Latest / The Owner's Box @WashU Olin / Episode 3: The Beautiful Game
Transcript
- Season 1, Episode 3: The Beautiful Game INTRODUCTION Soccer. The beautiful game It is a phrase thought to have been uttered and then popularized by the Brazilian master, Pele. But as a kid growing up in the suburbs of Chicago, I never quite got it. Delicious orange slices at halftime aside, soccer was a gaggle of suburban minions running in packs after a ball... entertaining, yes.... a nice distraction for parents, yes... and something I now get. But beautiful? Not quite my jam. Perhaps this lack of love is linked to growing up in the United States. My country is not historically known for soccer affection. Brian Phillips, the writer behind the wonderful soccer podcast, “22 goals,” explains our ambivalent relationship like this: “When you’re the world’s most confident superpower and you’re bad at something, you can’t be bad at it just because you’re bad at it. You have to be bad at it because it’s some kind of secret global conspiracy.” So, my love of soccer never took off in Chicago. But what if I had grown up just a few miles south and west on i55 in the city of St. Louis? Today on The Owner’s Box, we explore the decision to launch a new MLS Club in the city of St. Louis, and what we can learn from the family in the box behind it all. Bringing you insights on ownership from WashU Olin’s Koch Center for Family Enterprise. I’m your host, Peter Boumgarden, professor and director of the Center. Today we discuss how a multi-generational family enterprise has brought soccer back to St. Louis, and their hopes and plan to make an impact far beyond the pitch. PART 1 - ST LOUIS SOCCER HISTORY & THE COMPREHENSIVE FAMILY ENTERPRISE St. Louis, by all accounts, was and is a soccer city. Let me give you one small example. In 1950, the American National Team went to Brazil with 500 to 1 odds to win the World Cup. Spoiler alert, we didn’t win. But, this team did end up pulling off one of the greatest upsets in American soccer history, beating England 1 nill – a club widely thought to be the greatest team in the world. And what about our team? Well, first off – it was a team of amateurs. As Phillips recounts in his episode on the club – they had a goalie who drove a hearse for a living, a center back who worked in a meatpacking plant, and a fullback who stripped wallpaper in New Jersey. Specific to our story, this team had 5 of their starting 11 from this little city in St. Louis. It including Frank Borghi, who saved a late penalty kick, and Charlie Colombo, who made a famous rugby tackle" on Stanley Mortensen in the final minutes of the game. Yes.... the beautiful game, this one made up by a team of amateurs from St. Louis, the country’s soccer capital at the time. But 70 some odds years later, and almost 30 years after the opening of Major League Soccer, this town still lacked a club. That is, until it didn’t. Let’s start by hearing from one member of the family involved in changing that status – Andy Taylor. Andrew C. Taylor: I'm executive chairman of Enterprise, uh, rental, rental car, uh, which also has Alamo and National, and, uh, a variety of other mobility. B/usinesses that we have. I've been in this business since my father came home from his Cadillac job when I was 10 years old and said he's starting a new company, which everybody in my family got really excited about. He said, Hey, look, after flying off aircraft carriers, which is why we're named Enterprise. This starting a new business does not look very risky to me. So that's how we kind of got started. And he, we went, he went from one car to a hundred cars to a thousand cars to a million cars. And we're closing in on three. In the world of St. Louis, Andy Taylor is a business icon. Just like you can hardly walk around an airport without seeing one of their fleet, it is hard to find a part of St. Louis that hasn’t been impacted by the family’s philanthropy. A visit to the Gateway Arch.... the surrounding grounds were supported by the family. A walk through the world class Botanical Gardens? You have to enter through the Jack Taylor Visitor Center. Look to something like education and economic empowerment– the family has supported the St. Louis Public Schools Foundation, Ranken Technical College, the Boys and Girls Club, and the Urban League... just to name a few. I had the honor of meeting Andy last year when the Koch Center launched the WashU Olin Values and Data Case Competition. The case, written in partnership with recent MBA / MSW alum Jessica Timerman, focuses on the Taylor family’s work to balance purpose and performance in their launch of the newest MLS franchise, St. Louis CITY SC. We had 28 teams from across the country submit proposals for the first round. Selected finalists traveled to St. Louis to present in front a panel of judges, included representatives for the Family. What got us interested in this story was not soccer per se, but soccer as a path toward community impact. You can hear this in how Andy talks about their growth of philanthropy and how the family has come to think of shaping a community: Andrew C. Taylor: Well, some of it's just by accident, and some of it is family members had different opinions about what to do. My father was a very kind guy, and he was very appreciative of St. Louis, so he's the one who started our, the Enterprise Rent A Car Foundation, I think in 1982. [00:04:42] And I'm saying, I remember when he did that, and I'm saying to myself, what are we starting a foundation for? We're still a small company. You know, he, he wants to start giving away money, and you know, it's still hard earning. Andrew C. Taylor: that's right, that's right.