Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 177:35-40. Interest: Business Dealings & Changes; “Keep the Change” Gift; Why Is Ribis in Yoreh Deah

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Yoreh De’ah 177:35-40. Interest: Business Dealings & Changes; “Keep the Change” Gift; Why Is Ribis in Yoreh Deah · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:01
  Good morning, Kodish Tov. We are continuing Helkhote
• 0:04
  repeat and kuf einzine Lahmed. Hey, OK, so this is continuation
• 0:12
  of Helkhos Iska. Two people are making a business
• 0:16
  partnership. In this case a little different
• 0:19
  than usual. Usually it's one to 11 investing
• 0:22
  partner goes to 1 managing partner.
• 0:24
  Here we have Shanayam, Shikibu, Iska me Ekhad Lisman.
• 0:29
  OK, So Lezman is important, OK. You have two people who got the
• 0:37
  became the managing partner for one investing partner.
• 0:40
  He gives it to two guys and he says you guys run the business
• 0:44
  together. All right.
• 0:47
  And for a specific amount of time, Yeah.
• 0:54
  And during this time in shown in LO, so if one guy goes to the
• 1:04
  other guy, now you have two managing partners and he says,
• 1:07
  listen, he gave us money to manage and we know there's this
• 1:11
  whole Palga, Palga thing. I tell you what one guy tells
• 1:14
  the other, you take half and I take half and basic and each of
• 1:20
  us are going to have our own Palga Palga.
• 1:23
  And so can you do that? So in other words, these two
• 1:26
  partners might think that they work better separately or they
• 1:31
  can't agree on what's a better, what's going to be more
• 1:33
  profitable. So each one between the two of
• 1:36
  them wants to split up on how they do, on how they work.
• 1:39
  But otherwise, everything's the same.
• 1:41
  It should make no difference to the investing partner.
• 1:44
  Nihalaka is Ain Shomimil. No one can listen to them.
• 1:47
  The other partner should not listen to this guy's idea.
• 1:50
  He's not allowed to even if the guy, the man at this guy who has
• 2:02
  this idea of splitting up, he says, listen, I'm going to take
• 2:05
  responsibility for for your half as well.
• 2:09
  Even if anything happens, I'm going to pay for it.
• 2:11
  So there's no nothing to worry about.
• 2:13
  OK, So then it's still that feel, right?
• 2:17
  Because the investor partner might be worried that now he
• 2:20
  might lose the money if there's not two of them.
• 2:23
  But he's guaranteeing that that portion to that guy, that feel
• 2:26
  in Yomar Yisha era, Karen Bain, Sheneneno Villonaclak Areva
• 2:32
  ain't Shamimo. Even if he tells us the only
• 2:35
  thing we're going to split between us differently is the
• 2:39
  profit, but not the principal. No matter what, we don't allow
• 2:45
  whatever the guy's idea might be, bottom line, we don't allow
• 2:47
  them to split up. And the reason and the given in
• 2:50
  the gamar is simple because the investing partner gave over the
• 2:54
  business to be managed by two guys together.
• 2:57
  He feels two guys have better mazel or the two of them are
• 3:00
  going to, you know, watch over each other and they'll end up
• 3:03
  doing a Better Business job. And that's what he was Maqbiran.
• 3:06
  And therefore they're not allowed to go against, right?
• 3:09
  You don't this is not a a regular case of malva where you
• 3:12
  can do whatever you want, right? We had this already.
• 3:14
  Llamadvov, yahir amakabel ASEC Guzman katsu.
• 3:19
  Oh, but the shock just pointed out, if it's not for a specific
• 3:23
  Zaman, then obviously it depends on the minagamakum when they're
• 3:28
  allowed to. And at some point they might be
• 3:30
  allowed to stop working because we're going to see that now in
• 3:33
  Llamadvov. OK, Yahir Hamakabel Asik lizman
• 3:37
  katsu. I'm a Kabul Yahoo loxer Bokadin
• 3:41
  Pol shahozer bachezi Ayong. Anytime you have a an employee,
• 3:48
  he accepts the job is he's allowed to quit midday even
• 3:52
  though he was hired for a full day, he can quit midday and
• 3:54
  said, you know what? I have enough, right?
• 3:56
  It's he may not want to get hired again.
• 3:58
  That's his that's his risk. That's his problem.
• 4:00
  But he's allowed to do it and he gets paid for the hours that he
• 4:03
  worked. But when you hire him ubal Hama
• 4:07
  OT Eno Yahoo locks locks or but once you hire somebody for a
• 4:13
  day, you're stuck with him for the full day.
