Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 372: How NOT to Lose Money Producing Indie Films with Anne Marie Gillen

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BPS 372: How NOT to Lose Money Producing Indie Films with Anne Marie Gillen · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifagpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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Episode number three seventy two. There's an electrical thing about movies. Oliver
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Stone broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be
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working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the
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craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
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And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of
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the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now,
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today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage
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services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and
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the goals of the project you are. You break it down by three categories,
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micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no
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reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading temp pole movies when
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your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted
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Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you
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need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to
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covermiscreenplay dot Com. Now, Guys, today on the show, we have
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award winning producer and Marine Gillen, who has produced films with Morgan Freeman,
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Gene Hackman, films for Universal Studios, worked with budgets from a million dollars
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to twenty five million dollars, and so much more. She is also the
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author of the best selling book The Producer's Business Handbook, The Roadmap for the
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Balanced Film Producer. Now, Anne and I get into the weeds of what
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it takes to be a producer, what it takes to get an independent film
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off the ground, and how to avoid many of the pitfalls that young and
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inexperienced film producers and filmmakers fall into all the time. So, without any
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further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Anne Marine Gillen. I'd like to
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welcome to the show, Anne Marie Gillan. How are you doing, Henri,
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I'm doing great, Thank you so much, Alex. I just have
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both of my vaccinations and past my two week incubation periods, so I'm almost
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normal almost. I'm my wife and I are just almost there. We're in
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the go f yourself category right now, but we're almost. We're almost to
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the edge. We're like and it's so sad for us because we're just right
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on the border of like, no, not yet, not yet. But
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as of this recording, in about a week or so, we should be
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able to jump on beautiful. So it's been a crazy it's been. It's
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been a crazy year and change. It has affected not only the world,
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but it's just thrown our business upside down and the way we do business as
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the way we consume content, the way we release content. I think the
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ripple effects of what has happened in our industry will be felt for years to
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come, from the theatrical experience to streaming. I love to hear, just
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really quickly what you think of where we are right now and how how you
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think this is all going to kind of shake out, because we're in the
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ripples still, we're not out of the ripples, and we're still in the
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ripples. Yeah, absolutely, but I think more than anything is especially with
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how we consume. I think was because of COVID was just launched very quickly,
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five ten years ahead of the game plan. But it's where we were
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always headed, so that didn't surprise me too much. It certainly affected that
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the optical way more than we would have if we hadn't have had COVID.
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But I do believe that will come back to a certain level, but much.
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Yeah, the theatrical will, I don't think, you know, I
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think when it comes to the indies and documentaries and things like that, I
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think it will be pretty much staying with the streaming. But the big event
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movies and visual effects kind of immersive movies I think will come back very strongly
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when we can all go back to the theater because we all desperately miss it.
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Oh I miss I miss going to the theater. But I don't know
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when I'll feel comfortable in the theater again. It's going to be a really
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that I call it the hangover, the COVID hangover of just like being in
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a room with someone else without a mask on a handshake. You know.
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I was a hugger back in the day I was a hugger, Like you
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know, you're like, hey, you say goodbye, you say hello,
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I'm Latino. So this is the way it is, so you know,
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you know, it's just like ah, you give up a hug and you
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know, and you say goodbye. So so it is a it's gonna be
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interesting. I think we're gonna still be feeling this for the next few years.
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I don't think the movie, I don't think the theatrical experience will ever
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come back to its hype prior. And it's been going down steadily. I
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mean, if it wasn't for if it wasn't for Marvel, take Marvel out
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of the equation for the last decade, take Disney Marvel out. But where
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why the numbers have stayed up is because the cost of the ticket has gone
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up. Right, It's like missions have been slowly, kind of steadily,
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just ever so slightly going down. So it's gonna I don't think you'll ever
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I don't think you'll ever come back up. I think it'll eventually eventually turn
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into a Broadway scenario where it's event films only, like right, like I'm
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not going to I'm not going to the theater to see a comedy right now,
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like it's not really necessary, but I will go see an event movie
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or big action extravaganza or exactly, or something that's cinematic like Joker, even
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though Joker wasn't a like a huge blockbuster like Action Packed. It was essentially
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Taxi Driver, but it was, but it was, but it was cinematic
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and I wanted to go see it there. So right, right, there's
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certain I think you're absolutely right. But I don't think those numbers will go
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back up to where they were, And that's okay. I don't think we
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have to bemoan that so much. You know, there's still you know,
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the good news is there's so many more outlets for us producers to go to
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now that weren't there before, and the competition is fierce and the whole you
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know, I got to have a theatrical release mentality I think has fallen by
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the wayside pretty strongly, very strongly. It's not it's not as sexy as
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I mean, don't get me wrong. Look, it's still of a Filmmakers
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of a certain generation will always have a reverence for the theatrical experience and my
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generation maybe the generation behind us, but like my kids, or the kids,
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or like the generation the teenagers. Right now, it's not as big
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of a deal as it is to my generation, your generation generation behind me.
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It was just like, oh, you're not a real filmmaker unless you're
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up on the screen. And I think film festivals will fill that space even
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more so. The idea that your film is premiered at aval in a theater
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to have that kind of experience will help replace that, and I think film
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festivals will grow even more so because of that. You remember when people filmmakers
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was like, well, you're not a real filmmaker unless you shoot film.
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Yeah, that's gone now, right exactly exactly Now it's like, I need
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to get a theatrical but I premiered on Netflix, and now you know,
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one hundred million people just watched my movie exactly, far more than they ever
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would going to the theater. Oh absolutely. I had a filmmaker on the
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other day who directed the amazing documentary called The Last Blockbuster, and he Taylor,
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he got a Netflix deal, which is ironic and brutal in so many
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ways. That Netflix is premiering and it's a huge hit, and he's like,
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it's out, so many people are going to watch that film that would
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have never seen it. Other we've never seen it before, especially when it
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comes to a documentary or I'm real big into social impact entertainment right now,
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and it's really if you really believe in those things, it's about eyeballs,
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not about opening in the theater or opening streaming or opening film festival or whatever.
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You've got to get the eyeballs in order to change the attitude, to
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get the dialogue going, to get them from apathy to empathy and into action
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about whatever the topic is. So absolutely so we went on a tangent.
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So let's start, actually, how did you get it? How did you
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get in the business. Well, I hail from Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota,
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and I always was a performer. In high school, I did every
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play and I majored. I was an acting major in college and came back
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to the Twin Cities and did the whole theater, seeing the goth three and
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children's theater. I then focused on my dance side of things, and I
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was in a dance company and a choreographer, So that was my whole life.
