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Broadway to Behind Bars to Paying it Forward: The Brad Rouse Story · Nightmare Success In and Out

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What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
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nightmares to set yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
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topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
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survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
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sometimes sad, there's some humor, but hopefully you can
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come away with a nugget of something that'll help you knock
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down some of the prisons you built up in your own mind.
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All right, welcome back nightmare success in and out.
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Listeners, I know this is where you come from.
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What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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So I've got something today that I'm very excited about because I
0:55
was just talking to my guest, Brad Rouse.
0:58
He's a theater guy. He's coming to us from New York,
1:01
NY, and I don't think I've had a a real theater guy on here.
1:07
And I love for those who listen I I was a political science
1:12
theater minor. So Brad went way farther than I
1:16
could have thought I could have ever gone, but he's, he's here
1:20
today. He's got an incredible story.
1:24
Just to give you a little bit of background, I've when Brad and I
1:28
were talking, we found out, yeah, he's in New York, NY and
1:31
yeah, he went to Harvard and all that, but we're from Saint
1:34
Louis. We're from Saint.
1:35
We're Saint Louis. Guys, He's he's a few years
1:38
behind me, but yeah, we, we kind of grew up in the same, same
1:41
area, same space, same, same area of school districts.
1:46
So, yeah, small world stuff. But yeah, Eric, he, when I say
1:52
that he, he, he was, he went to Harvard and got his BA in
1:56
English. And then I thought it was really
1:59
cool that he, he won the Louis Sudler Prize for the most
2:04
outstanding artist, artistic talent and achievement.
2:07
He went on to New York City. He directed the world premiere
2:11
of the Billy Porter's Ghetto Superstar at the Public Theatre.
2:16
Brad's stage work has been featured on CBS, 60 Minutes,
2:19
NPR, All Things Considered, and he's most recently in 2018, the
2:25
Off Broadway Alliance nominated Brad's production of Goldstein
2:30
for best musical, best new musical.
2:33
And I thought it was interesting too, that Brad, he assisted
2:37
Broadway legend Hall Prince, which led him to a lot of
2:40
different places and worked on Broadway and Lincoln Center and
2:42
Kennedy Center and others. So he's been all around and what
2:46
I think is really cool. Obviously Brad and I are
2:49
returning citizens just as impacted.
2:51
And those both went and served time.
2:54
But a lot of times when you come out of prison, you have to
2:57
figure out like, what do you do with can you go back to this, to
3:01
where you were? Can you go back to exactly what
3:03
you were doing? Some people can and some people
3:06
repurpose what their talents are and, and that's what I really
3:10
love about what Brad's been able to do.
3:12
He's taking his creative mind, his writing ability and he helps
3:17
write narratives, mentors people, criminal defendants who
3:21
are preparing through the pre sentencing report.
3:24
And it's such an important part of this whole experience that we
3:27
go through when we get into the situation of that experience.
3:32
And Brad has taken all those talents that he has and gets in
3:35
real close with the people, understands their story and puts
3:37
it in the words that can be understood and heard the right
3:40
way that people want to be heard.
3:42
And he does this with White Collar Advice, which is a great
3:45
company. I know Justin, who the founder
3:48
and he's been on the show and and they they help a lot of
3:50
people. So I can't wait to jump into all
3:53
this with Brad. Before we do, I want to
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Auto Plaza Direct. Tell them Brent from Nightmare
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Success sent you. Welcome in Brad Rouse.
4:38
How are you? I'm doing great today.
4:41
Great to talk to you, great to be here.
4:43
And you know, what's cool is for those that are watching this on
4:46
the Spotify or YouTube, Brad actually looks like he's in New
4:50
York, NY. He's got the cool bookcase
4:53
behind him. He's, you know, it's kind of
4:55
looks like it's got kind of a tall ceiling.
4:57
It's, it's, it's that New York look.
5:00
But he can't help it. He's still from Saint Louis.
5:02
He's just he's got the cool factor of of the East Coast guy
5:05
now. So Brad, this.
5:08
Apartment in 1997, Yeah, ever since it's 6th floor walk up in
5:13
Greenwich Village. That's the same apt I got
5:16
arrested out of and thankfully he was here when I got out and
5:20
hopefully I'll be here for as long as I can climb these
5:22
stairs. That's awesome.
5:24
There was a great place in Greenwich Village that had
5:27
burritos that you could walk up to.
5:29
And I can't remember what that burrito stand was called, but
5:32
that's there's some really good places to eat around where you
5:34
are. My brother used to live up
5:37
around there. Brad, take us back a little bit.
5:42
Before you became this New York, NY guy, before you went to
5:45
Harvard, what was life like for you growing up as a kid and, and
5:50
your mom, dad, siblings, What, what all was going on in your
5:53
life growing up? Listen, I lived in a middle
5:57
class suburb, went to a public high school, Parkway North High
6:01
school. Shout out to the Parkway North.
6:03
St. Louis, MO, And, you know, my
6:08
father worked at Washington University.
6:10
He was a professor. He also was a Dean there.
6:13
My mother ran the early childhood programs at Ferguson
6:16
Florissant School District. I'm the middle three boys.
6:20
My grandparents were supportive. We went to Episcopal Church.
6:23
I did Boy Scouts. I did a lot of music, sang in
6:26
choirs, did well in school. I had a pretty square.
6:30
Upbringing. Did you always think like when
6:34
you were in growing up and getting into middle school, high
6:39
school, did you get into the theater stuff or did that come
6:42
to you later? Like, was that something that
6:45
you were always drawn to? I was always drawn to it.
6:48
My mother still has her season tickets for the Muni, which is a
6:51
big outdoor summer theater in Saint Louis.
6:54
Beautiful place. And I it's a beautiful place.
6:57
I just really got hooked. I got focused, seemed like home
7:01
to me, and I just did as much as I could from then for many
7:05
years, all through college and then when I came to New York.
7:09
So for those out there that want to get into theater, because I
7:13
think what happens is a lot of intrepidation is am I, can I do
7:17
that? You know, will people think that
7:19
I'm good enough to do that? Did you just step into it with
7:25
people that you knew and you felt comfortable and you just
7:28
kind of that you felt like that was your space?
7:31
Or did you ever have the imposter syndrome that I can't
7:34
believe I'm doing all this? Mean when I was a kid, when I
7:37
was young, yeah. No, listen, I the our high
7:40
school had a really great arts program, great theater director,
7:44
great choir director. And there's a lot of talent and
7:48
a lot of enthusiasm and we just were all in and it was our life.
7:53
We spent huge amount of times in the theater, in the shop, all
7:56
that stuff. And it always was what felt like
7:59
home base to me. Yeah, well, it can be.
8:01
It becomes a community, you know, theater and all the people
8:04
around, you know, I just know when I was doing theater in
8:08
college, it's a whole different dynamic.
8:12
It's a whole different world of, you know, it's kind of like you
8:14
got your own little secluded world where it's the theater
8:18
people and you go through the, you know, the whole stages of
8:23
all those classes together. Yeah, and just putting on a
8:26
production, I just loved every minute of it.
8:28
I love the rehearsals, I love the technical, I love with the
8:31
performances. There was nothing about that
8:33
that I didn't enjoy telling those stories, making contact
8:36
with that audience. And I did some performing, but
8:39
really where I settled was in directing, directing, and I just
8:42
had a facility for it. And it's where I felt like I was
8:47
supposed to be, and I did as much of it as I could.
8:50
Well, there's a big difference between acting and directing.