• 4:15
  So too, when with this ASIC, the the investor, he stuck with him
• 4:20
  for the amount of time that they agreed to.
• 4:23
  But the other guy can back out anytime, all right?
• 4:26
  Like in the previous case, the two of them could could back out
• 4:30
  together. But they can't start changing
• 4:32
  the parameters as we had before. You can't change what
• 4:35
  merchandise you buy for OK Lam and Zion havero lika quebehem
• 4:45
  pirot amarcit scar loye lokaya bishelo bishelo.
• 4:55
  So again, here you have the investing partner gives the
• 4:59
  managing partner money and he says go buy fruit, produce,
• 5:03
  whatever with this money. And they have this isca
• 5:05
  relationship, they're going to share the profit.
• 5:08
  So this the managing partner cannot divvy up and say, well,
• 5:14
  Palga's Milva and Palga is Picadon and therefore half, half
• 5:20
  with your half, I'm going to buy you a barley, my half, I'm going
• 5:25
  to buy wheat. And I think that wheat is going
• 5:28
  to be more profitable. You can't do that.
• 5:31
  You have to everything has to be 5050.
• 5:33
  Everything has to be equal. You can't spend each half on
• 5:37
  different things. If you're going to end up buying
• 5:39
  two different produce, then each produce is going to be 5050 has
• 5:43
  to be completely fair and equal. OK, next payroll.
• 5:53
  So again similar halach of what we learned.
• 5:56
  You have a regular iska and you tell them to buy perot with it,
• 6:01
  but you don't specify which perot, which merchandise.
• 6:06
  But you only thing you said was perot.
• 6:08
  If it was anything then you could buy anything.
• 6:10
  But if you say perot, OK, Ehbrahim khomein Shi yertse.
• 6:14
  If you didn't specify and use the word perot, you can buy any
• 6:18
  kind of fruits, vegetables, produce, whatever you want, even
• 6:22
  animals, as animals also are can be included in the expression of
• 6:29
  pirot avala loykak behem look kissuth vilokalian.
• 6:35
  But you can't now start buying clothing and dishes or
• 6:38
  furniture, that's for sure not included in the word payroll.
• 6:42
  So there's no there's no room to be able to include anything that
• 6:46
  it might include. That's that's normally included
• 6:49
  that's understood between the two of them, that's much
• 6:53
  anything that's not he cannot deviate from what they agreed
• 6:56
  on. OK.
• 7:12
  First thing, he gives money to his friend, managing partner
• 7:14
  leek notbehem peris and he tells them buy fruit, right to get to
• 7:20
  share the profits. 5050 regular case of ISCA that we keep having
• 7:24
  Rashi Leek note gam la Osmo me Oto Hamin.
• 7:30
  Now while he's the managing partner was given, let's say
• 7:34
  $100 to make a business to make, to make money out of it, it
• 7:40
  takes $100. The managing partner has his own
• 7:42
  wallet, another $100 to invest. No, no, no, it's a managing
• 7:55
  partner. The managing partner is allowed
• 7:58
  to invest his own money. He has $100 in his pocket.
• 8:02
  At the same time, he can go and invest while he's working, as
• 8:06
  long as he's working with this deal.
• 8:08
  This deal is going to be let's say a month or a year or
• 8:11
  whatever. However long they make this
• 8:12
  deal. This managing partner is allowed
• 8:15
  to invest his own money as well into a similar ISCA, into a
• 8:21
  sorry, into a similar business. He's allowed to buy the same
• 8:24
  merchandise or different merchandise.
• 8:28
  It's not OK. There's no problem with this.
• 8:33
  So that exactly the shock points out before, you can't do that in
• 8:36
  the store because you're an employee in the case of the
• 8:40
  store and as long as you're sitting in there, you're on the
• 8:44
  owner's time. Here, you're basically an
• 8:47
  independent contractor per SE. You're independent.
• 8:50
  Exactly how you want to qualify it depends on the case, but
• 8:53
  basically you're a managing partner, but you have freedom.
• 8:56
  No one tells you when to clock in and clock out and so
• 9:00
  therefore and no one says you know, you can't you can't do any
• 9:03
  business for the next year. You can't do anything in the
• 9:06
  night and day on your own. So anyways, his hours are free.
• 9:09
  He's allowed to invest on his own.
• 9:10
  However this he's capitalizing on the fact he's buying
• 9:14
  wholesale. OK, he's benefiting to buy more
• 9:17
  wholesale could be very good. You're allowed to capitalize on
• 9:21
  on volume. OK, ubilvad.
