Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / Marc Grabowski

Transcript

Marc Grabowski · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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[Music]
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my guest today is Mark robowski and we
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are going to be talking about how to
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develop better managers in technology
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companies and particularly in digital
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media Mark has held executive roles at
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companies like crio and Yahoo he was the
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COO of nanigans and the CEO at perio and
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most recently he was the Global Group
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vice president in at Oracle in charge of
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their go to market for their advertising
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product I have seen firsthand that Mark
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leads with passion conviction and
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integrity and the teams that he has had
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under him have responded and respected
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those qualities mark thank you so much
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for joining me today James thanks so
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much for having me it's uh it's an honor
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to be part of this this series excellent
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well thank you um in most of these
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questions I want to focus Less on
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individuals and more on how to set up
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programs to ensure that companies have
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good management
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practices but before we get there I want
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to level Set uh on what makes a good
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manager and I have worked with people
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who in my opinion have been effective
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executives but poor managers and and
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vice versa so in your mind what makes a
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good manager what makes an effective
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executive and what makes a good leader
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in a company and and how do you view the
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skills that support each of those roles
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you know years ago I was talking to a
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leader who I worked with and he helped
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uh helped me Define management versus
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leadership and and I think you bring
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another piece in terms of being a good
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executive Into The Fray here I always
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think of a of a manager is someone who
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helps uh teams get stuff done manage
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metrics um and uh are the doers the
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deliverers uh on the front line um
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leaders I I usually think of as people
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who can
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um set a strategy in place who can
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motivate people who can get people to
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align around uh a key deliverable um and
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Executives a good executive needs to be
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able to do both and to be able to go
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through the different layers and
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understand what does the company need to
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deliver how do we set objectives um on
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the team levels so that every single
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person on the team knows that what
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they're doing today is important and has
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an impact uh you know I I I've seen some
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um you know some managers who are very
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effective at managing a day-to-day but
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uh cannot really bring that sort of
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passion of leadership to the table and I
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think that's one of the areas that it's
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uh it's a learn skill it takes time to
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develop um but if you have enough
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passion for it you can develop that so
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it's I I do think that um great great
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managers bring that leadership to the
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table and great leaders can really set
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the set the tone for their teams and
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help those team members follow along
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with that let me push on that a little
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bit because the way you you you're
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thinking about it it's almost like a
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executive is a senior person to a
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manager which is often the way a lot of
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companies do their titles like manager
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is the first management experience that
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you have I think how I've often thought
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about it manager means people manager
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and the development of the skills of the
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teams underneath them and often
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executive means sort of a way of
