Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: Did a ghost help solve a murder?

Transcript

Killer Thriller Docu: Did a ghost help solve a murder? · Legally Brunette

• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hi, guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. A
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: woman is murdered and her body is found wrapped in
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: chains and dumped in the Mississippi River. And nearly 30
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: years later, a ghost may help lead investigators back to
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: her killer. Today, I'm talking to Philip Kearney, who is
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the writer and director of HBO's The Pet Cemetery Murders
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a Ghost Story. So if you guys like ghost stories,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: you're going to love it. If you like true crime,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: you're going to love it. There is so much here.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: to talk about. And I will tell you that things
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: that I did not believe at the beginning of the documentary,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: I sort of do believe now. So it is about
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: the murder of Dorothy Thompson and this incredibly strange investigation
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: that followed. And the deeper that Philip Kearney got into
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: the case, the more disturbing and the weirder it became. Okay, guys,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: so let's get into it.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Hi, how are you?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Hi, how are you? Nice to see you.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Lovely to see you. How are you keeping?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Lovely to see you. I'm doing pretty well, thank you.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: I actually very happily got through your brilliant documentary, which
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: is great because it's been creeping me out.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: I'm really pleased you watched it because it's always, it's
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: just lovely when people have got to kind of send
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: to the full series, you know, because it's a bit
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: of a ride.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, I mean... Yeah, I definitely didn't expect what happened.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And specifically, I guess, in the third episode. But I'm
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: sure most podcasters, they sent me the screeners. And it
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: was so good.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's so lovely to hear that because you work
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: so hard. And then we started doing the press last week.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: And the first guy was like, so what does everybody
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: think of it? It's great. And I was like, well,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: you're the first person I've spoken to. Wow.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: No, you're going to, I know the response is going
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: to be amazing. And also because I do crime documentaries,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: so many of them are, this one was, was definitely
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: unsettling and sad, of course, for Dorothy, but you brought
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: in all of that New Orleans ghost story creepiness that is,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I have to say, it was very entertaining.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the thing about... Yeah, what's amazing about it, actually,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: is this idea that we just kind of... Because a
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: lot of people have said to me, you know, but
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: how did you balance the kind of human story with
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: the ghost story? And I'm just going to say, well,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: all we kind of did was say, we're just going
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: to tell the story as we're discovering it.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: And that's how we'll... reveal it. We'll find the best
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: way of doing it dramatically. And actually, this is what
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: people say. This is what they believe. So it's not
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: that you're trying to manufacture this sort of creepy New
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Orleans sort of haunted house.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: No, I know. It was very clear that they believed it.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to save this question for the end. I
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: want to know what you believe. And I'll tell you
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: what I believe. But we'll wait. We'll wait. So this documentary...
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: There are so many elements of it that I just
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: absolutely loved. And because this is what we do here
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: at Killer Thriller, we do a lot of true crime.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: And it can be, you know, modern day true crime,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: not just scary, but boring and desperate and tragic. And
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: not that this wasn't, but the whole ghost story piece
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: of this was so, I don't know if this is okay,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: but it was just so much fun to watch. And
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: it really was. It was just different from any of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: the docs that we usually cover here.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: really drew me to this case and to this particular
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: story was the idea that it was so multilayered, that
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: you've got this, at the heart of it, this really
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: tragic story about Dorothy Thompson, who owns the Pet Cemetery
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: in Toker, which is just outside New Orleans. in Louisiana
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: and she's found murdered in 1985. And then this case
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: kind of unfolds across kind of 40 years. But actually
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: that what you then have is the case being reopened
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: by the chief of police, a cold case cop called
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: John Duran in 2009, when someone comes forward saying, I
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: know who did it. I can't stand it anymore. I've
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: been haunted by Dorothy's ghost. So these are the facts.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: These are the facts of the case. These are the facts. Yeah.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: This is what John Duran. Yeah. So John Duran is
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: this kind of incredible guy. And he was great with us,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: you know, making it as well. He kind of opened
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: his doors to access everything there. But his kind of
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: story is the sort of main thread there. of this
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: three-part docuseries, his encounter with a world that becomes increasingly unknowable,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: increasingly not governed by facts, and that seems increasingly at
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: odds with the police training that he's got. This is
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: a guy who's now deputy chief. So he's a really
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: experienced seasoned cop, and he's forced to reconcile the world
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: of the pet cemetery and the world of the people
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: who inhabit this and the kind of violent, traumatic history
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of the place and the people who've lived there with
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: this kind of police training that kind of says, if
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: you follow the facts, you'll get to the truth.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: But the problem with this is the truth leads you
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: to a very, very unsettling place.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Yes, it certainly does. That's one of the things I
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: love most about it, though, is I really had the
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: way that it kept unfolding. And by episode three, it
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: was just a completely different story for me than it
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: was in episode one, right? And a story unlike any other.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And also just discovering even the history of the Pet Sematary, right? Like,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: even finding out that there was a massacre there. That was,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: you know, that came before any of this. There were
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: maybe there are ghosts.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: like a haunted cemetery, some would say, because of the
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: awful things that happened on that land, right? And we're
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: going into it knowing that there was a murder there, right?
