Latest / When Will They Learn? / Episode #3 Finally, AI!

Transcript

Episode #3 Finally, AI! · When Will They Learn?

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to When Will They Learn?
0:01
SPEAKER_02: I'm Greg Ashman.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'm Katie Wade.
0:08
This is the podcast where we explore what's trending in the
0:10
world of education.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: In each episode,
0:13
SPEAKER_01: we discuss podcasts,
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articles and opinion pieces that are shaping education
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discourse at the moment and
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SPEAKER_01: examine these through a science of learning lens.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: We discuss not just what's popular, but what's supported by the evidence.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: In this episode,
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SPEAKER_02: we will be talking about AI and its effect on teacher workload,
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SPEAKER_02: differentiation,
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SPEAKER_02: and a little discussion of ATARs,
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SPEAKER_02: whatever they are.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Morning, Greg.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
0:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm all right, Katie.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
0:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
0:43
SPEAKER_00: Good, thank you.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: It's bright and early this morning for this recording.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes, have you been surfing?
0:49
SPEAKER_00: I have not, no.
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No,
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it's six o'clock here and I've sort of stumbled out of bed and
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come on in for this.
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SPEAKER_00: Have you been surfing this morning?
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SPEAKER_00: No, in Ballarat, Katie.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: Where would I go surfing?
1:01
SPEAKER_02: You live in the glamorous Queensland.
1:05
I live in the forested Ballarat,
1:09
so it's a slightly different place for that sort of thing.
1:13
Greg,
1:13
I think we had a couple of different articles we wanted to talk
1:16
to today.
1:17
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to kick us off with the first one?
1:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
1:20
So the first article is from the British Education Research
1:25
Association's blog.
1:27
And it's called Reimagining Homework with Artificial
1:30
Intelligence in Secondary Education.
1:33
SPEAKER_02: And it's by Alexander Blaschko and Angela Schofield.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: And it's an interesting article.
1:40
We've seen more and more of these articles now talking about AI
1:43
and how it applies
1:45
to education and the people working out the different
1:50
consequences of it and things
1:52
SPEAKER_02: like that.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: And what I thought was good...
1:54
About the article is it talked a lot about how AI can help
1:58
teach a workload.
1:59
And I don't know about you,
2:00
Katie,
2:01
but I've been experimenting with AI a lot.
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SPEAKER_02: And I find that it's really good at certain things.
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SPEAKER_02: So if I want to write a whole load of practice questions,
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SPEAKER_02: it will generate quite a few for me fairly quickly.
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If I give it a model,
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I can tweak that and I can do all that sort of stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: And I find it useful for that.
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SPEAKER_02: If I wasn't in control of the AI the whole time,
2:27
SPEAKER_02: the results would be horrific because it does very strange things.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: And so you have to,
2:32
SPEAKER_02: you still,
2:33
SPEAKER_02: there's no,
2:34
SPEAKER_02: it's not a substitute for teacher knowledge because it makes mistakes,
2:37
sometimes tells you things are right when they're wrong or
2:39
gives wrong answers and
2:42
SPEAKER_02: misses the point quite often as well of what you're trying to do.
2:44
SPEAKER_02: It's no good with diagrams.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: So I'm teaching some year 12 physics at the moment.
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SPEAKER_02: It's hopeless at generating data.
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SPEAKER_02: It will generate the components of them.
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SPEAKER_02: So if I say,
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SPEAKER_02: do me a line diagram of a spring,
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SPEAKER_02: a transparent one that I can put into a PowerPoint,
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SPEAKER_02: it will do that.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: But it won't do the whole,
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SPEAKER_02: if I try and explain the whole experiment apparatus,
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SPEAKER_02: it can't generate that diagram,
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SPEAKER_02: not yet anyway.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: But what the authors talk about a lot is,
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SPEAKER_02: so that's prep,
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SPEAKER_02: that's planning,
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SPEAKER_02: and I find it really useful for that.
3:18
SPEAKER_02: what they talk about is grading.
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SPEAKER_02: So using AI to grade students' work.
3:24
SPEAKER_02: And I think they come at this more from a kind of humanities background.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: That's the sense I get.
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And I know that at our place,
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our English teachers are using the number marking.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: And that's got an AI component to it now that will do
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automated marking which is apparently according to our english
3:46
teachers a lot
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better than it used to be back in the day um and that is a huge
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um save of teacher
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time because um english teachers marking essays is it's it's a
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very um work
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intensive process and if we can do anything to help that that's
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really useful so i
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SPEAKER_02: like that um what the authors are concerned about
4:10
was the AI and I don't quite I didn't quite follow this as much
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what their concern
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was uh their their main sort of worry about AI is it will
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standardize tasks and
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standardize marking okay yes um well maybe but that's actually
4:27
quite useful because
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if you standardize tasks and you've got lots of people who've
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done the same task
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SPEAKER_02: you can make better comparisons um but that this would um
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SPEAKER_02: Make homework lose its meaning for students.
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SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting point they've made.
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SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: An interesting claim, sorry, they've made.
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SPEAKER_02: Yes, it is.
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And it got me thinking about what the meaning of homework is
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and how I view homework.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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Even before AI,
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my approach to homework was,
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you just don't know how the kids have done it.
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So they could have sat in the library on their own and done the
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whole thing themselves.
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SPEAKER_02: They could have got help from a parent.
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SPEAKER_02: And then that's obviously...
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SPEAKER_02: inequitable because some parents are more able to help than others.
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SPEAKER_02: They might even have a tutor.
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SPEAKER_02: They might not really have done the homework.
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SPEAKER_02: They could have just copied it off someone next to them.
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So my philosophy for that is that I've always seen homework as
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a straightforward
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SPEAKER_02: practice of something we've taught students how to do.
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SPEAKER_02: Straightforward practice of something we've taught students how to do.
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SPEAKER_02: Why?
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SPEAKER_02: Why?
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SPEAKER_02: Well, because independent practice is valuable.
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SPEAKER_02: It builds episodic knowledge.
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It builds experience of the different kinds of questions that
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you might encounter.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, I've seen one like that before.
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SPEAKER_02: I had to do this, that or the other.
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SPEAKER_02: And of course,
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SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking of this probably from a kind of maths,
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SPEAKER_02: physics perspective when I'm talking about questions.
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SPEAKER_02: But similar ideas would apply in other areas.
6:02
SPEAKER_02: It serves as space practice.
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SPEAKER_02: So you're training your brain that this is important because
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At different times of the day,
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in different places,
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you're having to pull this information out.
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SPEAKER_02: And if the students know how to do it,
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SPEAKER_02: they're less motivated to ask for help,
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SPEAKER_02: whether that be from a parent,
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SPEAKER_02: whether it be or cheat.
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SPEAKER_02: They're less likely to be motivated to cheat.
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SPEAKER_02: And they're less likely to be motivated to go to AI and say,
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SPEAKER_02: AI,
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SPEAKER_02: what's all the answers to this question?
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SPEAKER_02: Give me the answers and spit them out.
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SPEAKER_02: Because they know how to do it.
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SPEAKER_02: So you've removed barriers to entry to the homework.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's way more effort.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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So you still don't know whether students have done that or
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whether they've got help
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SPEAKER_02: or not,
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but you've just increased the odds that they'll just sit down
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and do it and do what
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SPEAKER_02: you want them to do by reducing those barriers.
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SPEAKER_02: And so it's a little bit more equitable.
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SPEAKER_02: Now, that's been my...
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thoughts around homework for some years before AI became what
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it is today.
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SPEAKER_02: Because AI is just another tutor or parent or friend to copy off.
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SPEAKER_02: And we've always had those, if you see what I mean.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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I think it comes down to,
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and it's what you say,
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it's what we're actually using homework for.