• 9:23
  However, your small caveat, I think you know every case will
• 9:27
  goofy, but I think it's going to be clear when you'll analyse
• 9:30
  each case of MISA. The point is it must be clear
• 9:42
  which merchandise belongs to who.
• 9:46
  Is it this investment that you're working together or is it
• 9:49
  this private investment from the managing partners, private
• 9:54
  funds? It just has to be clear if you
• 9:57
  buy it all at once. So then it could all be mixed
• 9:59
  in. But if, if it wasn't bought at
• 10:01
  the exact same time, so then the merchandise might be a little
• 10:06
  different or the value might be different.
• 10:09
  And then when you sell it, the profit's going to be different.
• 10:12
  The point is, it just has to be clear that you're not cheating
• 10:16
  the investing partner. As long as you don't cheat the
• 10:19
  investing partner that he makes less money because let's say he
• 10:22
  would have profited more and you would have profited less.
• 10:24
  And now you're mixing it all together, he's losing.
• 10:27
  So as long as you're not making sure that it's clear and no one
• 10:31
  he's not losing, it's definitely no problem, OK.
• 10:41
  OK, let's get the each case has to be analyzed, but that's
• 10:45
  that's the basic principle men hanotain ma outla calvaro person
• 10:50
  gives money to his friend Lekak Bahem Perot Lamar.
• 10:57
  So a person investing partner gives money to his friend to buy
• 11:00
  Perot. Again, the same case of Isca the
• 11:02
  Omer, but then the macabre we're calling the macabre.
• 11:08
  He's accused to be the macabre. He says Lola kahti.
• 11:11
  What do you mean? I never took your money.
• 11:14
  So a in OK whatever the case is a in LO Allah ella tar omet,
• 11:26
  whatever the case is, if you don't have proof that he took
• 11:31
  your money or he does, you don't have proof that what profit he
• 11:34
  made, then you cannot, you cannot extract it from him.
• 11:38
  If they go to Baisden and fight it out, you have no proof that
• 11:41
  you lose the EME mozi mehalvairo al of haraya the EME ish adim.
• 11:48
  But if you do have witnesses, shill laka that he did use your
• 11:52
  money, like you said, use the money and bought something
• 11:55
  mishlovak or something umm Mahar and then he sold it and made a
• 12:01
  profit. Modsi enri menu BA alcorco.
• 12:04
  If you have, if you're able to have witnesses for such a
• 12:07
  scenario, this is actually be very appropriate for the next
• 12:14
  the Shah at the end and hetter iska.
• 12:17
  So anyways, we're talking about Iska here and you don't have
• 12:20
  witnesses to prove that he made a profit.
• 12:24
  So then you can. So if you do have witnesses,
• 12:28
  then you can go to court and you can extract the money from him
• 12:31
  fair and square. You have witnesses that he took
• 12:33
  your money and what the prophet was the IM shalak baam bifinet,
• 12:38
  shalak baam yad bifinet adim OSHA almar bifinetim Sheikh
• 12:44
  Joser Bo michelikhuto kanella Asma.
• 12:49
  If the macabre used the money for himself and there's
• 12:53
  witnesses that he took the money and used it for himself or he
• 12:57
  says in front of them, listen, I'm not working for you anymore,
• 13:00
  I'm taking the money and I'm working for myself.
• 13:03
  So then in such a case, then it might be about Gazan and but
• 13:07
  then you can then you have a right because he himself did it
• 13:11
  to himself that you see that he took your money and now he's
• 13:15
  going to have to return your money.
• 13:18
  There might not be no profit because at this point it would
• 13:21
  be Ribis like we we had the case, but OK, so that's as Rama
• 13:27
  says really this Simon. We'll see more in detail when
• 13:30
  you get to Khoshin Mishbat Coppagion.
• 13:34
  Just want to point out the Shah over here, the end of the Shah.
• 13:38
  So he discusses what anytime you have a sphaker didina and you're
• 13:43
  not sure what to do. So we know the general rule in
• 13:45
  halacha is Amotzi mecha Vera al ofaraya.
• 13:48
  He just points out that by helchus ribis, it's also a din
• 13:52
  of isser. We know that sometimes there's a
• 13:55
  little bit of a tug of war between the two.