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: And knowing that Dorothy was murdered, but then to uncover
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: all this other past trauma, I don't know, I don't
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: think I'd want to step on that cemetery. I don't
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: think I'd want to have lunch there.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: One of the things about it is, and this is
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: something that's really interesting and really important to the series
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: actually is this idea of like can a place hold
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: the trauma and the violent events that have happened there
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: and I think one of the things that we were
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: really keen for and I know that HBO were always
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: it was one of the first things we discussed was
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: this idea that this one little piece of land has
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: got so many of America's original sins there You've got colonization,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: you've got enslavement, you've even got the opioid crisis. You've
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: got all of this addiction, women's place in society, and
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: a male-dominated world. So you've got all these subtle threads
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: that just as this story unfolds, you're learning that this...
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: And you're forced to question, do people hold the trauma?
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: or does the land hold the trauma?
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: Land hold the trauma.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: You know, and I think we never, ever want to
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: absolve anyone of personal responsibility or agency, but it was
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: just something that we increasingly kind of said, why do
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: so many awful, violent, bloody things happen in this one
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: little piece of the earth? And that's something that by
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: the end of episode three, I think the story has
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: gone on such a kind of trajectory from this one
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: woman's horrific demise to something that's on a far wider
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: kind of canvas, broader canvas, but also that just kind
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: of flips every idea about what a true crime show
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: should be as well.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: In the sense that?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: In the sense that, you know, normally with these stories,
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: unfortunately you have male perpetrators, female victims who have no agency,
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: have no kind of like place in the world. And
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: then you have male perpetrators cops who come in and
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: clean up the mess and put the male perpetrator. Whereas here,
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: what you've got is a very different story with the woman.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: The woman who's a victim also has a kind of
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: complicated backstory and a violent history. And then her mother, Grace,
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: who's founded the Pet Sematary, is this extraordinary kind of
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: force of nature with kind of a very, very, very
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: violent backstory as well. So nobody is who they seem here.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: That's what, right. And that's what, that's what, kept me
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: so engaged. All of a sudden we were talking about ghosts.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: And then we were talking about, uh, that we were,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: we were talking about, um, the mob. And then, you know,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: we were talking about women murdering their husbands. And then
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: we were talking about, it was so much going on
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: and the slaughter that happened first at the cemetery. And it,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Just the twists and the turns were crazy. Did you,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: going into it, you didn't know that it was going
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: to turn out this way, right? You were filming it.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: No idea.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Well, we, there, there, there's, there are a couple of
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: key contributors who without giving too much away, you know,
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: there's someone who also was haunted by Dorothy. So there's,
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: there's several kind of hauntings in this. And there's also
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: a kind of, really kind of extraordinary kind of sort
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: of narrative that we just kind of discovered as we
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: were researching it. I mean, by the time you go filming,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: you know the story you want to tell and that
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: changes when you're editing it all together. But I kind
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: of knew that at the heart of this was Dorothy
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: and her mother, Grace. And that's the story that I
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: first kind of thought, okay, let's... And I knew there
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: was a backstory about enslavement in the area and there
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: was a duel to the death and other... And then
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: there was all the local lore and myth that's swirling
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: around this place. But then you're kind of like, how
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: do I tell this? How do I unpack this kind
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: of wild story while still keeping the victim front and center,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: but also telling a story that's compelling and that reveals
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: itself like an onion? layer by layer, peeling it back.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: And also, it's almost like you're digging into the land
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: and you're bringing up the bodies. I mean, that's kind
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: of what is sort of extraordinary about it.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: And Dorothy's daughter, I can't remember her name.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Christine.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: Christine, excuse me, that her part in this was so integral.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: First of all, she seems like such a grounded, or
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: can I use eloquent woman who... was talking about these
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: atrocities that were committed to her mom by her grandmother.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Going in, did she know all of this?