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SPEAKER_00: Because have I seen students use AI for homework?
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SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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SPEAKER_00: Have I seen students,
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SPEAKER_00: and from a maths perspective,
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SPEAKER_00: in getting students to use AI for homework,
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SPEAKER_00: in most cases,
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SPEAKER_00: that's probably going to be more effort if they know the stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
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SPEAKER_00: I've had students who have said,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't really understand this concept,
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SPEAKER_00: so I'm going to ask chat to do it for me.
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And so there's this reliance on the teacher having actually
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taught the content and
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exposed it to students for them to go away and to be able to do
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the homework.
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SPEAKER_00: And I know that in my subject area,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm lucky that once I've taught my students how to do it,
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SPEAKER_00: it is more effort for them to type it into chat,
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SPEAKER_00: get chat to do the problem,
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SPEAKER_00: then write it out by hand.
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I know that I'm really lucky and I know that subjects that
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might have a heavier
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SPEAKER_00: written component don't have that same ability.
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But I agree it is the same as,
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yeah,
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whether it's getting students to copy off a friend.
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SPEAKER_00: I know that my concern is always that a student didn't do their homework.
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Their tutor basically taught them how to do their homework and
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they copied it out.
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SPEAKER_00: It's the exact same as that.
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The other part of the article that I really wanted to touch on
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was they spoke about
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SPEAKER_00: using AI to mark
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SPEAKER_00: homework specifically.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know that that is actually what we should be using AI for.
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SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking marking in general,
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SPEAKER_00: but marking of homework,
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SPEAKER_00: which they spoke to in the article.
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SPEAKER_00: That's the part where I'm not, we don't mark homework anyway, right?
8:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's a good point.
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SPEAKER_02: They're talking about using AI to mark homework.
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SPEAKER_02: Now,
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SPEAKER_02: when I was talking about our English teachers,
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SPEAKER_02: they were marking tasks done in class using normal marking.
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Now,
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that's much more valid because you know how the students have
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done it.
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SPEAKER_02: You know they've done it themselves.
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SPEAKER_02: You know the conditions on which they've done it.
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SPEAKER_02: So it's worth...
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going to the effort of marking it but marking homework is a
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pointless task it's a
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labor of sisyphus it's no one can ever keep up with it um so
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everyone feels bad all
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the time because they're not on top of marking their homework
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and it's it's a waste
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of time because you might just be marking uh something that's
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like if you then use
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ai to mark it you might have ai marking something that ai has
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done um and it's just
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SPEAKER_02: a complete loop you know someone's
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SPEAKER_02: If someone's written an essay in AI and then you get AI to mark it.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think being low tech as well,
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SPEAKER_02: like if the teacher requires the essay to be handwritten,
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SPEAKER_02: again,
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SPEAKER_02: you could get AI to generate you and copy it out,
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SPEAKER_02: but you've increased the nuisance value of using AI.
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SPEAKER_02: And it might be easier to just write your...
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your paragraph while you're on the bus or whatever than than do
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that so being smart
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about um about how you how you set that what what the tasks are
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what you're asking
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them to do for the homework but if you really want to assess
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something and you
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really want to know what the students can do um that needs to
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be something that
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SPEAKER_02: they do in class where you can observe them um and where you can then um
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You can be certain that what you're assessing is actually worth
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assessing.
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SPEAKER_02: I was actually,
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SPEAKER_02: yesterday,
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SPEAKER_02: Katie,
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SPEAKER_02: we have this,
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SPEAKER_02: you'll be familiar with the concept of question of the week.
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SPEAKER_02: 100%.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was writing a question of the week for my physics class.
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SPEAKER_02: And I wrote the question and then the way it works,
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and you're very familiar with this because you used to do these
10:51
when you were in my
10:51
SPEAKER_02: physics class years ago.
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But there's the question and then I print a copy and then I
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handwrite all the answers on it.
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SPEAKER_02: And then the students sit in class,
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SPEAKER_02: they do the question,
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SPEAKER_02: they swap with the partner,
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SPEAKER_02: they get the answers,
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SPEAKER_02: they correct it themselves and
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SPEAKER_02: I collect up their answers, but they get to keep a copy of my solutions.
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SPEAKER_02: And then that's how we roll.
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SPEAKER_02: So I was doing the solutions and there was a bit involved.
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And so I took a photo of it and I put it into an AI and I said,
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check these solutions.
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And it went through and it gave me all green ticks and said
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they're all right.
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But something,
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they're all correct,
11:29
but something about it didn't quite sit well with me.
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SPEAKER_02: And I went back through it and I realized that I divided,
11:36
SPEAKER_02: sorry,
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SPEAKER_02: I multiplied by the mass instead of divided by the mass in one step.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I pointed this out to AI and I said, oh, yeah, you're right.
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SPEAKER_02: It wasn't correct.
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SPEAKER_02: So you always have to be in charge of the thing.
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SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, you know, it's useful.
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Nine times out of 10,
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it will check something and tell you whether it's right or
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wrong.
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SPEAKER_02: But it's not foolproof at the moment.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: And so it still requires quite a lot of teacher guidance and input.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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it's interesting that you've got that because the one that I've
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got was I had it
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SPEAKER_00: writing a question for a test.
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And as it's writing this maths question,
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I said,
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look,
12:14
I was like,
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can you write me a question?
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SPEAKER_00: I want to use a parabola or a quadratic in it.
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SPEAKER_00: And it wrote a question that was based on a circle.
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SPEAKER_00: And it had this question.
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It was based on a circular hamster wheel that was modeled with
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a parabola.
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And for those of you who are listening who are not maths
12:30
teachers,
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we know what a circle is.
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SPEAKER_00: A parabola is like an arc, like a U-shape.
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SPEAKER_00: They're completely different.
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But they actually both have mathematical relations or there's
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equations I can write
12:42
SPEAKER_00: for both of those.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's just completely picked the wrong one.
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So if I've got my students and they do want to use AI and they
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do want to ask it
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SPEAKER_00: questions,
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SPEAKER_00: the conversation I have is I get it to do my maths.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm all for AI.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: It,
12:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:58
SPEAKER_00: for me writing resources,
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SPEAKER_00: I'll often,
13:00
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
13:01
SPEAKER_00: I'll put in,
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SPEAKER_00: I'll write the first question that I want to model to students,
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but I'll get it to write me a series of similar questions and
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I'll get it to write
13:09
me the solution so that I don't have to go through and
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handwrite them for every
13:12
SPEAKER_00: single question I'm doing.
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SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they're not right.
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I like to point that out to the students in class and go,
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hey,
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chat did that for me.
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SPEAKER_00: That's wrong.
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SPEAKER_00: You guys found the error.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: It didn't.
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SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it does that.
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But the only reason that I know that it's wrong is because I've
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got the background in it.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a danger in just using it and throwing things in.
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I think for our students,
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we can't stop them using it because they know that it exists.
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SPEAKER_00: And they're using it anyway.
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SPEAKER_00: It's on social media platforms that they're using.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:46
think for our students,
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it's actually that conversation around,
13:49
look,
13:50
you can use it.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Here's how you can use it.
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SPEAKER_00: I think what you said, limiting that use.
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SPEAKER_00: So for written subjects,
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you've really got to keep it tightly constrained where you're
13:59
not doing work at
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SPEAKER_00: home because when you do it at home,
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SPEAKER_00: Of course,
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SPEAKER_00: if I'm typing something and I'm typing that at home,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm probably going to get chat to do it for me,
14:08
SPEAKER_00: right?
14:08
Why would I sit there and waste my time writing an essay when I
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could be out,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:12
SPEAKER_00: kicking a ball with my mates or surfing on Lake Wendaree in Ballarat?