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And one winner, I just felt like I was hitting the glass ceiling
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here and it was about as good as it was going to get and I
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really wanted the next and the new challenge. And it was the middle middle
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of a very cruel, cold winter, and so it was like, Okay,
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it's either probably in New York or LA. You know, Chicago felt
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more like a lateral move, and I thought, well, it's the middle
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of winter, I know nothing about LA. Let's go check it out.
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So I got my car, five hundred dollars in my pocket, clothes in
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the back seat, and I drove out to LA. I didn't have a
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job, I didn't have a place to live, I didn't know anybody.
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My mom called her cousin. They let me stay there, and that's kind
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of started the whole thing. We'll be right back after a word from our
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sponsor, and now back to the show. And when I first landed in
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LA, I you know, got my agent and tried to do the whole
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acting thing. But I began to realize very early on that being a producer
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was where it's at because then you have more control over your life. Yes,
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you know, at least you can be working on things and making things,
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rather than as an actor, you're always waiting for somebody to hire you.
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Yeah. Yeah, giving permission to do my work, and actors in
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Minneapolis were very still are you know revered? You know you have a craft
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and a talent, and you know in La it's like you say, you're
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an actor, you know, well where do your waitress? Et cetera.
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So it was I just didn't like the feel of it. So I thought,
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okay, I got to teach myself how to be a producer. How
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do I do that? So I started producing a workshop on how to produce
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film and it was a couple hours a week and it ran for ten weeks,
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and I would start with development and then go into financing, and then
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the production side of things, and then the marketing and the distribution. And
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of course I didn't teach it. I just produced the event. And so
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I had to hire or ask guest speakers to come in each work who were
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experts in those areas. So I started combing the trades and find people that
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were that and I would ask them to come and speak. So I built
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up my rolodex. I made a little money because I produced it, and
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I of course took every course, and I did it for like two years.
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Every ten weeks, do it again, and do it again, and
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do it again. So that basically was my BA and filmmaking. And then
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it was time to get into the real world. And I wanted to since
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I was mainly a creative I wanted to work with an assistant to a producer
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or a writer or a director. And I couldn't get hired. And finally
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I was offered a job as the executive assistant to the president of a distribution
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company. And I didn't know anything about it, but he just needed somebody
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very organized and talented like me. So I took the job. He offered
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it to me, and it was with a company that no longer exists,
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but they should have been the next another Mirror, Mirror Max or new line.
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It was called Mdale. I remember him Dale, of course, I
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remember him Dale. In the eighties, late eighties. Oh my god,
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they were they released, They released a bunch of great I worked in a
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video store in the eighties in the nineties, so I remembered the logo very
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much. And you had and you had you didn't have sleeves, you had
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the plastic boxes on the VHS's. I remember, wheah, I remember.
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So the three years that I was there, we won. I don't know
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twelve Academy Awards Platoonador. So there I am, this little pean, you
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know, with my ears glued to the phones and to the meetings, and
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I just sucked it in and just it taught me as a producer that fifty
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percent is making your movie and fifty percent marketing and distribution. And you've got
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to focus on the marketing and distribution and who your audience is when you're in
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development or even before you've been optioned anything, and put your time and money
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into it. And another thing that it really taught me began to teach me
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that it was film financing. They pioneered or one of the pioneers of the
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model where you would put up your own p and A and do a rent
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a system. And back then, like you were just saying you worked in
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the video store, if you could guarantee a certain level theatrical release with the
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p and A commitment, you pretty much got fifty to seventy five percent advance
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for your home video. Because they was desperate for any anything video stores,
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so the majority of their money went into the print and advertising and renting a
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studio system to release their movies. And then if there was a shortfall,
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they would put some money into the production side of things. So when I
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left and started my first company, that was my business plan. I just
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pretty much replicated that business plan. And at the time, the money was
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coming out of Asia, and I found a Japanese investor, very wealthy Japanese
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investor was kind of the Bill Gates of Japan and he bought into this concept,
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which was smart and what was happening then. And you know, he
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was my financial business partner. And that's how I made my first movie,
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executive produce my first movie, which was Fried Green Tomatoes. And it was
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one of those projects that you know, when I read it, you know,
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you laugh, you cry, you wonderful, I remember it. It
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was it was. It was a wonderful ful thing. But you know,
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it was like, well, it's a female driven project. It really doesn't
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have major stars. Oh you've got the race story. It's it's a period
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piece, and yes, it's beautifully written. But no, so they weren't
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able to get it made. So I came on board and I said,
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I'm going to roll my company on this and because we could get and then
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we went to Universal for the theatrical release, doing a rental system with me
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putting up the P and A and eventually when they started seeing the dailies and
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everything, they went back and renegotiated, bought us out of the P and
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A position, and the rest pretty much as movie history from there. Yeah,
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that was and that was released by Universal, if I remember Universal.
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Yeah, so that was a that was a big I remember that was a
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big release. It did very well on our on our video store. It
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did very well at our video store, my mom and pop video store,
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doing very well. It's it's yeah, it's amazing that. Yes, to
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this day, it's still probably getting getting nice residual checks coming in. So
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that's that's remarkable. Now, you also wrote film. Now you also you
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wrote a book called the Producer's Handbook. Right, it's called the Producer's Business
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Handbook, Okay, and I think it's it's fourth, third edition, third
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edition, I forget, but yeah, so it basically through all this there,
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you know, by putting that course together, by being at Hemdale when
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I was, and by having to do this business plan and all this financing.
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I had to learn it all. Nobody taught me that, and it's
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really hard to learn it even in school to this day. The financing side
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of it. So throughout the years, I just had to, you know,
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educate myself to this. And I remember when I was at Hemdale there
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in house, attorney left and so I said, Weston in all the meetings
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and take the note. So in all the legal meetings I was there and
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I would just quietly take notes, and then I'd call my dad, who
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was an attorney, and I go, damn bro Rada Perry, pursue,
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how do I spell it? What's it mean? And you know, just
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began to learn the language of film financing. And so once I became more
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of an expert in this arena, I thought, you know, I don't
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want to It shouldn't be that hard to get this information. So, you
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know, put this book together with John Lee. He had written the first
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edition, and we did the second and third, and it's it's, you
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know, with what's going on in the last three to five years, we
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still need to do another edition. You keep it up today. But a
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lot of the stuff still has stayed the same. You know, there's still
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pre sales and estimates and completion and and you know, so yeah, so
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I get I, yes, there is certain things that have stayed in place.
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But in today's marketplace. You know, from my experience in the business,
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the sales and the distribution side of things, sales have just really dried
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up in a way that when I say dried up I mean it's like like
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in the eighties people were printing money. In the nineties and the early two
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thousands, just like Sniper seven. Yes, just put out Sniper seven.