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she knew all of this. And she's just an
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: incredible woman, actually.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she really seems it.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the things, you've got a
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: real duty of care to all of these people because
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: these are, you know, it's easy with a story that's
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: as kind of extraordinary and as kind of compelling as this.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Kind of forget that these are real people who live
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: in real lives. this is real damage and I think
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Christine is kind of testament to the fact that this
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: intergenerational trauma that she inherited kind of stopped with her
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: and that was her kind of main and she says
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: it in the series you know this idea that you
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: can't keep on hating and hurting you've got to break
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: the cycle it's got to end with you you can't
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: then pass that on to your family and that was
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: one of the things that she was so amazingly eloquent
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: as you say about this idea that her mother was
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: a complicated woman who lived a really difficult life and
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: really horrible circumstances and who was a victim in many
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: ways not just a victim of murder but also a
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: victim of at the hands of violent men. And I
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: think something that the more I kind of spoke to
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: her and the more I kind of thought about the story,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: the more I kind of realized that you've got to
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: have some, and she says herself at the end of
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: episode three, you've got to have sympathy for this woman.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: This is a woman who lived a life that many
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: of us just couldn't imagine. No.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I also really thought it was so interesting that
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: she had such a good relationship with her grandmother and
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: that the way that she described that her life was
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: sort of wonderful when she and her siblings, I believe plural,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: went to go live with their grandmother until Dorothy got
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: out of jail and went to go live with them, right?
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: And that's when things really got terrible. But here we
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: are looking at Grace, a very complicated human being, certainly
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: capable of violence. And I'm wondering, what was it like
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: living with her? You know, was it that much easier
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: than living with Dorothy?
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing to be clear about was
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: that when Christine's living with her grandparents, she's living with
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: her father's parents.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, her paternal parents. Oh, so she wasn't living with Grace.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: She wasn't living with Grace. So what happens is that Dorothy,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: without giving too much away, as you say, spends time
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: in jail. And when she gets out, she comes to
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: see Dorothy and her husband's parents. And then she goes
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: to live with Grace. So I think that's a kind of,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: it's clear when you're watching it in the series, but
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: when you think back, you might back away from Grace.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes. Well, it's also the way that she said
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that she knew that her daughter would have a much
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: better life. And that was why she actually left and
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: went to go live with her mother, right? It doesn't
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: sound like she put up much of a fight. And
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: in that sense, I mean, she's, you know, obviously Christine
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: said there was a ton of drugs and it was
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: just terrible when she was there. But also, yes, that
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: part of it, watching this woman, you know, view the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: past and her mother who was abused and abusive with
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: such grace.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's the word I use, grace, because I
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: think she, has this kind of very grounded, centered attitude
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: towards her family history. Because I think you can either
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: be destroyed by a history like that and by kind
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: of events that you've experienced, or you can kind of
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: move through that, walk through it. And I think that's
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: something that she's kind of consciously and actively done over
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: the course of her life. And I think that, and
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: also I think the thing that she's very aware of
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: is that is that the life, the world that Dorothy
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: lived in, this kind of San Francisco in the 40s
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: and then New Orleans in the 50s, it's a very
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: different world for women than the world that we have, thankfully, now.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And I think that it's always important to sort of
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: see these people as part of social forces. And I
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: think that's the thing that I know, you know, Christine
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: always feels, but I really feel that as well, that...