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engaging uh at a more strategic level
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within an organization it sounds like
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for you an effective leader needs to
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have both but how do you think about the
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different skills that make up sort of
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people manager versus effective
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executive yeah I i' I've never really
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loved the term people manager but I I
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know you're saying in terms of having a
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team uh of people that you are directly
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overseeing what their responsibilities
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are I I think of the the management
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function itself is one where it's um
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delivering on those metrics delivering
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on whatever your objective as a team uh
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you've set forward to do that's the
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management piece that's the breaking
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down the overarching objective and
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saying all right these are the roles the
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different people on my team have to have
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to achieve to get there uh these are the
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ways that we can look at metrics and
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deliverables uh to get there um you know
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another piece that a manager uh can
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often be responsible for is finding out
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how to build those bridges across teams
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I think that's one area that um you know
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early managers uh don't recognize all
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the time but as you sort of get through
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get into your management career how do
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you build those different Bridges from
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uh your team to other teams how do you
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find out um how teams can work best
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together I I think of management as as a
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specific discipline um leadership uh I
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think encompasses um management but I
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think it also encompasses Vision um
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being able to drive that Vision being
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able to drive that excitement uh across
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an organization and great Executives I
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think have to do it all I think they
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they really have to be able to um take a
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vision to the company sell it up sell it
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across get investment uh get time to
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invest uh and then explain to their
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teams why this is something um that they
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should buy into and if the teams don't
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buy into it they need to be open-minded
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and hear uh what their team members are
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saying and then you know make make
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changes as according uh as I mentioned
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in the introduction you have experience
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in both relatively small companies and
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relatively big companies and and again
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bringing my own personal beliefs you
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kind of need to do both over the course
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of your career to learn the skills I've
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often said I don't believe that I could
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have been effective going straight from
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a startup to Yahoo if I hadn't done a
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stop along the way at Microsoft to
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really get a sense for how different a
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big cop Corporation can operate let let
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me push you on the question of what are
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the SK skills that someone needs to
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focus on in a small company versus a big
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Corporation to be
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successful I think it at first makes
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sense to think about the major
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differences between small and large
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companies and again these are
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generalization so um different companies
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are going to function differently but
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often you see that small companies can
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be more Nimble and move faster uh they
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have less layers that you need to go
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through for approvals uh and uh
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depending on the size of that company
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you can maybe talk to you know the
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person in go to market who's going to be
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sitting right down the hall from you or
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the person legal or wherever it is so
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you can have that conversation um share