[00:05:00] And, uh, um, but he, he was the, you know, the, the guy with that philanthropic side. And, and frankly, as we went forward, he was so good at teaching our next generation about philanthropy. And we can talk about that if you'd like, but, you know, I've been more of the, uh, planner, more of the strategy guy. And, uh, as we moved along, I looked at philanthropy that Jack started and I said, aha, this can really help our business. And, uh, so we started getting smart about how we use it, help our business in the sense that we can support our employees and. And it just all comes together in a nice piece, like we were talking a little while ago. That's great. Most business owners, at least at the start, are heads down in their work running the operation. This isn’t to say that they don’t care about philanthropy. Rather, it’s just that running a successful enterprise takes a lot of effort in and of itself. So, even if they are giving money away, there’s a good chance they aren’t thinking as strategically about this work as they are the work of their company. But in the case of Andy’s description, you have the early outline of a full family enterprise—from business, to family office, to family foundation... all imagined before they were perhaps sophisticated enough to warrant that model. Here is Andy again: Andrew C. Taylor: The, it's very interesting because when, when I came up with the idea of a family office, which had really proliferated in most larger businesses or private businesses, for sure. I mean, my family didn't know what a family office was. And a family office. As you well know, can be designed to do a lot of different things and shaped very differently, depending on what the family wants to do. So when we set up the family office, um, my view of the family office was to keep everybody on the same page as it relates to them viewing how they view the business. [00:06:46] I would keep the family together. We would do things were interesting together. The next generation would be educated. Um, and again, when you talk about money, we talk about philanthropy. We talk about those things that they're going to need to do later. Uh, we started this when they were in high school and, um, it's, it's, it's turned out rather well, but to your point, the family office picks up those pieces that people don't have responsibility for, if you will, but, um, and me, when I was running the business for over 25 years, you know, I didn't care about certain parts of what was going on in the family and, and the family office could pick up those pieces, do it better than I would do it. And they would, you know, do something with it. And, uh, that has really been a terrific asset to have. And, uh, we've ended up in a very good place with a family office, successful business. And, um, a successful family. So, what kind of models are out there if a family were to desire to build this kind of enterprise? Andrew C. Taylor: along the way? I was fortunate to meet some people that we talked about earlier, like Trott, who introduced me to people that were a generation or two ahead of us, that were wealthy, wealthier than we were, and they had had the family offices, they'd had the generational fight that, you know, might come later for us, um, they'd already had it, so I learned, I just wanted to learn as much as I could, and in fact, people now are coming to me, before I was going to others, They're coming to me and saying, what do I do? You know, I've got a kid that, you know, I don't know once if he wants to come to work for the business or not, because if he doesn't come to work for the business, so what am I going to do with the business? And so that's, that kind of stuff is very, it's very interesting. Um, I think that, uh, you know, in our case, it's just, just listening to other people.I, in fact, I tell people who have these dilemmas with their businesses and generational. Passing on is you don't have to invent anything new. All of that stuff is out there. You know, the, the legal machinations you got to do, the relationship things you have to do with the family, the educational things that are available. You don't have to reinvent anything. It's there. You just got to utilize it. But, where does soccer fit in to all of this? And, how does the family think about what it means to be successful in various ventures outside of their business operation? In the second part of this episode, we will shift to the role of soccer in the Taylor family enterprise, and what drove their interest in the investment in the beautiful game. Sponsor Message: But before we hear more from Andy and other members of the family, I want to take a moment to announce two new executive education programs launching out of Olin’s Koch Center for Family Enterprise. The first program, called PhilanthropyForward, is an invite only model for a family looking to strategically craft their impact in the world through philanthropy and giving. In this program, participants will work with cutting edge academics and leaders at some of the world’s best foundations, all with the goal of learning from and applying those best practices to their own philanthropy. Our second program – called “the strategic owner” uses this same kind of cohort model but applied to it to what it means to be a strategic owner of a family enterprise. Come into this program as a team, owners from across generations, senior leaders, or perhaps outside board members, and work together to develop a plan for long-term strategic ownership for your enterprise. Both