp, we've got Farah's hair. We don't have
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: anything from Lorenzo, but investigators aren't suspecting that Lorenzo had
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: anything to do with this. They're believing from the jump
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: that he too was a victim, and that we've seen
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: that some of it has been wiped clean of fingerprints,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: and so they weren't able to find any useful fingerprints
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: on either Paul or Lorenzo's cars.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: And then we.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Also have the blood that's mixed with motor oil and
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: covered with plywood, which seems to be a strange, like
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: last minute maybe impulsive forensic countermeasure. This is just a
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: real mess of a case. I don't know what to
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: make of this, except for I am very curious as
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: to what type of bodies of water were nearby that
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: they could have possibly submerged the bodies into if this
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: theory is indeed correct.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the good thing is that after this
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: uncompetent police investigation at the start, the Colorado Bureau of
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: Investigation seemed to be doing a very thorough job, because,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: like I just mentioned, they checked all these bodies of
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: water and found nothing. So we don't know if that
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: theory is correct that they were submerged, but it would
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: make a lot of sense. And it is just so
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: outrageous because there is just so much obvious evidence of
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: foul play which somehow got missed the first times around
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: by the local police, because that oil was seen by
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: the original officer who was at the scene, but he
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: just completely ignored it and just thought that Paul had
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: been changing the motor oil in one of his vehicles
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: and it was left there and didn't bother to move
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: one piece of plywood to see that, oh it was
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: being used to conceal blood. So you're seeing all this
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: forensic evidence, and you're thinking to yourself, Wow, if they
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: had just investigated this immediately and secured it as a
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: crime scene, they may have found DNA belonging to a
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: perpetrator or found something to incriminate a suspect. But because
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: of all this lost time, it just seems that the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: perpetrator at ample time to cover their tracks and just
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: got very, very lucky. Because even though there are signs
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: that points to it being an organized hit, it also
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: looks very sloppy and disorganized.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I think the subpar investigation can make the killers look
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: more organized because it's like, wow, look they got away
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: without leaving all this evidence, and it's like, no, there
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: probably was that evidence. It just wasn't collected and processed properly.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: And so in the event of an investigation like that,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: it's very easy to look at it and go wow,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: like they were very organized, But it just doesn't seem
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: like that is the case. The fact that they left
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: forensic evidence, Like sure, Paul and Lorenzo's cars might have
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: been wiped, but they're leaving blood, scalp and hair, and
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: they're removing like carpet bits from the vehicle. So some
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: things obviously they had to use in the cleanup, and
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: then we have the possibility that they could be put
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: into water, and like, what do you think the chances are.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: I always think of the daniellebo and Richard Petrone case
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: or Patrone because I think there's like a fifty percent
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: chance that they could be in a body of water
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: and that they just never have been located. And we
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: see in searches on land that people can search all
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: in a certain area and very easily miss human remains.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: So I would think, even though we've got neck research
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: who are very very capable, that nothing is foolproof. Like
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: you can't say just because we searched this area, we
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: were one hundred percent sure that there is no bodies there.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, you've heard of the organization Adventures with Purpose,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: right that over the past several years they have found
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: like so many submerged cars after performing their own independent
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: investigation of bodies of waters, and more often than not
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: they contain like missing persons who have been gone, some
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: of them as early as like the sixties or seventies.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: So I think that this was back in like nineteen
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: ninety nine, and forensics says advanced, so maybe if Adventures
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: with Purpose did secondary searches and new searches of these
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: bodies of water, maybe they would find the bodies attached
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: to the moving ramp, because it's still like not as
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: big as a car, like a car as much easier
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: to find in a body of water, where I can
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: see that a ramp containing three the remains of three
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: people attached to it still could be missed even if
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: a search effort was performed.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: And what is your take on the number of people
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that it would take to carry something like this out,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Because we have three individuals. One's a nine year old girl,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: so her remains would be very light, but we have
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: two full grown men. And even if you're wrapping them
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: in carpet and you're hauling them into another vehicle to
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: dispose of them, it would seem like this would be
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: a pretty arduous endeavor for one individual to do.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I definitely agree that multiple people were involved,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and we've already cast suspicion about Teresa, but she struggled
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: with arthritis in her legs, so it was not easier
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: for her to move around, So I definitely do not
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: think that she could have moved three bodies and covered
