Latest / Small Town Summits / Long-Suffering in Difficult Places (w/ Bob Davis)

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Long-Suffering in Difficult Places (w/ Bob Davis) · Small Town Summits

• Ben Whittinghill: This woman and her mother, who were from the local Baptist church ten miles away, had been praying for Miller's Falls for 50 years. And then I they led me to a group of other people, believers from various churches who met and prayed for renewal and revival in our valley. You know, and God is at work in those people, not in our church. That had that had been pretty dead for a while, but he had been at work elsewhere, long before I came. And he's continuing to work there. And he worked there while I was there. So God is at work even if I don't see it. Welcome to the Small Town Summits Podcast. I'm one of your hosts, Michael Badger, and I had the absolute joy this week of speaking with Bob Davis, a wonderful brother who is currently serving as an instructor in the Timothy House, the pastoral training center for the Presbyterian Church in Gambia, West Africa. Before the Lord led him to his current ministry, Bob served at a small town church in Massachusetts. And though this church had experienced significant theological drift prior to his arrival, Bob faithfully pastored there for many years, being an example of long suffering in difficult circumstances. In this interview, Bob speaks not only to what long suffering in ministry actually looks like, but how the Lord can sustain you and even bless you in the midst of it. I hope this interview greatly encourages you as it did me, and I hope you enjoy the episode. Well, Bob, thank you so much for ⁓ joining us on the Small Town Summits Podcast. It is a ⁓ a pleasure and an honor to have you on. ⁓ before we get going, I would love for you to explain who you are, ⁓ what you're doing, how the Lord called you into ministry, but before that, how the Lord called you to himself. Good, good. Well, it's great to be here, Michael, and ⁓ just glad that have this opportunity to reflect on ⁓ what the Lord's done. And obviously he gets all the glory. So I think it's ⁓ Richard Baxter who said, I was but a pen in God's hand, and what praises do a pen? So Amen. Even more so in his day when it would have been a quill. So That's right. So I grew up in a ⁓ Christian home. I have ⁓ New England credibility, born in ⁓ Springfield, Massachusetts, but grew up mostly suburban Boston in Burlington. My dad was a UCC minister, but in the you have to remember in the s fifties, sixties, and seventies, ⁓ there were a lot of godly people in the UCC, United Church of Christ. And he had grown up a Methodist, and my parents loved the Lord, and my mom still does. And ⁓ we're glad that w we as children got to grow up in a home where ⁓ Christ was modeled as one worthy of following. But I didn't come to faith until I went away to college. ⁓ growing up, ⁓ I wouldn't say that what was practiced in the church where I was growing up, a UCC church, would look like evangelical Christianity today. It was a far more mainline church, ⁓ almost go through the motions for a lot of people. And yet my dad preached the gospel, ⁓ but I didn't hear it. ⁓ I went off to college and met a lot of believers. And ⁓ came to faith my freshman year at ⁓ Grove City College in Western Pennsylvania. Wonderful. Yeah. ⁓ so I went to college as pre-med, but as I grew in my faith, mentored and discipled by people there, they put me in places and opportunities to exercise gifts. And soon I found myself leading things, ⁓ Bible studies, ⁓ even ⁓ leading people in ways that I thought was odd because they were more mature in Christ, I thought, than I was. ⁓ but ⁓ so the call to go into ministry came, I guess it was my junior year. I'd changed my major ⁓ a couple of times, as many students do. ⁓ but ⁓ I thought, well, why not go to seminary and go to the mission field? That would seem like an obvious place to go. Unreached peoples, you know. So I began talking with people about that, changed my major again, told my parents. ⁓ my dad said, ⁓ if you can do anything else but ministry, do it. But if you can't do anything but ministry, then do it. Good advice. Yeah. So ⁓ I went to Princeton Seminary, which I guess Machin had left fifty years before. I didn't realize that. ⁓ so by the time I got there was very liberal. But my thinking was, well, I can learn what the liberal church thinks. I can I can get a good education. And ⁓ it helped that they gave me a lot of money to attend there. ⁓ so I went to Princeton, ⁓ probably one of the worst decisions of my life. ⁓ but again, I thought I was going to the mission field. I'd gotten married my second year of seminary, and ⁓ we thought we'd go to the mission field and we interviewed with I think it was a South American mission agency, and I said I really wanted to reach unreached people. And he told me, but you sound like your heart is for New England. Do you not realize that they are an unreached people group? Hmm. And at the time we thought, well, we don't really want to go there. But we started applying and got accepted to a call at a church in Western Mass. And my parents were excited because They were in