8:52
You know, I, I, when I was doing it, I got B's and acting and A's
8:57
and directing and I, I always have said this, Brad, for those
9:01
out there that are wanting to build a company that are into
9:05
business, I think maybe one of the best required courses would
9:08
be a directing course. Because the whole thing is, is
9:11
you've got to you, what you have to do is make it believable for
9:15
the people that are watching. Your actors have to believe it
9:19
so that, that all these movements and things look
9:22
natural and real. And the motivation has to be
9:26
there so that it all blends together.
9:30
And I think that if you take all that and you know, I was, then I
9:34
was in business and I, I always think of that as like, that's
9:38
what you do in business. You're directing, you're
9:41
motivating, you're encouraging and it and if it's not
9:45
believable to the person across the table, then it's not going
9:47
to work. You're directing in rehearsal.
9:50
You're the you're standing in for the audience six weeks
9:53
before the audience gets there. Yeah.
9:55
And you're their advocate in the rehearsal.
9:57
You're leading A-Team. You're leading people with, you
10:01
know, they're actors and designers and musicians, people
10:03
with big complicated egos and personalities, getting them all
10:07
on the same page, getting them all working together, creating a
10:11
good work environment. But ultimately it's making
10:14
contact with that audience when they roll in there and the
10:17
lights go. Down so they could they come
10:18
away with an experience. Of course, I, I just recently
10:22
saw the movie Sing Sing that. Have you seen that?
10:26
The, the, it, it, it's just an everything that we're talking
10:29
about Brad happened inside the prison and you know, a lot of
10:33
these guys were in there for 20 plus years and they all got
10:38
together and created and had a lot to do with the, the
10:41
director. That was a part of this, this,
10:47
this group of guys. But it was so inspiring to see
10:51
this, this, how this, this story is.
10:53
And then at the end, it shows that a lot of these guys that
10:57
actually were in the movie are at were the actual inmates.
11:00
And I thought, well, I guess that makes sense because they,
11:03
they were in the theater program.
11:05
Of course they could act. But it's, I thought of it in
11:09
that way that you know, it. Those guys were in there in a,
11:13
you know, Sing Sing is not a great place to be, but that was
11:17
their world. They, they, they came together
11:19
as men and created these, these opportunities to entertain and
11:23
then entertain each other or the rest of prisoners.
11:26
And it was, it became a movie, which was really cool.
11:30
I'd like to, I've, I'm hopefully going to be interviewing one of
11:33
the guys that was in that. And you know, the, the
11:37
creativity that those guys had was pretty incredible.
11:39
So when you went to Harvard, that's not absolutely normal to
11:44
go, to go to leave Saint Louis and head to Harvard.
11:47
How did that come about? You know, I just applied and I
11:51
got in. Two other people from my class
11:54
got in. We had, for whatever reason,
11:58
that moment at Parkway N had a incredible group of teachers
12:02
that really motivated us. It really excelled.
12:05
There's a guy two years ahead of me from Parkway N who's now
12:08
running for mayor of New York City.
12:10
Oh wow. There just was this kind of
12:13
special moment there, and I was part of that.
12:16
And thankfully, that energy and the hard work I put into my own
12:20
studies and artistic work, you know, I got through the door at
12:24
Harvard and really had a great experience there.
12:28
So when you you're getting through Harvard, Brad and, and
12:32
you and you did well, you did well you.
12:34
Directed a lot of plays, did a lot of performing and, you know,
12:38
writing, directing, there just was so much like creative energy
12:41
there. And all my friends want to do
12:43
the same thing, and that's just what we did year round.
12:48
So what were you thinking as you got close to your in your senior
12:52
year? Were were you thinking, OK, I'm
12:54
heading to New York. I mean, I wasn't, I didn't
12:58
really have a great, like practical mind for the real
13:01
world, to be honest with you. I basically followed my friends
13:05
to New York City. I hadn't really thought about
13:08
it. I mean, I had taken off a year
13:09
in the middle and lived in London and.
13:12
What was that like? Theater jobs, including
13:15
assisting Anthony Hopkins. Oh, wow, Prince, now King
13:19
Charles shook his hand, worked on a West End musical.
13:23
I ushered at Cats. So I had this year living in
13:26
London doing theatre jobs. It really gave me a sense that
13:30
there was a place for me in that world.
13:34
I loved the work, I love being a part of it, and I wanted to do
13:38
it again when I came to New York.
13:39
And thankfully, off a cold letter, OK, Hal Prince, I met
13:44
with him within about a week of coming to New York and started
13:48
working for him a couple days later and worked for him for 10
13:52
years. Wow, let's talk about I.
13:55
Mean he was. Really.
13:56
I want to talk about that. What?
13:57
How did that? I mean, OK, a cold letter.
13:59
Then what happened? You know, he really for his
14:02
whole life answered every letter that came in, really every
14:06
telegram, every letter, everything.
14:08
Like answering his mail was such a big monumental part of his
14:11
day. And he had very old fashioned
14:14
values about answering his mail, about staying in touch with
14:19
people. Lots of letters went out every
14:21
day, a stack of them, and mine came in at just the right moment
14:24
where he was. Looking for those who don't
14:26
know, can you kind of let everybody know how Prince and
14:30
what, Oh yes, what a role he played in in the theater world?
14:34
You know, he had about 21 Tony Awards.
14:38
He started his career as a producer in 1948, started
14:42
getting Tony's for shows like Damn Yankees, Pyjama Game, went
14:46
on to or he produced Fiddler on the Roof, West Side Story, He
14:50
directed and produced Cabaret Evita, all those famous Stephen
14:54
Sondheim shows, Phantom of the Opera.
14:57
I mean, he had a he had a legendary career making new
15:01
directing and producing new musicals in New York City,
15:04
quintessential Broadway and presario.
15:08
And it was just incredible force of nature and it was amazing.
15:12
It's 10. Years to work for him so Brad I
15:14
can't imagine you got a chance to work for him for 10 years as
15:16
a young kid coming in there off of a cold letter.
15:19
What we what was going through your mind that I'm in front of
15:23
how Princeton here I am in New York and my gosh.
15:26
You know, I just showed up and went to work.
15:27
You know, I got there in time every day I did.
15:30
I did whatever I could do each day to get the job done.
15:33
I was very task oriented. I think that's where my kind of
15:36
Midwestern upbringing kind of kicked in.
15:39
Showed up on time, did the work, did what, you know, I just got
15:42
the job done. I mean, I had a good work ethic.
15:45
My father, who's in his 80s, is still working.
15:48
They're just like, you worked and I just worked.
15:51
And that was Hal's attitude as well.
15:53
Hal, even into last time I saw him was the year he died.
15:57
He was 91. He was still going into the
15:59
office every day. He was in New York still working
16:02
on new musicals. And he had that same, he was
16:06
born in 1928, but he had that same work ethic.
16:10
And, and so he ran it like a professional office.
16:14
And I showed up and we got the job done.
16:17
That's so cool. That's so cool.
16:21
Did you you said you went there with friends as you were going
16:24
through kind of evolving in your own career, Did you did you work
16:30
with friends that you had gone to school with or you were on
16:33
your own path that? Network was sort of part of my
16:35
life. OK.
16:37
But primarily so there, you know, the Harvard group, they
16:41
stayed in New York for a little while, but then they went off to
16:43
Hollywood, OK, and did very well.
16:46
Did you ever think you'd do that?
16:48
You know, I, there was a moment where I sort of had this moment.
16:52
Do I go to Hollywood or do I stay in New York, stay working
16:55
for Hal. And at that time, you know, we
16:58
were working on a new show by Andrew Lloyd Webber.
