Latest / The Fourcast / Should Israel be held accountable for deaths of Gazans queuing for aid?

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Should Israel be held accountable for deaths of Gazans queuing for aid? · The Fourcast

0:00
Did the IDF make mistakes and doesn't make mistakes?
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100% every army makes mistakes. Definitely during war.
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But don't you look at this and go, this is a disaster.
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You know, in a week we've had more than 50 people killed who
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are desperate and starving and trying to get food.
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Israel, as the occupying power in the Gaza Strip, has a legal
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obligation to provide humanitarian aid to Palestinians
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in Gaza. For the Gaza population, this is
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a case of survival. Hello and welcome to the
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Forecast. I'm Krishnan Guru Murthy, and we
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are in Jerusalem today as I'm here all week for Channel 4
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News. Now there has been another
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disaster in Gaza around the delivery of aid by this new Gaza
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Humanitarian Foundation, which is backed by the Americans and
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Israel. 27 people are reported dead, and not just by the Gaza
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Health Ministry. The International Committee of
0:56
the Red Cross are saying that their people have been treating
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that kind of number of people for gunshot wounds.
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In fact, more than 100 people are reported injured and this is
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the second such incident in a few days.
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The first one over the weekend was largely denied by the
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Israeli Defence Force and the American governments who said
1:17
these reports were false. But today, the IDF have said
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they are looking into these reports and the Israeli media is
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carrying Israeli sources saying that the Palestinians on the
1:28
ground deviated from the designated route going into the
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aid distribution centre. And that is why this descended
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into some chaos. So.
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So why is this happening and where's it going?
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With me here, the editor in chief of the Jerusalem Post,
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Zvika Klein, and from the Human Rights Watch organization, a
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Palestinian lawyer, Melina Ansari.
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Thank you very much indeed for joining us both.
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Thank you, Zvika. Why is this happening again?
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I mean, doesn't this show that the attempt to deliver aid this
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way just isn't working? First of all, good morning.
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I think, I think first of all, we're in the midst of this of
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this situation and I assume in the next few hours we'll know
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exactly what happened. Is that a proof to the fact that
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this type of aid delivery is not successful?
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I wouldn't necessarily agree to that.
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First of all, you mentioned the previous attack where
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Palestinians were killed near right near the the foundation
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where? 30 on.
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Sunday. Yeah, exactly, Exactly.
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So I mean, the the foundation itself actually denied the
2:39
reports that it was the IDF that did these shootings and there
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was different footage showing otherwise.
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So I think really at the end of the day, the focus should be on
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Hamas being a terrorist organization, not agreeing,
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just, you know, returning to the mediator saying we will not
2:54
agree to a ceasefire and this is a war now.
2:58
Did the IDF make mistakes and doesn't make mistakes?
3:01
100%, every army makes mistakes. Definitely during war,
3:05
definitely during a very long war, even more than that.
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And I think as a country, we have, you know, our own
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mechanisms of, of self criticism and even the public itself and
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the media will criticize the IDF when it thinks it's needed.
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So I wouldn't. Totally been critical.
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We've been, yeah, 100%. We've been critical of the of
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the IDF and again, it's not fun, but I think it's important.
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When we live in a democracy and Gaza is not a democracy, it's a
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very different situation. If the IDF indeed did kill
3:37
civilians, that's a problem and it should be dealt with in a
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very serious way. But, but, but don't you, you
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know, as a, as a journalist, look at this and go, this is a
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disaster. You know, in a week we've had
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more than 50 people killed who are desperate and starving and
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trying to get food. Yes, it's a difficult situation
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and yes, people are starving, right?
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But the question whose fault is it that they are starving?
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Is it Israel or is it Hamas? Is it a combination?
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No, but that's why I'm saying yes, they are starving.
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Should I? You know what I'm saying?
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And and, and, and, and by the way, I agreed to this interview
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because it's a long form deep discussion.
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OK, so my sound bite won't be yes, there are children, you
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know, whatever without the butt. But really there is a but.
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And the question is who is to blame for this?
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Because, you know, throughout the more than a year and a half,
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there have been date, there have been periods of time, many
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periods of time that aid was, was was was, you know, inserted
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into Gaza, but it didn't reach the citizens.
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It didn't reach the civilians. Melina I mean, what what we've
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seen is sort of the militarization of the aid
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process and it's it's clearly not working right now.
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Yeah, that's a good point. And and to start off, this is
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definitely not a shock when you have ex military personnels in
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charge of humanitarian aid in an area that's so tiny like the
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Gaza Strip providing desperately need aid to over 2 million in
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the civilian population in in the Gaza Strip.