Massachusetts. We thought, well, we'll go there for a few years, learn ministry, and then go to the mission field. so in 1982, we went to the first congregational church of Miller's Falls. It was United Church of Christ. ⁓ the previous pastor there had been probably converted while he was the minister there. But it was quite a transformation in his life, and he didn't last much longer in that church, and yet They were looking for a ⁓ what they called a born-again minister. Now many in the church didn't understand what that was, ⁓ but they called us and we went and ⁓ began our ministry there. ⁓ so the process of coming to faith was from childhood, of course, planting the seeds in my home, my parents teaching me the scriptures, ⁓ but then confronted with the gospel and its clarity in college. And ⁓ responding to God's call and then like any call into ministry it was gradual, ⁓ but it seemed like the obvious thing to do at the time. And ⁓ when people encourage you in the church, outside of the church, ⁓ off you go. Yeah, well that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, and the topic that we wanted to talk to you about ⁓ was the topic of long suffering in ministry. ⁓ and you know, I I read that article that you sent me, and thank you for sending that to me, because it helped kind of ⁓ give me an understanding of of sort of your time at that church, ⁓ that that church where it just seemed like when when you mentioned the the pastor came to faith in ministry. ⁓ I think for a for a lot of people, so I was born and raised in the South in the Bible Belt, the that thought of a pastor not actually being born again, not actually being truly saved ⁓ while he's in ministry just seems so foreign. ⁓ but can you just can you speak to that for just a moment? ⁓ to just ⁓ speak to the the the issues that that sometimes we fall into here in New England in terms of of it being very similar to these unreached. people groups that you wanted to at first go and minister to overseas. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the ⁓ the idea that ministers maybe are not saved, of course, is a very old one. You look in the history of the church and you'll find men that were in ministry and and then wonderfully come to faith at times of revival. ⁓ the man who was my ⁓ precedent there at Miller's Falls was just an average man who'd been to, I think, Andover Newton seminary. Went into ministry, but through the preaching of the word and preparing, came to realize he didn't really know Christ and ⁓ was converted. so that that's a wonderful truth. But the reality is, as you well know, ⁓ back when I was there in the eighties, nineties, early two thousands, and even today, ⁓ there are countless churches that are pastored by people that are unbelievers. ⁓ and that's that's reality. ⁓ In in reflecting for this interview, Michael, I I was thinking about what New England is today and what it was fifty years ago when I started almost. ⁓ probably a different place, but in many ways still the same. Great history, ⁓ churches on every green, all over the towns, many of them now restaurants or whatever. ⁓ but ⁓ you know, the heritage is fantastic. The difficulty is the stony hard ground. And That hasn't changed from what I understand. ⁓ we left New England in two thousand eight. ⁓ came to the Bible Belt, really, southwestern Virginia. my wife often says it felt like coming from ⁓ the mission field to fur back home on furlough to move to Virginia where the culture is so different. ⁓ and yet the ground is stony here, just in a different way. America's changing. We've lost our Christian heritage. ⁓ it still hangs around in various places and some odd places, but ⁓ largely ⁓ what we see today is not biblical Christianity in so many churches, whether that be in New England or or even in the South, where ⁓ it becomes the cultural norm to go. ⁓ but the heart, maybe hard as hard as rock. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was kind of reflecting on that as well and We were talking with some of our, you know, supporting churches down south, ⁓ and ⁓ we were sort of trying to describe to them the the spiritual situation here. And ⁓ and like you said, you know, I'm I'm pretty new to New England. ⁓ but ⁓ one of the things that God used to call my wife and I here is learning about how similar the spiritual DNA is here as it is over in Europe where my wife and I were serving in terms of having this rich heritage, having the heritage of the ⁓ of the Protestant Reformation, the English Reformation, the Swiss Reformation, all of these different things. ⁓ And ⁓ and yet that heritage is is slipping away bit by bit. And and I was thinking of the you know the passage in Habakkuk and I'm I'm kind of paraphrasing here where ⁓ you know the prophet is saying Lord we've we've heard of your great deeds ⁓ Lord we we know that you've done these things ⁓ these wonderful things in the past do it again here ⁓ bring it again bring that revival back ⁓ to us. We want to see those deeds in this lifetime, ⁓ in this place again. And that's that's that's kind of my heart, and I think everyone's heart, ⁓ that is a faithful minister ⁓ in the United States, period, but but here in ⁓ in