17:00
We did a new musical by Stephen Sondheim, a play by Carol
17:04
Burnett. And it really felt, now I, on
17:06
reflection, it doesn't seem the same way to me as it did at the
17:09
time, but it really felt like there was no better place for me
17:13
to be than working on all of these projects and really seeing
17:19
how not just how work, but all the other professionals from his
17:22
generation. We did a play with Linda Lavin,
17:25
started in watching her work, watching that generation who
17:30
were real professionals and really knew what the job was and
17:35
showed up and did that work. That was a phenomenal experience
17:39
for me. And you know, I hold on to that.
17:42
I treasure the lessons I learned and the experiences I had with
17:47
that group of people. What do you think was your
17:49
favorite out of the whole things?
17:52
The Hal director that I direct. Well, I mean, that's a good
17:56
question, yeah. Because I mean, between what you
18:02
directed and what, how did you have a?
18:05
Obviously you had a different experience because you were the
18:07
director, but were they bigger experiences or or?
18:12
Well, I mean, when I, when I the projects that I directed were
18:15
the ones, those were the ones I poured my heart into.
18:18
Those are the ones that were the, you know, 24/7 passion
18:21
projects. With those, of course, I loved,
18:24
I mean in some ways the experiences with how that I
18:27
treasure the most were sometimes we just have dinner like during
18:31
tech or we are Wheeler working wherever we are working.
18:35
And he loved to talk, to tell stories.
18:38
He was a phenomenal storyteller. He had the best Broadway stories
18:42
of the world in the world. He knew everybody.
18:44
Packed the incredible mentor. Olden age and just to hear him
18:49
tell those stories was a thrill. And that was probably the most
18:54
fun 'cause he was a phenomenal storyteller.
18:56
He was very funny and and those moments are the ones that really
19:02
still touch my heart. It's incredible that you got,
19:05
you got to get into that world with, with somebody like that to
19:08
be a mentor for you and then you were able to go on and do your
19:10
own things. But also a new Broadway score,
19:14
the first time they play with the orchestra, it's called a
19:16
sits probe. And that first time the
19:19
orchestrations come in after you've heard all this music just
19:21
on a piano, and to hear a Broadway score played on a full
19:25
orchestra for the first time, those are also very magical days
19:29
and really powerful experiences to have.
19:33
So all this is going great, yeah.
19:35
And your life is how, what? And how does it all happen that
19:39
Brad ends up in his own nightmare?
19:43
Well, you know, it really isn't for me a matter of alcoholism
19:49
and addiction, which really didn't really didn't pop up
19:53
until about 2001 and had a little struggle with it.
19:58
And then when the office sort of downsized and how start doing
20:01
less, less and I stopped working there full time.
20:05
Few months later I tried drugs for the first time and was in
20:08
jail about 14 months after that. So it was really the first time
20:14
I'd ever not had a lot of structure because I had this
20:16
full time job, I had college, I had everything I'd ever done.
20:19
And suddenly it was like, well, I might as well try it, which
20:24
was a very bad idea. Anyone listening?
20:26
Don't do it. Right, Right.
20:27
Do it. But you were, were you?
20:31
I'm, I'm curious how, you know, like I obviously things changed.
20:34
Routines changed. Yeah, yeah.
20:36
Did people change? Did were you around different
20:39
people when this happened? Definitely around different
20:41
people. OK, alright.
20:42
And, and, you know, I'd never really like, you know, gone out
20:45
to the bars and the clubs. I there was just an aspect of
20:48
like young man's social life that I that was not a part of
20:51
it. Because you were pretty busy.
20:53
Dove into the deep end of that world, which was a very turned
20:58
out to be very unwise, self-destructive choice.
21:02
And then next thing I know I was like, well, if I'm going to try
21:04
one drug, I might as well try all of them.
21:07
And then a few months later someone said, you know, we could
21:12
get more drugs for less money. I said, well, how is that?
21:16
And he said, well, there's wholesale and you get more drugs
21:19
for less money. And I thought, well, that seems
21:22
like a good. It's a good idea.
21:23
Not a good idea. Anyone listening, don't do it.
21:26
Not a good idea, but sounded like a good idea.
21:30
And listen, I was high. I was drug addicted to that
21:33
point. Everyone I know, I went from
21:35
everyone in my life not doing drugs.
21:37
I actually never knew really a drug user or drug addict.
21:40
Well, how old would you have been Brad at that time when you
21:42
got when you jumped in the deep in with drugs?
21:45
Yeah, yeah. What?
21:46
Where would you have been age wise in your life at that point?
21:50
Like 30? Let's see 30-4 ish.
21:55
OK, so you got through your 20s working all the time, just.
22:00
Very square. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:02
And, and so then you, you jumped in the deep end and when you
22:07
jumped in the deep end, you jumped heavy into the deep end.
22:09
Yeah. And then they tell you, hey,
22:11
host sells the way to go. We can get more drugs for less
22:14
costs. And everybody's like, okay,
22:16
let's do that. Let's do it.
22:17
And then one of those guys wore a wire and next thing I know,
22:21
the feds are through my door right in this apartment, and I'm
22:24
at NBC Brooklyn. And look, I definitely broke the
22:27
law. It was illegal to to talk to
22:32
other people about getting wholesale amounts.
22:35
It was really an insane decision.
22:36
Those laws are there for good reason.
22:39
Getting drugs in quantity is criminal activity, and I was
22:43
part of that. And so I took responsibility.
22:46
I pled guilty and. Did you, did you have any idea
22:51
of I always think it's interesting, Brad, when
22:53
somebody's like wearing a wire and, and, and then there's this,
22:56
this drug raid or, or a break, you know, the, the, the whole
23:00
thing. Did you have any idea that any
23:03
of that was, did you feel like, oh man, I think something's
23:06
getting ready to happen. I feel like this we're living on
23:08
the edge. Or was it just totally boom, big
23:11
surprise busting down the door? Or were you like, oh, I felt
23:16
like something was going to happen?
23:17
I didn't feel like something was going to happen like that, but
23:20
there was a moment in our my conversation with that
23:24
individual because I had known him for a long time.
23:26
It was not a stranger. There was like a moment where I
23:30
caught a vibe, but I didn't. I'd been up for like 3 or 4 days
23:35
at that point, you know, with amphetamines I was on sometimes
23:39
I go just days and at that point I just wasn't sharp.
23:44
And even though I like caught a vibe that there was something
23:47
kind of unusual about his energy, I wasn't able to like
23:51
step on the brakes, extract myself and and I was arrested.
23:57
I think it's interesting because a lot of the guys that I was
24:00
with at Leavenworth were not huge drug kingpins.
24:07
They were guys that had a they were addicted to drugs.
24:12
They had gotten more addicted and and so that it was like they
24:15
were the low hanging fruit that that was easier for them to sell
24:19
drugs and then get drugs. And I saw that at Leavenworth as
24:24
the majority of guys that I was with, that they had addictions
24:29
that drew them into opportunities that they probably
24:32
wouldn't have gotten into if they wouldn't have been
24:34
addicted. I always just think that's
24:36
interesting because the, you know, you think of like people
24:39
that are in prison, like they're, they've got this big,
24:43
huge distribution unit and they've got all these people
24:45
that are working for them. And, and that wasn't my
24:48
experience in prison with people that I knew.
24:50
And I knew, you know, quite a few of them because I went
24:53
through the RDAP program and they were guys mostly.
