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PREVIEW: Andrew Sullivan · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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  Get a humans welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas and what a treat, what a delight
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  dissecting dangerous ideas, arguing for dangerous ideas, wrestling with dangerous ideas has
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  been the life's work of today's guest, the one and only Andrew Sullivan.
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  He was one of the most famous and influential people arguing for gay marriage long, long,
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  long, long before it was popular. He was the first person to publish a major article about it
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  to write a major American article about it. That was back in 1989. He wrote the book on it in
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  1995 that was entitled Virtually Normal and when the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage
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  in the United States in 2013, many intellectuals and political journalists looked at Andrew Sullivan
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  and anointed him the most influential political writer of his generation. He was born and raised
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  in the UK. He went to Oxford University then he moved to America and got his PhD in politics at
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  Harvard University and as a gay British Catholic conservative in America, he began to dominate
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  cultural debates. You would see him on TV all the time on Bill Maas show. You would read him
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  in print in London's Daily Telegram for the Sunday Times or the Atlantic magazine or Time
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  magazine or the New York Times magazine or New York magazine arguing about everything from AIDS
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  to the Iraq War to Barack Obama's candidacy. Andrew also pioneered online journalism as one of the
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  first superstar bloggers. He created the online blog Daily Dish in the year 2000 and around that
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  time a little fetus by the name of Josh Seps became aware of Andrew's blog and subsequently
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  of the book that he had written back in 1995 virtually normal and it blew the top of my head off.
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  Here was this strange, articulate, liberal-minded, egalitarian, universalist sort of 19th century
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  Catholic Englishman arguing, convincing not just America as a whole but American conservatives
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  specifically that gay people should be able to get married. We talk about that fight, the
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  opposition to gay marriage from gays themselves in the 80s and 90s, the transgender culture wars of
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  the 2020s, the experience of living through HIV and AIDS. Andrew is HIV positive himself has been
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  since the mid 90s. We talk about the LGBTQIA plus community Andrew's college life in Ronald
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  Reagan's America and how he won over a conservative country to what was then a radical gay agenda
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  and how liberals might just be able to do it again. I hope you enjoy as much as I did the one.
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  The Onal. Andrew Sulla.
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  One day I'm going to ride an old biocuriness, you're going to be called Flem. It's a memoir
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  because I've just drowned in Flem's and I was a little kid. I have the worst lungs,
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  what they do is give me Flem. Oh my goodness. Does the sea air have the Flem?
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  No, the ocean. No, you need deserts basically. If you want to cut down on the Flem,
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  you don't want to go to places full of mold spores, rotting wood and currently a big blast of
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  tree com everywhere. It's like it's an arboreal bucaki out there right now. What is it?
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  Is it sap or what's the pollen pollen right? Oh, I wouldn't be good with that. Yeah. Yeah,
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  no, it's just I guess everywhere and everything. Well, if you want desert, then you can come to
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  Australia and walk from Sydney to Perth. We've got a list. There's like thousands of miles of
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  nothing apart from that. Well, I shouldn't say nothing. The indigenous elders would shoot on
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  if I said nothing. It's a timeless, you know, bounty, but there's no, there's no jacket.
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  When I was, when I was about 12 years old, I watched Walk About on TV, which is my introduction
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  to Australia, I guess. Don't even know it. Oh, come on. Sorry. It's a very famous movie in the 70s
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  called Walk About with Jenny Agata and this aborigini kid and it's it's you should look it up.
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  Walk about. All right. It's a big story. I mean, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it was before I was alive.
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  See, you've got the fuck off energy now. It doesn't. I was in college.
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  I would not.
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  Oh, fuck you. Welcome back to Andrew Sullivan Scrolls IMDB. I'm just trying to prove I didn't
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  look at it. Looking for a small Australian movie. It was quite life-changed you for a young man
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  because it was there was nudity, which you don't really see. There were boobies, which of course
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  didn't do a huge amount for me, but it was, it was stirring somehow, stirring in the
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  loins for 12-year-olds amount. I was, yeah, there's, it wasn't there like a whole thing about like
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  young kids before pornography would get national geographic magazines so that they could see the
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  pendulous breasts of native women. Well, I'm curiously masturbated over like, you know,
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  African tribes people. No, I, I used to wait for the Sunday, every now and again, you get a
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  Sunday magazine and they'd have some maybe some sexy guys in it and occasionally they'd do
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  fashion spreads and so on. I remember this once fashion spread happened of boxes shorts and
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  they had lots of boxes in boxes shorts. I get the palm, very clever. But I was, I was, I was
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  bowled over by this. I couldn't believe so I used to wait, wait till the thing had gone all
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  because they would pile them up about four weeks of time and when it was about to be trashed,
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  I would slip it out and cut them out and you would slip it out. My own little comic roll with
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  the palms on slipping it out. Little comic, the cutout comic book of all these hot men. There
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  was. That was what I was doing when I was 12 or 13. What's the Sunday magazine that would have
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  these pseudo photographic boxes? Oh, right. It was all at once all it was. Right. In a new time.