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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Instead,
14:19
we need to keep things tightly controlled and make it so they
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can't do it.
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But we also need to give them that education around the fact
14:26
that it's not
14:27
SPEAKER_00: necessarily going to be accurate for them.
14:29
And there are cases where you can use it for X,
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Y,
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Z.
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It's great for idea generation.
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SPEAKER_00: Is it great for actually producing pieces or is it great for accuracy?
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Is it going to read through a journal article and actually give
14:41
you real quotes?
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SPEAKER_00: Because my answer to that is no, it will make them up.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: I think that's probably it.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: No, I agree.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: I used it a couple of years ago.
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SPEAKER_02: So an earlier version, less sophisticated chat GDP than it is now.
15:00
And I took year 11 economics because we had someone leave at
15:05
the end of term one
15:06
SPEAKER_02: and we were going to get someone else in.
15:08
But for a while I was taking year 11 economics and I don't have
15:11
a background in economics.
15:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's a single teacher subject.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: So what we try to do whenever we have questions in our slides,
15:20
SPEAKER_02: as you'll be well aware that we use in class,
15:23
SPEAKER_02: we also have solutions to them.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: But this single teacher subject, there weren't solutions.
15:28
There were just loads of questions because obviously when
15:30
you've only got one
15:31
SPEAKER_02: teacher working on the materials,
15:32
SPEAKER_02: it's quite a lot to get all of that up and running.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: And so I was left with all these questions.
15:38
SPEAKER_02: And I found myself running those through AI.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: But I had to read a book on economics.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: And I had to keep checking in this book.
15:49
SPEAKER_02: And I had to call the AI on lots of errors.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: So it was still useful.
15:55
SPEAKER_02: It saved me some time.
15:57
But I was still on a hamster wheel constantly trying to
16:01
understand the economics
16:03
myself and figure out what was going on because I had to be in
16:06
charge of that AI.
16:09
SPEAKER_02: And the other thing,
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SPEAKER_02: just going back to the diagrams,
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SPEAKER_02: I mean,
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SPEAKER_02: I've wasted so much time trying to generate diagrams.
16:17
SPEAKER_02: Like I wanted the other day,
16:20
SPEAKER_02: I wanted a lift with two packing boxes on top of each other,
16:24
SPEAKER_02: one on top of the other.
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SPEAKER_00: It seems straightforward.
16:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
16:28
SPEAKER_02: but what AI,
16:29
SPEAKER_02: and I thought AI could do this,
16:32
SPEAKER_02: but it keeps,
16:33
SPEAKER_02: it wants to give 3D perspective on everything.
16:37
And you even tell it literally,
16:38
I don't want any 3D perspective,
16:39
do it flat.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I don't have the language,
16:42
SPEAKER_02: maybe I need to be a graphic designer or something,
16:45
SPEAKER_02: but it just simply does not understand.
16:48
So I eventually got to something that was sort of flat-ish,
16:52
which I could use,
16:53
but I'd lost.
16:55
20 minutes 25 minutes faffing around trying to generate this
16:59
diagram which i could
16:59
have probably done myself in powerpoint in about a minute so
17:05
yeah sometimes having
17:06
a really back and forth like argument like at this point you're
17:08
like i've lost
17:09
control of my life i'm having a fight with a computer this
17:11
isn't real yeah yeah
17:14
absolutely and particularly the diagrams it will do that but
17:17
sometimes it gets
17:18
SPEAKER_02: stuck it just gets stuck um like i
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like you say, write a question like this.
17:27
And the way that it's similar to the question you've written is
17:31
not the way you
17:32
SPEAKER_02: thought it would be.
17:33
SPEAKER_02: So when I'm saying a question like this,
17:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking of the deep structure,
17:39
SPEAKER_02: the maths behind it,
17:40
SPEAKER_02: right?
17:40
But it will write one that's like in the same context,
17:43
but actually wildly different maths or
17:46
It'll use all the same terms and symbols and things when you
17:53
actually wanted those
17:54
SPEAKER_02: to vary through the questions.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it requires a lot of control.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
18:01
SPEAKER_00: Shall we move on to the next one?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: I'll start us off with this one.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: So the next one is it's both a podcast and an article here.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: So the podcast here is the podcast Let's Talk Teaching.
18:21
SPEAKER_00: And specifically,
18:22
SPEAKER_00: we're talking about it's episode number eight,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: which is Tailored Teaching,
18:27
SPEAKER_00: Adapting to Every Style of Learner.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: So in this podcast,
18:31
SPEAKER_00: we have Associate Professor Rebecca Cooper,
18:34
SPEAKER_00: who sort of hosts the entire thing.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: We've got Penny Round.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Penny Round,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: who's also based at Monash University,
18:42
but her experience is she's been a year 12 VCE English teacher
18:46
or Victorian sort of
18:47
SPEAKER_00: senior school English teacher.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: And we've got Maddie Curtin, who is a primary school teacher.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: And what they're talking about in this podcast,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Greg,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: is sort of discussing this idea of differentiation.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: And we've both addressed differentiation in different points,
19:06
and I think it's come up in conversation just by chance in
19:09
every single podcast
19:10
SPEAKER_00: episode that we've done so far.
19:12
But we've often drawn on the fact that differentiation is
19:16
usually poorly defined.
19:17
So at the start of this podcast,
19:19
they start by,
19:20
I think it's Rebecca Cooper asks...
19:23
SPEAKER_00: how would you define differentiation?
19:26
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm thinking this is going to be great,
19:29
SPEAKER_00: but they start off by giving a definition that,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: in my opinion,
19:33
SPEAKER_00: was probably a little bit fluffy,
19:34
SPEAKER_00: but they basically say it's a strengths-based approach.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: It's around,
19:39
they sort of refer to this idea constantly of it's about
19:43
knowing your students and
19:45
SPEAKER_00: their individual needs and knowing your students and how they learn.
19:49
And they talk about how there's this idea that sort of
19:52
permeates throughout,
19:53
SPEAKER_00: and they repeat this a few times as a quote.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: They say, every child has some need.
19:59
SPEAKER_00: As part of this,
20:01
SPEAKER_00: the general idea of this is they basically say,
20:03
SPEAKER_00: so,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: every student in some way,
20:06
SPEAKER_00: whether they're,
20:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:07
they speak about gifted students or they speak about students
20:09
with additional
20:10
SPEAKER_00: learning needs,
20:10
SPEAKER_00: they all require some kind of differentiation.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:15
And what they speak to is that the way of you doing that is you
20:20
go through as the
20:20
teacher and you need to get to know your students really well
20:24
so that you can
20:24
SPEAKER_00: understand them.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And once you know your students and you understand them,
20:28
SPEAKER_00: you can then start to plan for differentiation.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: This is the part that raised serious concerns though for me.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: And it was mentioned right at the start of the podcast.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: They made the comment,
20:41
the differentiation should be planning for every single learner
20:44
in every single
20:45
SPEAKER_00: lesson plan.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't...
20:48
Raise concerns for me in that there are students in our classes
20:51
that we should be
20:51
SPEAKER_00: neglecting,
20:52
but it raises concerns because the implication of this sentence
20:55
and the way that it
20:56
SPEAKER_00: was worded is that you should,
20:58
SPEAKER_00: in your lesson plan,
20:59
SPEAKER_00: essentially be considering at an individual level all,
21:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:04
SPEAKER_00: 20 to 30 of the individuals in your class.
21:07
And they kind of skirt over this idea a little bit at the start
21:10
and they sort of
21:10
SPEAKER_00: speak about how you can differentiate and we can come to that.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: But they circled back to it at the very end and I got excited.