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: It's easy to kind of criticize and critique based on
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: a 21st century view of how things are, whereas I
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: think it was very different for all of these people then. Yeah.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Even Katrina of it all, right? And that was just,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: to me, it was just so crazy that in the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: midst of all of this fighting and all of this,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: you know, complete... despair and violence. And then Katrina comes
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and wipes it all out. But there was still no
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: flattening the story. I'm not saying that as eloquently as you, obviously.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: But do you know what I'm saying? Like the fact
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: that Katrina came to wipe it out, the story should
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: have been over. It should have been a cold case
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: and been buried with everything else that was buried with Katrina, right?
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: And you just couldn't bury it. Yeah.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing, the past won't stay buried. You know,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: that's the thing about the past.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: As long as there are people who remember or not
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: have knowledge of what happened, then things have a tendency
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: to kind of bubble up to the surface. Yeah. I
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: think one of the things that Katrina, I mean, Katrina,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought Katrina up because for me, making
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: the series, it's the most profound, the most profound thing
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: that I'll carry with me after this, apart from the
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: story itself is, is Katrina, because I think everyone we
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: spoke to was affected by it in some way, shape
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: or form, and they were all scarred by it and
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: they all were traumatised by it in some way. And actually,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: you realise how Katrina was indiscriminate initially, at least physically,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: in the way that it wreaked havoc across that area.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: And really, for me, it was so powerful to hear
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: how they were all impacted upon and continue to be
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: impacted upon by that event. And then, as you say,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Katrina and the story, you would think that's the end
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: of everything. You know, that's it. Everything's gone.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Yes. And so did the police. You know, they said, well,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: you know, that's that.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: But no. And that's kind of one of the most,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: one of my favorite moments, actually, is, you know, because
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I think the Katrina sequence is so powerful. And you
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: really get a sense of the violence of that and
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: the impact it had. But then also coming out of that,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: you then learn how that affects the case through Duran,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: the cop. And then off the back of that, what then, like, reignites.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: She just could not stay chained. I mean, seriously. And
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I wanted to wait until the end, but it just
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: is so compelling because I am not someone who necessarily
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: believes in ghosts. My husband does. And... So he's always
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: a little creeped out any place that he hears there
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: have been ghosts. I'm always sort of the mindset, well,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: even if there are ghosts, they don't bother anyone. What
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: are they doing? Maybe I picture, well, here in America,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: we call it Casper the friendly ghost. But I've never
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: really been afraid of or creeped out. And then when
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I watched both of these men say that they were
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: visited by a ghost and they were both so scared
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: and afraid of going to hell, And it was a
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: revelation for me. I honestly, and I mean this, like,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, it just didn't make no sense. Right. It's like,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: there's nothing left. There's nothing even, after Katrina. And I
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: can't believe these people, two men had the same story.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: She came to visit them and in chains and the
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: door swung open. I can just, how did that affect
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you when you first heard of it?
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I really came into it kind of
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: like a bit like you. I kind of had this
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: sort of like slightly skeptical, you know, you know, it's
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: just kind of coincidence and it's the pack. In this case,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: I thought it's the kind of guilt of what they know.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: I had that. Yes, that definitely occurred to me that
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: they both really, it was, they'd gone crazy and as
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: a result, they thought that, you know, that she was
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: coming for them.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: But I think that there's something, I mean, without giving
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: anything away, these two men hadn't spoken for 30 years.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: So it's not like they were friends and they were
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: sharing stories. Neither of them knew that the other had
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: had the experience that they'd had. So it really, for me,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: was kind of, it just forced me to kind of think,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: at what point does the pile up of coincidences tip
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: over into forcing you to change your opinion on this?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: And that's something that everybody's got a different kind of
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: threshold for it.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Depending on who's, I mean, speak to some people and
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: they're just like, no. It's just, they knew what happened
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: and that's what they can live with. And then you
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: speak to other people and they're like, they go in
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: kind of agnostic and they come out a believer, you know.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: And that's one of the great questions of the series
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: actually is, you know, do ghosts exist? You know, is
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: that possible? Is that a thing?