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  In a new time. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you may, it may do. Yeah. Well, you did what
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  you had to, didn't you? You did. I mean, I imagine, well, so it talked to me first about just after
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  that when you got to the States and when you were like bang around in the 80s, I'm interested in this
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  period and what that was like. Like, I mean, what's it? Was it like being at Harvard in the 80s?
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  Well, I arrived in America at a very weird moment. I arrived just after the LA Olympics and just
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  before the Reagan re-election. And so America was about to come, basically, who was having this
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  incredible conversation. It's going from worse to bad to terrible to offensive. Super exciting.
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  But the adult content label on this episode. It was that people were nationally orgasmic. It was,
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  this was Ferris Bueller's Day Off period. Yeah. This is Reagan running for re-election. This
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  was morning in America time. The place was, it's very hard to explain. It was very helpful to
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  understand coming here to feel this energy. I remember beforehand, before I came to America,
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  I never expected to stay because I had very snooty English attitudes towards the place,
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  stupid snooty English attitudes towards the place. But when I got here, the excitement was
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  palpable. I wore a Reagan 80 button in my English high school. So that's how out there I was,
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  which believe it or not, this pissed off Kirstaumer, who was in my own class.
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  And presumably the point. It was part of the point, yes. I loved this new wave of
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  individualism, of anti-collectivism, of standing up to the communist once and for all,
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  restoration and some kinds of respect for religious belief and religious life. I mean, it was
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  and a vindication of the free market. It was, these were heady times, if you were a young right
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  winger, especially if you were a very lonely young right winger in your own class and your own
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  educational stratum. And so you kind of went out of the limb in the late 70s, early 80s with
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  Thatcher and Reagan. Everybody hated you. Then you appeared group. Then it turned out they were
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  awesome. They really were. I was spoiled in a way. They were really among the most effective
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  politicians of my lifetime. And I was on their side. So it was, it was really amazing. And that whole
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  ride through the 80s through the fall of the wall in 89. And then the wonderful 90s, which
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  was what we'd all been hoping could happen once we got past the cold war. That was a very
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  exhilarating time to be thinking and alive as a sort of ride of center person in the elite.
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  And how did your social groups intersect like we have this image of 1970s gay life in places like
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  New York being is very underground and kind of debaucherous and almost radical, you know, pre HIV
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  place of hedonism, this subterranean universe. But then you're talking about quite a buttoned up
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  Reagan era kind of elite conservative milieu. Where were you?
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  Well, I was, I was at Harvard. So, um, it was up the road. And so, you know, it was Harvard.
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  Liberals were dominant. You are a weirdo because of this. But nonetheless, I was having a ball.
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  I wasn't out really at that point. Um, I certainly had never had any interaction with other dude.
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  It took me a couple more years. No, maybe not quite that long, but a little while
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  before I screwed up the courage as it were to try that out. And America, of course,
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  was a fantastic place to do that because it was the equivalent of coming from a small town
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  to a big city in a way. No one knew who you were really. So all that stuff was left behind. And I
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  had already developed whether I liked it or not, a kind of profile in England you do. I mean,
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  you if you went to Oxford as I did and you you were president of the union as I was and
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  in the in the in the theater there and in the in the social world there and in the intellectual
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  world there, you already marked out to be a member of the British elite in a way. And I was one
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  of the classic ones who was, uh, came from a family with no real college, no college education.
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  Um, um, but ambitious and this was how they bought you off, you know, they gave you this amazingly
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  illizion, beautiful time in these beautiful buildings in this dreamy town. Um, and,
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  and then Harvard struck me as a little bit of a knockoff of all that, but I liked it nonetheless.
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  Um, so what did you say you were reading Aristotle and Plato and teaching political theory to
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  undergraduates and reading history and doing what I liked it. It really wasn't really wasn't anything
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  much than that. Um, so you weren't you weren't falling around with guys in college. You were,
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  you were basically celibate and how did that so this element? How did you think about gayness?