24:58
And I, you know, for you, you know, it's interesting because
25:02
you were a guy that that wasn't your life, you know, you fell
25:07
into that and it became your life.
25:09
And then all of a sudden you got somebody when they when they
25:14
busted in your place. What time of day was that and
25:17
what in the world happened? 1:15 PM approximately on the May
25:21
29th, 2007, the day after Memorial Day.
25:25
And a bunch of guys came in. One guy sort of isolated me in
25:32
the kitchen, I mean. Did they knock on the door or
25:34
did they come in? They came into one door front.
25:37
Do I have one door? I'm six floors up.
25:39
They actually didn't seem so mad about the drugs.
25:41
They were very mad about the stairs though.
25:43
Oh. Yeah, 6.
25:44
Floors. So there's like, there's about
25:45
10 guys and I'm isolated kind of on the floor in my kitchen.
25:49
And I just see, you know, flashbulbs going off and the guy
25:54
yelling at me and I and look, I actually got to know all two of
25:58
these guys and whatever, I forgive them.
26:00
But he had this thick Russian accent.
26:02
He's like Bradley, Bradley, Bradley, your life is over.
26:06
Oh. Man, it's like.
26:08
He was having the time of his life.
26:11
He loved arresting people, as I found out later, big personality
26:16
and, and they found 61 grams of methamphetamine and, and that
26:25
was all they needed. And that's what I had in the
26:27
apartment. And that was enough to, you
26:31
know, set off a legal process, set off a felony charge, which
26:34
it was. What was done?
26:36
I'm always curious like when that happened that day.
26:39
Yeah, yeah. And the rush of all that this
26:42
Russian guy with the Russian accent.
26:44
Russian guy. Yeah, what is going through your
26:46
mind is like, oh, he says, your life's over, your life's going
26:50
to change or whatever. What actually we?
26:52
Like that? What were you saying?
26:54
Do you want us to tear up the floorboard?
26:56
Yeah. Tell us where it is.
26:57
We'll tear up the floorboard. Sounds like a movie.
27:00
Sounds like a movie. Sounds like a stage.
27:02
The theater production. You just.
27:04
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Did you?
27:06
Think, Oh my God, what's going to happen next?
27:10
Well, I like, were you in a 'cause I didn't have that happen
27:13
to me. My, my whole situation was
27:15
different. I never had the break, you know,
27:18
the, the, the house raid and all that.
27:20
I simply went down and, and, and turned myself in and, and that
27:25
was totally different. And then I voluntarily
27:26
surrendered and stood at the gate.
27:28
So I'm curious, when that happened to you, did you think,
27:32
Oh my gosh, here I go. I probably never come home.
27:36
What am I? What?
27:37
You know, I got to call my parents.
27:39
What? What?
27:40
What? Always going through your mind.
27:41
I mean, you know, like I said before, I've been up for like 3
27:44
or 4 days. That's that's crazy because
27:46
that's when you get delirious that.
27:48
Coming into that headspace, yeah.
27:51
I mean, I was just stunned. You know, it's like I could
27:54
hardly speak. I was very just sort of stunned
27:58
and, you know, but my nature was to like, respect law enforcement
28:02
and comply with their instructions, which I did.
28:05
Yeah, I showed respect. I didn't, you know, I didn't
28:09
react physically. I I just, I did ask them to show
28:13
their ID, which they didn't. I asked for a warrant, which
28:15
they didn't show me. Those are the things I thought I
28:17
was supposed to do. Right now that they're already
28:21
in your apartment. They didn't really react at that
28:23
point and the furniture's going everywhere.
28:27
Things are flying. And I mean, it's pretty fun.
28:30
When I look back on it, I have to laugh because it was a pretty
28:35
extreme. Oh, gosh, yeah, yeah.
28:38
I mean, it's like it's what happened to you is like the
28:40
movies, you know, what happened to you is what people either
28:44
perceive or have seen in movies and it happened to you.
28:48
And did they they immediately arrest you, take you to holding
28:53
facility? Me handcuffed me took me out of
28:56
the apartment, down the stairs. So put into their car.
29:00
Yeah, you know, you put on the shoes.
29:02
They say no shoelaces, of course.
29:03
So no shoelaces. Harm yourself.
29:05
Handcuffed, taken down. Once we were in the car, the
29:10
tone changed. And from that point, I mean, I
29:13
know they're sort of trained to then to be, to try to make a
29:16
connection with you, a social connection.
29:20
And so they turned around and we're in their car and they're
29:23
like, you know, sorry about this.
29:24
We don't want to break up your phone.
29:26
You know, What a strange thing to say.
29:29
That's really weird. It was a very strange, the whole
29:31
thing, now that I look back on it and now that I work with you,
29:34
I've worked with hundreds of other people.
29:36
Oh yeah. System hundreds it all kind of
29:39
makes sense to me now I forgive anybody that may have heard
29:44
across the line and and I now realize that they really had
29:49
saved my life you know we. Said that when we were on the
29:53
phone. I thought that was interesting.
29:54
How? Because like.
29:56
Leading up to the arrest, I had thought like, you know, I need
29:59
to use more drugs. Like I just wanted to fly.
30:02
I. Wasn't stay up longer?
30:04
Maybe I could stay up 10 days and do more drugs.
30:06
Yeah, so. It really was a blessing.
30:11
Saved my life, opened a whole new universe to me.
30:15
Yeah. You know, being going from
30:19
Harvard to, you know, Broadway theater, I mean, that's a
30:24
bubble. Yeah.
30:25
That is a serious intellectual social for sure.
30:29
Yeah. And the experience of going to
30:35
jail, going through the federal system, living at MDC Brooklyn,
30:38
where I. Think, talk about it.
30:39
I wanna talk about that because I've heard a lot of different
30:42
things about that so. But the other thing I wanna know
30:45
too, and maybe I'll take a break here and, and recognize our show
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30:54
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30:58
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31:00
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Prison start over. Start here.
32:31
OK, Brad, so you get drugged through this whole thing and
32:38
your parents are in the education world, you're in this,
32:41
you're in this theater bubble thing.
32:43
And what did now, did your parents have any indication at
32:48
all that you had kind of gone to the wild side for these few
32:52
months or year or whatever that you had?
32:54
Had you got out of touch or were did they, did they know that you
32:57
were up for four days? I think they knew that, like I
33:03
wasn't doing well mentally. OK.
33:07
I don't know. They certainly weren't aware of
33:10
like how far I'd gone into like illegal drug use and that whole
33:14
alternative universe of people that are still out there, you
33:18
know, I really went through the looking glass into that
33:20
alternative universe where suddenly that was my whole
33:23
world. They, they were not aware of
33:25
that. You know, I didn't go home for
33:27
Christmas for a couple years. I mean, they're very square.
33:32
I mean, they're these. Were.
33:34
Like they're like, they're like the nerds of all time.
33:36
My father was a chemistry major, Peg a chemistry PhD.
33:40
Yeah. Education people, Yeah.
33:42
Professors and and administrators, yeah.
33:45
And, and so, and they were like old fashioned.
33:48
They were born in 1943 in Saint Louis.
33:51
They had a very like mid century, you know, wholesome
33:56
life, a lot of healthy structure, Yeah, very serious
34:01
about academics, very serious about just civic duty and church
34:04
and all that kind of wholesome stuff.
34:08
So what I went through in terms of how I got into trouble, but
34:12
also the consequences were very shocking for them.
34:16
So you end up going through the process of these things and I'm
34:22
kind of curious to like how from the time that they raided your
34:25
place to the time you find yourself before the judge with a
34:33
plea agreement and going to the place that everybody talks
34:37
about, How about how long a time was that?
