Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Is the Enneagram Demonic? | a Conversation with Enneagram Three Pastor Tyler Zach

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Is the Enneagram Demonic? | a Conversation with Enneagram Three Pastor Tyler Zach · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh the biblical authors made use of knowledge from occultist cultures.
0:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay, and that may sound a little weird, but let me explain.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: So our creation and flood stories are similar to well-known pagan myths.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: If you look at the Epic of Gilgamesh, there's similarities there.
0:16
SPEAKER_02: But they were re-narrated to point people to the true God and his stories.
0:22
SPEAKER_02: If you look at like the covenantal structure between God and the Israelites, uh, God basically used the governmental structure of this occultist pagan culture and reappropriated it.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: And we see that in Deuteronomy 1 through 3.
0:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh in the book of Proverbs, you see a whole paragraph that is almost word for word from a the Egyptian text called the Instruction of Animathy.
0:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and Psalm 29 is a basically uh a Baal worship song that is reappropriated for Yahweh.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: Um basically took a hymn right out of worship book and basically used it as a song for Yahweh.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of chatter these days.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Chatter about the Enneagram being demonic.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: I had to add a little flair to that word.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, in short, these allegations, they're not new.
1:11
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's the first time you've heard of them, or maybe you've heard about them before.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: And now you're second guessing.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: I like the Enneagram, and it doesn't seem evil, but are these people right?
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Especially people that I respect.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And so here's the deal years ago when I began my journey into the Enneagram, I didn't question the sources.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: I didn't question whether it was evil or what this tool or resource came from.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Because I was learning about it from people who loved data.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: So I trusted them and I trusted that this was just a really great tool.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Of course, once I became certified and started using the Enneagram in my coaching process, I began to get a little pushback from strangers on the internet, which I mostly shrugged my shoulders at.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: But I began to get a little pushback from people that I did respect and whose opinions I felt were worth listening to.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: So I began a deep dive.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: And for those who have been here a while, you know I ended up writing a book called Christians Use the Enneagram.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: You may even have had your hands on that resource, and maybe you've even gotten it for free from one of the summits that you've been a part of, or maybe you have Kindle Unlimited and you can get it for free on there.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: But regardless, it's a conversation I still continue to have.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: And I am so grateful to have many, many resources to point people to that aren't just my book.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm not the only one out there who are helping to guide a conversation that we all really hope will be fruitful.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: So today I'm having my friend Anne Enneagram 3 pastor Tyler Zach on the podcast.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: He and I recorded this conversation a while back, but it's incredibly timely, and the information and facts are still very current.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, we're going to be answering questions like is Enneagram demonic?
3:02
SPEAKER_00: What is the history of the Enneagram?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: As Christians, do we avoid using this tool?
3:07
SPEAKER_00: And is there a biblical foundation for using this resource?
3:11
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of information to share today, but ultimately, in case you haven't met Heather Zach before, he's a pastor, author, Enneagram coach, Taekwondo Black Belt, and former DJ.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep, a DJ.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: He lives in Omaha, Nebraska with his lovely wife Lindsay and their two adopted sons, along with a plethora of animals that keep their lives very busy.
3:36
SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we're going to talk all about should Christians use the Enneagram.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: And because he's done such a deep dive into this, I feel like he has a really great perspective and a voice to add to this conversation.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: He even has a plethora of resources that you can download for free, watch for free, share for free.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And I'll be sure to put all those links in the show notes so that way you can follow up with this conversation and learn more.
4:01
SPEAKER_00: I know that it's hard if you are just someone who enjoys the Enneagram and have benefited from it.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: And you're not a teacher, this isn't your livelihood, and you're wondering, man, when people question me about this, I feel personally attacked and yet.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: And friend, at the end of the day, you don't have to defend it.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Jesus is our perfect example, and he's the one who brings the healing, and he's the one who brings the freedom.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: And the Enneagram just helps shine a little bit of extra light on our problem.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: So we're going to be talking all about it, giving you plenty of thought for conversation in the days to follow.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: Before we jump into this conversation, though, be sure and check out Tyler Zach summit that's coming up in April.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be amazing.
4:45
SPEAKER_00: I've already prepared my special summit conversation for the gathering, and I am so excited about the speakers that he's brought together.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be amazing, and you're going to want to jump in on that fun there.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: So be sure and check that out as well.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get to this conversation.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wix, your whole hearted looking coach.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad that you stopped by to spend some time with me.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Are you curious about the Instagram?
5:20
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to learn the culture?
6:15
SPEAKER_00: I pray that the Lord speaks to you as you listen today and that you would invite your friends and family to join the fun conversation.
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Are you ready to laugh a little and learn a whole lot?
6:27
SPEAKER_00: Alrighty, let's get to the conversation.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: And so as a pastor, uh when I heard about the Enneagram, I wanted to do a deep dive because as a pastor especially, we're held to a higher standard.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: And I first heard the Enneagram through another church, and they have a high filter, high bar for doctrine.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: So I said, okay, if they are using it, then I should definitely check this out.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: And uh so I began reading.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh I literally searched gospel and enneagram on YouTube, and John Fouchet popped up.
7:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh, he runs a site and that does coaching and certifications.
7:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh, he was trained by Beth Accord, and uh, so I got training through him, loved this beautiful intersection of gospel and Enneagram, and uh, but still was on was hesitant, like, should I be doing this?
7:18
SPEAKER_02: And I know a lot of the listeners are thinking that too.
7:20
SPEAKER_02: Like, I love it, but should I be doing this?
7:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, some people are starting to push back now.
7:24
SPEAKER_02: What do I say?
7:25
SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
7:26
SPEAKER_02: And so I did a deep dive uh on studying the history and the origins of the Enneagram and sort of came out of that with uh with a 3,000-word essay on should Christians use the Enneagram.
7:38
SPEAKER_02: And I know that you uh have a book coming out, which is exciting.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: So this is this is fun to do this together.
7:45
SPEAKER_02: But coming out of that and and writing that essay, I thought to myself, yeah, I can be confident using the Enneagram and confident telling others to use the Enneagram as well.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so uh I want to share a little bit about what I learned, if that's okay, and what I learned to help people feel confident uh in using it.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: That is awesome.
8:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, before you do that, you got to let us know what Enneagram type do you lead as?
8:12
SPEAKER_00: And was it difficult to discover, or were you like, oh yeah, this is totally me?
8:18
SPEAKER_00: What was kind of your reaction?
8:19
SPEAKER_02: I'm an Enneagram three, uh type three, and have a four-wing, uh more introspective, uh more artistic, more creative, and a little more, yeah, just introverted.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of an introverted pastor, so I so I've always am I a real pastor?
8:37
SPEAKER_02: Do I like really sip the mold?
8:38
SPEAKER_02: Right.
8:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh but yeah, when I started reading the Nigram 3 material, I was, you know, one of those deer in the headlights.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, Richard Rohr says like the scales fell off, and he was it just totally transformed him.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: And I, when I was reading the three stuff, I'd never really put together uh the achievement sort of uh piece and also the image conscious piece and the insecurity underneath and uh that that losing like uh not being your true self but being who other people want you to be and being a chameleon and sort of shape shifting into being being and doing what other people want you to do.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh just when I started reading all about all that, it just struck a chord.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: I said, Yes, uh that that that was deeply convicting uh to me.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: Um so I call it a sniper sanctification.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: It can it can it can put the crosshairs on things that you've been, you know, you've been reading your Bible, doing your devotions, and it can put these crosshairs on things you've been suppressing or not even aware of.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: Um and as Cheryl Sandberg says, uh you cannot change what you're not aware of.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's so helpful to become aware of things you've never been aware of before, uh, so that you can change and you can ask, invite God into those parts of your heart that that one that He wants to renew and transform into the image of Jesus.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: And it's so important too, I think, with just the church culture, how sometimes there's a shame in our behavior patterns and those things that we do, whether consciously or unconsciously.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: We know what's true, but we're so busy usually covering up and keeping up the persona, no matter what Enneagram type we are, that we forget to receive the freedom that's there.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: And I think the Enneagram gets permission to talk about those strongholds, those hangups, those things that keep tripping us up in our walk, and then to to with less shame and greater just acknowledgement and awareness, then be able to identify and and bring in the truth and bring in the light of the gospel that can get you free from those things that have been keeping you stuck for so long.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: And also call it sniper encouragement.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: Like when you understand how you're made in the image of God and to uniquely reflect his image to the world, uh, when I understand what type people are, what type they lead with, I can instantly just encourage the heck out of them.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: And I that's what I've been doing with my books.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: And I just love, love, love being able to encourage people to help them to feel seen, understood, make them feel important.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh so yeah, you can use it conversely for not just for sniper sanctification, but to encourage and edify and empower people to use their gifts.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna talk about that as well.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: So hang on.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Not only are we gonna identify some key points about the origins and the history and all of that of the Enneagram, but we're gonna identify the care some of the character traits and qualities and how we are reflecting the Lord and how Christ in particular exemplified the different um personalities and the character traits of that.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna go through that at the end here.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, but first of all, all right, here's the thing.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: Is the Enneagram a Christian-based tool?
11:52
SPEAKER_00: Give us the skip.
11:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's something I don't defend.
11:58
SPEAKER_02: You know, some people feel like they need to defend that.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: Like it's this ancient Christian tool that's been around for centuries.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: And there are some things that overlap with some of the things that the fathers and mothers of the fourth century have said.
12:13
SPEAKER_02: You know, there's the seven deadly sins that get placed uh overlapped with the Enneagram, but it's hard to know for sure where it came from because there's not a lot of clear evidence.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: So I don't defend, I don't say, hey, it's a Christian tool, therefore we can use it, because I just don't think there's we have the evidence for that.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh the first mention of the Enneagram was by a Russian philosopher, and he attributed it to his teacher, which is the Greek American philosopher Jurgis.