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your perspective and then make some
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change uh Rel relatively quickly large
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companies um you don't always have that
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luxury sometimes you do but sometimes
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you don't and uh and as a result uh the
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cycle of change happens slower um so I
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think that one of the the areas that uh
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large companies that leaders need to
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have is a level of um patience um but at
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the same time urgency and I think that's
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that's a a hard balance to strike where
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you want to get things done quickly but
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you have to also understand that not
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every Hill is one to die on um the other
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piece with uh with a small company
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that's great is you you can you know
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it's very easy to have conversations
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one-on ones sit with your team members
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uh see them face to face in many cases
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uh and um understand uh understand a lot
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about different processes through
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collaboration larger companies sometimes
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you don't have that that opportunity if
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you're managing a um you know a
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10-person team it's easy to spend time
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with your team members a couple times a
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day if you're managing aund or a
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thousand person team is much harder so I
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I find that some of the things that you
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do in a small company um get lost when
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you're when you're overseeing a much
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larger team or functioning in a bigger
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organization and I think that that's a
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mistake I think that's one of those
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things that one-on ones team meetings
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skip level conversations they become
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even more important when you're managing
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a large organization it's one of the
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things I've always fol sorry go ahead
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well no I was just gonna say in that
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small company versus big company um how
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do you think about the right allocation
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of time and I'll give you a a personal
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example I don't think I initially knew
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that I needed to allocate more time to
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sort of networking with peers in a big
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company and sort of even just doing the
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rounds explaining what my team does if
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you come out of a small company as you
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say you can meet at the coffee pot and
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everybody knows what your team does or
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at least they might have a sense in a
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bigger company I hate to use the phrase
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you have to sell it but you really have
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to make people aware of what your team
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does and so your time allocation is
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different how how have you do you think
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about that yeah I I don't know if I've
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ever broken it down to a specific time
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allocation of when I need to sell ideas
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through to peers or or when I need to to
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hear and understand uh what each of my
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peers or uh other team members do it's
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it's more of a function of that's just
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that's part of the uh the process so I
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don't know if it's necessarily a
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specific time allocation but time does
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need to get allocated to it what I will
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say is um one of the things that I found
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that's very helpful is especially uh
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when you're managing large organizations
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and Matrix organizations that have
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different functions is uh spending time
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within each of the functions so I'll
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give you an example um at at crio I was
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managing our Global Supply organization
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that had a function that was a
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commercial organization had a technical
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account management organization um data
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science product Supply quality and brand
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safety and there's no way that I could
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be an expert on every single one of
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those functions on a daily basis you
