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Behind the Logo: The Story of the Nike Swoosh · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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  Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man, the myths,
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  Speaker 1: the legend, mister Max Williams woos Williams.
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  Speaker 2: Love it. Sorry that was that was I was. I
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  Speaker 2: was going for a new kind of wu. I like
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  Speaker 2: it had a bottle. I'm a prop comic now.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've gotta we've always got to expand our horizons,
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  Speaker 1: try new things.
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  Speaker 2: The objects here nothing really, we're recording live.
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  Speaker 1: No, there's cool stuff. Our shoes are cool. I'm Benyard.
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  Speaker 1: Know what kind of shoes are you walking today?
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  Speaker 3: I'm a Van's guy, man, a couple you know, I'm
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  Speaker 3: actually in my old age become a Crocs guy.
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  Speaker 2: I know, too much consternation.
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  Speaker 3: Of my fifteen year old child who actually for my
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  Speaker 3: birthday bought me what they consider an acceptable pair of crocs.
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  Speaker 1: Right right, that's very recent. And next, what kind of
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  Speaker 1: shoes are you wearing there?
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  Speaker 2: Man?
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  Speaker 4: So I have some partially recycled adidases on because I
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  Speaker 4: try to only wear shoes that are at least like
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  Speaker 4: forty percent recycled.
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  Speaker 2: Now I'm sorry, did you say Adidas is adidases?
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  Speaker 3: I think Adidas may well be its own plural like
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  Speaker 3: sheep like sheep, or or or or.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna we're gonna get to that, because there
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  Speaker 1: is a reason we're talking about shoes.
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  Speaker 3: I only wear crocs on special occasis though, by the way,
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  Speaker 3: I love Vans.
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  Speaker 2: I have a pair of Jordans. I finally got my
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  Speaker 2: first pair of Jordans.
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  Speaker 3: I like I've you know, I'm a dad, So I
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  Speaker 3: have some new new balances that I wear to the gym.
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  Speaker 2: What have those? Ben? Those are cool looking?
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  Speaker 1: What are those? Uh be taking a figure it out?
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  Speaker 1: I don't worry. I cleaned up by. These are fresh socks.
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  Speaker 2: It's Toronto on the bottom. That's pretty good.
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  Speaker 1: That's weird. I notice these are called Hoff.
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  Speaker 2: No idea sounds cool.
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  Speaker 1: No Idea. Okay, so off brand shoes we are today.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking about a really interesting story, a history of
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  Speaker 1: logos and a history of sneakers. Because I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if you and I aren't got like big basketball guys,
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  Speaker 1: so we probably don't think of well, we're not big
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  Speaker 1: sports guys. We don't have mad boosties. We don't have
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  Speaker 1: mad boosties. But that's a great show. Shout out Jack
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  Speaker 1: and Miles.
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  Speaker 4: Do we need someone to talk about sports now? Well,
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  Speaker 4: I'm just saying no, no, we're good.
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  Speaker 2: No, I'm right here.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, Nolan, I don't think about sneakers a bunch. So
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  Speaker 1: it's weird when you realize that there's some of the
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  Speaker 1: most recognizable brands in the entire world, like the Nike swoosh.
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  Speaker 3: The swoosh yeah, or like the Pepsi swirl, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the McDonald's golden arches, the rolling Stones, lips and tongue
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  Speaker 3: which was actually kind of a rock and roll middle
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  Speaker 3: finger to all of that kind of corporatization and logo,
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  Speaker 3: you know, slinging.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And we're gonna explore the story behind some
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  Speaker 1: of these logos. I think we start with the big
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  Speaker 1: dog first, Nike. I was astonished to find. I think
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  Speaker 1: we all were surprised to find that Nike wasn't always Nike,
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  Speaker 1: and they didn't come up with the swoosh immediately or
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  Speaker 1: on their own.
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  Speaker 2: That's right, Ben, And and you know Nike.
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  Speaker 3: Now, I associate more with the shoe company and the
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  Speaker 3: brand than I do with the Greek goddess of what see.
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  Speaker 3: I don't even remember what she was, the Greek goddess,
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  Speaker 3: goddess Victory. Yeah, but obviously that's what Nike is named
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  Speaker 3: after and has taken over the associations with that word
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  Speaker 3: entirely along with that that iconic.
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  Speaker 2: But it's curvy, you know. It sort of makes you
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  Speaker 2: feel like speed.