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It's a question to how come did we allow this Gaza humanitarian
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foundation take on this humanitarian aid distribution
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when even United Nations and several entities that their
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mandate and their job is to provide humanitarian aid clearly
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notified and rang the alarm bells from the beginning, saying
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this will not be impartial. This will not be humanitarian
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aid properly being distributed and this will not bear in mind
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the dignity of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, who for over 600
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days have been living in brutal conditions.
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And these brutal conditions were exaggerated after the Israeli
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forces for three months, three months, banned completely all
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the entry of humanitarian aid inside the Gaza Strip.
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We're talking about food, water, medicine.
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Even after the lift of the three months humanitarian aid on the
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Gaza Strip, Israeli forces restricted what type of food
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goes into the Gaza Strip and what type of medicines.
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So if the United Nations is saying such systems for aid
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distributions are faulty by nature, how did we allow it to
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happen? This is not a surprise, but let
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me just a really important points to keep in mind for the
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Gaza population. This is a case of survival.
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We're not talking about war for the population that's living
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this brutality. We're talking about survival.
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Human Rights Watch documented how Israeli forces deliberately
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and intentionally denied Palestinians in the Gaza Strip
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access to water. As simple as that.
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We're not talking how exactly how 4 points they cut off water
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and then electricity and electricity up until now for
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more than 600 days has been cut. They cut off fuel as well.
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They destroyed water and sanitation facilities that were
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under their immediate and full control.
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In the Rafah reservoir, for example.
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Rafah was completely under control of Israeli forces were
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no confrontation, no allegations of Palestinian armed groups in
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that area and Israeli soldiers detonated while wiring the whole
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Rafah reservoir with Ballistics and bombs and posted it on
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social media. Again, this water reservoir in
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Rafah fed almost half of the population in the southern area.
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So not only did they destroy water and sanitation facilities
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like water pipelines and desalina tion plants, but they
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also attacked workers who were preparing these pipelines and
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water and sanitation facilities. But really, what to what to
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understand why I wanted to focus on water because it's as basic
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as that, as basic as a human dignity to have access to water.
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Palestinians in the Gaza Strip do not meet the adequate
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threshold by the World Health Organization to to the amount of
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water per day per person. And this has led to thousands
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killed due to malnutrition, dehydration and other illnesses
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and diseases. You know, there's hepatitis A,
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water borne diseases. We spoke to healthcare workers
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on the grounds, whether American or internationals who served in
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Gaza and told us about witnessing day by day children
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dying from not the bombardment but from the inabilities of the
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healthcare system that was disseminated by Israeli forces
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throughout these 600 days. I.
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Mean the trouble is that I mean Israel doesn't regard are the UN
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as either impartial or an honest broker in in that and that in a
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way it's a separate conversation.
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Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't bring them as a as an
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example. But is, you know, from Israel's
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point of view, they're saying, look, you know, we don't trust
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the people who were doing it, so we're going to try and do it
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ourselves. And these are, you know, the
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problems that you have in setting up a new system.
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Yeah, but this is also the problem we have with the
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international community and it's, you know, blind impunity
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given to Israeli forces. You know, Israel says there's
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allegations of looting and blah, blah, blah.
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And then we all bow down to what Israel says and look for facts
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when there's no facts on the ground.
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I as Human Rights Watch, we believe in the United Nations
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because the United Nations works across the world impartially all
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across, you know, there's no pinpointing to 1 certain
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condition or 1 certain area. They do cover the situation
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worldwide and they worked in Syria during ISIS, they worked
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everywhere and they have not faced this problem except for
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dealing with Israel. And but just let me a really
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important two points that I really have to clarify for the
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Gaza Strip. The situation did not is not
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like the current 600 days. Gaza has been under an open air
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prison controlled by Israel by the land and sea and air Israel
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as the occupying power in the Gaza Strip has a legal
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obligation to provide humanitarian aid to Palestinians
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in Gaza. It's not a privilege they give
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to Palestinians in Gaza, and Palestinians should not be, you
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know, in a way, thankful and privileged to have that aid.
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Israel wants to occupy the Gaza Strip.
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They have obligations that they need to abide by.
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And one of them is providing humanitarian aid and not
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humanitarian aid in a sense, with ex military personnels
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telling people to walk miles and kilometers when their bodies
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have been surviving brutal hostilities.
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It's about aid reaching people across the Gaza Strip.
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You know, the advantage of the United Nations and humanitarian
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organizations who are mandated to do this job is they know how
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to do it. We speak to them.
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They have. Many organizations actually
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stepped out of Gaza because they wouldn't.
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They wouldn't. They wouldn't agree to
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distribute food in Gaza because of the.