21:18
SPEAKER_00: So the host,
21:19
SPEAKER_00: Rebecca Cooper,
21:19
SPEAKER_00: asks the question,
21:21
SPEAKER_00: okay,
21:21
SPEAKER_00: do we not think,
21:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: for teacher workload,
21:24
is it not a really outlandish claim to say that you should
21:27
differentiate for every
21:29
SPEAKER_00: single student?
21:31
SPEAKER_00: And as part of that document, and we'll come to the documentation, but...
21:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
21:36
SPEAKER_00: it's not an outlandish claim for teacher workload to say,
21:38
SPEAKER_00: hey,
21:39
SPEAKER_00: on top of everything else,
21:41
can you guys go through and document what you're doing for
21:44
every student and plan
21:46
SPEAKER_00: for every student at an individual level?
21:48
SPEAKER_00: And the response from Penny Round and Maddie Curtin was basically...
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, it is a lot of workload, but it's more in the documentation phase.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it really is a lot, but you need to do it and it'll get easier.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And they,
22:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:03
they speak to the concerns around teacher retention and the
22:05
classic 50% of teachers
22:07
SPEAKER_00: leaving in their first five years.
22:10
SPEAKER_00: But they kind of go,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: oh,
22:11
SPEAKER_00: but that's silly because,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: at that point you've got a repertoire of lessons already,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: so there's no point you're leaving.
22:17
And so then you don't need to worry about this differentiation
22:19
because you can focus on it then.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: So they almost acknowledge,
22:23
SPEAKER_00: like indirectly,
22:24
SPEAKER_00: this is a problem for workload,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: but don't actually offer any clear solution to that.
22:32
I have a lot of thoughts,
22:34
but before I jump in,
22:35
Greg,
22:36
based on all of that,
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know you have opinions on differentiation.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I do, Katie.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: So just before we did, just a couple of things about the specifics.
22:50
One of the specifics is that it's called adapting to every
22:54
style of learner,
22:55
which is a big alarm bell to me because it sort of implies
23:01
learning styles.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: Which weren't mentioned.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: No, but why is it there in the title?
23:07
Yeah,
23:07
but they weren't mentioned during the podcast,
23:10
but it sort of implies that.
23:12
And then this idea of a strengths-based approach,
23:14
I think that's really interesting.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: So education is afflicted with this kind of romanticism everywhere.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: We take this kind of romantic view.
23:26
SPEAKER_02: It sort of goes back to Rousseau and maybe these other ideas.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: And so...
23:32
The romantic view is we don't want to talk about children
23:35
having deficits.
23:36
SPEAKER_02: That's a deficit model, and that's bad.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: We want to take a strengths-based approach.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: So we want to look at all these individuals and say,
23:43
SPEAKER_02: well,
23:43
SPEAKER_02: they've all got their individual strengths,
23:45
SPEAKER_02: and that's great,
23:47
SPEAKER_02: but it worries me.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Because, as you say, differentiation is very poorly defined.
23:52
And we can have a meeting and you and I can agree that we're
23:56
going to differentiate
23:56
SPEAKER_02: and we can go away and do completely different things.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: We can even do opposite things.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: So if you've got a child that's struggling with writing,
24:03
SPEAKER_02: for instance,
24:04
one way you could differentiate for that child is to get them
24:08
to dictate things.
24:10
SPEAKER_02: instead of write.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: Another way is to give them intensive writing support,
24:17
SPEAKER_02: writing framework or writing instruction or something.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: They're both forms of differentiation, but they're opposite.
24:22
SPEAKER_02: One accommodates the need, the other addresses the need.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: And I worry when we talk about a strengths-based approach.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: that that's going to point us towards accommodating their needs.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: So, oh, they're not strong at writing.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: So we won't focus on that.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: Their strength is their ideas.
24:37
So we'll take a strength-based approach and we'll let them
24:40
dictate their ideas
24:43
SPEAKER_02: rather than write and that sort of thing.
24:45
SPEAKER_02: So that worries me.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: But zooming out, just zooming out to the whole thing.
24:53
SPEAKER_02: It is an entirely impractical project, this differentiation thing.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: Back in,
24:58
SPEAKER_02: I think it was about 2015,
25:01
I wrote an article about expressing some of the ideas about
25:05
differentiation that
25:05
SPEAKER_02: I've just expressed.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: You know,
25:08
SPEAKER_02: the idea that,
25:10
SPEAKER_02: as you picked up on,
25:11
SPEAKER_02: it's a lot of work to plan all these different lessons.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: It's interesting that five years in, you can just reuse them.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: What happens to getting to know your students then?
25:19
SPEAKER_02: Do you not have to do that anymore?
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Are they all just the same after five years?
25:23
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that's an interesting idea.
25:25
SPEAKER_02: But...
25:27
SPEAKER_02: So all this playing, but also differentiation means loads of things.
25:31
SPEAKER_02: But what it typically means is within your class,
25:35
you're going to group your students into different groups and
25:37
the different groups
25:38
SPEAKER_02: are going to do different things.
25:39
And the idea being that that's better tailored to what they
25:42
need right now.
25:44
But the cost is that now they've got to do more independent
25:47
work and more seat work
25:48
SPEAKER_02: because there's still only one teacher.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: And that one teacher can only be with one group at a time.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: So we're going to spend more of our time doing independent work,
25:55
SPEAKER_02: seat work,
25:56
SPEAKER_02: filling in worksheets,
25:57
SPEAKER_02: things like that.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: And the teacher's instruction is now diluted.
26:01
So instead of,
26:02
you know,
26:03
an hour of teaching,
26:04
it's 12 minutes or whatever it is for each group.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: So the benefits to me do not outweigh the costs of working that way.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: Now,
26:12
SPEAKER_02: of course,
26:13
if you are in a rural school where you've got to have mixed age
26:17
classrooms because
26:18
SPEAKER_02: there's only 12 kids in the school,
26:20
SPEAKER_02: you have to do that.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't mean that that's the ideal if you don't have to do it.
26:25
And so I'd been writing about this and some academics wrote a
26:30
piece on The Conversation.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: And they talked about people misunderstanding differentiation.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: And an example of someone misunderstanding differentiation was me.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: I was about to say, they just named you.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: No, they linked to my blog.
26:44
They didn't name me,
26:44
but they linked to my blog as an example of people
26:47
misunderstanding it.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: And I got in the comments and disagreed and it was a bit of to and fro.
26:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's as a result of that,
26:53
SPEAKER_02: that they eventually stopped allowing comments on the conversation.
26:58
SPEAKER_02: But what happened was there was a bit of a,
26:59
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
27:02
SPEAKER_02: there was a bit of a dialogue that went on and I'm,
27:04
One of the things that they talked about was universal design
27:07
for learning,
27:08
which is a model of differentiation which has no real evidence
27:12
to support it.
27:13
SPEAKER_02: In fact,
27:13
SPEAKER_02: for years on their website,
27:15
SPEAKER_02: the UDL people asked people to send in evidence to support their claims,
27:20
SPEAKER_02: which is obviously the opposite.
27:21
That's how you know what you do is really effective is you ask
27:24
other people to,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: hey,
27:25
SPEAKER_00: if this works for you,
27:26
SPEAKER_00: can you just let me know?
27:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: So it was, yeah.
27:31
SPEAKER_02: And there's been some meta-analysis.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
27:34
SPEAKER_02: the thing is,
27:35
you can't really do a proper research into differentiation
27:38
because it means so many
27:40
SPEAKER_02: things.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: It's poorly defined.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: It varies so many different things.
27:44
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, these academics who I've been arguing with went away.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: And they did a scoping review,
27:50
which is kind of like an early stage meta-analysis because they
27:56
were convinced
27:57
SPEAKER_02: there was evidence for differentiation.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: But when they got into an argument with me,
28:01
SPEAKER_02: they were sort of casting about and couldn't really find it.