• 13:59
  Do we look at the case more as mammon or do we look at more as
• 14:05
  isser So we ribis. So we know sometimes you might
• 14:08
  be high of medin, you're mammonis, but it's asser medin
• 14:13
  ribis. Anyway, the point is there's an
• 14:16
  opinion that says because it's ribis and anytime you have a
• 14:20
  Suffolk even of it's ribis derisa or derabana, since it
• 14:25
  might be sveka derisa, we say sveka derisa lacomra then
• 14:29
  perhaps you should go lacomra on the bastin should be motzi
• 14:32
  mimenu. The Shah disagrees with that
• 14:35
  opinion and he basically says anytime you have a case of a
• 14:39
  Suffolk Derisa Derabana in Motzin Mimenu, even if ROV post
• 14:45
  scheme say it's river Suitsa de Araisa, you still cannot extract
• 14:51
  the the basin should not extract the money from him.
• 14:55
  Again, if it becomes like that's what's Anik bhala halakha.
• 14:58
  So that's another story. But if it's the case that we
• 15:00
  still leaving as on some level of a Suffolk, he says the basin
• 15:06
  should threaten her, scare him or threaten him and telling him
• 15:11
  that it's an Isser, that it's likely to be an isser Dar Isa
• 15:14
  and you should not do such a thing and you should return the
• 15:16
  money. But if the the if the guy in
• 15:19
  court doesn't care, the lender doesn't care and he wants his
• 15:22
  money. Therefore he says the Baesden
• 15:25
  should not take the money from him because it's it's at the end
• 15:29
  of the day, it's a Suffolk din of money.
• 15:33
  And when it comes to to to Suffolk Ribis, so we still say
• 15:38
  Amozu Mekhalvera Alavaraya, quote some for an example, we're
• 15:42
  going to see later on the imatinos kuhuna and bahor.
• 15:45
  Sometimes we say even if there's a mitzvah involved, Bezdin still
• 15:51
  stays out of it. Now what I just want to point
• 15:56
  out real quick before we finish today, this is interesting.
• 16:01
  So I don't know if we mentioned this when we started, but we'll
• 16:04
  mention it when we end. Why is Hilkos Ribis here in the
• 16:08
  middle of Yuridea? So if you haven't noticed, when
• 16:11
  you turn the page, the next Simon is on Fuku SA Goem.
• 16:16
  We haven't left the topic of Hilkos of Orezara or Goem.
• 16:21
  So why is it in this topic? So the Bach says because ribis,
• 16:27
  a big part of ribis is lending to Goem.
• 16:31
  So it's appropriate and it happens to be, if you look in
• 16:34
  the Gemara, it's in Baba Mitziya and the where the Rambam places
• 16:38
  it, it's much both places, the Gemara and the Rambam.
• 16:40
  It's more in the Helkos Khoshi Mishbat.
• 16:43
  But the tour decided to put it in here because it's related
• 16:47
  also to it's very related to goem, right Ribister by goem.
• 16:53
  Originally it was mutter, then became asur, then became mutter
• 16:56
  again. All right.
• 16:57
  We had that in the beginning. Also some point out that Ribis,
• 17:02
  like we just mentioned is more of the topic of Isser versus
• 17:07
  Mamo and Nezik. Hoshin Mishpat is clearly in
• 17:11
  general. I mean, obviously it's all
• 17:15
  Sukimen love him as well, but it's Maman and Nezik here.
• 17:19
  It's more of Isser. And your idea is more about
• 17:24
  Isser OK Isserim. And just one last thing.
• 17:27
  I'll I'll I'll I'll say over the shame or Moshe Askar because
• 17:32
  Hilkos of what Izar is also an Indian of for the opposite of we
• 17:36
  don't want to do Kfira and lending money on with ribis to
• 17:42
  another Jew and not believing that Hashem will take care of
• 17:46
  you when you take care of others also.
• 17:48
  And when the Torah tells you to lend to help someone when he's
• 17:51
  in need is on some level of Kfira but got to cut a spark was
• 17:57
  the and his mitzvos fine. I want to share another
• 18:01
  interesting case. This comes up from Ruvin Ruvin
• 18:06
  Shane, you mentioned this yesterday.
• 18:08
  What happens without? I will not say over all the
• 18:10
  details, but basically I'll simplify the case.
• 18:15
  It's more mostly accurate, not 100%, but we'll see.
• 18:19
  Basically he went to purchase something for his mother-in-law.