12:39
SPEAKER_02: And then later on, Bolivian-born uh Oscar Ichazo expanded on the Enneagram and taught what he knew to Chilean-born psychiatrist Claudio Naranjo.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: And Naranjo uh was is really where we got a get a lot of our teaching and material from uh that we can trace, trace back to.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Now, Naranjo taught the Ennegram to spiritual leaders like Father Robert Oakes, who then brought the Enneagram to the Jesuit school theology.
13:05
SPEAKER_02: And it's been said that Franciscan Richard Rohr, who we know wrote the Christian, the Enneagram from the Christian perspective, that book a couple decades ago, he was told by his spiritual director that lay people can't handle the Enneagram.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: If it gets out, it's not going to be handled well.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so they were entreated not to not to pass it on.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: About after several years, uh Rohr was personally convicted by the Enneagram and wanted to break the silence.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: And so when Helen Palmer came out with her book, he said, okay, it's up.
13:36
SPEAKER_02: Now I can the lid is off.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: I can see whatever I want.
13:40
unknown: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: And so uh Don Riso uh was also taught the Enneagram as it spread through Catholic communities.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: And so in 1997, he co-founded the widely known uh Enneagram Institute, which a lot of people take in a test uh through that site and learned about the Enneagram from that site.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: And then you have Suzanne Sabil who comes along from she's a United Methodist.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh, she was a student of uh Richard Rohr, and she began teaching the Enneagram.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: As we know, in 2016 she teamed up with Ian Cron, who was a uh Episcopalian priest and psychologist, and they co-wrote the widely popular primer, The Road Back to You.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And then it just kind of launched into uh Protestant circles.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh and then that same year, Marilyn Vansel, which was the first Ennegram book that I read, it's from a distinctly Christian perspective, great book.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Uh she wrote Self-Delose, Self-Defind.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh and then that same year, Beth Accord came out and began learning or began teaching the Enneagram after studying it for 15 years.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: And her and Jeff, you know, who are part of this conference, uh, have just taught the Enneagram to thousand, uh thousand coaches in 20 different countries for a gospel lens.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing to see uh what they've done with it.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but as we go back, you know, to answering the question, is it a Christian tool?
14:55
SPEAKER_02: I would say no, it's it's not a Christian tool, but there have been a lot of amazing Christians, especially over the last five to six years, who have been putting it within a Christian world very Christian perspective.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think the um better question that we should be asking is who is teaching us the Enneagram?
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Because, like you said, there have been a lot of teachers who have formulated concepts and ideas and helped expand the information of the Enneagram that weren't necessarily doing it from a gospel lens perspective or gospel worldview.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we've had the opportunity, Beth and Jeff have really spearheaded that event and um helped others be able to not only learn it from the Christian perspective, but also help teach it.
15:41
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I'm so passionate about gathering people and individuals here during the summit who are excited to share it from that perspective and that lens.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: So um anyway, I know you are too.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: So the next question that we want to kind of tackle is again, kind of the rumors that are flying sometimes is should we use the Enneagram if it happens to have some tie-in to cult roots?
16:06
SPEAKER_00: You know, like what um should we just stay away from it or what does that mean for us as believers?
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:13
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's it's good to zoom in on Naranjo, uh, because Naranjo is the one that really spread the Enneagram to a lot of people that we know.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, we're only a few degrees away from from Naranjo.
16:27
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there's been some articles out there saying he's a crazy occultist and things like that.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, Naranjo was an intelligent, well-trained, well-studied psychologist who was a medical doctor, and then he moved into psychiatry.
16:42
SPEAKER_02: And so after leaving Chile, he came to America to dive into all things personality.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: So he went to Harvard.
16:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh later, he was a uh visiting scholar at Berkeley.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh he learned under many well-known philosophers such as Paul Tillich, uh, who a lot of people might recognize.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, but the problematic thing about Naranjo is that uh he never said this in any other interviews and no other teachings, but on a YouTube interview, he said that he had gotten the enneotypes uh through a practice called automatic writing.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: Um and so automatic writing is is essentially, I had to look it up because I didn't know what it meant.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: People who are into the new age and that sort of thing, it's the equivalent of how we would say that our our biblical authors wrote scripture as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit, right?
