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What If It’s Not “Bad Behavior”? Understanding Your Autistic Child with Dr. Amy See · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Inchstones podcast. You know, one idea I come back to over and over again, if not every episode, is the idea of the lens looking at our child through the lens of the whole child and taking multiple lenses and perspectives. And that is both as a mother and through conversations that we have here and how easily we can misunderstand a child when we're only looking at it through what we want to see, right? Behavior, a struggle at school, maybe a child who isn't engaging in a typical or normative way that we expect, and a child who understands so much more than they can demonstrate. So my guest today is Dr. Amy CCC, selected on Substack. And her work asks us to get really curious about what's underneath all of that. What does the child actually need? Gosh, we're going to say that a thousand times because what happens when we prioritize connection and regulation before correcting any behavior? So today we're going to talk about behavior development, learning system regulation, all these things that light me up as a mother and caregiver. And so, Amy, thank you so much for being here and very, very big
• 1:11
  Speaker B: welcome to Inchstones Thank you so much, Sarah. It's a privilege to be here. I was really excited when I got your message on Substack, so thank you so much.
• 1:19
  Speaker A: You're so very welcome. Why don't you give our listeners a little bit more about what you do and what you have been called to do as a practitioner?
• 1:27
  Speaker B: Yes, so just a little bit about my background. I have a PhD in developmental psychology and I did a lot of research in more like the adolescents point of view about personality and identity. And then I decided to work in schools where I'm now a learning support specialist where I do a lot of one to one work with students with special needs or learning needs, whether a diagnosis or not. And this will be like in the primary school ages from 4 to 12 years old. And I enjoy my work so much. It gives me so much joy to work with my students and give me so much energy and to really try to understand who they are as children because there's so much they actually teach me every day. We always think that we are the ones, you know, having to impart our skills towards them, but every child is different and I can learn so much from every child out there and it just brings joy every day when I get to work.
• 2:18
  Speaker A: You know, you have a beautiful premise that every child makes sense so we can understand what they need. Right. And I think every mother listening would be Shaking along with me right now. Can you explain that a little bit more? And how do we actually figure that out?
• 2:31
  Speaker B: Yes, I think that's something that I've also learned and figured out along my on the way that it's so important to first connect with first, I mean the child and also to understand from the parent's point of view. So to understand the child through the parent's eyes even before I meet the child, of course, just to get a bird's eye view but not get it tainted. You can take so much from there and then the next step will be just, you know, really just connecting the child. And what has really worked during my practice is just taking them out to nature. It really regulates their nervous system. You hear the birds chirping, whether they get to pick a twig from the ground and just do anything with really is.
• 3:11
  Speaker A: I mean it's one of my. It's one of my favorite activities to do and not just because it helps my own, you know, regulation as well. But I find that you're provided with so many opportunities to connect on what is there on a hike or in the woods or you know, near. Near a pond or something, you know, when they can't tell us and you get to go in and see whether it's a home environment or a school environment or in your individual private practice. I do think that, and I want you to elaborate on this, that it the best practitioners take from all those different angles, you know, tell us more about why you feel that that is.
• 3:45
  Speaker B: Yes, because as a child in the environment plays such a huge role right at home where it's a lot calmer. It's something that they are more familiar. They know where the things are, the parents know what keeps them calm to, you know, regulate. I'm sure that you know that yourself Sarah as well that it's very different as opposed to when they are outside or in school where in school it's, you know, you have bright lights, lots of noise, maybe overload and on the walls that's too much sensory overload for kid. They can react in a very different way as compared to where they are in a very calm and familiar setting. And I think it's so important that you really see both and compare to get a sense of what the child really needs to.