New England, we've we've heard of these great deeds, Lord. Do them again ⁓ here in our lifetime. And ⁓ but you know you you mentioned the the church that you pastored here and the church that you pastored was a a historical church. Am I am I right in that? Like it goes back quite a while. and it seemed like it was a a a solid church for a bit, ⁓ but it slowly started to have that that liberal drift. and then you come in and when you got there, did you did you know about the kind of the spiritual DNA of that church or was it kind of a surprise to you when you when you got there? I didn't know that one particularly. They they were not even appraised of their own history very well ⁓ when they rec recruited ministers to come. They were very much in the present. This is who we are today. ⁓ but I had read church history, I knew New England's drift over the years and ⁓ recognized that that was certainly a possibility. ⁓ in fact, I think that it in many ways became a key to the the work that the Lord did there. was looking historically. Because when I came in and we started changing some things ⁓ from their current mindset, practices, et cetera, I was looked upon as the progressive. You know, this is who we are. We're conservative. You're you're trying to change us. And at first that seemed, well, you've got it backwards. But then realizing that, okay, let's look historically. Who are we as a church? A particular congregation. Who are we as the United Church of Christ? Where did we come from? What was the congregational church? And so as we looked back and said that they wanted to really stay conservative, so they said, conservative to their current beliefs, which were liberal, ⁓ we discovered church documents for our own congregation. One that we discovered was ⁓ many congregational churches had a historic church covenant. Which, when you became a member, you affirmed the covenant. So we discovered that in in archives. It's it was really sound. It was wonderful, very Christ-oriented. So we began with new members and even old members saying, This is what we believe, and this is what you say when you become a member. And so every year on the first Sunday in January, we would repeat the covenant one to another. That we covenant together to follow the Lord Jesus Christ as our faithful Savior. It's a beautiful covenant. Five or six ⁓ paragraphs. And this started getting people thinking about, well, that is what we believe. What does that mean? And then we went further back and said, okay, what are the historic documents of congregationalism? And we dug up the Savoy Declaration of Faith. We dug up the Cambridge platform, 300 years old, 400 years old, and said, This is historic congregationalism. We should, we should understand this. So we started studying those documents and those movements backwards, which were very attractive because, ⁓ we're simply going back in history, showed liberal Christians that really they had left the faith. But it wasn't me coming in with new innovations. I was actually trying to get them to go back further than they currently were. ⁓ so back to the historic biblical faith. Yeah. Well, and I've heard of ⁓ many stories of other pastors who are here now who are kind of going through the same thing. They're they're trying to correct that course. And ⁓ and I think that as you are ⁓ as you're dealing with those difficulties. So so I'm in a in a in a very blessed position where I planted this church. And so I get to kind of ⁓ you know, with my other elders, you know, kind of get to decide what those things are, which is a lot easier than going into a place that ⁓ you know, they've been you know, setting up their their, you know, their sacred cows that they don't want to get rid of ⁓ and and have experienced that drift. ⁓ and so kind of as I'm thinking about some of the challenges that I've heard about and hearing some of challenges that ⁓ that you've been through, I I kinda categorize them in two different ways in my mind. I want to kinda ask you about those two different categories and ⁓ and and I'm thinking about the theological challenges that you had to go through ⁓ and that you had to kind of have this long suffering in But then also the relational challenges. I I read in your article, you know, you had somebody just kind of storm out of the church, ⁓ you know, saying that they've been they've been a a member longer than you've even been ⁓ been around. And so having those relational challenges you had to work through as well. And so I would like to kind of hear your thoughts on both of those, kind of starting with with that theological challenge. Because I think when a pastor, you know, desires to see their church reform, it can be tempting to kind of push for that. really quick, rapid change because you you want them to to do what is right, you know, and ⁓ but ⁓ you kinda have to balance that, I imagine, balance that urgency with with this need to have this this patient ⁓ heart for for this long-term pastoring. You know, I think of ⁓ Second Timothy two, you know, where ⁓ where Paul is saying to Timothy that ⁓ you have to ⁓ I have it here, able to teach and patiently endure evil correcting his opponents with gentleness