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  I mean, because it was pretty soon after that that you were writing, you know, public pieces about
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  gay marriage and the foundation of work and like one of the first big pieces in the late 80s about
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  arguing for this thing that at the time sounded completely hair-brained to everybody at a time when
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  even gay sex was still illegal in a lot of states, including in Australia. Um, and so what's the
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  trajectory from being a celibate closeted like not even part of the community to like the, the flame
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  carrying champion? Well, there's a, you know, there's a, there's a personal story in a way as well as
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  a, let's say, a political one. What's the personal one? The personal one is that, you know, one day I,
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  I go to a party where I'm introduced to this guy who's a airline pilot actually. Um, and actually
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  a really charming dude and I say, well, let's go for date.
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  A date, okay, so I went on a date with this guy. Before I went on the date, I went to confession.
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  I did and I sat down and I said to give me father for I'm about to sin.
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  Um, I want to be honest with you. I'm pretty sure I'm attracted to this person. I don't know
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  what's going to happen on our date, but I, and I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong as such. Um,
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  and I just want to get it out there, you know, because I know what I'm not supposed to do. I don't
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  know what I'm going to do. And the priest said, what do you want to learn? Because, uh, the priest,
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  he was wonderful, actually, and was gay and had a boyfriend the time I didn't know, but I
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  subsequently found out said, well, I can't tell you, you know, that you can, you know, commit a sin,
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  but I, but I would encourage you to come back here next week and we'll keep the the conversation
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  going, the dialogue going about you being a young man in the church and, uh, it was very important
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  for me to kind of be up front with the church on this from the get go. I wasn't going to run from
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  and then it happened and I mean, nothing happened. I mean, I didn't really have what you might
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  think of as sex sex for a couple more years, but, uh, I, uh, I was amazed that, uh, how different
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  my life felt as soon as I realized that everything would make more sense this way. Um, and the
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  exhilaration and the relief of coming out of a very, very strict, um, I guess the word repressed
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  might be one word for it, but I didn't look feel that repressed, but I was definitely expressing
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  myself in ways that I can now see what partly a function of repressing something inside myself.
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  And as soon as that happened, as honestly, it's very simple. As soon as I realized there's
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  nothing wrong with this, in fact, this is kind of amazing. That was it. I came out to everyone,
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  almost immediately. I told my friends, I told the woman I was sort of dating. Um, I,
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  an important person to advise. It was important. Yes. Uh, and she was wonderful about it and,
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  and so that was that. That was really what happened. I went on to my work and I was, I, I,
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  I went on a few days. I went out to this disco, local disco and Cambridge, which is really,
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  really fun. And does it still exist? I think it does actually. It's called campus man reyes in,
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  it's in central square. Um, and, and Friday nights were a real excitement. Um, but I was also
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  big into theater, actually. I, um, I played Hamlet on the, at Harvard, and I played, um,
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  Allen in Equus and directed, directed, uh, my own version of four quartets by Elliott. I was in
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  the most sort of Venice on the, the, the, the main stage in the American Playhouse. And that's
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  what I had been at Oxford too. I'd really been known as an actor and debater rather than as, uh,
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  a thinker writer. What was the most challenging thing about playing Hamlet?
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  The part itself, you know, it's, you, you wrestle with it and you're like, who is this person? And
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  shockingly, the text doesn't really help you. The, the, he's actual character, like,
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  it's strangely elusive. Uh, well, that's the part of it. It's nothing to hang on to. I know,
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  it's nothing to hang on to. You realize that he's sort of an impersonation of pure thought.
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  And so he's, and so attitude to act that was a real challenge because some of the
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  scenes don't make a huge amount of emotional sense, actually, is, I don't think I haven't really,
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  I certainly don't think I mastered it, but I had a good go at it. And we did the uncut. So
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  the other challenge you think was actually remembering it all just part in Shakespeare.
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  Had you seen, I've seen you'd seen the Olivier film. No, I had no, okay, good.
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  Because that would have been impossible to shake. Like it's such a distinctive performance.
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  Yeah. Which is why I wouldn't want it, why I'm to have seen it. Um, uh, and we actually did it.