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: up crime scene herself, and she would have at least
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: had help. I mean, if Teresa was involved, I'm not
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: sure if she was present when all this took place,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: she could have said it in motion, but it seems
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: reasonable that like multiple people had to have been involved
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: in covering it up, and if somehow managed to stay
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: silent about it for twenty seven years.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I just want to call back to one thing
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: that you shared about the ear witness hearing a woman's scream.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: So I always find the gendering of a scream really interesting,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: like a woman's scream versus a man's scream versus maybe
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: a young child's scream. So I'm really wondering if that
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: scream that was heard could have been Paul or Lorenzo
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: or Sarah, or if it was Teresa or Bobby Joe
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: who was there. It doesn't mean that they had to
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: themselves be involved in any murders, but imagine if you're
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Teresa or Bobby Joe and you're seeing somebody carry this out,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: you realize that Sarah's there, and then you see Sarah
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: get killed, and you're not expecting that you very well
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: could scream.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was going to talk about that in more
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: detail later on on our next episode. But that's what
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I always felt, is that I find it interesting that
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the sources describe it specifically as a woman's scream, not
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: a girl's scream, which makes me think that they're not
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: referring to the scream of a child of Sarah, and
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: that I do agree that perhaps maybe like Teresa or Bobby,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Joe or someone else was there who may have been
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: involved in the murders but was not expecting like things
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: to get so out of hand, and that's what caused
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: them to scream. So while law enforcement has never publicly
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: named her as a suspect or person of interest, the
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: individual who has been the brunt of the most speculation
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: is Teresa Donovan, whom we previously described as Paul's on again,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: off again girlfriend in early nineteen ninety eight. The couple
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: had been broken up for several months, but decided to
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: get together and have sex one night, and a few
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: weeks later, Teresa announced that she was pregnant. Since she
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: struggled with arthritis in her legs, Teresa was on disability
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: and unable to work, so Paul rented her a trailer
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: to live in for the next several months, but when
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: November rolled around, Paul areed to allow Teresa to move
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: in with them, and she soon gave birth to a
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: boy named Paul Roger. Even though Paul signed the child's
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: birth certificate and allowed him to go by the name
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Paul Roger Sciba, he would later question Paul Roger's paternity
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: and tell friends that he wasn't entirely sure he was
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: the boy's father. Regardless, Paul still allowed Teresa and Paul
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Roger to remain at his house because he did not
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: believe Teresa was a stable mother and wanted to keep
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: an eye on the child. Paul claimed that there were
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: numerous occasions which he were turned home from work to
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: find Teresa either sleeping or partying with one of their
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: neighbors while neglecting Paul Roger. Of course, Sharon was also
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: living there at the time and did not get along
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: with Teresa, and whenever Sarah visited, Teresa would sometimes get
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: her to watch over the baby while she went out.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: The week before he went missing, Paul drove Sharon to
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: the airport for a trip to Minnesota and told her
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: he was planning to break up with Teresa for good.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: He was also going to ask a lawyer to file
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: papers seeking an eternity test for Paul Roger, and if
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: it turned out he was the child's father, Paul planned
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: to fight for full custody. On Friday, February the fifth,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: two days before his disappearance, Paul phoned Sharon in Minnesota
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: had informed her that he had officially ended things with Teresa.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: It was demanding that she moved out of the house
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: before Sunday night. Paul asked if Sharon could return home
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: as quickly as possible so she could watch over Sarah
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: on Sunday, but since Sharon was still taking care of
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: a number of things from her own mother's death, she
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: was unable to do so. Paul told Sharon that he
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: would call her on Sunday night to let her know
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: when Teresa had moved out, but of course, Sharon never
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: heard from him again, and then learned that Paul and
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Sarah had gone missing when Teresa called her the following morning.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: Wow, this is a lot that.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Seems like quite a coincidence, doesn't it.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: It does, It truly does.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And also I feel like for Teresa it must have
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: felt like the walls were closing in and we don't
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: know if Paul was or wasn't.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: The father of Paul Roger.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: But if Teresa believed that he wasn't, and or even
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: if she believed that he was, there's two different options.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: So if he was the father, then Teresa thought that
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: maybe her free ride or maybe her maybe Paul supporting
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: her and supporting her lifestyle and her partying and all that,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: and her mother and Paul's mom watching over Sharon watching
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: over Paul Roger, well she partied. I mean, keeping in mind,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Teresa's only twenty eight years old, so she's young and
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: she's not making very good choices. But Paul is older
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: and more mature, and you know, he had his own past,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: but he's now grown to a point where he realizes