28:05
But they knew there must be because obviously it's in the
28:07
teaching standards and
28:08
everyone says it's a good thing and it sounds so nice and it's
28:11
quite romantic and
28:12
SPEAKER_02: it's about treating everyone as individuals.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: And so it's really humane and all that.
28:16
SPEAKER_02: So there must be evidence.
28:17
So they decided to go out and do a scoping review and look for
28:20
this evidence.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: And this was published, I think it was in 2020.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: So we're talking quite a long chain of events here.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: And this is from the abstract from that scoping review.
28:31
Only a small group of studies focused on differentiation's
28:34
impact on student outcomes.
28:37
And these typically only examine specific elements of
28:39
differentiation or its use in
28:41
SPEAKER_02: specific academic domains.
28:42
SPEAKER_02: Well,
28:42
SPEAKER_02: of course it did,
28:43
SPEAKER_02: because otherwise there wouldn't be proper experiments,
28:46
SPEAKER_02: because you've got to control your variables a bit,
28:48
SPEAKER_02: so you do have to be a bit specific.
28:50
The diversity of focus and methodological approaches across the
28:53
34 studies,
28:54
SPEAKER_02: so they found 34 studies they could include in the scope and review,
28:58
prevents comparison of findings and weakens the evidential
29:01
basis to make claims of
29:02
SPEAKER_02: either differentiation's effectiveness or,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: indeed,
29:05
SPEAKER_02: its ineffectiveness.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: So there you are.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Nobody knows.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: It's in the teaching standards.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
29:15
that's been the comment that I've made before is that my
29:17
concern with our teaching
29:19
SPEAKER_00: standards is just the level of representation that this abstract idea of
29:23
SPEAKER_00: differentiation has.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And the way that it is worded on some of the,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: um,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: the,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:29
SPEAKER_00: the teaching standards just for,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: um,
29:32
SPEAKER_00: for non-Australian listeners,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: um,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: Just to clarify,
29:35
so the teaching standards in Australia are essentially a list
29:39
sent out by,
29:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:40
overarching body of things that you would expect teachers at
29:44
different levels to
29:45
SPEAKER_00: do.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: So they've got, you know, what should your graduate teacher do?
29:48
SPEAKER_00: What should they do when they move into proficient,
29:50
which can be anywhere from sort of 12 months to a few years
29:52
into their teaching
29:54
SPEAKER_00: careers,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: right through to then moving into,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
29:56
SPEAKER_00: you've got your...
29:57
SPEAKER_00: highly accomplished in your lead,
29:59
SPEAKER_00: which is where you start to become the expert teacher in the room.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And so these teaching standards,
30:04
there is a huge focus on differentiation and it sort of
30:09
permeates throughout.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: But when you start to delve into it in detail in their resources,
30:15
SPEAKER_00: it does suggest,
30:16
SPEAKER_00: and I'm going to link it back to a couple of the strategies,
30:19
SPEAKER_00: sorry,
30:20
SPEAKER_00: that they've listed in this podcast,
30:21
but there's almost this implication that it should be doing
30:24
very different things
30:25
SPEAKER_00: for different students.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: Which I will sort of add the caveat and say I don't fully disagree with,
30:32
SPEAKER_00: but I think the suggestion here,
30:34
and I'm going to give you some of the strategies they gave in
30:37
this podcast because
30:38
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear your opinion.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: I think the strategies, I mean, the concern is it's what you said.
30:45
It's that we're not actually lifting the learner or providing
30:48
opportunities for a
30:49
SPEAKER_00: learner to meet a specific task.
30:51
What we're instead doing is we're changing the task,
30:54
which doesn't actually offer support.
30:57
SPEAKER_00: I've said before,
30:58
SPEAKER_00: I love the quote and I don't know where it came from,
31:00
SPEAKER_00: but differentiate by support,
31:02
SPEAKER_00: not by curriculum.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: So I'll chuck you a couple.
31:07
So one of the unsuggested strategies was reduce the demands of
31:11
the task for students.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: Allow your expectations.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: What can we expect of kids like these?
31:17
SPEAKER_02: It's not good, is it?
31:19
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
31:20
And again,
31:21
it's not about you doing,
31:23
it's not about saying that should never be the case.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: But the fact that was a strategy that was lent on so early on,
31:29
SPEAKER_00: There were other things.
31:30
There was one where it said you should pay attention to how
31:32
confident your students are.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: And if your students aren't confident,
31:37
they speak about you should provide opportunities for
31:39
confidence or extra support
31:41
SPEAKER_00: so they can develop their confidence.
31:44
So they specifically say you should protect a student's
31:47
confidence if a task is
31:49
SPEAKER_00: going to feel threatening to that confidence.
31:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: What do you reckon could go wrong with this?
31:55
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I mean, it depends what you mean by it.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Rather than reducing the demands of the task,
32:00
what you could do is you could scaffold it so that the kids can
32:03
get there.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's probably what I would do.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: So I would scaffold it more.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: And look, this gets to the point like we all differentiate.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: The problem with the term is that we all do it
32:15
SPEAKER_02: But it just – because it's so flexible and malleable.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
32:20
SPEAKER_02: sometimes when I've written about differentiation,
32:21
SPEAKER_02: I've had very angry people contact me and say,
32:24
SPEAKER_02: oh,
32:26
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
32:26
SPEAKER_02: but differentiation is essential.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: That's why we have ability grouping in our maths department.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well –
32:31
Yeah,
32:32
that is differentiation,
32:33
but it's not what people mostly mean by differentiation.
32:36
SPEAKER_02: They don't normally mean ability grouping,
32:38
SPEAKER_02: like having a more advanced class and a less advanced class.
32:42
SPEAKER_02: They don't normally mean that.
32:44
SPEAKER_02: And direct instruction,
32:45
they have placement assessments and how you go on the placement
32:49
assessment
32:49
SPEAKER_02: determines which version of the course you do,
32:52
SPEAKER_02: which all kind of makes sense.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: And I remember back in the day in London,
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Having the Ofsted inspectors come,
32:59
SPEAKER_02: and I was head of a science department,
33:00
SPEAKER_02: and they would come round,
33:01
SPEAKER_02: and we were like performing monkeys.
33:04
We had to sort of demonstrate all these fashionable things that
33:08
were important.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: And you'd come up with wheezes.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: So one wheeze was any lesson plan.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: Rather than writing three or four different versions to demonstrate
33:16
SPEAKER_02: differentiating,
33:17
SPEAKER_02: we'd just write in differentiation by targeted questioning.
33:21
SPEAKER_02: And then when the inspector came into your classroom,
33:23
SPEAKER_02: you just have to make sure you named a few kids and asked them questions.
33:27
SPEAKER_02: And then you could say,
33:27
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
33:27
I was differentiating because I knew that this kid should have
33:30
that question,
33:31
SPEAKER_02: but this other kid should have a different one.
33:33
SPEAKER_02: And they go, oh, OK, you demonstrated differentiating.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: And off they'd go, happy.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: And it was just a wheeze.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: It was just literally a hoop-jumping exercise.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: So it can mean so many different things.
33:44
SPEAKER_02: But what you're pointing at, Katie, quite rightly, is...
33:47
SPEAKER_02: It can mean dangerous things.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: It can mean lower your expectations.
33:51
It can mean wrap kids in cotton wool so that they don't have to
33:56
do anything that
33:57
SPEAKER_02: might push them out of their comfort zone.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: And I'm very opposed to that.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, there was one more thing there that I think...
34:05
that I found significant concern with,
34:07
and I imagine you probably feel the same.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: So the other thing that they speak about is they talk about the NCCD,
34:15
and I'm just going to provide a little bit of context around
34:17
what that is first.