programs launch in the Fall of 2024, so reach out to familyenterprise@wustl.edu. SECTION 2 - THE MOVEMENT INTO SOCCER A river city in the middle of the US, St. Louis boasts a long, rich soccer history. In the mid-1800s, more than half of the St. Louis population was foreign-born, and immigrants brought the popularity of soccer with them. Thomas Cahill, the first coach of the USA national team, was a St. Louis native. And remember that 1950 team of amateurs upsetting the world’s greatest club? Five of those starters came from around an Italian neighborhood in town called “The Hill.” In fact, every US World Cup team since has had at least one St. Louisan. This rich history was likely part of what led to a few attempts to bring an MLS Club to town. The first group attempted to bring Utah’s Real Salt Lake further east, and settle it in a new home on the river. But in response to the potential loss, the state of Utah provided public funding for a stadium in Sandy, and the team remained in Utah. A second attempt came from an investor group led by Boston Celtics co-owner Paul Edgerley and supported by St. Louis natives and business leaders, Jim Kavanaugh and Dave Peacock. This group relied in part on public financing, including $60 million to finance the stadium. Fresh off the loss of the Other Kind of Football team taking off for LA and leaving the stadium left behind, this motion failed to pass. And so, by the time of the 2017 vote, it appeared the city would remain soccer free. So, why did the Taylor family think that this might be the right time for them—and, why St. Louis? Andrew C. Taylor: Well, first of all, our family started the business in St. Louis. St. Louis welcomed my father's concept about leasing, leasing automobiles, which was new at the time. And so we are very grateful to St. Louis. And here we are at a position where, of privilege, where we have a successful business and we have resources that we've built up. And, um, we feel very close, a close kinship to the city and to its assets. So, where else should we apply those assets? And, um, we gravitate toward people that, um, have had the same issues here in St. Louis. We gravitate towards some of the not for profits that are successful and find out what their thinking is as far as how we can plug into that. And then we have the city soccer, which is different, because that, that is a for profit enterprise. However, the profit side will probably not be there for quite a while. With the interest of the Taylors solidified, the full investor group was formed. This first female majority-owned team in MLS consisted of Enterprise Holdings Foundation president Carolyn Kindle and female members of the Taylor family (Enterprise Holdings), Jim Kavanaugh, the CEO of World Wide Technology, and other members of the Kavanaugh family. By August 2019, the ownership group had officially landed their club. The plans began for a privately funded, one-of-kind, $667M sports district supported through relatively minor local tax breaks and incentives. In their first year of play in 2023, the club won their first 5 games, breaking an MLS record for expansion teams. They sent two players to the All-Star game, finished atop the Western Conference, and had Burki, my favorite player, win the award for goalkeeper of the year. But beyond their performance on the pitch, what makes investment in a sports club a valuable pursuit for a family’s capital. Let’s pause here for a moment to talk about the economics of ownership in the MLS. Every year for the last several years, Forbes puts out their list of the most valuable Major League Soccer clubs. In 2024, the top of that list was LAFC, with a valuation of $1.2B. This valuation is off of revenue of 140M, and operating income of $9M. The second on this list, Miami FC, at $1B on revenues of $118M and operating income of $8M. I bring up Miami because if you go back to Forbes’ 2023 list, Miami’s valuation was way down the list at $600M. The big difference? The signing of Messi and the superstar impact on club valuation. No, you are right this is not the kind of valuations you will see in European Clubs, where Forbes calculated last year that the world’s top 30 most valuable clubs were worth an average of 2.17B with Real Madrid edging out Manchester United at the top with 6B of value. But between 2019 and 2023, the average MLS team has climbed 85% in valuation, and that was all before the arrival of Messi. As for St. Louis CITY SC... In their first year on the list, perhaps reflecting some of their early success, Forbes estimated their value at $670M, on revenues of 70M and operating income just below break even. Not bad for a first-year campaign! SECTION 3 - THE URBAN IMPACT In the final section, we will explore the motivations beyond finances alone. After all, if the primary family goal was a financial return, there are likely several quicker and less risky ways to do so than MLS Club ownership. As you hear in this language of Andy, there model of impact is somewhere between the crude belief that business is an economic engine and philanthropy is a source of impact. Instead, in the strategy of this venture, you see an attempt to pursue both goals simultaneously in one venture. In other words, for the family, it has always been about more than soccer alone. Here is Owner, President, and CEO Carolyn Kindle reflecting on this midway through the club’s first season. Carolyn Kindle: Well, I think we need to continue to grow the awareness in the sport, and really the knowledge of the sport here in St. Louis. But you know, if you think about it, we've had an amazing first couple of