Latest / Infidels / How Hamas and the Media Turn Victimhood Into a Weapon | Kobi Michael
Transcript
- Richard Landes: We're joined today by Professor Kobi Michael, a senior researcher at the Miskov Institute and a visiting professor at the International Centre for Policing and Security, South Wales University, UK. He's also the former editor-in-chief of the journal Strategic Assessment. and we're discussing his extensive report on radicalization of Muslim communities in Europe. Kobe, can you tell us something about what got you involved in that? Because isn't that beyond, I mean, that's not what you normally work on. What got you involved? kobi michael: Yes, you are right. Actually, what brought me to be involved and enthusiastic about researching this this topic was of course October seventh, when I I noticed that immediately a day after, okay, on October eighth, demonstrations all over the world, mainly in the US campuses but also in the streets of of European capitals. demonstration against Israel and about genocide and and apartheid state when we are still fighting Hamas terrorists on our territory, okay? so I I understood that there is very very severe problem here and there is a very I would say substantive substantive essential influence of the Palestinian issue on on the on the Muslim communities in in Europe. And I began Richard Landes: Right. Some of us call it some of us call it Palestinianism, 'cause it's really nothing to do with the Palestinian people. kobi michael: Yes. And and then I look I had general knowledge and even more than general knowledge about Muslim communities and Islam in Europe, but it was not my my my focus in my my in my research. But when it it comes to the Palestinian issue, then it it becomes to be interesting for me as a as a researcher and I began research researching it. And I I I I focused on on six case studies on six countries on in in in West Europe, the the UK, Germany, Sweden, France, Belgium, and the UK. And I I tried to find out what is going there with the Muslim communities and with their radic radicalization processes among these communities. And the very wide research that I have accomplished with my my intern eventually found very very interesting findings about what what is going there in west europe with these muslim communities and with the radicalization process and i think that the that the European countries are facing a very severe threat a very severe problem I think that they began that began being aware to the to the reality. I think that they are not aware enough still. They are not aware enough. And I think that they are a bit late with all the measures that must be taken in order to prevent this process, this radicalization process. on the other hand, we see huge efforts. by external players like Turkey, like Qatar, and of course the Muslim Brotherhood, efforts that are done in order to base the political Islam in Europe, in the continent, and in order to accelerate these processes because at the end of the day There is the grand vision of the political Islam that we cannot deny, and the political Islam itself does not deny that they want to Islamize they want to Richard Landes: Right, openly says it once. Right. kobi michael: Islamize the entire continent, okay? Not only the entire continent, they want to Islamize the entire globe. This is the idea of the Umah. This is the political Richard Landes: Yeah, shit. Right. kobi michael: idea of the Uma that the entire globe, the entire humanity should be under the the Sharia, the Islamic law. Richard Landes: All five hundred ten million square kilometers in the words of Hamas leader. kobi michael: Yes, yes, exactly. They don't try to hide it. They don't try to hide it. This is this is their Richard Landes: Right. Okay. Right. And so one of the things that you point out in this report is that because they've misconceived it, the Europeans have ignored the n the nonviolent threat. They essentially didn't pay attention to anything that wasn't connected to violence. kobi michael: Exactly. And in in in this research we try to to make a comparison between the different case studies by addressing three levels. The first level was the demographic level. I mean to see what what the the numbers can tell us. And here there is Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: a there is a phenomenon that I was really astonished when I was exposed to this phenomenon. Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: the ratio of the of the the Muslim population in in Europe is increasing okay but not only because immigration and because because births you know Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: but also because more and more Christians or those who identified themselves as Christian stopped identifying themselves as Christians They became to be atheists, you know. And there are two cases in France and the in the UK that the Christians are not majority anymore. They are less than 50% of the entire population. So on the so on the one hand, you have immigration of Muslims, you have higher Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: rates of birth of of Muslims in comparison to the very low levels of birth among the the the Christians and the other population in Europe. And on the other hand, you have a decrease in the number of the Christians or those who identify themselves as Christians. Okay. So the UK and France are below the 50%. Belgium Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: is very close to the 50%. There are 51 point something. Germany is 61%. And Sweden is a is a bit more. But This is one level of of the the comparison that we did. The second level was the manifestation, the manifestation of the Islam in the daily life in these countries. Okay? How many mosques, how many halal supermarkets? You know, halal is the the the parallel to the to the Jewish culture. and the assumption is that if you have a growing number of mosques and growing number of halal markets, it means that there is a growing population, there is a growing demand. Growing demand means a growing population of of of the Muslims. And then some other manifestations Richard Landes: What wait, wait, wait. Not not just of the Muslims but of the observant Muslims. kobi michael: Yes, but Richard Landes: Yes. I mean kobi michael: but this is a very good indication from the statistical point of view to the to the scale of the Muslim population itself. Okay. Richard Landes: okay. All right. kobi michael: and we we choose some other examples of the Islamic manifestation, how the Islamic appears in the daily life in the in these in these cities, the old idea of the dawah, the place of the mosque and the imams. Okay, and we found by the way a dramatic increase in the number of mosques and imams in in these countries. And you know something? Most of the imams are not trained by the countries themselves. Most of the imams are trained by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, okay, and some other Muslim and mainly radical Muslim countries. Richard Landes: radical Muslim Brotherhood supremacist Islam. kobi michael: The the Muslim Brotherhood is is a is a is a phenomenon, a very unique phenomenon that cross all the case studies, and we see and we we show in the in the research how the the the political Islam, the Muslim Brotherhood establish themselves, and you know this is the way, this is the strategy of the political Islam, the idea of penetrating to the existing political systems and and occupying the these systems from the within, okay? And this is exactly what they do in these countries. And the third the third level of the of the analysis in this research was the the reactions of politicians and the elites to to this phenomenon and this is the this is the this is yes Richard Landes: Infidel, infidel politicians, infidel po politicians. kobi michael: and this is the idea of securitization okay and we saw and we show That more and more politicians eventually phrased the phenomenon as a security threat that justifies the use of extreme means. Okay. and I think that the the research is very very comprehensive and very concerning. and we have and we emphasized in this research that when we are talking about radical Islam It doesn't mean that all the Muslims that live in Europe are radicals, not at all. Okay. Most of the Muslims that live in Europe are not radical and they really want to be embedded in these societies. The problem the problem is is with the radical elements of the Islam. And the problem is that the radical elements, although they are not the majority, okay, they impact the majority. And another thing that we did in this research, another thing that we did in this Richard Landes: Right. In fact, it just a moment, let me ask you hold on, let me just ask you this in this regard particularly. we tend to think democratically. So we think that if fifty-five percent of the population wants something that, you know, the forty-five percent of the population kobi michael: Yeah. Richard Landes: should, you know, not necessarily give everything away, but you know, accede to the majority. Whereas here we're talking about possibly ten percent of the population, but their voice dominates the public sphere in a way that's completely out of tone. Their voice and their deeds. Okay. kobi michael: Their their voice and their deeds, their voices and their deeds. And we see how politicians are how Western politicians, mainly from the left, okay, when they need this electorate, they need this base of voters, okay, that are coming from the Muslim communities. They tend to appease the Muslim communities. And what is the idea of appeasing the Muslim communities? Is the idea of appeasing the radical Muslims, okay? And this is what we see in these countries when it comes to the left, to the progressives, to the social parties. We see that their electorate is based on Muslim communities. Okay? And the and the the most influential element among the Muslim communities are the mo the radical Muslims. So eventually the radical Muslims, although they are a very small group in numbers, they are very influential. And another thing that I want to tell