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  Speaker 3: It has a feeling of like quickness or like like
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  Speaker 3: you know, disappearing, like with a flash, like that's the
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  Speaker 3: vapor trail you leave behind yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Or yeah, it's supposed to be like a wing. It
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  Speaker 1: feels dynamic. So back in the day, when these two
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  Speaker 1: guys start the company that will become Nike, their track
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  Speaker 1: and field bros. It's Bill Bowerman and Phil Knight in
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  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, they combine their powers because Bill used
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  Speaker 1: to be a track and field coach at the University
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  Speaker 1: of Oregon and this guy, Phil Knight was his student.
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  Speaker 1: Back in the day. They got together and they started
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  Speaker 1: a company called Blue Ribbon Sports, which would have been
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  Speaker 1: amazing for perhaps Blue Ribbon this a few decades later.
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  Speaker 2: Bill Bowerman, you think people call him Bilbo for fun.
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  Speaker 1: Probably, Yeah, it depends on how funny was.
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  Speaker 3: I would have been cool with that, Yeah, and you know,
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  Speaker 3: Nike is still based in Oregon today. I actually didn't
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  Speaker 3: realize that until pretty recently. But in nineteen sixty four
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  Speaker 3: they started this Blue Ribbons Sports, which is.
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  Speaker 2: It's just not sexy. What does that say?
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  Speaker 3: It sounds like a kind of a Mom and Pops
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  Speaker 3: sporting goods store where you might get like baseball teas
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  Speaker 3: printed for your little league.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I associate blue Ribbon with awards with culinary awards, exact.
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  Speaker 2: Blue ribbon ji, I jam.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe maybe not the best association now, but
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  Speaker 1: we get what they're talking about first place, is what
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  Speaker 1: they're just saying, sure.
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  Speaker 2: Or you know, the prized pig at the fair.
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  Speaker 3: And initially this Blue Ribbon Sports, they did have a logo,
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  Speaker 3: but it was something that I actually wasn't super familiar with,
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  Speaker 3: but it kind of makes sense.
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  Speaker 2: Something called a lettermark.
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  Speaker 3: So they basically just had these initials brs that were
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  Speaker 3: sort of, you know, laced together on top of the company's.
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  Speaker 2: Word which is word mark. You might ask, different than
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  Speaker 2: a letter mark?
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  Speaker 3: We exactly, A word mark is basically a typographic treatment.
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  Speaker 3: It is a font typically would need to be proprietary font,
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  Speaker 3: like a custom design fund. If you use some you know,
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  Speaker 3: we talked about this, I think on the Fonts episode,
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  Speaker 3: like how well, actually, you know what's funny is I
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  Speaker 3: believe the logo that mister Elon Musk has chosen for
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  Speaker 3: his new social media app X is actually like some
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  Speaker 3: sort of hexadecimal code from a set of characters that
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  Speaker 3: is completely untrademarkable, and he just hasn't gotten that far
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  Speaker 3: and is thinking yet he just like shoved it out there.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah, you need you can't make up a logo
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  Speaker 3: for your company in comic sands and then register that
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  Speaker 3: as a word mark, right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And gosh, I had so much fun
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  Speaker 1: on the font episode, particularly when we got to the
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  Speaker 1: story the wingding guy.
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  Speaker 2: It was a font of conversation.
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  Speaker 1: It was it was and Max is just let us know,
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  Speaker 1: we put a drum beat in there. And these logos
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  Speaker 1: are important. They communicate with the world in multiple ways.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: It kind of hacks your brain. So even the most
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  Speaker 1: simplistic appearing logos have a lot of thought put behind them.
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  Speaker 1: Probably one of the most famous word marks is FedEx.
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  Speaker 1: And if you have somehow not heard this, folks, the
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  Speaker 1: reason that FedEx logo is so impressive is because if
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  Speaker 1: you look at it, you'll realize that they built in
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  Speaker 1: an arrow.
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  Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, it's a hidden arrow. It's an era
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  Speaker 3: that's created by the negative space, I believe.
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  Speaker 2: And that's the thing. I mean you mentioned all the
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  Speaker 2: work and research and all that stuff. A lot of money.
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  Speaker 3: Goes into these seemingly simple and innocuous creations too. Logo
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  Speaker 3: design is a massive expenditure for a company because they
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  Speaker 3: put research and development in to it. They do focus
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  Speaker 3: testing and all kinds of things. Sometimes his crowdsource, which
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  Speaker 3: you know, if you remember the episode of Silicon Valley
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  Speaker 3: where Gavin Belsen was trying to crowdsource what his signature
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  Speaker 3: would look like on the new the box and the
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  Speaker 3: most popular one looked like a giant penis and he.
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  Speaker 2: Did not clock it like at all.