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Situation exactly because of Israeli hostilities and banning
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Israeli Israelis banning and denying aid coming in and
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accessing groups. Human rights we have.
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Documented. Have you how?
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How Israeli forces attacked areas where MSF, where UNICEF,
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where Honorwa has warehouses and staff.
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We did investigation into 6 cases, you know, from Anera,
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from the World Centre Kitchen, where Israeli forces put
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humanitarian aids at risk. And many humanitarian aid actors
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we spoke to in the larish, in Egypt, in Gaza, in the West
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Bank, have clearly said Israel's deconfliction process is faulty.
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It does not provide them any protection, so they cannot not
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work under Israel's brutality and in protection.
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Have you at all, as a human rights organization, looked into
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the human rights situation of Israeli civilians were held
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underground in Gaza without food, without water?
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Yes. So usually my questions come
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from the presenter or the journalist, but we'll have it
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along. Our main cause during these
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hostilities is for the immediate and unconditional release of
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Israeli and international hostages unlawfully held in the
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Gaza Strip for also more than 600 days.
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But this game of bargaining chips of did you, did you
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document this? Did you document that human
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rights war? We documented war crimes and
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crimes against humanity perpetrated by Palestinian armed
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groups on October 7th that included willful killing,
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murder, hostage taking, destruction of civilian property
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in the Gaza Strip. We have been documenting on all
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sectors the conditions for civilians in Israel and
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Palestine. This does not negate or is an
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argument to refute that 2 million people in the Gaza Strip
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need food and water. OK, Mr. Speaker, I mean.
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But you notice the word Hamas did not appear in her in her.
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Words, I said Palestinian armed groups.
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Hamas is a political party governing the Gaza Strip.
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I mean. It's a terrorist organization.
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To you OK. It's a.
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Political. Movement to most Western
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countries around the world. As well as Israel could be
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considered also an unlawful state to many countries around
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the world. But we are.
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Does not help. We are.
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My goal as a human rights activist, as a lawyer, is to
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look at the people, not to defend states, not to defend
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armed group, but to defend the people, to seek justice and
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accountability for people in Israel and Palestine who have
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been ongoing for years. How do you feel as, as a human
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rights activist about where the human rights argument has gone
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and what the effect is? Because on the one hand, you,
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you, you have a little bit of an increase in the rhetoric from
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international leaders. Not very much is actually
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changing in terms of hard policy.
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You know, they're still supporting Israel.
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They're still exporting weapons. They're still doing all of those
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sorts of things. I mean, you know, is, is the, is
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it getting harder to make people care about human life?
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Yeah, I'll answer this by first acknowledging that, you know,
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and I've heard that now just right here, the dehumanisation
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rhetoric against Palestinians, the the language or sentences,
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as long as long as hostages are not released, people will not
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just be respectful. That if, if hostages are not
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released, Palestinians in Gaza will continue to live as a case
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of survival. This is talk that is politics.
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Unfortunately. This is not human rights.
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When we say people are not bargaining ships, it doesn't
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mean you need to deal with human lives and human rights.
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But I'll tell you this and, and it's very clear, the
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international community, the international institutions have
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been, you know, challenged Nowadays in the current
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hostilities, there is a litmus test that Gaza is imposing on
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the international community. But, you know, some
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institutions, some states are still shying away with their
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silence, with their risk of complicity in war crimes and
15:16
crimes against humanity. But, you know, I try to focus on
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the institutions who have risen to this challenge.
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For example, the International Criminal Court issuing arrest
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warrants against Israeli fugitives, you know, the Prime
15:31
Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the former
15:34
defence minister, you are gallants for war crimes, crimes
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against humanity, including using starvation as a weapon of
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war and evidence that could lead to extermination.
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You know, so these are the the institutions that are the
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problem with. That is, is, is that, you know,
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these institutions exist really by consensus.
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And if if half the world or a chunk of the world just ceases
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to respect them or acknowledge them or says they are biased or
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they are, you know, they're driving an agenda, then the
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actions of these, you know, international institutions don't
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have the the purchase and the moral authority that you want
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them to have. Yeah, I think that's the problem
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we're in. You're looking at it in a
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different perspective and way, which I respect that.
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But the way I look at it is the problem is not the credibility
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of the ICC. The problem is the double
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standards of states because all European countries when the ICC
16:30
issued arrest warrants against Putin were very quick to act.
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We're very quick to say Putin is not allowed on our territory
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because as law abiding international law states, we
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will follow up on the ICC, you know, obligations, you know,
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when EU specifically, for example, and the UK, let me say
16:49
actually every state has said settlements are a barrier to
16:52
peace and a barrier to, you know, the actualization of peace
16:56
and security for both Palestinians and Israelis in the
17:00
region. But none of them had actually
17:02
banned trade with illegal Israeli settlements.