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It's already pre sold and you've got three million on DVD. Like, those
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days are so gone, and the marketplace is shifting so much now that unless
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you have really bankable, like extremely bankable stars and genres, it's almost impossible
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to really recoup money. So as a producer, from what I've seen in
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the distribution space, there are certain genres, there are certain talent, you
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know, excluding the anomaly, excluding the Sundance whatever or the foom Festival darling.
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That really doesn't even happen as much as it used to back in the
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nineties. So how do you, as a producer in today's world kind of
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guarantee because even pre sales, again without the proper star and genre, because
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you could put Nicholas Cage in a certain kind of genre, doesn't sell nearly
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as much as if you put them in an action or something like that,
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or stallone in a drama doesn't really move the needle as much. So i'd
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just love to hear your take on that. Well, you're right, and
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that's the end of the podcast and scene we're done, and that's the end
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of it all right, But you know, it's always something. I've been
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doing this for twenty five plus years. It's always something. So you just
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got to pivot. You just got to learn the new way and pivot.
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And so right now, I would say, you're absolutely right. You need
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a certain level talent, and that talent has to be right for the genre.
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You gave a perfect example. You have to have the right budget level
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for the reasons you're talking about. You know, are you going to be
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able to get any pre sales in at what budget level is that? You
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know? So all those things come into play. So certainly as somebody that's
19:52
more about quality than like just straight horror or something, we'll be right back
19:59
after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. You
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your quality versus product, uh, And there's a balance between the two.
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Carry the two balance not occur as balanced producer. Okay, so you've got
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it, and it's a three legged stool. You got to give equal to
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the creative and the distribution and the money, and anytime one outweighs the other,
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it's somehow lopsided. So you know, how do you creatively answer those
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problems? So, for as an example, when I go for casting,
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you know, there's there's me and my director's wish list. You know,
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there's the casting people that come up with interesting ideas, and I kind of
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combine the two. And then I go to my international sales agent. I
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go and they give me there and they're totally different. And so you got
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to figure out what's the right balance for that movie and that marketability. And
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then and there's also like a bit of delusion I found because I do a
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lot of consulting and code distribution, and there's filmmakers who come out with they're
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like, look, I've got I want to get in Nick. I'm gonna
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just use Nick as an example. I want to I want to get Nick
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Cage involved. I'm like, okay, And I know producers and directors who
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have have gotten Nick on a five million dollar movie, six million dollar movie,
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and in certain genres kind of like a horrorsh action genre and that works
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at that budget level. But a lot of times they'll like come up with
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an idea and they want Nick involved, and like it's gonna cost you forty
21:29
million, and I'm like, no, that that star at that budget range.
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There has to be more than just Nick attached for that to make sense
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financially. There has to be other casts. The director needs to have some
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sort of presence, you know, like a Joe Carnahan can can't bring out
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a movie at forty million dollars with you know, a Frank Grillo and you
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know, a a Nick Cage like that. That that monitor makes sense because
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of the pre sales that those guys come up together and then Joe and his
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thing. That's the and that package is that that package is sold before they
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ever start shooting, Like yeah, and you saw that with the recent Berlin.
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You know, there are certain announcements that I every territory sold out,
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and you and whether you know what the movie is about or not, you
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just kind of, like you said, you see the package. So when
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somebody says, what is your package, you know that's what they're asking for,
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you know, And it's so important that you understand what the finance plan
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needs to be, what the budget level needs to be, what level cast
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it is, you know, where the genre fits in the marketplace, and
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they all have to meld together in the right, perfect magical combination. And
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you and I've been doing this twenty five I don't even know. I don't
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rely on my opinion, you know, you know, I get a casting
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director's opinion, I get the international sales agent's opinion, I get you know,
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I work with them, and what are the estimates and you know cast
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and how does that? And diversity now is another huge thing, you know,
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which is wonderful. I mean, one of the most recent conversations I
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had was with the sales agent, as we're going to have to replace one
23:11
of our people, and it's all, give me diversity, give me diversity.
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And it doesn't need to be a big name, but it needs to
23:15
be diversity. And you know, it's interesting. So I've got Native Americans,
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I've got you know, Asian, you know, and it's really wonderful
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to be able to give, you know, to really cast that way with
23:30
those opportunities. But I think I think before, like again, in the
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eighties and nineties, you could be a sloppy producer, meaning that you could
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just kind of like, you know, you had such a cushion that money
23:45
was almost guaranteed if you had just this or that, and you didn't really
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need to be that good honestly, because I remember the movies that I saw
23:53
in the video store in the eighties and nineties were garbage, and they were
23:56
and they were making bank. And when DVD showed up, I mean,
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my god, the money was just flying. I mean it was just literally
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like I always use Sniper seven as an example because they made so much money
24:07
with the Sniper, the Sniper franchise, and they were bad movies, but
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you know, they brought they brought Todd out to Tom Tom Berengs are out
24:15
every you know, a few years and they're like, yeah, here's here's
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a mill, let's go do this. And that's one thing and another thing
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is too what makes sense today. So let's say it right now. A
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certain actor is hot, Well, when you started that movie, he might
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have been hot, but something might have happened in the next twelve months.
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And a perfect example is I had I had producers. I won't use the
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actor's name, but a lot of people I've spoken about this actor before.
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Nothing against the actor he's an actor who works a lot, and he's not
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a huge star, but he's a name and a face, and he's bankable
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to a certain budget. But he made that year seventeen movies. So when
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his movie came out in the marketplace, he'd go to distributes like I already
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got three of him. I'm good this year, like I already got it.
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So he's diluted his value, and the producer was they're holding holding the
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bag. So there is that that whole thing because if tomorrow morning Nick comes
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out and makes thirty movies next year, which by the way, Nick Kitch
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could possibly do thirty movies, his value in the marketplace might I'm not saying
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he is. He doesn't do that many. He doesn't happened all the time,
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you know, where people just do too much. But there are still
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sloppy producers. But the producers are not making the money back for the investors,
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and they're just taking you know a lot of innocent investors, you know,
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and taking their money and running and knowing they're not going to be able
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to, you know, get their money back. But you know, it
25:45
just drives me crazy. Is why investors think this is such a high risk
25:49
horrible business to be in because so many slappy producers or not just you know,
25:56
just kind of pie in the sky, just I got to make my
26:00
movie and they're not the balanced producer, and then not understanding what the audience
26:03
is and what the market will allow, and trying to keep it all in
26:07
check. Oh, the delusions that are out there with filmmakers and producers.