34:41
Well, the arrested 2007 OK and plea hearing was in January 20 O
34:50
8. Oh wow.
34:51
OK. And I actually, I did my year at
34:58
NBC Brooklyn before my sentencing hearing.
35:01
That's interesting. So after I pled, they remanded
35:05
me and then a year later I got out and then I had a few months
35:10
before my sentencing hearing. So.
35:15
Which is a little out of sequence.
35:16
For it is a little bit out of sequence.
35:18
I I didn't realize that that's how that went for you.
35:20
So you were there and they remanded you and you went and so
35:25
you what was that like for you? Well, I mean, the, the remand,
35:36
like, you know, once I cuz when I went in for the remand, I
35:39
didn't know when I was going to get out.
35:40
Yeah. And you know, they said it could
35:41
be six months or it could be six years.
35:44
Yeah. So that was a pretty heavy
35:46
surround. Oh yeah, that's a lot for your
35:48
mind to take on. Really a lot and a lot for my.
35:50
The unknown. They were all in town and just a
35:53
lot, you know, my, this is what put my family, my brothers, my
35:58
parents. There's a lot of emotional pain
36:00
for them, sure. Once I got there, you know, it
36:05
took me a few months because, you know, I'm coming down off a
36:07
meth addiction plus a benzoacid. What was and what was that like?
36:13
And a concussion. So like man was really in
36:16
terrible. My brain, this the function of
36:20
my brain was in horrible shape. So I really was in quite a daze
36:25
for a while. And once I get to my unit, it
36:27
was a single room, a dorm unit, 120 guys in bunks in this what
36:34
single room? So not cells all in bugs.
36:37
One room for toilet for eating, no outside air, no yard in the
36:43
old building in NBC Brooklyn. As I know, as I've heard, they
36:46
don't use it for men anymore, just for females.
36:50
And it's one room. They don't turn off all the
36:52
lights, you know, ever. It's loud.
36:55
People from all over the world, from all over the world have
36:58
with all kinds of charges. And it was a very intense like
37:03
sensory atmosphere. So it took me a long time just
37:06
to kind of feel oriented again, feel like I'm thinking straight
37:10
again. I'm curious, once you got to
37:13
that point where you felt like you were thinking straight, how
37:17
would how did you learn or what did you do to adapt to that?
37:22
Because it's, you know, it's talking about jumping out of a
37:24
bubble. Yeah, yeah.
37:27
What kind, what kind of coping skills do you do in NBC?
37:32
Listen, I got a lot of great help from some of the other
37:34
guys. You know, there's a group of
37:36
guys that went in the corner and sang like Spanish Bible songs
37:40
every night. And I joined them for a while.
37:43
So that gave me some support and I got a great, there was a
37:47
psychiatrist there who did a great job with me in terms of
37:52
getting me on meds, kind of just trying to learn the plane of
37:56
the, you know, terrible state of my mental health, my brain
38:00
health at the time. She did an amazing job.
38:03
Then I just got into a routine. You know, I'd wake up early, I'd
38:07
exercise every day, I'd write every day, I'd read every day.
38:10
I had a little job in the morning to kind of clean off the
38:13
glass surfaces. I did what I could to eat well.
38:17
I eventually was able to order a radio.
38:20
I don't know if you had this where you were, but off the
38:22
commissary you could order a little.
38:23
AMF Big deal, big deal. Big deal.
38:27
That's a big deal. And and slowly but surely I got
38:31
into a routine and then suddenly the, you know, some of the hours
38:36
were long, but the months got very were very quick and.
38:41
At that facility, you're not able to go outside.
38:44
Right. No outside.
38:44
No, no outside. It's pretty tough.
38:47
You know there are times in the winter with no heat, times in
38:50
the summer with no air conditioning.
38:52
Oh, yeah, You know, and that's the crazy thing about like when
38:55
I was at Leavenworth, I always thought that it would be
39:00
horrible not to have air conditioning.
39:03
And we didn't have air conditioning.
39:05
What was really bad that I didn't contemplate was, is they
39:09
didn't turn the heat on until the week before Thanksgiving.
39:15
And it's as you know, Brad, it gets really cold in Missouri and
39:18
Kansas in October and November. And that's what was worse is
39:22
that we would get, you know, we would get all this stuff on and
39:25
our coats and our stocking hats and everything.
39:28
And you just couldn't get warm because you had those cinder
39:31
block walls and stuff. And but the heat part of it, it
39:35
was kind of weird because you would have a few days, it would
39:38
be like 100°. But somehow because your body
39:41
was always in it, it seemed like you, your body just adjusted to
39:45
not having air conditioning. It's a weird phenomenon because
39:48
I would have never thought any of that.
39:50
But it's funny how your body can adapt to all kinds of weird
39:53
stuff. Listen, we adapt.
39:57
We adapt, you know, and it was amazing.
39:59
You know, there were men from all over the world, some who had
40:03
never been in a winter like in New York winter been from
40:06
countries, you know, grew up around the equator and the cold
40:10
just like was very hard. And but we adapt, you know, we
40:16
can adapt to every any circumstance.
40:18
I mean, that really showed me. And I watched the people who
40:22
really had adapted well to this dream situation.
40:25
And when I got there and I saw people who were like laughing or
40:29
singing or dancing or playing cards, I'd be like, why are you
40:32
laughing? But don't you know, you're in
40:34
jail? And I'm like wait a second,
40:37
maybe I'm like have the wrong attitude.
40:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's there's a moment where
40:42
I'm like, OK, like I should be watching the people who seem
40:44
adapted. No, no.
40:45
And I think that's a really good nugget of wisdom that you just
40:49
threw out there, Brad, because when you get into a space that
40:54
you're uncomfortable with or it's an unknown, I think it's so
40:57
smart because I did the same thing.
40:59
Look around, don't say a lot. Just look around and see who's
41:02
adapting the best, who's doing like maybe you would want to do
41:07
and figure out what they're doing.
41:08
Lots of times you just go up and talk to them and say, hey, like
41:11
why? Why are you so happy?
41:13
How did you get that job? Yeah, that's a great job.
41:14
I'd love to have that job. But I think that's a great, I
41:19
think that's great advice for anybody out there.
41:21
When you go to a new job, look around, see who the people are
41:24
that are getting at it right, and then model it, have a
41:28
mentor. You talk to them, figure it out,
41:30
and then you start doing what they're doing.
41:32
And it's kind of like getting the answers to the test before
41:34
the test. But I also think you would have
41:37
been Brad, one of the most unique guys in there because I'm
41:41
sure there was a Broadway play guys that were in your facility
41:46
there were I. Mean, I didn't really talk about
41:48
that stuff, you know, I just laid low and most of the time I
41:55
spoke Spanish. Actually, I'd been a student and
41:57
I had some good Spanish and and, you know, fell in with the
42:02
Spanish speaking guys. Yeah, I didn't really talk much
42:05
about my history and I, you know, or anything.
42:08
Doesn't happen a lot though in prison.
42:10
That's the weird thing. You would think that we all sit
42:14
around and talk about that, but we don't.
42:17
You talk about the present situation and your routines and
42:20
all those different things. But it's funny, unless you've
42:23
got what people call a car, you know, we got 3 or 4 people and,
42:26
and those people kind of share a little bit more than others.
42:29
But mostly people don't talk a lot about their past situation.