17:05
None have actually imposed, you know, clear stand against the
17:09
expansion, the crazy expansion of settlements and outposts,
17:13
which by the way, outposts are illegal under Israeli law
17:16
itself. So Israel is violating its own
17:19
law and violating international law and expecting all the
17:23
country to bow down to, you know, that's.
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What I mean, do you, do you feel you're sort of screaming into a
17:27
void? As this goes on, sometimes yes,
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but nowadays I clearly say no. You know the statement from the
17:33
UK, Canada and France is very strong.
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They stood up against statements from ministers like Smothrich,
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ministers who are saying we will displace all Gaza into a tiny
17:45
area and then let third states volunteer military take them in.
17:50
You know, so states like the UK, Canada and France standing up
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against these statements is something, is this something we
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would hold on to? How do you think this story
18:00
today? Of the humanitarian.
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Of Palestinians being shot trying to get food.
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How is that received in Israel? You know, is it, you know, is it
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sort of blink and turn the page or is it something that people
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are going this is this is bad? For so it's interesting this is
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just an experiment that I did on the way here, you know,
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listening to the was it 11:00 news broadcast, It wasn't the
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top of the news, right and this is I think a few hours before
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like started evolving the reports.
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I don't know exactly what time of day we're talking about.
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So it was interesting. So, so yes, it is on the
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margins. That said, if it is proven even
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by our own people or by, I don't know anything else that that the
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IDF did in fact kill civilians, there will be criticism from
18:54
within Israeli society, Israeli politics, Israeli media,
18:58
because. And again, you know, I think
19:01
right, immediately after October seven, things were a bit
19:03
different. Do people, do people not view
19:05
the IDF with suspicion now that when they, when they deny
19:07
things, because, you know, there's a regular pattern,
19:10
something happens, the IDF denies it.
19:12
Then a few days later they have to say, yes, we've looked into
19:14
it, something happened, somebody made a mistake.
19:16
We saw that with the ambulance drivers, you know, which was
19:19
denied. And then, you know, a few days
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later the IDF says, no, actually, you know, the
19:24
commander in charge made a mistake, he's being moved.
19:28
So, you know, as a, as a journalist as well.
19:30
I mean, do you not look at the instant IDF response to anything
19:34
and go, well that's probably not true.
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There's the Citizen and there's a journalist, OK, Journalists,
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obviously, you know, you want a bit more of information and you
19:43
want fact, right? Give me an aerial shot.
19:45
Give me give me proof, OK? But most Israeli citizens, and I
19:52
think this is a sociological thing that most people can't
19:54
understand, are part of this mechanism of the IDF.
19:59
Because I'm 43 years old, people who are my neighbors who are.
20:04
Older and younger than me including 50 year old have
20:06
either volunteered or been drafted in the IDF and they have
20:10
many other professions. They are not warriors in their
20:14
profession but when they were 18 years old they were in the army
20:18
and still doing their reserve duty.
20:21
So because of the amount of people affected, people being
20:25
killed from their family post trauma, children that that saw,
20:30
you know, saw their parents being slaughtered in front of
20:33
their eyes. And and this all been
20:35
broadcasted on, on, on, on on national television, brings us
20:40
to the point that Israelis trust the IDF.
20:43
You know, there are different, there are different surveys that
20:46
go up and down immediately after October 7th, by the way, it was
20:49
lower because you know, Israel, the strong country that's very
20:52
proud of itself and very big ego, too big of an ego by the
20:55
way, which probably developed part of October 7th, suddenly
21:01
was not as strong as as it thought it was.
21:03
And so and there there was no, it seems still public demand for
21:08
to look at today. So reports as we speak, I think
21:11
you know between 10 and 20 people are reported killed from
21:15
bombing and over 20 people are reported killed by shooting near
21:20
this aid distribution. We're talking about maybe 35
21:24
dead right now and it'll be more by tonight.
21:27
That is obviously many more than us, you know, the living Israeli
21:33
hostages in one day, you know, is that not hitting home here?
21:37
And people saying this is this is insane carrying this.
21:42
On yes, it's insane, it's terrible, and I know it's very
21:45
surprising to people, but Jews and Israelis don't, you know,
21:50
the, the death is, is not a holy thing to us.
21:55
And On the contrary, life is, it's what is holy for us as a
21:58
people and as a nation. I think we're sucked into this
22:03
loop of just, you know, and I think everyone by the way, I
22:07
think 80% of Israelis would agree to a full hostage deal,
22:13
ceasefire, release, whatever, whether without or with the, you
22:17
know, you know, relations, diplomatic relations with Saudi
22:21
Arabia, etcetera, which is part or not part it's.