26:11
Sometimes it's like, look, if you want to make an art film,
26:12
make an art film, you know, And yeah, you know, I
26:15
made my first film for five grand I sold it to Hulu, and I
26:19
sold it to Hula, licensed to Hulu, sold sold some foreign territories with
26:23
it. It was fantastic. It was an art film. It was an
26:26
experimental film. I didn't really know what it was, like, how is
26:30
it going to turn out? But at that budget level, who cares?
26:33
But if I would have made that for two three hundred thousand, it would
26:37
You can't. It's there's just a balance of again there's that word again,
26:41
balance of what you if you want to make art, understand that there's a
26:45
value attached to that art, right, and there's nothing wrong with that.
26:48
Nothing make lucky and it may go through the roof and that's great, but
26:53
you know you need I mean, another big term for me is risk mitigation.
26:57
Yes, if you want to talk to investors or financiers or funders,
27:02
that's a good term to use. You know, how are you going to
27:06
mitigate my risk? You know, and pre sales tax incentives. There's there's
27:11
a list of things that you can collection accounts. A lot of people don't
27:15
know about collection accounts and it's just like one of the best things that you
27:18
can offer an investor to Can you can you explain a collection checkount for the
27:22
audience real quickly? Sure? It's it's basically a third party esceral account where
27:29
all mainly it's international revenue, but it can be revenue for whatever your project
27:33
is is then assigned to go into this ESCRA account, so it's protected.
27:38
So all the stakeholders, whether they be net profit people, investors, mezzanine
27:45
bank loan funders, whatever, they know that whatever revenue comes, it is
27:51
protected in this third party ESCRA account and everybody signs off on the term it's
27:56
called waterfall. Who gets paid in what order, what percentage and all of
28:02
that. So there are two main companies out there that do that. Vintage
28:07
House I've had them on the show and a Freeway Entertainment, and Freeways probably
28:15
would do more lower budget movies, then Vintage might take on. So if
28:19
you're in a lower budget range, I start with them and they'll take Sometimes
28:25
if it's a really low low budget movie, they might take a fee off.
28:27
You don't pay them up front, but the first revenues that come in
28:30
they might take a fee and then it's one percent ish area or they just
28:36
start at the one percent and they the first thing that they put aside is
28:41
residuals, the potential residuals that are yes for unions. Yeah, so when
28:48
you go to become a signator for saying, if you have a collection account
28:52
set up, that can help you with putting up those very large residual bonds,
28:57
et cetera. Because they know that it will be paid because they're holding
29:02
that money for you. Plus it protects all the stakeholders. So it's just
29:06
a win win all the way around. To have a collection account. It's
29:10
wonderful. Here the word camp collection account manager, you know, et cetera.
29:15
It's one in the same. Yeah, it's well, I have to
29:18
ask you now, like how do you well, I want to ask you
29:21
first, how do you raise development money? Because that's the hardest money to
29:26
because there's no guarantee that there's anything even going to get made, So you're
29:30
just basically rolling the dices an investor going Hey, I like this book that
29:37
you have. We're going to develop it into a screenplay. I'm going to
29:40
help you develop it into a screenplay. I'm going to get a piece of
29:41
the action once this movie gets made. But how do you raise that kind
29:45
of money? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and
29:53
now back to the show. Well, again, it's about being very balanced
30:03
in your approach. You know, you use the very common term it's the
30:07
highest risk of all the money, and I don't know if I would agree
30:10
with you there. It's the lowest amount of money. It is risk.
30:14
Manage it properly. It's not the highest risk. What you just talked about
30:18
is making this movie for you know, twenty million, and that's a lot
30:22
of money, and so I think that might even be a higher risk.
30:26
But to answer your question specifically, producers nowadays are totally expected to come with
30:33
a package, which means you need a powerful screenplay, you need to be
30:37
able to hire legal higher casting director, do budgets and schedules, hire upm
30:44
line producer. If you don't do that yourself. You know all these you
30:47
know, beautiful look books and sometimes is a real or ripplematics and you know
30:52
eteculty, and it all takes money, pay the writer and totally on the
30:57
producers. Now, where before you could go I've got this great ip this
31:00
book, and you know companies would jump not so much anymore. So you've
31:07
got a couple of different options. One is to go to a company that
31:11
already has development money or a first look deal with a network or a streamer
31:18
or whatever. So, for instance, if it's a great book that you're
31:22
going after and a really powerful lead, interesting role for an actress of a
31:27
certain age, I go through a variety insight and find out who's got deals
31:33
at all these different streamers or networks and the actress that would be actors that
31:38
would be right for it. I do my research, make sure that they
31:42
have a real production company. Many just have a name where you want to
31:48
be sure there are people there, that they have a partner, they have
31:51
a creative executive, and you know, then I try to pitch the creative
31:55
of the executive and then they would bring it to their first look. So
31:57
that's one model, and you can do that with directors, writers, showrunners,
32:02
actors, et cetera. Then and the toughest model is you do it
32:07
yourself and strap it. And I'm sure we've all done that on some level.
32:15
And then there's the put the proper business plan together and get a development
32:19
fund together, and you really have to, you know, again, risk
32:23
mitigate the approach. So the way that I and it's really spelled out pretty
32:28
a whole chapter of it is in the book about development financing, and you
32:34
want to do it in steps. Okay, so you put together a finance
32:40
plan or costs of what you think you're gonna need. So there's legal,
32:45
there's the writing of the screenplays, there's casting director, there's a UPM,
32:49
there's visual materials, there's all that line item stuff. I don't like to
32:53
put too often money for myself because that's my skin in the game. And
33:00
so you know, if I wouldn't approach that, oh great, I'll be
33:05
able to live off this money while I now I'm a real producer as I
33:07
developed, that's a little difficult, but you can put something in there for
33:12
that and then you make sure that each step with the way you're test marketing
33:19
is so. The first thing that I do is I run comparables from the
33:24
last five to seven years to see what else out there in this genre,
33:30
in this level budget that I'm thinking of, director that I'm thinking of level,
33:35
the type of casset, what has worked, what hasn't worked? More
33:37
importantly, and why hasn't it worked? And I want to be sure that
33:42
the way I'm planning all of this, you know, is fitting into the
33:47
specificity of what the marketplace might allow for it. Once I've done that,
33:52
I call that green light okay, and I run the numbers, you know,
33:54
for the internal that's the concept of the internal green light, the eternal
33:58
green light. That's right. So I track, you know, what the
34:01
budget level was for that movie? How white at screen it opened on?
34:07
What was the whitest screen it finally opened on, because that tells you the
34:12
spread of the p and A. So did it open on five screens and
34:15
then it went to three hundred. That's a whole different level than if it
34:17
opens on thirty two hundred, and then that's the most it ever opens on
34:21
because you're spending twenty five to thirty five million right out of the gate,
34:23
just to opening weekend. So I track that what the genre is, what
34:29
the level of talent is, director and lead cast, and I got to
34:32
go to the year that it was released, not who they are now.