you, Richard Landes: Right. Right. And of course kobi michael: with your permission, another thing that I want to tell you that in this research we try to distinguish between radicalism generally speaking and Islamic radicalism. And we characterized Islamic radicalism and we show in the in the in the research that there are very unique characteristics to radical Islam. which are different than regular radicalism. Richard Landes: And what are they? kobi michael: First of all, this is something that is related to religious terms. When we are talking about radicalism, mainly when it comes from the right or from the left, the religious doesn't play any significant role. Here the Richard Landes: Okay. kobi michael: Islam and the idea of ummah, which is you know something which is beyond the the the national level. The umma is something which is beyond the state, it's beyond the nationality. And this is something that Richard Landes: Global. kobi michael: does not does not exist among left and right extremism or radicalism. secondly, the the idea of of the superiority that they they they see to the to the Islam on the other on the other religions, okay, and the idea that they want to impose the Sharia law, the Islamic law. Richard Landes: Right. Right. kobi michael: and Then all the role of the communities themselves and mainly the mosques and the imams, okay, that play a very significant role in the daily life of these communities, and eventually these are I would say these are platforms that are used by the radical Muslims in order to educate the communities and to use them for recruiting people that will serve the radical Islam. And there are some other very unique characteristics that Richard Landes: Okay. kobi michael: distinguish Islamic radicalism from regular radicalism. Richard Landes: Right. And yet and yet there's a strong alliance between particularly the left radicals and the the Ji I call them Jihad or caliphaters. Right. kobi michael: Yes. Yes, yes. And this is how and you know what is the common dominator? The common dominator is Israel and the Jews, okay? Because Israel Richard Landes: Right. So that's what I wanted. kobi michael: Israel is the ultimate Israel is the ultimate manifestation, I would say, or the ultimate articulation of the so called colonialism, imperialism, apartheid, genocide, and all Richard Landes: Everything bad. kobi michael: of all of these progressives that are that that come you know, from the colonialist countries that invented the term of colonialism, like the UK, Spain, of course France, even Germany and Portugal, they came from these countries and they feel Richard Landes: And when they invented it and they when they inv when they invented it, they thought it was a good idea. Right. Right. Now that it's no longer a good idea the Jews were the ones. kobi michael: Yes. But now you know this is it is not in fashion anymore and they are anti colonialism and now they have they have a scapegoat. Now they have Israel which is the the ultimate Richard Landes: Right. All right. So right. So let me ask you on this. It seems like what happened on October seventh took the whole game to a new level. Because instead of pictures of Palestinians suffering, it was actually pictures of Palestinians making Israelis suffer that kicked off. The demonstrations in favor of the Palestinians. Up until this point, they had always been demonstrated for as victims. And now, in their bloodiest deeds, kobi michael: Yeah. Richard Landes: really genocidal deeds, they were able to set off a new round of radicalization within the European communities. Also in the United States, but we're talking about the European communities here. In some senses the the alarm of the what do you call it securit securitization? kobi michael: Securitization. Richard Landes: Yeah. Of the the securitization forces was an alarm at seeing what kinds of events abroad could trigger these kinds of behaviors in Europe. And you know you probably remember that. The origins of the Muslim street in Europe go back to the year 2000 and the Antifada and the demonstrations around Muhammad Adoua and then the demonstrations around Janine. This already brought out a very extensive presence of angry Muslims demonstrating in the streets of Europe. But if I understand, this is a whole new level. kobi michael: Yes, unfortunately this is an upside down universe, you know. and as I told you before, it was an excuse for all of these progressives to to show out their hatred towards Israel and this is something that makes them to feel good with themselves about their heritage, their history, their countries, where there are the Israelis who are committing a genocide war, okay, and committing war crimes. and and this is also an outcome of a very long, I would say, indoctrination that was made mainly by Qatar and its money for many years, mainly in the campuses, mainly in the international media, mainly among politicians. and the the the soil was very very frettled in this regard you know we everything ev everything was Richard Landes: Well prepared. Right. Right. kobi