22:23
True. And what we see in weekly
22:25
protests in Tel Aviv, you know, thousands of Israelis marching
22:29
the streets against Netanyahu's government, calling for a
22:32
ceasefire, an exchange deal that will definitely secure the
22:36
release of hostages inside Gaza. They don't totally represent I'm
22:40
saying. There is some you know there is
22:43
some movement which which is noticeable and I want there is
22:46
a. Movement because people just
22:48
just want it to be over. Do you agree with Vikas
22:50
assessment of Israeli society and Israeli politics or are you
22:53
more hopeful? I, I would say, you know, I'm,
22:56
I'm a well, some of it is. Hopeful, because if 80% want it,
22:59
you know it's not. Whatever I, I would say, you
23:01
know, and this is something, you know, living in Jerusalem, being
23:04
born and raised in Jerusalem, I try so much to focus on is the
23:09
people, you know, not the governments, not the
23:11
representatives, the people. And, you know, when I see
23:15
Israeli teens refusing to go to the mandatory army and saying
23:19
I'd rather be in detention but go to Gaza and join this, I see,
23:24
I do see hope I will not say no. You know, these, these
23:27
situations that are happening in the Israeli society are very
23:30
much visible. The issue is how is the Israeli
23:35
society still allowing Netanyahu's coalition to take
23:39
Israel in a place none of us wanted?
23:41
And, you know, like the corruption cases against
23:44
Netanyahu while also fighting a, let's say, war.
23:48
He definitely does not know what the military advantage is or the
23:52
outcome is or the end goal is. And this is the problem, you
23:56
know. We agree on that.
23:57
It's since the beginning of 2023, Israel had the most right
24:02
wing and I'd say racist, this government in the history of
24:06
Israel. But by the way, in this
24:08
government is the same government and it's more extreme
24:10
now, right? It's the same people, but it's
24:12
more extreme because of the situation.
24:14
And by the way, when you have a president like Trump saying
24:17
sorry for cutting in a few words, but if President Trump
24:19
says it's going to be the Riviera and we're going to have
24:22
them go somewhere else, then these elected Israeli officials
24:27
will allow themselves to say it in a more secure, less hesitant
24:32
or hinted way. Yeah, but but but again, yeah,
24:35
see. So definitely the there's so
24:38
much impunity given to Israel. It it's soul sucking, really.
24:41
It hurts. And we're only now talking about
24:44
the situation in the in in the Gaza Strip.
24:46
We're not even looking at the West Bank where settler violence
24:50
has skyrocketed to a certain point displacement.
24:54
Israeli military operations targeting refugee camps in the
24:58
northern West Bank were nourishamps.
25:00
Jeanine refugee camp at Tulkaram have been completely emptied
25:03
out. Terrorist groups or individuals
25:08
in the West? The whole camp needs to be
25:10
emptied out in order for Israel to you know, we've seen Israel
25:14
go against Nasrallah with pager attacks with what not they are
25:19
completely capable of doing attacks and taking military
25:22
advantages without the civilian collateral damage.
25:26
We're. Talking.
25:28
The Palestinian Authority police was not able to do it so.
25:30
Because the West Bank is under occupation, whatever authority,
25:33
the Palestinian Authority. I'm dying to.
25:35
Hear you. Dismantling apartheid,
25:38
dismantling the system of apartheid, removing Israeli
25:42
settlements from the West Bank, evacuating Israeli settlers from
25:46
the West Bank. This is not my talk.
25:48
This is, by the way, the ICJ advisory opinion that said.
25:51
That then what will happen? There needs to be elections.
25:54
There needs to be the People need to decide who they want,
25:57
what they want to do. It's not on you or you.
26:00
Your your question suggests you you don't really believe there's
26:03
a solution. I I believe there are certain
26:07
solutions. I've actually written a bunch of
26:09
of columns looking for a solution because I, I think the
26:11
classic 2 state solution not feasible within, you know, I
26:15
don't know if you would agree to that or not, but it is in in two
26:19
2025. Not OK, exactly the way she's
26:22
talking about it will not happen.
26:25
And then secondly, A1 state solution is not something that I
26:28
support. There's different types of one
26:29
state solutions. I don't I don't support those
26:32
either. So you know, I'm on this journey
26:35
looking for for. A solution?
26:37
You can't see a solution right? Now there are interesting
26:40
different solutions, but I there's.
26:42
Not like what? You know, there's different
26:44
solutions, for instance, there are different Palestinian
26:48
villages or whatever who would actually wants to either be part
26:52
of Israel or join the Abraham Accords, for instance.