17:33
SPEAKER_02: They they they listened and then they wrote what flowed out.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of the the New Age version of that.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: It's automatic writing, it's kind of quieting, meditating, getting away, and just letting letting the pen flow.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh and this this could come like this could uh bring knowledge out of your from yourself, or it could bring knowledge, you know, gain knowledge through a supernatural source.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh the problem is he only said that off the cuff once, and we don't know what he meant by that.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we do know that that he was not just uh like a Joseph Smith who you know who started the Mormon faith where he just got all this information at once that he'd never received before and it just flowed out of him.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: No, like he is a trained psychologist, he studied at Ivy League schools, he he knew personality types, and he had received a lot of this information from Ichazo.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's um it's unfounded to say that he he got all of this information from some sort of um angelic being or supernatural source.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay, and Beatrice Chestnut, who wrote the complete Enneagram, she studied under him.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh she learned a lot about him, she learned the subtypes from him, and she said that in all of her time with him and learning under him, he never once talked about automatic writing, never talked about receiving it from any anyone else other than Achazo.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and I I've read a few of Naranjo's books, and they're not cultish, they're not weird, uh, they're they just read like psychology books.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh he was connecting the dots from what he had learned at Harvard and Berkeley.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: And and so we gotta step back and not have a quick reaction there.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: But let's just let's just say that there are cultist roots, uh, that the origins are uh shrouded in some not so good things.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: Should that fact alone uh be enough for Christians to stop using the Ennegram?
19:28
SPEAKER_02: And even if that were the case, I would say I don't think so.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: I think we can still use the Enneagram based on how the biblical authors, what the biblical authors did, and as we see leaders in church history doing.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: So I'll try to be brief, but I think this is really helpful for people to understand uh how our scriptures are formed, how people have acted in church history.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: So uh the biblical authors made use of knowledge from occultist cultures, okay, and that may sound a little weird, but so let me explain.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: So our creation and flood stories are similar to well-known pagan myths.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: If you look at the Epic of Gilgamesh, there's similarities there, uh, but they were renarrated to point people to the true God um and his stories.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: If you look at like the covenantal structure between God and the Israelites, uh, God basically used the governmental structure of this occultist pagan culture and reappropriated it.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: And we see that in Deuteronomy 1 through 3.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: Uh in the book of Proverbs, you see a whole paragraph that is almost word for word from uh the Egyptian text called the instruction of animothy.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Which I thought was so cool because I did not know that part.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yeah, that's rad because I love Proverbs and I didn't know that little tidbit.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: So really interesting.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and Psalm 29 is is a basically uh a Baal worship song that is reappropriated for Yahweh.
20:50
SPEAKER_02: Um basically took a hymn right out of worship book and basically used it as a song for Yahweh, put it within a in a Christian worldview.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Additionally, Psalm 104 is a creation psalm.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: It has a striking number of similarities to the great hymn, uh to the God Aten.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: And so that can be a little scary for people to hear that.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, but when I hear that, I'm I'm saying, no, God's people all throughout history were master contextualizers, taking things that would have resonated with um God's people and put it within a Christian worldview.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: And and the list just keeps going.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: Like if you look at the Apostle Paul, he studied up on the false gods that surrounded him and false idols.
21:31
SPEAKER_02: His came from very common specific sources.
21:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes, they came from very demonic or questionable sources.
21:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: And but Paul said, Hey, I'm gonna use all of these things as a way to point these Epicurean and Stoic philosophers to a known savior.
21:45
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: This is this let me proclaim this God to you.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: And so he he was fine with using pagan philosophies like Platonism and Stoicism to put the gospel in a language that people could understand.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: So here you're starting to see that that.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: It can be evangelistic to use the enneagram to use language, false self, true self, um, our shadow side.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: We use all that language to point people to Jesus, like like Paul did.
22:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:13
SPEAKER_02: And uh in in yeah, in church history, uh Augustine made use of the wisdom from the philosopher Plotinus, Thomas Aquinas used wisdom from Aristotle, St.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: Patrick didn't use the enneagram, but he used symbols like the Shamrock to explain the Trinity.
22:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: On Easter, he used bonfires because that's what they did.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: They honored the gods with fire.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: And so he used things that they were familiar with to point people to God.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: He even took a superimposed sun uh and put it on a Celtic Christian cross to make it so more natural to them.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: And so all that to say, as you can, as you look at the biblical authors, as you look at uh just amazing men and women in church history, like they weren't afraid to take what people were used to uh hearing and and and helping point people to uh to Jesus.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: No, it's so good.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: And I think, I think um not only are those elements true theologically, but I think theologically, you know, even Christ is telling us to go into the world and um to be in the world and to be, you know, like bringing in the light.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: And this is our an opportunity to bring the light of instruction to those who who maybe otherwise the church feels too scary, it feels too foreign, and I think this brings some common level ground by using the conversation that the Enneagram offers to us and that we can use to maybe answer some questions that they've that they've had in their lifetime.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And certainly it's a deep, a deep way to address it as well, which I love stuff.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Um that's fabulous.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: And I'm guessing that a few people here have their minds on and like that's the sort of thing.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: I love diving into that.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: So I I don't want to produce this as well, like you know, again, I I have people here who are really passionate still about the local church, and they're not interested in subverting a local church or uttering something that isn't going to be beneficial in the long run.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, so you you had mentioned that was kind of your first introduction as well.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: So do you see that the Enneagram could maybe usher a new age movement to the church?
24:33
SPEAKER_00: Like how how is that not happening, or how can um, you know, what's what's is there a wrestle there?
24:40
SPEAKER_00: Do we need to be concerned about it?