michael: ready for this eruption and i think that that the palestinians mainly when it comes to Hamas and we have to remember El Jazeera and its very significant role in this regard. We have Al Jazeera in Arabic and we have Al Jazeera in English. So all of these together with our unfortunately very lousy work with regard to what I call cognitive warfare, Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: eventually ended with these results. Richard Landes: One of the issues that you raise is that because of the way things were defined, so that anybody who was suspicious of Islam was labeled a right wing xenophobe, Islamophobe, that in fact there's no center discussing this issue. It's either the left saying there's nothing going on here, don't even pay attention, like the economist's editorial. Or on the other hand, there are people who are trying to talk or then it's the far right parties who are the ones who we're defending, but there's no sane center discussing these issues. kobi michael: Yes. And unfortunately this is a phenomenon for that lasts many, many years and even at least two decades. And we slaved ourselves. We I mean the West, okay? We slaved ourselves to political correctness and and all the idea of Richard Landes: Enslave Darcy. kobi michael: diversity, inclusion, you know, and all of these noble ideas. and and actually the the the The the paradox is that all of these radical elements, Islamic radical elements, they they don't think in democratic terms, okay? They don't think in liberal terms, but they use all the platforms that are provided by the liberals and the democrats and the democratic countries in order to gain control, okay, and to arm these these countries and these societies. And unfortunately the progressives find I would say a sort of a prospect to cooperate with them because they believe that by cooperating with them they will be able to promote their noble ideas. And Richard Landes: Wow. kobi michael: I would like to see I would like to see the first gay or lesbian, progressive gay or lesbian and generally speaking most of them are considered to be liberals, okay, or progressives. Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: I would like to see the first one of them comes to Gaza, okay? And live in Gaza as a free lesbian or Richard Landes: Right, right. Okay. Right. kobi michael: a free guy, a gay. Richard Landes: Right, right. So at the end of your your research project, you write the following. You write about how this is this threat is not episodic, it's structural, it targets the very coherence of European political communities, and you write European states thus confront a moment of strategic truth. Continued reluctance to address Islamist radicalization as a systemic ideological challenge rather than as a marginal social pathology risks accelerating a dual collapse, the erosion of internal security on the one hand, and the delegitimization of liberal democratic governance on the other. If I could translate that into simple language, you're basically saying we need To address the issue of Islamic supremacism, which is a ferociously regressive ideology. It's everything that the West is and democratic societies do to discourage in their people. And we need to fight that, and we're not. I mean, isn't it? Shouldn't it be the easiest fight to have for Democrats to say to the supremacist Muslims? No. kobi michael: Yeah yeah. You know you know you know you know something this this this is something that that takes our take takes us back to the to the beginning of of our discussion why why Israel okay and why they are so I would say furious towards Israel or about Israel. Because Israel Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: is a democratic state. decided eventually to fight and to defend itself and to defend its Richard Landes: To defend itself against jihad. kobi michael: and to defend and to defend its essence and freedom. And unfortunately when it comes to the free world, generally speaking, this free world I would say gave up on its duty to defend its values and to defend its freedom and to defend its democracy and its society. And they believe that by appeasing the radicals, okay, they will be able to gain more security and they will be able to defend themselves. And they are totally wrong in this regard. You cannot appease radicals. You have to fight radicals. You have to eliminate radicals. And when it comes to to the to the radical Islam, okay, you cannot appease radical Islam. You cannot live peacefully with the radical Islam. You have to fight. The radical Islam and you have to eliminate the radical Islam. Eliminating the radical Richard Landes: All right. So kobi michael: Islam doesn't mean to eliminate the Muslims, not at all, okay? Richard Landes: I gotcha. I gotcha. So but if I understand you correctly, y you're saying that the European Western public sphere dislike of Israel I I wrote a whole book called Can the Whole World Be Wrong about how Israel is the Antichrist, the sort of, you know, progressive antichrist. that that Israel this this notion That is