and then God may perhaps grant them repentance. And so you you kind of you can't just be so quick. You do have to be patient. So can you speak into dealing with those theological challenges, kind of fighting against the temptation to just change everything immediately? And and how does long suffering look in that particular area? Great question. Many questions there. ⁓ one I want to Well, it it's just trying to layer it and get it in in a in a good order for us. One of the things I've noticed reflecting back on on my time there and and in ministry in general is that there's always two reformations or two renewals that need to take place, the church and me. And what I was as a twenty five year old recent seminary grad, ⁓ going into a church that needed severe change, was reflected in how much I needed to change, ⁓ and how much I needed to grow and mature, even as I was trying to get them to change, mature, and grow. And so the ⁓ things I decided, the things I did, the things ⁓ we then ⁓ did together ⁓ were not always the best decisions early on. ⁓ my favorite story is ⁓ I had not been there a couple months and the ⁓ the The chancel area up in the front of the church was a what we call a split pulpit with the pulpit off to the right side and a a lectern off to the left. The pulpit was kind of crammed against the wall, and they had an altar, they called it that in the middle. Not a very Protestant church, but anyway. Right next to the pulpit, with two feet between me and the pulpit and the wall was the American flag. And when I'm preaching, I would constantly be hitting the flag with my right hand. And one Sunday I I just said it, I said, What is this flag even doing here? Well, during the week, someone, and I I to this day don't know who it was, went in and removed the flag. Well, that became a controversy because the assumption was that I had removed the flag. And what was I doing, taking the American flag out of the sanctuary, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? And I didn't handle that well. I said, Well, it doesn't belong there anyway. But it became quite a controversy that was an unnecessary controversy. And and learning early on what do we what do we discuss together and decide together? What do the leaders of the church legislate in a congregational church? Of course, that's very hard to do. and and what do we not even ⁓ talk about at this point because no one's ready to hear it. So whether it be a doctrinal issue or practical issue about a flag, ⁓ how we serve the Lord's Supper, ⁓ those kinds of things, getting people on board. Slowly, gradually, patiently, ⁓ is perhaps the hardest lesson to learn, particularly for a young seminarian who thinks he knows everything. ⁓ Yeah, that's good. So how how did you go about triaging that? You know, ⁓ saying, Hey, these are the things that we need to hit right away. These are the things that, you know, at at some point down the road we need to hit, and then other things that for the sake of unity and peace in the church, we just need to let go. Well, one of the difficulties early on is I really didn't have a team of leaders. The the structure that was there in the church was what they had called a board of deacons, which were really acting like elders and ⁓ they were the decision making body. There was no one on that board that at that time I would have assessed as a believing born again Christian. The only reason I was called to that church is on the pulpit committee there were a couple of young people that had been converted at college or university, had come back home, and they pushed for what they called a born again minister. So I fit that bill for them. I was acceptable to the liberal leaders. And so in leadership meetings, as I would make proposals about either decisions practically or or doctrinally, they were usually met with deaf ears. So early on I learned we're not going to change anything for a while. ⁓ I'll just preach, start Bible studies, pray, and visit people. And for the first year, two years, that's all I really did as far as trying to change anything. The incremental just put the word out, put the word out, put the word out. What what's the famous ⁓ Martin Luther quote? ⁓ I sat and drank Wittenberg beer while God ⁓ took his word and changed everything or something. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Well it was it was very, very gradual at the beginning. And I didn't really have a plan either, to be honest. I just knew they weren't a biblical church. I wanted them to be. How do we do this? It was on the job training. Yeah. Yeah, that's excellent. So going to the that other other category of relational challenges as you are ⁓ trying to pastor this church and see reformation happen within it, what are some of the relational challenges that that you experienced as you were going through this? Well, going back to the the the point that the church needs to change and I need to change, I'm not a patient person by nature. ⁓ And I'm also ⁓ abrupt in my speaking, which my wife wonderfully taught me, that women don't react well to that. ⁓ so v being very direct and impatient is not the the the model you want in in ministry, you know? ⁓ but God was good. And ⁓ so as we try to help people relationally see The need for doctrinal change, it meant visitation. ⁓ one of the things I emphasized then and ⁓ at the beginning was I wanted to get into every home. Well, a lot of people had never had a pastor visit them in their home. ⁓ previous pastors had not done that. And so me wanting to be with them, visit them, spend time with them, get to know them on a relational level really set the the the foundation for trying to change. doctrinally, biblically present the gospel, explain this is what walking with Christ looks like, not this model that you're used to. And so it's so important that that relational change. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when you when you did have those those situations where, you know, you had people in the church who wanted to leave because they did not like what you were doing, you know, especially that one example that you used in that article that you wrote, ⁓ How did that hit you? How did that hit you in in in the heart? Because I've I've had situations like that. Even in just five years, we've had people leave because of theological disagreements. And and even when, you know, I by God's grace, they they left in a much kinder way than it seemed like you you've had experience with at the church in Massachusetts. but it still hurts. You know, it it it hurts because you've gotten to know these people over the course of years and you've, you know, b tried to minister to them, pour yourself into them. ⁓ and then they they just leave. ⁓ and so how did how did that hit you? And then how did the Lord ⁓ just nurture you through that time? It's hard not to take those kinds of things personally. I was just talking with my son in law yesterday, he's he's a pastor, and he was having a difficult situation about a couple leaving the church. And ⁓ I said, We just have to remember it's it's it's not us personally. We're ambassadors. And the message that we're bringing is not really our message if we're being faithful. ⁓ we're ambassadors, so they they don't like the king. That's who they don't like. And they don't like the king's message. But it is very hard not to take that personally. ⁓ so I didn't do that very well at the beginning. You you sort of develop an armor ⁓ that is both reactive and and perhaps not helpful because you don't allow yourself to be hurt. ⁓ but there's a sense in which you need some armor because the the arrows are coming. And particularly if you're in a situation where you're trying to change things maybe too fast or without the relational foundation, you're gonna get a lot of arrows. So we need an armor, but it can't become that you therefore no longer listen to anyone, don't receive any counsel, or that you're just hard hearted yourself. ⁓ and then the need to constantly be checking where are you are in this. But remembering that whose work is this? It's Christ's work. How is the work done in his power, in his time, by his ways? And so I'm I'm but a tool. And ⁓ if if the tool gets hurt, well, that's what tools are for, you know, they get banged around. ⁓ so we have to keep that perspective. It's not all about me. It's about Christ, it's about his church, it's about the the goal of ministry, which is ⁓ building up the church of Jesus Christ. So A defensiveness but not a negative, ⁓ insulated defensiveness. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. So kind of along the same lines of the of the this whole relational aspect ⁓ of long suffering. ⁓ you know, A.W. Tozer, he was he was, you know, famous for being this wonderful godly man. ⁓ but then when he passed away, you know, his wife famously got remarried and was ⁓ you know, had has that quote of, you know, there's there's no doubt that ⁓ that AW ⁓ loved the Lord, but my new husband loves me. ⁓ and so in the that season of long suffering, ⁓ gosh, I just that quote just gets me every time. It just makes me want to go home and hug my wife. And ⁓ but ⁓ in the midst of this long suffering, it's one thing I think sometimes for us as, you know, the husbands ⁓ and as the pastors of the church to just kind of grit and bear it, you know, through it. ⁓ and sometimes lose focus on okay, how is this affecting my wife? And am I being a good leader for her through this this time of long suffering? And am I even thinking about, you know, the relational aspects that she's going through right now as my wife, ⁓ as the as the pastor's wife, which carries a lot of connotations for for different people within the church, whether they're invited or not. ⁓ and so how did you lead your wife through this time and and how did she handle all of these ⁓ various trials that you that you went through. Good question. Someone asked me years ago w what's the best ⁓ most important thing in ministry? I said marry well. ⁓ marry well. Really, you know, thank the Lord. ⁓ we've been married forty five years. She's ⁓ she's been our my biggest help all along. ⁓ so if I come home, we lived a block from the church, that long walk home at di on lunchtime and evenings after a dys difficult time, ⁓ she'd be there upbeat, encouraging. ⁓ but on the other hand, I was not always aware that she was discouraged at times