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  Speaker 3: And the dirony was that he was going to have
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  Speaker 3: his own signature crowdsource, see because his actual signature apparently
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  Speaker 3: everyone said it made him look like a sociopath.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's the tricky thing about crowdsourceing anything. Shout
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  Speaker 1: out to body mcboat face. So these guys didn't crowdsource,
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  Speaker 1: but they did they did understand that their branding was important.
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  Speaker 1: So blue ribbon sports brs. People are wearing their bers
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  Speaker 1: I guess you could call them, and they're buying them
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  Speaker 1: from out of the back of this guy's car in
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  Speaker 1: the very beginning, and they say, look, our branding is fine,
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  Speaker 1: but it seems pretty complicated. We don't want people to
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  Speaker 1: have to think and process a lot. We want them
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  Speaker 1: to see something, identify it with us, and buy the shoes.
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  Speaker 1: So in nineteen seventy one they get together and they
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  Speaker 1: decide to change the name of their brand. They land
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  Speaker 1: on Nike, after the Greek goddess of victory, and over
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  Speaker 1: time they got to the Nike swoosh. But the question
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  Speaker 1: is how did they get there? Who came up with
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  Speaker 1: the id?
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  Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't crowdsourced, but it was kind of a
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  Speaker 3: homework assignment for somebody.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, like I believe it was a.
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  Speaker 3: Young graphic design student who was studying under somebody that
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  Speaker 3: knew the Nike guys. And then it was sort of like, hey,
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  Speaker 3: these guys are looking for a thing. Here's an opportunity
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  Speaker 3: for you to get some real world design experience and
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  Speaker 3: you know, some billable hours, which I think in the
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  Speaker 3: seventies the going rate was something like seven dollars an hour,
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  Speaker 3: and that was like pretty decent.
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  Speaker 1: That was still kind of a sweet deal. Yeah, because
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  Speaker 1: you're right, man. She was a student at Portland State
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  Speaker 1: University and she started as a journalism major if I
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  Speaker 1: recall correctly, and then took a design course just on
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  Speaker 1: a lart Carolyn Davidson. Oh yes, yes, ye, this brilliant
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  Speaker 1: designer does also have a name. She gets her bachelor's
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  Speaker 1: degree eventually nineteen seventy one. So the story way we
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  Speaker 1: heard it is that Phil Knight, remember that former student
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  Speaker 1: who had started started a company. He was teaching an
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  Speaker 1: accounting class at the university and he overheard Carolyn Davidson
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  Speaker 1: and say, like complaining that oil painting supplies were expensive,
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  Speaker 1: and so he said, look, you can come work with me.
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  Speaker 1: I'll why don't you create some charts and do some
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  Speaker 1: graphs and stuff like this because I've got Japanese executives
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  Speaker 1: coming in I need to impress them.
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  Speaker 2: Japanese people love charts and graphs. It is known.
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  Speaker 1: I think most people like a good graph. I'm a
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  Speaker 1: sucker for an infograph.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah for sure. But it's like I like
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  Speaker 2: ones that like convey very little information to jump in here.
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  Speaker 4: Actually, guys, we're here in the studio, and right before
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  Speaker 4: we got recording, ran to two of our coworkers another Ben,
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  Speaker 4: Benjuster and Alex and I was like, hey, how is
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  Speaker 4: y'all's meetings?
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  Speaker 2: Like? Good, there's a power port. I'm like, ooh, I
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  Speaker 2: like power point. I'm that guy.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, we should like have a podcast where we just
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: critique power points.
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  Speaker 2: I believe. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it.
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  Speaker 1: I love that. How easily that will work on an
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  Speaker 1: audio medium exactly? Or you know, we have cameras in
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  Speaker 1: one of these studios. Now we could just now my
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  Speaker 1: pitch is it's purely audio. Okay, I will I will
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  Speaker 1: accept that pitch if we can also kind of make
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: this our our home based studio, like Max was saying,
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  Speaker 1: and get just a cartoonish like an offensively large picture
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  Speaker 1: of a very complicated graph.
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  Speaker 2: We're gonna have room with the grandfather clock.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, see it, right, yeah, you see it,
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  Speaker 3: you do see it.
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  Speaker 2: I have a question.
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  Speaker 3: It seems like this is one of these apocryphal kind
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  Speaker 3: of tales where it's almost the stuff of legend, where
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  Speaker 3: like as we you know, a minute ago, we were
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  Speaker 3: saying that it was almost like a competition where they
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  Speaker 3: looked at several options, you know, and that there was
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  Speaker 3: some like design students that were sort of tapped for this.
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  Speaker 3: But then there's this version of the story where it's
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  Speaker 3: like the benevolent Nights, you know, in between his accounting classes,
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  Speaker 3: well being the CEO of a burgeoning footwear empire is
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  Speaker 3: like kindly offers to pay two dollars an hour so
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  Speaker 3: you can buy paint.