years we've broken records. and so what we need to do is to continue to maintain that pace and continue to bring people into. I think the city ecosystem, as well as the MLS ecosystem as well. So one of the things I would say about Major League soccer is that it really needs to be all teams working together to make sure that we're successful and we stay relevant. Carolyn Kindle: And so I think, you know, it's easy to have sell out matches, you know, record setting merch sales so on and so forth. But we need to find a way to continue to continue that first and foremost. one of the things, though, from, you know, just a community perspective is, I've always said, when there are people in the St. Louis region wearing the names of our players on their kits. Then we've done a good job of making sure that our people feel like they have ownership in the players as well. because early on, the Commissioner said to us. you know, one of the true signs of success is when the Comp. When the community feels like they own the team, not the ownership owns the team. So, you know, going down more of the civic pride path. Yesterday we launched our first Mini pitch. The turnout was amazing, but it was a really proud moment to be able to talk about all of these things that we have been promising that we would do for the city, and delivering on them as well. because you have heard teams come out and say, we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do that. 2 or 3 years later there hasn't been any movement, whereas I feel like this club has really delivered on everything that they've promised. and then, of course, ha! I'd be risk, be remiss to not mention a beautiful stadium training facility headquarters that we have in downtown West. So it was an area that really had no activity at all. And now, whether non game day or game day were attracting. People were attracting events. Carolyn Kindle: And I think you're starting to see that just bringing that density and bringing that community together. Is helping really all of downtown. So whether it's Union Station, whether it's some of the small bars and restaurants. And so I think it's really done wonders for getting people out of their local, tiny communities and coming out to a bigger stage. Intentional throughout this project were designs to drive this effect. For example, the club engaged James Beard award-winning chef Gerard Craft in identifying the right local food vendors to bring into the stadium. The stadium, HQ, and practice facilities are all within the city borders, a real estate strategy unique in professional sports. And, central to a broad stadium use strategy, the goal from year one has been to drive density downtown by expanding the # of events beyond soccer alone. And, there is some evidence of success in this work. In February of 2024, a study from the University of Toronto using cell phone data found the average number of stops downtown increased almost 16% in February compared with March of 2023. That ranked St. Louis 26th in percentage change among 64 North American markets reviewed – an effect driven in large part by the downtown west project. You can hear in some of Kindle’s language a desire for the club to be a catalyst of broader economic development. This is often the language used when there is a big request for public funding as well. The challenge is that the economic ROI is not always clear. Nate Jensen, a former colleague of mine at WashU, now down at the University of Texas, put it bluntly that the average economic returns of a professional sports stadium is often equivalent to building a Target in the same location. While a stadium—football to take one example—will have much higher peaks of revenue across 8-10 games a season, the Target is open 24/7. In other words, economically, those small grocery stops and, in my case, sour patch kids purchased with a deep sense of guilt, really do add up over time. Suspicion of such claims of economic impact are in part why taxpayers voted down a recent stadium proposal in Kansas City, and why a Chicago Bears 4.7B stadium proposal, in part funded with 900M of public funding, have created some pause. In my adopted home town of St. Louis, the need for this kind of place-based economic development has come into focus after an April 10th WSJ article titled ““The Real Estate Nightmare unfolding in downtown St. Louis” hit the presses. One bright spot in that piece was its focus on the development of the downtown west corridor, the home of CITY PARK. Here is the author: “Some cause for hope is a short walk away. To the office district’s immediate west, the Downtown West neighborhood boasts loft apartments, a new soccer stadium and a train station-turned-amusement park. These developments have revived a once-abandoned industrial area, proving that people want to be in downtown St. Louis if it’s pleasant.” At the core of all of this is the question from another sports analogy... if you build it, will they come? To understand this a bit more, I spoke to Neal Richardson, the Chairman, President, and CEO of St. Louis Development Corporation, about how he makes sense of the impact of these kind of catalytic projects. Neal Richardson: We always have to evaluate on the project basis. You know the impact that they will have on a particular neighborhood. A particular community, not just the place, but the people overall but then also understanding if that project is going to attract people from across the city, across the region, or even across the country to visit that location. I think the the comparison that you asked me to ask within the question is between