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: how important it is to be a present father. And
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: if Paul Roger's his baby, he's going to step up
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: to the plate and give this baby a stable environment.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: But I think it speaks to the type of person
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: that Paul is that even though he he has a
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: strong belief or it seems like a sense that Paul
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Roger isn't his, he still allows him to stay at
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: his home to have his mother look after him because
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: he knows that Teresa isn't stable, and so if it
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: isn't his child, then I think maybe Teresa wonders, like,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: when is Paul going to tire of us? And so
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: if she's unstable, if she's using alcohol and drugs, and
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: we don't know if she's dealing with some type of
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: mental health issues, then it could be a situation where
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: she could have anger and resentment building towards Paul, even
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: though from our standpoint when we're looking at their relationship,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: all we see is this really great guy who's stepping
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: up to the plate and taking care of a baby
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: that he doesn't even know if it's his or not.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Like that says so much about Paul's character
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: that he couldn't stand Teresa at this point, but he
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: still was willing to tolerate her just so that he
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: can make sure that the baby was safe. But he
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: had finally reached the end of his row and gave
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: her an ultimatum that she had to get out, and
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: just by pure chance, he happens to go missing and
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: lo and behold to Reesa still winds up hanging around
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: at the house for the next several months. So it
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: was very convenient for her and makes me think that
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: even if she wasn't present when Paul's disappearance took place,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: that she could have set it in motion because she
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: knew that her mail ticket was going to send her
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: out under the streets.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Quick question. I don't know if you know the answer
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: to this, but what type of associations did Teresa have?
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Like if she was out partying all the time, and
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: she was like neglecting her baby, passing out while she's
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: at home with her child, and then just like leaving
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Paul Roger with Sharon so she could go out and
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: do whatever she was doing, it seems like there's a
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: possibility that she could have had access to individuals that
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: might not have necessarily been like the best type of people.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Maybe they would be people who would be the type
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: of people who who might say like, oh, yeah, like
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: I could help you with your situation type of a deal.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, we're going to talk about that momentarily. She
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: had at least one person in her life who was
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: not very stable and I think would have been capable
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: of committing a crime like this. So it's also worth
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: mentioning that on the evening of Saturday, February the sixth,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Paul agreed to let Jerry Bibby drop off as eleven
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: year old son Matthew at his place so he could
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: watch over him. Matthew would later say that Paul and
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: Teresa got into such a heated argument that he and
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Sarah decided to go outside and hide in a playhouse.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: After Paul and Sarah disappeared, Jerry claimed that when he
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: spoke to Teresa, she mentioned that she had gone to
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Tough Movers on the evening of February seventh, but asked
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: him not to tell the police. Now you might recall
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: that Teresa's sister, Bobby Joe, had been living with Lorenzo Shiver.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: On the day after Lorenzo went missing, his wife, Misha,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: said that she spoke to Bobby Joe on the phone,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: who told her quote, I know he's not coming home.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: I know something horrible has happened to him. End quote.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: At the time, their teenage son Josh, had been living
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: with Lorenzo and Bobby Joe, but when Lorenzo failed to
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: return home, Josh spent the next few days staying with
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: his mother. On February the twelve, Josh and Misha paid
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: a visit to Lorenzo's residence in order to pick up
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: some of Josh's clothes, but were surprised to discover that
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: Bobby Joe had already packed up everything from Josh's room
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: in the boxes and placed them by the door. It
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: seemed apparent that Bobby Joe wanted Josh to move out
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: permanently because she was certain his father was not coming back,
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: so there was speculation that she knew more about the
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: disappearances than she was letting on.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, what other case did we see this
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: happen in? There was another one that we covered where
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: the father had died and then the poor son all
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: wasn't allowed to access the residence after.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Oh that was the Patrese Andris case from the next
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Flix version of Unsolved Mysteries where he did that creepy
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: interview on the show where he pulled out his wife's
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: ashes and talked about how he liked to cuddle them
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: at night and stuff. And yes, it was one where
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: she had a teenage son and the same day that
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: she went missing, he changed the locks on the house
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: and wouldn't let the teenage son come in in order
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: to collect his things, which showed that he already knew
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: that she was not coming back. Alive and immediately kicked
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: out her son.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so bizarre and not like, oh I
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: have a sense or I have a feeling that something
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: bad happened, just like, hey, I know that something bad happened.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: It's like, how do you have this information, Bobby Joe.
