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Inside H Division: The Prison Within Pentridge - Part 1 · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Approache Production.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Adam Shann. They were prisons within prisons, the last destination
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: for punishing those who would not surrender to the system
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: and the rules. In a two part series, I'm going
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: to explore how authorities in one of Australia's most notorious
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: jails sought to break the will of inmates, how misguided
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: that notion was, and how the community ended up bearing
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: the consequences. In this first episode, I'm taking you inside
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: H Division in Pentridge Prison with a man who was there.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Ray Mooney, was a champion athlete who fell from grace,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: serving an eight year sentence for rape and finding his
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: way into H Division. H Division left its mark on everyone,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: even the screws who worked there, and Ray has turned
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: that experience into plays and books, including the award winning
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Every Night Every Night. He's recently brought out a book
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: on H Division of Evil, and I'm pleased to welcome
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Ray to Real Crime once again.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Adam, pleasure to be here.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: I remember reading a letter that your mother sent to
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: you where she talked about and I paraphrased this in
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: my book The Real Chopper about Chopper read that the
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: road to Hell was paved with flowers and there was
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: just a walkway down to the entrance of H Division
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: within Penridge Prison where they thoughtfully planted roses. I think
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: iris irises right, irises, suitably interesting flower A bit of
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: a van Go touch there, maybe.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, she wrote, I was in H Division for
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: nearly four months, just on the four months, and she
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: visited me every visit that she could, so she knew
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: it as.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: As I did, almost and could she see the inhumanity
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: of H Division and what it was doing to her son?
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: No, No, that was one of the clever techniques that
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Hate Division used that no one knew what was going on,
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: and that's back in those days. That's the truism. No
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: one had any idea of what was happening. No one
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: would have believed there was any illegal brutality. Ultimately there
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: was a royal commission into that because too many people
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: were taken to the hospital fire ambulance, So ultimately there
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: was that, there were a royal commission and later on
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: the Onwardsman had another report into Hate's Division. So no
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: one knew really what was happening. A lot was sort
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: of surmised about what was happening, but there was no proof.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: My first visit there was with you as a matter
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: of fact, and at that time I can't think of
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: the year even but it was still preserved. It had
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: been cleaned out and long closed, but it still had
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: this medieval dungeon feel to it. What was it like
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: for you, young man in prison, being taken to this place
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: beyond the normal prison into h division.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look, it terrifying for everyone who went there, and
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: anyone who says they weren't terrified, it's just talking boards.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: We need to be aware that it went through different
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: stages because it was introduced in nineteen fifty eight and
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: for about ten years it was horrific brutality, horrific. Everyone
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: was flowed to within an inch of their life. The
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: only thing you're allowed to do was breathe, and sometimes
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: people didn't come out breathing. It was a terrifying place.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Everyone was terrified of it. Then probably for about four
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: years it was maximum brutality, but nowhere near as bad
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: as it was originally. Then there was a Royal commission
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: into the brutality and brutality is so in the seventies
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: or the latter part of the seventies, brutality minimized. It
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: was still there and people were still flogged within an
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: insul their life, but it was never as bad as
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: it originally was. Then in the eighties it was replaced
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: by Jiker Jiker and brutality was basically very, very minimal.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: We'll be talking about Jiker Jiker in the second part
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: of this series, where I think the brutality was much
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: more on a psychological level totally, and this austere, sterile
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: place which removed all the humanity from the inmates experience.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: But H Division had its own psychological background and makeup.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Try to paint the picture for us of what it's like,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: what it was like coming into H Division, getting to
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: that reception area, when you first see the cross on
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: the carpet there and you would be initiated through what
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: they called reception bash.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: There was no cross on the carpet. Look, I know
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: exactly what you're talking about, because the crosses were on
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: the carpets in each cell. Each individual cell had what
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: was called a choya matting, and there was a black
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: cross in the middle of the choya matting. There was
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: no There was a cross at the bottom of stairs
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: that led to labor yards, but into the reception area,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: which was the foyer of Hate Division. There were no
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: crosses at all.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I'll defer to your experience. I wasn't there.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: You were, yeah, sure, no, no, that's okay.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: But that moment where the brutalization and the subduing of
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: prisoners began in that.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Area totally in the in the reception area, which was
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: a four yer that was before you got into the
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: cell block area. So the foyer was an initial stage.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: It was a stage where you were received and that
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: you were even your Hate Division clothes, and part of
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: that process was you had to strip off and as
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: you were sort of in the process of stripping off,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: you were depending upon who you were and why you
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: were there, because that's what we need to put in perspective.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: It wasn't always that the tough grimso were sent there.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: It was used as a disciplinary division as well as
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: a punishment division, and there are two separate areas, so
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: people were sent down there, like for example, the famous
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: John Killick, who I assume you know, was originally sent
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: down there for having a racing guide and was battered
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: senseless for having a racing guide. It was a disciplinary procedure,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: but everyone went through the reception biff in the early days.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Later on that disappeared, So we need to put into
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: genuine perspective. There were different time periods of intensity of brutality.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: Did you get biffed?