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  It was, it was funny. It was, this was, this dates it. The, the theme music was Frank and
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  goes to Hollywood. Um, and, uh, and the, the advertising campaign on, on the campus was called
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  Frankie says relax. Um, and no, Hamlet says relax. Sorry if you give me, and, and it was, it was,
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  it was too all modern dress and done in a sort of weird amphitheater with, with, with bleachers,
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  either side, it was fun. Really fun. And, um, and at this time, are you writing sort of political
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  and cultural stuff as well? Are you just, no, no, I am, I'm writing my papers. I'm, I wanted to
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  take time out. I, and this sounds naive, but I was. I, it's genuine too. I wanted to figure out
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  what I thought about the world. You know, I had, I, I sort of emerged rather overly and formed,
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  really, as a young person. Um, I was super gracious. It was way too ahead of my skis, really.
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  I, I thought I knew everything, but I hadn't experienced anything. So it was sort of,
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  I had the sort of buddhist syndrome, is it where I looked like a human being and seemed
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  but I had not even been a human being. Yeah. Uh, and so I, I wanted to say, well, I'm going to
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  read all of it. I'm going to start from the beginning. I'm going to start with, you know,
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  Plato. I'm going to start, I'm going to do the entire thing. And, and I did. And I loved it.
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  And I had, it was incredibly fruitful experience, uh, the whole thing at Harvard.
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  I'm very, very lucky and I have nothing. And, and with, and I, with Harvey Mansfield,
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  he was my supervisor. He's another joy of it. We, I would spend every Friday, I'd go to his
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  place, his offices and we would spend an hour reading Plato's Republic. And we got through in
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  two years, we got to book six. Um, and just to be able to sit there with one of the great, uh,
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  scholars and weigh the words of this person who lived and wrote, you know, two and a half
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  thousand years ago, um, longer than that and longer than that, uh, was just an amazing thing.
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  And I wanted to write and I had spent, and I've been an intern at the Daily Telegraph in
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  London the summer before I came to America. And so I applied in the summers,
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  uh, for internships in places. And I spent the first summer, however, traveling the states
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  with a friend of mine. And we went through, I think we went from Miami to San Diego, up to Seattle,
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  back to Boston. We did the whole thing. Yeah. It was amazing. And did you go through the
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  working on it? Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I loved the South. It's hence some beautiful and, uh,
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  exotic to me. And I fell in love with certain parts of them. I fell in love with motel sixes.
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  I fell in love with, I fell in love with Denny's. I fell into Denny's. Yeah. I fell in love
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  with, with the American Dino. It's amazing food. And I went with a certain, long menu that has
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  like every single kind of type of, you know, chicken schnitz, chicken schnitz, it's always like
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  pasta on the side of bazillion different things. How can you have like a roast chicken and also a
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  pork loin? Like what are they doing? Yes. Yeah. And it all be served by a number of 50 something
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  year old, old ladies who had been there for 25 years. Yeah. And took no shit from anyone. Yeah.
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  Reddably efficient. Yeah. What they did. And for an Englishman, they kept refilling my coffee,
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  which I know in 1985, six, uh, for an English person, that was kind of a shock. The sheer
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  land of plenty. Um, I mean, I don't actually have a cigarette in their mouth while they're
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  pouring your coffee. They're about to. It's, it's, well, they just damn shame if that's the case.
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  And he out of their mouth as they give it to you. Um, I hadn't been to a restaurant until I
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  went to college. I mean, the idea would go out to a restaurant. I mean, we didn't have the money.
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  Yeah. It was a ridiculous expense. Um, but this is relatively cheap and a little stipend. I was
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  awesome. This is a time when, I mean, if it's 8586, then AIDS is just beginning to ravage.
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  It is. Well, right. It's starting to make headlines and your and George Michael's freedom was on
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  the radio. Right. Right. And part of the, you know, the response from gay people and from gay
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  intellectuals was to split into a couple of possible camps, one of which is this is the time to
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  double down on the fundamentally radical vision of, uh, of gayness that the sexuality should be
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  a catalyst for an overhaul of culture and a, and a demolition of stayed conservative patriarchal
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  traditions. Um, and then the other side of which you were one of the most prominent advocates
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  was actually this is an opportunity to bring us into the fold of small-seat conservative
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  cultural values. Yeah. Well, for me, it proved the ghetto was not viable.