42:34
Now some people did find out over time, people that I've
42:38
gotten to know for a while. And there was a day where this
42:43
is back. Patrick Stewart was doing a one
42:46
man version of Macbeth on Broadway.
42:48
OK. On the Scottish play, as we say,
42:51
and these three Nigerian guys, for whatever reason, found a
42:55
copy of the Shakespeare play in what they called the library,
42:59
which is just like a tiny. Little room of writing.
43:01
Books and they, they come over and they throw the script down.
43:05
They're like explain this to us because they wanted if, when
43:09
because they when they got out, wanted to be able to take their
43:12
girlfriends to see sure Macbeth and know what was going on,
43:16
right. And so for a while we would get
43:19
in the corner for a little bit each day and read our way.
43:22
Through you kind of interpreted it for him.
43:24
This is what's happening just. Sort of like something was
43:26
going. On Yeah.
43:27
It was a blast, Yeah. And they were in.
43:30
You really saw how what a great writer Shakespeare is.
43:35
Yeah. And just his ability to
43:37
captivate any somebody's attention, whether or not they,
43:40
you know, could understand everything, all the language or
43:42
not. But the storytelling was so
43:44
strong, was really fun. That's cool.
43:46
Yeah. So you get to the end of this
43:49
thing, getting close, getting close to the door.
43:53
What are you thinking, Brad, about re entering?
43:56
What? What's what's going through your
43:58
mind? Well.
43:59
One I didn't know until like 8 hours before I was getting out.
44:02
That's weird. Because I didn't know.
44:03
Usually people have their like six months or three months.
44:06
Before I didn't know. When I was getting in or out,
44:09
you know, because I said when I went in there like it'd be 6.
44:11
Months or six years? And I didn't know until really
44:14
the night before. And so, I mean, I just wasn't, I
44:19
don't know. It was all such a rush, a
44:21
feeling. I hadn't really thought about
44:25
anything other than getting out and a woman I'd known, a woman
44:30
I'd directed a musical. A Broadway actress picked me up
44:33
from the courthouse. 500 at Pearl Street brought me street
44:38
clothes. My mother had FedEx some street
44:42
clothes for me and my house keys.
44:45
And I remember getting in that cab and and feeling almost, you
44:51
know, carsick because I hadn't seen anything move faster than a
44:54
person walking in a. Year, right?
44:56
They've been inside all year in a.
44:57
Cab in Manhattan and, and it was just, you know, I was in shock.
45:04
I hadn't really thought much past that my sentencing was
45:07
still in front of me because my actual sentencing hearing didn't
45:10
come for another year or so. And, and I just was disoriented.
45:17
I mean, I was disoriented in terms of like what the
45:21
experience was, what it would mean for me going forward.
45:25
And I just was only taking it basically one hour at a time.
45:29
It was just amazing to sort of pick my own food when I got out.
45:32
Sure. And from the intensity of being
45:35
in that room with 120 guys for a year, it took many months for my
45:41
brain to settle on down. Because you're in that.
45:44
Sensory overload. Hyper aware, the hyper
45:47
vigilance, the hyper stress, all that stuff.
45:49
It took me a long time for my brain to just kind of settle.
45:53
I mean, that might have taken another couple of years.
45:56
Frankly, it took several years for me to really feel like
46:00
myself again. I think that's good for people
46:03
to hear that because this goes into 1100 prisons and and I
46:06
think that's one of the things that re entry isn't easy.
46:14
You got to give yourself a break, be patient with yourself
46:17
because you feel like you're jumping in a moving car when you
46:21
get out. You know, it's just like
46:23
everything's somebody on this show explained that it was like
46:26
going from black and white to color.
46:28
You know, it's just like immediately you're and it does
46:31
take a while to feel like yourself, you know, and I think
46:36
the other thing about it too, is Brad is that there's this thing
46:40
that went along in my head that I didn't want people to think
46:43
that I'd changed, Like I I didn't want people to think I'd
46:46
turn into like prison Brent. And so I there was that thing
46:49
too, like, you know, like I want to be, you know, like myself
46:52
again, and I want to do it, but I really was feeling different,
46:55
you know, and I but I also felt like people were staring at me
46:57
like, Oh my God, he's been in prison.
46:59
Like what what is Brit like now? But there's all these weird
47:02
things and then I've got to get a job.
47:04
I got to do this, I got to do that.
47:05
You got all these things. You like hyper paced, but you
47:08
kind of have to slow down and give yourself a break and really
47:11
don't try to compare yourself to a lot of different situations.
47:13
Just try to step forward and steady yourself because there's
47:18
there's a lot of things that come at you in your brain that
47:24
you kind of have to compartmentalize a lot of things
47:26
and try to just step a time, I mean.
47:28
I did not come out with a good frame of mind, like I did not
47:32
pivot quickly enough. And I look back and I think I
47:36
made a lot of mistakes just in terms of my attitude and my
47:39
thinking about what life was going to be like.
47:41
And now that I've worked with hundreds of other people, a lot
47:44
of what I do when I'm working with people going through the
47:47
system now is giving the advice I wish someone had given me.
47:51
Yeah, because now that you've walked through it.
47:54
I made a lot of mistakes just in terms of my own thinking.
47:57
I sat in a lot of resentment because my friends from my past
48:02
professional friends, Harvard friends, most of them, them, I
48:05
was dead to them. Yeah.
48:07
And I thought, and I'd expected or fantasized about being
48:11
welcomed back. Yeah.
48:13
And then, like, what can we do to help reconnect you?
48:16
What can we do to help kind of get you back on track?
48:19
And that did not happen, Right? I no longer had any professional
48:24
juice. So a lot of people in theatre
48:26
world were no. Longer interested.
48:29
Well, you know, that's but I think that's interesting because
48:32
a lot of people assume that that wouldn't be that way in that
48:35
world, You know, that this would be the one place theatre and
48:40
movies and TV that you could just step right back in because,
48:44
well, that's OK. You know, you, you, you had a
48:47
little bit of a drug thing and but you, when you told me that
48:50
on the phone the other day, I thought that was interesting
48:52
that that wasn't just a thing that you could step back into.
48:55
It wasn't. I mean, I was able to.
48:57
I did work again, you know, I did have like a highlight.
49:03
We have a new musical starring Anthony Rath at Billy Porter
49:06
choreographed a musical about Andy Warhol.
49:08
That was a highlight I directed, Believe it or not.
49:13
I remounted. I shouldn't direct it.
49:14
I picked up a production of Flashdance the Musical, Believe
49:18
It or Not. Love Flashdance?
49:20
I did get little gigs, but the people that could have really
49:22
helped really, I mean, when you're directing, you have a
49:28
huge amount of responsibility. And I was no longer seen as
49:31
reliable because of what had happened to me with drugs.
49:35
And, and I understand that if you're putting an investment of
49:40
a whole production on someone's shoulders, you want to be able
49:43
to trust they're not going to fall apart on you.
49:45
Sure. And so I had to accept that in
49:48
time, but it took me too long. And also, although I never went
49:52
back to drugs, I did drink again after I got out.
49:55
And that was a huge mistake. You know, pouring alcohol on
49:59
drama, trauma, anger, resentment was the worst thing I could have
50:03
done. And I probably lost a few years
50:05
to that. You know, now I have long term
50:07
sobriety, you know, now, you know, it's been almost a decade
50:11
since I've had a drink and, and had I come out and gotten right
50:17
back to the gym, got into meetings, really like pivoted
50:21
with a sense of energy renewal and adaptation.
50:25
But I didn't do that. I came out angry.