24:41
SPEAKER_00: What are your thoughts on that?
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: Well, depending on what kind of church you go to, it's helpful just to realize this.
24:47
SPEAKER_02: There's there's a spectrum of people who appreciate culture and people who kind of want to stay away from culture.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: So there's kind of a separatist kind of churches where you might be on the cutting edge of a church that's very integrated in culture and loves learning from culture, and some will go all the way and become too much like the culture.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: Right.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: So, how do we, you know, how do we use the Enneagram in a in a healthy way?
25:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think what's what's important for people to understand is the doctrine of common grace.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: If they don't understand this and your church uh doesn't appreciate or believe in common grace, it's gonna be a really hard environment to study the Enneagram and talk about the Enneagram in.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: Um but basically common grace is is God giving undeserved grace to all humankind.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: That is, it's bestowed on everyone, regardless of whether or not they believe in God.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: That's a big deal.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, we have special grace that's reserved for God's adopted sons and daughters.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: So grace that we receive because we're part of his family.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: That's special grace.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: But God is uh loves bestowing grace on everyone, even if they don't believe in him.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: And even Jesus said in Matthew 5.45 that God causes his son to rise on the evil and the good, sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: Right?
26:05
SPEAKER_02: And so God loves to bestow knowledge and grace uh on all people.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: And and so that's why we can trust things like science, you know.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: In science class, we can learn from general observation, we can learn from our doctors.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we having a son on the autism spectrum, we've leaned a lot and been helped a lot by the area of medicine and science.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we can learn from psychology and we can learn from all these spheres because God has been so benevolent, so generous in pouring out knowledge to all humankind.
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And so we should be open-handed.
26:42
SPEAKER_02: We should be listeners, uh, like the Apostle Paul.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: And uh uh my one of my favorite pastors, Tim Keller, uh said, without an understanding of common grace, uh, Christians will feel no need to study the world and other human cultures in order to get to know God.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: But the fact is, he says, we need to appreciate truth and wisdom wherever we find it, and that by studying different cultures, languages, artwork, and music expands not only our appreciation of the created world, but also the God who made it.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: I love that.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: And so some churches might be a little more closed-minded and some might be, yeah, like there's common grace, let's go learn.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I think we're we often make the mistake that it's there's only sacred and there's only secular, and it's two different worlds.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it's gonna dry like that because the the idea that, you know, even now, any music, any art, the the beauty that we see that are created, done by believers or not believers comes from our creator God.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Whether someone's gonna attribute it and give glory to God or not is a totally different thing.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: But um, I think I've seen so much that isn't necessarily created under the banner of sacred.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, that's really awesome.
28:01
SPEAKER_00: And great.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's a deep theological question that some people are gonna want to read more.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: So I know you have, you're gonna have available to those who are watching and listening today just a link to be able to access this article where you explain some of it further and people can kind of read it over and and um dive into that more because I don't think all of us think through some of those theological questions necessarily.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: And we've just been a part of the culture that we've been a part of without thinking through it.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's you can find the article at gospelforenigram.com, of gospelforenigram.com.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: And uh there's just a link, it's it's free, free PDF.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: What I love and why I think it's so great to have you on here is that you have done your research, and I have a couple of other speakers who've done their research as well.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: And coming together and bringing in our different perspectives to speak to this topic will help people sort out the answers that are right for them.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: Do you mind if I share one uh one more quote from that PDF?
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, please do.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: That'd be great.
29:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I think people appreciate this.
29:15
SPEAKER_02: I just posted this on social media and it kind of blew up.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: And so I know it really resonates with a lot of people.
29:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, but JK Rowlings, uh uh, she was recently asked in an interview what she thought about uh these parental fears, you know, from from parents who thought that it, you know, if their child reads the Harry Potter books, then they're gonna start practicing magic and get into the occult.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: And she replied to these reporters by saying, I have yet to meet a single child who's told me they want to be a Satanist or are particularly interested in the occult because of the book.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
29:50
SPEAKER_02: And I think that is so, so helpful because when it comes to the Ennegram, I don't know any pastors or friends who have become new age or gone off the deep end because of the Enneagram.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: But conversely, I can give you a list of many people who are experiencing personal transformation, marital improvement, uh, improved work relationships, you know, because of the Enneagram.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: Like my I used to think that all AIDS were arrogant, and uh I've repented of that because apes have such great power, you know, and so they can be misinterpreted as angry, pushy, but now I see them as these beautiful snow plows, you know, that are just pushing uh the snow and and and charting a path for all of us to get out of our garages and do the things that God's called us to do.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: And so I I love the energy that an eight has and the confidence and no longer see them as arrogant.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh I no longer see my wife is having a lack of faith.
30:49
SPEAKER_02: I know it sounds so bad to say she's a sixth.
30:52
SPEAKER_02: Poor sixes.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm writing the I'm writing the sixth book now, and I'm seeking to make it like be the most encouraging book that a six has ever read.