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  AIDS. We needed AIDS did because we needed the world. We couldn't do this ourselves. We needed
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  the science. We needed the research. We needed the drugs. We needed the contacts. We needed the
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  reach the straight people to persuade them. There was, this was proof positive that shutting
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  yourself off in a tiny little radical enclave was fine unless shit happens and you have to realize
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  you, you live in a broader society and you have to come to terms with how you integrate in
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  that broader society. And of course, the first thing was preventing death. I mean, that was the
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  first thing before you got to politics. It was like, first of all, how do we stop this? Secondly,
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  if we get it, how do we help each other? Um, and I was, I was not, I mean, back then the,
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  in the eight people forget, the eighties were not where when AIDS was really, really, really
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  happening. The nineties were when AIDS happened. The deaths peaked in 95. So although it was happening,
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  it was terrifying. It was scared. It didn't really become this unbelievable onslaught of sickness
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  and death until the nineties really got going. And then it just almost doubled every year. It was
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  just insane. And so my, I mean, I saw this from the corner of my eye as it were. I wasn't really
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  that sexually active. Uh, when I was in Boston, growing my PhD, um, I definitely got in touch
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  with a lot of local gay groups. I wanted to, uh, start, uh, organizing the gay right then because
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  it was actually the first elected young gay Republican in Boston. I went to Bill Well, the man called
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  Mike Duffy. I knew back then. This is 1989. Anyway, long story short, I was out. I was feeling my
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  way in the world. I was a grown up finally. And I did an internship at the New Republic. And
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  I had a great time. I came back for a visit around the editorial meeting. There was a conversation
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  about domestic partnership and AIDS. And they said, well, they looked at me suddenly as if I was
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  supposed to have an opinion. They all kind of knew I was gay, but I hadn't really written or said
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  anything about it at that point. Certainly not too many straight people. And I'm like, well,
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  I don't see why we can't just get married. Why, why, why isn't that the obvious conservative
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  position? You want people to commit to each other. You want them to exercise responsibility. You
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  want them to be part of their own families. Uh, it would also be an incredible psychological
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  healing process for us to be able to participate in the critical institution and ceremony of
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  family life, which we had been excluded from. So I found myself saying this instead of
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  in an argument. And Kinsley looked at me and he said, you should write that. And in fact,
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  you should write that now. You're still not scared. You're not too scared to write it. So I'm
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  like, oh, whatever, Michael, I got to go. So he said, no, do it. So I went back and bugged me.
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  I was embossed and bugged me. So I just wrote this out rather briefly. He sent it back with some
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  smart as usual edits. I was like, okay. And I realized this means I'm kind of out to the world.
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  Even though I didn't say I'm out gay and it didn't only a gay person would have written such
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  an article at that point. No straight people ever wrote about anything gay. So if you wrote about
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  it, you were suddenly the gay person. Well, especially not as an idea or as radical as that.
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  I mean, for young listeners, it's probably hard to imagine how quickly things have changed. But
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  even when I was, you know, in school in the late 90s, it was when it was a perfectly acceptable
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  thing to be gay in big progressive cities like the one that I lived in. But it was still weird,
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  fringe, different. And the idea of it being of something like marriage being on the table was,
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  it was not in our universe until I read your book in the early 2000s. And I realized that there
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  was actually a case for it. And then it could actually happen at some point in my lifetime. But
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  the idea that it would happen within a decade was fanciful. Yeah. And I personally didn't
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  think it would happen in my lifetime. I mean, I thought it was an interesting thought experiment. And
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  as I sort of voiced it, I realized, you know, why hasn't this been raised before? I would say this
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  when I went out and give some talks about this. I began to give some talks. And I would say things
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  like, you know, people are asked me why are you bringing this up? And I'm like, well, the real
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  question is, why did we never have the self esteem to raise it before? Why did we always think
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  we're unworthy of it? That's what this is about. This should have been it's the most salient
• 28:28
  institution to an emotional experience of love and relationship. That's it. That's how we
• 28:37
  measure it. That's how we define it. That's how we think of it. And we somehow deep down thought,
• 28:45
  we're not worthy of this. We shouldn't have this. We can't. And then we'd made it made ourselves
• 28:49
  feel better about this by saying, well, we don't want it anyway. It's all a bunch of patriarchal
• 28:56
  heterosexual bullshit. And again, people find this hard to believe. But I'll tell you the truth is
• 29:04
  that in the first, like, maybe 10 years, the strongest opposition came from Gaze.
• 29:12
  My book, Virtue Normal, was picketed by the lesbian Avengers. I was targeted as a right-wing fascist.
• 29:23
  It was regarded as a betrayal of homosexuality being a favor of this because
• 29:29
  we just articulate what the most generous interpretation of their perspective would be.
• 29:35
  That we were buying into an oppressive, violent, patriarchal institution that had excluded us
• 29:43
  and we were thereby accepting and going over the enemy. And you were groveling for what
• 29:50
  they've created instead of building your own future. Yes. To which my point was, well, if you
• 29:56
  wanted to do that, fine. You could do whatever you want with your life. You already can.