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, because I refused to break rock I'm probably And
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: this is self serving, but fair.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Enough, what's your appearance. You can serve you that's.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: True, no matter what other people tell you about how
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: they never bred that everyone broke rocks, but I didn't.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I refused to break rocks despite what they did to me.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm one of the few people in the world
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: who can hold their head high and come out and
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: saying and say totally truthfully that they couldn't force me
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: to break rocks no matter how hard they tried, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: they tried pretty.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Hard, because there were the labor yards where they would
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: drop in through a hole in the wall, these blocks
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: of stone which you were forced to break into small pieces,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: which were then used as road base around Victoria.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, the joke was we were building the road, the
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Highway from Melbourne to Sydney with the blue metal screenings.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: The screenings were used as road fill.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: But you wouldn't break rocks. And I think the psychological
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: apparatus of h Division required compliance and breaking of will,
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: not just rocks. Did you understand that.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Oh totally, totally. Look during my period, and my period
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: was nineteen sixty eight to seventy five in Pentridge, I
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: was in Haste Division in nineteen seventy three. Now we
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: have to put that into perspective. That is straight after
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: the Royal Commission by Jenkinson was held, which meant that
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: the brutality was nowhere near as ferocious as it was
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: in ten years prior. So despite the fact that I
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: was bashed a lot because I refuse to break the rocks.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: And to put something else into perspective is within the
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: prison system, from the screw's point of view, the worst
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: crime a prisoner can commit is refusing to obey a
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: lawful order. That's what they regard as the worst crime
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: that can be committed. That's irrespective of attacks, assaults and
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: what have you. Back in my day, it was always
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: about because that meant that they lost their power. If
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: anyone refused to obey a lawful order, whoever had given
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: that order lost incredible power among the eyes of the screws,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: and they were always about making certain that everyone obeyed
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: lawful orders. And when I came to Hate subvision, I
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: refused to break lock, and that was refusing to obey
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: a lawful order. And they set out to do everything
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: they could to break me. And they couldn't.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Describe those bashings that you got.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Oh well if you and I say this not in
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: a self serving way, but in a legitimate way. If
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: you read the book I wrote, I've described the there
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: and it takes pages and pages. You can't just describe
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: it in the moment with a few sentences. It's a
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: horrific situation, but succinctly it was. I was given an
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: order once I was in a laby yard. This is
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: the first morning I'm in a laby yard to take
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: the twelve pound sledge hammer and to break rocks into
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: smaller rocks. And I had already had this in my mind.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: I had bragged about if they ever put me in
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Hate's division, smart mooney, if they ever put me in
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: H I won't be breaking they fucking rocks, you know.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: And of course, the moment you set yourself up like that,
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: then you find out whether or not you're faed income
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: or not. So the order comes right, mooney, pick up
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: the hammer, start breaking rocks. And I had already worked
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: this one out. I said, look, come, and you've got
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: to remember that at that stage there is no one
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: else in the laby yard but you, and up on
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: the catwalk giving you the order is the gallery screw
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: of the day and he's the one who's given me
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: this order. And I've said, look, respectfully, sir, I am
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: refusing to obey that order because I think it's unlawful. However,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: if you're prepared, the sister had just worked out. However,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: if you're prepared to give me gloves so I don't
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: get blisters, glasses so my eyes don't get subjected to
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: catteract from dust, and maybe shin guards so I don't
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: hurt my shins from flying rocks. I'll consider whether I'm
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: not to break rocks. And of course he scurries off.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Next minute the door opens and there's two screws bigger
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: than your mate, the soldier either side of me. Anyway, mooney,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: you've been given an order, and I start to repeat
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: it and bang both sides in the back in the kidneys.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: With the buttons.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: No no punch, no, no no fish, no no no batons.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: They were punches, but in the in the kidneys. That
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: went on for two weeks, but I started pissing blood
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: after a week, and unfortunately, like the medical screws come
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: down and blah blah blah, but they still keep punching
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: you in the in the they cut along story short,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: they drop off after Oh, I get charged. Every day
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: we're refusing to obey a lawful order and my defenses.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I don't believe it is a lawful order because you're
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: putting me in a situation where I can harm myself.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: And if you look at the regulations, which I knew
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: back the front, you will see that it's a crime
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: for a prisoner to purposely harm himself in prison. You
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: can be charged for self harm. And I knew this,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: so I had him over a barrel legally, and they
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: knew it. Plus, at the same time we had, after
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: a result of the Jaggerson Inquiry, the unions were looking
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: into how prisons were being treated, and these screws knew
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: that they didn't want to get someone like me off side,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: because legally I knew where I stood, and I was
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: prepared to take them all the way, no matter how
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: bad I was going to be injured. I was still
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: going to take them all the way legally, and they
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: charged me every day. But I was never ever presented
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: to any court, never lost one that never served the
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: nextra day for not having broken rocks. But I walked
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: out of that place nearly three and a half months
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: later with my.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Head very very high and no blisters.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Never joking. Here's here's a smith. This is a funny thing.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: I think this is a funny. They kept me in
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: the Laby yards for six weeks. Usually you only down
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: there for two weeks in the Laby Yards, and they'll
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: put you into an industry yard because it's a turnover
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: all the time. It's a turnover, so you've got crims
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: coming in and out all the time, and the laby
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: yards are full and they need to keep emptying them
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: all the time. But I was kept in there for
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: a lot lot.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Longer industry yards. You were making soft toys.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: And no, no, no, no, no, that's that. I read
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: all this all the time. I just wonder where people
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: get this from. Now. The only people who made soft
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: toys were the eight Division prisoners who were in a
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: special group called the Toy Makers Group. They are the
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: only ones who made soft toys as opposed to prisoners
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: who wanted to make a soft toy and send out
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: to their family. Brooms.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: What was the industry going on in actual division brooms.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: We were making brooms with our hands, putting in koyer
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: into brooms. That's those who were I just used to
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: do it anyway, So I didn't do.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: It, but you didn't. They make brooms either, didn't break rocks.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of other people who didn't make brands,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: but they all broke rocks. Everyone broke rocks.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, everyone, Because this why, as you say, it's a
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: massive challenge to the authority of the screws. And quickly
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, but I believe that these screws were
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: h division exclusively totally. They had their own car park.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: They were very separate and deliberately. So how did their
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: attitude to you change after your wilfulness, Ray Mooney?