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  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, earlier we had said is we wanted
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  Speaker 1: to get back to this, so we said seven dollars
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  Speaker 1: an hour. That's a really sweet gig. Yeah, I was,
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  Speaker 1: I was, I was overshooting significantly. Well, you know, maybe
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  Speaker 1: Phil did pay her that much. Maybe that'd be cool.
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  Speaker 1: So here's what happens. The way we understand it is
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  Speaker 1: the swoosh design is reluctantly chosen out of several options,
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  Speaker 1: and Carolyn, like anybody who's been a freelance graphic designer,
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  Speaker 1: you know how this works. You have to come in
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  Speaker 1: with several comps, comparisons, People look at them, they tell
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  Speaker 1: you what they do or don't like. And according to
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  Speaker 1: Nike's own website, when Phil Knight first saw the Swoosh,
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  Speaker 1: he said, I don't love it, but it grow on me.
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  Speaker 2: See.
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  Speaker 3: I find that to be pretty forward thinking, honestly, because
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  Speaker 3: I mean, sure, maybe you know, they weren't what we
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  Speaker 3: know of the Nike Empire today. They were still on
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  Speaker 3: their way to that thing, right, They're still a little
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  Speaker 3: bit smaller, scrappy operation, so they probably needed to move quickly.
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  Speaker 3: They wanted to like get this thing chosen so they
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  Speaker 3: could move on. They probably I didn't even quite see
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  Speaker 3: the significance of it at the time. Yeah, to be
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  Speaker 3: able to say, you know, maybe this isn't perfect, but
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  Speaker 3: let's roll with it, because I think it could grow
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  Speaker 3: on me. And then it it's become the most one
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  Speaker 3: of the most iconic, you know, brand marks of all time,
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  Speaker 3: just so recognizable. And then you have to ask yourself,
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  Speaker 3: is that because it's really good or it's because we've
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  Speaker 3: been seeing it for so long?
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  Speaker 1: That's the question, sort of a chicken and the egg
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  Speaker 1: kind of thing, right. So it's nuts because they just
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  Speaker 1: happened to choose this curve check mark and it had
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  Speaker 1: Nike in hand drawn script across it. You can see
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  Speaker 1: a picture of this as well. The reason it's the
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  Speaker 1: swoosh is supposed to be reminiscent of several things, of
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  Speaker 1: accomplishment and of wings, because the goddess Nike was known
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  Speaker 1: for being a personification of victory and she had a wingspan.
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  Speaker 2: Oh she had wings. Yeah, she had wings.
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  Speaker 3: Oh you know what, you might recognize some famous sculptures
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  Speaker 3: of her where her head is conspicuously missing and it's
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  Speaker 3: just like the wings and no arms. There's definitely some
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  Speaker 3: some statues of Nike that didn't make it.
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  Speaker 2: Might even have some in your local art museum. But
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  Speaker 2: that's right.
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  Speaker 3: I always, I guess when I think of the wings
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  Speaker 3: and shoes, I think of the guy with the winged shoes.
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  Speaker 2: Who is that?
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  Speaker 1: Hermes?
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  Speaker 2: Hermes? Hermes not cool is enough name for a shoe company.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, you know he's got a past, isn't Hermie's
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  Speaker 4: in charge of like the river sticks and like hell.
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  Speaker 2: Basically, No, that's that's somebody else hades. Hey, okay, Hermi's hades.
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  Speaker 2: You can get. You can get the confusion.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Hermes is a character in the future Ama. But yeah,
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  Speaker 3: Hermes didn't we do it? An Illumination Global Unlimited ad
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  Speaker 3: years ago about her Hermes mop Yes, written by her
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: powre vogel Bo. That's right, Yeah, that was a weird one.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Check that episode out. But anyway, they go with Nike,
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  Speaker 3: she's got wings too. Again, I would go with Hermes
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  Speaker 3: because I think he's got wings literally on his shoes already.
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  Speaker 3: That's pretty that's a really good point. It seemed like
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  Speaker 3: a missed opportunity. But Nike, it is. They got the swoosh.
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  Speaker 3: I can see it now. The swoosh represents her of
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  Speaker 3: the curve of the wing. I'd never really associated it
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  Speaker 3: with a wing. I think I always, in my mind
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  Speaker 3: envisioned it as like the sort of blur that's left
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  Speaker 3: behind as you're sprinting, you know what I mean.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that's valid. I also thought of it
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  Speaker 1: brought up. I always thought of it as like check
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  Speaker 1: that's done. Yeah, you've accomplished that thing. We found out.