• 4:27
  Speaker A: I think something you're. You're hitting on which I believe is I just one of the most important parts of any practice but specifically with children with non speaking autism and whole body apraxia is every environment is going to elicit Possibly a different version of your child just like it does for us. Right. Like I am not the same person one on one with a dear friend. Like I am at like a group dinner where I only know maybe half the people right Environment and the those around you change things. So talk to me about children like Milly and Mac who their availability for what they can do does change in environments. Is that. Would you say. Would you say that that's true and what they can and participate in what
• 5:08
  Speaker B: they can and what they can show that they are actually truly capable of. It's. It's. They really show themselves best when they are in a calm environment with another calm adult that does not really entertained. And that's when you see the real the happy child. And that is really what I like to see from like really see them in the environment and also to see what they really like their interests. You see a very different person be it. I've actually read some of your posts Serif like for. With regards to your child for example your girl where she loves singing. I'm sure that that has really brought out yeah different side of joy to the kid and I've worked with the same. When you start asking them to do dance they become a totally different person and you see the joy that sparks out of them. It's something that gives you so much joy and tells you so much about the child that they are so capable of doing that there's so many facets to this child and it's not just about you know, being able to do this math or being able to speak but it's so much more to a child that they can do. And it's important to know that also the child is still developing at this age. I think as adults we sometimes just want to rush and to get them there to okay this step. They need to be at this age developmentally they need to be there. If not that's something that needs to change. But certain children just maybe just need a little bit longer and we just really need to meet them developmentally at what age they are and not look so much at the chronological age.
• 6:45
  Speaker A: I think too, you know, even in a micro moment way I have find myself having to remind myself that even their delayed response in a. In a moment like in an hour of me talking to them prepping for transitions, that even acknowledgement of the transitionary verbal, you know, commands or steps that we're gonna take that even their acknowledgement of that if they look up, if they turn their head, if they're. They start to Move towards the next activity of what I'm trying to prep them for. Sometimes even that is on a delay. And that that doesn't mean that they're not in taking it. It's just that, you know, when we're at home, things do go a lot more quicker than they are in a brand new environment like we were in yesterday. And I think a lot of what I'm hearing you say is that environment is going to change. Even the pace or the delay of their response, even if they want, even with their ability, their desire to respond, it's still gonna. Might be on a delay.
• 7:47
  Speaker B: Yes, that's right. And I think it's huge that they are even able to respond. And I think we need to celebrate because sometimes, you know, we need to remember the child's prefrontal cortex is not as developed as an adult.
• 7:59
  Speaker A: Right.
• 8:00
  Speaker B: And they are still continuously developing the neurons that's still connecting. So we really just need to give them time and like you said, an hour later and they still responded to the transition. And I think that's huge for a child to be able to do that. And we should celebrate those wins.
• 8:18
  Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, that's the. Obviously, you know, the foundation of my work is that when we do celebrate those building blocks, when we do even recognize how different the blocks are being built in different environments, it does allow for you to have a much more deep satisfaction in whatever that growth looks like for your child and not see it as a. As a gap in intelligence or a gap in success. The success actually is baked into acknowledging that the process is going to look different and that shared connection. I know that you believe deeply that all behavior is communication, you know, as well, and that we so often just need to like stop interrogating about what does that mean? What does all behavior as communication mean? You know, communication of what? I think that just means seeing, listening and looking and accepting and integrating everything that's underneath what is the figure and what's the ground underneath that. Right. Could you explain to the listeners maybe more about that? Because I know that your work dives into that as well.
• 9:20
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think you are so right about, you know, just taking time to just pause and think and just reflect. And then I think we can see so much if we are just observing the child. Right there. I like to call a framework. I just call it like the csr. So like capacity, safety and regulation. Right. So I love that. Really, like, yeah, I would like to see what's the child's current energy. Right. And at the level that he or she is at. Right now at this current moment. And then safety. Do they feel threatened or did they feel really calm and secure in the current environment they are in and regulation. Right. Is their system overloaded at the moment or is it in balance? And if we just continuously have these three key indicators, I think in mind, that's. That is so important.
• 10:07
  Speaker A: Yeah. That serves the understanding of why all behavior is communication. Right. Because instead of saying, well, why they. They did that yesterday, but they did it differently there today, or why can't this be the same in every place? Those three points are un. Are absolutely, you know, the.