34:37
So I've got to go back five seven years to contemplate who they are now,
34:40
what the rating was, because you know, if I'm thinking I'm going
34:46
to deliver a PG movie and all the comps I have our R it throws
34:52
everything off. So and I look for the trailers that they use. I
34:57
look for the visuals, the post and all the taglines. So I have
35:02
this massive spreadsheet where I'm tracking like thirty comps with all this information, really
35:07
educating myself to what this material, where this material might fall. And if
35:14
I come up with numbers that look like I think I'm onto something really strong
35:17
here, then I don't just rely on me. I go and vet it
35:21
with a distributor, with an international sales agent, etc. And say,
35:24
this is what I think I'm going to do. This is the global cast,
35:28
and they go, yeah, that I can sell. You know,
35:30
if you can deliver on this that I can sell, then I start spending
35:34
money. But if I get no's in any one of those places. I
35:37
stop and I find a different property that's going to get me. Yes this,
35:42
And can you just tell everybody really quickly with these plans and these packages,
35:45
a lot of times they use comparables to other films. So I've seen
35:51
this way too many times, and please tell people to stop doing this and
35:53
disagree with me if you like, if you're making a horror movie, if
35:58
you're making a horror movie and you are putting together a package, do not
36:00
use Blair Witch Project and paranimal activity, as this is what horror movies do
36:07
to investors. Any smart money will just look at you and go get out
36:12
of my office. Dumb money. Dumb money will take it. Dumb money
36:15
might not, but it just shows me you're a peon. You don't know
36:19
the business. And you know, if I would never use it as a
36:23
comparable in my narrative part of my business plan, I might mention something like
36:29
that if it's perfect, perfect, but I would never never use it in
36:34
my financial comparables because it's just it's wrong, it's right, it's it is.
36:40
It's like winning the lotteries, and the same with movies that win Academy
36:46
Awards. It's like, oh yeah, my movie will win the Best Picture
36:49
Academy Awards, So I'm going to do the same as this movie. Oh
36:52
yeah, like Moonlight, Like my movie was shot in Miami and their movie
36:57
was shot in Miami. So it's Moonlight and they won the Oscar and I
36:59
can win the US first. Well yeah, that or or a Napoleon Dynamite
37:02
Oh my god. Yes, le Cracking Awards and things like that as well,
37:07
And so I try to get it down to the most realistic ten to
37:12
fifteen that really fall there. Yeah, exactly. Now. One of the
37:16
biggest problems producers and filmmakers have is that chicken and egg thing, which is
37:22
attaching name talent to a project, something that's going to make give you the
37:29
money, but then the name talent doesn't want to come on board until you
37:31
have the money. So there's that chicken and egg thing. How do you
37:35
approach how do you attach potential name talent to your project? Well, sometimes
37:42
name talent won't regardless, that's just a fact, you know, or their
37:49
agents won't let them, especially hot up and comers. Sometimes they take a
37:55
little too much advice maybe from or let the handlers handle them a little too
38:00
much so so that that there are there's nothing you can do about that,
38:06
but what you can some of the things you can do. It helps to
38:09
have a casting director, you know. It helps to have a very good
38:15
attorney, recognizable firm, you know, recognizable and recognizable casting director helps too.
38:22
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yes, And and the materials the
38:30
first and foremost. It's about the material. You've got to have a great
38:35
piece of material, great screenplay for a role that they want, not a
38:38
role they've done and over and over and over again. I mean they want
38:42
to real actors want to, you know, express themselves, take on something
38:47
that they haven't done before. So a lot of times, I really if
38:52
I'm gonna have to go out for actors at a very early stage and use
38:58
them, I I want to think outside the box a little bit more so
39:01
if they're known for comedy, but you know they've got the chops, offer
39:06
like Robin Williams, you know, ye, Jim Carrey, you know,
39:10
give them the opportunity in a role that's very dramatic when you know they can
39:15
do it, they just haven't been given that opportunity. So they would come
39:20
on board and for a much lower quote much lower, absolutely, because you
39:23
can't pay them for you know, can't pay Jim twenty You can't pay Jim
39:27
carry twenty million in the height of dumb and dumber to do that. But
39:30
if you want to do Man in the Moon, you could probably get them
39:34
sometimes for scale if they really really want to do it. Yea, it
39:37
happens. And if the actor has a production company, it's a little easier
39:45
because you're not necessarily going through the agent. You're going to the creative executive
39:50
there and you know, and they're going to come on board as a producer
39:53
and they'll have much more creative input and hands on. If I'm going that
39:59
rough, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now
40:07
back to the show. Well, I do this regardless, but you know,
40:12
I really you know, are they on any boards, do they support
40:15
any costs? Are they ambassadors or anything? What NOOT profits? Do they?
40:20
Because again I like to focus on a lot of social impact projects so
40:24
that you can do what's called the double bottom line. Not only is a
40:29
role really great, but it's an issue that's important to them. So those
40:34
are some of the key things that I try to do right and then there's
40:40
also, you know, the harsh realities of like, well, who's the
40:44
director, who's the producer? You know, just because you you might have
40:49
the next pulp fiction, But if you have a producer who's never done a
40:52
thing in their life and a director who's done one short film and won an
40:57
award at the Moustaw Film Festival, which I don't even know if that's a
41:00
real festival or not, but I want to go. I want to go
41:04
to the Moose joh International Film Festival. But then there's that whole uphill battle
41:08
and I've been there as well, and I've seen that as well, where
41:10
you've got good material, but the team there's no confidence that the team ever
41:15
can execute this. So there's that too. Yeah, so you got to
41:20
take you know, I'm working with a couple of first time directors and I
41:29
believe in then two D and fifty and they're great in a room, in
41:34
a pitch, they can speak their passion and vision and you just you're you're
41:39
on board, you know, you really, and and they've spent the time
41:45
to put together the right materials to visually showcase what they can do. So
41:52
if you're going to take on something with the first time director. As a
41:55
producer, you know, they need to be of that caliber because it is
42:00
it's you know, you do have a bit of an uphill battle, and
42:04
you've got to be sure that once they get in the room or the zoom
42:07
or whatever with potential talent, that they're they're able to close them and and
42:12
they're they're going to say, I'm gonna feel confident in your head. You
42:15
know what you're doing, you know, And a lot of times they are
42:17
writer director, so you know the material. They can speak to the material
42:23
better than anybody. And that's also if you can be a writer director.