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can't you can't do that but at the same
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time I had I had great leaders uh you
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know in my organization who are managing
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each of those functions um each of them
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would come with a specific set of asks
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or needs or things that uh needed to get
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done um for me to truly understand them
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I needed to have a better level of
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subject matter expertise than just like
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a one on a scale from one to 10 so what
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I would do is each couple of weeks I
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would do a rotational so I would spend a
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week going very deep into Supply quality
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and brand safety and uh have incident on
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meetings have every conversation that
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needs to be had uh within that
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organization across that organization as
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though I was actually leading that group
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now I probably wasn't qualified to lead
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any one of those groups but it was
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really important to be able to get into
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those conversations and see what my
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leaders were going through and the uh
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and kind of those underlying stress
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points that each one had so once you do
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a one week or two week rotational you
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get a better understanding of what each
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leader and what each team is going
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through then when they bubble something
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up to you they say this is urgent and
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important it needs to get done you
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actually have context there so um so
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that's that's the way that I usually um
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spend time not only going deep into my
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own organization but going across and
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it's around a specific topic and it's at
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the kind of beest of one of my leaders
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okay one of the the toughest transitions
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for anyone in their career is the first
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time they become a manager and I'm gonna
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use the phrase again a people manager
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you know and I'm not talking about sort
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of what I'd call fake management of one
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or two direct reports but but a real
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team under you and suddenly you realize
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that you have to change mindset and a
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lot of people struggle with that they
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struggle with how they should spend
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their time and how they should learn to
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be a manager what is the advice that you
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have for someone in that first year or
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two in a in a management role dealing
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with um people issues for the first time
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often wanting to uh demonstrate still
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their skills as an individual
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contributor and not realizing that the
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sort of the game has changed for them I
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think that's the hard hardest thing for
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any new people manager uh to do is they
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probably uh got promoted into that role
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because they're very strong individual
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contributors uh and they're probably one
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of the best not the best on that team or
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in a given or on a similar team at doing
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that job so it's always difficult uh to
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say um to give guidance uh and not do
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for your team so I think there are a
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couple of things that that need to
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happen one is that uh that new manager
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uh needs to very quickly understand what
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the objectives of the overall team are
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so working with their leaders and their
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Executives uh to understand what do we
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have to accomplish to be successful as a
12:38
team as a unit at the end of this
12:40
quarter at the end of this year um share
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that back with the team make sure the
12:44
team is aware and you have Buy in from
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the team on those overarching objectives
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across the team then it's a matter of
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sitting down with each of those team
12:52
members and determining what their
12:54
objectives and key results are what
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their kpis need to be and how they can
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actually deliver against those kpis on a