as well, because she saw ⁓ the the arrows and the difficulties and the challenges and the burdens that I was bearing, which ⁓ caused her to suffer. And I'm not the most sensitive guy in the world. ⁓ so I would often miss that. And ⁓ I wasn't doing very well at that, probably. ⁓ but together, as we prayed together, suffered together, worked together, saw it as a team ministry, ⁓ she would build me up, I would try to build her up. ⁓ she, reflecting back on those years, had lonely years. There were not ⁓ godly Christian women that could mentor her. there were not people there that she felt particularly at attached to as friends. ⁓ acquaintances, friends of of a certain level, but not deep spiritual friends. And that was a difficult time for her. So we have to be aware of that. ⁓ once children started coming, of course, her focus shifted there. And ⁓ that's a great joy. We had been blessed with four wonderful children. ⁓ we started a Christian school, so she was teaching in that. So lots of activities helped as the church grew and changed, but ⁓ being aware of your spouse's needs. Caring for those needs and yet leaning on her, very, very important because the times there was no one else to lean on at the beginning. ⁓ no one I could pour out my heart to. Which leads to another aside, which I think was the most vital aspect of my ministry there, was finding men in like ministries that I could sh share suffering with. ⁓ I love what small town summits is doing. ⁓ we should have been there when I was there. ⁓ but finding other pastors locally, not so much denominationally, ⁓ but just finding other men that we could ⁓ share in these things together was very, very important. Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. It's been it's been crucial for me, ⁓ for sure, and my other elders that are that are here at at Redeemer. ⁓ I I by nature am not a good networker. And so kind of knowing that weakness in ⁓ in me, you know, I I kinda threw myself at the opportunity to to be a part of small town summits to to help with that, to to be able to hear the stories of other pastors who are going through things, to learn from their wisdom, to learn from their mistakes, ⁓ and ⁓ and to share that burden of ministry that we're all that we're all called to called to bear. ⁓ and so yeah, absolutely. That is that is a a incredibly important word. ⁓ In kind of going back to this this concept of of long suffering, I think it can I think that term can sometimes be just this one that we kind of throw out without actually really kind of unpacking it and really understanding what is meant by by long suffering. ⁓ because I I one of the things that I think we can sometimes ⁓ mistake is thinking that long suffering ⁓ can be essentially just ⁓ stubbornness, right? You know, I'm I'm not going to leave this place, whether they want me to leave or not. You know, I'm gonna stick it out and and it can ⁓ it can begin to almost just come from a place of of bitterness towards the people that you're trying to minister to. and ⁓ you know, you're just wanting to dig your heels in to to show them rather than coming from a place of actual genuine love. And, you know, in in Romans thirteen, ⁓ verse eight, you know, Paul says that we actually owe a debt of love to others, whether they're our enemies or not. ⁓ we're we're called to ⁓ to continually pay this never ending eternal debt of love to our neighbor, ⁓ which is meant to be the place where long suffering ⁓ blooms from. ⁓ and so my my question is in the midst of all that, in the midst of the ministry that you're in now, ⁓ you know, help help me, this this ⁓ you know pastor that's ⁓ still wet behind the ears, you know, how do you cultivate a true pastor's heart for the people of your church that allows you to suffer long? I wish I had a magic answer to that. I I just read ⁓ weeks ago. I love to preach, and I read a quote from Martin Lloyd Jones, something like this. anyone can love to preach, but do you love the people you preach to? That's hard. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. And that is hard. ⁓ particularly in the setting where you're trying to change an existing congregation that isn't made up of particularly lovable people. ⁓ unconverted people can be very unlovable. Converted people can be very unlovable. ⁓ yeah, that w that was that's always been a difficulty. ⁓ I'm ⁓ I'm Academically minded first, ⁓ study minded relationally comes last. So I know my challenge, and so I have to work hard at that. ⁓ but people are generally easy to love if you see Christ in them or you see the potential ⁓ that could happen if Christ was in them. And ⁓ I can always find something about everybody that I I'm attracted to. ⁓ it's easy to talk with people for me. so I can usually latch on to something in their life that interests me, that I'm attracted to, that I want to know more about. And people love to have you ask questions and of course respond. ⁓ so ⁓ just learning to do that well conversationally, particularly with an unbeliever starting on a level where we can connect and hopefully moving that to deeper spiritual things over time, it will teach you how to love this person. You'll learn about their life. You'll