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: It got aggressive and then I finished up challenging one
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: bloke to fight one out and he didn't want to
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: do it. And for some reason, that seemed to represent
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: to them. When I mean one bloke, I mean a
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: screw that seemed to represent to them. Oh here's a
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: good reason, Mooney showed and courage blah blah blah, so
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: we can now drop off him. The truth is they
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: were looking for an excuse to drop off me as
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: quickly as they could. They didn't want to follow through
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: with the legal thing. They knew they were in the wrong,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: but no one else would prepare to take them on.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And what impact did that have on the other inmates
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: who became aware of it?
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: No one, But there were no I didn't see any
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: other inmates. I heard them all breaking rocks. But you
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: never see anyone when you're down there, unless when you
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: are in an industry yard. Then you're put in with
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: six or five other prisoners who are six to each
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: industry yard. But you never see anyone. You can yell
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: out of a night time if you wanted, but if
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: you yell out, you get charged with making unnecessary noise,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: and that can, depending upon who you front, get you
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: an extra six months imprisonment, which heaps of people got.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Just only to pause here, that a vivid image or
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: an auditory memory of being in a in a yard
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: and hearing other men break rocks in silence, hour after hour.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Totally day after day, every day. Oh that's so, But
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: I have by the way, I hope I'm saying this correctly.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: I'm not in any way cast any dispersions on people
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: who broke rocks. Shit, everyone broke rocks, or even aspersions.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Even aspersions now everyone broke rocks. Distursions, Yeah, exactly, So
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I don't there's nothing wrong. We're breaking rocks when you've
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: been told you when you're shitting yourself, not a problem
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: in the world. Right.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: You're giving a really authentic version of H Division, which
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: I'm really grateful for because a lot of people will
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: draw their image of H Division from the Chopper film
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: and you've seen it.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I've read all these books, but.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: They're all sort of lolling around in big open areas
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: inside H Division, able to attack each other and converse.
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: What was the reality about how much contact you would
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: have with other prisoners, and what was the setup around that?
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: Well, remember I started out by saying it was divided
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: into different time periods. Chopper came years later.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: He did it was then, it's like seventy eight, seventy nine.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And if you read the books, he says, oh,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: I love breaking rocks. You know, that's just an excuse
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: for I broke rocks, And as I say that, so what,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that he broke rocks. That's not a
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: dispersion on his character. Everyone broke rocks. It was my
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: choice not to, and I was the only one I
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: ever did.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: But again, my impression of h division is that you
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: were isolated for a lot of your time. What was
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: the daily routine. How often did you get to mingle
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: with prisoners in the course of a day.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: You didn't if you were in the laby yards. If
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: you were set when you were first sent down there.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: You spent time in the laby yards, as I said before,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: depending upon how many others were coming down. So you
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: might have only been in the laby yards for four days,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: you might have only been there for two weeks. You
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: might have only been there for a month. It depended
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: upon who they needed laby yards for. When you're in
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the laby yards, you saw no one. The only person
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: you didn't even see them. You saw a hand that
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: was a billet in other words, another prisoner, usually a
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: protected prisoner, who would hand you your meals through a trap,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: and you would hand your dirty plates back to that
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: person through a trap. And that was the only time
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I ever saw another prison in the Laby Yards. When
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: I was put into the industry yards, there were five
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: others that I saw every day. And who were they
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: at the time? I remember Paul Hetzel was in there
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: with me.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: He was a murder, wasn't he?
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Paul Hetzel was Paul Hessel was involved in the Russell
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Street bombing, Yes, but he's the guy who jumped in
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: front of Stan Taylor and gave evidence, and therefore they
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: wouldn't do a deal with Taylor. And that's why Taylor
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: gave everyone up because Hetswel jumped in first and gave
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: them or.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Well, and very few people know that to be accurate.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I mean Russell Street bombing resulted in the death of
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Constable Angela Taylor. So yep Hetzel directly or directly was
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: involved in the murder. Fair enough, Father Brosnan, the famous
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: But who.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Else is there when I was Okay, Alan McClure, who
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: turns out to be a guy called Alan Williams, who
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: is the guy who supposedly was involved with Rogerson and
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Chris Flannery and shooting jury indeed was supposed to have
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: given the order. Yes, or he was there at the time, Alan,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Alan mc I just I can remember I see their faces,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: but I forget their names.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do you feel bonded after a period in that
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: intense place?
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And it is no different than you having been through
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: adversity with a group of people, whether it's war, whether
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: it's a drama group, whether it's a football club, it's
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: exactly the same. Of course, you feel bonded. You don't
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: only feel bonded, but you feel committed and protective, and
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: that it's like the ANZACs.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Because the famous prison chaplain, Father Brosnan. Yep, I'm probably
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: gonna get this quote wrong, but he said, h division,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: you go in there as a bicycle thief and come
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: out as a murderer.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Ah, that's bullshit, but it was a good line. He
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: did say that, of course he said it. But it's
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: a good line. But look, everyone wants to say that
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: that it was haste division that turned the stand tailors
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: into the people they were bullshit. That the way Trees
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: police treated them during their arrest was more responsible for
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: ultimately their subsequent behavior than that. All these people we're
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: talking about had been through the boys homes. They'd been
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: bashed sensors through the boys' homes. Hate division was just
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: another extension of the boys' homes. It was what was
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: expected prison like. It was no big deal in terms
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: of that. It was different. Every prison in the world
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: had a hate division, you know, in some way or other.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: God look at onetanam Obey. You know, they legislated to
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: make torture legal, and they did. They made waterboarding legal,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: standing on a box naked legal. They legislated. Haste division
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: didn't legislate. It was all illegal. But there were hates
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: divisions everywhere. Boggo Roade freo yet, but they all had
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: hate divisions. Long Bay, right, Grafton was probably Johnny Kelly
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: will tell you that Grafton was probably even worse than
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: hates a vision, and he'd served time in both them.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Looking back on it now, can you see the institutional
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: philosophy around all these prisons within prisons?