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: It's a little bit odd.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, especially Lorenzo, a guy who has no criminal history,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: doesn't have a like, in a known association with criminals
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: or doing drugs or anything like that. So why would
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: you be so sure and that after he went on
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: a routine moving job that he would just never come
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: back and he had been killed.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Especially when we couple what Bobby Joe said with Teresa
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: being given that ultimatum and just the timing of it all,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: it's all very suspicious. M hm.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Definitely.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: So.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: After Paul vanished, Terisa and her baby continued living at
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: his residents along side Sharon, but when they finally moved out,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: Sharon changed the locks. Even though Sharon had been appointed
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: to be temporary conservator of Paul's estate, Teresa would eventually
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: go to court to argue that since Sarah had gone
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: missing alongside Paul, Paul Roger was technically his only living heir,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: which meant that she should have control of Paul's assets.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: If Teresa was legally Paul's wife, she could become the
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: new conservator of his estate. While they never officially got married,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Teresa argued that they were planning to do so after
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: the baby was born, and that Paul had bought her
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: a ring at a half priced jewelry sale. However, when
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: the matter went to court, a number of rebuttal witnesses
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: were called upon to testify, and they all disputed Teresa's claims,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: maintaining that Paul never had any intention of marrying her.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: The judge ultimately ruled that there was no evidence of
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: a common law mariller relationship between Paul and Teresa, so
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Sharon was appointed permanent conservator of his estate. However, since
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: Paul had signed Paul Rogers's birth certificate, Sharon would be
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: responsible for paying monthly child support to Teresa.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Sharon tried to keep Tough Movers in operation, it proved
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: to be too much work for so the company would
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: dissolve and things reached the point where Sharon no longer
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: had the money to keep paying child support. As a substitute,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: the court allowed Teresa to take Paul's car and any
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: merchandise she wanted from his house.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm confused a little bit here, so hopefully
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: you can elucidate the situation for me. Why did Sharon
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: have to pay child support? Is it because she inherited
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: a chunk of Paul's estate and then it was decided
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: that pieces of that had to be given to Paul
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Roger because of the birth certificate? Or is it something about,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: like I've just never heard of the grandmother after the
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: death of her son then having to pay child support
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: to the mother.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the first time that I've heard it,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: But I think it was just kind of like a
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: situation where Sharon, she was appointed permanent conservator and even
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: though they had not proven that Paul was the biological
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: father of Paul Roger, he had signed the birth certificate
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: and so in their eyes, Sharon would be responsible. I mean,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: maybe this is a law that varies from state to state,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: but I guess just because of how things were arranged
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: in the court and the fact that they wanted Paul
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Roger to technically be Paul's air, they pretty much felt
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: that well, since Paul can't pay child support himself, I
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: guess because Sharon is conservator of his a state, she's
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: now responsible for it and that's what she had to do.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: But who knows. Maybe this is just a Colorado thing.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Maybe this is something that just varies from state to state,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: but it is unusual. But maybe it just is something
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: that we've never heard of before because it doesn't happen
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: in Canada and maybe other parts of the states.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the first case I've ever heard of it happening.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: And I guess it would make sense if you are
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: paying the making those payments from Paul's estate, not taking
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: personal responsibility for them, right, Like do you know what
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: I mean? Like if you're looking at it like it's
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: limiting your personal liability, But you're looking at that a
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: state as if it's a business and that business has
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: to pay out X amount of dollars until the funds
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: run dry in the business, and then you don't have
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: the personal responsibility because it would seem odd to then
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: have the responsibility for making monthly payments go to Paul's
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: elderly mother whom he was helping take care of. But
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: I really do feel for sharing here because Paul worked
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: so hard to make tough movers a successful business, and
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: it seems like he really had this incredible growth and
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: maturity over the years. He had his legal issues, but