• 10:28
  Speaker B: The.
• 10:28
  Speaker A: The cause of the behavior. And it takes multiple. It is multiple different inputs to why their behavior is what it is, whether that's positive or negative. Right?
• 10:37
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 10:39
  Speaker A: You know, Amy, you. You write about something, you know, seemingly small as a child, maybe, you know, reversing a number and how quickly adults, you know, we do these things where we just interpret it and like, go into a warning sign, you know, and this is a pathological, you know, you know, symptom or point. Help. Help other parents like myself, you know, to understand, to just observe development without turning everything into. This is from the diagnosis or this means that this is the part of the disorder that is fragmented off. Like, help us understand that more so that we don't jump to. You know, what I love is that caricature of like, anxiety, girl. The worst conclusion. I'm gonna jump to the worst conclusion here.
• 11:23
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think as a parent myself, I can. I. I can totally, totally relate. But I think it's. At first, it's. I think for me, I'd like to just go back a little bit. Just starts with, you know, the parent understanding their own temperament. Are you someone that, you know, tends to be a little bit more anxious, then you might also be more likely to notice something that your child does and start comparing it to other students to see, okay, are they same. And if you have more of that anxious temperament, you're more likely want to go straight to Google and, you know, and just take the first information that you see and then just think more about it in your head. And as we all know that what you Google the first thing or online does not necessarily give you the full picture. And what actually matters is something. If it's something generally more pathological, it's really about the frequency and the severity. Right. Does it happen enough?
• 12:14
  Speaker A: Say that. Say that again. It has to be. And I always say to parents, you know, listen, I have a whiteboard over here that I keep data Right. That I think if I don't write this down to remember what the pattern is. And I have a friend who I. A fellow autism dad who says he's got four whiteboards around his office, like keeping notes, because it's true. We have to be able to be honest about the frequency of things, to not jump to the worst possible conclusion or some sort of pathological reasoning for something. I'm really glad that you mentioned that.
• 12:41
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it actually needs to be significant enough to impact the child's everyday life as well. Right. Like if it's something that happens maybe today and you don't see it tomorrow. Yeah. A single instance, like you mentioned, it never meets that bar. So my advice to parents, if you want to know more about pathology, it might be worth, you know, looking and taking some courses to educate yourself so that if you know that you're more an anxious type of a parent in terms of temperament, to just calm yourself to know it's okay. Or if it's. If you do not have the time to seek advice from a professional who can really, you know, help you tease a. But so that it. You do not let your mind just ruminate and think about things. I think the idea is to make sure that the parent is calm. And that's the most important. I think, you know it yourself based on your experience that if the parent is calm, everything else, their children will also feel just as calm.
• 13:34
  Speaker A: It's so primal. You know, I always say that the better I am regulated and have had my ability to regulate myself any given day, the better my children are going to be. And that's not just for my children with profound autism. That's with my typical, you know, 13 year old as well. I think this generation of parents and I fall into this, you know, I had a typical child first, so becoming a special needs parent was, you know, secondary and tertiary for me. But I think that. I know that. Not even think I know that this generation of like millennial parents, we've been. We try to like completely optimize every experience and every event and every week and every, every, every moment. We think, well, we have to be so focused on the cult, like on the curation of this to be a learning environment or substantial in terms of their growth or at least provide some sort of input that's going to have a market sense on what their we're growing towards or developing, whether that's typical or atypical. And I know that in doing that we've sort of removed this, this innate natural thing of just Independent play. Right. And I, I struggle with that deeply with my own Milly and Mac, my two with profound autism, because I feel sometimes that we are so behind or we are so, you know, atypical that I can't ever really take a moment off or allow them just to quite literally roam in the backyard with the music playing. Right. And just literally let them do that while I sip on some lemonade. And that's a, that's a friction point, I think, for a lot of parents in my situation. You know, Talk to us about, you know, why removing some of those deep rooted expectations might actually be helpful for the family.