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Did you feel it when you were on the cemetery,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: when you were there? Did you feel anything creepy?
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: If I'm being honest, the first time I went, yes,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: I definitely did.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Tell me about that. What did you feel like?
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: So we went to scout locations to look at the
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: cemetery and to see what we might film and to
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: talk to the locals and just to say, hey, we're
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: making this thing. And I was with the director of photography,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the DOP, and we went on the land and we
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: found that just the camera wasn't really working. Whenever we
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: put it on the ground, it would like flick between
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: video and still. And it just felt very sort of,
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: it was just an odd, it was just an odd
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: feeling there. And that's something that, I mean, if you
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: speak to all the locals, they've all got a story
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: about the pet cemetery. So I'm not saying anything in
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: any way out of turn here. Do they really?
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: They all have their own?
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they all have a story about it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Sounds like all the kids were afraid of it, right?
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Parents don't go there.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: But then I think, when I went back repeatedly, that
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: was the only time I ever felt anything. I felt,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: you know, that to be honest, and also making aware
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: that this is a place that people live beside, you know,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the locals live there and it's private land as well.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: So obviously we got permission to, to be there, but, but,
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: but other people, you know, it's not somewhere that you
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: can legally trespass upon. So, so yeah, I mean, it
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: was just a really interest. I mean, for us, it
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: was just like kind of fascinating part of the world and,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: This idea of like the end of the world, which
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: is kind of what we set up at the beginning
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: of episode one, where it's like, it's the point at
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: which the kind of Mississippi is becoming Bayou that's becoming.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It was described like that. Right.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Right. And then you end up in the sea. So
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: it's this point of literally at which you're, everything's falling apart.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a kind of a great metaphor for
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: what happens in the, the Shula thing.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Wasn't there a sign now if I'm remembering correctly, did
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: you show a sign? Right. There was a sign that said.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: I'm always amazed by that kind of thing. I'm always
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: amazed by what, what, you know, somebody like you, a
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: filmmaker catches that and feed so beautifully into the narrative.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: And I feel like it wasn't just the sign. There
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: was just cinematography and, and new Orleans and, and, you know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: what you captured in certain pictures of slaves. And it all,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: to me, it all meshed so beautifully, right? With, there
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: was just so much history and so much creepiness.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing, I think, that we were really,
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: we wanted to tell a really compelling story that unfolded
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: like a movie in terms of how it, but then obviously,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: because it's a documentary film, And it is stranger than fiction.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, it really is stranger than fiction. So you're
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: trying to do this balancing act where you've kind of gone,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: it's got to look amazing. You've got to respect the
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: history and the victims that you've got here. And you've
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: got to tell their stories and honor them. And then
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you've also got this kind of weird, like just gets weirder.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: It just gets weirder and weirder.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that was the thing that, so
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: I kind of said to myself making it and when
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: I was writing it, I'm just going to come at
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: it like everything's equivalent. You know, like if it's a
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: ghost story, then that's just, you play it as a
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: ghost story. That's what it is. Because people, that's what
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: people are saying. You honour their testimony. So you don't,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: just because somebody's saying something that sounds far-fetched doesn't mean
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: you don't include it in the story. And I think
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: because you do that, then it has this kind of
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: power because these are the stories that they really believe.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: So we didn't hype any of this up. This is
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: just what folk told us.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Even at the end, when you were talking, there was
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: one snake buried at the cemetery and they buried it
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: in the lined box, the showgirl, right? You see, you
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: show the picture of the showgirl. Is that the actual
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: woman with the snake?
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: That's not her, but it's a Bourbon Street. I mean,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: it's very similar.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: And then what do they play? What song is they
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: were burying?