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Totally? Absolutely totally. It is so predictable. You know, you
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: put a kid through boys' homes and it's arguable that
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: two out of ten will go on to be serious criminals,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: probably more, but at least to it a tend.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And in your famous play Every Night, Every Night, which
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: is based on Christopher Dale Flannering, you talk about I
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: think it's Dale as the character in that his experience
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: in an H Division like prison. What role did H
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Division play? And I think you're going to say that
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: the Boys Home had a stronger role, But what role
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: did H Division play in Christopher's eventual career path?
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: It played it in a horrific role. If you want
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to get the book we've been talking.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: About that, I wrote Ethics of Evil.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, Chris's story is in there, as he wrote it
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: before I was released from prison in nineteen seventy four.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy five, I asked all the prisoners whom
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I knew that had been through H Division and this
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is important and had given evidence at the Jenkinson inquiry,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: would they write their stories for me? And if they would,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I promised them that one day I would have them published.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Now I did that with the Ethics of Evil, but
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: prior to that, it was Chris's story, which is about
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: eight or nine pages long of where he truthfully reveals
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: exactly the emotions he went through over the six times
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: they had sent him to Hate's Division. When he first
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: went down there, they'd broken him. Unbelievable, They'd done everything to.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: Him because he did admit he was broken.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as an eighteen year old. It was I think eighteen.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: You know, he's an eighteen year old and they've bashed
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: the shit out of him, and not just they. You've
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: got to think that there's four screws, gigantic screws smashing
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: you to ratchet until you're unconscious, every opportunity they like.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: The idea was that once you're unconscious, and that was it.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: But as an eighteen year old, they broke him. There's
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: no doubt he did that. They broke him. And as
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: we talk about in the play I wrote, he finished
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: up resigning from the human race to survive. And that's
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: why I ultimately turned into a writer and started writing things,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: which included Historian. The second thing I ever wrote was
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: a stage play based on that story that he wrote
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: about himself, and it's there for everyone to read. It's
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with me adding anything to it, and
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: if you read it, you'll see it's the most honest
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: thing you'll ever read in your life. When I was
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: commissioned by Penguin to write a book about or based
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: on on Chris's experience and my own experiences, I showed
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: them that letter that didn't what was a letter that
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: it was a six or seven to eight page letter
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: he'd written to me. That was the reason I got
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: commissioned to write the book.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Amazing line resigning from the human race and the idea
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: of prison, laughably, was supposed to be rehabilitation, bring you
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: back into society with the knowledge of your offending and
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: a pledge and a cleansed mind in order to rejoin society.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Opposite effect. And I think this goes back to Father
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Brosnan's quote about being a bicycle thief on the way
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: and a murder on the way out? Did resigning from
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: the human race?
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: Can I qualify about the Brozen quote because I put
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: it down, but not in a bad way. He was
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: spot on. It turned some people, right like most people
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: who went through hacer Vision were terrified at the place,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: and many people it was a turning point in their life,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: never to get in trouble again. So those places work.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: It's where, of course they work. And I've never ever
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: tried to make out that they don't. The point that
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: we need to look at is that the best way
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: to bring about change and what about the two percent
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: or the ten percent of people who do turn out
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: to be vicious people as a result of what they experienced.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Now you knew flattery very well. Yes, probably your best mate.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: He was I think you were the best man, or
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: he was the best man.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: He was the best He was the best man at my.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: Wedding, your wedding exactly.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I was going to be the best man at his wedding,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: but I couldn't make it.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Right, resigning from the human race in his case because
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: of h division. What did that turn him into?
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Look, it just turned him into a person who didn't
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: accept the values that everyone wanted him to accept at
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: the time. What he ultimately turned into, and that is
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: you know, it's quite well known that he turned out
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: to be one of the most successful assassins Australia's ever.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: You know, a hit man that Australia's produced. But that
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: happened over a long period of time. Those things don't
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: happen overnight, and they don't happen because of one experience.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: They are things that's slowly. It's like putting someone into
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: the army. They don't go in as a ruthless killer,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: but at the end of it they might turn out
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: to be a ruthless sniper, but they don't start that way.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: It's a long, long process. And there's no different than
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: any other thing that we learn. It's just that people
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: have the propensity to learn at different stages and to
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: take on experience as different ways. You put people in
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: those situations and they might take those experiences to the
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: nth degree. Everyone says, oh, yeah, I went to Hate's division,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: I got bash, but I didn't turn out to be
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: a ruthless killer. But hang on, you weren't him, and
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: you didn't get bashed the same way he did.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: You're you.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: That's why you didn't turn out to be a ruthless killer.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: And we sometimes just overlooked that.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And as you say, this process with Flannery and many
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: others began in the boys' homes. In fact, my father
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: used to threaten me, if you don't behave yourself, you're
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: gonna sound I'm going to send you to a boy's home.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: He was a psychiatrist who was actually going into those
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: places in the sixties and seventies, and that was the
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: dark vision of my future.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Well, my parents are the same thing. You know. I
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: got expelled from primary school and they said, if you
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: don't pull your finger around, you're gonna end up at
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: an orphan ditch or a boarding school. Well, of course,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: guess where I ended up fucking boarding school. And that
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: was worse than Bloody Hates's Division, I prmised her worse.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: So you finally got the discipline you were looking for
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: in H Division more than the discipline made so four
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: months there, I mean, how does that? How does that
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: time in H Division fit into your overall life story?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: Is it?
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It?
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Was?