31:02
SPEAKER_02: Uh, because sixes oftentimes anyone, you know, when they talk about sixes, usually it's all negative.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: And uh it's just not helpful.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: They're not just a bunch of you know, scared deer with you know deer in the headlights looks all the time.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: They are courageous, yeah, and they're protectors, they're our guardians.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, me and my wife used to go house hunting.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I would be the knife previous and think, oh yeah, I can see a vision for this.
31:26
SPEAKER_02: And she would be like, Well, this is gonna go wrong, this is gonna go wrong.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then as we battled fertility, I was like, Oh, God loves us, it's just gonna happen, God's gonna do this, why would he hold out on us?
31:36
SPEAKER_02: And she was like, It's never gonna happen.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: And so it really affected our grieving, but we didn't know about the about the Enneagram back then.
31:43
SPEAKER_02: If I would have, I would have understand just her protective nature, her ability to not let me jump off a cliff.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, I would have understood that and appreciated her so much, so much better.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: And I wouldn't have said that she had a lack of faith.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, I would have said that she was a realist and she was pouring out her emotions like David did in the Psalms.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh that God gives us space to lament and and to get in touch with our feelings and to be honest with him.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: And so um, I'm just sharing a couple examples of how and this is I have stories and I have stories of other people, our staff team, other churches who have benefited from this, but I don't know anybody who has who has gone off a deep end and become a new age Satanist or occultist um because of that.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: And so if you're listening, don't uh have this knee-jerk reaction, all right?
32:36
SPEAKER_02: Don't have a this this knee-jerk reaction to uh to the anagram because you don't have to.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: There was there was a guy who uh who's a professor at Westminster who said that sometimes when we just cause fear and say, hey, don't don't do that, it's it's actually a symptom of intellectual laziness or insecure defensiveness.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: And and so ask yourself, you know, if you're if you're challenging Anegram, speaking out against Enneagram, you know, have you put in the work, the intellectual work of studying it rather than being lazy and just telling everybody not to use it?
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And are you insecure on the inside?
33:14
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be insecure and defensive uh and polarizing if you aren't grounded in your faith to be able to learn from other sources and culture.
33:24
SPEAKER_02: And so uh I think that was a really helpful uh just bit of advice from him not to have a knee-jerk reaction, but to actually listen and study uh before coming to this conclusion that it's only for occultists.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, that's so good, Tyler.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: And I I think we've given just a lot of great steps here and information for people to sort through and to think through.
33:47
SPEAKER_00: And I I I used this quote in the book um from C.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: S.
33:51
SPEAKER_00: Lewis, and it's um it's his book, Weight of Glory, which I just I don't know, kind of C.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: S.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: Lewis is all brought up, right?
34:00
SPEAKER_00: Um he said um good philosophy must exist in order to answer bad philosophy.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think it just kind of this is it.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: Like our goal here is to answer the bad philosophy out there, maybe something with a bad theology, and um just take this resource and be able to help others learn about it through this typical worldview.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: So I love what you're doing, about what your team is doing, I'll really do because you're an Instagram free.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: So you do all the things.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: You've got books, you've got the personals, you've got your Instagram.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Um so we're gonna tell people more about that.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: But before we do, I would love for you to share here about um how we can see uh demand sees us um exemplify or you know, put some kind of skin on what it looks like um to be each Enneagram type and what that means for us as we look at the scriptures and as we just find ourselves there.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so best of course and Marilyn Vanswell have done a great job of talking about what does it look like that were made in the image of God, because I've really benefited from them.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Uh recently I made a slide on my social media account saying Jesus in the Enneagram, and thinking about how Jesus is the perfect type and how we can what really resonates uh with each type.
35:22
SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm continually doing more and more thinking to expand this, but here's kind of the the simple breakdown is that one's gonna be encouraged that Jesus is our perfect example.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:33
SPEAKER_02: That he is diligent, conscientious, uh, he he does what he says he's gonna do, he's re he's faithful, responsible, and really that he fulfilled the law, that he had high standards.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: He didn't say I came to abolish the the law, but I came to fulfill the law.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: He has a perfect ethical role model, right?
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh for two, they would love that to know that Jesus is the caring shepherd that goes after the one and leaves the 99.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: That he is the one who uh wants to to gather the the church under his wing to care and protect them, that he is someone who came to serve.
36:12
SPEAKER_02: He didn't he didn't come to be served, but he came to serve.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: Three uh can can will love the fact that Jesus is a humble king, that Jesus gets things done as a king.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: He takes control, he delegates, he gets things done, but he is the most humble man to ever have lived.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: And to realize that Jesus' greatest success came through defeat.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: That Jesus' greatest success in redeeming the world came through the deceit or apparent failure of the cross.
36:46
SPEAKER_02: And so God can bring success out of failure.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh for fours, it's helpful to know that Jesus is the suffering servant.
36:55
SPEAKER_02: That Jesus was a qu was a man acquainted with sorrow, acquainted with grief.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: He was in touch with that suffering, uh gladly suffered for us, and now can sympathize with us when we feel like we don't belong and when we we are suffering, that he is our great high priest who sympathizes with us.