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: he proved that like people can change and.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Grow and evolve.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: And then for Sharing to really try so hard to
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: keep tough movers afloat and then not to be able
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: to do it, because, for one, you don't have Lorenzo
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: work there, and you don't have Paul, So Sharon can't
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: exactly step in and do the work that her son did.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: She was getting older and obviously had some kind of
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: health issues or challenges that would have made that difficult.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: But I commend her for making the effort to try
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: to do that and to try to keep her son's
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: memory alive through his business.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, this is one of the worst examples I've
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: seen of a missing person's relatives having a really tough
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: time after they went missing and having like a whole
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: bunch of financial problems and liability issues because they were
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: trying to keep like the business afloat. They were trying
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: to make sure that Paul Roger was taken care of.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: And I have no idea if Sharon personally suspected Teresa,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: but just imagine if she did that. Teresa was the
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: one who murdered her son, and I still have to
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: keep paying her money every month so she could take
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: care of the child. So it's kind of a catch
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: twenty two where she wants Paul Roger to be taken
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: care of, but she still has to go through like
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: the horrific thing of possibly handing over money to her
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: son murderer.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, we've seen that in so many cases though,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: where we've seen the grandparents have a scenario where they
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: believe that the remaining parent had something to do with
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: the murder of their child, whether it's the mother or
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: the father, and so they have to either make a deal,
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: to take a stand and to be very outspoken about
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: their belief in the guilt of that individual, which then,
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: of course they withhold the children, the grandchildren from the grandparents,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: or they bite their tongues, they say nothing, even though
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: they believe that they believe that keeping that relationship with
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: their grandchildren supersedes them getting any sort of justice. And
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that any one decision is right or wrong.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: It's very much an individual thing and I would never
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: judge somebody for their decision. But my god, I do
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: not envy Sharon in this situation, and when it comes
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: down to it, she still she doesn't know if Paul
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Roger is her biological grandchild or not. So.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Over the next few years, Teresa would make appearances on
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: The Montel Williams Show and an MSNBC special about the case.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: While she admitted that law enforcement had once given her
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: a polygraph and told her that she failed, she denied
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: any involvement in the disappearances of Paul, Sarah, and Lorenzo.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: In fact, she presented her own theory that the Trio
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: were murdered by drug dealers, alleging that Paul had been
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: renting them out parking spaces at Tough Movers, but they
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: got angry when they had their vehicles towed. She stated, quote,
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: they sold Paul drugs and they were the only people
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: that could have killed him. I don't know if it
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: was over the cars or anger over Paul trying to
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: get over the coke. Well. Even though Paul's friends and
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: family did not buy this theory, there was at least
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: one investigator who seemed to believe it. Three years after
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Lorenzo went missing, his son Josh turned eighteen, so Misha
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: asked Detective Pat Long of the Thornton PD for a
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: meeting in which you could tell them the full truth
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: about what happened. Well. Long agreed to the meeting and
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: informed them that Paul had been using his business as
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: front for narcotics and got mixed up with the wrong people,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: So Lorenzo was an innocent victim who was in the
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: wrong place at the wrong time. Long later repeated this
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: theory to the media, and while he said that Paul
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: only sold marijuana had had a small client base, Paul's
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: family continued to dispute this. They acknowledged that Paul smoked marijuana,
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: that never did so around Sarah and did not believe
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: he would have dealt drugs or done anything to put
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: his daughter in danger.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, he sold marijuana in Colorado. It tends to
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: be one of the more progressive states. And I don't
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: know what year they legalized it or decriminalized it, but
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: I do know that like they're more in line like Colorado, California,
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: Like they're more in line with the way that Canada
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: was with weed back in the days. So it just
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem all that serious to me. And like, if
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: you told me that he was selling bricks of cocaine