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It a pivotal moment.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I became a writer. I decided to become a
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: writer down there and revealed to the world what these
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: assholes were really about. And I followed through and I'm
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: still doing it. So it was a pivotal moment. It
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: was like no river runs straight fromed Meander. It was
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: a turning point in my life. I meandered, and I'm
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: still meandering.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Still Meander, You're eighty now at you eighty one a half?
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Eighty one and a half, Sorry, diminister of.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: My life, bad anglem this is my life. Don't rob
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: me in my life.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting point. Dominion over oneself a really key
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: thing for prisoners in places like h H Division, Katingle
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: later Jaiker Jiker Dominion over oneself, and we saw lots
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: of self mutilation. Yeah, in h division, because an inmate's
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: body was the one thing that the screws and the
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: system couldn't touch. You heard a lot about that when
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: you were there.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: It was worse in those ten years prior, where a
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: lot of hangings in adverted commas happened. And the argument
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: was that we always believed that there was more to
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: the hangings than we're ever told, but we never knew,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: no one ever. It's like Epstein, who knows, you know,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: honestly people do, but the people were there well, but
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: they don't tell you, do they.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: So you think there were murders and ah division.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Undoubtedly, and unquestionably there were. And I was always worried
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: that that would be the case. Had I gone down
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: there five years earlier, I would never have come out.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: And I knew that. I knew that. That's why I
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: knew that I owed my life the people like Chris.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I knew that, and that was why I wrote so
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: much about him. I definitely owed my life to him
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: and people like other peop because he took the system
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: of He had himself purposely sent down there to break
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: the system. This is years after they bashed the shit
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: out of him and he did. He took the system
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: on and they broke it. And a lot of other
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: courageous quems, the stand Taylor's of the world. They broke
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: that system. They broke it with the help of a
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: lot of people outside, by the way.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Because Stantelli goes on to be the mastermind of the
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Russell Street bombing. Yeah, years later, a senseless, to be honest,
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: a senseless, nihilistic attack on society. Surely revenge. Do you
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: think it's revenge for.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: No, No, I've told you this before, Adam. It was
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: revenge on the police. You know. Platfus hung him out
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: the fifth story window of Russell Street.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Platforsts.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so, and Stan's eyes right wack. You know, they
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: hung that guy. He shied himself. He literally shit himself,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: and he admitted and he and I said, when he
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: admitted it to me at tears and he's but that's
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: what they did to him. That guy was so full
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: of revenge that I understood totally what had happened.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: That loss of dignity. We're talking about this self mutilation. Obviously,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: the famous example is Chopper Reid having his ears cut off.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I think it was by Kevin Taylor. Within h division.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: But there are other examples like Gary David, who was
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: chopping his penis of every chance.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: He got, well he did it twice three. Yeah, But
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Gary was on the edge of genuine psychiatric. He was
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: always on the cliff and always on the edge. Now,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: if you had have known his father, which I knew Rupert,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: I knew Rupert really well. His father was a mongol
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: of a man, and Gary had written about how his
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: father had actually put a nail through his foot into
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: the floor, like the guy was a psychopath. He really was,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: and he was a pedophile, which was even worse. So
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: it was no surprise that Gary took on a lot
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: of what his father would have imbued in him and
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: became the person he did. In the end, his MUTI
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: it's hard for us to understand.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: It, really is. I remember Chopper Reid making light of
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: it after a couple of times of chopping his memo off,
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: and I think they put it on once or twice,
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: and then then they put a little spigot to replace it,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: and so Chopper rather unkindly called him cooler Bar after
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: a wine cask, which is funny, but when you think
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: about what you're saying, this is a horrific thing. Imagine
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: that even the screw seeing a man's severed penis on
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: the trap of the door, imagine what goes through.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Their min Oh I look before him. Another guy who
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I'd written about, a fellow called Malcolm Murray, who was
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: He was under Bartholomew's psychiatric supervision in G Division and
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: he was on the edge of a terrible case. And
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: because he refused to take some of the medicine that
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: bar Folomew had prescribed him, they put him in Hays Division.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: So what does he do. He slices his testicles out
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: and leaves them on the trap door for the screws
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: to see. And what's the result of him doing that.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: They banned because at that stage he had a vegimite jar.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: They banned vegemite in Pentridge. That was the result of it. Honestly,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: even though you can still get Roosa.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Blows right, because Bartholemy is interesting because he was running
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: his own little social experiment within G Division and you
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: thought he would have had some compassion understanding of what
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: was going on in h Division, but no.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, he totally understood what was going on Hate Division.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: He worked hand in glove with the administration anyone who
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: played up like the Steve Cellars of the world. And
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Steve was probably the first person to take Hate Division
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: on in the late sixties and refused to obey any orders.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: So Bartholomew was and it didn't happen with Steve because
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: they wanted him out of there straight away, which they did.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: They put him back up to one of the divisions.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: But anyone else who played up in Hate Division, if
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: anyone sort of started punching on every time, like there
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: was one guy, Louis Sagetti who every time they opened
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Segogi sorry Sagogin, every time they opened the door, he
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: would just come out throwing punches. They certified him to
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Jayward our rat. Who do you think certified him? Follow you?
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: That was their major stick that they had that if
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you did not toe the line, you would be certified
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: to Jay Ward our Rat. I always knew that and
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: that I promise you that did worry me.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: Would that have not been better than h Division?
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: Ha ha?
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: No, mate, One of these days you want to do
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: something on Jayward. J Wrot was horrific, absolutely horroic.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Because we know Jayward through the fact that Jimmy Lofton
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: was there and he was Chopper's mate. And Chopper's really
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: foolish decision to try to kidnap a judge came from
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: a desire to get Jimmy out of our rat. Yes,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and I think Chop I got fourteen years for that,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: and that was but that thus begins the h division
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: experience for him. But so that was worse?