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: They play Goodnight Irene. So it's kind of like, and
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: they have like two hearses and they have like a
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: kind of wake for the snake.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Like what are we even talking about? Even that.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think one of the things that we've got,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: like the score, the music by Matthew Herbert, who's an
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: amazing composer.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Who writes for like also one of the movies. So that,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: the score gives it this kind of incredible kind of
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: rich soundscape, which samples kind of all the animals that
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: are buried there. So there's like samples of cheetahs and
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: cats and dogs. So you've got this kind of like,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: almost like a sense in which the past is erupting
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: into the sound world as well as visually as well.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: So it's incredible.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: It really is incredible. And when, it was Grace, not Dorothy,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: saying that she really didn't like people. She liked animals.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, it was perfect, right? And I'm like, well,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: we could have probably guessed that. That's not, that doesn't sound,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: that's not far-fetched.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: What was really interesting was that before we started making this,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: we did not have that archive. So we had no
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: archive of the Pet Sematary, which there's quite a lot. Yeah, yeah.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: There's no archive of the Pet Sematary. We were still
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: working out who was going to speak and who wasn't.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: We had really solid access, but we were still trying
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: to find out. But then it was just that weird
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: thing where things just start to fall into place. And
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: then that archive is so central to the series in
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: terms of how we revisit the same bits of Grace,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Dorothy's mother, who founded the Pet Sematary. We revisit bits
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: of her talking about her attitude to people, her attitude
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: to animals. Yes. And through the course of the series,
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: it reveals a very different woman. And you look at
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: the words that she's saying and you read them in
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: a very different light.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Yes. I just kept thinking, you know, she was married
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to a mobster. How many times did she shoot the wife?
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Through her breasts. And you're looking at her talking about
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: animals with almost like a sweetness, like I don't know.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: She felt to me in that moment sort of likable, right?
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: This murderer.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: And also people in the series, people say, oh, she
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: was great. She was a lovely person.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: You know, it's like, you know, she was all she was. And,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: you know, and I think that's the thing with Grace.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I think without, you know, I'm trying to avoid plot spoilers,
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: but it's like, but it's, she is this kind of
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: incredible woman who got a place at the table in
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: a really violent world. And she kind of kept her
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: and she, you know, she kind of earned it by
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: any means necessary. Yeah.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: And then also just getting to know Dorothy through her
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: friend's eyes, right? I'm sorry, I'm 58 years old and
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: it just comes and goes.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Patricia Newman.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: Patricia Newman. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But getting
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: to know her and she was so likable to me
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: as well. I sort of loved her. But like just
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: another great, character study almost.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: I love the look of her. I loved everything that
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: she had to say. I loved her fondness for Dorothy.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And I loved when they wanted to pin it on her, how, and,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: and she almost, it was just laughable to her. She
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: was just really, really like, I always hesitate to say character.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: These are real people, but being, I couldn't without her.