26:55
That's one little, but it's a little example, right?
26:57
It's not a broader example. You know, the certain situation
27:01
of, of I mean, the Gaza Strip is, is a really is a, really a
27:04
nightmare and relocation, you know, as as recommended by the
27:08
American government is, is and should be an option.
27:11
Relocation of Palestinians in Gaza to where?
27:15
Just like we did, yeah. OK, this is a call of ethnic
27:18
cleansing and forced displacement.
27:20
I just want to acknowledge that we understand that whoever calls
27:23
for the relocation of people in Gaza are calling clearly for the
27:28
forced displacement of will They have the right to return to Gaza
27:31
and their homelands in Israel proper that they were fled
27:35
fleeting from and forced out of in 1948.
27:38
Because this is also a right enshrined for Palestinian
27:41
refugees. So it's if, if we want to
27:43
relocate, I'd like to entertain the Bible, explore the
27:47
entertainment of relocating Palestinians in Gaza.
27:50
Can we send them back to Haifa to relocate?
27:53
There are. You are you really saying then
27:56
that removing the Palestinians from Gaza isn't likely?
28:00
I'm I'm reiterating different solutions, OK that were said by
28:05
both I mean. That, that, that is sort of
28:07
astonishing, isn't it, that we're in that we're in a
28:09
position now where you're you're, you're the US chief of.
28:12
The I'm finished. I'm finished.
28:14
The American president gave this as a suggestion, OK, And his
28:21
administration has, and again, I don't know what is incredible.
28:27
I know there are definitely diplomatic talks behind the
28:32
scenes about some sort of a situation like this, whether a
28:36
temporary or not. If it's helpful to know what
28:38
other leaders are saying, is it only like Trump deciding what
28:42
the world will look like? Because Egyptian leaders have
28:45
clearly said they are against any forced displacement of
28:48
Palestinians out of Gaza as well as Jordan.
28:51
Because it's not the responsibility of third
28:53
countries to take care of Palestinians when Israel has an
28:57
occupying power. They're.
28:58
Afraid of of having terrorists within their.
29:00
Land. So you're saying all the people
29:03
in Gaza are terrorists who are being relocated in Egypt?
29:07
So the people who need medical evacuation and desperately
29:10
needed medical care outside of Gaza are terrorists.
29:13
According to every single survey I have seen done both in in
29:17
Judea, Samaria, West Bank and in Gaza, OK, within the Palestinian
29:23
groups, as much as it can be done nowadays.
29:26
To the point because I really like to know what your your end
29:29
statement. Is supported What happened on
29:32
October 7th? And that makes them terrorists.
29:35
That makes them want to wipe. Out and Israelis who are
29:40
supporting the ongoing genocidal acts in Gaza are what?
29:43
They want to wipe out the state of Israel.
29:46
As it just reflect on what she says about if if you if you sort
29:51
of collectively blame the Gaza population for what happened on
29:55
October the 7th how is the. World supposed to view.
29:59
How is the world supposed to view the population of Israel
30:02
after a year and a half of killing in Gaza?
30:06
Well, I think you know, very different.
30:07
Is Israel not correctly responsible for that?
30:10
It's a very different situation. Well, it's not that.
30:12
Yes, it is. It's a very different situation.
30:15
We're talking about both, you know, as you said, militants or
30:18
whatever, how you called them, Hamas, Jihad, whatever, right,
30:22
Islamic Jihad, terrorists entering Israel as well as many
30:27
just average Gaza citizens crossing the border, taking
30:31
whatever they can take, including people, including
30:34
televisions, including. But what is the IDF?
30:36
OK, wait and. Israeli citizens, as you've
30:39
explained. Right.
30:40
But we are a democratic country. We are a democratic country as
30:45
much as can be in the Middle East.
30:46
OK, Point me into the direction of a more democratic country in
30:51
the Middle East. Yeah, OK.
30:53
I'll be happy, fine. I'd be happy, just sort of.
30:55
No. So I'm saying this is a
30:57
terrorist organization and people who want us destroyed and
31:03
will do anything they can to get us destroyed and not allow us
31:07
Israeli citizens return to the Gaza border, return anywhere.
31:11
Else. But it's interesting that you
31:12
talk about that while Israel has killed, you know, 4050 times as
31:18
many people and you are now talking seriously about the
31:23
ethnic cleansing of Gaza. I mean, that is the destruction
31:26
of. I don't want to get in touch
31:27
with you people. I think the word.
31:29
Literally the term what you're accusing the term ethnic
31:31
cleansing. The term ethnic cleansing is a
31:34
very Western term. We are here.
31:36
OK, No. Call it whatever you want, the
31:38
removal of the Palestinian, but we are in the.