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quarterly monthly weekly basis whatever
13:03
it might be to be successful as a team
13:06
the manager then you know uh in terms of
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keeping those those team members
13:10
accountable uh has to have those
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followup conversations followup meetings
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and jump into problems where they can
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help to solve those um but uh only to a
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certain level if they find that they're
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um solving all of the problems
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individually in doing the work for the
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team they they either haven't set the
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direction right or they have the wrong
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team members the Second Challenge I
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think a lot of new managers have is um
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they probably had a lot of uh issues
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with the way that things were done
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across teams uh that they could
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highlight before they were a manager and
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now that they're a manager uh they don't
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immediately go into fixing those issues
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and building those bridges across teams
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as I kind of think about leaders
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managers Executives um there's it's sort
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of like um you know building
13:56
infrastructure building roads you know
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an executive needs to lay out this is
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where we need the roads and this is why
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we need the roads and the bridges there
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um the leader needs to make sure the
14:05
team can buy that the manager needs to
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actually go and get those roads and
14:08
bridges built and you know if you use
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that sort of as a mental model um the
14:13
manager needs to understand where those
14:15
bridges need to be built across teams to
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um to take some of that stress off of
14:20
their team to take some of that workload
14:21
off their team if it's something that
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needs to fall into other teams so again
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set the kpis injectives for their team
14:28
and then take the uh uh take the extra
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friction out of the system how as a new
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manager do you know how much to jump in
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how much advice to give and and again
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I'll give context from an example in my
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own career one of the most difficult uh
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management roles I had was when I was
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managing a team of very desperate
14:50
experience someone was effectively you
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know straight out of University one or
14:54
two years out someone was 10 15 years
14:57
into their career and the types of of
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conversations that you're having with
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those people are very different and I
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imagine very challenging for a new
15:05
manager how as a new manager do you make
15:08
that judgment call as to how much advice
15:11
to give how much to lean in how much to
15:13
tell someone how to do that
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job yeah it's it's going to be different
15:18
on every occasion as you mentioned um
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and you know I often try to think about
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what is the person bringing to the table
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that's unique and that's um that's good
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uh no no one's going to be perfect at
15:28
all aspects of the role but you know
15:30
what role does that person play on the
15:33
team to help the team and then is that
15:35
uh individual contributor learning are
15:37
they improving over time are they
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improving quickly enough um if you find
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that you're uh giving guidance and
15:44
advice and helping uh and helping but
15:46
those people aren't internalizing it
15:48
there's another problem there might be a
15:49
training issue there might be an
15:51
understanding issue a communication
15:52
issue but you've got to kind of U
15:55
unstick that piece if they're learning
15:57
if they're improving and you can see
15:59
that they're on the right path uh to be
16:00
a greater contributor um then you're
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probably leaning in enough the other is
16:06
to to speak with normally when someone's
16:08
in their first level manager role um
16:11
there are other managers who are going
16:13
to have similar roles um they're they're
16:15
not a standalone in their organization
16:18
so talking with their peers and having
16:20
that conversation to understand how some
16:22
of those team members have progressed uh
16:24
on their teams understand good
16:26
experiences and not so good experiences
16:28
they've had with with team members and
16:30
how they've managed through can be very
16:31
helpful as a manager you're not out
16:33
there on your own it feels like it at
16:35
some point um but it's it it shouldn't
16:37
be a lonely job you have a lot of peers
16:40
probably to lean on whether they're in
16:41
your company or other companies um where
16:44
you can have a similar conversation
16:46
actually work through some of those
16:47
specific examples you shouldn't be
16:48
afraid of of networking having those
16:51
conversations okay um we've talked about
16:53
individuals and individual managers but
16:56
when you think about the sort of what is
16:58
the systematic areas that most companies
17:01
need to pay more attention to when it
17:04
comes to either developing good
17:06
management skills or slightly broader
17:09
good corporate decision
17:11
making yeah that's um the decision-
17:13
making is an interesting one um and in
17:16
in terms of General management skills uh
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I think that there are a few things that
17:20
can be uh taught and um kind of