target and a a a stadium that's only occupied or attracting people. A certain period of time and a target obviously drive sales, tax revenue. It draws. And people 24, 7, almost 3, 65 into that area for a specific purpose of picking up something from a store, or or just doing retail shopping but a soccer stadium similar to the one that's being built that was has been built in downtown West has not only been a a pillar of hope and a beacon of light for downtown West, but it also has brought attention and awareness of the great things that downtown St. Louis has to offer, such as the investment where we've made in Union Station with the new aquarium in the wheel. but also other significant development projects such as the Butler Brothers. That's just been re renovated into now the victor approximately 400 new units of residential space that's going into that neighborhood. As a result of that stadium and that developer, Jerry Frosterman. Cam. Coming from Memphis, he's developed across the country, and he had an opportunity to invest that same amount of dollars into other cities, other neighborhoods, but because of that soccer stadium, that energy that it's brought, it's been able to drive greater energy and national interest from developers from across the country. And I think that is a different type of economic impact that's not as tangibly measured on the direct impact, for as a result of that stadium, but the overall pride, the overall attention that's being able to be raised about that neighborhood, and the excitement that it's brought. We've seen a heightened investment into infrastructure in that area because we know cars are coming. So we impacted it and adjusted the highway and the exit, the entrance. We also see, other hotel developers coming into the city. Really revitalize the historic area into a new vibrant economy that's going to be able to bring people from across the country to St. Louis in the city, and the heart of downtown, and visit some of our other retail shops. Other food and beverage offerings that we have available in that neighborhood. And that's something that a target, you know, may not be able to necessarily drive because again, they had a different economic impact. But with the cypress stadium being in the center of our urban core is monumental to driving economic growth outside of just the direct economic impact that comes as a result of that stadium being built. Since the beginning, the owner’s strategy has been rooted in a plan for broader economic development. Just last week, the club announced the results of an economic impact study done with St. Louis-based planning firm PGAV. One part of the study focused on the club’s first year of formal operations. This included 20 CITY SC games, 4 international matches, 15 CITY 2 games – the club’s reserve team – and over 200 private events. In total, these events pulled close to a million visitors downtown. 18% of these individuals were from outside the metro, and 10% from more than 100 miles away. In total, they estimate that the inaugural season generated $168 million in direct and indirect economic impact. Specific to tax, the CITY SC project catalyzed an additional $24 million in tax revenues, 5.1 of which went directly to the city. Zooming out from the first season in isolation, PGAV estimates that the 32-acre campus has created $1.4B of economic impact since 2020. But maybe here is the biggest irony of it all, given our earlier comparison of stadiums to 24/7 retail. This summer – a small footprint Target will open up in midtown, just over a mile from the stadium. Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too? Here, Jason Thein, the COO and General Counsel of the Club for much of the stadium project and initial launch of the club, articulates the strategy to build out a sports centered economic cluster: Jason P. Thein: Yeah, I mean. So when you talk about cluster development in particular, in downtown West, obviously with the National Geospatial Agency just north, half mile mile north. That's a tremendous opportunity that St. Louis has to really capitalize on us. It's a generational opportunity. And so if you think about a stadium in a soccer team: it, it is an amenity that many employees and the soccer demographic is exactly the demographic of employees that maybe technology companies that gravitate towards geospatial. And so the federal government has plopped this opportunity on our lap. We have a neighborhood around a stadium that would be phenomenal as an urban, dense, livable walkable community. We have some area ge geography nearby where we can start to develop that cluster and have some things, you know, an accelerator, some things along those lines that focus on geospatial. Some of that's happening already. If you look at the Globe building and it has skips in it. You know the beauty of some of this geospatial work. If it's gonna be done in conjunction with the Federal Government, is you? You have to have a skiff, and you can't do that at home. And so you need to. You have to have that physical presence. And so you start to build that cluster. You have the place where people can live. You have amenities like soccer. which generates hopefully retail and food and beverage. And then you start generating jobs and and hopefully, that kind of bleeds into the central business district as well, which can can ha! Already has some of this, but didn't kind of get that turned around as well. So, yes, this is about a family investing in a club to drive performance; but it is also a project for economic development for a city they love. But in a podcast centrally