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I could have pictured Dorothy having
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: a friend.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one thing that is really, I mean,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Patricia Newman is a force of nature. She's an incredible
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: human being.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: She's cool, yeah.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: And she's formidable in the best sense of that word.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: That's exactly the word that I was looking for.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: You would not miss.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And she's brilliant. And she was so kind of charming
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: and great to spend time with. But she also just
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: gives you this real insight, as you say, into Dorothy's
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: mind and how she lived. and how she felt about
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: the Pet Sematary. easy to kind of forget how difficult
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: it was for a woman who was in the grip
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: of addictions to kind of run this place as a business.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: And I think Patricia was really incredibly supportive of her
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: and took her to run errands and took her to
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: the chemist. And then she obviously inherited it the Pet
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Sematary after Dorothy's death. But she was the one fighting
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: and screaming from the rooftops, as someone says, for this
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: person to be found, the killer to be found. So she,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: you know, she owes a lot of credit. You know,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I know we were talking about Dorothy's ghost and, you know,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: but she was the one who kept the case alive
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: when nobody wanted to hear about it. So I think she, yeah,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: she's quite, I mean, she's quite the, As you say,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: she's just an incredible character. And that's one thing with
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: this story. I mean, I don't know how you feel.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: I'd be intrigued to see what you think, because one
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: thing that some of the other interviewers have said is
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: that it's interesting how it unfolds and reveals itself quite
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: slowly and kind of sucks you in. And it's the
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: characters of the interviewees that do that in many ways.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: So a lot of people have said that it's kind
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: of like, it's got this real kind of sense of
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: which it's just like drawing you in and you just
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: can't get out. And I suppose that's something that for
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of people have said is that it's the
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: people that just make it so compelling as well as
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: the story. Yeah.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: We'll find that. I oftentimes find that when, you know,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: watching true crime documentaries and certainly people were the poll
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: here and, but also just the crazy circumstances and the
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: coincidences and the history of it all, right? And I
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: started episode one, when finished episode one, I couldn't have
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: told you after episode one that it would have gone
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: the way that it did by the end of episode three.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: There was no, I found, maybe there was foreshadowing that
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I just didn't even notice, but I was in episode
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: two and episode three I was shocked and shocked. And
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: then I was shocked again.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: That was the plan was to kind of often what
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: you do is you front load and you say, hey,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: this is all the stuff that's coming up. And, you know,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: the top of the show in episode one. And then
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: you kind of like play out. And then we discussed
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: it to great depth about how to structure this, because
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: it was such a kind of you're getting this labyrinth.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: And you're just kind of getting lost. And then all
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: of a sudden there's like one thing, there's another thing
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: and another thing. And I think that was the thing
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: that we kind of thought less like on reveal it
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: as if it's happening to you in real time. So
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: you're not, you don't foreshadow. We didn't really foreshadow anything.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: And that was the kind of, I didn't know you
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: really didn't. And that was cool.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: You would never know where it's going. And even if
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: you Google it, if you Google the case, you don't
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: get it. a lot of the things that we discovered
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: and we kind of dug up over the course of
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: making this series, it doesn't, you know, our search on
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: the internet doesn't reveal it because there's just so much
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: that when you're on the ground there, people were like,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, there was loads that we didn't actually include.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: There was so much.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The Pet Sematary was built on what was once
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: known as one of the most dangerous roads in America. Yeah.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: And locals would call it Dead Man's Curve because it
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: was before the full lane was put in, it was
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: this piece of road with a bayou off the road
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: and then the pet cemetery. And people would, on Saturday nights,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: be drunk driving home. They'd crash off the road and
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: they'd end up dead in the pet cemetery. So people
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: reported ghosts wandering the pet, those ghosts wandering the pet cemeteries.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Now that's a whole kind of like sub-story that we
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: just didn't have room for.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Even time, right.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Because.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: You just, there was, but that's the thing that, that
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: it really is, is, is one of the contributors says,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: it's like the more you dig, the weirder it gets.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Couple more things. So first of all, I thought that
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: James Tregler was, um, so believable. And, and, you know, I,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I still feel like he didn't care at this point.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: He had, he didn't care about Brandon Nody coming for him.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: He thought he was going to hell if he didn't
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: tell this story. And I thought that was really powerful
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: because obviously Brandon was a scary dude. And I know
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: that some people might say, well, James was already, you know,
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: serving time, but it just, for what, I don't know, me,
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: it really, that's sort of one of the things that
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: cinched it was that He didn't care anymore. He knew
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: that if he didn't tell his truth and didn't get,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: didn't get what the, get Dorothy, the justice that he deserved,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: he was going straight to hell. And that was, that
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to me was really interesting. I also, I wanted to
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: ask you about Brandon because at the end, did she
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: get the justice that she so deserved? What did he
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: serve three years?