42:28
That's honestly the only real control you have as a director, especially for your
42:30
first time you know, unless you own the property all out, they can
42:37
they can throw you out under the bus so quickly. And I've seen it
42:40
happen where the writer gets onto a producer and the producer's like, I got
42:44
in the cage. But Nick can't work with with Bob because Bob. Bob's
42:49
never directed anything. But Vick's got a director who he's worked with a bunch
42:52
of times, and he wants to do the project. This is the reality
42:54
of the business. So it's really important that as a producer, you have
43:00
those tough conversations before you technically legally get into business with this writer, director,
43:07
director or writer. It's you know, you've got to understand, I
43:12
mean, where do you stand? Is this your rocky that if you're offered
43:15
a million you're not going to walk away? And I need to know,
43:20
you know, because because I'll want to take that million, yeah? Or
43:25
is this something that if you were bumped to a producer and you've got credit
43:31
and you've got your piece produced but you couldn't direct it, would you accept
43:37
that? And sometimes there yes is and sometimes there's no. And I will
43:40
move in either case, you know, depending on how I feel about that
43:45
situation or that particular person. But you need to know that going in.
43:49
You don't want to be surprised later or get stuck later at the mercy of
43:52
yea unless you make that choice and you knew it going in. And that's
43:57
only something you learn as a producer with time, because when you first starting
44:00
out, you fall into all the tracks just you just laid out right there,
44:05
every little scenario. I've already hit that. Those walls a ton of
44:07
times. I'm sure you hit them when you were starting out and only with
44:10
time do you understand, you know what I really need to have this conversation.
44:13
This is it's to come to cheese, this conversation like it's like,
44:16
look, this is the reality of what is happening. And my whole world
44:21
of indie film whossle, my whole universe, is all about giving you the
44:23
hard facts and truth because I'd rather you hear it from me than when you're
44:30
sitting in a room and someone just pulls the wool right under right from underneath
44:35
your feet, the rug right undneath your feet. Would you say I always
44:37
say this, I'd love to hear if you agree. I believe that My
44:43
philosophy of this business is that every single person, no matter if you're Steven
44:49
Spielberg, Skubrick Hitchcock or the lowest film student, all of us are going
44:53
to get punched in the face, period, And we're gonna get punched in
44:58
the face multiple times in our careers. And they're gonna come fast, they're
45:02
gonna come hard. Sometimes you won't see them coming. And it's only with
45:07
time and hopefully some knowledge that it's not the question if you'll get hit,
45:12
it's a question when you'll get hit and how you'll get hit, and you
45:15
have to start learning how to take the hit, especially early on, and
45:19
keep going forward. And then as you get older, you might get a
45:21
little good wildly and you can start getting it to slip off you. And
45:23
then occasionally you can get them to miss altogether or not even get into that
45:28
conversation as you go down the road. But even pros who've been in this
45:32
twenty thirty years, they still get surprised. And my job and my calling
45:37
is to try to let everybody know you're gonna get punched. Here's how to
45:42
take the punch. Is that fair? Oh? Absolutely? You know everybody
45:46
thinks that. Oh once I get my first movie made, you know,
45:50
it's all involved in from that. I forget the statistic I have in one
45:52
in my notes when I teach my finance class, but I think ninety eight
45:58
percent of first time filmmakers never make a second movie. Oh yeah, oh
46:04
yeah, something something horrific like I was whoa And and for all those reasons
46:08
you just stated, it's just like, you know you're gonna be punched,
46:14
and the question is how quickly can you come back from it? Don't let
46:16
it. It's gonna knock you down and you got to bounce right back up
46:20
and come back at it. And later when you look in your words,
46:23
Okay, what just happened? How can I avoid that next time? Exactly?
46:30
And but but most, but so many filmmakers have these stars in their
46:32
eyes that they just don't even know that the punch is coming. And when
46:35
they get hit, once they're out, they're upholled and they're out of the
46:37
game. I mean, when I was talking to Oliver Stone on the show
46:43
a while ago, I was I wasn't shocked. But he's like, I'm
46:47
still hustling my Momvie. I'm still trying to get my movie bane. I'm
46:51
like, I'm just gonna say that you're Oliver Stone. He's like, yeah,
46:53
I'm Oliver Stone. But I'm still trying. It doesn't matter this movie.
46:58
And it killed you to get it together. You did your seventeenth and
47:00
it killed you. There might be an odd one here and there where it
47:04
just kind of falls in your lap and things happen, and those are golden,
47:07
but it's a constant, constant battle to put it together. And and
47:13
five years from now the whole finance plan is going to be different. And
47:15
five years from there it's gonna change and there's gonna be something else, and
47:19
you've got to constantly pivot and constantly relearn, and you've got I mean I
47:22
remember initially just having to tweak because I was a creative. I didn't I
47:27
didn't go I didn't know economics and legal and all that. But you read
47:30
my book and you think I was, you know, a PhD, a
47:35
PhD of something. I don't know, you know, And I hated it
47:37
when I was in it trying to figure it out and learn, I just
47:40
hated it. And then I just I just kind of went, no,
47:44
it's creative. Putting a finance plan, doing this is creative. And just
47:49
with that little shift and over time it gets big river. So all day,
47:52
every day, I am still being creative because every time I get on
47:57
the phone with somebody, I use my acting. It's like who is that
48:00
person? What is their tone? Like Okay, I gotta match their rhythm
48:04
and it could be okay, what's going on? What do you need?
48:06
And I gotta talk like this, okay, this what or like with Alex
48:09
when we first started, so how you doing and what's going on? And
48:13
you get own or whatever it is and or they throw something at you,
48:17
even though your agenda and your plan and your bullet points are right in front
48:21
of you, and they throw something after you. Gotta okay, improv.
48:24
It's all those years of improv class. You know, you never know what's
48:28
gonna come back. So to me, that's all just wonderfully creative. And
48:31
when you used to go to meetings, it's like, how do I need
48:35
to dress for that meeting. If it's a bank or a financier, I
48:37
gotta look like I don't need the money. If it's a creative, I
48:39
got to wear my creative clothes, you know. And so you can't walk
48:44
in you can't walk into creative with a suit, and you can't walk into
48:49
a bank with your kakis on and flip flass. Right, it's not gonna
48:54
learn. It's not gonna learn now. So you've been in the business for
48:59
many years, I'm assuming that there has never been a negative experience with a
49:05
distributor in your entire career. That everything is when smoothly, all the money
49:08
is coming percent everyone's been completely open with the reporting, and you've never had
49:15
any issues whatsoever. Is this a fair statement or am I completely off base?
49:20
You're completely off I think I knew I would to the point where the
49:25
whole team just finally gave up. It's it's you know, it's Goalie,
49:30
David and glithe Is just like you know, they just throw another legal thing
49:35
at you and you run out of money. Your investors says, enough already,
49:39
I'm not spending any more legal money to try to track this down or
49:43
get this just enough. I gotta ask you. Look, and my audience
49:49
is very well aware of my feelings on distribution and what I've and what I've
49:52
been able to do for them and getting the information out about distribution and predatory
49:57
distributors and things like that. We'll be right back after a word from our
50:01
sponsor, and now back to the show. But I have to ask you,
50:10
like the whole concept of the Hollywood accounting which is where I mean,
50:15
which is basically started in the days of Chaplain. I mean this started early.
50:17
I mean United Artists was created by Pickford, Chaplain and Fairbanks because they
50:22
were getting screwed by the studios. So this whole Hollywood accounting thing and how
50:28
distributors do not not messing all but a lot of distributors, unscrupulous distributors will
50:34
do things in their numbers to make sure that you the producer or you the
50:37
filmmaker never see a dome. How is this a functioning business? Like,
50:44
is it just purely because there's fresh meat that constantly is coming in to replenish
50:47
the old meat that's just exhausted of just getting ripped off or investors? Is
50:52
that how the system works? Because in any other business, you know,
50:55
if you were in the cookie business, and you know, you all of
50:59
a sudden, I sold five thousand cookies and I'm like, sorry, I
51:02
really didn't sell five thousand cookies because the chocolate chips, you know, they
51:07
got more expensive and all these kinds like that doesn't happen in other businesses and
51:10
not I mean, sure that does, but not at that level. So
51:13
Blayton that there's a name for it, and there's and and really quickly,
51:17
you know, the whole thing with the me Too movement, which was basically
51:21
which was you know, the casting couch. It was a punchline, it
51:24
was a joke. It was part of this the fabric of the industry like
51:29
you know, oh, if you want to get you got to go on
51:30
the casting couch. That whole thing was business as usual for way too long.
51:36
I feel that what's going on with distributors is the financial version of that
51:40
kind of abuse, because you're just being abused financially. You just said,
51:46
we just gave up. So I'm sorry through a thousand things at you.
51:50
What do you start to say, I went on a rant. I apologize.
51:54
No, that's fine, that's fine, and it's I mean, that's
51:59
as old as the ills, and you know, there's it. You need
52:04
a really good attorney. Yeah, and the net the profit definitions are the
52:09
net profit definitions of studios distributors sometimes can be thirty pages long. It just
52:15
gets ridiculous, you know, for that reason. So that's where a really
52:21
really smart attorney can at least be helpful. It's why a lot of people
52:25
pay so much money up front, or try to get as much money up
52:29
front as possible, because you'll never get anything else. Why they ask for
52:32
a gross position. It's why they ask for box office bonuses, you know,
52:39
so you know they can see what what you know, which is a
52:43
little difficult now because the theaters are crash and burn. It's why you see
52:47
the streamers paying these big hefty amounts because that's all that ever's going to be
52:52
there. Because there is no other window or back und or whatever. It's
52:58
just the way it's been. But we're due for a change. We're due
53:02
for something. Something has to change. I don't know what that technology will
53:07
be, what that system will be, but something has to come crack.
53:12
The system is already stressed, like the distribution system COVID has put it was
53:16
already. Look when I went to AFM in twenty nineteen, I was like,
53:21
I was walking around. I was like, it's just a bunch of
53:23
dinosaurs, Like I mean, I'm walking over corpses. I mean it was.
53:27
It was really it was really bad. And it's just kept getting going
53:30
down, down down. So nothing against AFM, but just the marketplace has
53:35
changed so much in that space. So I feel like there's so much stress
53:40
on the apparatus of distribution, and now COVID just put it more, it
53:45
will pop. I feel something's gonna come crashing down. I think the next
53:49
economic downturn something. Yeah, but you got to watch the word distribution is
53:52
such a large, all encompassing entity, correct. I think you're more talking
53:58
like theatrical and then it leads into something else, you know, I'm talking
54:00
about I'm talking about the whole like the operatics. But if you go to
54:04
a Netflix, if you get a deal with a Netflix or a Cooler or
54:07
Amazon, not about the front they sold it for whatever you've done in non
54:10
studio, non studio I'm talking about non studio distributors, That's what I'm talking
54:15
about. Yeah, I just want you to be clear because the compasy word.
54:20
And that's another reason that I like having a collection account. And it
54:23
doesn't help so much on the domestic side, but certainly on all the international
54:28
because your sales agent. In your agreement with your sales agent, it says
54:31
that any moneys you know that are collected will not go to them, but
54:37
there'll all the distribution agreements with all the different distributors in France and Germany and
54:43
UK when they do the agreements with them, it says that all moneies do
54:46
minimum guarantees overages will go into this account, so it never goes to the
54:52
sales agent. It goes right there. And we talked that through in the
54:54
waterfall and how it's all protected. So that's another reason that how you can
54:59
risk it to get some of those issues. But then if the distributor in
55:02
Germany doesn't want hey, what are you gonna do You're gonna go super you
55:07
know, Yeah, then that's pretty tough. But again, the collection account
55:12
people, they know all those distributors, you know, they can help track
55:16
that and deal with that for you, et cetera. So it's there's ways
55:22
around it, but it is a very slippery, shark infested situation where you
55:25
really need to understand the navigation of it. I remember I was I was
55:29
talking to a filmmaker AFM that came up to me and they're like, hey,
55:31
I got a deal. I'm like great, Like we just got a
55:34
thirty thousand dollars MG. I'm like, well that's fantastic. What was your
55:37
budget? They're like one hundred and fifty I'm like, okay, what was
55:39
that for? He goes it was all rights for five years. I'm like,
55:44
so you're happy about that? Yeah, we got thirty thousand. I'm
55:47
like, in what business ever you spent one hundred and fifty thousand and you're
55:52
happy happy about thirty Like that's there's something systemically wrong with that. Well right,
56:00
And again, where we started with being that balanced producer. It probably
56:05
was not his money. Probably he got to make the movie he wanted to
56:09
make and it's going out into the world back and then you know, got
56:13
a little bit back and can at least give a check back, you know.
56:15
So I'm happy, you know, but that's not a sustainable business.