focused around narrative and story, I would be remiss without paying attention to the way a club can make us feel about ourselves. Is there a role of sports in changing the way a city self-identifies? In a recent story in the Financial Times, the author Lynsey Hanley reflected on the role of Liverpool’s coach, the soon to retire Jurgen Kloop, in how the soccer club’s success has changed the way the city sees itself. She writes: “Klopp is everywhere here, in the form of giant murals; in cardboard cutouts in students’ windows; in Jürgen’s Bierhaus, a sports bar in the city centre; flashing his floodlit smile in ads on the sides of buses; and, more generally, in what can only really be described as a vibe. It can be felt as a sense that Liverpool itself has finally, and comprehensively, come back from the cliff edge of INEXORABLE decline, just as football clubs can slog their way from the lower leagues back to the top flight.” While not perfect, the parallels between their city and ours are somewhat uncanny. Liverpool hit its economic peak in 1930. St. Louis, at least from the standpoint of the city’s population, hit ours in the 1950s. Our cultural peak might have been earlier with the 1904 World's Fair and Olympic Games. Part of the reason that articles like those from the Journal can make us feel insecure is a fear that this is how the country sees us – something that we feel is both misleading while perhaps also fearful of some of its truth. Lee Broughton, the club’s chief brand architect, and spouse Enterprise Mobility CEO, Chrissy Taylor, captures the power of story in his reflections: Lee Broughton: Yeah, I think for our region. One of the big proof points that we've been able to really try and be is a part of a narrative that defines what Saint Louis stands for. What it's like to live here. And it is. Some of that really came out of some insight work that preceded the actual development of the soccer team. And for us. I mean, you know, thinking a little bit about some of the things that Carolyn is alluding to. It has enabled us to get to a psychology that is very positive beyond just the city limits, but as a region about something that's what it means to be a part of a future here as opposed to just looking at a history. And so I think that for us soccer really is about the future. It's a sport that is young in America, even though Saint Louis has been playing it for 150 years. There hasn't been a professional you know team in that way.and I think that it's enabled us to start looking at things like culture in St. Louis. How do we define it? And to Carolyn's Point food, art, music. Those things have been folded into the stadium experience. and it's been able to create this platform. Oh, yeah, Saint Louis is really good at music, and it's got an incredibly over weighted artist population. The food scene is James Beard award winning, and it is all over the place. So I think it kind of creates this center of gravity that is about the people of St. Louis, and I think that that's the thing that we are really trying to use through the brand, but also through the stories of what it, what? What it's like to be here in St. Louis. Moving forward, it will be important for the club to build upon the power of this story. But so too it will remain imperative that they continue to work in partnership to address some of the challenges that Liverpool continues to face– critiques that the story is easier to change than actual economic realities. This is something that the urban sociologist and Liverpool fan Abi O’Connor sees in her club and city. For someone like Kloop to, QUOTE “say he has changed the city for the better is to ignore these material realities for many of the people who support his team.” But this is important work, and one worthy of a family enterprise committed to impact. One of my favorite books on urban planning is Alain Bertaud’s “Order without design.” Bertaud is the former principal urban planner at the World Bank and has been the resident urban planner in cities such as Bangkok, New York, and Port au Prince, amongst others. In his book, Bertaud explores the different theories of change for urban planners – who often lead with design -- and urban economists, who look for how people follow prices. Bertaud thinks there is a middle way. For him, a thriving city is built upon a well-functioning market. But it can’t just be this. The labor market has to be strong, infrastructure has to align with market tendencies, transportation has to be plentiful, and affordability in reach. This complicated interplay of factors isn’t too far from the complexity of watching 11 players on the soccer pitch working toward a uniting goal. For cities to thrive, these factors have to generate their own momentum and play in a complex coordination. In St. Louis, the question is whether, like Frank Borghi and Charlie Colombo on the 1950s national team, a soccer team, and real estate led from the owners box, might be the key catalyzing ingredient. That is a kind of beautiful game, I can get behind. Thanks as always for joining “The Owner’s Box” the show where we explore what it means to be strategic from the position of company ownership. In our next episode, we introduce famous shoe designer, Stuart Weitzman and discuss family ownership in fashion, and what he learned in talking investment and eventually selling to Coach. If you haven’t done so already, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts – Apple, Spotify, Overcast, or others. Many thanks to our creative producers Jennifer Wintzer and Austin Alred. For all they do to support this work. Until next time!