• 30:02
  But it was an interesting moment. I mean, in 95, when Virtue Normal came out and I was in London,
• 30:09
  actually, I did an event there and they would let you just give your own speech about gay
• 30:15
  marriage. That was too much. They always had to have someone to push the other position. This is
• 30:20
  in the gay world. They had to have another gay person to tell the world that they didn't believe it.
• 30:26
  The condescension was unbelievable. He was this kid, this creep, this whoever.
• 30:36
  We did the little thing and then after it was Q&A and someone stood up and it was pita-tachal.
• 30:40
  I don't know whether he pita-tachal is. He was a legend. He was the biggest gay rights person
• 30:44
  in the UK at that point and still is a pretty prominent activist there. And he said, I just
• 30:52
  want you to know that here in England, we despise marriage. We reject marriage as a patriarchal
• 31:00
  institution that we thoroughly disown. It was huge round of applause and there was quite
• 31:07
  and then Wade Feet responded and I said, well, let me just say this, with all due respect pita,
• 31:14
  you don't reject marriage because you can't reject marriage because marriage has never been offered
• 31:21
  to you. I'm fighting for the right for you to reject it and the place then went very silent and
• 31:31
  then I felt this wave of applause begin and you realized, oh, I'm not trying to tell people,
• 31:38
  you need to, you know, you need to all get back into your Victorian outfits or anything. I am
• 31:42
  arguing that we have a choice. We should be able to choose like every straight person does.
• 31:47
  Do I want to live my life with a formal commitment to another person forever or not? You have to
• 31:55
  and many days won't. I'm sure and fine. It's up to you. I'm not a moralizer here but I do think
• 32:04
  it would be humanizing for us. I do think it would be good for us to have some kind of idea
• 32:11
  where our sex and love will end up. I have some future for ourselves as we know heads and I do think
• 32:19
  that would help us develop a stronger internal society that could be more immune to things
• 32:27
  like AIDS and HIV and also would heal our families and it's a way in which we can
• 32:37
  explain to straight people that we're human like them. In fact, instead of spending our lives
• 32:43
  reminding them why we're different than them, why we're queer, why we're weird, we might,
• 32:51
  at the same time, recognize that we have a lot in common with them. We grew up with them.
• 32:56
  They are we are part of their families. We don't have our own gay, we born to straight families
• 33:03
  and we are humans and we love as well as get horny and the two mix up and we've understood
• 33:12
  as humans for a very long time that this coupling in responsibility and exclusivity is a
• 33:22
  enobling and worst wild thing and I'm sick of having it demeaned in some way.
• 33:31
  What's so interesting, Andrew, about that moment that you're articulating, that repost is that
• 33:39
  it universalizes the question and it appeals to foundational basic beliefs that people have
• 33:45
  about freedom and liberty. Basic instincts, what you're doing is you're basically flipping the
• 33:50
  script and saying yes, you're looking at it this way but here's a way that I can present it to you
• 33:55
  which is tethered to actually deeper values that we all share. They really have nothing to do
• 33:59
  with gayness or not gayness or marriage or not marriage that have to do with the human instinct
• 34:04
  for self aspiration, for soft determination, for a control of one's destiny and so on.
• 34:08
  And to be able to make the choices that you want to make. And what's striking about that is
• 34:12
  that we've lost on the left so much of that art of persuasion, right? We've lost the ability to
• 34:18
  tether our ideals to deeper widespread universalist aspirations that middle America and middle
• 34:26
  Australia and middle Britain hold and we've become increasingly, I suppose, shrill and isolated
• 34:32
  in the way that we try to articulate our vision for ourselves, for our group and our rights and our
• 34:37
  and it's like, what's that? I've got a human. Well, if you've listened to this much of the
• 34:45
  episode then you must enjoy it presumably unless you're just listening for masochistic reasons.
• 34:50
  So you should listen to the rest of it and the way you do that is by subscribing to the premium
• 34:54
  feed where you not only get to hear the rest of this delightful conversation and trust me,
• 34:58
  oh it gets better than what you just heard. But you also get to hear no ads, zero ads.
• 35:04
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• 35:13
  thing we're now on Apple premium podcast as well. So with one click, Apple will just subscribe
• 35:19
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• 35:22
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• 35:28
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• 35:32
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• 35:37
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• 35:43
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• 35:48
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• 35:53
  conversations by going into your Apple podcasts and clicking subscribe. I love you. If you don't do
• 35:59
  that, that's fine and I'll see you the next free episode, I guess. Take care.