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  Speaker 1: The name of the the name of this check mark,
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  Speaker 1: the swoosh. It's a bit of automatopoeia. It's supposed to
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  Speaker 1: be just like you mentioned, it's supposed to be reminiscent
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  Speaker 1: of the whoosh sound that the shoes make when they're
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  Speaker 1: running by.
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  Speaker 2: You got it. Okay.
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  Speaker 3: So that's the thing about logos is they conjure a
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  Speaker 3: lot of associations and connections in the mind of the viewer.
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  Speaker 3: You know, you can obviously help feed those associations with
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  Speaker 3: the products the company makes and're you know, advertising campaigns
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  Speaker 3: and all of that stuff. But over a long enough time,
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  Speaker 3: brand names and brand images really can start to have
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  Speaker 3: a very powerful impact, you know. And we're going to
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: see that in another example of another kind of athletics
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  Speaker 3: clothing slash fashion company, you know, because a lot of
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  Speaker 3: these brands that started off as like you know, for
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  Speaker 3: runners and athletes have really become like streetwear and like
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: like super high fashion and all these crazy collaborations with
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  Speaker 3: like designers and influencers and you know, pop cultural.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Folks and the fashion house Chanel makes sneakers. I did
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  Speaker 1: not know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, have you ever seen any of those horrible Balenciaga
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  Speaker 3: sneakers that are like ten thousand bucks a pop and
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: look like they're just covered in hot glue.
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  Speaker 1: I kind of want those.
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  Speaker 2: Wreck you get those.
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  Speaker 3: I'll get the yellow crocs versions and we have to
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  Speaker 3: rock them together on the same day and walk with
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: our arms linked up.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: All right, But Max has to be into Max. You
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: gotta get weird.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: He can throw rose petals behind us. What word shoes.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: I when I I mean, I have a friend who's
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: really into elevator shoes, So I might get some elevator
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: shoes and be like, you know, walking my hygd all being.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Like six four Are those like platform shoes? Yea, like
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Herman monster shoes. Yeah.
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: I have a friend it's about five four inch. She
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: wears eight inch elevator shoes.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: My kid wears some kind of Herman monstery type cloud hoppers.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got I've got some old boots that I
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: wear around. You gotta be careful because when we come
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: into the office, Man, I can't walk in wearing combat boots.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: It seems strangely on purpose and indicative of things that
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: I am not attempting to put out into the office.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: Anarchy. Man, I almost wore my crocs to the office today.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: But I absolutely should and have no problem doing it.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: But I just thought, no, Yeah, it's too soon.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: You gotta stop letting your kid push you around.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: Oh, they got me this. It's got a little Mario karts.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: What do you call those things? Little fidget guys on
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: it go in the holes. Yeah, there's a word for
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: you told me and I can't remember.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, we'll get.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: To it, but here's what we want you to know
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: about this design about Davidson. At this point, we might
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: think this is yet another story of a creative person
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: kind of getting the short shrift from these immoral corporate
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: folks taking credit for the work she did and so on.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: But luckily that's not exactly the case here. Davidson, who
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: was alive today, maintains that she doesn't know how long
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: she worked on the swoosh.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: But she doesn't know how much she build them, right, yes,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: how much did she build them? I think it was
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: like for seventeen and a half hours at the rate
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: of two dollars an hour, which is thirty five bucks
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: that she got in the check for this job, which
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: I did inflation calculator.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: It so we can do a boop and a dude.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: In today dollars, it's two hundred and sixty seven dollars
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: and thirty six days, which still is like low for
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: a design job. Usually a designer today, for that kind
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: of work would probably be getting fifty to one hundred
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: dollars an hour on a like freelance like low end kind.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Of like help make you know, blue ribbon trophies. The
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: mom and pop.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, this, unfortunately is a pretty common story. It
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: often happens in the world. But Davidson's tail ends a
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: little bit differently. She didn't profit immediately from her work
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: designing this thing, which she did do on her own.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: But eventually the company came back and gave her a
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: proper thank thank you. They threw a huge party in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: her honor, and I think they gave her stock.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: They did worth upwards of a million bucks, which is cool.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: What does eventually mean though, By the way, are we
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: talking like the twenty fifth anniversary of the swoosh or
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: like a couple of years later.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question, man, did she for instance, like,
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: did she write a letter? Did someone? Did someone get
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: mad at them? It was nineteen eighty three, so it
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: like ten years.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing. I don't want to deraalize too much, Ben, but.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like, is it immoral to pay somebody the going rate.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: For a thing then becomes larger than life. You don't
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: know that it's going to become larger than life. It didn't.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say they took advantage of her at all.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: I don't think so, because you know, again, they're scrappy
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: at the point they were they were working together there,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: they were more casual, you know what I mean, and.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: The company just wasn't yet what it had becomes. And
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: you could argue it wasn't like the swoosh all of
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: a sudden made Nike what it is. Nike made Nike
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: what it is, and they hustled and they got huge.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: And another aspect of this is, you know, you see
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: this in so many industries, what like podcasting right when
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: we make a lot of shows, you know, and it
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: could be tough to tell which ones work out, and
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: it's continually mystifying. That's why for a lot of agreements
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: in the creative world, you'll see people bake in stuff like, hey,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: if my little jingle turns out to be a big
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: deal for Dell, I would like some more money.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I would think that a lot of companies would really
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: bulk at that. Though.