34:18
So the NCCD is the Nationally Consistent Collection of Data on
34:23
School Students with
34:24
SPEAKER_00: a Disability,
34:25
SPEAKER_00: for those of you listening.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Essentially,
34:29
SPEAKER_00: though,
34:29
this is a system in Australia that's used by schools to
34:31
basically record and report
34:33
SPEAKER_00: on the support that's provided.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: to students.
34:37
It's funny,
34:37
it says everywhere students with a disability,
34:39
but students with additional needs.
34:40
And this is really,
34:41
really important for the point that they made in the podcast.
34:45
But basically what happens is teachers will record any
34:49
adjustments that they're
34:50
SPEAKER_00: making to students.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: They sort of,
34:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:52
SPEAKER_00: go through some process through your schools,
34:54
SPEAKER_00: like diverse learning or learning support,
34:56
SPEAKER_00: whatever you call them.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: through their faculty.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: And then those get taken off,
35:00
SPEAKER_00: submitted,
35:01
SPEAKER_00: and they determine things like funding,
35:03
SPEAKER_00: et cetera,
35:03
SPEAKER_00: for different students.
35:04
And so it's in your best interests to wherever you're applying
35:08
any kind of
35:08
SPEAKER_00: adjustment to a student within your class to record,
35:12
SPEAKER_00: they say record evidence of it,
35:13
SPEAKER_00: really,
35:13
SPEAKER_00: you're just listing out what you're doing.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:17
SPEAKER_00: And again,
35:18
SPEAKER_00: to give a little bit more context,
35:19
SPEAKER_00: it's called the nationally consistent collection of data.
35:24
I will point out that at this point I've worked at multiple
35:26
schools that have done this.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: And to be clear, I'm lucky.
35:30
And every school I've worked at has done this in a really,
35:33
really great way.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: But it hasn't been consistent.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: None of them have done it the same.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: There's no consistency.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: What, and here's the key things that you need with this.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: So they have different levels of adjustments that you can apply.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: So your first one is, I would call this your tier one instruction.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: This is your quality differentiated teaching practice or QDTP,
35:55
SPEAKER_00: which is your whole class strategies to support the student.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Now,
35:59
when I have filled out the NCCD documentation for my students
36:03
so far this year,
36:04
SPEAKER_00: that's where the majority of mine sit because the things that I do,
36:08
SPEAKER_00: so the folding,
36:09
SPEAKER_00: the explicit instruction,
36:11
SPEAKER_00: which are often listed on students' individual learning plans,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: those are things that I do for every student in my class at all times.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: So you can sort of get away with most of it there.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: As you move on,
36:22
SPEAKER_00: you move into sort of supplementary,
36:24
SPEAKER_00: substantial and extensive adjustments,
36:26
SPEAKER_00: which are done on an individual level.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: To bring it back to the comment in the podcast,
36:31
they point out in the podcast that when it comes to recording
36:36
adjustments,
36:37
you are as a teacher now allowed to provide adjustments to
36:40
students without any
36:41
SPEAKER_00: formal diagnosis and without any permission from guardians.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: This is the part that raised concerns for me.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: And it does on two levels.
36:50
Because I've worked where I've had students where for family
36:54
reasons or cultural
36:55
SPEAKER_00: reasons,
36:56
SPEAKER_00: the families,
36:57
there's a student who does have an additional learning need
36:59
really obviously.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: And I say does knowing that I'm not qualified to diagnose it.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: But we've got students where we would go,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: we're fairly sure you have an additional learning need.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: But the families won't get it diagnosed for whatever reason.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: And that means that students are at a disadvantage.
37:13
So as a teacher,
37:13
I love to have the power to be able to apply adjustments and
37:17
supports.
37:18
The concern that I have here is when we just allow teachers to
37:21
go out and make
37:22
SPEAKER_00: those decisions,
37:24
you're then providing adjustments that you don't have to
37:26
necessarily inform the
37:27
SPEAKER_00: families of.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: You can do that.
37:29
You can be submitting these adjustments as part of the evidence
37:32
for this NCCD or
37:34
SPEAKER_00: consistent collection of data that's not very consistent.
37:37
You can go through and you can just apply adjustments to
37:40
someone who's not an
37:40
SPEAKER_00: expert in the field.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: Which I feel like has the risk of,
37:45
SPEAKER_00: as a teacher,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: me deciding to make my own life easier by going,
37:49
SPEAKER_00: oh,
37:50
I've got my student over here in the front row who doesn't
37:53
really know how to do
37:53
SPEAKER_00: this content,
37:54
so I'll give this student an easier task so that I don't have
37:58
to bother putting in
37:59
SPEAKER_00: place all those scaffolds to build them up.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: I think those are my...
38:04
Those are the main sort of concerns that I've got is a student
38:07
doesn't need a
38:08
SPEAKER_00: medical diagnosis.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: They don't need family permission.
38:12
And you can go through and you can apply adjustments just as
38:16
much as you feel like.
38:19
SPEAKER_02: This is the real risk to all of this, Katie.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: We all know that sometimes, you know, you'd have a group of kids.
38:27
Say you have ability grouping,
38:28
you have a more advanced group,
38:29
you have a less advanced group.
38:31
Well,
38:31
that less advanced group,
38:32
often it doesn't have the head of department teaching them.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: Often it's a graduate teacher or a CRT.
38:38
And you'll walk in and maybe they'll be making a poster because
38:41
the teacher knows
38:43
SPEAKER_02: that that will keep them busy,
38:45
SPEAKER_02: will mean that they won't misbehave.
38:47
And there's no way now that those kids in that class making a
38:51
poster are going to
38:52
SPEAKER_02: catch the kids in the advanced class who are,
38:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:56
SPEAKER_02: learning physics or something.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's the same if they're in the same classroom.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: If you do that,
39:01
SPEAKER_02: if you're given permission to just let these guys make a poster,
39:06
SPEAKER_02: that'll keep them busy and they won't misbehave.
39:09
SPEAKER_02: And it lowers expectations.
39:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm very clear.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: There's two things that I'm very clear on.
39:17
SPEAKER_02: relevant to what you just said.
39:19
First of all,
39:19
everyone should get the same curriculum and it's about the
39:22
scaffolding.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: That's where the differentiation, if we're going to call it that, sits.
39:27
Because we don't change our curriculum and lower our
39:30
expectations of people.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean...
39:32
SPEAKER_02: There are some extremes,
39:33
SPEAKER_02: you know,
39:33
there's a very small percentage of the population that will
39:35
never learn to read.
39:36
SPEAKER_02: So you don't sit them in a year eight literature class.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: But that's a very small number of people.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: And generally, kids should get the same curriculum.
39:49
And the other thing that I don't believe in is what you're
39:52
referring to is
39:53
SPEAKER_02: imputing,
39:54
SPEAKER_02: I think,
39:55
SPEAKER_02: or inferring or imputing.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
39:57
But it's something you're allowed to do where a kid has not got
40:00
a diagnosed diagnosis.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: disability or disorder or need.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: But you as a teacher say, well, I reckon they have.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of that goes into the NCCD.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of schools put these imputed needs in the NCCD.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: We don't do that.
40:20
SPEAKER_02: I reckon there's a lot of kids at my school who...
40:24
in a different context,
40:25
would get a diagnosis,
40:27
particularly neurodiversity.
40:30
But because we teach explicitly and because we have lots of
40:33
routines and processes,
40:36
SPEAKER_02: it's just not a problem for them in our context.
40:40
SPEAKER_02: So we could say, well, this kid to me strikes me as being neurodiverse.
40:45
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to impute a need and put it in there.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: But what purpose does that serve?
40:49
SPEAKER_02: How does that help the kid if they're going fine?
40:53
SPEAKER_02: What's
40:53
And they're not going to get extra resource because we're not
40:56
at that level.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: What is the use of attracting a label?