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: Was it?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Jay Ward's worth you actually looking into it? And again
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Jayward had its stages and different periods. A good friend
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: of mine who was in for double murder. He was
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: a barber who slit one of his customers throat. Always like,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: there's a certain type of psychiatric condition where you just
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: like that, you can be over the edge and you've
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: got no idea what you're doing. You are off, you're in.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: And I've heard these people break in prison. They break
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and they start screaming and smashing their head against the
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: wall and the blood curling. It's a horrific to hear
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: people do this. Alex was in this situation, and of course,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: what do you think They give him the job. They
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: gave him the job as a barber. Anyway, he breaks
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: one night and they send him up to Jayward. And
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: when he comes back, you always, and your prison time
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: stops when you're in Jayward, when you've been certified, your
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: prison time stops. It's like one followed the cooker's nest
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: and when he came back. Alex was a really good
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: friend of mine. And I said, Alex, I said, why
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: do they send you to He said, they sent me
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: up there to get shock treatment. Shock treatment by following
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: me wanted me to get shot treatment. I said, well,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: how'd you go? He said, I walked in the door
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and the screw comes up and goes smash. It was
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the best shock I ever fucking had.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: That's that's a close shave though, when you're barber slit.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: But we got our haircut by Really, you.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Didn't worry about when he said, tip your head back
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: a little bit.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: We're always worried. You got to remember, Bellow Millie was
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: also to barber.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: He was the longest serving prisoner in the H division
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: eleven years. Why did he spend so long in there? Oh?
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Because he'd killed a copper and they built hate division
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: for below Merely Below Merely was actually the first he
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: and the fellow called Kevin Taylor, no relation to Tantata,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: who had escaped and been caught were officially flogged. They
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: were the last people in in probably Australia to be
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: legally flogged with the Catto nine tales and as a result,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: at the time they officially built Haste Division, but Hates
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Division was already their previous It was a rock breaking
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: area where prisoners were sent there during the daytime, but
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: they would return to their normal divisions of a night time.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: There was no division for Hate suvision. The punishment was
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: there and the conditions were there. Now when I merely escape,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: they what we could in fifty eight, they built Hates
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Division and they put the toughest blokes you've ever said,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: the toughest screws. As you said before, that special squad
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: was set up to actually run it.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Because you even got different uniforms in Age Division as inmates,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: didn't you with the big cross on the back? No,
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: what was on the back?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: No? No what. I've seen this and I've read it,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: and this is good myths. AI does all this and
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: this total bullshit. Look, you had different uniforms in Hate
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: sub Vision because you were stripped off. It's no different
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: than going into a hospital where the first thing they
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: do is they strip you of your street weear you
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: wear their gowns. Why do you wear their gowns so
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: that the nurses can best effectively do their job. So
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: we do exactly the same, and Hate of vision. We
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: strip them your dignity and we build them back up
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: in our in the way we want them to be.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: So Hate's Division had exactly the same genes as the
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: rest of the other prisoners wore, except there was a
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: one inch wide white stripe down the side of both legs.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: There was a shirt that you wore that had a
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: little blue patch over the heart area front and back,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: and they used to say, if you try and escape,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: we know where to shoot. So that's what it was.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm remembering. That's fascinating now. I think one
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: of the most interesting critiques of H Division comes from
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Chopper Reed who said that he actually thrived.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: In there, but we're talking about a different time.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Well it was, but I think by the same token,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: he loved the discipline, he loved the authority. He actually
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: respected the screws and they respected him, and he became
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: the billet in H Division and got a lot of privileges.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: I think he had one of the cells next to
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: the screws station, and he loved it. There are a
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: lot of myths about how Chopper was used by the screws.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Maybe you can take the opportunity to dispell a couple
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: of those. We hear about prison rapes, we hear about bashings,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: these sorts of things. How would the screws actually use
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: a prisoner like Chopper?
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Read Well, now you've got to understand first of all,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: why someone's in hate division. There were people in there
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: who had broken the rules. They might have been fighting,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: they might have been escapees from other prisons. That's what
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: you call the legitimate hate sufficient, the legitimate hate division inmate.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: There were people there who were there for disciplinary reasons.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: They might have sworn at a screw, they might have
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: refused to have it. They might have had a duty
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: cell too often. They might have been abusive, and they're
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: sent down for a short period to hate subvision. Then
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: there were people who were there for their own protection,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: because in those days there was no informal protection unit.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: So we can get you to get that micro class.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Hate division was the area where people who needed to
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: be under protection were sent. When I was there, the
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: main guy in there was a fellow called Rex Dolphin,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: and Rex Dolphin had been sent down from be Division
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: because it was discovered by the Crims that have a nighttime.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: The screws were letting him out of his cell so
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: in the woodwork room he could turn these special battons,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: and the Crims found out about and his life was
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: in danger. So he spent his time down in Haste Division.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Now that's a totally different person than a person who's
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: down there for punishment. So Rex Dolphin becomes the billet.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: So you said that Chopper Red was the billet, didn't you.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Yes, I believe he was.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, the guy who was the billet in Haste Division
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: would have been there for a special reason and would
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: have been given that job for a special reason. Also,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: the screws had to trust him. There's no way you're
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: going to give the well It's job to someone who's
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: not on side with the screws. So you've got to
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: put that into that perspective. Chopper said he was never
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: bashing Hates Division and why would that have been.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: Well, he was only bashed when he tried to escape
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: for some head with a baton. Yes, he was getting
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: through a roof, that's right.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: But he said, I'd never bashed hate division. So put
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: that together, and that would.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: Have been a very rare occurrence, even in this later
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: period when we had h division light effectively totally totally.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: Now, the other thing that we've got a factor into
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: it is that it's easy to criticize Chopper. And I
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: make a point of never criticizing any living crew. But
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Chopper was a likable guy, a very likable person, and
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: it was easy to like him if you were a screw,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: just as it was easy to like him if you
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: were a krim. But he had the reputation of having
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: work with police, and once you've got that reputation, you've
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: got it for the rest of your life. True, you
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: cannot undog yourself as a crimp.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I think he has, though, I mean, this is
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: another podcast. I think he has because in the public's mind.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: They never saw him as a dog. I'm saying, undog yourself,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: you can only I'm talking about people who put him
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: on the dog, right. You can never undog yourself with
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: those people.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, because there's a dissonance around him. Because as you're
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: right when you say that, the criminal fraternity knew he
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: was an informer and worked with police. But the broader
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: public is still as these images of him as never
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: pleaded guilty and you know, death before designer and all
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: that sort of stuff, when in fact he goes from
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Penridge to Bendigo Jail to finish his stint, and then
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: the first thing he does when he comes out is
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: get onto the robbery squad in Melbourne becomes their informer exactly.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: But remember, Chopper has been marketed as a commodity very
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: successfully by people like John Sylvester. They marketed Chopper, made
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: a fortune out of him. He got nothing, he said,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: he got nothing. He probably got a lot, but who knows.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: But you've got more than nothing. But you're right, Chopper
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: was marketed. But I think you also used the cover
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: of those people, editors, journalists, Walkley Award winners and so forth,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: to sell a story that wasn't wholly true.