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: It is a very common negotiation tactic to give up
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: as few like points on the back end of things
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: as possible, because then you're tied to somebody forever. It
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: was treated like a work for hire situation. Then it's
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: like we paid you your rate, you delivered us the
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: product date to you, good day to you, go with God.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: But it's really cool. It worked out great, kind of
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: like that what's the Flaming Hot Cheetos guy? It was
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: it was like he was a custodian. Here's a movie
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: chet called Flaming Hot Cheetos. It's about the story stick
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: with what works that?
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Did they hook him up?
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a happy ending there too, if
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there totally was. And those stories are inspiring.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: I think it's cool to hear it. Uh. They also
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: this is strange flex Phil Knight also gives Carolyn Davidson
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: a gold and diamond ring engraved with the Nike swoosh.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Wait, like as a marriage proposal? What are we talking? Unclear?
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: I think it was just hey, this swoosh is good.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Remember the swoosh from earlier?
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to jump in here.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: Actually, I don't think it's I don't think at this
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: as weird as maybe y'all do, because gold and diamond
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: rings are pretty common for when you win a championship.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: So like with the Atlanta Braids won the world here
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: years ago, everyone above a certain level got a world
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: through his ring.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Max with the facts that sneaking in.
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: And peacefull in Loh, it's just for you right now.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: The boom Also, Uh, one of the other weird things
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: he gave her chocolate swooshes. Anyway, I think this can
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: now it's insensual. Now now it's just I think he's
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: b nice.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Half a dozen oysters. Well yeah, creepy foot.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Massage, play some shod you know how it goes is
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: amazing and uh, before we move on, Max, well we've gotcha.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: You have a bit of a Nike connection yourself.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Right Yeah.
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: So before I worked here at iHeart Our Heart Media
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: making podcasts, I was an independent podcast maker myself and
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: my original co host, this guy named Kevin Cool. Literally
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: his name, his last name is k u h l.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: This guy is so cool that he donated his kidney
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: to his coworker at Nike. Yeah, he works. He lives
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: actually in Hillsboro, Oregon, works on the Nike Man campus. So, uh,
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: he does not like that I wear I'll say that
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: or Adidas. I We're gonna go with Adidas Potus.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: So if it's the combination of Audi and does right,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: then it could be ADIDASIZ because it's plurals to things.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: But it doesn't sound right, I just say, do you
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: wear Adidas? I wear Adidas. It's like when you're talking
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: about a brand, I don't think you have to pluralize.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like pants. It's like, you know,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I always it always gives me a slight chuckle when
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I'm talking to a very aesthetically centered fashionist to person
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: and they're like, Ooh, I love this new fault pant.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I love a pant. It's a singular pant. It's just
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: the one leg last thing.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, being pedantic here, if it's a company that makes
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: multiple things, you wouldn't say Adidas. You wouldn't pluralize it.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: You say, I'm wearing shoes by Adidas. I'm wearing a
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: hoodie by Adidas. I'm wearing my Nike tennis shoes. But
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: you also think it's say Nikes.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: See, I don't even know.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: I think I gotta tell you, guys, I suspect English
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: may not be the best language.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Well you think so.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I've been studying it for quite some time, and I
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: have at best a rudimentary grasp how lot of rellly.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Nillinginess to the English language, No question about that. I
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: had one little personal anecdotis want to mention. I actually
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: worked with Nike for a little bit developing a podcast
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: about Jordan's Air Jordan's and like that whole story of
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Nike and just how they figured out how to like
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: get in on that branding and like you know, associate
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: themselves with this like up and coming superstar. They were
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: like glued to Jordan from like the earliest days and
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: then they got him wearing his own signature red shoes,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: all of that stuff. There's a really cool documentary about it.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: So I learned a lot about this stuff that I
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have normally learned. So I actually propose that maybe
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: we could even cover a larger, you know, part of
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: the Nike story because it really is pretty interesting. And
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: there's also you know, the connection to skateboard culture, graffiti culture,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: like hip hop and all that stuff. I think, you know,
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: ridiculous and that it's ridiculously interesting.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, I agree. I think we're unanimous in this. The
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: motion carries uh maybe we can get ridiculous history branded
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: sneakers one day dream big right, talk to.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: My buddy Kevin. Actually, one of the best things about
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: no one's the one who works at Nike. You can
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: go into the Nike store and everything is forty percent off.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: It is all like basically at cost maybe not at
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: costs per se, but like it's like four percent offs.