17:23
institutionalized throughout an
17:25
organization um the first is
17:27
understanding who actually owns a
17:29
decision um so first off align
17:31
initiatives make sure that everyone
17:33
knows where you're supposed to be going
17:34
when you got to get it delivered by and
17:36
why it's important so understanding the
17:38
why uh becomes very important you know
17:41
everyone's read Simon syndic at this
17:42
point uh most you know a lot of people
17:44
have read extreme ownership and you have
17:45
to understand Mission Clarity and where
17:47
we're going great then it's a matter of
17:50
uh defining what is the decision that
17:52
needs to be made um and uh what I try to
17:55
do early in that process is roll out and
17:57
and it sounds very cons and it is um but
18:00
the rapid decision-making process um and
18:03
if for anyone who hasn't um laid out
18:06
rapid it's uh recommend agree perform
18:09
input and decide um and each person
18:12
within a process is assigned one or some
18:15
of those different roles uh I won't go
18:17
too much into detail there but the most
18:19
important thing there is to um is to
18:21
identify who the decision maker is who
18:23
owns the decision I try to do that
18:26
before you you go into the debate before
18:28
you start to lay out all of the the
18:30
casework to make the decision because
18:33
often you get to the the end uh of of
18:36
the negotiation and three people think
18:38
that they own the decision and then it
18:39
becomes a fist fight so I think it's
18:41
very important to lay out what each
18:44
person's role is in getting to that
18:46
decision and for people to identify that
18:48
no I don't own this decision you know
18:51
James does um and that you're going to
18:53
align behind that uh and that that other
18:56
people will bring that that piece to the
18:57
table that that is the role of an
18:58
executive as well to lay out how are we
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going to identify decision makers how
19:02
are we going to identify what your role
19:03
is in making this decision and what are
19:06
those um you know those North stars that
19:09
we have to align around to drive that
19:11
decision okay uh I want to ask you a
19:14
question about intensity and but to tell
19:18
it I to ask the question I have to talk
19:20
about your intensity and I think one of
19:21
the first times I met we were in a gym
19:24
together and you were you saw me and you
19:28
recommended a workout it was called the
19:29
300 workout it was like 50 pull-ups 50
19:33
press UPS uh 50 deadlifts and and so on
19:36
and I couldn't do the workout and I
19:38
trained up and you after a couple of
19:40
months later I came back to you and I
19:42
was like Mark great news I did the
19:44
workout and you're like how long did it
19:46
take you I like 50 minutes and uh you
19:49
were like 50 like five z Oh that can't
19:52
be right I think I took 22 minutes I was
19:55
like 22 do you remember the cavard or
19:57
your response for how you managed to get
19:59
it done in 22 minutes I I I think you're
20:02
probably going to remind me of how I got
20:03
it done in 22 minutes I I think you said
20:06
that you had to stop and throw up a
20:08
couple of times to get it done and so uh
20:12
again no no judgment but it gives you a
20:14
sense for how intense and passionate you
20:16
are when you take something on so
20:18
actually let me ask the question you
20:21
have a lot of drive a lot of intensity
20:25
two-part question how do you inspire
20:29
similar levels of drive and intensity in
20:31
those around you and those that you're
20:33
leading and if you're not seeing that
20:36
passion and intensity as a as a manager
20:39
and a leader what do you
20:41
do yeah so first off that that was a
20:44
good 10 years ago that 300 work I'm
20:46
pretty sure right now it would take me
20:47
the better part of an hour as well so uh
20:49
let's let's start right there uh and and
20:52
I'm I'm also confident that you can
20:53
squat bench and deadlift a whole lot
20:55
more than I can these days James so
20:57
let's let's not downplay that
20:59
um but when sorry go
21:02
ahead when it comes to intensity um I I
21:05
don't know I think we're all wired a
21:07
little bit differently and I think
21:08
that's that's one thing to call out um
21:11
for me I I tend to I'm I'm you know like
21:14
a a dog on a piece of meat when I'm uh
21:17
going after something I get really
21:18
interested in it I go after it 100% um
21:21
and it's you know it's just sort of that
21:24
uh that's the you know singular Focus
21:27
there's a book called The One thing and
21:29
I sort of believe that that there's only
21:30
really one thing that you can do 100%
21:32
and be that focused on I think that we
21:34
all try to you um you know be balanced
21:37
and and uh spend our time doing all
21:40
these different things it's very hard
21:41
for me to do that um you know I I try to
21:43
go all in uh all the time on just like
21:46
on a given thing um but I think that
21:48
there's there's there has to be a good
21:50
why behind that there has to be a good
21:52
purpose for it um for that workout or
21:55
for if I'm running an ultramarathon
21:58
you know ultramarathons are are one of
22:00
those things I do these races now that
22:02
are 50 miles or 100 miles like nobody
22:05
can really Run 100 miles and not feel
22:08
some pain uh it's Gonna Hurt it's gonna
22:10
suck your body's GNA break down your
22:12
mind's G to break down but the only
22:13
thing that's going to get you through it
22:15
is uh having a really strong purpose and
22:17
why you started that and um I've I've
22:21
luckily always or almost always had a
22:23
good purpose and why to get to the end
22:25
of that uh to that race and it's the why
22:28
is stronger than my excuses um and I
22:31
think that's a really important thing I
22:32
think it's similar when when you're
22:34
talking about driving a team the team's
22:36
got to understand what their purpose is
22:38
on the project uh what their purpose is
22:40
on the team how they can drive that
22:42
success for themselves and for their
22:44
team members um you know when we think
22:47
about um different um different
22:50
motivators there's like you know you can
22:52
go to the masa's hierarchies of needs
22:54
there's the really basic ones the food
22:55
shelter safety ones but when you start
22:58
to go a little bit further up uh in that
23:00
hierarchy it's how do people create peer
23:04
relationships how do they feel like
23:05
they're part of a community like they're
23:07
a contributing member of a community um
23:09
how can they um you know help other
23:12
people win how can they be in the
23:14
service of others uh those are the types
23:16
of things that uh I find that are are
23:18
really motivating for team members uh
23:21
when they can you know get to that
23:22
actualization that they're um you know
23:25
that they're an expert in something that
23:26
they're driving value uh for not just
23:29
for themselves but for other people that
23:31
usually becomes one of the primary
23:33
motivators uh for that intensity it's
23:35
different for different people but I
23:37
found that's normally a pretty Common
23:39
Place Let's Talk About Management
23:42
specifically within the digital media
23:44
industry and I think there's a couple of
23:46
common characteristics or challenges one
23:49
is it's an industry that while becoming
23:51
mature now is you know still evolving
23:54
very quickly in terms of how standards