50:27
I came out resentful. I came out still kind of in
50:33
shock from everything, still recovering from just the ordeal
50:36
of all of it. The trauma of being of the head
50:39
injury of that year at MDCI did not pivot quickly enough.
50:44
And in truth, there's a whole community of people like you,
50:49
like me, people at Prisonist, people, White Collar, Vice.
50:53
There's lots of people out there who've been through the system.
50:56
There's a whole world, and had I connected to that community back
51:01
then, it wasn't quite around back in 2010 when I probably
51:05
could have used it. But there's a huge amount of
51:08
health and support and a huge number of people who pour their
51:11
heart into people that are currently going through the
51:14
system, talking in through it with a positive sense of
51:18
purpose, specific advice, practical thinking in terms of
51:24
how to rebuild. There's so much help now and but
51:29
I didn't tap into it. I didn't find it because mostly
51:31
I just wanted to disappear. I'm curious because I totally
51:35
understand that mindset of just being angry and resentful and
51:40
and and overwhelmed and all the stuff.
51:43
What do you think? What, what turned the switch on
51:45
the other way? What made you change Well.
51:51
Part of it was stopping drinking.
51:53
That was a big part. And what made you decide to do
51:55
that? You know that's a big deal.
51:58
I was just at the end of the. Row.
51:59
There was you, there was you. Got tired of yourself?
52:01
This apartment, I'm not going to ever work again.
52:05
It's really like. You just got tired of yourself
52:07
basically and said I'm done. I.
52:09
Was at the end. I pushed it to the very, very
52:11
end and I got sober. I went on LinkedIn.
52:16
I connect with Michael Santos on LinkedIn.
52:20
White collar advice. White collar advice I've worked
52:22
with, I mean, it's like 350 defendants at this point.
52:25
Well, let's talk about I, I want to talk about that, Brad,
52:28
because I think I, I think that this is such, I love this show
52:32
from the standpoint that everybody likes a comeback
52:36
story. I understand that, but I love
52:39
the the people that I get to interview on this show that they
52:44
survive a horrific event. They have to figure out how to
52:48
adapt, and then somehow they figure out how to reapply what
52:53
makes them them and help other people.
52:56
And that's what I love about what you're doing with White
52:58
Collar Advice, because you are an incredibly creative person
53:03
and you, you, you have an English degree from Harvard, but
53:08
you have taken all of that and you're using it to write
53:11
narratives for people and mentor people who are going through
53:15
what you went through. But you didn't have yourself
53:18
back then as somebody to be a mentor to you.
53:20
And now you can do that for somebody and you can help tell
53:23
their story in a way that it should be told.
53:27
And what does that feel like for you?
53:30
Look, it feels great. I mean, it's not like a creative
53:32
exercise or even a writing exercise.
53:35
It's really about, it's a storytelling exercise.
53:37
It's really trying to convey their story.
53:40
You know, it's eyes when I'm directing, I'm there to as an
53:43
interpretive artist, I'm not there to be creative.
53:45
I'm there to take the, the writer's intention and be the
53:50
kind of lens the story goes through.
53:52
And I use those skills trying to just listen, what's the story?
53:56
What's the audience? And with a narrative, obviously
54:00
part of the biggest audience is the judge.
54:02
It's an audience of one, but it's also the other people in
54:05
the system, and it's also the defendant themselves.
54:08
I mean, the vast majority of people I work with have pled
54:12
guilty, have accepted responsibility. 97% of the
54:16
people do, by the way. So it's like, no, I mean, that's
54:19
the. Large number.
54:20
Yes, if you're indicted you plea and that's 97% and then there's
54:24
a few percentage people in there that go and into trial.
54:27
But helping people sort out the whole experience, see it in the
54:31
context of their whole life story, cuz a sentencing
54:34
narrative, we really try to put the take responsibility for what
54:37
went wrong, right, but also put it in the context of someone's
54:41
whole life. So we start when are you born?
54:44
That's when the interview starts and we listen to everything.
54:47
And that conversation can last over several phone calls over
54:52
weeks or months or even years. That can be 7 or 8 hours on the
54:56
phone to somebody. Yeah.
54:57
But the interesting thing is, is you have to, after you hear all
55:00
that, you have to figure out how to craft that story, the most
55:04
powerful pieces into that so that that person is a real
55:07
person. Because what you're trying to
55:09
present to the judge is that yes, this event happened, but
55:13
look at all of this, this, this person lived a whole life and
55:17
this is how they came here. This is why and how they're in
55:20
front of you. But this is who they are.
55:23
And and so many times that doesn't happen by the way.
55:27
Look, the the and the other key part is looking ahead.
55:30
Yes, it's seeing how it fits in the whole life story.
55:33
The life story doesn't stop at the sentencing hearing.
55:36
You know the life and you so the the long term outcome from
55:40
working on a narrative or working on a release plan or
55:44
anything else you do is like, OK, like this is one strange
55:48
chapter, just one moment in my life story.
55:51
Now looking ahead, what can I learn how can I get better
55:54
'cause we want everybody to come home in the best possible frame
55:58
of mind and that's being ready to work again, reconnect with
56:02
family, community, be productive, be healthy, be
56:05
sober, whatever. So the looking ahead is as
56:09
important as looking. Back I I also think it's
56:12
interesting, Brad, that you went to LinkedIn and found this
56:18
opportunity, which sounds like a very normal thing to do, but
56:21
that that finding this opportunity white collar advice
56:25
and and for those who don't know, white collar advice has
56:28
been covered nationally on so many.
56:31
I mean, you can see Justin, it's on CNN and all kinds of
56:36
different things. He's been on Doctor Fields
56:38
podcast, he's New York Times magazine.
56:41
There's all kinds of things with with what white collar advice
56:45
has been. But it's it's something that,
56:50
like you said, Brad, I didn't know about it.
56:53
You didn't know about it. I didn't know about the white
56:56
collar support group that Jeff does, Jeff Grant, but I think
57:01
it's important for people to look out and around, and you did
57:04
that through LinkedIn and found a community that you could use
57:07
your talents to help people. It was a miracle.
57:10
I mean, it really. I just, you know, a lot of the
57:13
kind of theater jobs I could have gotten would have been in
57:15
colleges and universities. And that was not a possibility
57:19
since I had a felony. And so I started clicking on
57:23
people in the justice field. I said, OK, well, you know,
57:25
maybe there's a place for me in that world.
57:27
Mm Hmm. And I clicked on dozens and
57:30
dozens of people. And Michael Santos clicked back
57:34
and then like a month later, he said, do you want to interview
57:37
on podcasts like this one? And then like four or five
57:40
months later, he calls me and said, do you want to come work
57:42
for us? And it came at just the right
57:45
moment because I just directed a Off Broadway musical, and I had
57:48
no theater work in front of me. I had no gigs, no offers,
57:53
nothing on the calendar. And at that moment, Michael and
57:57
Justin Papurni invited me to help them.
58:00
And from then on, I've been talking to somebody basically
58:04
every day since then. It's seven years ago about.
58:07
Seven years, yeah. And it's been a huge gift.
58:11
It gives me a great sense of positive purpose.
58:14
It's hard work. It's intense work.
58:17
I'm often talking to people on the worst days of their life.
58:20
Yep. It's given me a great deal of
58:22
hope, this job because, you know, you talk to someone in
58:25
that early moment of despair. And then over the weeks and
58:28
months that follow, hearing people come back to life, start
58:32
eating again, leaving the house, going back to church, you know,
58:36
whatever you have to do to start reconnecting to the world.