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that developed. It never started out like that.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: It developed like he originally started writing letters, and it
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: was the letters they put together. And then when he
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: read his first book, his first book, it's full of
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: bullshit about how I was forced to dig my own.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Grave and all that crap on the first page, I
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: think it is, and.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: You've got to laugh at that, but that's just good storytelling.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: And then he's marketed. He's marketed in a way where
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: this is the most ruthless guy in the world who
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: goes out the only people he hurts or other people
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: that deserve to be hurt, or let's market him, you know,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: chop it like I like the Choppers of the world.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: But I understood, you know, he was an addict. He
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: was Yeah, he's a drug addict.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: We can do this in another podcast. I'm actually going
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: to do an upcoming series listeners on the real Chopper
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: and my part in his final heist where he sold
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: a completely ridiculously full story about killing four people to
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: kill one. That's another that's another day.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: You should do the story on the people who fell
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: for it, because he made no secret of the fact
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: that it was bullshared. Everyone knew, but they wanted it
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: and they supported it, and they paid him for it.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: And we don't blame I'd never blame Chopper for that. Nope,
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: I say, good one, mate.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: And he looked after his family when a lot of
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: other cribs could not do that.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Good one.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: We will do it on another another day. But at
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: the end of your stint in h division, what was
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: it like going back to the mainstream population in the prison.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Well, they hadn't taught because I refused to break rocks,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: they hadn't taught me my lesson. So they sent me
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: to what's called Sea Division, the matyard and Sea Division.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Now the matyard is where they used to put all
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: the That's where they dumped everyone who they hated because
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: it was a big open yard where you made these
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: koya mattings with ancient machinery that was about one hundred
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: years out of date. And they put me in this
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: cell that was next to where the It was the
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: first cell next to the screws that had been used
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: as a storeroom for all the the onions and the
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: vegetables and what have you, where it was stuck and
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: it was the filthiest cell you've ever seen in your life.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: So I cleaned it up spotlessly, absolutely spotlessly, spent days
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: cleaning it up, polished the floors, did wash the wall
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: down in the moment like glean up. They put me
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: into the one nextit, which is even worse. They hated
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: me and so I had to spend three months there
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: and three months in the matyard. But there's a bit
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: of a subtextit we've skipped over that, and that was
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: that when I went to Hate's division, I was sent
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: down there because I had acted illegally as a spokesperson
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: during a potential rite when you weren't allowed to have
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: anyone as a spokesperson. And one of the screws had
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: come to me and asked me to talk to the
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: man and to sort of make certain there was nothing
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: was going to happen in a division. And I didn't
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: want it, but anyway, I finished up speaking to the
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: man and he said, yeah, you've got my permission to
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: do it. And I spoke over the radio about why
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: we were First of all, a division had never ever
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: been on strike ever in its history, because we had
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: night classes, and the governors had always threatened that if
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: a division ever played up or did anything wrong, they
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: would lose their night classes. Well, there were horrific rights,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: not rights, but potential rights where other divisions refused to
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: go to work, and a division never ever not gone
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: to work. So I've spoken to the man and they've
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: given me permission to speak on their behalf. So I've
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: drawn up a list of complaints. I said, okay, you
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: want me to speak on your behalf, But will you
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: back me if I make a decision on your behalf.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: They said, yes, Ray, we trust you, and of course
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: the Screws had given me permission to do it. Thinking
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk into going back to work, I said, right,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: we're on strike. And I got into the radio room
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: that night and talked to the whole division and said,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: we're on strike. We're supporting the rest of the rest
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: of the jail because they need us. Twenty minutes later,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: I'm having a shit, had the door open, said they're
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: all out there, all the right, get your toothbrush, you
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: run your way to hate the vision. I said why.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: They said, because you acted unofficially as a spokesperson. And
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: in that moment, I made a decision to just shut
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: my mouth. So if I had given that screw up,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: he would have lost his job. And I knew that,
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: and everyone else knew it, but they didn't know straight away.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: That's something that takes a while to filter through. And
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: ultimately I know that the Screws were dying to drop
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: off bashing me because they it had filed it through
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: that I covered for this guy. It was one of
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: their mates, and they were still they didn't like it
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: was the governor who was crooked me at the time,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: a fellow called Voden, and he hated the fact that
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: I'd refused to break rocks and blah blah, and it
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: had come from head office. You know, this guy's trouble maker.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: You've got a break in blah blah. And when they
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: set me up to Seed Division, there are a lot
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: of screws that understood that it was wrong for me
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: to have ever been in Haste Division, and they were
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: a little bit upset that I and everyone knew i'd
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: been bash you know like. And so I got sent
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: back to a division and that took another three months.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: And you, it could be argued, you came out quite rehabilitated,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: with a couple of couple of small transgressions. You kind
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: of went straight after your period in Pentridge. So h
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Division could be said to have done you some form
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: of positive good into a right and it did well.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: It's good.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if I became a writer down there.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: Which is fantastic. And I urge people look at your
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: works and we'll put some links to those by in
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: the show notes, because I think Ray is well worth reading.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: I've read a few of your things of course, But
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: by nineteen eighty H Division's gone. Yep, it's jaiker jiker,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: which is I will do that in the next episode
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: in this series. But tell me why did H Division
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: have to be closed down?