37:14
SPEAKER_02: For five, it's good to know that Jesus is a wise teacher, a wise teacher.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: He practiced solitude and got away from the busyness and the chaos of life and ministry, um, to get recharged by the Father, and they get recharged, uh, living in the power of the Holy Spirit, uh, who guided him, even when uh nobody else around him knew what was going on and where to go, and didn't have it all figured out, but they were being led by the Holy Spirit.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh for sixth is it's good to know that Jesus is our good authority.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: Finally, there's someone we can trust.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: After all these leaders like King David and Solomon, all these leaders failed and were not trustworthy.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Finally, Jesus came and he was the good authority, someone who we don't have to be suspicious of, but we can uh we can trust in him because he's the good authority and he was obedient unto death.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Like he was not, he did not deviate from the law, he did not deviate from the father's plan, but he perfectly submitted to the father's plan and was obedient all the way up until death.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh for sevens, for you, Amy, uh that Jesus was a friend of sinners.
38:27
SPEAKER_02: People look at him and he said, he's a he's just a narcissistic, you know, lover of alcohol, he was a drunkard and he's a glutton.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: And all the while he was doing it because he loved people and he was a friend of sinners.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: And uh and also he endured for the sake of joy, right?
38:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh, one of the helpful things for sevens is to know that is to see Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: He's like, Father, I don't want to do this, but not my will, but yours be done.
38:57
SPEAKER_02: And so he willingly didn't go around the cross, but he went, he took the path of the cross, the path of pain and suffering for the joy set before him, so that he could have the joy of being with us in heaven forever.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's great comfort to know that he has gone before us in our suffering.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: So no matter how hard it gets, yes, he's he's been there and he's there with us.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: And for type eight, uh, it's helpful to see Jesus as a powerful prophet.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Right?
39:28
SPEAKER_02: Jesus came challenging from the very beginning.
39:30
SPEAKER_02: Mark 115.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Hey, repent.
39:33
SPEAKER_02: Like turn around, people.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, told it like it is.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: He was a prophet, he spoke truth to power.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and right now he is reigning and ruling in heaven.
39:44
SPEAKER_02: Like he has the reins, uh, he is defeating our enemies even while we're sleeping at night.
39:50
SPEAKER_02: He is going to battle for us.
39:52
SPEAKER_02: And he emptied himself on the cross.
39:55
SPEAKER_02: He allowed himself to be put in the most vulnerable of places, uh, and allowed himself to be attacked by his enemies so that he could redeem us and ultimately win the battle.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and for nines, Jesus is a loving mediator.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: But everything went to chaos.
40:12
SPEAKER_02: There was division, there was strife, there was enity, but Jesus on the cross reconciles and unites all things so that we could be put back together again and live in unity.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: And here's the thing is that Jesus did all that not by peace faking, but by peace making.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
40:29
SPEAKER_02: Like he didn't come, he didn't come to say, oh, everything's good, let's keep calm and carry on.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: Like he fought for peace, which included suffering, which included getting an uncomfortable conflict with the Pharisees.
40:42
SPEAKER_02: Right?
40:42
SPEAKER_02: He he did what it took to not be a peace faker, but a peacemaker.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: So that's a really brief uh overview of the of how Jesus can be encouraging to the nine touchdowns.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: No, I love it.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: I did something similar around Easter time and had so much fun.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: I'd done some stuff like that before because, right, like as lovers of the word and Bible teachers at heart, we want to go, okay, where can we find this?
41:09
SPEAKER_00: Where can we see ourselves and or God's creation and people reflected in the Word of God and who Christ and God is?
41:17
SPEAKER_00: And so I just love it.
41:18
SPEAKER_00: I think it's kind of some language, an example that we can go, okay.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: That's my turn north right there.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of like you said with the four nine, to be the peacemaker and um not just the keeper, just I just loved every minute of this.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: I know that we could keep talking.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: And um I'm sure that will keep the conversation going on many levels.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: But I am so grateful that our friends have gotten to sit in on this and whether they've watched it or they're listening to it, do it as they're driving or doing some laundry.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I know a lot of them, if they're not already following you or familiar with the opportunities that they can have to work with you, they'll want to know.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: So would you share it here, tell us um a little bit about what you've got to offer and how they can just keep the conversation going.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, well, as a three, I just want to encourage people.
42:15
SPEAKER_02: And uh one of the ways I can do that is by writing uh a series of devotionals.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: So as I was starting this, I thought I might be the only one, but apparently everyone is thinking the same idea.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: So there's lots of different devotionals out there that I encourage you to read all of them because every coming from different authors, uh you're gonna get you're gonna get new and fresh stuff.
42:33
SPEAKER_02: So I'd just say buy all of them.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh but I'm currently I have three books that came out.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: So here's here's the first one.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: I started with my type, uh Gospel for Achievers.