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: or heroine or ecstasy or whatever out of his van.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: I would think he would be dealing with much seedier individuals,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: but it sounds like he sold to very specific people
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: whom he knew. And you're not going to be dealing
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: with the underbelly of society if you've got this very
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: small client base and you're selling marijuana.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like, ooh, he lets the marijuana sellers
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: and dealers use his parking spaces and they decided to
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: kill him because he told them not to do that.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: That just seems like such an escalation. And my big
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: problem with this theory is that it was provided by
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: a member of the Thornton Police Department, and as you recall,
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: they were one of the police departments who screwed things
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: up so badly during the early stages of the investigation
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: before the Colorado Bureau of Investigation finally righted the whole thing.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: So it makes me think that maybe this detective is
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: trying to take the blame off their screw ups by
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: saying that, oh, it's Paul's fault he was dealing drugs.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: He paved the way for his own murder to kind
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: of allege all the guilt over them having batched the
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: investigation so badly, and that's why the Sea to be
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: the only law enforcement official who has gone on the
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: record and accuse Paul of this, because no one else
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: seems to believe it.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: It seems like an unhinged theory and that you're really
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: trying to blame the victim here, And like we said earlier,
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I think it comes down to a lot of butt
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: covering and you're trying to almost like vilify Paul so
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: that it takes the pressure and the blame off of
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: you for getting it wrong and doing a subharer investigation
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: where you had the potential to be able to gather
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: the forensic evidence to solve this, but it just wasn't
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: approached properly. So it's like, well, let's just blame the victim.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: It's not like he was dealing with people who were
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: doing crystal meth. I could almost believe it. If you
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: were to change the marijuana to crystal meth, I would think, Okay,
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: that's a possibility.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: You're going to deal with like very.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Impulsive people who potentially haven't slept for days, maybe dealing
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: with mental health issues, So it could be a perfect storm.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: But you don't hear a people who were using marijuana
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: on a very regular basis being incredibly impulsive and murderous
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: and committing a litany of crimes. It's just not typical.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: And I don't think a meth or marijuana user are
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: going to go to the trouble of disposing of the
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: body so thoroughly. If they commit a crime like this,
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: they're probably just going to do it in a panic
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: and run away and not go out of the way
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: to try to cover up the crime.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: No, that speaks to somebody who's fairly lucid, lucid enough
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: to think, oh God, we have to do some friends
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: of countermeasures here or we could potentially get caught.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: So there was also some suspicion directed towards Teresa's brother,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Tom Donovan, who was known for having hot temper. Tom
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: had previously worked for Tough Movers, but Paul fired him
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: a few months before he went missing. According to Jerry Biby,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: after the disappearances took place, there was an incident where
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: he was driving his truck and Tom suddenly threw rocks,
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: will shouting quote your next, your next. Sharon also claimed
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: that she received a threatening phone call from Tom, who
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: told her he was glad Paul was dead. Tom often
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: said that both Paul and Sarah had been shot in
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: the head and the same thing was going to happen
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: to Sharon. Tom later took Sharon and Jerry to court
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: over a debt that he said Jerry owed him. At
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: one point, they saw Tom pointing his hand at Sharon
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: like a gun and pretending to fire at her. Well.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: On June the twenty fourth, twenty eleven, Tom found himself
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: in serious legal trouble when he was charged with attempted
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: first degree murder. At the time, Tom had been living
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: at a motel in Arvada, which is also part of
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: the Denver metropolitan area, but after he was evicted, he
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: went to see his fifty nine year old mother, Kathleen
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Williams van Diver. Tom got angry and blamed his mother
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: for his living situation, and things escalated the point where
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: he grabbed two knives from the kitchen and proceeded to
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: stab Kathleen five times. Even though Kathleen suffered a punctured
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: long and lacerated liver, she wound up surviving. It's been
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: reported that Tom had an extensive hit history of drug abuse,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: mental illness, and non compliance with taking his medication. So