learn about what what what frightens them, what ⁓ what beats their heart, ⁓ where their particular passions are. And you will learn to love them as you get to know them. So we can't love that which we don't know. ⁓ so getting to know people, which takes time, and in pastoral ministry often gets short shrifted. ⁓ we need to spend the time to get to know the people. It'll help you be a better preacher as well. Yeah, yeah. That's so good. I I think it can be so easy ⁓ to, you know, you you can kind of identify the people that, you know, you you just kinda naturally ⁓ you know, click with, that you naturally resonate with, and want to spend all of your time, you know, on a Sunday morning or throughout the week talking with them. And you can know those people in your congregation ⁓ who are who are more difficult. ⁓ they're they're either quiet or they have their quirks and they have their their sort of ⁓ their little pet topics that they just want to bring up to you all the time and you just don't want to, ⁓ you want to go on a brooch, you know. and ⁓ but I think that's, you know, kind of part of what Paul is talking about in, you know, Galatians six, you know, where he's talking about, you know, don't grow weary of doing good. And and a lot of that good in pastoral ministry, like you were mentioning, is that hard work of relational cultivation. ⁓ and and for me who is kind of natural I'm I'm a little bit like you in terms of ⁓ I'm I'm a bit more academic minded. I I'm by nature more more introverted. After a Sunday morning I I gotta go and take a a holy nap and just kind of rejuvenate from ⁓ from the morning. ⁓ and so it can be harder for me to want to actually expend that energy ⁓ to go and talk with those people who I know is just going to tax me emotionally and and spiritually. And yeah, as you're saying, that's how you learn to love your people. ⁓ if you don't put that ⁓ that good work in, ⁓ then you know, you're you're not going to reap that good harvest in due season because you haven't done that good work. and ⁓ so yeah, that's that's a that's a good word. That's a good word. Thank you for that. ⁓ now How in all of this, you know, as you're as you're going through all that, I I know that you hit moments of discouragement and this kind of, you know, kind of overlaps with a lot of what we've already talked about. But in those moments of of deep discouragement that you may have run into ⁓ as you were pastoring ⁓ that that difficult church, ⁓ you know, where did you run? You know, how did you how did you deal with that discouragement? Because that can be such a a poison to a pastor's heart. ⁓ that really ⁓ you know, ⁓ can sometimes be the death knell to our ministries. So how did you deal with discouragement? Again, but I think I mentioned it, ⁓ go back to the basics. What am I doing? Whose work is this? ⁓ why am I doing this? Am I doing the basics? You know, am I preaching the word? Am I faithfully ministering to the people? Am I shepherding the flock? ⁓ Is the discouragement because I'm not doing that or because it's not being well received? And if it's not being well received, is it me? what do I need to change? What do I need to reform? Or is it just because they don't like the message or the messenger? you know, the the the actual messenger, Jesus Christ, not me, his ambassador. So rethinking what is it that they're reacting negatively about, that's helpful. The second thing I did, which I I think all pastoral ministers need to develop something, is find something that you can do that is obviously productive. You know, whether that's mow the grass and you can say, wow, it looks good. It's done, at least for a week. ⁓ or for me it was woodworking construction projects. You put the nail in, it stays. You know, you you you put up the building, it stays, it looks good. ⁓ you need to find something where you can find ⁓ a sense of accomplishment because there may not be any in ministry at that particular time. And your view of self can go down the drain very quickly. So I'm still good at something. I can produce something. I can be productive. ⁓ people ministry is difficult because it's very hard to see growth. ⁓ so in times of discouragement, do something that will encourage you. That might be go out for a walk with your wife. That might be in a ⁓ take a week in the woods, but ⁓ do something that you find rejuvenating because to try to find it in ministry all the time may not be successful. Or fruitful. Yeah. Well, going back to, you know, Paul's words in Galatians six, you know, where he says, And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap if we do not give up. And and you are such a picture of that. You're a picture of of doing good and not giving up. And so can you can you Tell us a little bit about ⁓ what you reaped in that church, ⁓ because you did not give up ⁓ and you did not grow weary of doing good. Well, well, ⁓ a decided belief that God is at work all the time, even when you don't see it. ⁓ early on, ⁓ wonderful story, I met two women in the town library and I'd been there four or five years, and They said, ⁓ you're the new pastor. Yes, yes. We've been praying for that church for fifty years. ⁓ wow. This woman