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he, he, He got 10 years, five,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: ended up saving five, but he'd already served, you know,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: a couple of years. Yeah, so he was out in
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: three and a half, I think. And, you know, I
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: think one thing that was difficult with this case was
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: by all accounts, he should never have been called because
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: of like, you know, later. And I think it's difficult
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: and it is kind of a bitter pill to swallow. But,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: you know, I think if you speak to the police
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: who were involved in the case, they're like, look, it
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: was a really difficult case. And I think, you know,
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: it was so far from, all the evidence had been lost.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: But one thing that you're talking about Tregler is that he's,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: there is this kind of biblical quality about his testimony,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: that it's about the avenging angel and it's about vengeance and,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: you know, if I don't tell what I know, I'm
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: going to hell. And it becomes this kind of quite,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: it's all happening on this very kind of heightened scale.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: And he's really felt the weight of that. And I
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: think he's a really, I mean, it's just a really,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: he's a really, just a really interesting.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Really interesting. And the way he was described that he
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: looked like, what did, what did the investigators say? He
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: looked like a, not a police.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: College professor.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: College professor with the glasses. Yeah, it was, it was,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: He's such an interesting, everything, listen, we could go on
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and on because I think there's just, these people are
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: so interesting. And I, I want to know more, like,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: I want to know where are all of them now.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: So like, where is, I'll just ask you this one.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: Where's Brandon?
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Still, still living there. So yeah. Yeah.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: We're not having lunch on the pet cemetery anytime soon.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: No. So he's, yeah, he's, he's, he's loving his life.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: And then, you know, some of them are local people.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Patricia's moved away slightly. And then, you know, Christine's in Portland.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: They all kind of just loved their lives. And then
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: we kind of brought them all back to Louise, you know,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: to that part of New Orleans or to Toka to
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: follow the series. And I think it was just a
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: very sort of, it was really interesting to see them
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: re-engage with their past as well. Because I think that's
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: one thing that this is, It's all about the past
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: and how the past will erupt in the present and
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: how you can keep it buried. And I think that's
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: really powerful as a sort of idea and it's a
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: really potent idea. And I think there's one that we,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: it's easy to forget that in many cases, if justice
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: is served, the truth will out. It won't stay.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: Truth always comes out.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And as long as there are people who remember it
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: and who are kind of haunted by it, they will
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: be prone to kind of to say what they know
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: at some point.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: All of this happened in this teeny tiny little piece
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: of this earth and couldn't be held down.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing that's incredible about it.
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: I think that it's this tiny little sort of tract
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: of land and yet it's seen all of this trauma
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and violence and bloodshed. I think that's for me one
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: of the great questions that we pose and hopefully an
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: audience will be kind of engaging with is kind of
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: like what is really going on there.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Okay. So last question, we've already sort of touched on it.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: So now we do believe in ghosts, so we don't
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: believe in ghosts.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: I believe that, that a place can hold the memory
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: of things that have happened there and the people that
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: have died violently there. And I think how you experience
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: that is kind of up for grabs, but I definitely
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: think that places can hold memory and, and the extent
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: to which, um, someone in the series says, you know,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: I think the land holds the trauma, but I think
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: the people hold the trauma. And I think that for
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: me is a kind of really good up some, but
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: I do, I do think that it's the law. I mean,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: the level of number of coincidences that it's just, it
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: seems kind of, I think you'd be, you've got any
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: rational explanation has to make room for the paranormal. That's
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: what I think.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree. And I didn't think that I would.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: So good job. Because I really, I always was like,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: To my husband, I was stopping with the ghosts. Yeah.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: I'm really, you know, I'm so fascinated that you're saying
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: all of this because it's really, it's music to my
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: ears because I think that that it's got that impact
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: that people are actually at a personal level wrestling with
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: what they believe.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And that was always our intention when we were making
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: it was to make something that forced you to question
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: the things that you take for granted about how you
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: see the world, how you think about the world. And
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: actually it, I'm glad that we've kind of in some
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: small way done that.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you did that. From this viewer's perspective, you
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: definitely made me question a lot of things. And I
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: agree with you. I think those are the best types
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: of films. So congratulations to you, my friend. It's going
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: to be huge.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a huge hit. I'm very happy
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: for you.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I hope it is. I mean, yeah, I hope so.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you for talking to us. Cheers.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Cheers.