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: after he was arrested for the attack on his mother,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: his defense attorney entered a plea of not guilty by
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: reason of insanity. However, after evaluating his medical records, a
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: psychiatrist ruled that Tom was legally sane, so in August
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: of twenty fourteen, he went on trial for attempted first
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: degree murder, where he was found guilty and received a
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: twenty eight year prison sence. Tom is still incarcerated today,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: but thus far no evidence has been found to link
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: him to the disappearances of Paul, Sarah and Lorenzo.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Well, just because no evidence has been found, like the
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: absence of evidence in this case, isn't the evidence of
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: absence because we have an investigation that is incredibly lacking,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: and police officers and different departments in different places that
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: seemed to be wanting to pass the buck blame the victim.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: So Tom, to me is founding like the best suspect.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: We've got Tom, Teresa, Bobby, Joe, We've got a trio
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: people who could have potentially been involved. One of the
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: two women could have been the one who screamed, and
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Tom seems like he's just volatile enough, given that he's
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: dealing with substance use disorder and mental health issues. And
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: he stabbed his own mother. I mean, I don't know
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: what type of mother Kathleen was, but she certainly didn't
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: deserve to be stabbed and have her liver lacerated. So
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: that is horrific. And I'm also not surprised because the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: definition of what is insanity in the United States seems
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: to be a lot more narrow than potentially other places.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: I always think back to you'll remember this case, the
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: greyhound bus case.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, name right.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And he basically decapitated somebody on
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: a greyhound bus. But he was wasn't He found to
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: be criminally insane at the.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Time he was, so he is no longer incarcerated. He
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: was released after serving only a few years.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the case that I always think of
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: when somebody to do something like that, and you would
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: definitely have to be in a place where you did
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: not have your faculties. But it is incredibly difficult even
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: if you're somebody who deals with mental health issues and
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: you commit a crime in the US, seems to be
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: very hard to say that you were insane at the.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Time, definitely, and Tom definitely fits the profile of someone
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: who could commit a crime like that. And maybe a
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: case where Teresa only asked him to kill Paul and
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: not harm Sarah, or maybe a thing where she just said,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: rough up Paul a little bit and make him change
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: his mind about kicking me out of the house, and
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: then she was just taken by complete surprise when her
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: brother decided to kill three people, including a nine year
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: old child, and that could explain the source of the
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: screen they heard. So yeah, it does only make sense
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: to me if this is what happened, and I'm sure
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: Tom had people help him cover up the crime if
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: he was responsible. But it also seems surprising that these
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: people who do not exactly seem to be criminal masterminds
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: would be able to keep their mouth shut for so
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: many years and not leave any incriminating evidence behind.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: It's true, but if we have Tom, who seems to
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: be somehow into the drug world, he might have sketchy
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: associates who weren't attached to this case in any way,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: shape or form. Tom didn't bring them up, and so police,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: as we know, didn't do a great investigation. There could
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: just be a bunch of people out there who.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: Have information who've just never been questioned.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm wondering as well, that maybe they have
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: some associates who have just never popped up on the radar,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: and that's why they've never cracked or done anything to
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: implicate themselves in this crime. So I think that about
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: brings an end to Part one. Join us next week
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: as we present part two of our series about the
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: disappearances of Paul Skiba, Sarah Sciba, and Lorenzo Shiver.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers
• 1:04:10
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• 1:04:13
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• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: which I talk about cases which are not featured on
• 1:04:23
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• 1:04:26
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• 1:04:39
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• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: first episode that I did a commentary track over was
• 1:04:55
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• 1:05:01
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• 1:05:05
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• 1:05:07
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• 1:05:09
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• 1:05:21
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• 1:05:23
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• 1:05:25
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• 1:05:27
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  Speaker 2: Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy