Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KOHBERGER BOMBSHELL: ROOMMATE SEES XANA DEAD ON FLOOR, SPOTS MASKED INTRUDER, MOTIVE REVEALED | The Idaho Murders

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KOHBERGER BOMBSHELL: ROOMMATE SEES XANA DEAD ON FLOOR, SPOTS MASKED INTRUDER, MOTIVE REVEALED | The Idaho Murders · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:06
Speaker 2: A Brian Coberg bombshell. Did a survivor roommate actually see
0:13
Speaker 2: her roommate Xana lying dead on Xana's bedroom floor and
0:20
Speaker 2: spots the masked intruder wearing all black and tonight motive revealed?
0:28
Speaker 2: And Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
0:31
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us.
0:36
Speaker 3: On location of your emergency.
0:44
Speaker 4: Emergency one one.
0:46
Speaker 2: Twos did one of these surviving young women, a young girl,
0:53
Speaker 2: actually see Xanna Kunodle's dead body lying on her bedroom floor,
1:01
Speaker 2: prone mistaking it for alcohol consumption, then spots the masked
1:08
Speaker 2: intruder that the state says was none other than PhD
1:12
Speaker 2: student Brian Cooburger but also tonight, did two of the
1:19
Speaker 2: roommates nearly collide with the killer?
1:23
Speaker 1: Listen?
1:24
Speaker 4: Xana Cernodle and Ethan Chapin heads straight to Zanna's room
1:27
Speaker 4: when they get in from a Sigma Kay party at
1:29
Speaker 4: one forty five, but Kaylee gonzambez In, Madison Mogan chat
1:32
Speaker 4: with Dylan Mortenson and Bethany funking Kaylee's room when they
1:35
Speaker 4: arrive about twenty minutes later. The smell of Kaylee and
1:37
Speaker 4: Madison's grub truck snacks make Bethany and Dylan debate going
1:41
Speaker 4: back out for their own two ten am, Dylan takes
1:44
Speaker 4: a friend to see if they're willing to give them
1:46
Speaker 4: a ride, but getting no reply, the girls decide to
1:48
Speaker 4: head to bed and say the good nights.
1:50
Speaker 2: Straight out to Sidney Sumner, a Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sydney,
1:54
Speaker 2: they really wanted to go back out and get something
1:57
Speaker 2: to eat, finally opting for just let's order.
2:00
Speaker 1: Some door dash. It's like four o'clock in the.
2:03
Speaker 2: Morning, and yet there were still food trucks saying restaurants
2:07
Speaker 2: and bar still open. And at the last minute before
2:10
Speaker 2: they leave, they go, eh, let's just order. If they
2:14
Speaker 2: had gone out as they were planning to do, they
2:17
Speaker 2: would have collided with the killer.
2:19
Speaker 1: Sydney.
2:19
Speaker 5: That's quite possible, Nancy. We believe the killer was in
2:22
Speaker 5: that home four oh seven a m ish. That's that timeline.
2:27
Speaker 5: We know Xanna were still active on her phone on
2:30
Speaker 5: TikTok until four to twelve am, just a few minutes
2:33
Speaker 5: after she received that door dash order. Now it was
2:37
Speaker 5: Bethany and Dylan who were debating going out and getting
2:41
Speaker 5: more food after meeting with their other roommates Kaylee and Madison.
2:46
Speaker 5: So these girls were just minutes away, one decision away
2:51
Speaker 5: from that night turning out possibly much differently than it did.
2:55
Speaker 1: That would have been victims five and six joining me
2:58
Speaker 1: in All Star panel. But I want to go to former.
3:01
Speaker 2: FBI Scott Iiker, and we'll go back to him in
3:05
Speaker 2: a moment regarding the seal datam because he's an expert
3:08
Speaker 2: in that. But Scott, you've seen so many cases with
3:11
Speaker 2: the FBI all across our country, and I've prosecuted, investigated
3:15
Speaker 2: so many cases where just on a whim, like an
3:19
Speaker 2: angel on your shoulder, you make a split decision and
3:24
Speaker 2: you save your life or you lose your life. If
3:28
Speaker 2: they had done that, Scott Iker, they would have collided
3:33
Speaker 2: with Brian Coberger with his k bar knife and his
3:36
Speaker 2: black Ninja suit on, and they would have been victims
3:40
Speaker 2: five and six according to the prosecution.
3:43
Speaker 6: I totally agree in that the fact that it's random,
3:46
Speaker 6: you know, a simple decision can change the lives of people.
3:51
Speaker 6: Did you go this way, did you turn right, did
3:53
Speaker 6: you turn left? Did you make this decision? Did you
3:55
Speaker 6: not make this decision? And thank god there's not five
3:59
Speaker 6: and six victims, But it can be random in the
4:03
Speaker 6: aspect that what happens if they actually walk into the sky,
4:07
Speaker 6: does he turn to walk away and everybody's okay, do
4:12
Speaker 6: do they get murdered themselves too? That's the way it
4:16
Speaker 6: occurs in every case.
4:19
Speaker 2: According to the prosecution, he entered the king Rote address
4:23
Speaker 2: with murder.
4:24
Speaker 1: On his mind, and he had been planning it for at.
4:27
Speaker 2: Least eight months when he ordered the k bar knife
4:31
Speaker 2: from Amazon. That's how far back the murder plot goes.
4:34
Speaker 2: And we're about to get into motive. But at this
4:37
Speaker 2: moment tonight, the timeline is crystallizing, is becoming even more clear.
4:43
Speaker 7: Listen, Kayli and Madison finished their food than lay in
4:46
Speaker 7: bed chatting until they drift off to sleep. Zana places
4:48
Speaker 7: a door dash order that arrives at four am and
4:51
Speaker 7: is active on TikTok until four to twelve am. Around
4:54
Speaker 7: that time, Dylan Mortenson hears strange noises and what sounds
4:57
Speaker 7: like crying upstairs. Piece her head out of the room
5:00
Speaker 7: and comes face to face with a man plaid in
5:03
Speaker 7: all black. The only part of his body that isn't
5:05
Speaker 7: covered his eyes. Now scared, Dylan places calls to her roommates,
5:10
Speaker 7: Bethany is the only one who answers. The girls talk
5:13
Speaker 7: at four nineteen, then again at four twenty before they
5:16
Speaker 7: switch to text scene about the stranger in their home.
5:19
Speaker 1: And we have those texts.
5:21
Speaker 2: We're about to play them for you, but because they're
5:24
Speaker 2: both afraid and two separate bedrooms and one of their
5:26
Speaker 2: cell phones is going dead, it's like out of a
5:28
Speaker 2: horror movie.
5:30
Speaker 1: One convinces the other one to take a.
5:32
Speaker 2: Dash and run to the other bedroom, and it's then
5:38
Speaker 2: that we believe one of the surviving girls spots Xana
5:43
Speaker 2: dead on the floor.
5:46
Speaker 1: Listen.
5:47
Speaker 4: Bethany convinces Dylan to run to a room. In her
5:50
Speaker 4: dash downstairs, Dylan sees Xana on the floor with her
5:53
Speaker 4: feet toward the door, in her head toward the wall
5:55
Speaker 4: in her room. The girls cower in Bethany's room until
5:57
Speaker 4: they fall asleep for just a few restlessness. When they
6:00
Speaker 4: wake up, Bethany and Dylan decide to call friends to
6:03
Speaker 4: check the house at eleven forty nine am.
6:05
Speaker 2: And at that juncture, she was still assuming that Xana
6:10
Speaker 2: was passed out from alcohol consumption. You know, to doctor Bethany,
6:15
Speaker 2: Marshall joining us for now, psycho Alic's joining us out
6:18
Speaker 2: of the La jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. At doctor
6:23
Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall dot com. You can see her on Peacock Now,
6:26
Speaker 2: doctor Bethany, Why is it that our mind goes to
6:30
Speaker 2: the most, let me say, the least threatening scenario. Because
6:36
Speaker 2: when Dylan runs by, she sees Xana prone on the floor,
6:42
Speaker 2: stretched out, but she thinks, oh my, she's passed.
6:46
Speaker 1: Out drunk and keeps running.
6:48
Speaker 2: It never occurs to her she's been stabbed dead and
6:53
Speaker 2: the killer is in the house.
6:54
Speaker 8: You know, Nancy, this is a scene out of a
6:56
Speaker 8: horror movie. I cannot imagine the fear, the panic, even
7:00
Speaker 8: the courage just to leave her room and run to
7:03
Speaker 8: the other girl's room. But when she sees her lying
7:06
Speaker 8: on the floor, of course she's going to think as
7:08
Speaker 8: alcohol because we interpret events out of our own past experience.
7:13
Speaker 8: And if they were kids who liked to party and
7:15
Speaker 8: have fun and enjoyed each other and maybe occasionally imbibed
7:19
Speaker 8: a little too much alcohol, that's the interpretive lens through
7:22
Speaker 8: which she's going to look at that experience, or look
7:25
Speaker 8: at that prome body on the floor. On the other hand,
7:28
Speaker 8: they are in a panic, so they're kind of going
7:31
Speaker 8: back and forth between fear, panic, and oh she just
7:35
Speaker 8: had a little too much to drink. It just it
7:37
Speaker 8: sounds like a chaotic and confusing situation.
7:40
Speaker 1: I don't understand.
7:41
Speaker 2: I'm just a JD, not a shrink like you, But
7:45
Speaker 2: I'm projecting. When my fiance was murdered and I was
7:48
Speaker 2: first told that he was gone, I just assumed he
7:53
Speaker 2: had had a crash, some kind of a car wreck.
7:55
Speaker 2: But my mind never went to the fact that he
7:59
Speaker 2: had been shot five times, and the face and the
8:02
Speaker 2: head and the back. That's just not where your mind goes.
8:05
Speaker 2: So I get it. And these victims have been assailed
8:10
Speaker 2: and attacked.
8:11
Speaker 1: Why did they wait so long to report the attack?
8:15
Speaker 1: What were they doing?
8:16
Speaker 2: Well, now we're learning what happened in those hours. Now
8:21
Speaker 2: listen to this.
8:22
Speaker 3: When Dylan and Bethany emerged from Bethany's room to meet
8:25
Speaker 3: their friends, Dylan sees Zenna in the same position as
8:28
Speaker 3: the night before. Dylan bursts into tears, worried that she
8:31
Speaker 3: may have serious alcohol poisoning. Moments later, one of the
8:35
Speaker 3: men comes outside and instructs the girls to call nine
8:38
Speaker 3: to one one. Now, Bethany connects with a dispatcher at
8:41
Speaker 3: eleven fifty six am.
8:42
Speaker 2: Okay to Sidney Sumner, crime Stori's investigative reporter, explain what
8:48
Speaker 2: we just heard.
8:48
Speaker 5: So we know that Dylan saw Zenna passed out in
8:54
Speaker 5: her room. The next morning, they are too scared to
8:56
Speaker 5: come out of Bethany's room without asking friends to come
9:00
Speaker 5: and check the house. So we're now learning new court documents.
9:04
Speaker 5: Hunter Johnson and a friend come over to the house
9:07
Speaker 5: to check on the girls, make sure nothing is out
9:09
Speaker 5: of place, and when Hunter Johnson gets to the house,
9:12
Speaker 5: he actually grabs a knife out of the kitchen before
9:16
Speaker 5: walking around the rest of the house because these girls
9:18
Speaker 5: are so scared. So that's when they see Vanna again,
9:23
Speaker 5: still pass out. Bethany and Dylan still think that maybe
9:27
Speaker 5: she just drank too much the night before, but it's
9:30
Speaker 5: odd that she isn't awake by now. So at this point,
9:33
Speaker 5: the girls get upset and their friends send them out
9:35
Speaker 5: of the house. Tell them to calm down. We're going
9:38
Speaker 5: to check the rest of this out and we'll come
9:39
Speaker 5: back with you.
9:40
Speaker 2: Mean Hunter the male friend, they call him over because
9:43
Speaker 2: they're cowering in the bedroom.
9:46
Speaker 1: They don't know what's happening.
9:47
Speaker 2: They're thinking, what she passed outun where's everybody else, what's happening?
9:50
Speaker 1: Who is that guy dressed all in black? Who's that?
9:53
Speaker 1: So they call Hunter the friend.
9:55
Speaker 2: He comes over and whatever they say to him, they're
9:58
Speaker 2: so afraid. He arms himself with a knife and says,
10:02
Speaker 2: you two go.
10:02
Speaker 1: Out, I'm gonna go. Look.
10:04
Speaker 2: In the last days, Judge Hippler has made a big ruling.
10:10
Speaker 2: Hippler has ruled the texts sent between Dylan and Bethany,
10:15
Speaker 2: the two that survived that were meant to survive, to
10:19
Speaker 2: tell the tale in court. Those texts are coming into
10:24
Speaker 2: evidence and this is what they reveal.
10:27
Speaker 9: Listen, no one is answering. I'm really confused right now. Yeah, dude,
10:31
Speaker 9: what the Xana was wearing all black? I'm freaking out
10:35
Speaker 9: right now. No, it's like a ski mask almost shut
10:38
Speaker 9: them up. Actually, like he had something over his forehead
10:43
Speaker 9: and mouth. Bethany, I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out,
10:46
Speaker 9: So Amne. My phone is going to die.
10:49
Speaker 1: Come to my room, run down here.
10:51
Speaker 5: I'm screwed though, yeah, I know, but it's better than
10:54
Speaker 5: being alone.
10:54
Speaker 1: Joining me.
10:55
Speaker 2: Veteran trial lawyer Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor,
11:00
Speaker 2: and hosts of Courtroom confidential on YouTube.
11:03
Speaker 1: Joshua, Now I know why the defense.
11:06
Speaker 2: Thought too and Nail to keep out the text messages.
11:11
Speaker 2: They corroborate what we are now learning about the timeline.
11:16
Speaker 10: Yeah, the defense was really aggressive. I'm trying to keep
11:18
Speaker 10: this stuff out for a couple of reasons. Like you said,
11:20
Speaker 10: it corroborates the timeline. But they also know these are
11:24
Speaker 10: the only closest to eyewitnesses in this case, especially the
11:29
Speaker 10: one surviving roommate giving that description. So they need to
11:32
Speaker 10: cut the credibility of these witnesses as much as possible,
11:36
Speaker 10: and they're going to attack one that their level of
11:39
Speaker 10: intoxication at that time too. They're also saying that listen,
11:42
Speaker 10: this is hearsay, and it is hearsay, but it falls
11:45
Speaker 10: under certain exceptions. But they made these arguments to the
11:49
Speaker 10: judge argued them vociferously that these should be cant differently.
11:54
Speaker 1: You're right that they argued hearsay. It did not work.
11:58
Speaker 2: On the text texts are coming in, but portions of
12:02
Speaker 2: the nine one one call are being suppressed. I can't
12:07
Speaker 2: believe that a portion of a nimal one call, which
12:10
Speaker 2: is a contemporaneous communication, And the reason I'm using those
12:13
Speaker 2: words that that's an exception to the hearsay rule if
12:16
Speaker 2: the statements were made contemporaneous to the moment. But I
12:20
Speaker 2: want you to hear the nine one one call and
12:22
Speaker 2: we'll find out why the defense wanted to keep it out.
12:24
Speaker 5: Tell me what's going on one of our one of
12:29
Speaker 5: the roommates has passed out, and she's drunk lass and
12:32
Speaker 5: not leaking up.
12:33
Speaker 6: Okay.
12:34
Speaker 5: Oh and they saw some man in their house. I say, yeah, Hian.
12:40
Speaker 6: Are you in the patient?
12:41
Speaker 1: Okay?
12:41
Speaker 8: I need someone who keeps the phone, stop passing it around.
12:45
Speaker 5: Can I just tell you what happened?
12:46
Speaker 10: Pretty much?
12:47
Speaker 8: What is going on currently as someone passed out right now?
12:52
Speaker 2: I don't really know what pretty much?
12:53
Speaker 5: Aquorim okay, So.
12:55
Speaker 6: I need to know what's going on right now.
12:56
Speaker 8: If someone has passed out, can you find that out?
12:59
Speaker 11: Yeah, I'll come.
13:00
Speaker 5: I'm at.
13:04
Speaker 1: At that point. The girls, Dylan and Bethany are still hoping.
13:08
Speaker 2: I think even though deep inside they knew Xanna wasn't
13:12
Speaker 2: just passed out. She's still lying on the floor where
13:15
Speaker 2: she was hours before.
13:18
Speaker 1: But listen to the rest of the nightm one call.
13:34
Speaker 5: Wrong, She's not waking up.
13:41
Speaker 12: Okay, one moment, I'm gonna help start that way.
13:55
Speaker 2: And then you hear the male friend Hunter yelling at
13:58
Speaker 2: Bethany and Dylan to.
13:59
Speaker 1: Get get out, go outside, get back out.
14:02
Speaker 2: Because he must realize that they have all been stabbed dead.
14:08
Speaker 2: And you can hear her voice in the nimal one
14:11
Speaker 2: call saying that they're not waking up. She's not waking up,
14:15
Speaker 2: and realization is setting in that Xana is dead, lying
14:21
Speaker 2: on the floor. Sidney, I'm perplexed as to why the
14:27
Speaker 2: judge has suppressed even any part of this nimal one call,
14:33
Speaker 2: But I guess Hippler.
14:34
Speaker 1: Threw a bone to the defense. What is the.
14:38
Speaker 2: Judge suppressing out of the nimal one calls, Nancy, it's
14:41
Speaker 2: three statements, and really these are really hearsay.
14:46
Speaker 5: So the first caller that we hear, who is a
14:49
Speaker 5: little bit calmer, not who is crying, labored breathing. Later,
14:53
Speaker 5: that caller is not one of the roommates, that is
14:55
Speaker 5: another friend, and she is relaying information that's been told
14:59
Speaker 5: to her. One of the roommates is passed out and
15:02
Speaker 5: not waking up, So that statement is the first one
15:05
Speaker 5: that's not coming into evidence. And then that caller continues
15:09
Speaker 5: her statement and says, oh and they saw a man
15:12
Speaker 5: in their house last night, So not only is that
15:14
Speaker 5: being relayed to her, but that's not talking about the
15:18
Speaker 5: scene that's going on around her. So those two statements
15:21
Speaker 5: are not coming in. And the third one is when
15:23
Speaker 5: Bethany takes the phone and she's trying to tell the dispatcher,
15:27
Speaker 5: can I just tell you what happened last night last
15:30
Speaker 5: night at four am, and the dispatcher cuts her off.
15:33
Speaker 5: She doesn't get any further than that, but the dispatcher
15:36
Speaker 5: needs to know what's happening now. So those three statements
15:39
Speaker 5: are what is going to be redacted from the nine
15:42
Speaker 5: one one call when the jury hears.
15:43
Speaker 2: It, tell me exactly what's going on.
15:46
Speaker 13: One of the roommates has passed and she was strong class.
15:51
Speaker 5: Oh and they saw some man in their.
15:53
Speaker 2: House of right, Yeah, motive revealed. Why would Brian Coburger,
16:00
Speaker 2: According to the State stalk and murder four innocent people
16:07
Speaker 2: that King wrote address, he had to watch them to
16:10
Speaker 2: see their comings and goings. What could possibly be the motive?
16:16
Speaker 2: He didn't even know them. According to the defense, Joining
16:21
Speaker 2: Me Now expert Howard Bloom, author of When the Night
16:25
Speaker 2: Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student murders Howard motive.
16:30
Speaker 13: The big question in this entire case has always been
16:34
Speaker 13: why why would someone enter the house off campus home
16:40
Speaker 13: of four students and brually murder them in the hours
16:45
Speaker 13: before dawn? And all along everyone has been coming up
16:49
Speaker 13: with hypotheses about what could have happened. Well, now the
16:54
Speaker 13: prosecution thinks they have put the pieces together. They believe
16:59
Speaker 13: that there's a direct link from doctor Catherine Ramslin to
17:03
Speaker 13: Brian Colberger. Doctor Ramslin had been his tutor, his professor
17:08
Speaker 13: at graduate school at Dessalle University. When he went for
17:12
Speaker 13: his masters, he idolized her. She put him on a
17:16
Speaker 13: course of course to become a forensic psychologist.
17:20
Speaker 2: And well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Howard. Okay,
17:24
Speaker 2: so she was his instructor. We know that, we know
17:29
Speaker 2: she's a renowned criminal investigator and professor, but how does
17:35
Speaker 2: that equal motive, Howard.
17:39
Speaker 13: Brian Colberger is someone who becomes obsessed easily. He was
17:46
Speaker 13: a heroin addict and then he kicked it. I believe
17:49
Speaker 13: he was obsessed with one of the victims in the
17:54
Speaker 13: king Roade murder House. And I also believe he was
17:56
Speaker 13: obsessed with Kaffan Ramslin believe he in a way idolized her.
18:04
Speaker 13: He idolized all her accomplishments, and he wanted to make
18:09
Speaker 13: his own life, his own career, mirror her accomplishments. He
18:13
Speaker 13: wanted to become a forensic psychologist. He wanted to have
18:17
Speaker 13: her talent, her ability to look into the dark recesses
18:21
Speaker 13: of the criminal mind, but he even wanted to take
18:23
Speaker 13: its one step father. As his relationship grew, he wanted
18:27
Speaker 13: to prove to her that he could be even better
18:31
Speaker 13: than she was and understanding in the criminal mind, because
18:34
Speaker 13: he could commit the perfect crime. And this perfect crime
18:37
Speaker 13: that he was committing was, in many ways one can speculate,
18:41
Speaker 13: almost a love letter to doctor Catherine Ramslin. He was
18:45
Speaker 13: trying to win her affection and her respect, and his
18:49
Speaker 13: way of doing this, in his bizarre sort of rout
18:52
Speaker 13: of mate mania, was to make this perfect crime as
18:58
Speaker 13: an homage to her.
19:00
Speaker 2: Howard Bloom has written the book That's True When the
19:03
Speaker 2: Night Comes Falling. But I need a shrink again, doctor
19:07
Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall, I'm just a trial lawyer.
19:10
Speaker 1: What is he saying a rodo mania?
19:13
Speaker 8: What Howard Bloom is saying is that Brian Kolberger was
19:18
Speaker 8: in love with his mentor, and because he was studying
19:22
Speaker 8: to become a clinical psychologist, a criminologist, he wanted to
19:27
Speaker 8: commit the perfect crime. Howard Blum calls this a ronalmania.
19:31
Speaker 5: Rono Mania is.
19:32
Speaker 8: When somebody is in a very manic, excited state and
19:36
Speaker 8: they believe that they are at the center of another
19:39
Speaker 8: person's attention. So he believes that doctor Ramsln is in
19:43
Speaker 8: love with him, and he's going to prove that he's
19:46
Speaker 8: worthy of her love. Nancy, This makes no sense. I mean, honestly,
19:50
Speaker 8: she's a criminologist and he's going to commit a crime
19:53
Speaker 8: to impress her. I mean, logic just there's nothing logical
19:58
Speaker 8: about that. I mean, let's say it works. Did he
20:00
Speaker 8: take a trophy to give to her? Did he take
20:04
Speaker 8: pictures to show to her? I mean, it would be
20:07
Speaker 8: more understandable if he caught a killer to impress her,
20:12
Speaker 8: not becoming a killer.
20:13
Speaker 2: We're talking about potential motive. Potential motive in this case.
20:20
Speaker 1: Was he so obsessed with Dr.
20:23
Speaker 2: Ramslin that he had grown to love her in an
20:28
Speaker 2: obsessive way to Chris McDonough joining me, a veteran homicide detective,
20:34
Speaker 2: director Cole Case's Foundation and star of the interview room
20:38
Speaker 2: on YouTube. I've seen murders for a lot less, but
20:42
Speaker 2: obsession definitely.
20:45
Speaker 1: A motive I've seen many many times.
20:47
Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean the defendant and the love object
20:51
Speaker 2: had ever been intimate, had ever even held hands or kissed.
20:55
Speaker 1: It's the obsession with Ramsland.
20:58
Speaker 2: That's what Howard Blue is talking about, whether requited or not.
21:04
Speaker 14: Yeah, the challenge so Nancy with the obsession aspect here
21:11
Speaker 14: with doctor Ramslan is Brian Coberger hates women, Let's just
21:18
Speaker 14: start there. And his obsessive behavior was not around his professor,
21:25
Speaker 14: but rather his study of those who would commit mass murder.
21:30
Speaker 14: And so I think we need to dig a little
21:33
Speaker 14: bit deeper.
21:33
Speaker 15: Here, and again I believe that at some point it
21:39
Speaker 15: will be shown that he was obsessed with serial killers
21:43
Speaker 15: Ted Bundy, specifically.
21:51
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Gray.
21:57
Speaker 2: Was Brian Hoberger at obsessed with doctor Ramsen, one of
22:03
Speaker 2: his female instructors, known as the consummate expert.
22:08
Speaker 1: In the field. We know that.
22:11
Speaker 2: Also the defense fought again tooth and nail to keep
22:15
Speaker 2: out his thesis, the thesis regarding criminal behavior that he wrote,
22:22
Speaker 2: which delves into the criminal psyche.
22:25
Speaker 12: Listen in arguments against its inclusion, The defense reveals that
22:28
Speaker 12: prosecutors plan to enter into evidence records from Colberger's graduate
22:33
Speaker 12: studies in psychology at the Sales University. The filing says
22:37
Speaker 12: they have received discovery including Coberger's school calendar, written coursework, testing, emails,
22:44
Speaker 12: and syllabi from his time as a master's student, and
22:47
Speaker 12: the attorneys failed to see its relevance. As part of
22:51
Speaker 12: his thesis, Colberger worked with professors to develop a survey
22:55
Speaker 12: exploring how emotions influence a criminal's decision making during the
23:00
Speaker 12: commission of a violent crime.
23:02
Speaker 1: Wow, is that.
23:03
Speaker 2: Airbrust or what Sidney Summer joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter.
23:08
Speaker 2: It wasn't just a survey, It wasn't just a black
23:11
Speaker 2: and white on a page report.
23:14
Speaker 1: He would ask these violent felons, how did you pick
23:18
Speaker 1: your victim? What did it feel like when you enacted
23:22
Speaker 1: the crime?
23:23
Speaker 2: In other words, when you stabbed someone, or raped someone,
23:26
Speaker 2: or kill someone, felt the life.
23:29
Speaker 1: Ebbing out of their body? What did that feel like?
23:32
Speaker 1: How did you get away? What was your exit strategy?
23:37
Speaker 2: He wanted the gruesome details, the emotions these violent felons
23:44
Speaker 2: experienced in the throes of the murder.
23:49
Speaker 5: That's absolutely correct. This was not just a pick one
23:53
Speaker 5: of the below survey. It was extremely in depth. He
23:57
Speaker 5: wanted to know exactly how that criminal felt as they
24:01
Speaker 5: committed their crime, their violent crime. In addition to that survey,
24:06
Speaker 5: prosecutors also wanted to introduce a report that he gave,
24:11
Speaker 5: and it was basically how he would go in and
24:15
Speaker 5: assess a crime scene if he was the lead investigator
24:18
Speaker 5: in a case. First to the crime scene. And that
24:21
Speaker 5: case study was a stabbing of a woman more middle
24:25
Speaker 5: aged than the victims in his actual criminal case. But
24:29
Speaker 5: I think prosecutors planned to use that just to demonstrate
24:32
Speaker 5: how much knowledging crime scene.
24:34
Speaker 1: Clo over verifies something that you just said.
24:37
Speaker 2: In his study, his hypothetical victim was a white female
24:44
Speaker 2: alone that he stabbed with a knife inside a structure.
24:49
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
24:50
Speaker 5: Yes? That is correct.
24:52
Speaker 1: Guys, do you not see.
24:55
Speaker 2: The importance of the judges ruling allowing that study, that
25:01
Speaker 2: doctoral thesis that Coburger wrote, allowing that in now the
25:06
Speaker 2: state is never required to show motive.
25:10
Speaker 1: But here you've.
25:11
Speaker 2: Got, according to Bloom, Coburger's obsession erotomania that doctor Bethany
25:18
Speaker 2: explained to us with Ramsland hand in hand corroborated by
25:25
Speaker 2: this thesis. He's trying so hard to not only oppress her,
25:30
Speaker 2: but to best her in his knowledge.
25:34
Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Bethany, Well.
25:36
Speaker 8: I think one of the things he's doing. If we
25:38
Speaker 8: think of this crime as sexually motivated, then interviewing other
25:43
Speaker 8: criminals is almost like his pornography. It's one of the
25:46
Speaker 8: things he wants to read and reread.
25:48
Speaker 5: He's obsessed with it.
25:49
Speaker 8: But I would say that that motivation also applies to
25:54
Speaker 8: doctor Ramslom that if there were a lot of media
25:57
Speaker 8: that the excitement, the sexual excitement, the emotional excitement and
26:02
Speaker 8: being around her is that she's talking about crime. This
26:05
Speaker 8: is his crack nancy. This is the thing that he
26:09
Speaker 8: is most obsessed about. So if he were to be
26:12
Speaker 8: in love with somebody, and if he were to believe
26:15
Speaker 8: that that love object reciprocates his affection, it would be
26:19
Speaker 8: something like doctor Ramsland, because they have this common interest
26:23
Speaker 8: in crime.
26:23
Speaker 2: Can I ask you something, doctor Bethany, How does stabbing
26:27
Speaker 2: a young co ed over and overslicing her up, butchering her,
26:32
Speaker 2: how is that sexually.
26:36
Speaker 1: Pleasing?
26:36
Speaker 8: In the DSM, we see that sexual sadism is one
26:40
Speaker 8: of the five perversions exhibitionism, proderism, voyeurism, pedophilia. And the
26:46
Speaker 8: reason for that, Nancy, is that sociopaths have under arousal
26:51
Speaker 8: in her emptiness. They can't get excited by normal events
26:55
Speaker 8: in life like you and I do. So Committing cruelty,
26:58
Speaker 8: seeing the fear in a woman's eyes, feeling the knight
27:02
Speaker 8: slash through their body, all of these things are very
27:06
Speaker 8: sexually satisfying because they pair sadism and being hurtful with
27:12
Speaker 8: sexual excitement. In other words, it stimulates them out of
27:15
Speaker 8: that dead state. You know how we say with killers
27:18
Speaker 8: they have dead eyes. They do have dead eyes because
27:22
Speaker 8: internally they are dead, but when they commit acts of cruelty,
27:27
Speaker 8: it brings them alive, and they pair that with sexual excitement,
27:32
Speaker 8: and that's what drives the crime, and.
27:34
Speaker 2: Then they relive it over and over and over for
27:38
Speaker 2: sexual excitement. Speaking of I'm sure Ramsm is not happy
27:44
Speaker 2: about this theory of motive that is now emerging according
27:48
Speaker 2: to Howard Bloom, but corroborating her relationship with him and
27:55
Speaker 2: his family. Let's go to Howard Bloom tell me about
28:00
Speaker 2: the connection between Ramslin and Coyberger's family.
28:04
Speaker 13: The relationship betwetween doctor Ramslin and the family began way
28:10
Speaker 13: before the trial. Just days after Brian Coburger's arrest, his
28:17
Speaker 13: family gets a call from doctor Ramslin asking if she
28:21
Speaker 13: can help, if she can help them in any way.
28:23
Speaker 13: She's not talking about his innocence or guilt. She's just
28:27
Speaker 13: concerned about a student and she wants to guide the
28:30
Speaker 13: family through this complicated process. The family told the lawyers involved, wait,
28:37
Speaker 13: we can't do anything until doctor Ramslin gives us approvals
28:40
Speaker 13: to meet with you.
28:41
Speaker 7: Thank Vehicle one is first recorded Ian Pullman at two
28:44
Speaker 7: forty four am as it heads east on State Route
28:47
Speaker 7: two seventy the direction of Moscow. At three h two am,
28:50
Speaker 7: it's captured passing Floyd's Cannabis company, located just off State
28:54
Speaker 7: Route two seventy. At three twenty six am, cameras at
28:58
Speaker 7: three different residences in the seven hund block of Indian
29:01
Speaker 7: Hills Drive in Moscow pick up the.
29:03
Speaker 1: Same white sedan.
29:04
Speaker 7: Two minutes later, at three twenty eight am, a camera
29:07
Speaker 7: at Sunset Mart in Moscow recorded the car turn west
29:12
Speaker 7: about half a mile away and head in the direction
29:15
Speaker 7: of the King Roadhouse.
29:17
Speaker 2: It sounds to me Scott Iiker joining me, founding member
29:20
Speaker 2: FBI's cast Historical Cellular Analysis expert cast Team Scott. It
29:26
Speaker 2: sounds like they have got him in his vehicle starting
29:31
Speaker 2: at two forty four a m. And I'm going to
29:35
Speaker 2: explain how the vehicle is trapped all the way back
29:40
Speaker 2: to within one mile that night at five point twenty
29:44
Speaker 2: six am, back to his apartment, Scott Iiker.
29:49
Speaker 1: How did they do it?
29:50
Speaker 6: That's one of the things that we teach in our
29:51
Speaker 6: classes is not only are you looking at the cell
29:54
Speaker 6: phone stuff, but the cell phone stuff can lead you
29:57
Speaker 6: to the paths that the vehicle or person took, so
30:01
Speaker 6: you can go look for cameras in that area. It's
30:05
Speaker 6: very helpful and validates the cellular stuff. And the cameras
30:09
Speaker 6: themselves are very helpful, and nowadays there's numerous cameras everywhere houses,
30:14
Speaker 6: ring doors, businesses. It's very helpful. And if you can
30:19
Speaker 6: piece it together correctly and make a timeline, you can
30:24
Speaker 6: see that car in this case, the white cident traveling
30:28
Speaker 6: towards the crime scene. That's fantastic evidence.
30:37
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Scott Iiker with us.
30:45
Speaker 2: As we just reported, he the vehicle, the white Alantra
30:49
Speaker 2: matching the description of his car, pulls out at Pullman
30:53
Speaker 2: where he lives.
30:54
Speaker 1: It's about ten minutes.
30:56
Speaker 2: Away from King Road where the four students were murdered
31:00
Speaker 2: at Pullman two forty four, heading east State wrote to
31:04
Speaker 2: seventy toward Moscow three two a m. About twenty minutes later,
31:11
Speaker 2: it passes Floyd's Cannabis. That's just off two seventy three.
31:17
Speaker 2: Twenty six cameras at three residences spot the Elantra at
31:23
Speaker 2: Indian Hills Drive. Okay, that's in Moscow. He's in Moscow
31:28
Speaker 2: picking up the same white Alantra. Two minutes later three
31:30
Speaker 2: twenty eight Sunset Mart Moscow records the car turn and
31:36
Speaker 2: head toward the King Road house.
31:39
Speaker 1: Chris mcdona. You and I intimately familiar with that.
31:42
Speaker 2: Sunset Mart is at that the place, Chris mcdona, where
31:46
Speaker 2: a clerk took it upon herself to come through literally
31:51
Speaker 2: hours of surveillance video and she spots a white Elantra
31:56
Speaker 2: speeding by and she calls police.
31:59
Speaker 14: Yeah, Nancy, and you've been there, You've seen that intersection.
32:04
Speaker 14: And what's really interesting here is this is the night
32:08
Speaker 14: of the homicide. I'm going to be really curious to
32:11
Speaker 14: find out what the cast team discovered not the night
32:14
Speaker 14: of the homicide, but leading up to it, that's going
32:17
Speaker 14: to be fascinating information as well.
32:19
Speaker 2: At that corner where the Sunset mart is, it's just
32:24
Speaker 2: a hop, skip and a jump from there to the
32:26
Speaker 2: King Road address, and there you've got a white a
32:29
Speaker 2: launch returning heading toward the murder scene.
32:33
Speaker 1: Okay, let's pick it up right there. Listen.
32:35
Speaker 4: A security camera on the apartment building neighboring eleven twenty
32:38
Speaker 4: two King Road first records a white sedan at three
32:41
Speaker 4: thirty am. Over the next thirty four minutes, it circles
32:44
Speaker 4: the neighborhood at least five times, then parks. At four
32:47
Speaker 4: oh seven am, prosecutor's right vehicle one exits the frame,
32:52
Speaker 4: traveling in the direction of the victim's residence. There is
32:55
Speaker 4: no subsequent activity captured for approximately thirteen minutes. At four
32:59
Speaker 4: to twenty am, the white Sitan leaves King Wrote at
33:02
Speaker 4: a high rate of speed and turns west onto Taylor
33:04
Speaker 4: Avenue to exit the area on the road behind the neighborhood.
33:07
Speaker 1: We've seen this before.
33:09
Speaker 2: Can't you just imagine this was going to happen, Joshua Ritter.
33:13
Speaker 2: The jury is going to be sitting there and they're
33:16
Speaker 2: going to be watching this video, and we saw it
33:19
Speaker 2: recently in another case we investigated and covered. It's the
33:22
Speaker 2: case of the so called glam yoga instructor. She wasn't
33:26
Speaker 2: glamed to me, Kaylin Armstrong, angry about a love rival,
33:31
Speaker 2: made up a whole love triangle in her head. Then
33:36
Speaker 2: followed the victim, a young dirt bike racer. Marine followed her,
33:42
Speaker 2: and you see surveillance of her like a vulture, circling
33:46
Speaker 2: round and round and round in her black suv. Same
33:51
Speaker 2: thing here here we are three thirty am. Okay, just
33:56
Speaker 2: after the white Elantra passes the sunset, mart would say,
34:00
Speaker 2: is the crow flies that's a mile or so away
34:02
Speaker 2: from the King Road address. For thirty four minutes it
34:06
Speaker 2: circles one, two, three, four five. At four seven am,
34:15
Speaker 2: parks Vehicle one exits the frame, traveling in the direction
34:21
Speaker 2: of the victim's residence. No activity after that for thirteen minutes.
34:28
Speaker 2: For twenty am, that white Elantra leaves at a high
34:34
Speaker 2: rate of speed. Now overlay that Joshua with what Dylan
34:39
Speaker 2: and Bethany say right based on their timeline, that's exactly
34:47
Speaker 2: when they spot the intruder in the home just before
34:54
Speaker 2: four twenty a m. Just as they were about to
34:58
Speaker 2: head out to get food, and they go, ah, let's
35:01
Speaker 2: do door dash right there, it all fits together.
35:04
Speaker 1: Ritter, Yeah, it's powerful stuff.
35:06
Speaker 10: I mean, listen, this is this is going to be
35:08
Speaker 10: one of the things that the defense is going to
35:10
Speaker 10: have to deal with most seriously. Because you're right, you
35:13
Speaker 10: start to line it up the way you did, it
35:15
Speaker 10: starts to pain a pretty vivid picture for the jury.
35:18
Speaker 10: What is the defense going to argue? I think they're
35:20
Speaker 10: going to argue. Listen, this is not horseshoes close. It
35:23
Speaker 10: doesn't count here. You if you're not able to place
35:26
Speaker 10: our client, the defendant, at the location, and the closest
35:30
Speaker 10: you can do is a mile away, well then what
35:33
Speaker 10: are we dealing with here. We're dealing with a person
35:35
Speaker 10: who happened to have been driving within a mile of
35:37
Speaker 10: a crime scene. Does not make him guilty. I realize
35:40
Speaker 10: the counter arguments to all of this, but I'm saying,
35:43
Speaker 10: as far as the defense is concerned, it's a mile hold.
35:47
Speaker 2: Har Yeah, he's in the neighborhood and he parks close
35:50
Speaker 2: to the home. The white Lantra is much closer than
35:56
Speaker 2: a mile.
35:57
Speaker 1: It's a one minute.
35:58
Speaker 2: Walk from where they car is parked at four seven,
36:03
Speaker 2: only leaving at.
36:04
Speaker 1: A high rate of speed at four twenty.
36:06
Speaker 2: The best argument they've got right there is, yeah, it's
36:09
Speaker 2: a white Alantra, but it's not my guy.
36:11
Speaker 1: He happened to.
36:12
Speaker 2: Be out in his white Alantra gazing at the moon
36:16
Speaker 2: and stars, but that's not his Elantra. But it doesn't
36:20
Speaker 2: end their ridder. This is like him raising his hand
36:25
Speaker 2: going I did it listen.
36:26
Speaker 3: At five twenty six am, a white sedan is next
36:29
Speaker 3: recorded on surveillance footage at e Ands Services on Johnson
36:33
Speaker 3: Road in Pullman. Footage at a Pullman sunset mark then
36:36
Speaker 3: shows the car headed north on State Route two. Seventy.
36:39
Speaker 3: Cameras on the WSU campus record the vehicle making its
36:43
Speaker 3: way north near Beasley Coliseum, which is about a mile
36:46
Speaker 3: from Coburger's student department.
36:48
Speaker 7: Brian Coberger's defense team is asking the judge to limit
36:51
Speaker 7: expert testimony from FBI Special Agent Nicholas Balance, the member
36:54
Speaker 7: of CAST, a cellular analyst survey team that specializes in
36:59
Speaker 7: location least on cell phone records. The defense says call
37:04
Speaker 7: detail records provide partial alibi corroboration. Balance is prepared to
37:09
Speaker 7: speak about the location of Coburger's cell phone before and
37:12
Speaker 7: after the student homicides.
37:14
Speaker 2: Wow, no wonder the defense wants that suppressed and more listen.
37:21
Speaker 3: Jared and Heather Barnhardt work with Celebrate, with extensive experience
37:25
Speaker 3: in digital forensics. Celebrate forensic specialists use specialized software and
37:29
Speaker 3: techniques to extract data from electronic devices. They analyzed Coburger's
37:34
Speaker 3: computer and cell phone data to determine his whereabouts and
37:37
Speaker 3: activity before and after the murders. They also looked for
37:40
Speaker 3: signs of tampering or deletion of files. Hitler rules that
37:44
Speaker 3: the Barnhardt's testimony is admissible during the trial.
37:47
Speaker 1: To Scott Iiker, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa? Who did I
37:50
Speaker 1: hear tampering? Deletion of files?
37:54
Speaker 2: You know the last time I cleaned out my text
37:56
Speaker 2: Never Scott Iiker with me founding member I Cellular Analysis
38:01
Speaker 2: serve a team, an expert in this, Scott Iiker, what.
38:06
Speaker 1: Do they say?
38:07
Speaker 6: Well, this is damaging evidence, especially if you're putting any
38:11
Speaker 6: cellular data that the defendant has along with the phone,
38:15
Speaker 6: of the camera, stuff of the video and you start
38:19
Speaker 6: matching up the timelines, very very important evidence that to present.
38:23
Speaker 6: And I can see why the defense doesn't want it
38:25
Speaker 6: in because it is damaging this cellular data and the
38:29
Speaker 6: self right information has been proven time and time again
38:33
Speaker 6: to be reliable in court. So they judge made the
38:37
Speaker 6: good decision and I'm glad he found there was no
38:39
Speaker 6: legal basis to exclude them and he's not throwing them.
38:42
Speaker 1: Upon you know too.
38:44
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan joining as professor forensics, break it down
38:49
Speaker 2: for me. Did you hear the words delete tamper with evidence?
38:55
Speaker 2: Because a jury hears this expert take the stay in
38:59
Speaker 2: and talk about Coburger potentially deleting or destroying evidence, it's over.
39:06
Speaker 1: Why would he destroy evidence if he was innocent.
39:09
Speaker 11: It's a thread that runs through this entire case. Remember,
39:11
Speaker 11: we also have evidence that there was an attempt to
39:17
Speaker 11: clear out the cachet with the Amazon purchases as well. Nancy,
39:21
Speaker 11: you see this pattern that's developing here and to this
39:25
Speaker 11: point about the overlay of the area, it's very compelling.
39:29
Speaker 11: You know, there's one other piece that we that we
39:31
Speaker 11: haven't really mentioned. That cell phone actually had pinged back
39:37
Speaker 11: in that area the next morning. You recall that, and
39:42
Speaker 11: so almost as a confirmatory drive by perhaps no one
39:46
Speaker 11: really knows at this point in time, so he may
39:49
Speaker 11: have returned that morning just to see if there was
39:52
Speaker 11: any activity around the home. And this goes back to
39:56
Speaker 11: what we said earlier about the roommates. You've got these
39:59
Speaker 11: poor kids that are in this place and they're losing
40:02
Speaker 11: their minds in there. But he wants to casually drive
40:05
Speaker 11: by and see if anybody is caught wind of this ship.
40:08
Speaker 1: You know, Joshua Ritter, you're a veteran trial lawyer.
40:11
Speaker 2: We're talking about how he can get out of the
40:14
Speaker 2: car evid as by claiming, well, yeah, it looks like
40:17
Speaker 2: my car, but it's not my car, even though it
40:19
Speaker 2: went all the way back toward less than one mile
40:21
Speaker 2: from his Pullman address and it left from there as well.
40:26
Speaker 2: We're talking about cell phone data, whether he deleted data.
40:31
Speaker 2: But the reality is it boils down to this. His
40:33
Speaker 2: DNA is on the NFE sheet. It just can't get
40:38
Speaker 2: away from that. Everything else again is gravy.
40:42
Speaker 10: No, you're right, the whole case hinges on that. I
40:44
Speaker 10: don't even think you have a filed case without that. Well,
40:47
Speaker 10: and certainly we don't even know if they would ever
40:49
Speaker 10: even have a suspect without that. So the whole case
40:53
Speaker 10: where the prosecution comes down to that DNA, and that's
40:56
Speaker 10: why you saw the defense fight so vigorously to have
41:00
Speaker 10: it thrown out legally. That failed, and now they're making
41:03
Speaker 10: attempts to somehow explain it, because without some sort of
41:05
Speaker 10: innoctant explanation as to why their client's DNA is on
41:09
Speaker 10: that knife sheet, they've got major problems.
41:11
Speaker 13: Now.
41:11
Speaker 10: The one avenue that they have here is they keep
41:14
Speaker 10: talking about this being touched DNA or transferred DNA meaning
41:18
Speaker 10: DNA that you can't exactly say. Does that mean the suspect,
41:23
Speaker 10: the person whose DNA is the contributor, actually touched that item,
41:26
Speaker 10: or was it transferred there by some other object or person,
41:31
Speaker 10: or was it put there that object where the DNA
41:35
Speaker 10: was recovered from by someone else. These are the arguments
41:38
Speaker 10: that it seems like the defense might be exploring in
41:40
Speaker 10: this case.
41:41
Speaker 2: We remember American hero Detangis Service officer Michael Wall La
41:46
Speaker 2: County Probation passed away in the line of duty fourteen
41:50
Speaker 2: years with law enforcement. Leays behind a graving daughter Aubrey,
41:55
Speaker 2: sister Juel Dion Angelique.
41:59
Speaker 1: And brother Sylvester.
42:01
Speaker 2: American hero officer Michael Wall, Nancy Grace sarting Off goodbye
42:08
Speaker 2: FA