23:57
are used who the dominant players are
24:00
how the ecosystem evolves you know
24:02
basically the the number of things that
24:04
a manager should should be worried about
24:06
is constantly growing what does that
24:09
mean in terms of how a manager or an
24:12
executive within digital media needs to
24:14
operate differently than a manager or an
24:18
executive in other
24:20
Industries well I think there are a few
24:22
things one digital media moves very fast
24:24
from a technical standpoint from a
24:26
privacy standpoint regulations all those
24:28
pieces so I think that there's um in
24:30
terms of needing to keep up and do the
24:34
right thing um those have become
24:36
increasingly more important in the last
24:38
decade um there was a time where you
24:40
know again we use the terms Wild West a
24:42
lot and you know if you think about
24:44
digital media in 2000 2003 2005 we we
24:49
are just Paving the way at the at that
24:51
point and um we were all trying to do
24:53
the best that we could but you know then
24:56
um the the revenue started to grow the
25:00
size companies started to build out the
25:02
number of people coming to the space
25:04
increased and we still didn't have the
25:06
controls that we needed and I think that
25:08
that kind of puts us in a a strange spot
25:10
that we're in today where there's a lot
25:12
of Regulation there's a lot of privacy
25:14
requirements so we have to move quickly
25:16
in terms of addressing those the other
25:19
is uh the consumption habits change
25:21
formats change channels change um at one
25:24
point it was you know just text on a
25:26
screen then it was you know dis display
25:28
and video and CTV and mobile and all
25:31
these different formats um and and when
25:34
you U take those formats plus privacy
25:36
and regulations and then a global scale
25:39
because this is no longer just one
25:41
country uh that you focus on at a time
25:44
you have to focus on global scale uh all
25:47
of a sudden you have to be um making the
25:49
right decisions that can actually stand
25:51
the test of time um so I I think that
25:54
when we think about the digital uh space
25:56
there's just a lot of change it moves
25:57
quickly
25:58
and we have to think about those
26:00
decisions of how are we going to look
26:02
back on these decisions in 10 or 20
26:04
years and say did we do the right thing
26:06
to sustain that industry and that model
26:09
uh at that time and this is this is
26:11
interesting because the people who are
26:13
in individual contributor all the way up
26:15
to Executive roles now are the ones who
26:17
are going to determine if this industry
26:20
sticks around or grows uh over the next
26:22
20 or 30 years brilliant thank you uh as
26:26
we start to come to a close any Clos
26:28
thoughts on either common mistakes that
26:30
you see managers make that aren't
26:32
discussed enough or or thoughts that you
26:35
have in terms of where people should be
26:37
taking more time and attention around
26:39
their management
26:40
practices well there there are a few on
26:42
that maybe we can kind of break those
26:44
down I we'll maybe start with the
26:45
mistakes then kind of end on a higher
26:47
note of where people can spend the time
26:48
the the mistakes that I think a lot of
26:50
managers make is uh they I mean man we
26:53
all make I should say many mistakes um
26:55
whether it's leading from an ivory Tower
26:58
um you know and and being two hands off
27:00
or just being in the weeds all the time
27:03
and micromanaging both are both are bad
27:07
uh and it's finding that uh that middle
27:08
ground and the thing is it's it's also
27:11
going to be um team member by team
27:13
member some are going to want you to be
27:15
more involved and more Hands-On and some
27:17
are going to want you to you know just
27:18
set Direction and back off so there's
27:21
there is no one management style that's
27:23
going to work for all team members um I
27:25
think a second thing and I I recognize
27:27
this when I uh first got a CLE title or
27:30
maybe second time got a c-l title title
27:33
kind of doesn't matter um it's it it's
27:36
sure it it matters on your LinkedIn for
27:38
a minute but it doesn't matter your team
27:40
if you're not bringing value to your
27:41
team it does not matter if you're a VP
27:44
is CEO none of that matters the only
27:47
thing that matters is how can you bring
27:48
value to your team and to your partners
27:50
and customers on a daily basis so I I
27:54
think that the uh the mistake that a lot
27:55
of managers think is that all of a
27:57
sudden from one day to the next they're
27:59
automatically empowered and people are
28:00
going to fall in line it just isn't
28:02
going to happen unless you're bringing
28:03
them some value um another issue is not
28:07
performance managing and I know this
28:09
sounds like it's you know uh it's one of
28:12
those like oh you gotta gotta fire
28:14
people and move people out that's not
28:15
necessarily the case but it's very very
28:18
important for people to know what
28:19
success looks like and to um you know to
28:23
to live by that and to you know to
28:25
deliver on that hold yourself
28:26
accountable but also make sure that your
28:28
team is accountable um a players want to
28:31
work with a players and they see a lot
28:33
of people slipping by on a daily basis
28:36
um they don't want to be there so you'll
28:37
start to lose the a players so keep your
28:39
team accountable but make sure that they
28:41
know what success looks like um I think
28:45
another is when people think linearly
28:47
about Talent of like well you're in this
28:50
um individual contributor one role
28:51
you're next as individual contributor
28:53
too I think there there are a lot of
28:55
times where there are leaders that are
28:56
buing your organization that you need to
28:58
jump up several levels because they've
29:00
got a great opportunity to lead and
29:02
they're just getting buried there if you
29:04
don't move them quickly they're going to
29:06
find another role elsewhere so identify
29:08
that talent and continually uh you know
29:11
find ways to get them onto new projects
29:13
and into new roles and I think that the
29:15
uh the last one um as I kind of think
29:18
through this I wrote an article on this
29:19
recently uh don't be an idiot and don't
29:21
be a Wim so when people take on a new
29:24
role I I take this from from running as
29:27
well so in marathons or ultramarathons
29:30
the first half don't be an idiot don't
29:32
go out too fast um but in the back half
29:34
don't be a wimp it's going to hurt it's
29:35
going to be hard get over it and a lot
29:38
of managers will get into a new role and
29:40
they'll just immediately make change and
29:42
try to bring their own team in and um a
29:44
lot of the good people on the team are
29:46
like I'm I'm you know they're not
29:48
listening he's not listening to me and
29:50
they they leave so take some time take a
29:53
beat but then once you know the right
29:55
direction don't be whim make the hard
29:57
decisions and move forward so those are
29:59
some kind of pitfalls that people fall
30:01
into hey thank you so much for for
30:03
taking the time I always find it
30:05
incredibly useful talking to you and I
30:08
hope others uh get some benefit from
30:10
your wisdom really appreciate it thank
30:13
you hey James thanks so much for having
30:15
me this has been a lot of fun excellent
30:17
catch you later
30:20
[Music]