• 18:23
  OK the details are not 100% accurate, but basically he went
• 18:26
  to purchase something for his mother-in-law for in a store for
• 18:32
  clothing and the purchase was let's say 250 shekel and then so
• 18:40
  he paid for it. So the halacha is when you pay
• 18:43
  for it. So it depends who owns it,
• 18:46
  depends if you are buying it for yourself or if you are buying
• 18:50
  for the other person and who owns it at the time of the
• 18:53
  purchase. So normally we assume, again,
• 18:56
  I'll can summarize this also from Serle Reisman has the case
• 19:01
  when you, when you buy it, we normally assume when you, you're
• 19:06
  giving the person a loan and it's belonging to that person,
• 19:09
  you're going to this store, you give your credit card, he's he's
• 19:12
  asking you to buy it for him. This is again question who owns
• 19:15
  it right away. The general assumption is the
• 19:19
  one who wants it owns it right away.
• 19:21
  You paid by you paying you gave a loan and in the case was there
• 19:28
  was a whole hat. Then she wanted to return it and
• 19:30
  there was a huge hassle that came out of it and she's and
• 19:34
  then at the end of the day, however, it worked out not to
• 19:37
  get to the however it was she got a it was another purchase,
• 19:41
  but whatever she got a voucher Ezekui for 500.
• 19:46
  And then again, let's say if she even told it directly to him or
• 19:50
  whatever who I was through she now he got a voucher for 500 and
• 19:56
  she said just keep the 500 for yourself that she ended up
• 20:01
  losing on a different credit card.
• 20:02
  Wherever he ended up getting a voucher, he bought it for 250
• 20:07
  and now he got a voucher from his mother-in-law for 500.
• 20:11
  Is that mutter? So we were thinking that perhaps
• 20:16
  or. Probably it is mutter in this
• 20:18
  specific case because of any one of the three reasons.
• 20:22
  Number one, he's getting the extra 250 because it's a huge
• 20:26
  Tierra and you're allowed to get money extra when it's for
• 20:31
  Tierra. Another reason is because he
• 20:34
  didn't get cash back, he got a voucher.
• 20:36
  So he's essentially buying the voucher and you always it's and
• 20:40
  that's also could be a bunter. Also, it's a close relative who
• 20:44
  sometimes gives gifts for that amount and so therefore it could
• 20:50
  be mutter. I'll just quote from real quick
• 20:54
  when paying paying paying back a loan.
• 20:57
  This is from Reisman in chapter 1 page 43.
• 21:03
  When paying back a loan. So doesn't always have exact the
• 21:08
  the borrower might not always have exact change.
• 21:10
  So he says if the amount is little and insignificant, not
• 21:15
  like in our case, but in general, it's usser.
• 21:18
  If it would be a large amount of ribis, it's the abundant, of
• 21:23
  course. But if it's an insignificant
• 21:26
  amount of change, again, it depends on the people who are
• 21:29
  dealing with what's called insignificant.
• 21:30
  But if it's a very small amount, whether it's pennies or dollars
• 21:35
  or even a little more, it depends on the what's going on.
• 21:38
  If it's considered insignificant then it's mutter according to
• 21:42
  many and that's how you pass if it's regarding the purchase.
• 21:46
  So he said the same thing that we said that it's all that we
• 21:48
  assume. Like if someone buys it for you,
• 21:52
  we assume who owns it right away unless it's stipulated
• 21:56
  otherwise. If it's stipulated that UV
• 22:00
  bought it and owned it, you're allowed to sell it for a profit
• 22:03
  to someone else afterwards. I mean he wasn't.
• 22:06
  They weren't meant to exchange it.
• 22:08
  Normally you buy something for someone and then later you give
• 22:10
  the item and exchange the money. So if you have in mind that the
• 22:14
  buyer is owning it instead of giving a loan, that's one way.
• 22:18
  It'd be a mutter also he says, right?
• 22:23
  So only it's only a mutter if it's insignificant or like you
• 22:28
  said, if someone's accustomed to giving gifts or it's very common
• 22:32
  with children or parents, it can be either way.
• 22:35
  Usually with children, you say keep the change and that's not a
• 22:39
  problem, or you tell them explicitly keep the extra money
• 22:45
  for the effort to go shopping for you or for me, whatever.
• 22:49
  So then he says that's all he writes.
• 22:51
  That's also OK if they're accustomed to give gifts or you
• 22:55
  tell them it's not for the loan, it's for the effort.
• 22:59
  OK, fine. We'll stop here.
• 23:02
  But I will actually spend just a few minutes because I want to
• 23:05
  recap. We spend so much time on Iska.
• 23:08
  We're just going to quickly go overhead to Iska, but we'll stop
• 23:10
  because of the time.