31:40
From their land. We're in the Middle East.
31:42
We're not in Europe, we're not even in Russia and Ukraine.
31:44
OK, The Middle East is a very difficult neighborhood and and
31:50
therefore, and you made a face when I said we're the only
31:54
democratic country in the Middle East.
31:56
But look around you like where else?
31:58
Do you have any other? Country.
31:59
I wasn't making a face at all. No, I'm saying.
32:01
It can be debatable if it's whatever, if certain democratic
32:04
values have been whatever, right?
32:05
But I think so. Put all this together and again,
32:12
I'm reflecting to you not my opinion, but opinion of
32:16
Israelis, right? When when President Trump spoke
32:19
about that plan, the Riviera, there was a majority of Israelis
32:23
who agreed to it. OK, so that's a fact.
32:27
That's not it's not my opinion. It's not our newspapers opinion.
32:31
That's just fact. And the world has to understand
32:36
that. Now, whether a bad, good,
32:38
whatever, you know, debatable. I know what you think of it,
32:42
but, but, but, but what is the solution?
32:46
What is the solution? There's a group of, you know, a
32:49
few million, depending how you count them, people on the on the
32:52
other side, many of them, you know, innocent civilians,
32:55
whatever that will grow up to be people that want to destroy the
32:58
state of Israel. So what's, what's the solution?
33:02
Because, you know, UNRA schools, we all saw what went on there.
33:05
With all due respect to the UN, many of them were part of of
33:08
October 7th. Many of them hosted, some of
33:11
them hosted, hosted, hosted hosted a hostages in their own
33:14
homes. OK, and and and, and by that,
33:17
you know, banning their own human rights.
33:21
I'm, I'm disappointed really how this has ended because still up
33:26
until now, I haven't feeling that what I've been saying about
33:31
the dehumanization rhetoric against Palestinians is ending
33:36
up until now. You know, from this
33:38
conversation, it's disappointing to say, yes, Israelis will, will
33:43
have the right to feel sad. And you know, they've been
33:46
through atrocities on October 7th, mass atrocities.
33:50
But Palestinians who have been under genocidal acts for 600
33:55
days, it's their problem because they supported what happened on
33:59
October 7th. Are you telling me the nine
34:02
children of a Palestinian Dr. in Gaza, Dr. Najar, all nine of her
34:07
children under the age of 12, supported what happened on
34:10
October 7th? That's why we cannot feel for
34:13
these children who are dying. Are we saying that pregnant and
34:16
breastfeeding women who are not able to drink water in order to
34:21
breastfeed their children and newborns, we should not feel
34:24
empathy with them because they live in the Gaza?
34:26
This is complete and utter dehumanization.
34:30
That's unacceptable and I will not allow myself to hear
34:33
something like this. What I will end to say clearly,
34:36
you know Israel and the whole international community is
34:40
unnoticed under the Genocide Convention, the International
34:44
Court of Justice issued 3 * 3 times provisional measures
34:49
ordering Israel to lift its siege on the Gaza Strip, open on
34:54
crossing, send unfittered humanitarian aid in the Gaza
34:57
Strip at a scale that's not 500 trucks.
35:00
Before October 2023500 trucks used to enter daily.
35:04
Now we clap because 100 trucks are entering a day.
35:08
This is a drip in the ocean compared to what the needs and
35:13
survival of the population. In Gaza just signed the the the
35:18
freaking deal. You know why?
35:19
Just. Signed the.
35:20
Deal. I don't speak for half so I
35:22
don't know why they don't sign, but I will remind why.
35:25
Can you look at me when you speak to me?
35:27
Because. I'm what you want.
35:29
I'm a human being. I'm a human being.
35:31
You are. You're a beautiful human being
35:33
and I respect you. Thank you for.
35:35
And I respect you too. But I will tell you, Israel, you
35:40
know, at the end of the day is on notice under the Genocide
35:43
Convention. And I will note Honora, when we
35:47
talk about Honora, you know the thing, the difference is okay.
35:50
Allegations of some Honorwa staff members in participation
35:55
of October 7th, 2 investigations opened in Honorwa, one from the
36:00
internal oversight body in the United Nations and one from the
36:03
former Prime Minister of France, Canola, both independent
36:08
impartial external investigations said at least 99
36:14
may have participated and they were fired or killed
36:18
immediately. We're talking by the way, about
36:20
0.03% of Honor was staff from the 30,000 that work in Jordan,
36:28
Syria, Lebanon, Egypt as well all around.
36:32
So when we see Israel, you know, attacking hospitals, and we
36:35
documented Israel's occupation of four hospitals where we went
36:39
in saying we want to find the command and control centre
36:43
Palestinian armed groups had in these hospitals.