• 15:18
  Speaker B: Yeah. I think at the end of the day, I mean, like, like I, if I go back to what I said earlier, that a child is still developing, the brain needs time to rest, consolidate the ideas that have. And then if, if they're allowed to just be on their own to let their mind wander, it really gives an opportunity to consolidate the ideas and come up with really creative ideas that, you know, that will really also fit well into their learning. I mean, play is also a form of regulation. It allows you to really think deep in your thoughts at times, if you're playing alone or if you are sparring with another child, you engage in such deep thoughts that it's something that a textbook can never give to you. It's, it's just so, it's just so rich because it's never the same thing. The conversations that you have with.
• 16:11
  Speaker A: It's so true. I love the, I love using the word rich for that because it's very true. That's a. There I, I like to say that connection is such a life luxury. I write that a lot. It is such a luxury. And I think that to your word, like, there's a richness in all different kinds of connections and to, and to allow that to be different and big and full of multiple different reasons why.
• 16:34
  Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And I think that's also the beauty of play.
• 16:39
  Speaker A: Very, very much so. And I think that we should never give it up, even as adults. It's one of those things they, you know, I read a lot, you know, reminding myself what did I love as a child. Right. And allowing yourself as a parent to do that too. What would you ask them to stop asking and hope that they ask instead?
• 16:54
  Speaker B: I think one thing that is constantly asked is why do you behave the way that you do? Why can't you maybe stop yourself? I mean, I work with a lot of ADHD students and one thing I see a lot of educators asking the children why can't you stop and just focus and do your work? I think another way that we could really phrase is think about is because they are currently not at capacity to be. Whether be the environment, they are just not there yet. Because I don't think it happens a lot that someone asks what lights you up, what makes you happy? And once you see them soothing down the, you can see that they are ready to open to you and you can tap in and know the kids so much better that we.
• 17:43
  Speaker A: And even with the children that are non verbal or non speaking, I, I, I find that you can watch what makes them happy. You know, I, my, my son is really into a lot of those tactile like pin art like you know, fidgets or whatever and simply joining him and doing the exact same motion with it or if he's trying to juggle two in one hand and how excited that feels on, on his body. I think we can take so much if we just pause and ask if they're able to answer or take in what we know brings them such joy and then to join them in doing that. Yes.
• 18:20
  Speaker B: And that's such a beautiful activity. And like you said, it's connection.
• 18:23
  Speaker A: It's connection. It's such a foundational part of my work, you know. Amy, thank you so much. This is such a great conversation. So many good nuggets that come from this. I think what you're sharing is just honestly so beautifully simple. But it's also incredibly difficult to practice because it forces us to be so present. And I think before we decide really what a child is doing or why they're doing that we have to remain curious about who they are and who they are in that exact moment. And sometimes what looks like refusal to do something is actually just something that's really difficult for them. And what might be inattention is just that they're overwhelmed. And I think that's really what the heart of Inchstones does. And progress doesn't always look the way that we are taught to recognize it.
• 19:05
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 19:06
  Speaker A: If you could share one Inchstones of your own practice and success, I'd love to leave everyone here today with a message from you directly to the mothers and caregivers here that listen to Inchstones,
• 19:18
  Speaker B: I would like to say that I think we just make this be a year that we slow down to notice our children, your children, a little bit more, their behaviors and you can discover so many magical moments that you can hold on to and not make development such a stressful thing that they have to accomplish at a certain age, I think slow down, they will get there at their own time.
• 19:45
  Speaker A: I love that it's a good reminder and I can never have that enough. It should be written on every wall in my home, and I'm sure many homes of others as well. Amy, thank you so much for helping me slow down today enough to get that reminder for myself and realizing that sometimes the most important thing that we really can do for our children is to stop making them fit our expectations and get better at seeing the child that is actually in front of us. So thank you, Dr. C, for being here today on Inchstones Thank you so much, Sarah.
• 20:15
  Speaker B: It was a privilege.
• 20:17
  Speaker A: Wonderful. Until next time, everyone here on the Inchstones podcast.