56:20
And then it's not a sustainable career. And I honestly it's not a moral
56:23
there's moral issues the well, that's a whole other conversation. No, he
56:29
is, so, what project are you working on now? I'm working on
56:35
a project. And this is the first time feature film director, although he's
56:37
done music videos and shorts and accomplished filmmaker, but not feature filmmaker, right
56:43
exactly. And it's a it's a sci fi trilogy, persephony, and we're
56:54
doing we have an international sales agent. We I have really creative, wonderful
57:01
deals with the visual effects house and the virtual virtuals. I hope you have
57:07
somebody coming on board to talk about virtual and what's going on there. I
57:10
already already I already did, yeah, because that's that's the way to go,
57:15
that's the future filmmaking, and that again, will get those budgets done,
57:20
will keep us safe because we don't have to go to all these locations
57:22
and just a myriad of one I mean, yeah, you just watched the
57:24
Mandalorian and you just go, how yeah, in God's Green Earth? Yeahs
57:30
so fascinating. It's one and it's cheap too, and honestly is not that
57:35
expensive. I mean Mandalorians, it's expensive. But if you if you're doing
57:37
it at a much indier level, you can get the company that I had
57:43
on uh called I think it was Unreal. I think they are. I
57:46
forgot their name, but engine, that's if it was Unreal Engine, but
57:50
it must it was another company that was using that engine. But bottom line
57:53
is that the smaller, the smaller, the smaller version of it for a
57:59
wall, just like a full wall. Yeah, ten ten thousand bucks for
58:02
the actual engine, and then whatever the screen's cost. So under twenty grand
58:08
thirty grand, you've got a whole virtual set that you can use and build
58:13
sets in front of and move and it's it was fascinating. It's fascinating,
58:16
captured all in camera and you can stay on the south stage and oh,
58:21
it's great, it's great. Well, that's sounds exciting. Trilogy is being
58:23
shot that way. That's amazing, that's gonna be that's gonna be a lot
58:28
of very exciting about that. And to use that technology. Now, I'm
58:30
gonna ask you a few questions to ask all my guests. What advice would
58:34
you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today? Material material,
58:43
material, if you spend any of your own money makes well even the most
58:54
important thing is to have a good attorney. Yes, So when you have
58:59
anybody development money, your money, whatever, have a good attorney and make
59:02
sure that whatever agreements you're doing are locked solid, chain of title, option
59:08
agreements, whatever, you know, work for hire wider agreements, you know,
59:13
make sure you have an attorney dealing with that. So many times I
59:15
see people, Oh, they get a template from a friend and they just
59:19
kind of change a few and get in trouble, getting a lot of trouble
59:22
later down the road. And you can't give up. I mean what we
59:27
were talking about, you just it's people just moving and bring partners in to
59:34
like you said, first time producer, I've never done that. We'll find
59:36
a partner who has that believes in the material like you, and that you
59:40
legally moral, compass wiser on the same page and can go down that road
59:45
together. You know, I've done that a lot in my career. Sounds
59:49
good, Yeah, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
59:52
whether in the film business or in life. It's not about me.
59:58
Well that was a quick answer. We'll be right back after a word from
1:00:04
our sponsor, and now back to the show. Hey, get over yourself.
1:00:13
It's not about me. You know what their anger is, whatever their
1:00:16
upset is. If you you're never gonna work, and it's it's it's not
1:00:21
about me. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. You know
1:00:27
what. And have you had that statement says you'll never work in this town
1:00:29
again? Have someone said that to you? You know, I've had that.
1:00:31
I've had that said to me. Like you, when someone says that
1:00:35
to you, they are in a place of such massive ego, and it's
1:00:39
it's so they're so far gone, in so much pain. If if someone
1:00:45
says, and of course the the more infamous, do you know who I
1:00:49
am? If someone ever says do you know who I am? Just walk
1:00:52
away, just walk away. I've had that experience still, like, wow,
1:01:00
Wow, do you know who I am? You'll never work in this
1:01:05
town again. I by the way, anytime I'm on set, I yell
1:01:07
out, you'll never work in this town. Again at least twenty times a
1:01:09
day, and everyone pisses themselves. I do it constantly. Anytime a grip
1:01:15
does something, anytime a grip says something wrong, I'll just walk by.
1:01:17
I'm like, dude, you'll never work in this town again. And then
1:01:20
they just start. So I make it a joke because it's so ridiculous.
1:01:23
And then I think someone called me out once and I did something on set.
1:01:27
They're like, my phone rang, my phone rang on set, my
1:01:31
phone rang. I'm like, whose phone is that? Like, it's your
1:01:34
sir, you'll never work at this time. I am still that when I'm
1:01:39
on set on my next movie. Yes, it's just you'll never work in
1:01:43
this town again. And three of your favorite films of all time. Obviously.
1:01:57
Oh, I'm such a singing in the rain person because I was a
1:02:01
youth directed musicals and you know, and actually that was my first goal coming
1:02:07
out here, was to do musicals, and I haven't done one yet.
1:02:12
Well, the market, the market, it's a little rough of the musicals,
1:02:15
not as much as it used to be in the forties, in the
1:02:16
thirties and forties. Yeah, And you know something I just saw this year
1:02:23
that I watched it like three times, just because I was so enthralled with
1:02:28
it, and it was the Trial of the Chicago Seven, was Aaron Starkin
1:02:32
and the writing and the acting and the history and how it spoke on so
1:02:37
many levels. And it was just able to do something like that and leave
1:02:43
that kind of legacy and help the dialogue in the right now for the whole
1:02:49
United States. I thought was just Timing was brilliant. Timing was And he
1:02:53
said that, he goes, you know, a fot five years ago,
1:02:57
this wouldn't have worked, but you know, and today's today environment, I
1:03:00
got green lit right, yes, right? And where can people and where
1:03:06
can people reach out to you if and find you online? Well, they
1:03:09
can go to my website Gillan Group LLC dot com and there's a form to
1:03:14
fill out. I think it probably even has my email. I'm pretty easy
1:03:19
to find. I'm not hiding anywhere, you know, And I'm really nice
1:03:24
about talking to a lot of people or helping people. Yeah, I really
1:03:30
take that pretty I mean I can't do it all day every day, obviously,
1:03:32
but you know, people that know me know that they can always pick
1:03:37
up the phone and pick my brain and sit in on a call with them.
1:03:40
That is difficult for them and translate it for them later what it meant
1:03:45
and all of that. So I try to because it was such a hard,
1:03:50
hard journey for me, and nobody should have to struggle that hard to
1:03:52
learn it and get it. Amen, sister Amen, Amen, And it
1:03:59
has been a pleasure talking. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
1:04:02
I want to thank Anne Marie for coming on the show and dropping her
1:04:05
knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so much, Anne Marie.
1:04:09
If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
1:04:12
including how to get her book, The Producer's Business Handbook, head over to
1:04:15
the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three seventy two.
1:04:19
Thank you so much for listening, guys, as always, keep on writing
1:04:24
no matter what. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the
1:04:27
Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.