58:40
Because when your case starts, as you know, it's like an
58:43
earthquake in the middle of your life.
58:45
The kind of pain, a kind of disorientation, that sense of
58:49
shame, that sense of stigma, the whole, the whole world kind of
58:51
collapses in. And a lot of people who we work
58:53
with, their stories make the news.
58:55
It's a major earthquake in life. And to hear people move through
59:00
that one day at a time and start to Orient themselves back
59:05
towards the light of life, family, productivity and health,
59:08
it's a phenomenal, beautiful thing to see over and over and
59:14
over and over. And when I hear somebody, even
59:18
if they want to die, which they ought to do at the beginning,
59:21
come back to life, it just makes me feel like, man, anybody can
59:24
adapt to anything. And I think that's one of the
59:26
biggest things that you learn is, is that you can adapt to
59:29
just about anything. You really can't.
59:32
You can adapt to just about anything.
59:35
I think it's really cool. Best.
59:36
Days of your life come after your lowest moment.
59:39
Yeah, and once you hit rock bottom, there's only one way up.
59:43
I. Feel better, younger, more
59:45
optimistic and more light hearted now than I did even
59:48
working on Broadway when? My well, I could feel it with,
59:51
you know, when we were on the phone.
59:52
I feel like you feel good, Brad, about how you feel about what
59:58
you're doing and how you can give back and the connections
1:00:01
you make. Those are all.
1:00:03
Whenever you can use your experience like that to help
1:00:05
others, that's a that's a you know, you're paying it forward.
1:00:08
I mean you're you're helping people with something that you
1:00:10
could have used yourself and now you're giving it to someone who
1:00:13
needs your help, which is awesome.
1:00:15
I. Meet amazing people.
1:00:16
Yeah, as you know, you know, just because someone has a
1:00:19
felony doesn't mean much. No, they don't take their, they
1:00:22
don't take your brain. I mean, these guys are like,
1:00:25
I've met incredible men and women from all over the world.
1:00:28
The cases are here. We've had huge accomplishments
1:00:30
for one reason or another. The life went off the rails,
1:00:33
sometimes very briefly, sometimes for three months out
1:00:36
of a 70 year life. Yeah.
1:00:38
And they have incredible families, beautiful community
1:00:41
service, accomplishments in life.
1:00:44
Yeah. And I've sometimes I'm just on
1:00:46
the edge of my seat in awe of the incredible lives people have
1:00:50
led. And those lives include contact
1:00:53
with the justice system. Include.
1:00:55
Yeah, exactly. They're.
1:00:56
Kind of uncomfortable times, but that's just one part of an
1:01:00
incredible journey. So it's been an honor to hear
1:01:03
people's stories, hear people's what they've done, how they've
1:01:07
lived. It's really opened my mind to
1:01:09
the world in a way that I couldn't have ever, ever
1:01:13
experienced living in the bubble that I was in in my 20s.
1:01:18
It'll probably be something, Brad, that you'll end up coming
1:01:21
up with some creative work on the stage of all these lives of
1:01:26
people and it becomes some great work.
1:01:28
I, I, we'll see that happen. I can see that happening.
1:01:31
Yeah, listen, it's I hear the best stories.
1:01:34
Yeah, in the world. Like I don't.
1:01:35
There's no Netflix in my life and nothing.
1:01:37
There's nothing beats the stories.
1:01:39
Oh, you're hearing them. That's the way I feel.
1:01:42
I, I was getting ready to interview this lady the other
1:01:45
day and I, I spent an hour and a half and in this world reading
1:01:49
about her thinking, Oh my God, I know, Oh my God.
1:01:54
And she survived and she's doing great things now.
1:01:56
She's very politically connected in, in, in Washington, DC and
1:02:00
helping women who have, it's just, it's incredible.
1:02:04
But that's the thing. You can adapt to anything.
1:02:06
You can survive. You got to be willing to step
1:02:08
forward. But I want to know, Brad, from
1:02:12
all the things that you've gone through and the life that you've
1:02:16
lived, because you've lived a really cool life.
1:02:18
I mean, if you've done some things that you know a lot of
1:02:20
people don't get to do, what do you think's your greatest take
1:02:23
away through all this experience?
1:02:26
Oh gosh, I think I just shared it with you.
1:02:28
I mean, I think that, you know, watching people move through
1:02:32
that terrible time of life and, you know, I had my moment too,
1:02:37
and seeing that the healing process is available to
1:02:41
everybody as long as you head in the right direction.
1:02:44
You know, I mean, I headed into a kind of dark direction after I
1:02:47
got out from MVC. I was in a very dark headspace
1:02:50
and I was making choices that made my situation worse.
1:02:53
But that also helps you share that with those people that
1:02:56
you're trying to help. Sure, you could fall into that.
1:02:58
And here's what I did, yeah. But seeing people heal, and I
1:03:02
see that with the clients I work with, and I also see it with
1:03:08
people in early sobriety, just seeing the ability for people to
1:03:12
kind of really do a course correction at different times of
1:03:15
life. They can be 19 or they can be 75
1:03:18
that no matter what you've been through, you can make a major
1:03:21
course correction and have an incredibly beautiful new season
1:03:27
of life. And to know that and see it, and
1:03:31
it's so obvious to me because I think as a young man I would
1:03:33
have never believed it was possible.
1:03:36
Had you seen me at my lowest moments and anyone see me my
1:03:40
lowest moments, you'd have thought that is hopeless.
1:03:42
That guy is never going to make it.
1:03:44
I was in such terrible shape physically, mentally, my
1:03:48
reputation, my bank account, everything about me.
1:03:51
I was totally destroyed and I could have never imagined that.
1:03:55
My happiest, most joyful, most physically robust,
1:04:00
intellectually robust. That everything, all my best
1:04:03
days were in front of me. I would never have believed it,
1:04:06
but now it's so obvious to me and I feel at the height of my
1:04:10
powers, artistically, intellectually, spiritually,
1:04:13
physically, I've never felt better.
1:04:16
But I could never have gotten here without all the people I've
1:04:21
met along the way and all the the pain I had to suffer in my
1:04:25
lowest moments. Gosh, that's good stuff.
1:04:29
That's good stuff. I think that's where we should
1:04:31
end it. That was good, Brad.
1:04:32
That was right at it. You nailed it.
1:04:36
You nailed it. For those out there, you know,
1:04:42
it's what a great way to end a show of being grateful and and
1:04:49
annoying our experience. I want to give a shout out to
1:04:51
Homestead Financial. It lets me use this podcast room
1:04:54
and all the fancy lights and equipment.
1:04:57
If anybody's got home mortgage needs, go to Greg FDF.
1:05:00
He's your guy. He knows your stuff and he can
1:05:03
help you out at Homestead Financial.
1:05:06
And if you're looking for a book out there, I've got one
1:05:08
Nightmare Success. It's on Barnes and Noble and
1:05:11
Amazon, and like I said, like this, like to show up.
1:05:14
If you want to know anything about me, what I'm doing, go to
1:05:17
brentcassidy.com. I spell it wrong.
1:05:19
I spell it with a Ty, not a DY. What I would have loved to have
1:05:22
been a DY growing up with Sean and David Cassidy.
1:05:25
But Ty, brentcassidy.com, as I used to say to my people when I
1:05:33
was writing my emails back and forth from Leavenworth, stay
1:05:35
strong. I'll do the same.
1:05:37
Brad Rouse, thanks so much. What a great story.
1:05:40
Love what you're doing. Great stuff, man.
1:05:44
I'm your success in and out.