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: You can go there, like Okay, I'm gonna grab all
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: these really nice shoes and they're like fifty bucks snip.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Can you just tell them, you know? Kevin? Yeah, well no,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: you need to have a pass on your phone. It
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: is intense and like, yeah.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: And Kevin, be cool. I bet you never heard that before.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: I'll take some air Force one.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: You can have him. He was also in an episode
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: of Ephemeral Too nice.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Wait our air Force one's Nike are okay good?
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Those are the Jordan's. They're a style of right exactly. Duh.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: So this woosh first comes out on something called the Nike.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: It's one of the first shoes the brand ever makes
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: with their new name.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: Is it in fact a cleat or is ity just
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: being clever because it's capitalized so it's like the name
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: of the shoe. But I think of a cleat as
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: like golf shoes with the pointy things on the soccer
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: shoes soccer shoes or like, but some of them are
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: point to heer and sharper than others. Some of them
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: are just rubberized, and I would imagine that's probably more
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: we're looking at, because we actually also have another type
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: of shoe called the Nike Waffle Racer Love that supposedly
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: was the original prototype, was made by literally using a
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: waffle iron to make the treads on the bottom of
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: the shoe.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it follows what Bill and Phil wanted to
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: do in the very beginning. They wanted to make running
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: shoes that were much lighter, that wouldn't weigh you down
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: when you were running track and field. And the Nike
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: waffle Racer is still around. It's shoe.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I have a pair of these, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: And you know, the cool thing about Nike too, is
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: like they they're always doing cool throwback kind of thing.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and like they've got such a history.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: It's like Nintendo, you know, they've got this pantheon of characters,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: but in this case, it's like, you know, designs from
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: throughout the ages. And we talked about this a little
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: bit because of course talking about design in terms of
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: the logo, but like the swoosh also just integrates really
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: well into the shoe design, you know, and they have
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: like different like color ways and stuff and like the
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: swish will be yellow and the shoe will be blue
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: and all of that stuff. And like I think I'm
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: I have actually become not a sneakerhead, Like I don't
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: have like a closet.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Full of them, but I'm into the culture.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: I think it's really really cool and I appreciate the
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: aesthetics and the design that goes into it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: And Atlanta is a great city for this.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: I love this stuff too, man. And the US public
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: loved Nikes when they came out and they there was
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: so there's this big thing in sneakerhead culture where the
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: exclusive drops are huge, huge deal.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: People buy the shoes as investments or flip them. Yeah,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: and they flip them for sure. And they also made
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: they go through two extraordinary lengths to be able to
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: get an exclusive shoe of some sort.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I just said shoe instead of shoes to our earlier point. Anyway,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: So this is an old pattern for Nike. Consumers saw
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: this at the US Track and Field Olympic Trials in
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Oregon and they couldn't get their hands on the shoe
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy three, and everybody wanted one at the time.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: You could get the Nike Cortes which came out around
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the Mexico Olympics in nineteen seventy two, that also had
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: the swoosh on it. Eventually, like you said, they link
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: up with athletes. That's kind of a story for another day.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: They also land on some color schemes. Warm red became
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the color choice for the official logo. And you know,
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: now you often see a black swoosh, but it was
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: meant to It was meant to hit your brain and
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: stay in your brain. And a lot of graphic design
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: professess have studied this right in depth.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Uh well, it's like got a golden ratio ness of
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: it all nice, you know. And if you think about
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: like some of the most I guess sticky brands you
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: know over the years, oftentimes they have these concentric circles
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: when you break them down, like the like the Apple logo,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: it's all concentric circles if you really like plot it
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: with like a compass or whatever. And I'm sure this
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: is part of a school of design that I'm not
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: aware of that was like being taught.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: You know, I did not know this is a job,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: but it is a dream job for someone in max
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: This might be a dream job for you, man, we
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: want to introduce you to Todd Radom Radom Radom R
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: A d O M. He his job is to design
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: sports logos sports related logos. He's a veteran, that's all
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: he does. I didn't know that could be someone's career.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: That's pretty wild.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: I'll say that's cool on all of guys. I have
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: found the job that I want and it involved being.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: With you too. That's really sweet. Max. We love you too.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll do shout out to all the cool teachers
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: playing this for your students.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: So I think I'm probably gonna have to beep that way.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Well yeah, okay, but you can also you could keep
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: my disgusted astonishment if you wish.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Now people will just have to use their imagination. As
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: to what you said.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: It does feel like an abochal roller coaster when you.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Edit it that way. Awesome.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: God, I want to buy some shoes I'm looking at
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: I'm just like Google and images of Nikes and now
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, these are so cool looking.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: There's a Nike store in the building where we used
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: to work. That's why the city market. So it's a good.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: One and they often, you know, get these drops that
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: we're talking about. There's also you mentioned the whole like
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: sneaker culture and flipping and all that. There's a really
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: neat place in Los Angeles and on Melrose called Flight Club,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: which first of all, is an awesome name, and that's
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: the kind of place where you go to see like classics,
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: you know, and just you know, the Jordan's and whatever,
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: and it's just like, you know, they're one thousand dollars sometimes,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: you know, for these like vintage pairs or these specialty
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: limited edition things because the genius and a lot of
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: brands do this, like Supreme and you know whatever is scarcity.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: They do these.