and her mother, who were from the local Baptist church ten miles away, had been praying for Miller's Falls for fifty years. God had been at work for fifty years, ⁓ doing something in the heart of these women. And then I they led me to a group of other people, it was called the Connecticut Valley Bible Conference. believers from various churches who met and prayed for renewal and revival in our valley. You know, and God is at work in those people, not in our church. That had that had been pretty dead for a while. ⁓ but he had been at work elsewhere, long before I came. And he's continuing to work there. And he worked there while I was there. ⁓ so God is at work even if I don't see it. ⁓ why do I need to see it? You know? Hmm. You know, and in the midst of discouragement, you know, the Elijah syndrome, I alone am left, I'm the only one. No, God's at work all over the place doing all kinds of things. And you need to be able to see that and trust that even if you don't see it, it's still happening. ⁓ so I learned that Yeah. Go ahead. ⁓ yeah. I was just ⁓ th that that word that you just mentioned about, you know, why do I need to see ⁓ what God is doing? in order to know that ⁓ that he is working. That is such a a humbling statement because I think that there are so many times where we do want to see it. You know, we we've we're putting in the effort, we're putting in all the work. Lord show us what we're doing. Like show us if there's there's fruit to that. ⁓ but there are so many times, you know, I I think of ⁓ so one of the men who was so instrumental in bringing my my whole family up to ⁓ to Vermont was this man named Merwin Borders. And ⁓ in back in the seventies and eighties, he was this kind of pioneering church planter outside of the greater Boston area. He even tried to plant a church here up in Saint Albans and it just didn't quite stick. ⁓ and he labored and labored and labored here in New England ⁓ without seeing much fruit. ⁓ and then he ended up, you know, retiring down in Tennessee and ⁓ now he's down in Georgia, I believe, now. but There are so many people up here in New England who asked me how I came up here, ⁓ and I mentioned ⁓ Merlin's name, and they're like, he is an amazing, godly man who did an amazing work up here. And it is through his ministry, which he didn't see a whole lot of fruit, that so much is going on up here because of that, because of his legacy that he left and the Lord using ⁓ his work, even though he didn't really truly get to see it ⁓ as he put his hand to the plow up here in in New England. And so that is such a a good and humbling reminder that ⁓ gosh, you know, the the measure of our success is is not in ⁓ all of these numbers of people that we come seeing ⁓ coming in our doors on a Sunday morning. It's it's faithfulness and and leaving the leaving the results up to the Lord in his timing and in his way. That is such a good reminder. How true that is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, ⁓ kind of closing things out now, ⁓ I I do wanna have you mention just real quick, ⁓ so the church that you were pastoring ⁓ in Miller's Falls, ⁓ it didn't stay liberal, right? You you did get to see some fruit from that. Yeah, we we w we left the United Church of Christ, ⁓ joined ⁓ the four Cs for a while, Conservative Christian Congregational Conference, then became independent. And then eventually joined the Presbyterian Church in America after I left. ⁓ but ⁓ we had we had become a successfully faithful church in in the right biblical sense of that. ⁓ sadly, in the years since the church has declined tremendously in number. It's still there, still faithful, ⁓ but much, much smaller. but it it it was a success, I guess you could say. And and we have to look at success in a in a biblical way. You know, how many probably hundreds of people went through that church in the twenty-six years I was there? I don't know. Many moved on to other churches, many ⁓ left the area. those people are still hopefully walking faithfully with the Lord. ⁓ I haven't tracked them, I don't know where they are, but you know, we see the perspective that a church is more like a hotel. ⁓ than a residence. So people come, people go. ⁓ some for good godly reasons and some for unbiblical reasons, but ⁓ we're ministering to the ones that are there that week for that time. And if they go off elsewhere, ⁓ God can use them where they go. ⁓ so Yeah, yeah. Well praise God. Praise God. I'm glad that ⁓ that you were able to to to see, you know, that that good fruit come from that that long suffering that you put into ⁓ into that ministry. ⁓ now kind of as we Wrap up, you know, I would love for you to kinda have the the last word and say any parting words of of of wisdom for ⁓ pastors who are currently laboring into ⁓ in these difficult places in New England. Pray, preach, persevere. ⁓ Amen. That's the ministry. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Bob, thank you so much, brother, for this time. It was ⁓ it was so wonderful and I'm I'm glad we had the chance to sit down and talk. Great. Thanks for taking the time. Thanks for listening to the Small Town Summits Podcast. 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