41:01
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
41:02
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I think you're on the money.
41:08
The risk with all of this really boils down to a lowering of
41:12
expectations for certain kids.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it absolutely is.
41:17
SPEAKER_00: Look,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: I've written about this in the last week,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: spoken about,
41:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:22
SPEAKER_00: ability-based streaming or grouping for instructional setting,
41:25
SPEAKER_00: whatever you want to call it.
41:26
And it's anything where you're giving different students
41:29
different curriculum is risky.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: And in fact,
41:32
I'm actually going to go a step further and say anything where
41:34
you don't have a
41:35
SPEAKER_00: really clearly defined curriculum is
41:39
And it's sort of the point that I make is if you don't have a
41:43
consistent way of
41:44
SPEAKER_00: saying,
41:45
SPEAKER_00: I know that every teacher in this team is going to teach X,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Y,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: Z,
41:48
SPEAKER_00: then you run the risk of teachers making choices that do involve them,
41:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:53
SPEAKER_00: teaching down to students who don't deserve it.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: You involve them not exposing.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: I say, you know, we take our students who need the most support.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: We often,
42:02
SPEAKER_00: we group them together and then we,
42:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: don't expose them to all of the curriculum.
42:07
So the students who would need the most exposure to everything
42:10
that we're doing...
42:12
SPEAKER_00: We just lower the task expectations and go,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
42:15
but like why is the gap widening between our earliest learners
42:18
and our learners who
42:19
SPEAKER_00: are further along in their development?
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Because the ones who needed the most support,
42:24
SPEAKER_00: you didn't even show them all of the core basic content.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: It's illogical.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:31
SPEAKER_02: And look, there is a stereotype as well, but it's based on reality.
42:36
You've got the teacher who maybe they teach history,
42:39
but that's the least part of what they do.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: They are a character.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: They are into having great relationships.
42:47
SPEAKER_02: They coach sport.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: That's a hero teacher.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but they're not particularly into curriculum development.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: And it's their unit and someone says, oh, could you work on this unit?
42:56
SPEAKER_02: And you see a plan for watching a video for three lessons.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's what appears.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, just some sort of generic...
43:06
SPEAKER_02: investigation poster that they're going to make over four.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: And people will make those decisions.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: And if you don't have a very clear,
43:15
SPEAKER_02: well-defined curriculum with some accountability around it,
43:19
SPEAKER_02: people will make poor decisions.
43:20
SPEAKER_02: And it's not the people who are to blame for that.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: It's the systems.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: People will respond.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: It's like kids.
43:28
SPEAKER_02: And kids are many people, aren't they?
43:31
SPEAKER_02: We're all the same, really.
43:33
SPEAKER_02: But we often attribute to,
43:36
Internal property of the kid,
43:38
like,
43:38
oh,
43:39
they're badly behaved,
43:40
that student.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: That's sort of a property of them.
43:43
SPEAKER_02: It's not.
43:44
SPEAKER_02: Usually, it's the circumstance we put them in.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: It's the situation,
43:48
SPEAKER_02: the antecedents that we put around them that are leading to that,
43:52
SPEAKER_02: a combination of things.
43:53
SPEAKER_02: And it's the same property.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: it's the same with teachers.
43:55
If we don't have a very clear idea of what we're doing and why
43:59
we're doing it and a
44:01
SPEAKER_02: measure that we're going to be held accountable for,
44:04
SPEAKER_02: like in a nice way,
44:06
SPEAKER_02: not in a,
44:07
SPEAKER_02: you're going to get the sack if you don't get 58% or whatever,
44:11
SPEAKER_02: in a reasonable and fair way.
44:13
But if there's not some sort of accountability around it,
44:15
we can make poor choices.
44:17
SPEAKER_02: And differentiation, unfortunately, is a license to make poor choices.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: I think it's... Sorry, you go.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: No, go on.
44:26
SPEAKER_02: I just wondered whether you wanted to talk about this last one briefly.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: We've got a few minutes.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, let's jump into that one.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
44:38
So this is revealed hundreds of school leavers with ATARs of
44:44
less than 50 offered
44:46
SPEAKER_02: teaching spots.
44:47
SPEAKER_02: And it's a news article by Sally Rawston in the Sydney Morning Herald.
44:52
SPEAKER_02: Now,
44:52
SPEAKER_02: of course,
44:53
SPEAKER_02: ATAR needs a bit of explanation because unless you are in Australia,
44:58
SPEAKER_02: it means nothing at all.
44:59
SPEAKER_02: It's the Australian Tertiary Admissions Ranking.
45:02
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so...
45:04
SPEAKER_02: What's that?
45:05
The Australian tertiary admissions ranking,
45:07
it is a percentile and it is a rank percentile.
45:12
SPEAKER_02: So if you have an ATAR of 90, you are in the top 10%.
45:17
SPEAKER_02: If you have an ATAR of 80, you are in the top 20%.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: 10% of what, you may ask?
45:22
SPEAKER_02: Well, this is where it all gets a bit hocus pocus.
45:25
So you start secondary school with a whole cohort of
45:28
Australians in year seven.
45:31
And if you're in the 90th percentile,
45:35
you're in the top 10% of all of those kids.
45:39
SPEAKER_02: But...
45:40
SPEAKER_02: A lot of those kids don't go to university and they don't sit any exams.
45:44
So how do you know that you're in the top 10% of these kids if
45:49
these other ones
45:50
SPEAKER_02: don't sit any exams?
45:51
SPEAKER_02: That's the hocus-pocus bit.
45:52
SPEAKER_02: I'm not quite sure how the statisticians do it,
45:56
SPEAKER_02: but essentially that's what they're trying to do.
45:57
So essentially the ATAR you...
46:01
So the other thing that probably needs to be explained for...
46:04
SPEAKER_02: people outside Australia,
46:06
SPEAKER_02: is at the end of year 12,
46:07
SPEAKER_02: unlike in the US,
46:08
where I think kids just get grades from their individual
46:12
subject teachers.
46:13
SPEAKER_02: In Australia, you get an exam.
46:14
If you want to go to university,
46:16
you do these VCE subjects and you sit an exam in each subject.
46:20
SPEAKER_02: In each of those subjects, you get a score.
46:23
And then these scores are fed into this big sausage machine and
46:26
out pops...
46:27
SPEAKER_02: Out pops the ATAR.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: So the ATAR,
46:30
SPEAKER_02: so again,
46:31
SPEAKER_02: 90,
46:32
SPEAKER_02: you're in the top 10%,
46:33
SPEAKER_02: supposedly,
46:34
SPEAKER_02: of everyone that started secondary school with you.
46:35
SPEAKER_02: 80, you're in the top 20%.
46:37
SPEAKER_02: 70, you're in the top 30%, and so on.
46:40
SPEAKER_02: That's the context to some of the figures in the piece by Sally Rolstone.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: So I'll just...
46:48
SPEAKER_02: feed you some of those.
46:49
So university admissions data released by the federal
46:51
government showed that 499
46:53
SPEAKER_02: students who achieved between zero and 50,
46:57
SPEAKER_02: so bottom half,
47:00
SPEAKER_02: were offered an undergraduate teaching place in 2025.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: Now, bear in mind that a lot of kids don't go to university.
47:08
SPEAKER_02: And so the bottom half has got to include those kids in it.
47:15
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, that's kind of worrying.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: But this is not a new thing.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: So what was it?
47:23
SPEAKER_02: A decade ago,
47:23
there were 562 school leavers with an ATAR between zero and 50
47:28
who were offered
47:29
SPEAKER_02: teaching places.
47:30
SPEAKER_02: And it dropped so that quite recently it was, what was it?
47:37
SPEAKER_00: It was 226 in 2019.
47:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:40
SPEAKER_02: So it dropped.
47:41
SPEAKER_02: So people were concerned about it.
47:43
SPEAKER_02: There's a bit of pressure put on universities and it dropped,
47:46
SPEAKER_02: but it seems to be creeping back up again.
47:48
And this is because I think it's quite attractive course for
47:53
universities to offer
47:54
SPEAKER_02: teaching because most of it takes place outside of the university.
47:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:58
I think that it's a good value proposition for the university
48:04
to offer teaching courses.
48:05
SPEAKER_02: And so you end up with people with these low ATRs doing it.
48:09
SPEAKER_02: However,
48:09
the average for teaching student across the country was 71
48:15
compared to 78 for the
48:16
SPEAKER_02: average ATR of all university students.
48:18
SPEAKER_02: So when you read that statistic, it doesn't seem quite as bad.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: But...
48:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what do you think of this?
48:27
SPEAKER_02: 500 people starting teaching with an ATAR below 50?
48:30
SPEAKER_00: I think it's worrying.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't understand the rationale behind it.
48:37
And I know that it's been suggested it could be because we do
48:42
have a teacher shortage here.
48:43
I don't know that getting 500 people around the country with
48:47
ATARs below 50,
48:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that's necessarily going to fix this problem either.
48:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: I think it just worries me that,
48:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:55
SPEAKER_00: you're in a profession where your job is so important for,
49:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:00
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
49:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say for the futures of young people.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Your job is so important for that.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: But you didn't have,
49:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:08
SPEAKER_00: you didn't have that sort of,
49:10
I'm going to say academic baseline for whatever reason to be
49:14
able to do this
49:15
SPEAKER_00: yourself.
49:15
SPEAKER_00: How are you meant to guide young people in doing that?
49:19
SPEAKER_00: It just, it doesn't.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: For me, it feels like a career where it is very academic.
49:26
I feel like I need a really strong knowledge basis for me to
49:29
come in and be able to
49:30
SPEAKER_00: do my job effectively.
49:32
But the ATARs that we're allowing students into courses to be
49:36
able to do teaching,
49:38
SPEAKER_00: they don't suggest that same thing.
49:41
No,
49:41
and it raises questions like how many of these people finish
49:46
the teaching degree?
49:48
I mean,
49:48
do many of them get to a school and think,
49:50
well,
49:50
this is not for me?
49:52
SPEAKER_02: Like, are they funneling into particular areas that maybe, I don't know.
49:59
SPEAKER_02: And the other thing we also probably ought to mention, eight are,
50:06
SPEAKER_02: You only need an ATAR if you go directly into teaching from – sorry,
50:10
SPEAKER_02: directly into a teaching degree,
50:13
SPEAKER_02: university from school.
50:14
If you go out and work in industry for five years and decide
50:17
you want to go back to
50:18
SPEAKER_02: university,
50:18
SPEAKER_02: you don't need an ATAR.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: It's a completely different system.
50:21
SPEAKER_02: And quite a few teachers will do that.
50:24
SPEAKER_02: So –
50:24
SPEAKER_02: Quite a few teachers will, yeah, they'll come into the profession later.
50:29
SPEAKER_02: Or they might get an A to go to university and do,
50:31
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
50:31
SPEAKER_02: science or something,
50:32
SPEAKER_02: then go away and do research and then later do a teaching degree.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about a specific...
50:40
SPEAKER_02: slice of the teaching workforce here.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: Not necessarily everyone who goes into teaching,
50:45
SPEAKER_02: but still,
50:45
SPEAKER_02: it does make you wonder,
50:48
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
50:51
SPEAKER_02: is it a prestigious profession?
50:55
SPEAKER_02: These are the sort of questions that are raised.
50:57
SPEAKER_02: And it does make you,
50:59
it makes me concerned for the people with the low ATARs who are
51:03
going into teaching
51:04
SPEAKER_02: and whether they,
51:05
SPEAKER_02: because they're paying money for these courses and they're taking out
51:09
SPEAKER_02: They're going to have to pay that back in years to come.
51:13
SPEAKER_02: How successful are they?
51:14
SPEAKER_02: And that's probably what I'd like to see some more information on.
51:16
SPEAKER_02: But it doesn't seem like a good thing.
51:19
And certainly the fact that there was a lot of pressure to
51:22
reduce the number of low
51:24
SPEAKER_02: ATAR entrants into the profession,
51:26
SPEAKER_02: and now we've kind of bounced back,
51:28
that implies that the sector as a whole recognizes it's a bit
51:32
of an issue.
51:33
I,
51:34
you know,
51:34
for interest,
51:35
I actually had,
51:36
it was,
51:37
it was not one of my lecturers.
51:38
I had a lecturer at a uni when I was doing my teaching degree
51:42
speak to me about,
51:43
SPEAKER_00: in my teaching degree,
51:44
SPEAKER_00: it won't surprise you.
51:45
I got really invested in the research and I was sort of
51:48
fangirling swellers work a
51:50
SPEAKER_00: little bit,
51:50
but I got really invested in that and I was working really hard
51:54
on my uni and
51:54
SPEAKER_00: working really hard on my results.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: But
51:56
SPEAKER_00: I had this lecturer come and speak to me and say,
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Katie,
51:59
SPEAKER_00: that's really great for you that you're working really hard,
52:01
but you're not going to be a good teacher because good teachers
52:03
don't get good
52:04
SPEAKER_00: academic results in uni.
52:06
SPEAKER_00: And had this conversation with me.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: I can see your face right now.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
52:11
SPEAKER_00: I'll have you know,
52:12
I did get good academic results and I'm not going to comment on
52:16
the quality of my
52:16
SPEAKER_00: teaching.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: You've seen it.
52:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
52:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's bizarre, isn't it?
52:22
I think that there's some research from the US that having a
52:26
master's degree
52:27
SPEAKER_02: doesn't make you a better teacher.
52:29
SPEAKER_02: But I think that just tells you about education master's degrees, really.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: That's a conversation about teacher education, right?
52:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: So,
52:37
SPEAKER_02: and I think,
52:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
52:39
so there is the relationship between teacher knowledge and
52:44
teaching ability is
52:45
SPEAKER_02: complex.
52:46
SPEAKER_02: It's not straightforward,
52:47
SPEAKER_02: like the best physicists become the best physics teachers,
52:50
because there are aspects to teaching that aren't just about
52:53
doing the physics.
52:53
There are interpersonal aspects,
52:56
there are classroom management aspects,
52:58
but you...
52:59
SPEAKER_02: They're not completely unrelated.
53:01
SPEAKER_02: Like a good physics teacher will know what they're on about.
53:05
SPEAKER_02: You can't completely disconnect those two things.
53:10
SPEAKER_00: No, not at all.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: I've said in the last couple of days,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: if you threw me into,
53:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:15
SPEAKER_00: whether it was a PE classroom or a,
53:17
SPEAKER_00: I did say,
53:18
SPEAKER_00: if you threw me into sort of a manual arts or woodworking classroom,
53:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be the expert in that room.
53:23
And it doesn't matter how much I know about cognitive science
53:26
or teaching,
53:26
SPEAKER_00: and it doesn't matter what resources you give me.
53:29
I'm not going to be the expert in that room because I don't
53:32
have the background
53:33
SPEAKER_00: knowledge to support that.
53:34
SPEAKER_00: So it's necessary, but
53:37
to what extent when you then couple it with everything else
53:46
we'll finish up there
53:47
look thank you greg as always if anyone's listening and you've
53:51
got a great idea for
53:52
an article a podcast an opinion piece that you would like us to
53:55
cover please drop
53:57
SPEAKER_00: it into the comments all of our socials are in the show notes
54:07
Bye.