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: Limited edition drops or collaborations with artists and they only
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: make so many. There's like a pair of Jordan's that's
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: like Ben and Jerry's theme that I think are some
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: of the most sought after ones that you can find.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, That's what we should wrap up
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: on because full disclosure, folks, we wanted to explore some
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: more sneaker logos, but I think we all three of
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: us got so into the Nike story that we're gonna
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: keep this one just with Nike. I've got some fun
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: anecdotes about rebop pumps. We'll save that for an episode
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: in the future, but for now, Noah's thinking a good
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: way for us to end is to look at a
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: ridiculous list of the most expensive nikes in the world.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna ruin it. Number one is the solid
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: gold o Vo Air Jordan two million dollars Loise and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: the shoes are kind of useless, and.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: The shoe that I was just talking about, by the way, Ben,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: the Ben and Jerry's are called dunks, and they're kind
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: of cowprints on the side. They sort of like have
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: the blue sky and grass kind of logo that you
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: see on a Ben and Jerry's thing, and then the
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: yellow swoosh. I'm seeing pairs upwards of eighteen hundred dollars
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: because apparently they were just done in such limited supply.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Here's the thing, though, I think that counts a
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: little better toward our stats than the solid gold O
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Vo Air Jordan. As any hip hop fan knows. When
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: you heard me say O v oh, that is Drake.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, Drake spent two million dollars to get
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: these custom Air Jordans, and the shoes are made of
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: solid gold. She's so you can't really do anything with
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: them except like look at them and say, oh, look
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: upon my sneaks. You mighty.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Do you remember when Nike came out with the like
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: back to the Future to Nike shoe that was like
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: the ones where he they automatically laced up like sh
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: you know, he puts them on. They kind of looked
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: like ski boots. But they did briefly have a very
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: limited drop of these Nike you know, Back to the
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Future shoes. And once again there's a company that got
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: in on the ground floor of pop culture to the
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: point where they get to put out a version of
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: their shoe that was in a movie.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean like.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: Truly I think also like Ripley and Aliens was wearing Nikes. Sure,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: you know, like they just they've they've been in it
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: from the start. And then we're masters of cross promo
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: and brand Yes.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Really good to product placement, incredibly imagined to.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: And by the way, those Back to the Future shoes
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: now go for about fifty eight thousand dollars.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, we want to continue exploring the story of not
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: just the Nikes, but of course Adidas. We as we've
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: been discussing for a while, so we'll get back with that,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: but for now, thank you, of course to missus Davidson
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: for designing a logo that changed the world, and thanks
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: to our research associate Jeff Bartlett. Thanks to our superproducer
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: mister Max Too Fast Williams.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Huge staks to Alex Williams as well, Yes they are.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Related, who composed our theme, Christoph Rasciotas here in spirit
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: he's Jeff Coats roaming the wide world of podcasts wherever
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: she may be.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a big, big thanks to Gabe Lusier, and of
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: course thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the quizz I wonder
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: what kind of what kind of tennis shoes?
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: Jesus Louis Vaton Nike Airs three hundred and fifty two
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: thousand dollars.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: The Nike Max was, oh no, the Waffle Racing Flat
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Moon shoe four hundred and thirty seven thousand, five hundred dollars.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Unbelievable. We'll see you next time, folks.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.