widely adopted in the West, that Israel is responsible for the conflict here, is actually an act of cowardice in which they don't want to take the side of people fighting for democracy and they hope to buy off the enemies of democracy by throwing us under the bus? kobi michael: This is a combination of you know their own history and they their feelings of guilty about all the era of colonialism and the and the oppression of the indigenous in the African continent or in the Far East. And Richard Landes: Right. Right. kobi michael: they believe that by fighting now what is considered in their eyes as colonialism. which means Israel and Zionism, they will be able to compensate in this way or another on their past. And secondly and and and Richard Landes: Right. No, no, there's no question that they think that way, but it's the opposite. kobi michael: and and secondly and secondly they really believe that they can appease the radicals. And they believe that by attacking Israel, they believe that by isolating Israel, criticizing Israel, shaming Israel, they will be able to appease The radicals, and then the radicals will come and hug them and will say, Hey, Richard Landes: Huh. kobi michael: now we can be very good friends and we want to live peacefully with you. And this, of course, is a very wrong way of thinking. They will not be able to appease them. This is something which is perceived by the radicals as weakness, and as much Richard Landes: Yes. kobi michael: as they will continue to criticize Israel and attacking Israel, they will be perceived more weaker. In the eyes of these radicals. Richard Landes: So in other words, they think they're being brave by siding with the underdog against colonial Israel, whereas in fact they're just submitting to their enemy. kobi michael: Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. And this is exactly the danger that the European continent is facing these days. Richard Landes: All right, so what's your prognosis for Europe? kobi michael: I think that the European continent as a whole, okay, must reach to a sort of an I would say a cons consensual policy with regard to the radical Islam and to eliminate it. I mean no no any you know compromises that that will be done when it comes to the radical Islam, just to eliminate it and even in very very aggressively because with the radical Islam you cannot play you know very by using soft power so called okay? Richard Landes: So d does that mean deportations? Right. Does that mean deportations? kobi michael: It means deportation, it means to to prevent them from from organizing themselves, it means to prevent them from demonstrating in the streets, it means to run after them when it comes to terrorism. and it means to be very cautious when it comes to immigration and to be very selective when it comes to immigration and to to to interfere in the in the in the social in the social fabric of the Muslim communities in order to assure that imams that were trained by radical countries and by radical elements will not be will not be elements that that incite the the the the people there to to to strengthen to strengthen the Richard Landes: That w that would presumably be the first round of deportations. Right. kobi michael: control over the mosques and what is done there in the mosques and And I think that together with that some educational program and some welfare efforts when it comes to the communities themselves, okay, in order to to to integrate them more successfully. But the idea that in some places, you know, we use the very massive and comprehensive research about no go-zones in Europe. Cities Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: a citizen neighborhood that the authorities cannot go in. Cannot go in. Richard Landes: Right. And what did you find? kobi michael: And we found that there are there are there is a growing number of such suburbs, neighborhoods and even cities that the police cannot enter, that the state authorities cannot enter, and these suburbs and these neighborhoods are a sort of autonomies in these countries, okay? And all the the the radicalism is prospering there in these in these Richard Landes: Right. kobi michael: places because there are no authorities. The state is not there. Richard Landes: Okay, but but the Economist article on this subject outright said there are no no go zones. kobi michael: So let them let them read the research. It was not written by me, okay? It was written by Richard Landes: All right. kobi michael: a group. Let them let them read the the reports of the French intelligence and the German intelligence about Richard Landes: All right. kobi michael: the political Islam and the and the radical Islam in their countries. Richard Landes: You you will send us those reports and we will put them up at the page with this interview. kobi michael: They they are all of these are coded in the in the research but I can send you. No problem. Richard Landes: All right, very good. Excellent. Great to talk with you, Kobe. kobi michael: Thank you, Richard. Richard Landes: I'll be back in touch.