36:46
We want to see arms inside these hospitals.
36:49
But we know international law says no one can attack a
36:53
hospital. There's a civilian protection to
36:55
the hospitals unless a party is actively using hospitals to
37:01
attack. We looked into four hospitals.
37:04
We spoke to aid workers, UN workers, humanitarians on the
37:08
ground, doctors. They all said none of this
37:12
existed. We investigated.
37:14
We wanted to hear the Israelis. And none of these allegations
37:18
were true. Even when we look at strikes,
37:20
killing people in shelters, school search shelters, when
37:25
Israel publishes 12 names saying these are Hamas members, in one
37:30
case we found four people died in a previous attack when Israel
37:34
said they targeted this school to attack these people who were
37:38
already dead. You know why Human Rights Watch
37:41
does what we do. And in more than 100 countries,
37:44
you know, we are not biased towards anything.
37:48
Our documentation is legal standards.
37:50
We apply it in all cases. And when we look into what's
37:54
happening for more than 600 days, we realize that the
37:57
international community is blind.
37:59
The international community is bowing down to bullying by
38:03
Israeli authorities. We respect the security of
38:07
Israel, We understand it. But why?
38:08
But what is? Happening the conduct.
38:10
Why Israel is the will? Is is way beyond.
38:14
Security measures these are. Genocidal acts?
38:17
What's the answer? The answer is because Israel
38:20
won't commit. To withdrawal the last ceasefire
38:22
Israel broke. So that was.
38:25
America, they reached agreements.
38:28
You know, answering with America is not an answer.
38:30
America is not God, or is not the Bible, or the is.
38:34
Israel's strongest. Exactly.
38:37
So it's not, so it's biased, it will do whatever.
38:40
Israel wants to do. Exactly.
38:42
I agree with you. We're going to.
38:43
Have to wrap it up just as a final point, Zvika, I mean, this
38:51
conversation sort of operates in a very strange place where we
38:55
can't go and check anything. We can't go to those hospitals
38:59
and those schools. And do you think the Israelis
39:03
should allow the media in? It's a good question.
39:07
As a journalist, I mean, surely you.
39:08
Do I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, I think in general, yes.
39:11
But I think, you know, definitely at the beginning, it
39:14
was very complicated and very difficult for Israel because
39:18
they knew exactly what the headlines would be, right.
39:23
That said, obviously freedom of press is something that's super
39:26
important within, you know, your own your own country.
39:29
But then again, is the Gaza Strip part of Israel?
39:32
And that's a debate, like a, a legal debate, whether it is or
39:35
it isn't. But also you want to.
39:38
Well, that's. Sort of irrelevant because it's
39:39
the Israelis stopping the media going in.
39:41
You know, do I think it's an do I think Israel managed this
39:46
crisis, war or whatever you call it with the international media
39:50
in a good way, Far from it, far from it.
39:55
From day one, unfortunately, transparency many things.
40:00
And I have that criticism 100% regarding the entrance to to
40:05
Gaza. It's it's a more complicated
40:07
situation. I'm kind of torn, you know, as a
40:10
journalist and as a citizen to that situation.
40:14
I think at the end of the day, in a sense, maybe it would be
40:17
better to let them in because instead of basing, you know,
40:20
facts on. Videos on social media, we would
40:24
have someone who we at least expect to be credible to give
40:28
those facts. Again, more with the
40:29
dehumanization rhetoric, like Palestinian journalists who are
40:33
on the ground are being targeted by Israeli forces are not
40:37
trustworthy enough for the media to.
40:39
Take on to the Some of them accompany the terrorists.
40:41
On October 7th, I'm I'm just you.
40:42
Know yeah, actually they were the.
40:43
Ones showing and highlighting the rhetoric.
40:46
You know this. Is racism.
40:47
They knew there was an attack on October 7th they were part of.
40:50
All of the journalists in Gaza tell you OK.
40:52
All of them. Some of them.
40:55
But you, you want the international media lesson
40:57
anyway, don't you? Because you you accept.
40:59
It's it's not me as the Human Rights Watch, it's the ICJ
41:02
provisional measures who have ordered Israel to allow in
41:05
investigations and, and, and you know, you know, the evidence
41:08
that has been gone under the rubble.
41:11
We will need years to understand what happened inside the Gaza
41:14
Strip because there's no protection of evidence that
41:17
happened. And, and this is problematic.
41:19
This is what Israel intends, you know, to really hide the
41:23
atrocities that are happening in the Gaza Strip and are ongoing.
41:27
We must leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed.
41:30
That's the forecast from Jerusalem.
41:32
Bye bye.