42:43
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh that was my type.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then I did the the type nine next because I know nines love the Ennegram.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we do.
42:50
SPEAKER_00: We love our nines.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: And I just came out with the type four uh book uh this month.
42:57
SPEAKER_02: So and uh I'm not sure when they're listening, but the type six book will come out around Black Friday, November 2021.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay, coming up here.
43:06
SPEAKER_02: So my wife's a six, she said you could hey, no more of these other types, you gotta write a book for me.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna put in my note for the seven next.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: So early 2022, like I'm just saying.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: I've already said that the type seven is gonna be the first one to do an audio book for because sevens love audiobooks.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, if you don't want to do the audio, I'll read it for you just for fun because I would love to do that.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: Well, in a nutshell, these books um it's it's a it's a personalized book to help you feel seen by God and grow faster.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: There's like 48 and a half million books right now that you can buy on Amazon.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, but why sort through all the noise and the chaos when you can get a book that is like written just for you?
43:51
SPEAKER_02: So good.
43:52
SPEAKER_02: So that's what I love that just hearing from people saying, Man, I felt seen, I felt understood.
43:56
SPEAKER_02: And I love that.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: I love encouraging people and not just Talking about the shadow side, uh, which a lot of the secular Entigram authors do.
44:03
SPEAKER_02: They they go hard at the shadow side.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, hey, man, there's a lot of beauty here to talk about.
44:09
SPEAKER_02: And so just want to encourage people.
44:11
SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah, you can find me on gospel4inagram.com and uh on Instagram and uh Facebook, Twitter, you know, those places.
44:20
SPEAKER_02: All the good stuff.
44:21
SPEAKER_02: Love to keep people in touch and uh love creating good content along with you.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: And so um, yeah.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for giving of your time and energy today.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: I've loved every minute, and I know our friends have too.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: So thank you, and we're excited to keep on talking.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you, Amy.
44:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, your work working superpower is to take us and to new opportunities, you know.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
44:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so that's what you're doing through this this conference is you're you're on opening new doors uh for people to connect, network, get to know each other, get access to new resources.
44:56
SPEAKER_02: And so thank you for using your superpower and and putting on this conference.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm loving it.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like, you know, get my friends to meet my other friends, and it's all one big party.
45:05
SPEAKER_00: It's just so great.
45:07
SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, friend, if you had some lingering questions, I hope this has helped to bring some peace of mind and help you formulate answers when people are questioning should Christians use the Enneagram.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: This is a great resource to share with those who have questions.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, some people are just not going to use the Enneagram, and that's okay.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: This isn't our evangelism tool.
45:32
SPEAKER_00: It can be used as a tool to help lead people to Jesus because it gets our foot in the door.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: But we can take it or leave it, right?
45:40
SPEAKER_00: In heaven, it won't matter what type we are, or were, right?
45:45
SPEAKER_00: We are gonna continue some foundational conversations for Simply Wholehearted these next couple of months on the podcast.
45:53
SPEAKER_00: As we launch into celebrating six full years of the podcast, I thought it would be beneficial not only for me, but also for this community, to just talk about some of the foundations of what Simply Wholehearted believes, what it's all about, and what is actually offering and doing and building community and building the body of Christ.
46:12
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna dive into all sorts of topics.
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SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, this isn't gonna be a history lesson or self-glorifying, hey, this is what I've gotten to do.
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SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, I'm hoping to point out what God has done and also give really practical tools and takeaways for you, just like I give my coaching clients.
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like there's an opportunity here to share some invaluable tools and resources regarding conversations I'm having again and again.
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SPEAKER_00: And if we can't ever meet in person or over Zoom, I want to be able to provide tools and resources to help you walk out the wholehearted life that you truly desire.
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SPEAKER_00: So join me next week for a solo episode about how to flip your script and to live wholehearted.
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SPEAKER_00: It's going to be a good one.
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SPEAKER_00: I can't wait.
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SPEAKER_00: It's already in the queue, ready for you to listen to next week.
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SPEAKER_00: Also, there'll be a special bonus episode in light of the sixth anniversary.
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SPEAKER_00: The coaching collective is taking over the mic, and they're interviewing me in rapid fire question style.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll see how rapid fire we do it, but ultimately, I'm so excited to have my coaching collective on this podcast all at once, and we're gonna have a fun, lighthearted conversation where they get to ask me some questions.
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SPEAKER_00: Some will just be fun and silly, and others will be, well, you know, a little deeper.
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SPEAKER_00: We've got to have both around here.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we'll continue our Simply Wholehearted Foundation episode series.
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SPEAKER_00: So many good things in store for you.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm just so excited.
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SPEAKER_00: Now, remember, if you can, if you're not driving, take a second and leave a five-star review and a little mention of why this podcast has benefited you or how it has or what episode was your favorite.
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SPEAKER_00: It really helps me get some amazing guests here on the show, and it helps others find out why this podcast community might be for them.
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SPEAKER_00: So until next time, friend, continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plans for your simply wholehearted life.