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Because I was released in nineteen seventy five and the
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: administration was telling the world that Hate's Division had changed.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: There was no longer rock breaking, no one was physically
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: badsh blah blah blah, and I knew it was bullshit.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: So I wrote a stage play and put the stage
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: play on in nineteen seventy seven, which was about Chris Flannery.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: And what happened was the first night the Minister for
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Social Welfare, a fellow called Brian Dixon, who was a
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: famous football but then a parliamentarian came along to the
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: play and during interval, which was half packed out, he's
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: challenged by all these people, how could you could you're
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: the Minister for Social Welfare, how could you allow this
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: to be happening? He said, I'm telling you right now
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: there is no such thing as rock breaking. This moment
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: in Age Division, a bloke steps forward shows him his hands.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: He says, two weeks ago I was in Hate's Division.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: His hands are all covered and blisters that week Hates divisions.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Rock breaking is officially stopped in Hate's Division, but there
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: was unbelievable cruelty still happening there nowhere there as ferocious
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: as it used to be. And all these complaints were
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: now going to the owardsman because the government has set
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: up a situation where if you had a complaint, send
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: it to the owardsman. So every prisoner was writing about
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: these complaints to the omardsmen. And the odmundsmen held an
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: inquiry into conditions in the Hate's Division in nineteen seventy
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: eight and he said the conditions are atrocious, and that's
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: when they never shut it down. But what they did
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: was they transferred the people who were in a Hate's
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: Division into this new concept as you mentioned earlier, Jiker Jiker,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: and that was where the transition period. But while Jiker
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Jiker was open, so was Hate's Division still open?
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Good rapp up. What is the legacy of all the
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: age divisions we had around the country do you think
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: in terms of the impact on prisoners and the consequences
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: for our society.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: The legacy is that there was a very small percentage
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: of people whom it affected in a way that brought
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: out the most dangerous site of them, and they had,
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: like a lot of their attitudes was look, there's no
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: such thing as just laws. It's bullshit. Look look what
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: they did to us and hate savision that was all illegal.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Yet no one as a result of the inquiry was
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: ever charged. No one was ever charged. So why should
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I adopt genuinely so called good values to live by?
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: Fuck it, I'll live the way I want to live.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: So there was a percentage of people that came out
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: with those attitudes. But you don't do things straight away
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: as a result of those attitudes. Those attitudes are just
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: nurtured within you. They're internalized. It's like having a tattoo.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: The tatoo's there forever and it only becomes a problem
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: if you need to be checked from malanoma. But if
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: you don't need to be checked for a malmenaim, it's
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: no problem.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Indeed, Well, thank you, Ray Mooney, not a few time today, pleasure.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: That was Ray Mooney, eighty one and a half years
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: of age, still not breaking rocks.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: You deserve to be don't worry about training with Dage Hedgecolt.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: You should be down in fucking h's division doing a
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: bit of fair incam training.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Well indeed, and people, if you want to look at
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: what's left of H Division, you can go to Penridge
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: in Coburg. There there's a portion of it's still there.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know why anyone would want to live in
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: that complex. It's a residential complex, that whole thing there,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: and then people go there for tourism and I think
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: it's full of anguish and misery in the residual aspects
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: of that. And you can read about H Division in
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: Ray's book The Ethics of Evil, and also look at
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Ray's play Every Night, Every Night, which I think is
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: one of a genuine Australian classic that people should read.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: And there should be another film. I think there was
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: a film. There should be another film anyway. And the
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: next episod we're going to talk about what happened after
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: H Division Jaiker Jaiker, which was a more darker, more
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: inhuman version of H Division that actually took its cues
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: from eighteenth century ideas of keeping prisoners under surveillance at
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: all times, with some idea that that would correct their behavior.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: It didn't, and it led to an absolute tragedy. We'll
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: deal with that in our next episode on my series
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: of Prisons within Prisons. But in the meantime, if you've
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: got a crime to report, please call crime Stoppers one
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: eight hundred, Triple three, Triple zero. If you don't trust
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: the police, like Ray, you can always email me Adam
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: Shanner writer at gmail dot com your inquiries. Your messages
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: will be treated with the utmost confidentiality. I'd love to
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: hear from other people who've been in h Division or
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Jiker Jiker or any of these prisons around the country.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I'd love to hear your stories as well. This has
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: been Adam shan for Real Crime.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: Thank you for listening, listening to this episode and supporting
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: this story. Independent storytelling that shapes the world is what
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: pod shape really cares about. Right now, There's thousands of
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: people listening to this show and our other true Crimes
• 54:16
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• 54:19
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• 54:25
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• 54:28
  Speaker 3: com to book a free call.